Most People Wait Too Long to Change Their Life - Bill Gurley

What got you into thinking about the idea of career regret as somebody that's had a very seemingly successful and fun career? Why did you think about it? >> I um I used to so I spent 25 years as a venture capitalist and the four years before that as a sellside analyst on Wall Street and through that process I started writing as a way to differentiate myself and so I was a early blogger. It was actually a fact that's how old I am um when I started and I got in the habit of when I had ideas jotting them down and then you know either developing them a lot of them ended up just undeveloped but I would if I developed them they would become a blog post and there was a period in my career where I was reading a ton of biographies and I finished this third one and saw a through line with these other two from people that were in wildly different fields and I jotted those notes down and that thing kind of simmerred and breathed and and took on a little bit of a life and I got asked by the dean of the business school here in Austin at the University of Texas to talk to the NBA class one day and I was like, "Can I do this?" And he said, "Sure." So, I pulled it out and developed it a little bit as a PowerPoint presentation. Um, anyway, they posted that on YouTube. A few people noticed, some people that have been on your show, James Clear noticed >> and he posted it on his website and people started proddding me to develop it as a book. And um a few years ago, I decided to begin retirement as a venture capitalist. It actually takes a while unfortunately. And in that window, I thought about doing this. I thought about doing a book. And a lot of people wanted me to do a book. A lot of people wanted me to do a VC book or an investment book or a tell- all book on the Uber experience. [clears throat] >> And I was more drawn to this idea. >> Um, and a few other people prodded me who said, you know, like go go do and it felt more authentic. It felt like something that could have a bigger impact. >> And I was drawn to that at this moment in my life. I was drawn to this particular thing. So I spent like six years uh working with a coowwriter and researcher developing and developing it further and making it this way. But you use the word regret. We did along the way I launched a survey on survey monkey that said if you could go back and start over would you would you do a different career? And seven out of 10 people said yes. And I eventually took that to Wharton and people analytics and they did a more scientific version of it much broader audience and came back six out of 10 but very [clears throat] similar. Um and that notion of career regrets interesting. I had the opportunity to talk to Daniel Pink who you may know who wrote >> been on the show about regret >> about regret and in that book he says the biggest regrets people have and and and he showed me a graph. It actually gets worse as you get older towards end of life are regrets of inaction. He calls them boldness regrets. It's what you didn't do. >> Like humans are great at forgiving themselves. Made a mistake, learned from it, won't do it again. but they ruminate about what they didn't try. And so I, you know, I I've thought about this long and hard now since I've been working on it for six years. I fear our current education path has become a bit of a conveyor belt. People like that you we're pushing these children into this meat grinder and um and we're pushing them towards jobs that are, you know, typically called safe jobs, at least before AI. And um I think they're learning to grind. That's what Angela Duckworth's been saying now. You know, the perseverance part we've taught them. But if they don't have the love for it, it turns into burnout. And so the purpose of this book that I wrote is hopefully to give as as many people permission to go do what they want in life, you know. And and look, I'm sure it won't touch everybody, but if there's a subgroup of people who read this and have the conviction that they can go succeed in this thing they love, I think that'll be a huge impact on the world. Like I think the people that do that are the people, you know, these people like that are just love what they do. And not only are they more successful, but I think they radiate a bit, you know, and spread positive energy. >> Well, they're matic as well. They become a role model for other people. That's right. Go and do, oh, I he took a chance on that thing that he wanted to do and wow, it didn't work out and his life didn't blow up or it did work out and he's really happy. >> That's right. >> Um, thinking about the fact that we seem to regret in action, boldness, regret. >> Yeah. Have you reflected on why you think that is? what it is in the the human mind that causes us to prefer decisiveness over uh >> I was hoping to bring up one of the many biases I've read about in all the behavioral science books, but I I'm going to go to a different place, which is I think we ruminate a lot like like our brains, you know, constantly are are replaying things in our minds. Um, and maybe that's what dreaming is too. But I think because of that, it's very easy to imagine these whatifs like it's to build a story, especially a positive story around the what if I that didn't get done. And then you compare that to your current life. And unfortunately, that can create anxiety, but I do think that might be part of it. >> You'll be familiar with the zygic effect. >> I'm not. Tell me. >> Oh, cool. So, um, there was a psychologist who began studying waiting staff and they realized that these waiting staff had unbelievable recall while the tables were still open. >> You know, you've ever been to a restaurant and you see some weight waiter come up and they're stood, no pen, no pad, no iPad, hands behind their back and you go, "This guy's crazy. Like, he's insane. I'm definitely going to get something wrong." And sometimes you might go, I'm going to we'll take the sprouts, but I uh extra bacon uh no no goats cheese, but you want to just see if if all right, it's a no no pad. >> Yeah. >> And uh the study ended up finding out uh the zygic effect, which is an openloop closed loop bias that exists inside of the human mind. Um while the tables were still open, the servers were able to recall what the orders were very closely. And as soon as they went that you nothing at all. You know a perfect example in almost everybody's life with this. I'm quite bad at this actually but it still holds true hotel rooms. Let's say that you're moving from city to city to city. You're not bad at remembering the hotel room of where you are now. Yeah. >> But if I was to say where did you which hotel room did you stay in two hotels ago? I 735. I don't I have no idea. Um, it's the same reason why cliffhers work at the end of uh TV shows to get you to watch the next one. >> Yes. Yes. >> The open loop, the the human mind abhords an open loop. >> Yeah. >> And >> I get the sense that >> I see what you're saying. >> When it comes to boldness, regret, the main thing that you have is an open loop. Yeah. >> Now the human mind abhors open loops and uncertainty and ambiguity so much that we'd rather imagine a catastrophe than uh deal with the uncertainty. That's what a lot of anxiety sort of future projected regret kind of is, right? I don't know what's going to happen. So I'll imagine the worst thing and at least for a moment I have certainty even if the certainty is horrible. >> And uh this is the same thing I think in some regards but in reverse. What could have happened? Yeah. >> What could I have done? And there's there's an interesting way to flip it on its head. When Jeff Bezos was trying to convince himself to go start Amazon, he had this incredible job at De Shaw and David Shaw didn't want him to leave. So, he was trying to talk him out of going. And Bezos has this thing. It's on YouTube. You can go watch it, but he he um he self-proclaimed. It was very nerdy, but he called it the regret minimization framework. and he just imagined he's 80 years old and was trying to get advice from his 80-year-old self about what to do. So, he like put himself in that future place where he might have that that boldness regret. And in my own career, um people I I had two different um jobs I started and then switched before I got into venture capital, which was definitely my dream job. And in both of those cases, a couple years in, I paused and reflected, and I only thought about this as I've been um promoting the book. I paused and reflected, do I want to do this for 30 years? And was able to like fast forward that in my brain and I was unhappy with that reflection, >> which encouraged me to to think about what's next. when it comes to the regret minimization framework, which I love and I kind of can't believe isn't bigger. I'm aware it is among people that read the sort of stuff that you do or maybe I do, but >> uh it is a really wonderful idea and um I guess Jeff's got other stuff that he can be well known for. So perhaps, you know, >> well, it's it's actually quite synonymous with the uh the uh one of the seven habits of highly effective people begin with the end in mind. M >> it has a it has a similar kind of >> when looking at the regret minimization framework what are the things that >> what are the common pitfalls that you've seen people do even both inside of their career and outside of it you must have reflected on this a lot >> yeah I have one one thing that I think I especially with with the modern young people I think one problem that I think exists because we've built this I call it in my book a conveyor belt Jonathan height called it a regret or a I'm sorry a resume arms race. We've built this this this pipeline for these kids that's so intense. I think when they get to their first job, they feel like it's the result of all this investment and they feel like tweaking any way away from that is is is throwing away the investment. Does that make sense? >> Like a loss aversion type thing. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I invested all of this to get to this college to get to this degree and if I move away from that did I just waste all that time >> and um you know this is despite the fact that in in there's a lot of of studies that have been done like I won't get the numbers exactly right but like five years after college 40% of people are no longer working in the field that was their major >> and that number gets bigger at 10 but I but it doesn't mean that they don't feel trapped or that that number might not be higher if they didn't feel trapped. >> And when I mention this to young people that there there is this weight there is this weight they feel >> like an obligation to to especially >> decisions that they locked in when they were 17. >> Yes. Well, and that's another thing in when when I was younger, the colleges wouldn't let you declare a major until the end of your sophomore year. many schools you have to apply to the major now. So we've moved the decision of what major are you going to pick from the end of your sophomore year to the end of your junior year in high school. like that's, you know, three years forward and less time to there's a lot of people um a lot of smart people that just say we we don't allow children enough time to explore y and you know height says it he has a chapter called let them or the loss of play or something um Rick Rubin's been pounding on this he talks about it in his >> we looked at Gene Twangi's work generations >> does is that another one >> yeah So, generations is is really fascinating. This stinks of you. Highly recommend it. You really >> Okay, I will. I will. >> Um, and she talks about extended adolescence. Yeah. Sort of twins with some of Heidi's stuff. You've got a real interesting duality going on, which is in one world, >> you've got these kids that are sort of being forced to become adults more quickly. Yes. >> Than ever before, where we expect you to know what you potentially the set of railroad tracks for the rest of your life, the next 30 years of your career. and you're only 17 and you got to know and apply. And then at the same time, kids are moving out of the house later. They're getting their driver's licenses later. They're getting employment later. They're getting into relationships at lower rates. Less alcohol, less casual. All of the things that we would have typically associated with being an adult are not present as we're trying to force structural adulthood onto them. was socially very immature, professionally expedited, >> and he ties them together. It's just because >> Jean Gene Twangi. Yeah, for sure. I think that Oh, actually, no, no, no, no, no. >> Great point. And I don't know, and I don't think so. Um, now there might be some rebellion going on that ah god, like everything just feels like I I need to get my act together. I how can I do these other things? I just so much of my cognitive real estate is taken up. >> I could see that. >> Maybe that would be a compensator, read. Yeah. Um, like I I mentioned, I think uh when when about 10 years after Duckworth wrote Grit, she said that she wished she had positioned it as 50/50 passion and perseverance. And she if she could do it again, she'd put more on the passion because she thinks we taught a whole generation of of the high performer children how to grind. >> Like we taught them to persevere, which is >> Well, and so I get that. I grit was a massive book. I don't think that she should lay at the feet of her pen the the the issues of this stuff, but I think one of the reasons why from a personal development standpoint it makes it's a bit more seductive to overindex on the perseverance than the passion is that passion feels more difficult to engineer. >> Fair enough. >> Uh so, oh, how do I get the thing, the line, the stuff right? It feels a bit more egalitarian. >> Yes. to say no matter what it is you're doing if you hold hard enough you can get through >> I do think it is the hardest question >> what is >> finding it like finding it and knowing it you know knowing it's a little easier but finding there are a lot of 17year-olds who appropriately if you ask them what is your passion what do you want to do they appropriately say I don't know >> because it's the truth they don't know >> but I think that's okay it's just we shouldn't force the question upon You've got this line, life is a use it or lose it proposition. >> Yeah. >> What's that mean? >> Well, I mean, it's tied to the the the the boldness regret, right? Like you're going to get to the end and and then it's done. And and only if you think in the way that Bezos did um with his regret minimization framework are you going to hold yourself accountable um for that line. you know that the the recognition that that life moves much faster than any of us realize and then it's done and and and you can get locked in even sooner if you spend up to your limits. You can you can you can freeze yourself in a job like that you can't leave and you can do it with personal commitments as well. I my my second career was, you know, going to Wall Street and I can't tell you the number of people I worked in with Wall Street that had for their age ridiculously high salaries, but they had to place in the Hamptons, the summer lease, like they tried to get into the membership club. Like they spent right up to the limit and now you can't switch, >> you know? You can't switch. >> Yeah. You're locked in at this very high burn rate, which means you need to keep pouring fuel in the top of it. >> Yes. Yes. I I have like for young adults that are lucky enough to have a job with a decent salary. I would heavily encourage them not to spend against it just so they can have the flexibility to do other things. Move cities, change jobs. >> Um all of which may be the right path for them. >> We'll get back to talking in just one second, but first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in your energy, your focus, and your performance. But most people have no idea where theirs are or what to do if something's off. Which is why I partnered with Function because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to actually understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, they run lab tests that monitor over a 100 biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan. 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Yeah. >> So, um I've always thought about this the difference between hidden and observable metrics. >> Yeah. >> We'll often trade a hidden metric for an observable one. >> Sure. >> You know, trade the quality of our sleep for a slightly bigger pay packet. >> We'll trade the hours of uh peace that we have on a Saturday. Yeah. >> For uh position uh improvement. will trade go. I mean, you know, some people will trade a caring, supportive wife for a very difficult, younger, hot one. Um, you know, the the the trades are everywhere. >> Yes. I I I think that's a good framing. >> Mhm. So, is many people, especially people who maybe aren't so fired up with their jobs and their careers, might think, I can get my fulfillment elsewhere. Why why why should I care about my my career is just the it's just the thing that I do from 9 to5 or whatever 8 to 4 every day. Uh why why should I try and optimize that? Is is being fulfilled at work a luxury? Um, I guess what I would say is I have a immense amount of respect for someone who adopts that mindset, the one you described, especially if they're really thriving in something that may not may they may not perceive to be an occupation. That could be a religious community. It could be volunteer work that they do. Um, I would highlight to them there might be a career in that, you know, like if they wanted to be around it all the time, but my main goal isn't to tell those people they aren't being successful. Like if they're happy and passionate about that lifestyle, like that's great. I'm not I'm not casting any any shadow on that whatsoever. Um, if you are the type of person that is either unhappy with your work, like so much so that it's impacting your quality of life, or even better, if you're someone that has this inkling, this little notion in their brain, but maybe doesn't have the confidence or the permission, they don't feel like they have the permission to go do it. That's who I want to read my book. Like, that's who I really really want to read my book. Um, there's this there's a there's a great story that there's a couple of these actually, but I I'll I'll I'll choose the Steve Harvey one. There's a there I don't know if you've seen this, but you know who Steve Harvey is, the comedian who does the talk does Family Feud now. >> Yep. >> Um, he tells this story did I think he told it on Oprah that when he was seven, the teacher asked them to for as an exercise to write down a sheet of paper what they wanted to be when they grew up. and he he claims he got called last and he teacher said said but the others she read but for his the teacher made him come to the front of the room and [snorts] read it out loud and apparently he had a stuttering problem but he it said I want to be on TV and she thought he was like not taking the the the exercise seriously and she condemned him for writing that so much so that she called her his mother and he got in trouble when he got home. So, he got sent to his room. He's worried that his dad's going to come in there and read him the riot act. And his dad comes in and sits next to him. Here's the whole story. And he says, "Here's what we're going to do. Let's take that piece of paper and put it right here in your bedstand. And I want you to read it every single day." And and you hear a story like that, you know, and I don't think there there's a lot of people I think that that's a very hard thing to do. I think that for parents and I I'm a parent of three and I've lived through this phase that we're talking about your intuition as a parent like that some in your DNA somewhere is to look after the economic welfare of this child you want them to live a good life and it's very hard not to associate that mostly with money >> and so this thing that Steve Harvey's dad did for him I think is kind of a really like a very unique thing. I think it's very hard to do and and I hear a story McConnA has a very similar story about when he switched from law school to film school. His dad told him, "Well, don't halfass it." And he like he said that was the last thing he he thought his dad was going to yell at him and his dad kind of gave him like this push. And that's what I want the book to do. Like if someone has that inkling that they want to go do something that the world may not think they're capable of or think they should do, I I I'd love to unlock this latent human potential. >> You know what it comes back to? It's quantifiable observant observable and hidden metrics. Again, the the observable metric of financially free. This is how much they earn. This is the track that they would be on. Hidden metric, how passionate are they? Are they happy when they're 35? >> Yeah. Uh so I guess one of the situations that so many people must be in is someone one version of them successfully pivots and another version of them stays stuck for life. >> Yeah. >> Why does some people successfully pivot and and and others end up getting stuck? >> Well, I mean there's a there's you could come up with a number of things. One of them is financial, which we've we've talked about. You could be overspending. There's a there's a different case where you're just you're you're stuck financially like you need you're living handtomouth. Um there's a I have a I have a profile in the book of Jen Atkin who I don't know if you know she is probably the mo most successful hair stylist of all time like went not only achieved touched the top rail of that but then launched beauty products sold that company but she moved to LA with $300 in her pocket. And that's not to say anyone can do that, but like there there are stories of people with near nothing starting on the very bottom rung and finding their way to be successful. There's this classic meme of starting in the mail room in Hollywood and David Geffen and and Barry Dillard, all these people started in the mail room. You know, it's it's about as low a rung as you have in that business. So, I I think it's possible, but you may feel stuck >> financially. you may feel that you can't get there. Um, and then the other one, you know, it it could be like this perception MCA had this perception that his father wanted him to be a lawyer. It's probably just that Matthew had told him he was going to be a lawyer and he was supporting that. But but that weight can be there too. like you may feel I think there are certain um there are certain uh cultures where where like being a doctor is considered really in Russia like being an academic was so you may you may feel pressure from your family as this is the thing people in my family do and I've seen that and I've met people who have that weight upon them those are all kind of things that could restrict this movement >> what about the fear I there has to be a huge chunk chunk of people that just I what if this doesn't work? It's sort of ambient. Yes. >> Ephemeral this fugue fog thing that's come down on them. But but if you if you'll allow me like to give you a little history of how um or why I would say I spent I spent six years turning the uh the original presentation into a book and I I I had this thing I really wanted to achieve which was to embed as much stories and narrative into it as possible. And um I was listening I know you've had Morgan on how >> he's the absolute goat. and he was on um he [snorts] was on a podcast called Why We Write talking about >> David Pearl >> the power of of narrative. >> Yeah. >> And so the book is divided it's structured unlike most books. It's divided into two parts but they interle and so every other chapter is a Atlantic size article about someone that started on the bottom rung with intention and made it to the top. And the reason I wanted to include those is precisely for the reason Morgan talks about which is I think these things stick in your brain more like a lot of the books in the category that have done extremely well in career um read like a textbook do a do a do b then do c they don't have this kind of spirituality to them that I think can infect the brain a little bit more does that make sense >> it's 100% correct I mean Ben Shapiro 's favorite famous line of facts don't care about your feelings is as backward as it could be that feelings don't give a single [ __ ] about the fact. >> Yeah. So we have eight nine or 10 I I should know the exact number but I can't recall right now of these profiles and I alternate them with the principles and it's I wasn't thought about it like candy and vegetables you know or something but you get you get some of both and uh >> it brings the ideas to life. >> Yes. And I think this the reason I told that long story was an answer to your question about fear. I think seeing this many stories and they're all I by the way I chose every one of them from a field that your parents would probably tell you not to go into. I intentionally skipped you know investment bankers and and doctors. >> Yeah. All the stuff that everyone knows is is >> nice linear progression. >> Yes. I got I I I have none of those in there >> for this reason because I wanted to help people get past the fear by giving them the uh motivation and the method to do it. >> I hope it works. >> Me, too. Well, you're certainly right about changing people's opinions with beating them over the head with frameworks and justifications. It just it straight up does not stick. >> Yeah. um pathy mantras and quotes and stuff can do they they're a nice compression algorithm I think for bigger things. Um but really what you're optimizing for and this I'd be interested to know if you if you agree with me on this. I think you're optimizing for memorability. >> Yes. And I'm just I just don't think that regardless of how well written, whimsical, insightful something is, it doesn't the the human brain, the keyhole isn't the same. It doesn't retain things quite as easily. Um the apherism and stuff is nice. That's kind of like, you know, the tune from a song. It's the lead melody from a song that you can hold on to. >> But if you give somebody a story, how how are you how are you going to forget that? years ago and I don't know when it started. Actually, I it's funny. I just said I don't know where it started and then something popped in my brain. I fell in love with these long form non-fiction articles. There's a website called Long Reads, >> okay, >> that that has best of and it's a lot of Atlantic stuff, that kind of thing. The thing that popped in my head was there was a New York magazine article. Uh, Suge Knight and and and Snoop and I think Biggie were on the cover of New York Time magazine when I was it was in 93 or 94 and it was 20 pages. That may have been the first one that got me into this. But, uh, but that led me to a book called The New Journalism. And there's another one called the new new journalism about these writers that kind of left the being beat writers on newspapers and started doing this longer form journalism and how it brought stories to life. I think Truman Capot's highlighted in that Tom Wolf put together the first one and then the second one has Crackour and Lewis and like all the modern >> but now we've seen we've seen this pivot into Substack right that that uh people that were previously hardcore journalists have made their entire careers on Substack and then if you're somebody like Barry Weiss you've done this sort of double U-turn thing and loop back on yourself enough and you end up in charge of CBS or Matt Taiibbe and you end up in charge to the Twitter files or whatever. >> I'm a huge Berry fan. >> Uh, so talk to me about the risk of starting over in your 30s or 40s. Yeah. You know, the idea of >> not just what am I going to do, but you know, I should have had my life together by now. Is really, you're telling me I'm going to start again at 37? I'm going to be at the bottom of the pile and I've got all this sunk cost fallacy from before. What are people going to think of me? What what's the real risk of starting again in 30s and 40s? >> Well, what I mean, one thing I would encourage you to do, there was a there was a this book I read when I was really in I think back in business school called Shark Proof by Harvey McKay. He wrote he's known for his sales book, but he wrote a book about careers and he said to keep your dream job. He this was an older book so he said keep it in a Manila folder in a file but you could create it in a Google doc or something that uh where you're just keeping notes like well if I do it one day you know and and and everything you learn people you might talk to I think you just p pile more and more stuff in there and it'll start to feel more real like you can you can begin the process before you make the leap >> right and then the the the second thing I'm going to say three things the second thing I would say is if you have some curiosity that's occupying your downtime, that's a really interesting tell. You know, when I was an engineer, I I got a computer engineering degree and I was working at Compact Computers in Houston. That was a big hot company back in the day. And I was going home at night and I had started I'd learned about stocks and I was trading stocks. You know, I'd read one up on Wall Street. I had this uh I forget what it was called this book. You just get this book with all these one pages on every stock. Like I was that's what I was doing in my spare time. So if you're doing something like that in your spare time like it's calling you, you know. And then the the third thing there's a chapter in the book actually titled Never Too Late. And we list about 20 people that did post 40 pivots and we go deep on four of them. My favorite being local Austinite Bert Beverage. Um Bert's uh nickname is Tito, so that'll that'll tell you who he is. But um seismology degree, undergrad, worked in oil and gas for for several years. Um ended up down in South America where he got frightened by a few experiences. Um so he hung that up out of fear and the boom bust cycle. Became a mortgage broker. um didn't really love it, you know, and not sure he equated his identity to being a mortgage broker. And um one night, [laughter] this is such a like it's part of why I love like self-help books and ideas so much. He's watching a PBS special that says, "Take out a sheet of paper, draw a line down it, and put the stuff you love to do on the left side and the stuff you're good at on the right, and see if you can find a through line." and he's looking at this sheet of paper and realizes he wants to start a spirit company. He's got like chemistry on the right. He's like hanging out at bars on the left. Like and and um he didn't know jack [ __ ] about launching a spirit company. And it turns out Texas is probably the worst place you'd ever at the time there was no one that had a license for a spirit company in Texas. Um, but of course, Titos is now the most bestselling Spirit in North America. He uh owns 100% of it himself. >> No way. The whole thing's bootstrapped. >> Yes. >> Credit card. >> Yeah. 19 credit card. >> [ __ ] you. >> But it's such a great story. Like, it's just such a great story. >> And and and and and now, you know, he's at the phase in his life where he's giving back and launching foundations. And this is my point. Like I say, I had a I had a young person at John Hopkins raise their hand and say, "But I I don't want to chase my passion. I want to be purpose driven." And I I thought to myself, you know, every profile in the book, these people are touching more lives than they could have ever imagined. Like >> I don't want to chase my passion. I want to be purpose driven. >> I think it's part of a new movement to just like feel good about yourself. Like I'm a I'm my my main goal in life is to help other people. >> Serve. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. Well, >> it's like no, it's no, it's noble on the surface and there's certainly some things, you know, in the same way this person has high burn rate, family to support. You don't have the luxury in quite the same way. Um this person, there are some jobs that just suck. Yeah, >> there are some jobs you're serving your country or you know, I'm sure lots of people love street cleaning, but I would imagine that some people do it more out of a sense of service than they do out of a sense of passion. >> Um, >> my only point was these people that are able to climb from the bottom rung to the top and do it in the right way end up touching hundreds and hundreds of lives. >> They're serving in a a much more seamless way that's leveraged as well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean my one of my favorite on that front is I many years ago because I was involved with Open Table I met Danny Meyer and who's the famous restaurant tour in New York that um also built Shake Shack. He has a great book setting the table if people haven't read it. But if you talk to people in the restaurant industry and they worked even for a year at a Danny Meyer restaurant, it's like meaningful to them. like it's on their resume. They talk about it all the time. Like there's almost this church of Danny Meyer like for everyone that rolled through it. That's got to be that's got to just feel amazing. >> What is it about his demeanor or culture or ethos? >> The book talks about this kind of understated sensibility to uh his book to hospitality. um like like just trying to read the room on each and every customer and really understand, you know, what they're what they're trying to optimize and to help them do that as much as possible. >> But his his journey is about more than that. That's what his book's about. >> His journey is about being >> hyper curious and and an excessive learner. like every single step along the way, including today, >> he's still doing it. You know, last time I talked to him, he just got back from Europe, he' taken all his chefs on a tour of Europe together. >> Um, jotting notes, taking learning, like just constant learning. >> That's so cool. >> Which I think is is is it's also that's the second principle of my book is continuous learning, but it ties in with the first one. The best test as to whether you found your passion is does the learning feel like free? Like would you do it instead of watching a TV show? Like is it is it something you enjoy so much that continuous learning is just you enjoying life, >> you [clears throat] know, and if you find that you you found you found it, you found your passion. >> A quick aside, I've been using eight for years and I genuinely can't imagine life without it. Having a mattress that actively cools and heats each side of the bed is a total game changer. And their newest model, the Pod 5, takes things to the next level. 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Right now, you can get up to $350 off the pod 5 by going to the link in the description below by heading to eightsleep.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's ei.com/modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. Joe Hudson's got this line, enjoyment is efficiency, he says. And I think I liked it. >> I think it's really really true. Yeah. that people >> it kind yeah >> people have this relationship between discipline motivation and obsession. Discipline's always there but there's a lot of friction. Motivation the friction gets removed a little bit but it it's it's sort of harder to to grab a hold of. You don't really know where it comes from. Maybe it's a rock playlist or maybe it's the right amount of caffeine or something. >> Uh and obsession is friction inverted as opposed to you having to push through resistance. The resistance pulls you toward it. >> That's exactly right. And the problem I think or the reason that obsession is difficult is that obviously if it's pointed in a nonpositive direction that's how you become obsessed with politics or porn or your toxic ex or something. >> Um but if it's pointed in the right direction what from the outside looks like a superhuman amount of discipline from the inside >> feels almost like you haven't chosen it. You you you know I'm not I'm not choosing to do this thing. You know, I mentioned before we got started, there's not been a single house I've lived in for a decade that I've not turned one of the bedrooms, including most of the ones that I slept in, into a podcast studio for [laughter] a decade. My house back in the UK has got a podcast studio in it. The one that I live in right now is still podcasting. Eight years in, a thousand episodes. Every single house has had every Airbnb that I've stayed in. I get there and I [ __ ] I'm researching hotels to see if the depth of the table can withstand my MacBook, the stand and the and the [ __ ] tripod because >> that's what I want to do. That's what I want to do. I want to have these conversations. So, okay, I I I my entire life gets warped around it. I'm sure you'd be familiar with the uh singleordinating principle. I think Bezos has got one and I think Musk's got one and Bezos's was always does this make the customer experience better? >> Yeah. So everything, every single decision in Amazon was threaded through this sort of single eye needle. And uh >> Musk says, "Does this get us closer to Mars? Does this get us closer?" >> And by the way, both of those people did something that is super extraordinary, which is they took an innovative company, grew it to hundreds of thousands of employees, and kept it innovative. It's it's two of the only examples I know of. >> They didn't get laden down with dis economies of communication and lumber [ __ ] behemoth >> bureaucracy that always lands in big companies and it must be some heruristic like the one you described that allows them. In fact, I well I was just listening to Elon on on Cheeky Pine I think Dash. >> Yeah, this came up. This came up like like every leader wants to know how he does it. That's why I think Collison was asking him like, "How do you lead?" He he goes, "Well, I'm I'm down deep in." He can't be deep. There's there's 200,000 employees. And Elon jokes, yeah, there's 200,000 employees. Like, you have to have some heristic simplifying heristic >> that uh that can spread through their spinning too many plates. Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty impressive. It's super impressive. >> Okay. So, career pivot fear. >> Yes. someone is in the career, not super fired up or I used to be and it just feels like it's time for me to grow now. What are the indicators that it's time to move? And what are the um things that they should keep in mind to uh maximize their bravery, give them a little exogenous amount of morale? So, so on the on the um do you know I mean I love I love this test of is do you see yourself doing this 30 years from now because if the answer to that is no you should get busy what's the line from Shaw Shank like get busy living or get busy dying like if you know that's true like well now is when you should start I'm not saying jump like quit tomorrow but like start building the plan like and then there's all kind of things you can do um um in designing your KN Dave Evans says has this exercise where he says create three to five scenarios and battle card them of what you might do next. Like you know fill them out. AI can really help, right? Like like you could build a 20 pager on each one of these career paths. What might I like? What might I not like? What what are the three things people love in this career? What are the three things? You can steer it all, right? You can ask people in those fields. You can go find them. So you could you could role play being in each of these. There's a there's a there's a huristic in the book that I borrowed from from Ben Gilbert at acquired a lot of podcasters um where he had side hustles at all his jobs. So at each job he went to he would ask the employer if I do it on my own time can I do this other thing also? And what's there's something really great about that one in each of his cases he ended up doing something pretty remarkable in the side hustle at Microsoft he created Microsoft garage which became this way for Microsoft to stay relevant with founders and he met all these founders like all this kind of extra goodies came from that. Um, but I think it all like so you learn more, you learn maybe two, you get two shots on goal instead of one. And I think the employer makes you look proactive so it reflects positively on you. >> When he ended up at at Madrona, VC, asked him if he could start a podcast and look for that lead. And um, I just had dinner with both of them and uh, they were in Austin and man, they're happy. Like I got to tell you, like they are really happy people. So similar to to you and and uh your obsession and and they fell into it through that through getting there through that way. So I think those are some things you can do to uh to test and then look what are you doing in your spare time like are there any signals there? >> Um those are all great ways. I wouldn't quit if you don't know where you're going. That doesn't make any sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. It it's such a good shout to say what are you thinking about in the shower? >> Yes. What are you doing in your spare time? I keep on [ __ ] watching pickle ball drills. I just keep on thinking about pickle ball and I'm really interested in the sport and I'm interested in how it's growing and I love playing it with my friends. But even when I'm not playing it, I'm always thinking about it a lot. Let me maybe there's, you know, maybe there's something going on there. Let me share this fun story I just stumbled on because I was I was I'm I'm I'm using some hacker techniques to promote the book and and that led me to talk to this gentleman and uh I when I pinged him he said he said oh you please send me the book. He goes I saw the video a long time ago and it changed my life. And I said well tell me that story. and um he was he was a real estate lawyer and he loved football and he loved offensive plays and offensive diagrams in football. >> I love this story because it fits with my thesis that the best stories are in jobs your parents would tell you to never go do. He launches a website to help people like manage and develop football plays and then he builds software and then he starts a podcast. He has 900,000 followers and this is what he does all day now. He talks about offensive football plays with the best and the brightest in the field. He's known throughout the industry. What a great story. Like how awesome is that? >> That's brilliant. >> It's so great. Like like I think people don't realize that you can actually there there are careers in a lot of places. A lot of people um want to be in Hollywood or music and they think they can't do it because they're not talented. But there's a hundred support jobs for every artist that's out there and there's tons of work to go do. You know, if you really love being around that stuff, there's tons of opportunity. >> Well, especially given that you can fail at a job that you hate, you can you can underperform in a industry that you don't want to be in. Yeah. >> So the prospect of potentially doing okay at one that you love is infinitely better. >> I think so. I think so. That goes back to life is a use it or lose it proposition. Like give it a go. And then the other thing to know about failing in that is uh humans are like this the the research in psychology says humans are really good at forgiving themselves. Like you're not the failure is not going to you're not going to ruminate on it forever. Especially if you tell yourself, well, I'm proud of the bravery to make the call. >> No doubt. >> Isn't there some evidence from psychology that humans prefer just making decisions generally? That if you make a decision, you tend to be happier. Someone's, let's say, it's a maybe a slightly less momentous decision between one city and another. Uh, the city that you're in now are moving. Um, on average, people that move are happier. And I think part of that is just well life is like novelty and variety are pretty fun. It's different and no doubt exciting. And even if it's objectively a little worse, subjectively it's all new. >> Yes. I like that. I liked it. I just had a similar life experience. I spent 25 years in the Bay Area uh living in one type of community and when I moved to Austin, I moved downtown in a high-rise completely different repot. And it's invigorating. Like it's awesome. >> Yeah. >> New place for coffee, new place to work to take your calls, your morning walk. >> All that's different. That's great. I agree with that sentiment. >> So, you quit a successful job at Compact. >> Yeah. >> To start again. >> Yeah. >> How do people know when they're plateauing versus they're just a bit bored or something? >> Yeah. Um I a few people have asked me this question. I I once again I think the 30-year forward exercise gets you away from that because it's it's it's asking a different question. Um one one thing I'm really big on is um and there's there's a different chapter dedicated to this is is developing peer relationships. And we can go into why I think that's such a huge unlock, but but one of the benefits of having a group of peers, especially if they're outside your organization, so these are people on the same career path you're on, but are maybe a bit distant, they're at a different company or whatever, and if you have a community like that that you really trust and support one another, they can help you with that question you just asked, like, am I am I failing and I'm never going to succeed because I don't have the right talent for it. Am I do I maybe have a shitty boss? Is their experience different? >> Like like you can it's a great group of people to ask those questions of. >> It's almost like being able to run a little split test of yourself. >> Yes. >> What are the things that are different in your experience and how much of those are fundamental to >> the role? >> Exactly. Yeah. And how much of that is transient that I could just >> absolutely absolutely >> finesse my way out of? There's 10 other reasons why you should build that group, but that's it. It's it's good at helping with that problem that you just described. >> How do you deliberately upgrade your peer group without it being transactional? How can you make like-minded friends and peers without them thinking that you're constantly just wanting something? Yeah, it's a tough question because I think the number one reason people are bad at forming these peer groups is they've been taught to be a climber and they've been taught to almost been taught to be a bit sharp elbowed and to outgun the next person. >> Zero sum. >> Yeah. And and we borrow a lot of our mental frameworks from from finite games that have a beginning and an end in a single winner. And careers just aren't that way. almost any industry if it's not uh downhill skiing, there's lots of winners. You know, there's tons of winners. Um podcasting is a great example of that. There's tons of winners in Austin. >> Um and so if you can build a peer network of like-minded people that you trust and and and the the great test of do you trust, would you share your best ideas with them like that you've learned this new thing that you just unlocked in your job? would you share it with them? You should actually, I believe, but a lot of people wouldn't. And so, if you if you once you get to that place, uh, it's a really special place. Um, there's a there's a story in the book about Chris Delcante, who's the athletic director here at the University of Texas, and when he broke into sports administration, he was in the development office. He went to a conference like, and it's a great place to meet peers. He went to a conference and met with a couple of other young men who were also at the beginning of their career. They exchanged numbers and started a text group and over time they added a few more people to that got up to like seven seven or eight. They're all eight all eight of them are D1 athletic directors now and they all started on the bottom and if [clears throat] you follow them along that journey their learning elevated each time the each year they met each each time they texted the problems they were encountering they were sharing they were explaining it got to the point where they would do weekends away with their wives and invite in guest you know you talk about external learning who who's holding doing many conferences on their own nickel and bringing and bringing in external guests to help educate them so that they could rise and thrive together. >> Uh it's just so I I just like I get like there's another story that's that's perhaps more modern for the younger crowd. Mr. Beast did this when he was 17. He found three other people that were trying to hack YouTube. They're basically trying to figure out the game of YouTube and they were on a Skype call for 16 hours a day together. And he says if there were a fifth person in that room, they would have made a million dollars also. >> Like it was just because the stuff they were uncovering was so usable and just deterministic just no one else knew it. And he used a phrase I love. He said, "You know how they talk about 10,000 hours?" Referring to the Malcolm Gladwell book. He says, "We got 40,000 hours because we were we were sharing it all." That's not the exact math, but it's a it's a it's a cool reflection of the moment. You know, a quick aside, you've probably heard experts like Dr. Rhonda Patrick talk about the benefits of omega-3s. They reduce Hello. Omega-3s. There they are. They reduce brain function. No, they don't. They support brain function. Maybe I should take more. They support brain function, reduce inflammation, improve heart health, and they're backed by hundreds of studies. But here's the thing. All omega-3s are not made the same. Most brands cut corners. 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You know, peers are great. they're struggling with the same challenges you're sharing and sort of going on the journey together. That feels cool. It's like a teammate, but presumably there's a a good argument to be made. Well, maybe you aim for someone that's already been through the pitfalls. >> Yeah. >> How do you come to think about >> I think you do both. I think you do both. They serve very different purposes. The the co-learning journey, [snorts] I mean, peers give you give you co-learning. They give you support, which I talked about. They give you reflections to you can ask those questions. Is this the same in your job? Um you're vulnerable with peers. You wouldn't do that with a mentor, right? Like especially if you get the peer group in the right place. You you tell them I'm struggling here. Like um so I think it I think it's just a different purpose. Um, with I think mentors are extremely important, but I think the idyllic version of a mentor is a bit broken because we encourage a lot of young people to cold call too high where the rejection rate's going to be 98% >> because the CFO of this company doesn't want to be friends with you. >> Yeah, exactly. >> But it happens constantly. And so what I encourage people to do is divide mentorship into two different categories. have aspirational mentors and just like that file folder for your dream job, create one for each of them. Like study them like a kid might study Star Wars characters or something. You know what I'm saying? Like really get enamored with these people that you you idolize as aspirational mentors. [snorts] And one, you're going to learn a lot studying them. And by the way, the resources are amazing right now. YouTube interviews, podcasts, like AI, you you can learn faster than you ever could have learned before. So study them. If you ever meet them one day, the fact that you studied them this long is going to prove super useful. And then for the mentors you actually want guidance from, like tone it down a bit. Like go two levels below what you thought you were supposed to do. And you're going to meet somebody who's so thrilled that you recognize that they were successful and worthy of giving advice that your hit rate is going to go up 10x or more. Like the probability that you're going to get them to do the work is so much better. Like >> I noticed that when I first started the show in 2018 and it's still not early. It felt late but you know now it feels earlyish. It was so flattering for people to be invited on a podcast. You know one of the other such a funny trick that I still use now so the world can have this one. Uh [laughter] I I realized that flattery was was one of the big drivers I think for uh bringing people on the podcast especially no one knows who it is. It's this random British guy asking if you should come on. I always used to ask people, uh, can you please put me in touch with whoever handles your podcast adverts? [laughter] >> And it's some small >> I get it. >> Researcher at [ __ ] University of Arizona. >> Uhhuh. >> And they're like, "Oh, well, it's just me that handles my I'm seen in the echelons of those that would have an assistant or perhaps a receptionist that would handle my podcast ads." >> I get it. >> So, and that's that's still now. Please pass me on to whoever handles your podcast ads. And that's actually another good one I think just generally for any outreach to somebody. You want to be in front of the right person and especially if you're starting to pitch up toward mentors that right person who actually handles that thing might not be them. So, uh, you know, reaching out, you please put me in touch with whoever handles Bill's >> uh, inquiries for coffee or whatever it might be to the to the admin inbox because the last thing that you want is some complex question that the person who handles the inbound open email thing or the LinkedIn, you know, the the LinkedIn DM requests, is it them or is it going to be somebody else looking to get put in touch with the person who handles their partnerships or the whatever it is? If it is them, they feel flattered. And if it's not them, the delegate person passes you on to the right Yeah. >> department. >> And and this isn't in the book, but if you ever meet the delegate person, pay as much attention to them as you possibly can. Like learn >> through them. >> Oh yeah. Learn all you can about them. Like like be generous and kind and thoughtful, >> you know. Good uh >> it will pay off big time. good story around that [clears throat] from the show. Uh David Gogggins, you familiar with David Gogggins? I'm not. >> Okay. So, he ex-Navy Seal, endurance athlete, probably one of the most sought after podcast guests on the planet. In the last >> probably six years, he's done two podcasts. One of them was mine and the other was Rogan. It brought a brand new book out. His first book sold gazillion copies. >> Brings a new book out. And uh for 9 months I'm back and forth with a person on his team and checking in seeing how everything's going, seeing the marketing this this this this. And then he cancelled every other podcast appearance except for Rogan. And they tried to cancel the one with me as well. And I got this message, really sorry, David's just going to have to we're not going to be able to make it work. And I was like, look, I will do whatever it takes. I'll move heaven and earth. I'll come to you. I'll bring you to me. We'll change the date. We'll do whatever it is. Um, and they said couple of days later, I got another reply. Okay, we're in. We'll be able to make it work. And when I turned up, David, he's sort of stern stern hard guy. Comes up, very nice to meet you. The first thing he says after that is, I just want you to know the only reason that I'm here is because of her. And pointed to the person that I've been emailing. >> Yep. Precisely. [laughter] >> So in your framework, loving the grind is sort of a non-negotiable. >> Yeah. >> Can someone sort of learn to love grinding or is that innate? >> I don't think so. But, you know, when you were talking about um your your love of podcasting, you know, the the word that popped into my brain, and there's a book by this title was flow. >> And I I just find people that are truly tilting against their passion, they never even think about it as work. like it and and at times the experience does go into this flow thing like where when it when you're done you don't even remember doing it like you're just that much enamored with the whole thing [snorts] and because I've felt that and I've seen it I just I really don't know how you could do that. I I suspect some human is just wired in a certain way where they might be able to do it, but I don't know that most humans could like and I don't know I I do think we get a lot of young people to do it for an extended period of time. >> Um and and >> the meat grinder thing. >> Yeah. I meet some I I just yesterday met with five of the top I I helped start this robotics honors program at Texas and I met with five of them and like you know they're giving you their background Eagle Scout and and it's 1580 SAT and all like clearly this human's been programmed to go take the hill like on every single thing they do. But I don't think that's the path to greatness. Like you know what I'm saying? I just don't think I don't think just being good at the grind is is what it takes to to be truly exceptional. Brute forcing creativity, sort of white knuckling your way through miserable successes. Uh it lasts for a good while and might be sort of the activation energy you need to overcome some discomfort at the start. But I would agree. I think >> and maybe if you're just so damn competitive like winning all the time is >> that winning is your passion. It's a meta passion. >> That's possible. >> Yeah, that's interesting. And that's certainly some people, right? They just want to win. >> Yes. >> Uh I think Michael Jordan would be a good example of this. Have you heard NovakJovich's uh interview where he's asked why are you so good at tennis? And he says I just like hitting the ball. [laughter] >> I love that. >> Yeah. Um whereas you know Jordan invented rivalries like he invented slights against himself. There was was it 92 or 93 >> very driven human being. >> He he wins some I think it's his induction into the Hall of Fame and during that speech this this is the moment that you've worked supposedly your entire career for. >> He takes a shot at somebody, right? He spends the entire speech [laughter] just revealing all of the slights that from his past and this person and this they didn't believe that I'm getting d you're even at the moment where you've broken through escape velocity you're you're [snorts] out in space still >> I don't I don't love that that much you know I love >> it's not the energy that I have. >> Yeah. So >> there's a there's a there's a counter example to that. There's this thing you can find on YouTube where Shaq was on uh the that famous show that he does with with Kenny and and Charles and Ernie and um inside the NBA I think it's called. uh the uh he's at the All-Star thing and there's all these legends there and he just kind of goes off on his own talking and he talks for like five minutes and they don't interrupt him and he's telling his story of how he made it and all the people that influenced him along the way and how he views all these legends as idols and he just goes on he's just thought thankful like gracious for four or five minutes and Ernie's crying by the time he's done. And I love watching it. I've watched it probably 10 times. I just love the notion that you carry that much um thankfulness for the others that helped you get where you are. And I think in conveying that it maybe in in it makes him look like remarkable, you know, it really does like that he that his brain's wired that way. I I felt very proud of him. Like I have no reason to be proud of him and he probably couldn't care less that I am proud of him, but I it was uh it was I like that I like that version better. >> It feels much more pro-social. >> Yes. I suppose the problem is the problem is ultimately what matters is performance especially in an industry like that. You know if Michael Jordan was some middling or pretty poor quality basketball player >> true >> calling out all of these people and inventing random rivalries to try and motivate himself to go people would look and say you're just bitter. And the same thing with Shaq. If Shaq, who had a version of him that hadn't achieved all of that, was, >> you know, prolitizing about these wonderful people and how grateful he would be called a suckup. >> Yeah. >> And this is >> that's fair. >> The the medium is the message, but the medal is the message very much for this stuff. >> Well, and look, that is more of a finite game, right? like that is then I you'd use downhill skiing but there are like those kind of competitive sports you may need to be sharp elbow to climb to the top >> if you're an author the same thing is not true >> that's right that's my main point and most of the careers most of us chase that's not that that's not a reality um but but I also have a principle always give back which is why I I feel warmly about the Shaq thing which is I I think that the minute you move from the first rung to the second rung of the ladder. If you take the time to appreciate the people that helped you with that movement, you will develop a process that you will feel really good about at the end of your life. And um your [clears throat] network of supporters will grow faster. You'll have more friends in your corner. >> You're seen as the pro-social hub as opposed to the person that stepped on a bunch as they correct they come up. Yeah. you'll be able to weather the bad times and enjoy the good times more. >> Yes. >> But so you talk about honing your craft. Kind of interested in what that looks like in knowledge work when there's there's no clear scoreboard. >> Well, here here's here's what I would say is and and I think this relates to this college grind. I think some of these kids are so burned out by the time they get to the end of their senior year in college that they can't wait to not study anymore. like they they view it as okay 12 years plus four 16 I'm done and they're looking for a break from studying and the best in their field like Danny Meyer are studying all the time and so that's a that's a weird contrast like and there are fields where continuous learning is somewhat required the the medical profession is one where that happens um and obviously ly there are fields like uh ballet where if someone says they work 16 hours a week we or a day we all applaud it which is weird because if you said that about a engineering career they'd say you're a bad human you know but whatever um so this this this notion of learning constantly in your spare time I think it's just the best test of whether you're truly obsessed with what you're doing. Do you remember when do you remember when Elon took over X and he did that announcement post and he said we are looking for people who want to work on the hardest problems possible as long as they can at an unrelenting pace to try and change the world. And there was a lot of quote tweets of this saying we're throwing it back to a version of work life balance that is completely primitive. >> This is abuse. This is horrendous. All the rest of it. And don't get me wrong, there are certainly some bosses in some industries that will drive their employees so hard that it's irresponsible. But if you're stating it upfront, >> y >> what all of those people that quote tweeted it and complained about Elon's horrendous working conditions failed to understand is there are people out there to whom that sounds like a dream. Yes, >> they want to work 18 hours a day fueled exclusively on highquality stimulants and Chick-fil-A, >> especially if they get to hang around with the smartest people. They >> and they want to be pushing each other and they want they want to send it. They want to send the living [ __ ] out of it. >> You know who's doing that right now, which is super interesting? The Young AI founders. They they've embraced this uh meme from China 996. It actually was developed in China which means uh 9 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. 6 days a week. >> That's what it stands for. But they used the phrase and Silicon Valley got lazy in co. So you have the situation where the broader culture had moved from being formerly a bit workaholic to being lazy and despite the you know they they literally aren't coming into the office. You can go in downtown San Francisco and look through buildings, you know, because there's so much cubicle space with no one there. >> And these young kids in this AI world >> eating their lunch >> are the ones you're talking about that want that experience. >> Who are some examples of those? >> I I think almost all of I'm I'm I'm serious. Almost all of the AI companies in San Francisco have this mindset especially if they have a young founder like a 20 22 which is but there but it it it I'm agreeing with you like this notion that okay you don't like it because you don't think there's work life balance. Do you think it should be illegal for them to do it? >> Like like I don't they choose their own life. It's kind of the argument for drug legalization, but it's workload legalization. Exactly. If you're doing it and it doesn't hurt anybody else, you do to your workload as you wish. >> But I would say this, if you're um you do need to recognize that you might one day be competing with someone that >> has that mindset. >> Absolutely. >> And that's where I go back to like do what you love because if you're sitting next to that person >> and you're white knuckling it and they're loving every moment, >> Yeah. you're probably going to lose because they're at home learning in those extra hours stuff you're not like there's no way to keep up. >> Yeah. Well, the the it is even if every small if every iteration of you doing a thing degrades your willpower, drive, whatever, even by the tiniest tiniest tiniest amount, it is just a single direction trajectory from you to crash land into burnout. Well, and the gap is going to grow. And and and I'll tell you one other thing which I I stumbled upon which I think is an interesting juiposition. If you're a grinder, if you followed the path you were told to follow, you went to the school you were told to go to, you got in the program you were told to go to, you became certified as an accountant or an engineer, whatever this thing is you did, but you don't love it. You're in that place you were talking about. I suspect for those people AI scares the living [ __ ] out of them. Like they view AI as >> grind versus grind. >> It's gonna out it's gonna crush me. It's going to I'm going to lose my job. Look at this world that's unfair. Now, if you contrast that with someone who is a proactive, independent climber who's trying to build their craft, their world, they're a continuous learner. For that person, AI is a jetpack. Like, like they can now do more things faster that they wanted to do and they can achieve more than they were able to before. >> They get to run extra fast. Like, so so two two people maybe in a in a same station in life, AI looks like the opposite to them. >> A threat or a a nitrous turbo boost. >> Yes. A quick aside, if you've noticed your energy isn't quite what it used to be, even though you eat well and stay active, there might be a reason for that. As we age, our mitochondria, which is the parts of our cells that produce energy, become weaker and make less energy, which is why I am such a huge fan of Timeline. They developed this pill right here that helps clear out damaged mitochondria so your cells can actually renew themselves. And this isn't just theory. In clinical trials, people saw mitochondrial renewal increase by more than 40% in just 16 weeks along with improvements in their overall energy. Timeline is backed by over a decade of research. It has more than 50 patterns and is the number one doctor recommended mitochondrial supplement on the planet. I started taking it nearly 2 years ago because it was recommended to me by my doctor and that is why I've used it for so long since way before I knew who made the product and that is why I partnered with them. Best of all, there's a 30-day money back guarantee, plus free shipping in the US. And they ship internationally. So, right now, you can get up to 20% off and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to timeline.com/modernwisdom. That's timeline.com/modernwisdom. Can I read you an essay that I wrote? >> Sure. >> Cool. So, >> uh, guidance doesn't sculpt us into something new. It exaggerates who we were already. The patent is almost cruel. The ones who least need the medicine are the ones most likely to overdose on it, while the ones who need it desperately are immune. Advice doesn't land evenly. It finds the path of least resistance and tends to be absorbed by people who already lean in its direction. So, I first started thinking about this when considering the postmeto instruction of don't be pushy with women. And I realized that it made conscientious, anxious guys even more timid. Yes. >> While the dudes that were blowing through boundaries just didn't take heed. Exactly. Or another example of the prescription to just work harder. >> Yeah. >> That gets devoured by the insecure overachiever who's already bleeding effort into every crack of their day while the genuinely lazy person just coasts past it unchanged. The call to take more responsibility encourages the one who always thinks that it's their fault to carry even more of the load while the ones who constantly point the finger elsewhere never change. There's a bunch of reasons. People filter it through their existing traits. It amplifies predisposition instead of correcting overbalance. We all want to be good, so we sort of overindex guidance that flatters our self-image. But I think the most influential one is that the the pieces of advice that match our inner fears are the ones that we believe the most. So an anxious man doesn't just hear don't be pushy. He feels that it confirms the fear. Any move he makes is already too much. The sensitive man doesn't just hear open up more. He feels it confirms the worry that he's emotionally inadequate. even when he's already oversharing. And for what we're talking about, the insecure overachiever doesn't just hear work harder. They feel it confirms the suspicion that they're never enough regardless of how hard they try. And this to me the the um disproportionate way that advice, you call them advice hyperresponders, right? The same piece of advice goes in very different directions to two different people. Um, I do still think that developing a grind capacity is important. >> Yeah. >> But if you don't have the passion part, if you don't actually care about it, you can drive really, really fast in a direction you don't want to go. And that's the problem that you will look back on a career where you white knuckled a [ __ ] ton of lorded but largely unfulfilling wins. Yeah. And and and look, I'm I'm somebody that I don't think you feel this if you switch jobs at three years, but when you when you reach a a a true retirement and I'll be 60 next year. And when I decided that, okay, I loved every minute of being a venture capitalist, but it's time for me to to pass it on to the next generation and move out of the way. It's reflective like, oh [ __ ] I'm I'm there. like I've and uh I think it's hard when you're 25 I I think when you're one of the benefits of being 18 is you don't see the end of times at all >> like and that gives you all kind of superpowers like to to play. um there's some point at which you realize there's an end to all of this and for this particular thing about your career I think the sooner you can feel that the better just but because if you do want a different at bat like >> you want to frontload that fear a little bit >> yeah if you can I don't know if everybody can >> um >> well I certainly know that the regret minimization thing. There's a variety of different exercises that are done. >> George, my housemate, used to [laughter] think he did this. He did this 6 years ago. I remember him telling me about this six years ago and I thought it was insane. I kind of still think it's insane now, but I know he still does it. I think it's one morning a month. He's got a reminder on his phone. He wakes up, he lies in bed, and he imagines what it would be like to have no arms or legs. [laughter] viscerally thinks about what it would be like to [laughter] have no arms or legs for 30 minutes >> to be grateful. Is that >> to to and then to be reborn into this body? >> Yes. >> With the arms and the legs. So, I've been I've been really pushing hard over the last 18 months uh on emotional work. um trying to get below the neck as as I've said >> and uh I think a big part of it is this that how many smart people who know all of the insight they could do an expected value calculation about the likelihood of the success and what is the objective quantifiable uh utility of enjoyment versus but then you've got hidden and observable problem coming through again >> um but ultimately what that strategy from George is trying to do what or regret minimization thing is trying to do is not really frontload more information. It's trying to overload emotion. It's like, oh my god, there is a there's a great [ __ ] workbook from Tony Robbins, Unleash the Giant >> within >> within, but it's this weird 1994 Audible workbook and it's only an hour and a half long and I can't even find it. Listen, I've got it in my Audible. George has got it in his a couple of our friends that we've sent it to. I can't even find it publicly. I don't know what [ __ ] it's your hacker friends that have got us under the back. >> And in it, he's got this thing where he says, "Imagine what it's cost you in the past. Imagine what it's costing you now. Imagine what it will cost you in the future." He wants you to overload the pain. It's like feel as much of it as possible. All of the rumination and the grief and the wisfulness and everything that from what's happened >> and right now, how is it affecting you? How is it limiting your time? How is it stopping your happiness and the future? What is it going to do to you? What's life going to be like if nothing changes for a decade, for two decades, three decades? >> What are you going to be like? What are your relationships going to be like? The quality of your mind, your health, everything. >> And then imagine >> what life could be like if you changed. >> Yeah. >> And he's trying to get you to oscillate between this pain, pleasure principle. Yeah. And uh I've had to make some you I I moved from the UK. I was 32 years 33 nearly 33 years old with a successful career in the UK running nightclubs one of the biggest events companies in the north of England. It's something I dedicated 15 years of my life to. Co had just happened and nightclubs were just reopening and the clubs reopened and I didn't want to go back. I just wanted to do the podcast. >> And that was the exercise that you went through >> and I presume zero regrets about the move at this point. the best single decision that I ever made in my entire life. But even with that in going back, I I don't have the borrowed authority of my fears from back then. Uh so this is a a great idea from Morgan. You should I I'll send you this once we're done. It's this wonderful blog post. He talks about nostalgia and about how we we sort of we're unable to see the pains from the past, especially when we've moved on. We don't see our fears from the past particularly well. So him and his wife uh are talking about when they used to live in New York and they were in their 20ies before they had kids. And he's saying to his wife, "Wasn't it so wonderful? We used to wake up on a Saturday, we could lie in bed, we'd get a coffee, we could just walk around. We had no responsib [laughter] D. >> Yeah. >> And Morgan realized that in retrospect, all of his fears that were a waste of time, he knows were a waste of time. >> He didn't need to worry. So what he sees is how he should have felt. >> I got you. >> Knowing how well life was going to go. >> Yeah. >> So this it's the same reason that no one ever believes we're living through a golden era. Golden eras only exist in our memory. >> And uh all of that together, you know, I can't see. I know that I had the fear. I've got the [ __ ] journal. I've got the journals on on on my Apple Notes still of what if I do this thing and it goes wrong and everyone's going to laugh at me and I'm going to have to come back and live in my mom and dad's spare room and I'm going to have a gluten intolerance and a club foot be under a bridge and it's all going to be and yeah I had it have not gone well maybe that would have been the case but that is the worst possible scenario and there were a million there's gradations between the best one and the worst one. Uh but yeah, I I uh am really proud of making that decision. But I even that the best single decision I ever made in my life, I still had to apply a [ __ ] galactic volume of pain and the same amount of pleasure in a desperate attempt to galvanize me to do it. So yeah, even even decisions which in retrospect feel very obvious, I think at the time require inhuman amounts of motivation to go to get the activation energy to get you moving. >> I like the battle card notion. I mean, it's similar to some of the designing your life stuff, but like allowing yourself to fully imagine the other reality, you know, and and and without the comparison, like while you're while you're doing it, like really imagine every element of it >> and on its own and then maybe go back and do the one you have and then battlecard them. I love that idea. I think one of the reasons I was a useful venture capitalist and um one of the reasons I this regret minimization thing worked for me is I think I'm very good at bringing forward the future in my brain >> like like extrapolating back if you will like almost like a uh life NPV kind of thing like just able to do that and >> it's like reverse time travel. >> Yes. and and it makes those exercises work better. You know, the fact that I somehow can do that in my brain. Um, so >> speaking of that, you're a very successful investor. What were you looking for in the founders that you invested in? What were the traits? What was the global >> Yeah. >> decision framework? >> And and a lot of VCs say the same things over and over, so I'm a little hesitant, but I'll do it anyway. Um the one that took me the longest to fully recognize is how important product product instincts are. So that's critical like like new most of these companies are riding some new wave like this AI wave and the product uh surfaces of the new thing aren't as well understood as the ones of the old thing. Think about the mobile movement. >> So you're predicting >> and you need instinct to get that right. Like you just need instinct. you got to be ahead of the market. >> Humans and how humans like to interface with things and a whole bunch of stuff. So products a big one. Um salesmanship is a huge one that that people probably don't think about enough. But if you're a founder, you're selling to new investors. You're selling to employees. You own the company culture and the perception of the company. You're striking deals. You're selling to customers. you're just out selling all you're the number one sales you're the chief salesperson for your company and if you're no good at it um you will struggle. So that that's another one. Determinism, you know, and it kind of goes back to everything we're talking about with chasing your dreams, but you know, Josh Wolf at Lux Capital says, "Chips on shoulders put chips in pockets." And >> like like someone that that maybe failed a couple times. >> Got a point to prove. >> Oh man, you want to feel that like you want to feel that they're never going to give up. >> Bit of grit. >> Yes. Like not a bit like you want you want top 1 percentile. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You want to be afraid a little bit [laughter] >> about how determined they are? >> You know >> what was that line? Uh is this person going to do this no matter what? Was that Bezos? >> Bezos. I I asked Bezos. You found that? I asked Bezos once how he could be such a successful angel investor because he's running the largest employment count company in the world. >> There's other [ __ ] to do. Yeah, exactly. >> He has less time than you to scrutinize this >> way less. Yeah. >> And he said the only thing he looks for is the determinism. Uh is this person going to do this no matter what? And all of his questions >> that's so cool. >> All of his questions were around that one very thing. >> What if this? How would you approach that? How have you in the past done over >> why are you doing it? Like >> you know what if this comes up? Like what if someone offered you that? You know, >> I had a conversation with a a friend a few years ago and he gave this wonderful example of champions. He says, "Everybody looks at champions to try and find what they have that other people don't have, but they've got it completely backward." Champions miss something that normal people do have, which is an off switch. >> Yes. And when you're talking about a zero sum game or a game that's more competitive, found a world, >> you're looking for somebody who will go to unreasonable lengths. And I suppose this is why uh strong ethics too, if you care about the ethics of the companies that you're going to invest in because that chip on shoulder, that determinism >> could push you right across the line. >> Very, very >> a lot of these people live on the line. >> Yeah. >> It's just it is what it is. Um, when you said that, I couldn't help but and I it's horrible the accident she had, but I couldn't help but think of Lindsay Vaughn. Like she had a >> Who's that? >> Lindsay Vaughn's the downhill skier that's 41 42 and is in the Olympics right now. >> Okay. >> And um, you know, she had retired a while back and came back, trained again, was her her trial times were highly competitive. Um but um early when she got to Italy, she injured her her ACL and she put on a brace and said, "I'm going to compete anyway." And unfortunately had an accident that went to the hospitals, had three surgeries, >> snapped her [ __ ] >> Yeah. But but to be in your 40s >> and coming back >> in some ways, look, >> somewhat injured and I'm like, I'm going anyway. >> Sending it anyway. [laughter] Look, I I I I didn't know about this story. Um, >> this just happened like a week ago. >> I kind of like it. [laughter] >> I kind of like it. What a way to go out. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah, fair enough. >> You're going to be laid up. >> Better to burn out than to fade away. >> Well, could you imagine? Again, that is and this a [ __ ] wonderful little microcosm of exactly what we were talking about. What about that open loop? >> Yeah. >> Would my ACL have held up? >> Yeah. >> Would it have held up? Am I going to go back at 45? >> No, I'm not going back at 45. >> No. No, it's the last shot. >> This is it. >> Yeah. >> So, I kind of like it. >> Fair enough. >> I'm sure that her surgeon doesn't like it. Or maybe he does if he's paid well, but I'm sure her physio and her strength and conditioning coach don't like it. >> Yeah. >> Um, going back to the founder thing, >> is the founder more important than the company to you in some ways? Would you bet just on a founder that this person will find a thing? Well, here's one one proof point that would speak to this is um there there are multiple companies that the original idea completely failed and the founder was able to pivot to something entirely new and be wildly successful. >> Like Slack is an example. It was a game company and the game failed but they had built this tool to develop the game. >> I didn't know about that. Um, Discord, who's one of our companies, was also a game company that failed and launched this Skype alternative for communicating during games that became wildly successful. And for any venture capitalist that's been through one of those pivots, they're famously known as pivots now. Um, it's all about the person. Like, it's all about the founder. like um there's also a data point that most venture capitalists will quote and I'm sure it's not scientific but a new CEO hires a 50/50 bet at best. So why if you're doing positive like trying to run MPVS would you even take the risk of hiring a CEO because you're going to there's a 50-50 chance you'd just get a bad apple in which case it's all toast. So yeah, there's and and that lore goes beyond me. I mean, I think the the founder um mythology, if you will, is quite high in Silicon Valley for all those reasons. Now, there are times where you have no other option. And there are there's way more stories. This is kind of an odd fact, but companies that serve businesses um have a much higher success rate of replacing the founder than companies that serve consumers. >> Why do you think that is? >> My best guess is consumers are more fickle and that that product thing is just more um artistic, you know, more >> like a taste again. >> Yes. It's more like a movie than than >> I love that. >> Business and business products are more systematic. >> Yeah. Yeah. You can algorithm that down to >> Steve Jobs once said that the difference is the buyer in a business isn't the user >> and he made that point and that may be it like that may be the essence of it. >> That's cool. I um this thing that the beverage that you're drinking is mine and it's the first big company that hasn't been something that I've directly operated aggressively myself that I've founded. And um one of the interesting elements that I've seen with this where we we did a raise last year, we raised 3.4 million and right now we're in the middle of raising six in a bit. Uh, I'm watching Luke, who is one of the co-founders today. He drove from Portsmouth on the South Coast to Leads, which is 5 and a half hours away. It's [ __ ] forever away. Drove to Leeds for one investor meeting. Yeah. >> Just sit down with this guy. And when you think about as you're sort of reeling off all of these different traits that he's that that you would have sort of the obsession, the determinism, and um what's been cool is to see you almost get to learn what people think of you when you do fundraising when you're trying to get cash to inject into a business that's yours. You almost see in the responses from people. And uh a couple of times [laughter] we sent the deck out. This was in the first one. So, we send this deck out and it's all sexy and it's got the numbers and the projections and all the rest of it. One of my friends sent a reply to the deck and he made a meme. Have you seen the Midwit meme? You familiar with this? On the left hand side is sort of a Neanderthal guy and on the right hand side is a sage that looks like a Jedi. In the middle is a guy that overcomplicates everything and he's sort of screaming and getting and the joke is that the guy on the left and the guy on the right always agree. Uh, if it's going to the gym, it's uh, lift weights, eat protein. Lift weights, eat protein. The guy in the middle, I must ensure that my scientifically accurate predigested whey is consumed within a 30 minute. And he replied with that meme. >> And he said, uh, the guy in the middle said, uh, read the deck, make expected value calculation, uh, check against finances. And the guy on the left and the guy on the right said, I bet on Chris. >> Yeah. >> I bet on Chris. I bet on Chris. And it was really interesting to see. Do people look at you or Luke who's my guy or James who's one of the other co-founders do they look at you and go I just you'll make it work no matter what. >> Yeah. >> And uh that was cool. It's the first time that I've I've >> you can take that too far. I I've met with founders who who are anti-deck. I even wrote a blog post called in defense of the deck because they >> got to make sure that you don't misspell one of those words. But yes, >> they walk in the they walk in the room and just want to chat and you know nothing about the business. You know jack [ __ ] and I don't want to learn about the business through a prompt with this human. Like it's too hard. You can't get enough information fast enough through that. So I and and I in in this blog post which I'd encourage people to find, I show Steve Jobs, Mark Benny off, Jeff Bezos in front of a deck like [laughter] >> it's Hey, look guys, it's good enough for them. No, no, no. I don't I don't disagree. I'm not advising people. People are prepared. If you are [ __ ] investing in Newtonic, please scrutinize. >> But I but but I want to say one other thing about this because I think it gets more to the point of of what you said. Um most people perceive venture capitalists to be making investments the way maybe a a buyside public investor might be. If it's positive IRR and I'll make 14%, I'll do it. But venture capitalists have a limited number of boards they can go on probably two a year and and so they don't have limited shot unlimited shots on goal. They can't fund everything that's over 12% hurdle rate. They have to fall in love. And it goes back to what we were saying with stories and all this stuff about people like they're going to pull the trigger because they have an emotional positive bias to go do this thing. that taps in. It's It's about Chris for sure. Yep. >> But there's they also need to kind of love the category and love the idea and want to spend 10 years working on the problem. Like all those things like it needs it they have to flip from zero to one in their own head. Yeah. >> In this human's head. >> Does that make it harder for businesses that are less sexy? >> Of course. Unquestionably. [laughter] That's why there's like these uh these mid-market PE people like they they go do they [snorts] go do those things. I don't even I would never be motivated by it but but you know I'm not not necessarily [ __ ] on them too bad like somebody there are you can make money there are things to be done you know >> but but I also would say and I think this is important um um there are businesses that shouldn't take venture capital and um a series A typically leads to a B and typically leads to a C and the ownership that a founder has can shrink pretty dramatically. And then the exit value, the exit value you need to make the same amount of money had you sold it 100% on sweat equity is now 10 times higher. >> And just make sure you think through all that somehow through the use of these 19 credit cards and everything. By >> talking the guy behind Tito's >> 100% of his and >> unbelievable. Do you know Gym Shark? You familiar with Gym Shark? No. So, it's uh probably one of the biggest British companies to active. I'm actually wearing the the trousers right now. And Ben, the the CEO and founder is a a good friend. And um it is a 2.6 billion pound >> Wow. >> company and it is uh entirely private. I think he's still got 75% of it. Yeah. >> Himself. It's >> a lot. But I would say even if you're going to sell for 20 million, there [clears throat] are far more companies that want to do a tuck in $20 million acquisition than want to do a half a billion acquisition. Like you're >> what's the size of the market you're selling it to? >> Well, plus the if you're a large public company, you can do a $20 million acquisition without filing anything, without telling anybody. Your boss won't care. Um if you own a 100% of a $20 million company, that's lifetime wealth. like trying [snorts] to make $20 million selling a company for half a billion. That's hard because it's hard to sell. >> Fewer people that can buy it. It's going to have more scrutiny that goes over the top of it. You've now diluted down. >> You need audited financials. You need like they're going to have to file an S8. There's all this stuff. It get it gets really hard to sell a company. >> I don't ever think I don't ever think about the market of selling a company. You think about the market of the company that it sells to. >> Yes. That's so cool. >> Yes. Yes. It matters. It really mattered. It really mattered. And by the way, if you sell that first company for 20 million that you own 90% of and you want to go take the big shot and raise money, well, great. Now you now you've got freedom, flexibility, you can take all the risk you want. You know, do it the second time. I've seen I've heard a bunch of different horror stories about founders who've diluted down and diluted down and diluted down and then before they know it they're like what the [ __ ] am I working for? >> No doubt. Lick pref is a beast. >> What's that called? >> Liquidation preference. So venture capitalists typically take preferred stock and it has a term called liquidation preference which means in a sale they get the option to basically treat it like debt. They get paid out first. >> Wow. in a sale. And so if you've raised in these days with these AI rounds, if you raise 500 million like Common doesn't even participate until you get a sale over that technically. Now it's often there are carveouts because they have to get something done, but the bigger that number gets, the more weighty it is. >> Yeah. I mean, I I feel fortunate when we did the first raise, I bought back in. I didn't want to dilute. Nice. >> I threw more money in. I threw more money in actually. >> And by the way, the investors love seeing that. Love love love seeing that. >> I I was like, I am not. In fact, I gained I gained share of Newtonic when we did the raise. So, I bought in over the top of where I was already while we were diluting down. >> Hard to do. >> It was I mean, James James wanted a new Porsche. >> Um, and he was very gracious and we shifted some stuff around and I I can't remember where else I >> That's awesome. >> But no, it was it was cool. And um it's been really fun sort of learning about that world and now being able to see what's happening especially in the world of AI at the moment. Oh, that's a question. What what are you ex most excited about with regards to the industry of AI and what do you think is overblown? >> I would I mean be a little redundant but the thing I'm most excited about is just the personal empowerment. You know, there's all kind of anthropologists that will tell you we evolve with our tools. Humans like like it's very clear, right? If I had a plow and a tractor and a and a and a computer and a chemistry set and the other guys the guy in naked and afraid like I'm going to be more involved than I can do more stuff. And this is the latest of those things. And um anyone that is a skeptic or and I've met a lot of like the top academicians that are skeptics and all this, you are you're no different than the lites with the with the looms in Europe. Like you're just not. It's the modern version of that. And the number one thing you can do to futureproof yourself is to run at it. like to know whatever industry you're in, there is an edge of what is AI capable of in this industry and [snorts] you want to be right there. You want to be aware of exactly what that is. And if you are the most AI productive human in your field, you're not getting fired. [laughter] Like you're you're the one they're asking all the questions of like what's this capable of? Um, and so I I in in the in the chapter I have on hone your craft, I say study the history and study the edge. Like if you can quote from the founding fathers of your industry and you know exactly where the technological edge is, you look like a unicorn. You look >> going in the middle is where you die. >> Yeah. I mean, everybody knows the middle. Like I'm just talking about differentiating yourself. >> Of course. Of course. >> Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I I find I mean I haven't I I'm anxious. I this why also why I was a a a useful I use the word useful venture capitalist I have FOMO about new [ __ ] that I don't understand. So up until at least a year or two ago if something [ __ ] if there's an app in the app store in the top 10 I've never heard of like hives like I have to know I have to [laughter] and uh >> you're allergic to ignorance. >> I'm coming off of it a bit because I haven't done a clawbot yet which I feel guilty about. >> Well you can't get you can't get a [ __ ] Mac Mini. That's why you're not going to be able to buy them. They're all sold out. >> But I feel guilty about that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've got massive >> FOMO FOMO. But but it's useful like and so anyway that I I think that um the there there I would also say this about AI. If you're not leaning in, not only people have said there's prompt engineering skills, not only are you not learning that, but I find every day I think of a new way to use it and a new way to test what it's capable of. And if you're in it every day, you're helping to explore that boundary and you're all of a sudden learning new things. Do you understand what I'm saying? like um I had this great experience with the with the concluding chapter in the book. So my you know almost done wrapping up feeling good and the editor says Bill take a shot at the conclusion this weekend. So I spent six hours, seven hours. I sent him something. He's like, "This sucks." Like first time like it was really the first critical fee. He didn't use that phrase. I really don't like this. So I asked Chat GPT in the pro version, the $200, $300 a month, whatever it is. Write me a 20page report on the best concluding chapters in non-fiction books of all time and give me a summary of each and what made it special. And in reading through that list, I noticed that eight or nine of the 10 took an orthogonal direction to the book. So it didn't summarize. >> It brought in a new a new perspective >> and that gave me an idea. I I then went and and ideiated on that concept and it gave me a new idea to take it in a different direction and the editor loved it. >> Huh? >> What was the idea? Um the the not I All right, I'll give this one away. Um the concluding chapter is titled It Ain't Easy. And so the whole book is an exercise in trying to encourage you to go do this. And this is a little warning at the end like it ain't easy. You got to struggle. You got to suffer. You got to be okay with failure >> in praise of the grind. >> Yes. And the editor loved it. >> Good. I think that's I think that's an important message. >> Yeah. So I if I don't have AI, I don't do that like you know and it didn't write it for me. I it just gave me a new lens for how to think about it. Um >> when it comes to the AI thing, what what do you think it's going to do to the field of work generally? What what areas would you be worried that are going to be obsolete? um anything that was synthesizing I mean so the LLM large language model is really good at text really really good at text manipulation so if your job involved searching for text summarizing text um anything like that um parallegals are already under threat and I have talked to lawyers that have drastically reduced the size of their parallegal force. I've talked to them that has already happened. Um, coding, it turns out, is highly structured text, more structured than text itself, >> right? If you think about it, it's got more conraints. >> It there's there's more freedom in actual language text than in coding. And that makes and so coding's under threat. And the best people that will write or will generate the most code in the future are the ones that learn to to be able to harness that tool the way a farmer learned to use a tractor instead of plowing. And that's your only choice. Like the the there's no hand hoers anymore. Like they don't exist. And and so this text thing's a big deal. Um, you know, if you translated something, that's a dangerous job. >> Someone needs to kind of make sure the translation's right, >> but that's a different job. It's more of a editor of translation, right? >> And that's an opportunity. Move upstream, be the be the one that's best at exercising that with this tool. But the old tool doesn't doesn't work. Like, it's not going to be real. If you were 21 and starting again with no knowledge or connections, what do you think you'd be focused on? What would you do? >> Um, it would definitely be related to AI. I mean, it just would like I'd be rolling around in it more. I would definitely have already launched 10 claw bots [snorts] versus now where I don't have that that need um to see what's possible. I'm I'm fascinated by the uh the agent idea for a personal assistant like a running buddy. I just find that fascinating. >> Um I another one that I kind of am fascinated by. I think someone will build a new CRM from scratch that will be used by small companies that don't have a CRM because it's easier to start with zero in the database. And I think that will be super clever, that product that I don't think you can get there from Salesforce because you've got this huge database with all these fields and forms that no one wants to look at. And if you start with that as your construct, I think you'd build the wrong thing. Does that make sense? >> Because you're trying to backwards integrate something that's already a little janky. >> And I don't think the user wants to even see that stuff. >> Like >> that's interesting. And so it should whatever the storage mechanism is, I don't think it will be visible to the user in the way that it a database like type enterprise app historically did it. >> Mhm. >> You know, so so anyway, those are things that pop into my brain when you say that. Those are things I'd be playing with. >> I know that you're a big reader. What have been the books over the last couple of years that you have not been able to stop telling people about? >> Um, the second half of Range impacted me and >> Yeah. >> And the book's known for being this antidote to Malcolm, although they're very close friends. In fact, Malcolm's quoted on the cover of Range, I think. Um um but the book people talk about this generalist versus specialist and this comparing of you know these two athletes but he gets into a very different subject in the second half of the book. He gets into this notion um which I had I'd always heard heard a phrase called far analogies, but he gets into this notion that people that switch industries or switch careers or switch academic um focuses tend to be the biggest innovators of all time. And they come into something with a different um mental model than the people that came up through the field. Like if they enter through the side door, >> you understand? And it relates to they see things differently. >> Generalist. Yeah. Yeah. And and they're they're able to bring patterns from or see patterns other people may not see. And I I just find that fascinating. I touch on it in a couple of the chapters. I in the learning chapter and the peer chapter, I say if you make it far enough, you want to stretch the peer to someone that's maybe in a different industry. You want to stretch the learning to other industries and it's where you find some of the biggest nuggets there. It's it's more noisy. You're waiting through >> like it's harder, >> less aligned, right? Yeah. Yeah. But the insights are power law step changes. >> It'd be like you like listening to someone talk about um great writing technique and get an idea for the podcast, you know? Well, one of the things that I did about four years ago when I first moved to America was I got obsessed with cinematography and cinematog recreating the house from Interstellar on a 85 ft video wall, the biggest video wall in Texas using the same technology that Star Wars uses. Yeah. >> And we rendered the entire scene in Unreal Engine 5 and then did set dressing. So we had live elements, dirt on the floor and cactuses and we reversed a [ __ ] air stream in and I sat up at McConn and I sat him down 11th anniversary of Interstellar and we were sat in front of the the house from from the movie and that was because oh I I started learning about this and I started getting friends that were from the cinematography industry and I started asking them what would you do if you were trying to elevate a podcast and da and then we did some cool things and it's larg a passion project wing of what we do. But it's uh it's cool. It's different. In >> in his famous Stamford graduation speech, Jobs said if he had never taken the calligraphy class, he doesn't know if he builds the iPhone the right way, you know, in the Mac, you know, it may or may not. It may be it may just be kind of nostalgia speaking, but the there are things you can borrow from learning far away that can be very impactful. And it's hard to know at the time like when you're consuming it. That's why I call it a bit of a superpower or advanced level I think I call it. >> It's not easy. >> Well, because you're translating it's like an exchange rate between something else and this does that what is that just cool for them? Should I really take what that musician's doing or is this relevant to me? So I guess taste, discernment, and when I think about areas that uh AI can't replicate, uh community, networking ability, taste, discernment. >> Yes, I agree. >> Those are the I'm sure there's tons more, but those are the ones, at least for me, with what I do. It's not going to build a friendship with this other person that I that I want to hang out with. >> I agree with that. >> It can't choose is this the right >> guest? And you the Mr. Beast approach would be well there are just quantifiable metrics of how this person appears on a balance sheet. What's the likelihood of this person being a big play guest or whatever. Um but that also doesn't account that's a local maxima which is everybody's got the opportunity to operate for that to optimize for that. Whereas >> if you're trying to refine for the taste >> that's different. Heck yeah. Bill Gurley ladies and gentlemen Bill you're [ __ ] awesome. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. >> A lot of my friends said, "You're gonna love his energy." And sure enough, you're you're you're a legend. I'm glad that you're occupying some of those highrises down. I've always wondered who lived in them. So, [laughter] it's uh it's good. Where should people go to check out everything you're doing? >> Um, [clears throat] so, so I've historically spent most time, we were an investor in Twitter early on, so I've developed my ex profile the most, and that's where I post most stuff. So, it's BG LY. There's a there's an Instagram account that I'm for the first time in my life developing for the book. >> Congratulations girly. Yeah, it's a different world. Like I feel like such a neoight [laughter] >> like in Twitter I get everything in like I understand it. >> Instagram's a different language. >> Yeah, it's a different language. I'm figuring it out. >> Heck yeah. Bill, I appreciate you. >> Thank you, sir. Bye. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. Congratulations for making it to the end of an entire episode. [music] Uh, another one that I think you'll enjoy is right here.