“Most People Are Broke!” America’s #1 Wealth Killer NO ONE Talks About! | The Money Guys

What if you were the world's worst investor and all you did is you built up cash and then at the very peak right before every bare market you invested. So I invest at the top of 2007 and then right before fourth quarter of 2018 even that investor over a 30 40 year period still ended up with a huge portfolio because if you can give it enough time, you don't have to be right. You just have to be in. >> Not everyone is upbeat about the future. >> So can anyone financially make it in America? >> News media is telling everybody the system is stacked against you. And I get it. We have a lot of headwinds right now with inflation and housing and so forth. I think most young people don't realize their most valuable resource is the time, the decades, and letting that kind of do the hard work for them. The longer you wait, >> the more the pressure builds on your own shoulders. >> For anyone watching who might have money to invest, where would you say are the best opportunities today? right now today if you want to make a lot of income. Thank you so much for coming on the ice coffee hour. I got to say I've been watching your podcast for years. I think since I started watching YouTube videos, you have pretty much the longest running personal finance podcast going on what 10 years. >> Well, it's so funny. We started the podcast in 2006, January 2006. pretty fresh air there. Not not a lot of podcasters back then. And then we got into YouTube in 2017. I think you got you beat us on the YouTube side, but the podcasting >> um and full disclosure, podcasting back in 2006, we got a lot of notoriety pretty quickly, but I treat it as a hobby. I didn't I didn't realize that I had landed on a great business idea. It just seemed like as an educator or mindset of an educator that we had hit something that was going to be really cool, cultural changing. Um it wasn't until we hit on YouTube that I was like, you know what, let's start throwing some resources and turn this into um a business and actually I think that amplified the message even more. >> Yeah. But you also have a business behind this doing wealth management with almost $2 billion under that's incredible. >> Yeah. So we have a fee only financial planning firm where we help high net worth individuals and families from everything from uh saving for retirement to investing to tax planning and everything in between. We want to serve as our personal CFO. And so what we love is a lot of the folks who actually come to the firm are fans of the show. They're like, "Hey, I want to know more about money and how to make wise decisions and the things I don't know." And so they'll get to listen for a while. And they reach that point where they're like, "Man, okay, I think uh I've been listening for a long time, man. I really wish I had someone to help me navigate my financial life." And so that's kind of what the business behind it is. >> Well, I mean, I always talk about the abundance cycle because as you guys know, the more success you have, comp, you know, complexity just naturally shows up. Yeah. >> So, I tell everybody all of our content is try to help you make your life as simple and easy as possible, but I can we can give it away because when you reach success, more than likely you're going to say, "What do I do now?" And that's when we're kind of waiting there. Open arms, leave the porch light on and and turn you into a client. >> Yeah. So, why would you say that people should listen to you? >> Well, I think uh there's a lot of information out there where folks uh want to like sell you something, give you some get-richqu, give you some advice that may not actually be what's best for you. There's a lot of people out there that just want to put stuff out there to get views and eyeballs. And what we think is unique about what we do is we're trying to share information that actually helps people better their financial life. It's not going to be like the super sexy exciting, hey, here's how you can get rich in the next 30 days, but it's like, hey, here are tried and trueue things that you can do in your financial life to improve your financial circumstances and ultimately build towards financial independence. Because that's what our people really want. They want to be financially independent, to live life on their own terms, doing what they want, when they want, and how they want. And there's just a b lot of bad information out there of people telling you the wrong way to do that. We want to be the voice of reason, tell you the actual right way to be able to do that. >> I I think the the purity of the desire and the passion that kind of started this whole thing. It really when in 2006, the only reason I even started the podcast is I always wanted to be a school teacher. And I felt nervous or guilty that people couldn't get good advice. You know, like if you came to me and you said, "Hey, I have $10,000 to invest." People were having to go to the high commission. At that time, it index funds. Now, we think index funds everybody has access back in early 2000. It was not as easy to get even mutual funds. And I always felt guilty that people are having to pay such high costs, not getting good education. There's a lot of gatekeepers to the information. And then when the the first iPod came on the scene, I was like, "This is going to change the world." And I think that that that intent to educate has continued to be the passion that drives the the show. And hopefully people see that. I know we we get a lot of comments about, "Hey, you're financial adviserss." And we can talk about that, too. But the big thing is is that we really do want people to be better with their money and and and actually take an interest. And and I always say you don't even have to give us anything because if you're successful enough, that's when the product actually is. Is you you you can come to us, watch us, absorb, use, apply this for years and there's no ask until you've reached a level of success that it's kind of proven itself. >> So, can anyone financially make it in America? >> Yes, absolutely. >> I do believe that I I because I mean we both come from humble beginnings. Bo even more humble than me. Um, and and I that's one of the things I I would if I could give any message to the audience is so much on social media, news media is telling everybody the system is stacked against you. And I get it. We have a lot of headwinds right now with inflation and and housing and so forth. But there have been times in my life where I've also felt like the system was stacked against you. But if you consistency and then making small steps today, little small behaviors can actually have huge ripple effects in your long-term future. I think most young people don't realize their most valuable resource is the time, the decades, and letting that kind of work do the hard work for them. Just doing a little something. It's kind of, we were talking earlier, >> a Roth IRA is a superpower if you're in your early 20s. I mean, you very little turns into a lot without much effort or hassle. >> Yeah. >> I think one of the things that we've done very poorly in this country, though, is educating people around the basics of finance. It's like a lot of people graduate high school and get into college, even start their careers, and they've had no base level foundation. I know when I was coming through school, there was no like personal finance class to say, "Hey, here's what you need to know about money." And so, a lot of people, if they don't have parents who teach them, and they just get out into the world, they're hit with all these people that want to sell them stuff. We live in this like consumerism society. So, they're not taught the basic fundamentals. So that's what I love about our show is that whether you're someone who has a hund00 million $100 million net worth or you're someone who has a $100 to your name, there's value you can discern from the show about how to make sound financial decisions through all walks of life. So the more people that get that, I think the more people are going to be able to have financial success. >> So is there any excuse at this point for financial failure? >> I don't want to minimize the fact that there are hard circumstances, right? Like there are certainly people that are in a situation that might be more difficult based on whatever factors that may be unknown unknowns, but the basic tenants on living less on living on less than you make and saving for the future and putting a little bit away and saving an emergency fund. You can implement those pretty much no matter where you are. Now, that's not to say that some people don't have an easier path to that based on their education or acumen or skill set than others, but it is something that's possible for everyone. I >> I think you choose your heart. I think for anybody who's watching this who's under 30, I mean, you could you should without a doubt be successful even with minimal financial income because you just have so much value with your time. I think somebody who discovers this in their 30s and 40s, it's a little bit harder. 40s and greater, it's still you have a lot of opportunity, but the longer you wait, >> the more the the the the pressure builds on your own shoulders. >> So, what are the dumbest financial mistakes that you've seen >> that we've seen or that we've done ourselves? could be both. >> Okay. Uh I'll start with my, you know, one of the very first things and I've seen so many people do this. When I got my very first big boy job, you know, I came came out of college, did not have a lot of money, got my first job, had my first salary, I decided, well, obviously now that I've made it, now that I'm successful, I need to go buy the fancy I had a paid for truck that ran just fine. But I decided, you know what I need to do? I need to go out and buy a car. I went out and I still remember bought an Acura TL. It was a super sweet ride, but I financed it for like five years. The interest rate was 9 and a quarter% and I had to have my parents cosign on it. And looking back, I was like, what was I thinking? That car payment that I was spending every month could have done so much better. But I fell in the same trap that most people fall into. Like, you know, I was I was I wanted more than what my financial situation was ready for. And it was a dumb bo decision at that time. I >> I I quickly write wrote down a few of them because I love picking on myself. Um, first of all, I was in high school driving the $1,000 Chevy Cavalere with $2,000 worth of subwoofers in it. I mean, think about what that could have been worth if I'd have been opening up a They didn't have Roth IRA back then. I didn't I didn't buy I didn't buy anything. I didn't that's what that's the good news. You don't have to start when you're 16 years old. I didn't start until I actually graduated college on on saving and investing. And then I think about when I I I bought the internet fund. Y'all have probably never even heard of that. in my first Roth IRA. Um, this is remember the internet came around, you know, this is this is this is the like a 2000 that a lot of this stuff is kicking in 99 2000. I put $2,000 internet fund. Um, and it turned into like four or $5,000. I thought I was genius. Got all my buddies to load up in it, too. We all thought we were so smart. Um, I think I eventually that fund I sold it out at 375. So, I mean, I got crushed on it. It went all the way up to five or six grand. sold it out for $375 because chasing the hot dot those those sector plays it's it's boom bust. It's just not a if id have bought the S&P 500 probably be in a lot better place. And then I also think about because Bo is a CFA and I love to brag about the BO as a CFA because that's a very exclusive club to be in but when he was going through the pro process of becoming a CFA we had this thought that we ought to start doing some options trading. >> Yeah. I had it all figured out. I had the education, so I knew how to. >> So, we were we were buying um calls and then we were selling puts on things. And here's what I I quickly learned about options trading. You can be accurate and correct with your assumptions, but your timing can be crap. >> And timing is >> I mean, cuz we we short we I shouldn't say short. We we sold puts on or bought puts on Netflix >> and we were spot on. And it was way overvalued at the time that we were doing the puts, but it all, you know, matured. And then it was two months later that the bottom fell. I mean, we would have made an absolute fortune on this strategy, but we were two months off. And it just showed us and and by the way, this wasn't my first time screwing up options because I I bought options on Apple um years ago where I turned a,000 into $4,000. Um this is Bo was involved in this, too. so he doesn't get off the but of course we bought the next contracts and we turned it all into $300. So I mean that's what I've I've made the mistakes of chasing the hot dot just like we talk about and that stuff feels so good emotionally. But I've learned that you it's really the hassle factor and then the focusing on small things instead of actually creating behaviors that change your life. It it's not worth it because all it does is leave scars and some carnage unless you know we we joke about Nvidia. We joke about Apple, but as we talked about earlier, even if you hit those those licks, you're still likely going to sell when it doubles, triples, or quadruples. You're not going to be there when it goes 10, 20 times your your initial investment. >> And what about for other people though? >> Yeah, I think what's great about our stories are these are like uh I'm going to say small mistakes. They didn't say small at the time, but they were small mistakes early on that we're able to learn from and rebound from. A lot of people uh that we've seen in our experience have ended up making mistakes, but they make them later on in their life and they make them to where they're unreoverable, right? Like it's one thing if you blow a couple grand on options. It's another thing uh in the community that we moved from uh where we started the business originally, uh there was a family that had been incredibly successful. They were real estate developers. They owned all of their real estate, all of their property, a lot of commercial property outright. The father was like completely independently wealthy. Well, his son was trying to make a name for himself and kind of continue the empire. And so he said, "Hey, Dad. I got this great idea. We're going to go develop this neighborhood. Uh, but I don't have the capital to do that. So, we need to mortgage and put up his collateral, all of our commercial buildings." And we're talking about like eight figures worth of commercial buildings so that we can go do this development. But it's a sure thing. Community is expanding. It's advancing. And then what happened? 2007, 2008, 2009, the entire thing went belly up. So they ended up going bankrupt, losing eight figures worth of real estate, all of it getting foreclosed on. And there was no reason for that. There was no excuse for that. He had already, the father had already won the game, but he was trying to be a bridge and provide an opportunity for a son and they ended up completely belly up, which is just devastating to see that kind of stuff happen. I I mean things I I've I've dealt with that I always you know I I work used to work with professional athletes and I can tell you that we've had cases where um you know these are guys getting multi-million dollar signing bonuses and other things and then you find out that they financed a pool with 15% interest rates um instead of paying cash. We had we had accounts full of cash that could have paid. I've also had um professional athletes driving around cars um that you know the dealership wanted their likeness you know so they use an advertising so they give the the athlete the car and then they don't have insurance on it they don't do anything they're just doing whatever and then also personal guarantees I mean I think about you know we all know about the Michael Vic type case study when you know got the dog fighting and all those deals kind of they call the banks and everybody called the deals in I've seen a lot of professional athletes and I've seen a lot of business owners and we've And cuz we do commercial real estate, personal guarantees is a scary scary thing. So that's why you always have to tell people be very careful before you're signing on to these deals because a personal guarantee means they can come take whatever they need to to make you whole. >> I have a whole story when it comes to a personal guarantee. I had uh a friend >> get a business and his dad was the personal guarantee. The business for the business. Everything was fine for the first year or so. COVID hit, the business was shut down. Uh, someone went after his dad and after their house >> because of that personal guarantee because the son didn't have the money for that. >> How did it play out? The dad ended up losing in that in that lawsuit. >> They they they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees >> just to try to get a settlement. I mean, it was it was awful. >> It seems so innocent when the banks put this stuff before you, too. Oh, it's just it's, you know, cuz you assume everything's going to be great. >> That's why we always tell people and and it doesn't even have to be mistakes. I mean, I've dealt with clients >> who were prospects who were coming on board, interviewing us, and then I've reviewed the deal, and it's this is right after the 2017 tax legislation. If y'all remember, that tax legislation made it where attorney's fees were no longer deductible. And we had a client getting this or prospect that had just signed up was getting a huge multi-million dollar payment from this this this lawsuit like a >> high seven figure deal. >> It it was a big deal. And as soon as I looked at it, I was like, you guys have structured this all wrong. I was like, you none of these attorneys fees are going to be deductible. The client is going to end up with because they're going to pay it all to the government. They're paying all the attorneys fees. They're going to pay all these taxes and you're not going to be ending up with what you think you are. They they went to their attorneys and they're like, "No, that's not true." And then I was like, "Seriously, this is all new legislation. I know that a lot of people have not taken this in. Go look at" and so they it took two or three phone calls with them and they came back and they oh my gosh, he's right. And and they re we were fortunate to be early enough in the process restructured the whole deal with the the insurance companies and everything. And it really did result in this client getting millions or 4 million. >> I I didn't want to give the but it was it was a turn a delta of three to4 million. So, that's the thing. It doesn't have to be a mistake. It just could be things you don't even know when you're dealing with big transactions. And we see it with account structures. Think about setting up a business. You know, a lot of people are self-employed and they don't have an accounting background. So, they don't know what what's the account structure. I mean, should I be or how should I do my business? S Corp? Should I be a CC Corp? Because these qualified small business things that I hear people talking about, you know, or should I be an LLC? >> That's the type of stuff that, you know, if you just don't know, who tells you this stuff? I mean, you've y'all have experienced with any type of success. I've always felt like, wouldn't it be nice if somebody was out there just tell you so I don't have to go figure this out? Because I feel like a lot of times I'm figuring it out or we're having to to navigate that. And that's what I think we play a a key part so you don't have to go through this like it's your first time. So, we've talked to so many entrepreneurs on this show, but one thing we haven't really covered is how do you actually get started? Like, what's the first step? How do you even set up an LLC? And where do you even go to set one up? If you're asking yourself these questions, I got good news for you because we've actually partnered with Busy to sponsor this episode and I got to say, I've used them myself and it could not have been easier. Setting up my LLC took less than 10 minutes and I knew everything was getting filed properly and professionally. It's actually so simple. 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But then if you take the people that are good with their finances and the people that are bad with their finances, what would you say are the main traits that distinguish those who are financially responsible and irresponsible? >> Uh so the first one I would say is discipline. Generally speaking, those that are uh financially on the right side of the equation tend to be more disciplined and in all in all walks of their finances. They understand living less than they make. They don't like fall into consumer traps. They know that kind of stuff. Um, but the other like big differentiator is I think the people that end up staying in a sound financial place, they really understand the emotions of fear and greed and they understand how to recognize when they're being too too fearful or too too greedy. We even see this all the time and and it is it's a mistake that we see a lot of times. A a lot of things seem like they're sort of insignificant, right? Like, oh, I'm going to sign this personal guarantee. It's insignificant. It'll probably never happen. And then you hear this horror story of that happening. Or someone say, "Hey, you know what? I'm gonna claim a deduction on my taxes for this thing or I'm gonna implement this tax strategy. We actually have this going on right now where folks that did some like very very aggressive tax strategies around conservation easements are now being called to the table and they're now having to pay back >> years, hundreds of thousands of dollars of tax benefit that they took along with interest and penalties. And so it's understanding it's it's okay to be fearful when others are greedy and it's okay to be greedy when others are fearful, but it's never okay to be too fearful or too greedy. And if you fall in that camp, you often get yourself to a really bad spot. >> What what makes me sad about some like these conservation easements is a good example is every decade because you think about oil and gas, you know, partnerships and every decade seems like they have situations where >> even the adviserss who are supposed to keep you safe, the attorneys, the accountants, they fall into the scope and prey to this as well because they get all frothy and excited because they usually are getting a cut. And so, you know, whenever you get the money involved, it changes motivations. And so we knew a lot of CPAs that were out there pushing this stuff because they they were they were profitable, but it never passed the sniff test. >> Can you explain exactly what these are? Conservation easements, oil and gas, and the recent one that we've been hearing a lot is investing in movies. Yeah, I was trying to get to the film credits or investing cuz film credits are different than the actual investments. >> Is it film credits? >> I don't know. >> We're from the state of Georgia and it's not uncommon, by the way. It used to be even better. um film credits you used to cuz realize these film industry gets so many credits from um the states because they're trying to incentivize these films to be you know filmed in their state because it's very competitive tons of jobs >> um creates jobs a lot of lot of economic stuff so it's not uncommon that you can they they have so many credits for making these movies that they sell the credits out on the market and this is all completely legal and usually is I've seen that it's changed over the years last time I was buying credits I think I was getting a five to 6% discount. Um, so yeah, you you're instead of paying dollar for dollar on your taxes, you pay 95 cents on a dollar and and if you're paying enough in taxes that that 5% delta can be a pretty good thing. That's not necessarily a scam. Um, uh, you might be thinking about private placements or people investing in films because we we've dealt with that too that those those are like most things. They could turn out great or they could be moonshots and they could turn out bad. But conservation easements because that was your initial question. What these things were doing back in the day when they came on the scene is that that part of the tax provision was you could go take property um put together a group of people and then you would put it in a conservation and and the government >> of like raw undeveloped land >> raw undeveloped land and then and what was in the brochure was is that the government is going to allow you to take the best use of this property and since you're putting an easement we'll give you the tax deduction like a charitable contribution for this higher value. So, it wasn't uncommon that you'd see people putting a $100,000, meaning an investor would put $100,000 in a conservation easement, but then take a $400,000 charitable deduction on their taxes. You quickly probably are doing the math in your head, and you're going, "Wait a minute, that means they're getting a bigger tax benefit than even what they economically put into the deal." But they were they were leaning very heavily on that the government was giving you a deduction on the best use. So they would go put together, they would have all these consultants who would go do all this analysis, create these packages of paper, supposedly be all protected where they'd have attorneys and accountants, and they say, "No, this property, we could put apartments here. We could put, you know, all kind of crazy madeup, you know, meanwhile, it's just land >> or or or it's uh or it's swamp land or watershed land that you can't actually develop on." And they were saying that, "Oh, you can't." You can imagine the IRS has had an issue with this and they've now come the the chickens have come home to roost and and they're now going after a lot of these deals and making people pay back the deals. We're kind of having to look at for some clients that that kind of did these things. Um is you have to pay the the the you know you owe you you get to take the charitable contribution on what you put in, but you're having to pay taxes and then a 10% pill. >> So what are the worst things to do on your taxes? >> Uh lie would be a real big one. Don't do that, right? Like if you actually have something on your taxes, don't try to not report income that you had, right? Like you've had income, make sure you report it. And then be careful taking all these crazy deductions. We'll see people who say, "Oh, well, I went and bought the Range Rover because I need it for my business." And you're like, "Okay, well, what business are you in?" "Oh, well, I'll work from home." "Oh, okay. Well, do you go see clients?" "No, no, no." And you start going down this line, they're like, "Well, that's not a justifiable business expense." You don't actually operate in a business where that should have been deductible. So you see people getting super super great or even spinning up businesses that aren't actually business at all. They're just things that they're running expenses through trying to create losses. Well, if those losses are material and you don't actually have a profitable business, then that's not a business. It's a hobby and you're not going to be able to deduct those things. So people who get so aggressive doing that, so aggressive trying to reduce their tax bill illegitimately, that's the big thing that you want to do don't want to do on your taxes. Um, I I look at it in terms of like big mistakes that I see or honesty is a big part of it. I mean, because I will tell you I I used to work in public accounting. I've represented clients before the IRS before >> and working with clients on audits is one of the most humbling things out there because you're scared to death. I mean, because that's why, let me give some general advice. If you ever get a full audit, I'm not talking about just a letter sent to you. I'm talking about want no, the agent actually wants to come down and see your business or see the property or whatever. You don't represent yourself. If you represent yourself, you're in a heck of a situation because the agent can ask you any question and if and you're supposed to answer because you're the taxpayer. If you hire somebody, please hire somebody. I would hire somebody for myself is because if they ask a question of your attorney or your CPA that's representing you, if they don't know the answer, they're going say, I'm going have to go back to my client and ask the question and and it stops the question right there for followup later. But if you don't answer it, you can imagine that looks shady and they and you know and audits can mushroom, you know, they they go three years back unless they find fraud, then they can go even further. Um, but they can mushroom from your business to your personal taxes and all kind of other. So, you're in a very danger danger situation. And that's why I always tell people be honest on your taxes. I mean, I'm all about maximizing deductions, but don't do it so gray or so shady that as soon as you get the the notice that you're under an audit that you you you start crying. I mean that and that's the that's the situ because they can take your stuff. I mean very few things do you have to worry about um just straight up your ability to function anymore. That's why we we are always nervous IRS SEC other things. We want to be as compliant as possible because they take away your ability to to to do businesshood and your livelihood. So you need to take that with seriousness. Now let's take away the scare stuff. I do think most people, if you're a business owner and you start having success, really do spend some time understanding business structure. That's a that's a big no-brainer because you can there's ways you structure your business in a really good way that legally and honestly can can have some long-term benefits. I also tell people that um I would focus on, you know, all the different like real estate, you know, at some point if you have enough success that you're even going we always talk about step eight of the financial order of operations. Like we own commercial real estate. I think anybody who's like a service provider like a dentist, um an attorney, a CPA, at some point you're probably going to want to buy the building that you have your business. It's crazy to pay rent to somebody when you go buy your own building and then you pay yourself rent. You do cost se cost segregation, take accelerated depreciation. There's all kind of cool things. That's all completely legal. But if you don't know how this stuff works, you you you don't know how to maximize those opportunities. So, you mentioned that a lot of people when they start making a lot of money get the shiny object syndrome and they want to go invest in oil and gas or movies or this sort of thing. They want to do the rich person thing because they just became a rich person, >> right? How would you recommend someone adjust their approach to finances when you take someone who's a low earnner and they're just starting their journey and then you take someone who's comfortable and they're like halfway through their journey and then you actually take someone who's wealthy by most definitions and they're at that point now where they can afford, you know, whatever they want. >> Well, I think one of the things that happens is I think the mindset is people do this like apple cart turnover. Hey, I I used to invest in my 401k and my Roth IRA and I built up to a million dollars, but oh man, now that I'm here at a million dollars, I've got to do something completely different. I got to change my strategy. I got to pursue something else. And we always say, don't forget to dance with the one that br you. The thing that got you from zero to 100,000 and from 100,000 to a million and from a million to 10 million can be the same that it continues on. You may just start adding stuff to it. Uh I may have a really healthy diversified portfolio across lowcost index funds, but I want to get into real estate. So maybe I go buy my first rental property or I go buy raw land or I go buy a commercial property. It's not like I'm changing the strategy. I get to kind of add on to the strategy, but the same rules apply. I want to be disciplined. I don't want to over lever. I don't want to get too far ahead of my skis. I don't want to take on too much risk. You just do those same sort of things whether you're at the beginning or kind of at that I'm at the middle point or even at the end. It's not about changing strategy. It's about adjusting and altering strategy. Well, I I mean I think it's a great question, but it's also more of a philosophical on money in general. I mean I I one of the things that's why that's one of the things when we were designing financial order of operations is that you're going to have a change in your journey just because we could apply this to expenses too is you know if you have a a limited net worth of say under $100,000 a 1% on that $100,000 is is just it's it's you know for on $10,000 it's $100 on $100,000 it's and check my math I'm doing math it's $1,000 you you know your expenses start changing drastically cuz you know when you're when you're under $10,000 every dollar you spend matters. When you get to $100,000 now you okay you can go on vacation and it's okay you can eat out you know when you get to your first million okay now your car can be a little nicer. Well it's kind of the same way on your tax and your investment journey as well is it doesn't have to change all at once but you you just see that your your journey will change. That's why I'm telling you, you can start off simple, but complexity will naturally find you because as you have more and more success, at some point you're going to have to look at your estate plan. At some point, you're going to have to look at, you know, yes, you're going to be maxing out. Look at four employer plans. How often? We've even had some content creators, they know who they are. They're going to watch this because they're friends of both of us because they've called us and gotten some advice and then they follow up and then they they never hire us on it, but they get the free advice from us. when we start talking about hey what's the difference between like a solo 401k and then when you graduate to a traditional 401k but then how about when we bolt on a profit sharing plan and then what's this thing about a cash balance plan these are all things that are just you don't start there but you grow into them as you have more and more success and then what about balancing then risk and speculation versus capital preservation when do you kind of slide along that scale to really look into asset protection at what dollar amount and then when you are in the the phase of your life, maybe you're like very young, you're 18, 19, you're starting to make a little bit of money, you could maybe scr up an extra $200 a month, could you just put that in a 3x leveraged ETF instead of doing something else? >> There's a problem with those those triple leverage. >> You could do that. You could and and you could argue, hey, oh yeah, you're young and you've got plenty of time. You can be as aggressive. But I would argue one of the big things is you while you might think that might be being aggressive, what you're really doing if you take that extra $200 you scrge up and you're doing the 3x triple levered instead of just buying S&P 500 inside your Roth IRA, the time that you're missing out on those dollars compounding over the next 40 or 50, 60 years can be huge because yeah, maybe the triple levered thing works, but because of time decay, if you don't actually catch it on momentum and catch it at the right time, you're not actually going to make any money on those. They don't work. You don't think, oh, okay, the S&P 500 makes 10% annualized per year. I'm just going to go buy a triple levered ETF and I'm gonna make 30% per year. That's the mathematics don't actually work that way. So, how how you approach risk can change. And don't misuse. There's nothing wrong with speculation. A lot of people think, oh, you can't spec you can, but it should be with a small portion of your portfolio and not at the beginning. Like when you speculate, you want to speculate with vacation money, not with grocery money, because if you start doing with grocery money, you get yourself into a really bad spot. So, I think that having riskier investments is okay so long as you have the foundation built out and you're doing the things you're supposed to be doing on the baseline and then you want to add in that more aggressive. >> Well, and I'll even take it to life. I do think young people I mean when you're when you're in your 20s that is the time take some risk because I mean if you fail you're already so close to the starting line how much are you losing you know on that? There's a lot of endeavors and other things and I think that you can I I don't want you to go crazy with it, but if you have something that you think you're world class in, I I I do think people I mean that's where how we've ended up here. I mean, it's an oddball thing to start a podcast in 2006. It's an oddball thing to to go out and start a business. Um, so I like those things, but then I will tell you I do like just small decisions. I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth because I say go to go think boldly in those terms. But I think in terms of your money, I love just index funds because it's so simple. You don't have to put a lot of effort into it. The the I I do believe in this concept of law of accelerating returns. As technology is accelerating faster and faster and as long as we don't create the the the robots that kill us, we're going to make more and more money. So if you can start investing, you don't have to try to pick the winners. You just buy the market. buy the market in general because the expansion is naturally going to create success and opportunity. Um, but I do think as you get older, I'm unfortunately the oldest person in the room. Um, I'm now I'm now over the 45 age that I talk about in a lot of our content is that I think it's okay to be completely debtree post 45 because you just don't have the multiplier effect on your money like you did when you're in your 20s. And also you now if you've won the game, meaning you have enough money that you could do what you want when you want, why run up the scoreboard? Why not dial down some of the risk? Because if you're not if you're not missing out. So like I paid off my mortgage. >> Um you know, so it doesn't mean I'm debtree. >> Paid off a 2.75% mortgage. >> 2 and a2% >> last two and a half% down to 42,000 last week. >> It was down to $42,000. I mean my monthly payment look at the point at the beginning of the year I was at like 100,000 but literally my monthly payment was knocking this thing down. It only said I saved a few months because I mean the monthly payment was just crushing and the hassle factor plus you don't know our audience >> I get a lot of pressure going how do you still have a mortgage? I was like you're right what am I doing the hassle factor at some point if you do the multiplication on 2.5% on four $40,000 it was the squeeze of the fruit just wasn't worth it. >> I did that with my car. Mhm. >> Yeah. I had a 3 something% interest rate, a 3.3% interest rate on the Tesla. And it got down to a point where just even filing that like little tax interest pay. It just wasn't even worth it. I just paid it off. It's so annoying. >> But I I do think early on in the journey 20s, 30s, 40s, you don't have to focus on capital preservation. I don't think you have to have like a super conservative portfolio. If you've done the right things, right? If you have an emergency fund that can cover 3 to 6 months of your living expenses, if something were to happen in your work life where you didn't have an income coming in, I think it's okay to be a lot more aggressive with your portfolio. You can have a super heavy equity portfolio, but once it gets to a critical mass, once it's a million, million and a half, $2 million portfolio, it is a lot less about how much money you make and it's more about how much you get to keep over the long term. And I think that's where the shift begins to happen. Although, really quick before we go into that, something I've noticed with running the podcast for more than 5 years now, is that staying organized, especially with partnerships, is a full-time job in and of itself. Like, you've got notes, emails, conversations, follow-ups, it adds up fast. But that's where today's sponsor, Pipe Drive, comes in. 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Thank you so much to Piperive for sponsoring this episode. So, you mentioned a million, million and a half, 2 million. On the topic of capital preservation, I have a friend who's selling his business and he's probably going to sell it for like low eight figures. He wants to take all of that money, all of it, and put it in Bitcoin. He already owns a lot of Bitcoin. He's made a lot of money in Bitcoin. And I told him, I'm like, realistically, I feel like, I mean, I don't have this amount of money, but I feel like life doesn't change that much after like four to five to6 million. And like, you should probably focus on capital preservation if it's if you're going to take a massive risk, do it with money over $10 million or something like that. And he's like, "Yeah, but I still want to put it in Bitcoin." What would you say is the optimal amount of money to have? Is it four, five, six million? After what point does it really start to like degrade? Well, we have so we have a uh a client who is really good friends uh with a billionaire and he was out having uh he was having >> some adult beverages >> drinks with this billionaire and he said, "Hey, man, you've had so much success. You sold your company last year for like $900 million. Uh what's rich? Like what I mean here you can have anything in the world, any sort of private jet, anything you want. What do you consider rich?" And he said, "Honestly, 10 million bucks." Because once you have 10 million bucks in the bank, even if you're not very good at managing and you just make 5% on that, it's half a million dollars a year can make every year. And it's kind of hard to spend half a million a year if you're debtree, right? So if you have 10 million bucks, that's kind of the threshold. Now, that's from the perspective of a billionaire. I think most folks, if you have a couple million dollars invested, a lot of people just don't have lifestyles that are that big, right? So if you have four million, $5 million, there's pretty good chance you're going to be financially independent in most parts of this country, at most lifestyles. Now for your guy, I I don't think it's as much about capital preservation or maybe it's a flavor of that. It's more about diversification. >> It's concentration. What if what if Bitcoin doesn't work? What what if something happens and there's some shift and all the hype doesn't pan out and you had all of your net worth tied up in there? Not just a couple millions of dollars you already own, but the couple of million plus the 10 million, you've already won the game. or if you haven't won the game, you've rounded third and you're coming close to home plate. Do you really need to start showboating between third and home? Or is the risk just not worth it? Why not diversify across real estate assets or income producing securities or a diversified portfolio or just have money sitting in a high yield money, whatever that thing may be for you. putting it all in Bitcoin is betting all of your wad on this one outcome, then if it doesn't happen, why why take that risk? >> Before before I went out on my own, I worked at another firm and we worked with a lot of Lucent Technology executives and a lot of people probably don't even remember what Lucent was, but Lucent was >> was no it was the highf flyier of the 90s. I mean, if you go and look it up, it was a Fortune 500. I mean, it was it was you couldn't lose with this investment. And and I've unfortunately dealt with executives who have won the game, but because they were overly concentrated, they've watched that wealth turn to to pretty much nothing. And that's what I would I would I would ask your friend is have you thought about because some of this is systemic risk you have for going back to poor. >> Um why if you've won the game, is there a is it a responsible thing to even leave that risk sitting out there? is that I at a minimum carve off what you would need for a safe withdrawal rate to to to keep that diversified and safe or even liquid. I mean, if if you don't like, you know, traditional investments, that might even be something you want to consider just keeping liquid. Um, that would be a better play because I've just I I think he's not thinking about the emotional toll it would take to go from winning the game and having tremendous success and taking it down to zero. That would that would destroy you. Kevin Olirri said on the Diary of the CEO podcast that he keeps five million in cash >> at all times and that's it. doesn't touch it, but that mentally for him know that no matter what happens with the pot, that's my and I think and even even if you're not a billionaire, I think a lot of us can it's it's why we tell um even retirees who have now are in financial independence and they're living off of their assets. If you can just keep like 18 to 24 months of your living expense in liquid cash, what you've done is you've given yourself a 24-month runway that no matter what the economy throws, no matter if there's a global pandemic, a real estate crash, uh tariffs, you know, stuff in the Euro zone, whatever that is, you've given yourself enough time that you can give your portfolio time to recover. You can weather that storm if you have that cash there. It's the same sort of idea, just on a smaller scale. So again, I don't I think throwing it all in Bitcoin is just h that's insane. I think at Kevin's level that's probably just a nice safety net for him for peace of mind. But I I will sell and I cover this in millionaire mission too is that I think cash excess cash now don't mishar me for anybody who's just starting your journey just get the steps one and four which is basically an emergency reserves and I want you to get in the Roth and everything else but I think once you reach a certain level of success right right around step eight there's nothing wrong with having extra cash because cash can be a tremendous wealth builder too because if you keep some excess cash what happens when everybody else is out of cash think about every time we've had a collapse or a market downturn because people cut it so thin and most people are not walking around with the right type of emergency reserves. They're not, you know, protecting their levered assets, right? So, as soon as the the the oxygen leaves the room, meaning cash people all of a sudden the deals, that's when the deals are out there. How did we get this building that we're filming this in was right after the pandemic. The owner was secondguing because he had gotten an offer the previous year and he was like, "Man, I should have sold it." and we were able to come in and and I and I now it looks like the deal of a lifetime, but it's because there was enough fear in the marketplace that that cash if we didn't have it, it wouldn't have we wouldn't have been able to do the deal. And that's what a lot of people will look at success and think it was luck. But I'm telling you, it was it really is that intersection of opportunity and preparation. And sometimes cash, you can buy assets that you never thought possible because nobody else has cash. Do you think we're going to have another instance like that in the near future? Because a lot of people are talking now that we're in a debt bubble. The only reason the market's going up is because interest rates have been going down. We've been printing a ton of money. How long could this be sustainable for? >> You I I'm I'm willing to say I don't know, but I'm willing to say it's happened enough in my lifetime that yes, it will happen again. Because also, like I detailed already earlier, I have a buddy. We bought Apple in the great recession only a few thousand bucks that in his portfolio never sold it. It's worth close to half a million dollars now. Um that is and so we always see when markets get detached from value there's tremendous opportunity to make money and that that's going to happen. I don't know if it's going to be in real estate. I don't know if it's in the stock market but having dry powder money after you've kind of won the game and other things can be very rewarding. But where do you tell people who say the market's too high right now? I shouldn't be investing cuz I'm going to wait for an opportunity like that. >> That's scary, especially if they have no financial foundation. >> Well, and we because you don't know when it's going to happen, right? I mean, we know that every decade there's about two downturns roughly. But we do know that as we sit here in 2025 right now, we just had a major bare market in 2022 where the market was down. So, we just came through a pretty big correction and that was the longest correction that we've seen since the Great Recession. So 2008 early 2009 market was down pretty solid run there. I mean yeah we had fourth quarter of 2018 bare market we had co but it was like a very quick blip and then we saw 2022 which was a down year. We're only a few years removed from that. So yeah there will certainly be another downturn. But if you look at the layout and and first trust has an amazing illustration on this that shows from the 1950s all the way till now and every bare market and every bull market that we've seen and it shows how severe the bare market is relative to how robust the bull market is and it shows the tenure of the bare market which on average is like 11 months relative to the tenure of the bull market which is like four years and it doesn't even compare. It's not even close. And so what you don't recognize is that more money is likely lost trying to avoid the next downturn than if you were to actually just participate in the next downturn and stay through it and just kind of drive through it. Uh and I think a lot of people who sit on the sidelines, they wait and they wait and they wait and they wait and finally, right when things feel good, right when they finally say, "Okay, now I have an extreme level of confidence. Market just hit a new all-time high. Now I'm going to go to work." And then they invest and then the downturn happens. >> Well, and if you I've I've gotten reamed in the market. Every single time I put money in, I get absolutely rinsed. >> Do you know how you know how we solve for that? I'll tell I'll tell I'll I'll tell you our biggest secret in the world. You ready? Then I don't know if you know this. You know how we we can solve that. That will not happen to you again. Dollar cost average. >> Always be buying if you automate the process. And then like I said, when you're building the financial foundation, when you're loading up the Roth IAS, maxing out your 401ks, it what I love about an automated process, there's no emotion in it. you just automatically know what's happening. >> I was dollar cost averaging. The problem was that I was I had been dollar cost averaging a certain amount for like a year and a half, two years and my income continued going up and I was like, okay, cool. Like I get to build my savings. Like the rates were decently high over the past couple of years. Okay, nice. That's fine. And then the savings got to be at a certain point where I was like, this is, you know, dumb. I shouldn't have this much money in cash. And so I dumped it all in in January. >> Well, again, you here's what I would have done differently. Let's say I don't know your number, but let's say you were dollar cost to averaging $1,000 every month, but all of a sudden your cash built up and need to put it to work. Okay, increase it from a,000 to $10,000 a month, right? >> No, I I I I was like I did five like just >> Yeah, that's deposits and it it literally like I mean I I bought at the >> like the day my average my average cost was VP and see that's where I think >> like down to the hour >> you could but but also but also you're at your age right now you are young enough all of us are >> still going to be a winner. Most of us in this room are young enough that even if you get at the very high >> three of us are young enough even if you get at the world's worst time. >> Oh, I'm up since then. It's exactly right. Like you we study we do we do an exercise we show in the show all the time where we look at what if you were the world's worst investor and what that means is that you started in like 1980 and all you did is you built up cash built up cash built up cash and then at the very peak right before every bull market or every bare market you invested. So I invest at the top of 2007 and then right before fourth quarter of 2018 you build up in cash and you just dumped at the world's worst time, world's worst time. Even that investor over a 30 40 year period doing it at the absolute worst time possible still ended up with a huge portfolio because if you can give it enough time, you don't have to be right all that often. You just have to be in you just have to participate in the market. Uh and it's really hard to not be successful. >> That's good to know. So, we spoke a lot about obviously high amounts, large sums of money in investments. I mean, we're talking about like four, five, $6 million. This is all of course contingent upon having some sort of an income. Sure. Where would you say are the best opportunities today for anybody watching right now? They could be young, they could be middle-aged, they could be a little on the older end, any opportunity to make a lot of money. Recently, I actually had an air conditioning issue and I called over this guy and he just runs a small little operation. and he's been in it for about 8 8 years. >> 8 years. >> And he he got into it because of his brother. 2 years in, he got a job after some schooling and doing some small internships. Uh and he was making 80K after 2 years. And then he started his own business. And now he says, "If you're really bad at installing air conditioning units and running a small little HVAC company, you're going to be making 50K a year. If you're okay and you know what you're talking about, you're going to be in the six figures." Mhm. Well, I I can tell you just from working in public accounting that some of our biggest clients were service businesses. I'm talking about people cuz if you're really good at at servicing air conditioners, you can go set up a crew and then a second crew and then a fourth crew and then a fifth crew and then all of a sudden you have a business is worth a lot of money because it scales and so definitely I mean those are good behaviors. I would look we have this whole AI thing coming and and and this I don't I don't know if he's here. >> Yeah, it's here. I don't know if Bo is going to agree or disagree. I think that what it's going to push is it's going to commoditize some forms of intelligence. It's going but it's going to make value in community that much more and I think it's also going to put a lot of value on emotional intelligence. You were talking about earlier sales. Um I completely agree with that. I think if you are a person that likes people and you like being around people and you're good at networking that is going to be amplified in this new AI world because yes, it will be able to write letters. Yes, it will be able to answer your question on the fly, but nothing is going to be able to create human connection and um community like those skill sets and it's like you said just Jack with the the heat and air repair the all those type of behaviors are always going to be somewhat valuable until we get robots which we I don't think we're there yet. We might have artificial intelligence but still the execution of the the heat and air repair. I would be mindful of that stuff. I wouldn't go run up a bunch of student loan debt on some of these majors that I'm worried if they're going to be as viable as they've been in the past. >> Yeah, I think I think if you can do services, that's going to be a viable valuable place to sort of plug in. But I do think artificial intelligence is changing things. It's changing what's valued out there in the marketplace. So if you had a kid 15, 20 years ago and you told them, hey, you need to get into programming, you need to get into coding, there's a really good chance they did really well. like they got placed, they got into a really great spot. I don't know now that I would tell someone that that's the place to go forward because these tools that we have at our disposal have now made them so it's so much easier to do those kinds of vocations and trades. So like I have three young kids. I'm telling them I really want them to focus on interpersonal skills. I think that one of the things that's going to be so valuable for them growing up is if they can communicate with another human being and meaningfully connect with that other human being, I think that that's going to be a skill set that's going to be a little bit lost. So if you can teach them how to interact with other folks, I think that's going to be something moving forward that would be very very valuable. Now right now today if you want to make a lot of income, uh anything that even remotely touches artificial intelligence is super huge. I mean we had an amazing uh guy who came and he was in that world and he came and worked here because he really wanted to be a financial adviser and he was unbelievably smart. He started with us. He was a fantastic employee but his former boss kept calling him every day, hey, you got to come back. you got to come back. You got to come back. You got to come back. And because of a number of different reasons, he finally said, "Hey guys, they made me an offer. I couldn't walk away. I mean, it's silly what they're telling me that they're going to pay me to go do the job that I was doing, but that's how valuable, how marketable it is right now." >> Well, Zuckerberg, you know, what's he offering? $100 million. >> I thought it was billion dollar. >> It might be I think it was 100 million to a billion. I I didn't want to put the range on it, but I did hearing you say that >> it was a$1.5 billion dollar contract was the largest. Now there's there's a phase out period of that stock and but still a compensation package of one and a half billion. >> It it's interesting times. It really is and I think you need to be very we all I I am I know we make fun of my age but it is interesting. I was I've been around for when the personal computer came on the scene the internet um then podcasting YouTube and all that stuff. And what's funny is that every time I've lived through all these big seismic shifts, I've often, you know, the first times I just lived through them. I lived through the personal computing internet, I was at least old enough now to where I was like, hey, there's money being made right now on this whole internet concept. And it seemed like anything with.com on it was crushing it. Now look, there was a lot of, you know, bad things that happened there, but but there were opportunities. And then I saw the same thing. That's why I jumped on podcasting and then when YouTube, we've seen these seismic shifts. I think there's a lot of money potential to make money um off of these technology changes that are coming. >> How would you do that? >> Well, I think one of the things that we're talking about is don't try to fight against it. Don't don't in our opinion, don't be the person that said, "Oh, artificial intelligence is not going to touch me. It's not going to affect me. I'm inoculated from that." We think the people that are going to come out on the other end of this are people who recognize how to utilize it and use it as a tool to basically expand and increase your scope. So, I don't want to be someone who says, "Oh, no. I don't need AI because I'm so good and it'll never replace me. I'm trying to figure out how can I use artificial intelligence to expand what I can do from a 100x to a thousandx to 10,000x. And I think people who figure that out are going to be able to capitalize. I mean, complex systems are about to get a lot more easier to to to set up and structure because you're going to have this agent through the artificial intelligence that can kind of work on that. So, I don't look if I had all the products figured out, I would, you know, I'd be doing that myself. We do have one product some things we're working on. It's not ready for public consumption yet, but we're thinking about it and and we're going and I think the thing that I'm most proud about is that we have so much data for because we've been doing this since 2006. And that's that's what a lot of your app creators are are are probably realizing like think about if you're Salesforce, there's a good chance that the CRM might not be as valuable, but the data that that has been gathered for these decades is going to be the product that the AI is going to be able to become much more. You've got to think in those terms because I think applications and other things are going to not not be what the the value point is in the future because these agents can make that for your entity because of the artificial intelligence doing it for you. >> And what do you think the downsides are? >> Well, I mean it's always I always you think about when when Elon was talking about the semi-truck and you think about how many over the road truckers there are if we priced out I mean and when you started just robots were driving all the tractor trailers across the country. There's a whole group of people that you worry what what do they do from a labor. I I remember when was it Andrew Yang was talking about this personal, you know, um income that everybody ought to be guaranteed for. I I I thought that stuff was crazy and I still I'm not I'm a big fan, but I'm starting to get why these technology and these really smart people were talking about this because there is risk that some of these things are going to be so disruptive that there's industries that what happens and that's the part that I'm not smart enough to know the answer, but it's something we all ought to be kind of thinking about because I I do worry about whole broad industries being impacted. My worry is more so that critical thinking goes out the window. And even for me, I've I've used chat GBT probably 10 times a day. I really enjoy it. I'll have conversations with it. I'll get its opinion on things. But when I'm doing research, >> when I go and and look at those independently, a lot of times I'll find that it's just like flatout incorrect. Like it's stating things as fact. And then when I go and do my own research on that, >> I turn out, wait a second, this isn't true. And I'll tell ChatGBT, hey, this isn't true. This thing never actually happened. Oh, yes, you're correct. That didn't actually happen. >> Scary, which is really scary. No, we we have the same problem. The one big beautiful bill, the Trump accounts. >> Yeah. >> So, we we you know, we're creating content on this and if you use any of the the GPTs, you take your choice. They all screwed up the Trump accounts because a draft of the bill initially had that education, homeownership, and starting a small business was going to have some favorable treatment. And some big that's what I thought. Some big accounts have come out and they put that in the if you actually go read the bill that got signed into law. That stuff's not in there. And we kept having the the when we were cuz we were factecking it using GPT, you know, chat GPT and stuff. And he was like, "No." And I was like, "Give me the actual language." And then I put that in Google and it went back to the draft bill and I was like, "Son of a gun, this thing is not using the real legislation. It's still going back to a proposal." >> Set the record straight because that was my assumption that you could use that towards qualified expenses and then that's taxed. >> It's basically going to be an IRA. >> Okay. >> Um that they're going to that you can put up to $5,000 there. If your child's born between what, January 2025 through 2028, um they're going to put $1,000 in um but it's going to be treated like an IRA. It's there's no capital gains taxations until 18 and after 18 >> all those age stratifications. They're not they they didn't make it into the final bill. >> Why not just do a normal taxable account for your child? >> Here's what's going to end up happening is that if you have a child in that window, take advantage of the $1,000. Nob brainer. Free money. Take advantage of what the government's putting together. But there's a better way to probably structure those accounts with custodial accounts, 529 accounts. >> That's what I thought. Because then if they're under the capital gains limit anyway, 0%. So I would just be continually every year you just harvest those gains. >> You nailed it. That's exactly >> I think you know when they're negotiating tax legislation. There's a lot of horse trading that goes on and that obviously somehow there was a funding mechanism that they were trying and it just it got cut and everybody in the financial community missed it. >> I missed it. >> Yeah. And you you another downside I think to artificial intelligence is is I think that criminals are continued going to be unbelievably enterprising. And so I think the ability even to protect your information even protect yourself is going to become more and more difficult. I mean it's already hard now to you know remember when like fishing emails used to be really bad and it was like broken English and not good. Well now you look at the type of emails that are coming out and it's they're pretty compelling. And I think that AI is only going to get better and better and better at deceiving and being deceptive when criminals use it in a nefarious manner. So I think we're going to have to build systems. And generally speaking, when advances in technology happens, the nefarious folks are always a little bit ahead of the folks that are on the up and up. So it'll take a while for uh companies that are trying to combat that to get out and catch up to where the criminals are. So I worry about some of that stuff, even just changing the way that we protect ourselves from the world around us. Yeah, those uh voice uh calls, they're able to fake them. >> I've heard stories where the scammer will pretend to be like the daughter. I'll call the father. >> I need you to send me 500 bucks. >> I'm in a bind right now. I just needed I'm kidnapped or something like that and they'll send the money. >> It's terrifying. Terrifying. >> I'm curious which opinion on personal finance and money has gotten you guys the most criticism? >> Well, it depends on from what group of people. Like, you know, there's some there's some there's some folks who they have their guy and they follow their guy and they love their guy and if you say anything counter to their guy, they're going to kind of like fight and argue against that. And I think what's really interesting is a a lot of our views I don't really think are like super super controversial. It's just like, you know, some people say, "Hey, you can't use credit cards ever. No way, no how." And if that's the way you want to operate in your personal finances, that's totally okay. We're not going to fight you. We're going to say that's acceptable. Our view is that credit cards are something that can be used if you're responsible and you don't carry a balance, you understand what you're doing. And so it's not really something that like is controversial, but if you fall on the other end of that, you don't like hearing us say that that's an okay thing for you to do. >> Yeah. I mean, I don't think there's anything that we've done that's super controversial other than we battle the the the line in the sand because look, there's there's we're we're kind of in the middle. You got Dave over here who's kind of a debt crusader. And I'm not I'm not against that because I think if you're somebody who's at the beginning of your journey and you have tremendous amounts of debt on your on your net worth statement, if you're even tracking a net worth, then yeah, you should watch every dollar and you probably if you have a bad relationship, if you look at how many people don't pay their credit cards every month, those people if you're carrying a credit card balance at 20 plus percent, you shouldn't be using credit cards. But then on the other side and and I'm not going to give their names cuz I don't want to give them, you know, the but we have the the the leverage bros that are out there, you know, telling everybody go lever lever lever um to till the cows come home. And and that's just not not our game either because there's it personal finance is very personal. So we try to give everybody the the best path, but also tell you the the the the variables that will change so that you can make the best decision. That's why we always say it depends a lot. I hate saying that, but I just I know that everybody's, you know, structure or their accounts are going to be a little bit different. >> So, who should hire a financial adviser if it's really as simple as just buying an index fund consistently? >> Yeah, I think well, that's so it's interesting you, even the way you frame that question. Hey, well, why should I hire a financial adviser if it's as easy as buying an index fund? Well, buying an index fund is just one part of the financial planning process. It's the investment part. And I think most people be surprised here. We don't think that everyone needs a financial advisor. With all the information out there on podcasts and YouTube channels and books and blogs, there's so much great free information out there that a lot of people can self-manage for a long time. They don't really need to pay a professional. Generally, when a financial adviser begins to make sense are generally one of three things begin to happen. One is the gravity of your decisions become so big that you begin to feel uncomfortable. Okay, if I if I make a 10% mistake on $10,000, it's not going to change my life. If I make a 10% mistake on a million dollars, well, now I'm starting to impact my livelihood. Now, that might be more than I save in a year, more than I make in a year. So, the decisions become really big. Or maybe life just becomes complicated, right? like you have uh you used to have a two-page tax return and now you have a 100page tax return or you might have options and RSUs and ESP or you are wondering about what your estate documents should look like and you have all these different questions and you just don't know what you don't know. You're an expert in your field in your vocation but you don't know all the financial planning stuff and so you want to make sure you're talking with someone who does know that to make sure that all of your eyes are dotted and all of your tees are crossed. Or number three, and we see this all the time, maybe you're super super smart and you can do it on your own and the complexity doesn't even really frighten you, but what you found is you just don't have time to put the energy and effort and attention into it that you would like to. And so naturally, because you have all these other things going on, personal finances falls on the back burner. So most of our clients, most of the folks who listen to our show, they reach out, they find themselves in one of those three places and they say, "Okay, I'm I'm at this place and yeah, I've done it great on my own, but man, I'd really love a second set of eyes. I'd love someone who's navigated this next stage that I'm going into and hasn't just done it one time. I want someone who's done it a hundred times so they can tell me, hey, what are the things to look out for? What are the pitfalls I should have?" But if you're a brand new person starting out in your career, it's not super complicated to figure out, hey, I need to make a good income, live on less than I make, follow the financial order of operations, put my money to work, and every dollar that I can save is going to be way more valuable going into my portfolio or funding my financial goals than paying a financial advisory fee. >> Well, I mean, even in this interview, we've covered quite a few things from a tax policy standpoint, from estate planning standpoint, retirement structure. I mean, these are things you just don't know if you don't know. And then I also think about the brilliant people. We've had quite a few clients that are just geniuses, brilliant, big portfolios. They're bringing us on just because they know that if they pass away, who's the backup? Who's their spouse go to? So, they've actually brought us in as almost like the insurance policy so they can start introducing the relationship so they they have coverage for the loved one. >> What's the biggest account that you manage like for a single person? Now, I've noticed that one of the hardest parts about eating healthy is just having the right foods available to you when you're hungry. And that is why our sponsor, Cook Unity, is an absolute gamecher. For those unaware, they deliver fully prepared meals by award-winning chefs like legit Food Network stars and James Beard winners. I just got a box with a Mission Style beef burrito, Korean flank steak rice, and a rustic style French beef ragu. And I got to say, every single one was absolutely delicious. And the variety makes it so easy to mix things up and not get bored of what you're eating. 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Shopify is basically your all-in-one business partner. They power millions of businesses worldwide, from major brands like Mattel and Gym Shark to entrepreneurs just getting started. And fun fact, if you've shopped online in the US, there's a really good chance it was through Shopify because they handle about 10% of all American e-commerce. What's great about Shopify is that they give you access to a complete design studio with hundreds of readytouse templates to build a beautiful online store that perfectly matches your brand. There's no coding needed, and their AI tools even help you write product descriptions and enhance your product photos. Shopify also makes marketing extremely easy with simple email and social campaigns to reach customers wherever they're scrolling. Plus, they handle everything from inventory to shipping to returns. Basically, all of the complicated stuff you do not want to deal with. So, if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business ideas into So, sign up for a $1 per month trial at shopify.com/ic all lowercase. You guys can change your life if you just create that business idea you've been sitting on for the past few years. It's just $1 per month to get started. You will not regret giving it a shot. Shopify.com/ic or a link down below in the description. Thank you so much to Shopify for sponsoring this episode. What's the biggest account that you manage like for a single person? >> I mean, we have clients that are worth over $100 million. I mean, it's and we have I mean, you'd be surprised to see that. Yes, we have clients with over $20 million and we're still buying index funds for for those type of clients. I mean because I think that a lot of people there is a level that where you get into family office planning and things like that because we're not bill paying and doing other unique things like that but we are reviewing tax returns. We are making sure account structures and everything are are right and make making sure people are protected from just the things that they don't know. >> And how much do financial adviserss make >> and how are they paid? >> Well, it depends because there's a few different business models, right? So there are generally three distinct business models inside the financial planning world. There are commission-based adviserss who are paid a commission based on some product they sell. So these are generally like people that either sell a commissioned investment products. They sell insurance types and basically the company for whom they work or whom they represent pays them for selling their products out to the consumer. Then there's the other side uh which is fee only and that's where we are. The only way that we get paid is directly from our end client. So if you have a problem or you have some solution that you need, we'll present to you solution one, solution two, solution three, and we don't care which solution you choose cuz we want you to choose the one that's the best for you, the one that's in your best interest. So the only way that we're getting paid is directly from you. Well, even inside of the fee only world, there's a few different ways to get paid. There are subscriptionbased models where uh you pay it like a gym membership. There are retainer based models where it's like a flat fee every year on retainer and there's assets under management models where the adviser gets paid based on the assets that they're helping you manage. And we we work under the assets under management and we we we're unapologetic about it because I think that what I've experienced when people are doing just project based is it can be good but the people they're trying to hurry the process. They're trying to hurry because they know they're on the clock with getting it done. And then we've also see things where how often we have prospects come to us and it looks like a quilt work and I can say hey you were you made this decision in 2017 because this is what was popular back then or even I've seen where family and friends have come to me and I give them some structures and then they disappear for four or five years and I'm like oh my gosh you know we changed that whole process in 2020 and yet you're still stuck on the on there is some value to an ongoing type relationship and that's what so we're unapologetic that we like had structure. That's why we put minimums on what you need to have because it's no different. I have a concierge doctor and I pay a lot of money for this concierge doctor. But for me at my level of success and my health, it's important to to have some to know I always have access to somebody who's going to get me good guidance and keeps me from what I don't know. >> How much is that? >> I pay over $10,000 a year. I don't want to give too many details, but it's >> I I thought you about to say 10,000 a month. I was like, "Oh, wow. >> There are a year. is not bad. >> Like when I look at my own uh health insurance, I pay like $700 a month. >> I don't want them watching this and then like >> that's actually pretty just said we can raise it. >> Well, the concier doctor thing just how does that work? >> Yeah. Uh you still have to have insurance outside of that cuz they're an outside the insurance model. So you pay for that out of pocket. But what they are is they are a personal concierge. Like if I needed if something happened to Danny to get in, I could text him right now and go to his office and I'm in and I'm in and out in 15 minutes. Or if something happens, I need to call, hey, I need you to call in this prescription cuz I got this going on. And it is really nice. Or even if I have something happen and I go in and I see the doctor and I'm like, hey, I've got this going. I'm like, you know what? Uh, yeah, this look doesn't look good. You need to go get an MRI. I need to see the specialist. I'll have my assistant call and make the appointment for you. And then I'll be at the MRI tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. and I'll be in the specialist 2 days. cheaper to pay for things like the MRI just out of pocket in cash. >> We still have insurance so we're still, you know, so we're paying this on top of our insurance and the insurance they still go since they know you have insurance, they're going to run it through the discount platform of the insurance company. >> Oh my gosh. Yeah. I just recently went to the doctor for the first time in a very long time just just for a normal checkup >> and they told me that my plan doesn't have tea health. >> Could you believe it? So, I'm I'm doing blood testing as like a preventative sort of thing. >> And they say, "Okay, for your results, >> we could call you, but you have to make sure that your plan allows for us to call you." And I said, "Well, why wouldn't it's a phone call?" Say, "Well, they they might charge you." I looked at my plan. Believe it or not, they charge you for the phone call. You have to go in person and it's free, but a phone call costs money. The whole system's crazy. >> How does that make any sense? Well, and and if you uh our doctor is a good a good friend of mine and and one of the things it says is a lot of our health care system in this country is set up to be sick care, not health care. We're really good at triaging sick now. Something goes wrong, I got to come see. You just said, "Hey, I haven't been in a long time, but I want to go for this checkup. I have my blood work done every quarter. So that way I can actually see that and be proactive about my health." Because there's no point in having all the success and trying to save money and building towards financial independence if you don't stay healthy enough for long enough to live a really really good life for a really really long time. So we're kind of taking the approach that when it comes to health care we want to be uh forward thinking on that not reactive. Hey I want to know what's going on at this stage of life so that not only is this decade great but am I setting myself up so the next decade and the decade after the decade after are amazing. It's not about >> I I just looked this up. I pay $25,100 a year before insurance kicks in and pays a dime. >> Why are you on such a high deductible plan? >> Because I wanted it for the HSA. >> Yeah, but that high. Holy cow. >> Well, he's probably counting his insurance premiums, right? He's counting his premium. >> Yeah, I'm counting the premium plus the max out of pocket deductible, but I'm thinking for 25,000 a year. >> It's a discount platform. I'm better off just investing it for 20 years and just paying out of I would gladly just pay out of pocket if if I weren't concerned of like >> a catastrophic loss. That's the big thing. >> Just a a cancerous scare and then it's a million dollars. Like that's the only thing I'm afraid >> of a really bad car wreck or something like that. You know what I mean? There are other things that could happen. It's the unknown unknown. So you have to have the catastrophic coverage. But so long as you have a solid enough financial setup, you can do the high deductible plan. I would rather I wish I could just pay 300 bucks a month and that's it and just be covered if it's over $100,000 in like a x amount of years or something like that. >> I I I'll give the perspective that I think that there's a lot of correlations between health and wealth. You know, if you think about a lot of the same things you can say about what you ought to be proactive with your health is the same thing with the way you take care of your wealth. And I know and look, not to get all weird about it, but I'm only three years from when my dad passed away. >> So you can imagine >> when you're that close to when you your father passed away, >> health is very scary for me in a lot of ways. So that's why the concierge doctor and the investment. That's why a lot of people have noticed I've I've lost weight and other things cuz I I had a pastor um when I was in my 30s he said you know when you turn 40 start paying attention because you know it's a fork in the road moment that if you're not cuz he was a close friend too and the fact that he was like you just your body doesn't do everything unless you you start exercising it working it and so I've been trying to continue to stress myself to to work to stay healthy I'm trying to that's why I think we do the same thing for our clients on the financial side is that we're trying to give them the best version of themselves so you're not just having to make desperate decisions, you know, because we want you to be proactive and plan accordingly because at some point we're all going to pass away. I mean, I I hate to ruin it for everybody, but you know, and so you need to plan accordingly and and I'm just trying to make sure I'm as proactive as possible to to extend that as long as possible. >> That's a great idea. I like the concierge doctor. If there are any doctors out there and you're licensed in the state of Nevada, even if you're a specialist, if you're about to get in, >> if you're a dermatologist, if you're anyologist or anything, please DM me because I would love to talk to you. >> Guy is sick in in the head, though. I I not a doctor. >> You're not going to be able to help this guy. >> I remember I had some like skin issue or something and I just posted on my Instagram like does anyone know? And but it's good because the thing is the biggest cheat code is if your neighbor or a close family friend is a doctor. That is crazy cuz it can be a Saturday, a Sunday, you have no idea what's happening. Especially if you're a person that's like a little panicky with health stuff, that right there could diffuse any concern. >> Well, that's why the great thing about concier's medicine is if you do have a relationship with a doctor, it is 24/7, right? So if something happens late at night on a Saturday, you send a text, you get an immediate response from the doctor in the office that's on call. So, it's like a >> You be texting all the time. I just sprained my ankle. How bad is that? >> You mentioned the dermatologist. I went I went in for my last blood draw. I was like, "Hey, everything else going good?" Uh, and he and you know, I sat down with him for like two hours just kind of like going through and he's like, "Hey, when was the last time you had a dermatology screening just to check any moles or what?" I was, "Oh man, it's been years." He's like, "Okay, great. I'll have an appointment set up tomorrow." And literally called, set up an appointment at the dermatologist, go in say it's just that kind of service. Now again, you pay a premium for that, but it's about being proactive cuz I'm like, I don't want some weird thing that I ignore and don't pay attention to to be the thing that takes me out. So, if I can get out in front of it and do the test and stay on top of it and watch what I eat and exercise, well, I'm going to do those things. That's genius. Also, Chad GBT, great for medical stuff. Generally speaking, you upload photos. But anyways, that's besides doctor in go see a professional doctor. >> It's funny. I've used it for the same thing, too. >> Reddit, too. But anyways, that's that's Reddit r/ dermatology questions or whatever. Like, that's pretty good if you have like a questionable mole or something. >> I don't know. Do you remember when you used to go on WebMD and you start reading the symptoms and be like, "Oh my gosh, I have >> I thought I had early onset dementia for a while from WebMD." >> That's the problem when you go unfiltered into the internet and chat GBT again because because it says things so definitively. Oh, well, you said this and this and this and this. That means that ah you have tuberculosis. You're like, "No, no, no. I just have a sore throat." Right? Like, and it's a really hard thing that you want to be careful. >> I ask it odds. What are my odds of this? >> Addiction level 100 like% because it could give you, well, this statistic is like 4% likelihood that you have this and that makes me feel bad. >> But haven't you heard like some people are like leaving their spouses because of chat GPT is giving them bad advice on like relationships and stuff. There's articles out there about this, you know, where you have to be careful. I think we have to be careful because a lot of people are using as counselors and and other things. >> I've used it as counselors, but then again, it's pretty good. Yeah, it's it's fant it's it's able to see things in a way that I would never have seen myself and reframe it. >> Telling it. And if you It's a It wants to make you happy. Have you not noticed how I tell it to be objective? >> Take me out. Take out any bias. Look at the situation objectively. Give me the harsh reality. >> It's gentle. >> Yeah. But but sometimes it'll say you're overreacting. You're doing this. You're doing that. Or sometimes it says no, this is this is this is true and this is and again you ask for its conviction level. But then again, if someone's leaving their spouse because of what they read from chat GBT, I think that signals bigger problems and maybe the spouse is better off without the type of person who would leave them because of chat GBT. So, I would argue it's a net benefit at the end of the day. >> I still go back to the one beautiful bill and how just definitively it thought it was accurate. And I was just like, come on. I'm telling you, you're wrong on this. And it kept me saying, "Nope." And I was, you know, so we do all need to be a little careful with it. >> Can I tell you a really interesting thing? A good buddy of mine, he did this as one of the things he used uh his chat GPT for. He said, "Hey, I want to create a board of adviserss and I want to create a board of adviserss across a number of different subject matters." So, I want uh hey, here's all the people who I really value what they think from a financial perspective and from a medical perspective and from a faith perspective and from a a psychology perspective. And so, he had these six different things. And he spent like two uh 200 hours refining these six different proxy individuals. So, now whenever he goes to make a decision, he'll say, "Hey, Chad, I want to ask my board, what do you think about this?" And he will get six different responses based on these proxy individuals that he met. So, he's created a board of adviserss to help him get a well-rounded like, hey, I want to know what this person, this person, this person, this person, this person, all consolidated with the same ideas. What do they think about this? And so, he's using that to solve a lot of his business problems and a lot of like the hard higher level creative thinking things that he's doing. It's fascinating. I've seen him do it. It's it's pretty wild. I also am curious how Chad GBT could compete with you guys as financial planners or adviserss. A lot of people when you think about you are the CEO of a seven eight figure enterprise if you think about what your 401k and everything well there's a lot of successful people out there what you pay to to kind of expert you know and give you a CFO or somebody who's going to you know help you bounce ideas off of it's just it's better than you throwing up against the wall and asking the computer to give you the answer. Now, maybe it keeps getting better, but I still think we're at the point where most people at that level of success, they're willing to pay that slight, you know, headwind to to to make sure that they're in good hands and that they have access at all times. >> That would be a phenomenal YouTube video, though, if you guys got questions and then like a couple people that wanted to come to you guys for free financial advice, like three people, and then they had a conversation with you and a conversation with Chad Gypt. >> Oh, that would be fantastic. >> That would be a phen. I would love that. >> The money verse Chad Yeah, because financial planning, you know, when it first came on the scene, we tried, but it's gotten much better. So, it' be that would probably be better than it was. >> A lot of it, like you said, really just comes down to the prompts. Like, there are certain things that I've asked it where I've run the numbers myself and realized, oh, wait, I forgot to tell it that I'm in this tax bracket and I have to take this into consideration and I'm like like little nuances that have been >> and now you're getting into the bigger problem. When I used to do taxes, I did tax prep for 16 years. I used to compare and contrast like if you went to there now there's a bunch of brands that you show up with whatever you show up with you're going to walk out without a t with a tax return because they're just they're kind of burn and churn you come in there you know you give them here's what I got whereas I used to go through and one of the things I prided myself is I was trying to find enough deductions for the my clients that I was preparing that I would pay my fee you know I would I would ask them questions I would probe that's not that's the thing because you you're making a great point Graham is that You don't know what you don't know on the questions you should ask or the prompts you should put in there. And it's just not it's not to that point that it's replaced the experience level. >> But I would give it like 3 years and it's going to start asking you questions to give you a more correct answer because it's going to see these mistakes. >> But again, there's still some All right, you can go ask uh chat GPT, "How do I replace a radiator in my automobile?" And it can give you like step-by-step instructions. Here's how you do it. Does that mean that you feel prepared to go take apart your automobile, pull the radiator, and put the radiator in? There's something about a professional who knows what they're doing, a mechanic who actually understands, hey, if something goes wrong in this process or something is unexpected, I know that I have someone that can help me navigate and guide that so that I don't ruin this automobile or in your financial life so that I don't make some cataclysmic mistake that I didn't recognize. There's not some blind spot I didn't account for. >> Well, I mean, you make a good point. the consolidation like if you if you've talked to our administrative team bringing assets over from other custodians or moving 529 assets consolidating 529s it will drive you mad dealing with all these different custodians trying to to work on the actual transactions and I think that's why sometimes when you see the the one-off advisors that will pay a flat fee to do if they don't actually execute or handhold the actual transaction does it actually happen because that's a part of what we're it's just like We were talking about like you get into real estate. How long does it take a real estate person to to find the the the good plumber, the good electrician, you know, all the service providers? It takes a while to build up your book of of Rolodex. I'm old school. I'll say Rolodex or your contact of all the different people. It's the same thing in the financial world, too, is that we actually execute the the not only give the implementation ideas, but how do you actually execute it? And by the way, also shepherd the process. I mean, because that's something that I don't know that I think that the machines are they're going to be able to tell you, >> but are they actually going to execute? Maybe down the road, but I don't think we're there yet. >> So, when you manage your high net worth clients, do they ever think like or act in such a way of like, okay, you know, I have $10 million with you guys. I'm just going to take like 500 grand over here and put in like Pepecoin. Or do you stop them from doing that? Do you ever see anything like that? You're like, oh, all the progress we made, it's all gone. It's all gone. Again, a lot of the folks who actually come and work with us listen to the show. So, they're like fans of personal finance. They love this stuff. They live and breathe this stuff. So, a lot of folks like the idea of having this little play account. Hey, I want to go invest in Bitcoin or I want to go uh do micro strategies or want to go buy individual stocks. And we're totally okay if you want to have that with a portion of your portfolio and you want to have that be a play account. We have no fault with that at all. where it becomes an issue is when that becomes a large part of what you're doing because now you're putting your actual financial plan at risk. So, it's not uncommon for clients of ours to have like a side play account where they're still able to get the utility they get from trying to implement those strategies. >> How often do you say no >> when us saying I'm sorry when us saying yes would breach our fiduciary duty to the client. So, if a client says, "Hey, I appreciate all this guidance you're giving, but what I want to do is I want to take 75% of my portfolio and go buy Bitcoin." What we'll say is say, "Hey, at the end of the day, you're the CEO. This is your money. You're in charge of it. We are the CFO that you employ to help you make help you navigate your financial strategy, but I cannot in a fiduciary capacity say, "Hey, it's in your best interest for you to take 75% of your portfolio and put it in Bitcoin. So perhaps it does not make sense for us to work together." And that's okay. just rake the >> Yeah. Because we we are not going to do something that's not in our client's best interest, even if they tell us it's what they want to do. Or, hey, I want to I want to sell all of my portfolio. I want to go buy, you know, a $20 million dream house. Okay, you can totally do that, but if you're going to do that, you're not really following our guidance. There's no reason you should pay us for advice that you don't want to take and you don't want to implement. >> And how often do they actually sever that after that conversation is had? >> Again, our our clients are pretty astute, so we don't we don't run into this a lot. you know, this is a this is a fairly we'll have clients ask us questions, then we'll walk them through why we think it's not the best thing and normally they're pretty pragmatic. They'll arrive at that same place. >> We tell people you vote with your feet in the fact that nothing keeps our clients here every year. They they don't it's not like they have to stay with us. We have to add value or they don't stay. >> Have you ever given any bad advice? >> No. Uh, it's, you know, it's >> looking back in hindsight, >> it's an interesting, when you say bad advice, what do you mean like advice that the client did not like? Cuz like this >> advice that maybe turned out to be incorrect. >> Well, well, you can't say like cuz look, we all could look I'll just spot check something right now. >> If if you sold if you got a client and they had fully concentrated portfolio of Nvidia. >> That's the one I was going to say. >> I mean, and and you tell them, hey, the right thing from protects your long-term net worth is let's start diversifying this. Is that a bad decision or is that the right decision? You know what I mean? Because it is. We all know what's happened now. I mean, the last three years have been a rocket ship. >> Does he ever call you and just be like, "Hey, remember that time you told me to sell Nvidia 20x?" >> Every time I meet with him, we have that conversation, but we put together a plan to to slowly divest. He still has a lot of exposure there. Yeah. >> Just not as much as he would have had. And yes, he likes to remind me of how much he missed out on. >> But it's back to that loosen with you. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But you think about those Lucen executives I used to work with. We've seen the other side of that. We all, you know, it's easy in hindsight. It's kind of we we reacted to a video where where they they put up every fang stock, you know, was out there plus and you know, they they added everything that's been a highf flyier and said, "Why would you buy the S&P 500?" And and the guy, I loved his response. He's like, "And if you grew wings, you could fly." Because nobody knows. Hindsight always looks one way. All we can do is take the variables we have, give you the best advice, and we make the decision together. But of course, things like that where a concentrated portfolio, you always run the risk that that concentrated portfolio could do very well, but you're helping the client protect the core that they're not going to go broke and go back to po poverty because they were overly concentrated. I have a very a very dear client um who he began working for this startup and early on as part of this comp package he was given options for this startup started up startup ended up doing very well this is before he was a client startup ended up doing very well he ended up with those options being valued at over $5 million but he was like man this this thing is going to go to the moon we've only this is only the beginning this is only the beginning and he held them a year or two later company ended up tanking ultimately went out of business options options expired worthless. So we went from $5 million worth of options to worthless and he recognized that's he hired us after all this happened. He recognized said, "Man, I'm never going to do that again." I recognized that even though I had won the game, had I begun to diversify, had I begun to liquidate, I would be at the financial independence point, but because I didn't do that now, I've got to start I've got to go retrace that. So even like with the client in Nvidia, if he would have left it all in Nvidia, yeah, he'd be 20x 30x right now, but if it didn't work out, he would not be financially independent. Whereas now, >> that balance of fear and greed. That's right. The fear and greed is a legitimate thing that humans struggle with immensely. >> So that was kind of alluding to what I said earlier in the conversation. It's like at what point would you say the law of diminishing return really hits? You said $5 million. Would you say that's about winning the game? after that amount, you really shouldn't like it depends on it depends on. So, we have clients uh who are financially independent who live and who do everything they want to do the way they want to do it and they have less than a million dollars invested cuz that's where their lifestyle is. >> Think about teachers. Think about people with pensions. I mean, you don't have to have a huge portfolio and have an incredible life. But then there's other people that they just spend a lot of money. I mean, I know >> we have clients who have $10 million with us who are not yet financially independent or and are not close based on the lifestyle that they want to live. So it's very much subjective and it's very much personal for that person. So what we try to figure out with our clients is okay what's the standard of living that you want to live like when you think about financial independence and where you want to be what standard is that is that 15 a month 20 a month 10 a month what what's that number okay then once we get to that number once we're beginning to approach that number we kind of lock in okay at this point there's no point in taking excess excessive risk that could potentially derail the plan and us not be successful. What would you guys say is your kind of number that you want to hit in monthly income if you're fine saying it? >> You talking about for us personally? >> For us? >> For you personally. Yeah. >> Is there like an amount that you'd feel comfortable with? We're building more not so much in the pursuit of financial independence. We're building because of the impact we're able to have both through the show as well as through our employees. You know, when it used to be there were three of us, right? there was, you know, the us two and there was an admin and now we have 40 folks and eventually we'll probably have a hundred folks. It's really fun. You already alluded to this. Getting to see our people buy houses, start families, advance in their careers. So, for us, that's more the motivating factor now and being able to help more clients and more people to the show than like personal financial independence. >> I don't mind sharing that. Um, I don't have to work anymore. I mean, I'm kind of at the point where I mean, I've paid off most of the debts. I've got everything um on a good place, but I think about the fact of how much joy I get from life, from my people. I come in here, everybody knows I'm the vortex of of Slack. Meaning that when I show up in your office and I talk to you, productivity just goes to the tank. I mean, I I just love walking around talking to to to the folks here. I love watching, like I said, when people get married, when they have babies, when they buy houses. There's something really good about that. And how often do you hear about I mean what was it the all over my social media feed is the this this thing I don't even know if it's true but the guy who invented Minecraft and he got the billions of dollars and now he's s you know he supposedly went through some depression because got two half billion dollars and then >> didn't have the the thing that brought him so much happiness. Money is only a tool. >> And that's one I always I try to and I think that's why we're good shepherds or good stewards for people is that when people think that the number is going to be what makes them fulfilled. I'm always there to be the counterbalance and be like, I think you really need to focus on what you actually get value out of in life. What's happiness? Because if you're just doing it for the number, I can tell you once you reach that number, if that's all it was, you will find it's very empty. And I don't mean to to to make light of that, but it's it it's one of those things where for me, the the enterprise of watching to see what we can create and the and and the impact we're having gives me more fulfillment than than beyond the the dollar signs at this point. How do you feel about the future of the US economy? >> I mean, it's back to that law of accelerating returns. I really do believe as long as we don't create something that destroys us all. Um, there's going to be opportunities cuz everything I've ever experienced in life is that the pot's not getting smaller. It's actually expanding. I mean, that's why it's not a zero- sum game. There's actually opportunities out there. >> I mean, 20 years ago, 20 years ago, there wasn't an iPhone or an iPad. And think about now there are like billion-dollar businesses that are run off of iPads or that are run off of iPhones. 10 years ago artificial intelligence was not what it was now. Three years ago AI wasn't what it was now. And so it's just it's moving so rapidly. I think that there's going to be a lot of opportunity. I mean yeah the world is getting smaller now. You know it used to the the way that we're able to interact in a global economy and and transact with other people and other individuals and other businesses all across the world is getting smaller and smaller and smaller and easier and easier and easier. But I still think the US economy has bright days ahead of us. >> I think I mean one of my favorite hobbies is reading Birkshshire Hathaway's annual shareholders. You know, it's going to be sad whenever we don't get those anymore. But I'm like Uncle Warren. I mean, don't bet against America. I mean, if you if you look at all the things that have happened over the last 20 years, it is amazing the resilience and and then the the V-shaped recoveries and the opportunities that have come from that. >> Now, what do you think about government spending? And do you think that we're on this unsustainable path where there's really no turning back? >> Well, I mean, I come from a unique perspective. I actually worked in government, too. I mean because there was a period of time where I was a school board chairman and then I was as a county commissioner and so I see how you have to be careful with with government is because government is powered by the taxes and and property for when I was a county commissioner it was the property taxes and there was always this this thing where expansion was I would love to do more parks and more things but what people never understood and this is something something I had to explain with the accounting background is we go set up this park it's going to be great but then now somebody's got to cut the grass on in this park. Now, we've got to put four employees that are going to be full-time there to to kind of be at the park at all times. There's there's great cost to this. Yes, we now we have to just weigh to make sure that we have the tax revenue and we have the the the the ability to fund all this versus the fun thing is to go put a park and then name it after yourself and feel all really good. But I I want things to be sustainable. And so there's an equal balance there. Government is very important to the economy. We need to have guard rails. We need to have, you know, to make sure that the game is fair, to make sure people's rights are protected. But you there is a balance there. And and the good news is, as everybody knows, the Money Guy Show doesn't do politics and we don't do religion. Now, unfortunately, because tax policy is a very political process, but it's also a very financial process. We do have to cover tax policy, but we always try to stay true. So no matter what your political affiliation is, you can watch our thoughts because we're going to try to balance out that that take so that you once again get the balance of how much government do we need versus how much growth or the economy so that this thing stays healthy. >> And what about when it comes to real estate right now? Do you think today is a bad time to buy a house? >> I think it's really really hard to buy a house. Now when it comes to house primary residence, we think that that's more of a life decision than a financial decision. Uh should you buy a home right now? Well, is it part of the plan and part of your financial goals? Are you trying to establish roots? Are you trying to start a family? Is it something that's going to be part of your longerterm plan? Well, then, yeah, by all means, go out and buy a primary residence. But, it's difficult. House prices have kind of run away from you. Interest rates are super high. It's really, really difficult to be able to do that. So, I would approach it less from is it a sound financial decision? Is it one of my top financial goals? Now, from an investing standpoint, again, I think it's really, really hard because if you look back four or five years ago, uh, prices were much more muted than they were now across residential, commercial, all types of real estate, and interest rates were a lot lower. So, it was a lot easier to quote unquote make money a few years ago. That doesn't mean that there aren't still opportunities to buy real estate. I mean, we bought a commercial property here recently, but it happened because we had a really good opportunity at a really good price, and we had the capital to be able to do that. So, I think for folks who are in that position, they can. It's just a harder path than it has been historically. >> Time is your friend, though. This is not if if it's a three-year decision, you know, if you because one of the things I had I had a really smart attorney come visit us. And he was asking for career advice. I was like, "Go find who does what you want to get into because it was a very specialized part of law." I was like, "And go let them mentor you." And he's like, "Well, that's I just bought I'm house hacking. I just bought I was like, you know, you know, maybe I because I love house hacking is one of my favorite things. I know that's one of your part of your success story, too. But you can probably even admit that somebody who's like in a very specialized thing like a specialty of in law. >> Um that probably the earning power is going to outweigh the house hacking benefits. So I always tell people if you're making a decision, if you know you're going to move in the next three or four years, that's probably not going to be as easy for buying a house. But if you're 10 years and you you got kids and you're trying to set down roots, I think that the the spreading out that timeline or if you know you're going to be in the property will will smooth out that purchase. >> I could be totally wrong here and feel free to push back on this, but my recent hot take when it comes to real estate is that it's going to be the new like college in a sense that we're going to look back 30 years from now and say, I wish I didn't buy a house. And I think a lot of people now are realizing a case in the future that people are saddled with these mortgages and these overheads and these expenses that they never needed when rents right now are pretty attractive compared to buying and you don't need to buy a house when you could be as mobile as you can be today. I I I agree with you on the economic sense, but I you don't you didn't realize probably that you're talking to two guys from South Atlanta. So, we didn't even know you can make real money on real estate until we moved to the state of Tennessee because I mean my first house that when I sold moving up here, I I basically pre all the prepayment I made was to pay all the negative equity because I we lost so much money on the move. um is but I still look back I'm glad we lived in that neighborhood because my kids made memories with a lot of the neighbors and and and you know and I still I go on annual trips with a lot of those neighbors so community was very valuable. Now this was such a big financial transaction that it derailed my entire life. That's that's one thing. But I think there are some benefits to home ownership outside of just the financials. >> Well, can you say the same about college though? that there are benefits to going to college and socializing and you know figuring out what you want to do. >> It's the same rules though as long as it doesn't blow up the corpus of what you're trying to do and a lot of people and that's why we always give the guidance on like student loans if you're transition if you're talking about that. >> Don't run up more student loan debt than you're going to make in your first year salary because how many people are out there getting you know running up $100,000 of debt and they're and they're in these these majors that that they'll be lucky if they make $50,000 coming out of school. Then I think it comes down to just being intentional about it. And I and I worry that a lot of people now have been told that buying a house is what you need to do. >> And that's where the problem is. >> I think your analogy holds and I think it's it's a great analogy that there are a lot of people that went and got a college degree and that college degree was incredibly valuable. You know, I went and got a college degree in financial planning and it's worked out swimmingly well for me throughout life. So, by all means, it was the right decision. But if you're someone who went out and got a college degree that was way too expensive in a field that you do not work in was not the most prudent pragmatic decision. It's no different than someone who goes out, okay, I'm going to buy my first home simply because I want to be in a home and it's more than I can afford and it doesn't make sense for me. Then yeah, they probably are going to look at it the same way. But there going to be a lot of people said, "Man, I wanted to go buy that first home and I got in the home and I started a family or I set up roots and I established that I was there for 7 8 10 years and I built equity in that house and I was able to sell that house and go to the next house." I think that that's still going to work. But I agree with you completely. The idea that you have to buy a house to be financially independent or that it must be part of your financial plan, I think that's completely wrong. Just like I think the idea that you have to go to college is completely wrong. I think there's a lot of folks who do not need to go to college and are not going to need to go to college to be able to have tons of success in life. >> What you said taking an active role. What was what was the way you termed it, Graham? You just said intentional. >> Intentionality to be intental because let me tell you this talking about education. If you look at the percentage of people who work in their field of study, we found if you go just go look at the population of student loans and others, 72% of people come out of college not working in their field of study. We interview, you know, we survey our millionaire clients every year because we create content off of it. And and you can't make up how close this stat came up. 73% of our clients work in their field of study >> there. That's intentionality. The definition of intentionality. So that's why I think it's the same thing with a house. Do the math and you have to weigh. And that's what personal finance is personal is that yes, there's going to be an economic and a math side of an analytical side, but there's also going to be the decisions of what's best for your family. But what's also interesting is that when you look at college tuitions, they've risen alongside government subsidies. And when the government is providing all of this money, colleges figure out, well, >> I'll just charge more pay it. >> But a similar thing to a certain degree is happening with housing. When you see FHA loan limits increase >> and all of a sudden you put 0 to 3.5% down and the government's willing to give you $800,000. Well, what do you think the seller is going to charge? They're going to charge what they can get. Isn't >> it amazing the appraisals always come in at whatever thing? But now for the appraisals technically that's the market value of the house within a certain degree cuz that's what someone appraisal come back other than a thousand. >> I mean maybe in a great recession you did but every other deal I've ever dealt with the most part they're always within a few percent right there. Spot on. But I but I agree with you. It is. It is a problem. And that's why and for most people the single largest financial decision they will ever make is purchasing a home. Like it's the largest thing that they will ever spend money on. So you better make sure you're making it right and you're being wise about that. And you're only doing it if it actually makes sense. >> I'm just starting to see all these stories crop up, especially on Reddit of people saying buying a house was one of my worst financial decisions. And we we did everything correct. We went and we we were told buying a house, we got a house, we saved for a down payment, but we're underwater from what it's worth. They're in Austin and values have dropped 25%. And they have to come out of pocket 70 grand. And they're asking, "What can we do?" Because I don't have the money to sell the house and it's not going to cash flow if I rent and I'm stuck here. >> That's right. And the common advice is just well you either have to take on a job to pay for the you know a second job to pay for the house or rent out rooms >> or prepay the negative equity believe me like I did coming out of South Atlanta that's >> but I think this story is going to be a lot more common and we were even talking to someone recently who believes that housing prices are going to come down so much because of artificial intelligence and from robots being able to build a property at scale really cheap and really quick. You're gonna be able to automate the entire you think >> 10 15 years. >> You think so? >> But when you think >> that's gonna be the expensive thing. >> Yeah. But but but the cost of land could also be cheap because you don't need to be physically in an area anymore to make a ton of money. Like I I we could theoretically do this >> anywhere. >> Anywhere in the world. Like it helps to be in person, but >> you've always said look at your house as a use asset. That's why when people build their net worth and always we even caution people if you if you have a seven figure net worth but it's all in your home equity do you really have because you can't eat that house in retirement. So that's why I mean we're highlighting the point that yes I think home ownership can still have an element in there but it doesn't need to be the economic driver of your success financially. But I'm seeing it now almost like a a good collectible car. It's like buying a house where yeah, you might make some money off it and if you do, it's going to be probably alongside inflation, but that there's also a chance it might be going down in volume for the next 10 to 20 years or he says all of this while he looks at me, he's like, "Buy the house, Jack." Fair enough. >> Before we even turn the cameras on, he was telling us about your new place. >> We completely forgot about the strongest leading indicator of a bad housing market is Jack B. But the thing is and but it's funny but in Jack's case it makes it because he's able he's able to buy this property uh for business use >> and you know with the podcast and everything take bonus depreciation and his savings >> as long as the the market doesn't drop 30% or more his savings are going to outpace any potential downside in the housing market. So I see and it is a use there's a lot of value to that. So I would see this is asymmetric upside where yes the downside is there but the upside is so much greater than the potential loss. So I see that as a good >> I don't disagree with your premise except for the fact that okay am I not going to make any money for 10 1250 because I do still think even if we were to see some reduction in home prices like what you've seen in Austin. By and large real estate homes are likely going to keep up with inflation. They may not make a ton but they're going to likely keep up with inflation 2 and a half 3%. So, if you have a long enough time horizon and you can be in the house, you know, we say we want you to be in the house for 7 to 8 years, but maybe because of where prices have gone, you might have to be in the house for 10, 12, 15 years. I don't think it's always going to be a loss. It's going to be something where you always aren't going to be able to get your money out. >> I think when you account for 7% mortgage rates, 1% property tax, another 2% between insurance, repairs, >> but surely we don't think mortgage rates are going to stay at seven, right? Like, we're going to see some reprieve on that at some point. Now, hopefully what happens is the house doesn't tank in value and you can't refinance, you have some sort of optionality there, uh, if you've been paying, you know, and again, if you kept your house in the affordability range, you had an appropriate down payment, you inoculate yourself from some of that, but there are likely going to be things down the road that if you are in a home, you're going to have opportunities so that it can become more and more affordable as you live in the home. And ultimately, again, maybe it's not going to make you a ton of money, but you're not going to likely lose money over the long long term. I I like to bring it back to the historical location, location, location cuz I mean it's one of the reasons we wanted to own this building >> is that I couldn't believe they even let us have access to buy this building cuz it's right in the middle of the square beautiful in the middle of I mean so no matter what happens it's it's good to be >> it is like the fifth avenue of of Franklin Tennessee. I mean, this is going to be very valuable property. And that's what I would tell anybody cuz I I made the mistake when I bought my first two homes in South Atlanta is I remember I was working in Marietta, Georgia. If anybody knows anything about the city of Atlanta, Marietta is here. And then I bought my first house in Stockbridge, Georgia, which was outside the perimeter, South Atlanta. And the reason I did was it's so affordable. And I was like, you know, that 40minute commute, that won't be that bad. I can handle it because I'm getting such a great deal on the property. No, that's that's horrible because the location was not great. I ended up and then I I doubled down. I started my first business down in that down in Locus Mcdana, Georgia. And um and I bought another house. And that's the thing is that the location does matter. And I think that that's something that everybody should think about. I mean, we've seen here in Williamson County, Tennessee, now beautiful homes are getting torn down because the land is worth, you know, if you've got an acre property or 3/4 of an acre property, people will pay over a million dollars just to tear your house down and then put a brand new thing. So, the land does have some value. So, I would just tell people to focus on where and then the functionality of the use. I mean because are you getting and don't don't bet the farm literally on the farm if you that's not how you make your living because I think that's the problem a lot of people who have we've seen it with the Fred data the Federal Reserve data comes that the only way Americans are growing their net worth right now is through the equity in their house which that's we're trying to get people to get outside of that and build up wealth and and value outside of their their just their their equity in their homes. How much of all the gain that we've seen though is simply because of loose monetary policy? And I do see an argument >> inflation. Yeah. >> That >> ever since the 80s that they've started really lowering interest rates, everything has slowly gotten more expensive. they've printed more money and that's somewhat the reason why the market's gone up consistently for the last >> and we're not the only America is not the only country that is all the central banks have gotten with this loose money and that's what we're all kind of >> interconnected in this this strange game that we're doing and that's what you you know it scares you if you start thinking about I mean I was look I don't mind being transparent and Bo knows what I'm going to say because it's good >> I wonder how long it's going to take for this to come for this story to come the first election I ever voted in I voted for Ross Perau. The reason I voted for Ross Perau was because what was that 1996 >> 1996 that was George Bush, Bill Clinton and Ross Perau was Ross Perau was out there every day telling everybody our country is in debt for $6 trillion and we are straddling our children with the debt of our country. And I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, you I don't come from any money, but I don't want the debt of, you know, my parents and grandparents straddling me at $6 trillion." And then here we are decades later. He wasn't wrong, by the way. I mean, now look at our where's the where's our debt now? Aren't we getting close to 40? Yeah, we're getting close to $40 trillion. >> $50 trillion in 10 years. In my lifetime, we were it all the hundreds of years this country's existed, we got up to $6 trillion in 1996. And now think about where we are. We've gotten way too comfortable >> with debt. I mean, that's that's that's concerning when you think about just in my lifetime what's happened. >> Yeah. We've only ever had one surplus year in the last I remember the clock they cut the clock off. That was I mean they cut the the debt clock off >> one year and it was just like a little bit where they just didn't >> I think it actually encouraged them to go spend more and by the way that that's bipartisan. Both parties have spent money equal. It's not >> it's not like one is a hawk on the the budget and the other one's not. They're they equal opportunity on running up the debt of the country. So is there any solution or is it we just have to hope that >> if you were financially advising let's just say the treasury. >> It goes back to your original question. What happened? It created inflationary pressure. >> So I mean what do you do to protect yourself from inflation? You own stuff. >> I mean that that is the cruelty of the system. This is something I caught on at a young age is I realized hey if you because my I grew up in a household my parents were the most disciplined people in the world. We just didn't had more love than money, but they never invested. CDs was what my parents did. You don't really own anything if all you're doing is CDs. You got to start buying stuff so that you can curb some of these these these risks >> that then lead over time to a huge disparity between the halves and the exact but >> and artificial intelligence could make this even worse. But over 30 years on that trajectory, you're going to have either really really really wealthy people or really really really poor people. >> Well, that's that's what is going on. >> And then there's and then there's an uprising. >> But even I my understanding is the have nots also technically are living much better than the halves of like 50 years ago. >> Oh, for sure. Because the standard of living is increased. >> I mean even technology are deflationary like televisions and and technology like that. I mean, if you go look at any house built back when I was a kid, I mean, you you didn't have open floor plan. It's because they needed to be loadbearing. Now, we've got, you know, structured support where you can I mean, there's things that I mean, and cost of construction's gone down. There's all all kind of things where I agree that and that's what I'm reading some, you know, some stuff right now is that >> somebody who has now look, you've got to be able to survive and and that's the part why you see all these happiness studies and you know and I know it's the the whole talk about is $75,000 a year that or 100,000 you know there's all that research on what's the level of happiness but there is something once you cover the the ability to pay bills there's not much different from somebody who's got a few hundred,000 net worth to somebody who's got a few million dollars in net worth on what they can do because you're you're covering the basics. >> I just think eventually 30 years from now we're going to be hooked up to some sort of electrodes and there's going to be some sort of like you know uh like gelatin that you just eat that has all your nutrients and you don't need that much money. This is a great movie with K. I could see that being a thing and you just plug into your whatever you know you basically could I'm so glad I'm the age I am. I mean, when I hear stuff like this, this is when I'm glad that I I have one foot in the analog world and then one foot in the digital world. >> How do you How do you know you're not in uh you know, a whole digital video? He's not in a simulation right now. >> You could be you could be right now and not know it because it's that good. And I think if we get to a point in the future where you have people that could basically just live whatever life they want to makes sense. I bet a lot of people would take it. >> I It's interesting. It's an interesting thought exercise. But what I do know is right now, right where I'm at now, >> I got I got to do the best I have with >> somebody will make money off of that structure. >> 100%. >> And that's why if you just buy the S&P, you'll be >> you don't even need money at that point because as long as you have the $100 a month to plug into your reality and play the video game. >> But so while so while that could happen, right, like that it's certainly a viable outcome and I'm not who am I to say that it's not a viable outcome. If it doesn't happen, I probably want to do things today that are gonna set me up. Probably gonna eat my vegetables. I'm probably gonna exercise. I'm probably gonna save. I'm probably gonna do all these things until I get the gelatin and the hookup so that if it doesn't happen, I'm still going to be in a good spot. Even if I'm a brand new young person starting out, I'm going to figure out, okay, how can I increase my income through my vocation? How can I live on less than I make? How can I save it for a down payment? How can I get in that starter home? How can I house hack? How can I get on the other side of the equation so that I can start benefiting from some of the crazy stuff that's going on? Would you want the hookups? >> No. >> Dep I would I would want to do a trial. I would try it out and see just how crazy. >> Have you ever had a cast on your foot? >> A what? >> A cast on your foot like injured yourself? No. >> Do you realize how fast you lose your ability to walk once you put on because your your muscles and everything atrophies? >> I mean it atrophies very quickly. So I would be scared. Oh no. I'm not signing up for that. >> Here's the thing. In a dream, you can live like, you know, years. You could live like so much longer than the actual time that's elapsed in real life. And so, you could probably say the same thing. It's like you tune in for 2 seconds, but then you live 20 years. I'm going to be honest, guys. I don't think I'd do it. And here's why. Life is pretty good. I'm kind of enjoying this spin right now. I don't need some dream reality. I think things are pretty good. But what if you had a mega yacht? >> That'd be cool. But a mega yacht and a johnboat, you're still floating on the water. Sun still comes up, sun still goes down, >> but it would be so good that it could give you the right amount of challenge, the right amount cruise. >> I mean, that's why I don't know if I want a mega yacht either. >> We always think about the things. Have you not seen that Netflix? I mean, >> the cruise ship that broke down and they couldn't get off of it. >> What happened? >> They were stranded at ocean in the ocean for how I don't know how. Well, you would think that when a cruise ship breaks down that they would probably pull up another boat to let all the people off. No, they dragged it >> cuz they dragged it for 4 days to so these people I mean >> and it filled up the >> Well, plumbing wasn't working. They couldn't evacuate. None of that stuff was going on. >> I don't know that I want to. It's a lot of your own in this, you know, fantasy world that we're talking about. That's what I'm saying. Do you want Yeah, because that doesn't back up. You don't even use the restroom in this fantasy world. When you look in the mirror and you flex in the you see a stronger bicep peak that your genetics won't allow for right now. You could have everything you've ever wanted. >> No doctors on call that you have to >> I don't know. So I'm not signing up. >> I would rather build the life today that's the life one day I dream about. You know what I mean? I'd rather do those things. >> No, I I agree with you. Yeah. Because in a perfect life then you don't have anything bad to compare to. So you're probably going to be less happy. But >> I'm just pretty grateful. Life has turned out I mean it started out Oh man. And I would have never guessed that the end that that where I'm at now would be where I started. Ah, I'm pretty happy about that. >> I mean, to to be the old man in the room, I do think it's interesting. We have all this technology, but yet loneliness is probably at the highest levels it's ever been. If you when you look at national surveys on people that feel separated and lonely, >> I I I get nervous about things like that because I think human connection and it's back to I'll bring it back full circle to kind of some of our conversations. I think at the end of the day, even when the AI and everything gets better, there is something about the human connection. I mean, I I will tell you one of the greatest gifts I got um from a like I'm trying to remember why my wife gave it to me, but she knows I'm a big Han Zimmer soundtrack thing and they did this candlelight service up in um Nashville at the >> They did it at the Parthonon >> and there is something about the human condition that when you hear live music and you're there with other people, it touches something that is outside of you that that I don't think the simulator can do. And and I've experienced that when in college I got asked to go to a concert for a singer that I just had no interest in seeing. But seeing this person in real life perform and play this instrument and then sing, I left a fan, you know, and I think that that's that it's that X factor that makes us humans different that that's why I want to talk to my doctor. That's why I think successful people are going to want to talk to us is because yes, the box can probably give you an answer. But there's going to be something in the human condition that wants more. I I just I I feel that in my soul and I think that that's probably the answer is that and that's why we can get all this free stuff. The machines still need our soul. They need our humanity and we ought to really think long and hard about what what that is. >> I love that. >> Yeah. I like these discussions because for me for me it's it's the banter that Jack and I have back and forth. You know what what if this and what if this or would you do that or how much like >> how much I got to tell you part of me was getting sadder and sadder hearing some of those things cuz it just I don't know and I am a sentimental personate here. Yeah, >> I've watched I've watched tons of Hallmark movies. You know, in the Hallmark movie the dad walks in from work from a long day and the kids run up and jump on him. And as much as I love watching that, it pales in comparison to when I walk in my front door and my kids run up and jump and hug that. I was just never gonna be able to replace that. You know what I mean? No matter I don't care how good the simulation is, there's something real real awesome about that. So, I'm going to enjoy that for as long as I can before I plug in. I I know we're we're probably coming closing on on on some of the the time of of things, but I did want to bring it full circle back to opportunities and I know a lot of people are feeling like the system stacked against them or whatever, but I did a stat that comes up every year. And by the way, this isn't we're not the first ones to talk about this stat. I think about Millionaire Next Door. >> Um 80% Millionaire Next Door when Dr. Thomas Stanley and Denko did that. It was like 80% of millionaires are first generation. You're like, "Wow, that's an interesting stat." Yeah, because I always I remember when the high school teacher told me about the $100 a month could make me a millionaire. That's kind of what lit the fire. And then Dave Ramsey has his survey of millionaires and he's right around there. I think it's like 79% uh of millionaires are first generation without inheritances. We survey our millionaire clients. It comes consistently in the high7s every year that less than $10,000 of inheritance. um it's also first generation and that gets me excited and people should be optimistic of opportunity because also I'll bring it back full circle in addition for that stat to be true second generation has to squander third generation and we know that stat's true too generation 70% of the time they squander the money if they if you're born into money there's a you know you're good chance you're going to squander it in second generation by third generation that stat goes up to 90%. So, if you're somebody who feels like the system is is rigged against you, there's a natural cleansing process that's just happening. I I I just say don't get caught up in the negativity. Figure out how to be an optimist because that's the other thing. The majority of Americans, if you survey Americans, pessimists rule the the majority of people are pessimists. If you then survey to say how many of successful people and you might say, well, this is because they're successful. They're optimists. And I think that that's I always tell people, don't get caught up in how bad things are. Try to figure out if there's little small decisions that you can chisel out that actually create some positivity in your life. And I know that sounds so hokey, but I am in this this decade of my 50s where I'm sentimental and I'm just trying to get out as much information as possible because I see what's worked for me and I don't like all the negativity that I see out there. I want people to actually experience and feel that they can do this. And yes, maybe it's real estate is the headwind, but that doesn't mean that that has to be what defines you. There's going to be other ways to make money and create success, too. >> We got a few rapid fire questions just to wrap up the podcast. Are credit card points a trap for broke people? >> Yes, for broke people. For people who know how to use credit card points and can do rewards, not a trap can be a hugely valuable tool. Yeah, I mean that's exactly I mean I wouldn't let that be why you you use a credit card is just for the points, but I mean as a person who's got over a million American Express points that I plan on using. Um yeah, I I mean I would be a hypocrite if I said that I don't pay attention to points. >> Should people with a net worth of less than $100,000 be able to buy crypto? >> Yes, free market. >> Well, I mean, yes, but is that the I mean, I still stand by I still stand by the financial order of operations. >> Should they know? Should they be able to >> cryptocurrency would probably be a step eight thing for for people and there's a lot of one through seven. There's there's a purpose there. >> Is there ever a scenario where it makes sense to go into debt to invest in the stock market? >> I I don't like I mean no. I mean I I I mean I think about the fact that if you're starting a business, you'll run debt sometimes to start your venture and that makes it risky as a whole. But to go buy the S&P 500 on margin or something like that, that's that's something that I would not tell the the typical person to go do. >> No, never a necessity. How many income streams is too many? >> Oh, that's no such thing >> because you hire is we're the perfect case study and you can hire somebody when your life gets so complicated from all the different streams. Just if if you've got resources, hire somebody to help you manage it so that you have more diversification and more income. No such thing as too few or too many. >> Well, there can be two. I mean, you can be concentrated. >> No income streams. If you have one income stream and you make like, you know, a million bucks a year, you're doing pretty good. If you have a hundred income streams and then a million bucks a year, you're doing pretty good. What's the most irresponsible thing you do with money? >> Um, I just I I don't ask ask questions on how my my spouse uses her spends the money. I treat it all as >> No questions. >> I mean, I let her do we do whatever we want because I I think that, you know, we've we've created this and I just I don't I just let it go. >> Would there be a certain, you know, point where you'd be like, "Oh, I've been married. I've been married 27 years, so it's not like you there's any surprises." But if you know, if there was an expensive designer purse or something, I there's not it's not like that stuff blows up the system anymore. So, go go have at it. So, that's probably the most irresponsible because it's just it's it's it's just out there. >> Uh, we just did a a large renovation on the back of our house and added a really nice pool and it was uh very expensive. It was not economically justifiable, but lifestyle justifiable. It's amazing. We're in every >> Your answer is so much better than mine. That sounds so much better cuz now mine's my wife's going to see this and be like, "Why'd you say me?" And that is not what I'm saying. I hope nobody I hope nobody mishars that and that doesn't come back because we heard it crystal clear. No, that is not what I'm saying that basically here's let me try to let me try to clean this up. We don't talk we you know what is mine is hers and what is hers is mine. There's no there's no limits on that and that's that's can be seen as irresponsible but I think it just shows commitment. >> Do you believe in the man paying for the first date? >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> I mean look I'm at my age if you if somebody my I mean yeah for sure. I mean, I I have a college-aged daughter and um I should have asked. She was on a date this week and I should have asked if he paid for her coffee. >> You should have asked that. You think? >> What would it tell you? >> Well, just out of curiosity because then he could give you the anecdote here. Well, here's what the young kids are doing these days. >> I don't know what that I mean, it's always because look, I even though I was poor, I was still trying to pay for I paid for all my dates, >> but it's not a Would I pay for the first date? Absolutely. Is an absolute necessity? Not necessarily. But I think it's a great touch. I >> I've been off the market for a long time, though. >> I'll tell my son that when he goes on his first date, hey, you should pick up the bill, son. >> And what if she wants to split the check? >> Well, if she wants to, then that's fine. I mean, I would, again, I would encourage him, hey, don't, you know, try, you know, try to do it. But if she says, "Hey, this would make me feel good and I want to value paying half of it." All right. That's that's okay. You don't have to, but that's okay. >> Putting on a credit card or, "Hey, let me get this one." >> It's no different. Going into debt. put out cash. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. There you go. >> I I like, you know, you'll be out with a couple and maybe somebody picked up the rounds or something and you try to buy the meal. If you can tell that there's discomfort, you back away from that and you let them you split the bill. And I think I think that's the way I was if I was giving guidance to my son or daughter, I'd say, look, you know, yes, try to pay the bill, but if you can tell there's discomfort or the person doesn't appreciate what you're trying to do because you're you're you're maybe breaking some feeling they have, then yeah, just split it. What are some things you're still surprisingly cheap on? Oh, >> you're asking. You should be asking my wife. She probably have a lot of I I don't like um I drink water at restaurants. Um when my kids order, >> but when the kids order sweet teas or Cokes and and I'm like they're paying $4 for that. >> Um for some reason that that bothers me. I'm trying to think of because my wife just recently says, "You're so cheap about some of the weirdest things." And I'm trying to think of what she meant by that. Um, do you know any you're practically my daytime wife, so >> uh, >> what's some things I'm cheap on? >> Uh, uh, if he wants to buy some I'm actually going to answer this. If he wants to buy something online, he can never just pay flat retail. He always has to figure out, is there a way that I can get some sort of deal? Is there a discount code? Is there is there something I can do? I just And I'm like, Brian, it doesn't matter. It's 20 bucks. Just pay the matter of fact, pay him 25 bucks. We're literally losing money trying to wait for you to pay for this thing. Just let it go. But he has to he has to always feel like he gets >> the journey is half of the fun. The preparation and the the thing I think that's why I'm a good planner is I love actually it's like vacation. What's what's more fun? The actual vacation or the preparation for the vacation? >> So what's the most of time value you've ever lost spending like copious amount of time researching something to save a few dollars? Is there anything that you just think back on you're like okay that was way too much. >> No because I just keep repeating it. I mean, I'm researching dehumidifiers because it's so humid here and and I I still haven't bought the one because I keep going and price shopping and trying to figure out what's the best way to do this. >> That's 50 bucks. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, so it's not worth it, but there's that's what I would tell. We see this with our clients, too. By the way, there's a reason one of the biggest things we do as financial planners is it's not the Suzie Orman saying no to everything. We actually try to encourage our clients to unleash or or release and actually enjoy what they've built because I I I'm guilty of this too is that you know you get caught in your ways because you're rewarded for all these decades for being tight. Um and there comes a point where you probably should to to to build focus on the memories and what your money can do as a as a tool. >> So how do you use AI to get better deals? Well, >> you can if you I mean like if you want to like >> He just got excited. No, if you want to think about this like my wife, we found a pair of shoes that I saw. They were like these Disney shoes that that they did at this Run Disney event. Well, you can't buy them anymore. The only thing you can do is buy them on StockX or eBay and all these. You can go on AI and have it actually be the filter to start looking for all the different places that are selling it by the size. And then I've even looked used AI for coupon codes. Um I've said >> I've used it for coupon codes. >> I've even said I've even asked it. I've said cuz some products are price controlled. You know, you you know when you buy I'm trying to think of something that is like a Sonos speaker or something like that. You know that it's going to be no matter where you buy it, it's going to all be the same price because that's I think that's how they're structured. But you can go on AI and say, "Hey, I know this product is price control, but who's offering like coupon codes or discounts or rebates or gift cards?" And and it's kind of good. It's really surprising at at how you can use AI as a shopping agent. >> You could say also, what's the cheapest way to buy this item? Mhm. Oh, I know. I had a Patagonia rain jacket I was trying to buy and um and I said, "Hey, I this this thing is the same price everywhere and it said, "Hey, go to REI and here's some coupon codes." And I was like, "Hot dog." You know, so I ended up and then when I logged in because I actually have because an REI down the street when I logged in the account, I also had like $15 that was just sitting in the account from a previous purchase. So yeah, you can use like that hack has worked on Vioria, if I even saying that right. Vori Viori. Yeah, whatever. I'm old. Um, you know, all these brands that are price controlled, Patagonia and all these things, you can sometimes find sellers that then have coupon codes and AI can help be your agent on that. >> Do you see how excited we get on little things? Do you think that moves the needle? But it does from an emotional standpoint. It's just this is why we're good at what we do. >> Do you think that'll never change? It will never change for him. Never change. >> Even if I was in the jelly vortex that y'all were talking about, the matrix, >> you'd program it the same way. I would be looking for >> infinite money, but you'd still be 30 minutes. >> I'd still be drinking water >> in in the matrix. >> Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for coming on the show. Really great conversation. Thank you to the team also for helping out with this. Very nice of you all. Thank you very much. >> And we'll link to all of your information down below in the description. By the way, I highly recommend check out the channel, subscribe, hit the like button, do all the things, >> guys. We've had a blast. Thanks for having us on. >> Till next time.