Montpelier City Council - August 26, 2026 [MCC]

It is Wednesday, August 26th at 6:30. Uh this meeting of the city city council of Montpillar is called to order. Um first meeting logistics and remote introductions. Please display your first and last name if you are joining uh sorry it's something we have to do first. We have two counselors joining us on uh on Zoom tonight. So will you just soundcheck and let us know that you're there. Councelor Con, go ahead. >> Try again. >> District two. >> Okay, great. Um thank you. And councelor Brown. >> Hi. Uh Carrie Brown, district three. >> Okay, great. Thank you very much. All right, on to uh number two, the meeting logistics and remote introductions. Please display your first and last name if you're joining us remotely. When speaking, please state your name and where you live. For items on the agenda, please keep your comments to about 2 minutes so that others have the opportunity to speak. If you have several questions, please ask them all together. Please focus your comments on the agenda item under discussion. Please direct your remarks towards policies, decisions, and ideas and not individuals. Please avoid comments about a person's character or intent. Please wait to be recognized by the mayor before speaking. And please follow the rules of procedure included in the packet which will guide how the meeting is conducted and may be applied as needed to maintain orderly discussion. Um the first the well the next item on the agenda is to approve the agenda itself. Um we usually do this by unanimous consent. Does anyone have any objections to approving the agenda as presented? Not seeing any objections. Uh the agenda is approved by unanimous consent. Um and now on to item number four recognizing educators. Uh it was my intention to write something uh pathy and meaningful and my day just got away from me. So I'm gonna wing it. But we've started we we sort of uh started down this road of starting our meetings off with the first agenda item as recognizing something in town, some group of people that deserve to be recognized, thanked, um have some gratitude expressed towards them. And today is the first day of school, so it seemed appropriate that we recognized um educators. I walked my kids to school this morning and I was I was a little bit overwhelmed, slightly clempt at seeing all the teachers and the parents and the kids and everybody getting back to school. My son, who dreaded going back to school all summer, was ready for the best day ever this morning. And I just thought it was it was a terrific time. It was a terrific time to be on the street in the sunshine with all those people getting back to something exciting. It was really wonderful. And so I I want to say thank you on behalf of the city um myself uh and anyone else who would care to join me. Uh thank you for the educators who show up for our kids. They, in my personal opinion, work far too hard for far too little benefit and compensation. They are um overworked and undervalued. Uh I also want to say a big thank you to all the administrators, the principles, uh the superintendent, all the groundskeepers that keep all of it running for us. And I also want to thank the school board because they are like our twin sibling in town, right? That they serve the exact same community that council serves, the same geographic area that council serves, and they have a huge impact on all of our lives just as residents who live here and the conditions that we live in. So, thank you to the educators, the uh administrators, maintenance people, the school board, and also thanks to the parents, the caregivers, and all the kids. Um, I don't know what our life would be like without our school. So, hooray, first day of school. All right, thanks for that. Now, um Oh, I skipped right into an agenda item without starting with my quote, didn't I? I know everyone would be devastated if I didn't start us off with some kind of quote. >> I was going to be disappointed. >> You You were going to be disappointed. And my therapist would tell me that I'm I'm, you know, far too concerned with disappointing people. But I don't want to disappoint you, Ben. >> So, I'm just going to read five quick quotes. Um, and then I'll say who they're from at the end and I'll shed a little tear and then we'll move on to the business. Okay. So, here are five quotes that I found from someone that is a real role model for me. Um, the way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you got to put up with the rain. Storms make trees take deeper roots. Don't get so busy making a living that you forget to make a life. Figure out who you are and then do it on purpose. We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust the sails. I'd like to say those are all relevant to our work here, but I think those things are all relevant to everything all of us do all the time. And uh I'll just express a moment of gratitude for um the recently departed Dolly Parton. All right, it is 6:36. We're 9 minutes ahead of schedule. The first item um of substance here is public hearing for the responsible employer ordinance. Uh Manager Curry, would you like to just sort of remind us what we're talking about here and how we got here? Then we'll open it up. >> We'll do. Uh so we brought this to council for discussion in the end of July um to let you all know that an ordinance that had been adopted back um in 2019 had been suspended in until or sorry in 2024 until October 9th 2026 and that ordinance was the responsible employer ordinance uh which discussed the payment of prevailing wages for contracts over $200,000 that the city enters into. Because the the suspension of that ordinance was going to expire in the coming months, we brought it back for discussion and input from council on um which direction you wish to go. And at the conversations at that time, we were directed to bring back language to repeal the ordinance, which we have had a first reading and public hearing on. Um and then now we have scheduled today the second hearing and public second reading and public hearing on the repeal of that ordinance. Um some of the concerns that were raised were relative to the administrative nature of um points that contractors were going to have reports contractors were going to have to submit and fill out in order to comply with the ordinance about the different periods of time that their workers were conducting certain tasks and what the wages being paid during those tasks were. Other concerns were related to how uh state you know the sorry the city's um current wages for employees doing similar jobs were are not being paid the prevailing wage for the state of Vermont in our region. Um and then also uh some discussion around how it can negatively in negatively affect the number of biders that we receive on contracts because of um the standards that it includes. Uh we heard from our DPW director who talked about um a handful of contracts that fell under this, you know, that operated under this ordinance and um some reporting out from the experience of the contractors during that. And we also discussed if there was a different approach to getting to the same equity goals that the ordinance endeavored to achieve um in a different manner or with a different approach and um content. And so based on the conversations that we've had, based on the first reading and public hearing of the repeal, uh we brought this we have brought this back for second reading. Um in the interim up until today, um we hadn't received any additional comments from any counselors about substantive changes to um either the the ordinance or the approach. And so I understand there are some counselors who are going to want to discuss some of that. Um but right now that is what is in front of you. The repeal um is you know a pretty pretty simple approach. It doesn't require the approval of any redlinined language or anything like that. It simply um requires that you cite the um the actual code numbers uh for the for the ordinance in city codes and that suggested language for the motion is provided for you in the packet. So happy to have more discussion or answer further clarifying questions. All of the preceding conversations were linked in your agenda um today. >> Okay. So just to remind everyone the sort of cadence that we're trying to do here. We'll tee up the thing so everyone has the same background knowledge. We'll open it up first for clarifying questions or uh comments from council and then we will go to public comment on the topic and then we will hopefully have a motion of some kind or other then discussion and debate where we might sway each other's opinions or explain why we intend to vote a certain way and then hopefully vote and move things along one way or another. So, are there any clarifying questions or comments from any members of council? Council Sheridan, >> when was when is it um not suspended anymore? >> October 9th, 2026. >> October 9th. Okay. Thank you. >> Okay. Um anyone else? Mark, I you know I uh first I just want to say manager Gray, I'm sorry not to have gotten the proposal for it earlier. I was going to say this anyway, but uh it's just I couldn't do it. And so uh Councelor Brown and I did have some conversations at subsequent to our last meeting and and have a proposal for consideration or at least the beginning of an idea. And I'm not sure Mark, Mr. Mayor, if it's the appropriate time to share that or it would be later. I I feel like now would be appropriate so that if anything that the public might want to comment that the public has a chance to hear it before they make their comment. >> Right. Well, then maybe I'll just Carrie, if it's all right with you, I'm just going to share the content of the email that I sent to council earlier today with a kind of proposal that >> um we've come up with. Um, so you know, just based upon the conversation at the last meeting, this is again meant to just be a starting point for further conversation, but I'm just going to read this. The context of this is that the Montilio City Council has expressed a commitment to the goals of a prevailing wage ordinance, but has also raised concerns about the mechanism itself, as well as the appropriateness of the approach given the city's competing goals around financial responsibility and investment in infrastructure. Specifically, the current ordinance potentially exposes the city to higher costs for infrastructure projects. fewer competitive biders and does not address equity concerns that in some cases city staff earn less than prevailing wage applied to contractors. Uh a proposal is that the city will pause a repeal of the existing ordinance for an additional 3 months while city staff drafts a procurement policy amendment for the council's consideration. The amendment would not preclude a wider review and/or re revision of the entire procurement policy, but would ensure that Montpielaria maintains its commitment to paying contractors the prevailing wage on construction projects. Staff would also consider, but are not compelled to recommend additional benchmarks for the implementation of the policy, including potentially the project in question is a minimum of $500,000. The city has met its reserve fund benchmark of 15%. The city has met its facilities capital reserve benchmark of 3% of building value. The city has achieved its PCI index goal of 70%. The city is paying its own employees the prevailing wage for similar work. The goal here is to have a thoughtfully considered policy in place that balances financial responsibility and a commitment to equity before we've repealed the ordinance. While it's worth noting that the ordinance is already on pause, repealing it outright at this time without a replacement policy could send an unfortunate message. That's the proposal or start of a conversation. >> Okay. Um, Councelor Brown, as a sort of collaborator on this topic, do you have anything to add before we >> Um, yeah. I mean, I have lots of specific thoughts about this when we get into the portion where we're, you know, discussing what we want to what we want to actually do. But um what I like about this is that it maintains the ordinance which I think is really important. You all know that I I've I've expressed many times that I feel it's really important that we um maintain the standard of asking our our contractors to pay prevailing wage. And at the same time, it it feels unconscionable to me that we might require our contractors to pay their employees prevailing wages when we do not pay our own city staff employees and equivalent positions prevailing wages. And so for me, this is the really big one. That's the really big sticking point. I feel that um I don't want to repeal the ordinance because uh I do think it it's it would kind of send a message that we don't actually care about this. This is not really all right. But we're hearing from staff and I think this is worth more discussion and maybe staff can explain more that a policy would be easier to work with than an ordinance which you know I I'm I'm I can hear that and um so I don't want to repeal the ordinance without something to replace it because I think it's really important that Montpelier continue to have not just say our value is that people get paid decently for their work but that we actually live it. But if we're not living it with our own employees, then it doesn't feel to me like we can require our contractor's employees to do it. And and I will just say that I've done a lot of research on other similar ordinances and policies in other places. And almost nowhere that requires its contractors to pay prevailing wages also requires its own municipal employees to pay prevailing wages, which I think is bizarre. and disturbing. And I think this provides a real opportunity for us in Montilier to say we uh if you know if if anybody get deserves to be paid the average wage for the work they're doing then everybody does not just our contractor's employees but also our own employees as well. So, so that's really the the key thing for me that I think is really important that we we not we not require our contractors to do this unless we're also doing it for our own employees. And so this proposal is a way to say we're basically going to continue this this pause that we have on implementing the ordinance until we have something to replace it. So that we're maintaining this commitment that we feel to pay people what they're worth, pay decent wages, pay the average wage, and we don't want to we're not going to do it until we are paying our own employees that same wage as well as other other possible things that may be recommended in this policy. Um, so I so that's why I would like to have this one move forward. So, we we keep the ordinance in place until we have something to replace it. >> All right. Thank you for that. Um I I have a couple of questions about it. Um just the continue the pause for 3 months. Does that mean 3 months from now or does that mean 3 months from October 9th when the original pause was set to expire or does it really make much difference? >> I I was working on the assumption of like three months from today. >> Okay. Um, great. Any other questions from council? Just clarifying questions. Councelor Sheridan. >> Yeah. Um, then you the thing is done in a month and you want it to go three months. So there's two months that we're going to be operating with a bad policy possibly. I mean, I don't know why you picked three months when she just said little over a month. >> The pause ends. >> I'm certainly open to changes, Jim. Just putting it out there. Like, you know, maybe it's that the the thing is suspended for three months while, you know, you know, I'm I'm happy with whatever. I think you get the basic ideas that Yeah. >> I think we just don't want to repeal something without something. >> Yeah. I think then we ought to say before we do that then we're going to put the pause to equal your pause because right now you're leaving a gap of a couple months. >> That was my understanding was that the thing was to continue the pause so that it would not go into effect on October 9th but would continue to be paused in a paused state for 3 months from either today or whatever the start date. >> Yeah, great. that that's what I understood their their proposal to mean. Um, any other clarifying questions before we go to public comment? Councelor Alfano, >> so you haven't officially submitted this language because what what it actually says is a pause of the repeal. So, in other words, we we we would repeal, but we would pause it until we had this policy three months from now. That's >> we would pause repealing the ordinance. >> Pause repealing it, not pause the repeal of it. >> Okay. Okay, let let me let me see if I can I'm going to state my understanding of what I what I think I'm hearing and you guys just disabuse me if I'm wrong. I think we're saying that the thing is currently paused until October 9th. We're just extending that pause >> for until 3 months from today essentially to allow for enough time for staff to work on revising some policy language and bring up bring back something that we could say. we now repeal the ordinance and replace with this policy is sort of the intent. Okay. I'm not Oh, councelor Brown. I'm just affirming that that is my understanding as well that regardless of what wording that happened to be read that the idea is to just continue on the path that we're currently on which is that it's paused until we have something to replace it and then we can replace it. >> Right. Councelor Con. >> Yeah. Uh I sent three questions about the new proposal. So, it will be great if um Ben or Carrie can answer those questions. >> You you have it right. I don't have to read them. Okay. Thank you. So, it will be >> we're we're having some folks in the room are having a little bit of difficulty hearing uh you. So, um >> can I repeat? How about now? >> Is it better? >> Yes, I think that's better. Can everyone hear? Yes. Go ahead. Thank you, councelor Con. So, I just said that I sent three questions about this new proposal and it will be great if Ben or Kerry can answer the questions since uh everybody has the questions. I think I don't need to read them because I am online uh like virtually attending the meeting. So, I just want to hear the answers of this three questions I've sent this afternoon. Thank you. Councelor Doyle, will you take care of that? >> I mean, thank you for the questions, Councelor Cohen. I'm happy to read them and answer them if I can or pass them off somebody else. The first question is, during the three-month review, will staff analyze whether the existing prevailing wage ordinance has actually resulted in higher project costs or fewer competitive biders in Montpielar. Council manager Curry, >> this question was posed, I don't recall if it was during our work session or the first reading at the time from the time of when it had been adopted to when the suspension was considered. Again, the threshold for these contracts was 200,000 is $200,000. So, we do a lot of work below that, but four projects above that. There were two contracts that um the city entered into under this policy. When DPW surveyed both contractors, they did not get a response from one and the other reported that it it inflated the cost by about 10%. Um, for that project so that's what we know. Um, not a large sample, albeit. >> Okay, >> I'm going to keep going if Okay, go ahead. >> Will this uh second question from councelor Cohen. Will the three-month review include an analysis of city employee wages compared with prevailing wages for similar work? >> And we had presented a table in the discussion that looked at um what our employees were being paid. So it the prevailing wage um that is calculated is relative to you know contractor infrastructure type of work positions. It's not across the entire sort of range of governmental services. It's really narrowed to that. And that's why this policy was written in a narrow way for infrastructure um and construction type projects as well. And so we looked at similar um positions that we have on our public works staff and compared them to the chart of prevailing wage that is updated annually to to look at what those hourly rates are. Um, and in some cases we are paying more and in some cases we are not paying more. And then as with contractors, our employees are wearing different hats throughout the day or throughout a week of work or throughout the course of a project. So they may be doing multiple of the types of jobs that are described in the prevailing um wage chart, you know, at any one time, but they their position is defined in one way and their hourly wage does not change when they do different types of um relevant work. And then I'll jump in and take on the third as well. And I know, you know, councelor Brown and I also had a conversation about this um when I reached out to our city attorney Mike Tarant for advice about a repeal of an ordinance. Um you know, we had a conversation about the one how to go about it, what's required for readings relative to an ordinance and then what is essentially the architecture of an ordinance. And in that conversation um you know he pointed out an ordinance normally would be coupled with civil or criminal penalties for violating it whereas a policy is a direction to um operate internally. And so when you look at our code of ordinances, we have both. Um, you know, we have policies that this body has adopted such as a personnel policy which lays out like the number of holidays. Um, you know, which types of employees are entitled to certain types of benefits, things like that. Um, we have a procurement policy which directs staff on how to operate engaging in um, RFPs for contracts. um definitions around sole source con contracting. Those are policies. When I went and looked at our uh charter, we have language in our charter that also um speaks to this. And um I can just read the relevant point, but it says whenever in this code or in any ordinance of the city that any act is prohibited or made or declared to be unlawful or an offense, um and I'll skip ahead a little bit, the violation of any such provision of this code or any such ordinance shall be punished by a fine of not less than one nor more than $500 or by imprisonment of not less than one day nor more than 30 days. and each day any violation of this code or of any such ordinance shall continue shall constitute a separate offense. Um, you know, the intention is not that city staff will commit any offense to either an ordinance or a policy, but it's um it it doesn't make a lot of sense to have this tied to criminal fines or behaviors to city staff and to the city itself by adopting this as a pol as an ordinance. So again, my my recommendation is um that that any alteration or amendment to this this program be considered as a policy amendment to the procurement policy or as its own standalone. But to me, it makes the most sense to go into the procurement policy because that's where we direct staff behavior around um entering into contracts. >> All right. Thank you for that. Um, councelor Cohen, those were your questions. Your hand came up and went down. Do you have something? And then we'll go to councelor Brown. >> Yeah, thank you. So, uh, I just want to ask when, um, uh, Kelly said this proposal, was she referring the new one Ben and Carrie brought or the one that this the staff told us? >> I was confused. Just just foration. Thank you. Yeah, I what we're the repeal is addressing an ordinance on the book. So, we're follow following the same process that you would for an ordinance if if you want I think Ben and Car's proposal would best be adopted as a policy. >> Uh, Council Brown. >> Yeah, thank you. Um, I just first I want to thank councelor Con for your questions. They were very insightful and very on the mark and really I I appreciate them so much and I want to try to address a little bit the the first question about will staff analyze whether the existing prevailing wage ordinance has actually resulted in higher project costs or fewer competitive biders. I think it's clear that if we were to to enact it would result in higher project costs which is sort of the idea like we want people to pay their employees more so it's going to cost us more. And this is this is the big stumbling block that um we're presented with because it will cost the city more. I I am very interested at along with you about the question of whether it actually results in fewer competitive biders in Mielar. I would love to know that. I don't I'm not sure how we would find that out, but I think that is a really good question. There's that that has definitely been put out there as a reason why this ordinance is a problem. And um I don't know what that what evidence there is for that but there may be. So I appreciate that. Um and then the question about an ordinance versus a policy. Again in research that I've done in very in across the country where they have ordinances or policies like this it is most common for it to be an ordinance. The general recommended best practice by the folks who are kind of advocates in the field is an ordinance is stronger than a policy precisely because it can be enforced in the ways that manager Curry was talking about. Um, and there are many communities that have it as a policy because they have a state law that prohibits such ordinances. And so this is a way for them to skirt that state law. Um so none of that doesn't apply to us at all. And my personal preference would be that it stays an ordinance, but I'm hearing what the staff are saying that they've gotten their legal advice. They feel like it would be easier to implement that it's more practical for them. And so I think that is fine. It can be a policy. And as long as we land in a place where we're we're have we have as a goal that people in across the board are getting paid what they're worth for their work, then I think we're okay. >> Great. Thank you for that, Councelor Brown. Um I'd like to open up for public comment. Councelor Doyle, do you have one more thing before? >> Well, just one thing to add like, you know, a balance point of, you know, compromise, right? is also balancing the need for financial responsibility given where we are as a city, right? I mean, that's really kind of what I'm thinking about is like yes, we'd like to for Montpielar to kind of lead on this pay equity issue and yet at the same time recognizing that like we're nowhere near meeting our, you know, our policy related to fund reserve, right? Or we haven't met our target yet on the um pavement condition index, right? Uh, and so I just think we need to be balancing those things. I hear you that there's limited evidence around does this policy lead to fewer competitive bids or um does it cost more as a result. We have limited evidence, but the evidence that we do have suggests that it might. And so I just think when staff comes back to us with a proposed policy that that's an opportunity to kind of weigh those two com those two priorities. Let's save the rest of this for discussion once we have a motion if we can. Um, right now I'd like to open up this topic uh two minutes to anyone from the public that would like to speak on this topic. >> Oh, sorry. We would now formally open the public hearing at this time. Is there anyone Thank you, John. Is there anyone in the room that would like to speak on this topic? >> I can't fit it into two minutes. Okay, then seeing none, is there anyone in >> can apply your two minutes? >> You're you're if if if you'd like to use your two minutes to to talk about this, you're welcome to use your two minutes. >> See, it's more than two minutes and it's a public hearing and I'm the only one willing to speak. >> This is such clever deception. Look at the difference between a policy and an ordinance. Look at how we have violated routinely our purchasing policy, our sole source justification policy, our homelessness encampment policy. A policy is totally uninforcable and this council and this management flies in the face of it routinely and y'all sit there and say, "Oh, this is normal. That's okay. We'll just keep it all quiet and pretend that we're all kind." So soul source that down and Martin over 20,000 LDDD with the RPC 60,000 no sole source white and Burke no s sole source justification so if this is a clever deception to eviscerate a ordinance which protects wages but it's also not a fair comparison when city employees pay is a union contract that is different than a private sector contract contractor of industrial services. So they're protected by immunity but that the city has overall they're protected by their union contract. They're nobody's going to go to jail for but there's also no when you argue about financial responsibility. This is the third time we've cut up State Main Street between East State and the fire station in 12 months. So where's our financial responsibility? we're squandering our financial responsibility. So, an ordinance is enforcable, especially to protect the the biders, the contractors who might want to compete and make sure that they get paid properly. Uh, our $500,000 threshold is is ludicrous. If the state is $100,000 threshold, the city should be $1,000 threshold. Uh, and there are other reasons which I've why we're having fewer competitive bids. It's the way we do business. >> All right. Thank you very much for your comments. Mr. Kelman, I see you online. If there's anyone else online that would like to speak, please use the raise hand function so that we know you'd like to speak. Mr. Kelman, go ahead. You have two minutes. >> Peter Kelman Montilier. Um, I I just have four clarifying questions. They don't have to be answered, but I've been hearing answers to them uh going back and forth. One question is why would we have a policy uh or a an ordinance that only talks about construction contracts? If we want to be uh have people paired paid fairly, why not apply it to other vendors and why not apply it across the board in our own our own employees, although some of them are obviously covered by union contracts that are are negotiated. Second, uh, uh, Councelor Brown just talked about the way that wages would be the co the per the the, um, the reason why the, uh, contracts would cost more. It's not just wages, it's the cost of keeping track. This is a very elaborately written um, uh, ordinance. And presumably, whether it's an ordinance or a policy, something will be done to make it less ownorous and less expensive for the contractor or vendor to comply with. Third, um uh uh uh uh sorry um Kelly pointed out that our our DPW employees do different jobs at different times. How is it going to be possible to line that up with comparable wages? That's just too confusing an issue. So, I mean, these things are are going to have to be figured out whether we have a policy or an ordinance. And um this is what uh the um the um CJAC, the the Social Economic Justice Advisory Committee study that Michael Sherman did for us pointed out. This is a very very fraught confusing complex issue. I don't think that just going by the way and the fourth question is three months from when I've heard both three months from today and three months from October for the October date but I'm not convinced that this can be be ironed out in that period of time. I'm not really asking for answers to the questions. I'm asking these questions because these are going to have to be answered going forward. Thank you. >> Thank you so much, Mr. Kelman. Is there anyone else online that would like to speak to this topic? Uh, anyone else in the room that would like to speak on this topic? Uh, Mr. Monica, just to clarify, are you are you speaking as a member of the public and in which case I'd like to limit you to the two minutes to keep things fair, or are you speaking as a director of DPW, in which case we would welcome you up during our discussion for answer? I only need two minutes in either case, but I think it's relevant. Um, >> so a couple things just for council's consideration. Um, we have a ben there's a proposal for a benchmark for the paving condition. Um, you might want to consider a benchmark for water and sewer utilities. Um, the water benchmark might be related to a number of boil water notices that we have on an annual basis. And on the sewer side, um maybe a benchmark around a number of um cso overflow events. So that those are sort of the primary guidance on what we're trying to achieve in those two utilities. Um and then um related to the the wage rates and comparing to city staff particularly with um DPW um some clarification around if you're looking for um you know the minimum that the our minimum pay rate for staff would be uh equal to um sort of the higher or lower of the various tasks that they perform because of the state rates vary depending on what you're doing. And then just one uh one other thing to consider is that the way Burlington has their ordinance structured, they don't follow state prevailing wage rates. So they don't have to um track what task contractors are doing. That's just a flat rate, a flat minimum rate, which is just another way to potentially um consider livable wages. >> Can you just clarify what you mean by that last thing? It it's just a flat rate and doesn't follow the tasks that you're saying. It's essentially a minimum wage for contracted work. And so that it doesn't matter if you're doing concrete work or operating equipment or a labor or a flagging. That's how the state rates are set up. That's how our our ordinance mirrors the state rates. Instead, Burlington just says you're going to pay at least, you know, $26 an hour and it's adjusted by CPI annually so that it keeps up with inflation. It's >> just another approach to try to achieve a liveable wage for for council to consider. >> Okay. Thank you for that. Anyone else in the room or online that wants to speak about this? Going once, twice. All right. At this point, we'll officially close the hear the public hearing. Um, and I'd look for a motion of some sort. The previous motion had been to repeal. We have a modified motion. Councelor Sheridan. >> Um, I I'm not going to do that. I want to just mention something because you haven't given us really a chance to talk about it. >> Well, what typically once there's a motion, we'll have plenty of time to discuss and debate the the merits of that, but >> well, I just want to say a couple things. First of all, there isn't a judge in this state that's going to send somebody to jail for this. We don't even have room for the violent people in this state to be sent to jail. So, I mean, it's just ridiculous if we're going to have this as an ordinance to have that in there. You're going to do 30 days. 30 days where in our little jail cell we used to have in city hall, there's not a judge that will send anybody and let a violent criminal out instead. So, I I mean, that's just ridiculous that that's even in there. Second of all, I want to speak up for a part of the population that nobody ever seems to speak up for but me, and that's the people of this city. We're all worried about, oh, who's going to work for the city or the staff or contractors or whatever, nobody seems to care about, gee, if a job costs us more, it costs the people of this city more. They're the ones that end up paying, but nobody seems to care that they're not treated fairly. And we're driving people out of this city. I have been looking at apartments with my girlfriends. They're just emptying out everywhere. We're losing people because we're driving them out of the city, but no one ever seems to care about the costs that are put on the people. So, I'm going to speak up for the people. >> Thank you. Uh, you're out of order, sir, but thank you. Um, >> can't take them back. >> Counselor, >> it already happened. I can't. >> You're uh you're still out of order. I mean, please, if you'd like to speak during public comment, you're more than welcome, but please, let's if everyone could please refrain from outburst. Councelor Sheridan, thank you for your comments. I do also think though that those comments could have been made in in course of the procedure that we're trying to preserve. Is there at this time a motion for us to discuss and debate? >> Yeah, I thanks Al. Uh, I'll I move that um the council direct the staff um to come back to us with a proposal that um in keeping with the language that's been discussed tonight outlining a uh amendment to the procurement policy that considers the prevailing wage um and the the conditions by which it would be enacted. Is there a extended pause included in your motion? >> Can I can I offer a procedural approach here? Thank you. Um I think that this would require two motions. The first being to um continue to a third reading at a date certain the rep repeal of this ordinance and at that time staff will come back with language of a policy. We'll probably have conversations intermittently as discussion between now and then but for adoption. Um and I can suggest which dates might make sense for that. And then your um second motion would be to suspend the responsible employer ordinance past October 9th to that date that you have set. So you will have two motions for this council to consider. So, you've said the first part of, you know, you've said part of the first motion, which is to direct staff, but I think that needs to be coupled with a continuation of the a third reading and public hearing on the repeal of the ordinance. >> So, councelor Doyle, I'd say take your time, gather your thoughts, write it down. We will wait. Go ahead. Let's doesn't try and do it on the fly. Yeah, take your time. Well, do we um Minish Crew, do you have some dates in mind that might work for >> sure? So, you know, from today um you're looking in November and December. You know, November is three months from now. I'm not totally clear on what you all do around the holidays, but ordinarily you would have a meeting on November 11th or November 23rd and December 9th and December 23rd. I'm guessing you don't do those meetings right before Thanksgiving and right before Christmas Eve, but I could be wrong. Um, so those are four dates that get you kind of in your target range. >> November 11th was the first of them, >> right? >> Yes. >> So, two motions. The first motion would be I move that we hold a third reading uh of this um >> the repeal >> repeal uh on November 11th. >> Okay. Um >> and continue the public hearing to that date as well. >> I'm sorry. And continue the public hearing through that date as well. >> Second. Okay. So, we have a motion and a second. Thank you, Council Brown. The motion is to hold a third reading of the repeal on November 11th and continue the public hearing to that date. Uh, is there any discussion or debate on this narrow motion? Councelor Sheridan. Um, I'm not going to vote for this unless I know what the second motion is >> because I need to know that that time >> Yeah. >> is pushed back. I think that actually should be the first motion >> that we're going to continue this pause. >> Yeah. >> To that date and then vote on this motion. >> Okay. >> Because I'm not going to do it the other way around. >> Okay. >> So, >> okay. Any other discussion or debate on this? And if so, John, can we just pause this, take another uh motion, vote on that, and then return to this or does this have to be settled before we can move on to something else? >> Generally has to be settled. >> Okay. So, another question then. Um, a counselor can request that we recall a previous question. Is that true? So, we could vote on this. If it turns out, you could abstain or vote for or against. And then if the second part doesn't go the way Yes. Councelor, sorry, >> manager Curry, >> I would um I would offer that you withdraw the motion and then you reintroduce it at a later time in I request that. >> Yeah. I'd like to withdraw my motion. >> Okay. Is there any objection to withdrawing? Otherwise, we will be considered withdrawn with unanimous consent. Seeing no objection. The motion is withdrawn with unanimous consent. Would you like to offer another motion? Would you like to offer a motion? >> Um, sure. I'll I'll move that we um take the uh suspension and we move it beyond the point that the um city manager thinks they can come in with some or to that point so that we know everything is still paused until we bring it up in that meeting and then we go from there. So, just so I understand it, like the motion would be that we would continue the pause of implement implementing the ordinance until such time as uh a new policy or ordinance is enacted. >> Yes. Yes. >> I'll second that. So, I I want to be sure we're clear on what that what that is because um I think manager Curry had suggested that we pause until a date certain and then your clarifying language just said that we pause until such time as the thing could be enacted. That could be the year 3000, right? In in in theory. Manager Curry, do you have a you're twitching there? You have comments? >> No. No. Well, I I think it's fine to pause it until until a new policy is enacted. It allows you some wiggle room if you have multiple additional hearings, which could happen in this case. Um, I think you do need to determine a date certain when you continue a this type of hearing. >> Right. Yeah. >> To a date certain, >> which which will be the next motion. Right. >> Right. After we adopt this. >> So, councelor Sheridan, it's your motion. Are you okay with that amendment? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And we had a second. Is there any discussion or debate on this this motion? The motion is to continue the suspension of the ordinance until such time as a new policy can be adopted to replace it. Seeing no discussion or debate, all in favor of this, please say I and raise your hand if you're online so I can see. >> I >> All right. Any opposed? Any abstensions. All right. The first motion is passed unanimously. Um, we will continue the suspension until such time as a policy can be adopted to replace it. Um, councelor Doyle, would you like to restate your original motion? >> Uh, yes. I'd like to move that we hold a third reading of the repeal to repeal the ordinance and hold open the public hearing until that time. Is that correct? >> November. >> Until November 11th. >> Okay. Is there a second? >> I'll second that. >> Okay. Thank you, Councelor Sheridan. The motion before us is to hold a third reading uh to repeal on November 11th. Yes. >> I just want to confirm, do we honor Veterans Day? >> Yeah, good question. Yeah, thank you. >> Is that Veterans Day? >> November 11th is Veterans Day. But >> um so >> yes, we should definitely >> in that case >> I'd like to withdraw my motion for the second time >> or amend it to the first city council meeting date in November >> 2026. >> I would Yes, I'll amend my motion to suggest that it uh we have the third reading and hold open the uh public hearing until the first um city council meeting in November. that share. >> Thank you. >> This your Yes. Thank you. >> Wow. There's a rimshot drummer when we need it. Um, >> okay. Is there any discussion about this? Let me restate what I understand to be the motion. The motion before us is to hold a third reading to repeal this on the first council meeting in November of 2026 uh and to continue the public hearing to that time. Did I get that right? Is there any discussion or debate on this topic? >> And and just to be clear, right, like the well, it's not part of the motion. The expectation is that staff's coming back with something at that third hearing that we can respond to. So I have a thought. >> Uh yes. >> Yes. Uh you know this is new to me. Um but what I think is important here is that we keep an eye on the big picture of what we're trying to accomplish. And those are several things. And one of them is the intention that Carrie was very uh articulate in pushing that we maintain the standard to the best of our possible ability of the ordinance and then we consider all in our power to apply similar principles to our work with our staff recognizing as Jim points out well and I think Ben really articulated that in the original paper that you did that we will also be very mindful of the public good in terms of the cost to the consumer, the cost to the people that we are here to serve. And I think by rallying those three things together and taking the three months with a due date to do this work effectively and a charge staff to lead, we're setting up a a structure that answers the challenge and the public comments that we've heard that were very useful last last two weeks ago. So, I as a newcomer, I'll just say this looks really good to me and I'm very much in favor of the motion. >> Thank you for that. Um, any other discussion or debate on this topic and then we're going to take a vote. >> Seeing none. All right. The motion before us is to hold a third reading to repeal this ordinance at the first meeting in November 2026 and continue public hearing to that time. Um, all in favor say I and raise your hand, please, if you're online. >> I >> Any opposed? Any abstensions? It is unanimously passed. Do you have any questions for us, Major Curry? >> Yes. Um, we need further clarity around how the board would want a policy crafted. Uh, you have some ideas in front of you. I think we can bring back some additional ones for you to consider, but I anticipate that we will need to have some work session time as opposed to doing all of this in a voting session, public hearing to get a draft into a final form that would then be presented on November 11th. Um, and so, you know, you have Ben in Car's proposal in front of you. The DPW director proposed some additional things as well as an additional way to address this problem. I'll bring those back for further discussion in order to get clarity on the direction that you all wish to head with this um in the coming three months. >> That sounds great to me. Councelor Con, your hand your hand is raised. Question or comment? >> Yeah. Uh just a clarification. So, uh, we will receive a first draft from you and city staff, right, Kelly? Because you said you need more direction, but I don't know what kind of directions you need before seeing a first draft. >> Yeah, I I will take this information and work on a first draft. I would encourage if any counselors have additional standards they wish to see to send those along as well. Again, whatever I propose as a first draft is for you all to decide which things stay in, which things come out. Um, which would then be brought forward to the the public hearing on the 11th. >> Any other any additional clarification, questions, comments, emotional outbursts from council or staff? All right, seeing none, uh we're going to move on to the next uh the next thing. Thank you very much everybody, council, public, staff alike for a lively conversation. Um, we're going to move on to ambulance billing rates number six. Uh, Major Curry, would you like to tee this up? I think that Chief Libby is also on Zoom. Welcome, Chief. >> Yes, he is. So, this is um a request to update the billing rates for ambulance services that the Mont Pillar Fire Department um provides to our community as well as other communities which we contract with for ambulance um services. Uh we also do the billing for a number of other surrounding municipalities as well. uh as Medicaid and Medicare rates increase every year. This isn't an annual adjustment that we bring forward to you to um track our rates as well. We also compare with additional ambulance service providers um in the area and try to match their rates. And so this is sort of an ordinary update to that billing schedule. Um we had circulated a a corrected billing table last night. Um, and I can turn questions over to the chief. Uh, as with, you know, any sort of forward- facing rate schedules, we typically bring these forward for, um, you know, a vote by you all and acceptance of public comment. And so that's what I would recommend that uh, the mayor conduct right now. >> Okay. >> I'll look to Chief Libby who is um, hanging out with a bunch of other New England chiefs at training in Connecticut right now. So, thanks for joining us online, sir. >> Yeah, sorry I couldn't be there with you in person. Uh, as the manager said, I am in Connecticut and um happy to answer any questions. I've come before you the last two years with similar presentation about rate schedules. Um, as you're aware, the the schedule that we're talking about tonight goes to what we charge um for emergency medical response. Um, last fiscal year, our budgeted revenue was $654,000 and this fiscal year, our budgeted revenue um in the in the FY27 budget was adopted at $900,000. So, um, >> our revenue is based on these rates and call volume and, um, invoices being paid and not having an aging summary of accounts receivable. Okay. Um, sorry, I got too many windows open here. Thank Thank you, Chief Libby. Are there clarifying questions, council? All right. Um, I think we'll at this point open up for public comment and then hopefully we'll entertain a motion to accept or not. Um, any members of the public in the room like to speak on this? Mr. Hughes. >> Um, is that mic good? Mr. Cook. Uh good evening everybody. I'm Zach Hughes uh resident of Mont Pillar. Um I'm just going to point out um that I have witnessed these non-transports occur. I'm concerned about the the fee. I understand that you need to have the fee and I would support it. Uh it's $450 as I understand it on the sheet. I was just looking at it. If it's not, you can correct me. um these um I would hope that there's some form of payment arrangement if uh folks of low income cannot uh meet these uh meet this um uh many people I've seen who are non-transported uh come from my you know my building sometimes and I could just see them get really freaked out by a $450 bill. Um but at the same time I recognize the fees necessary. Thank you. >> Thank you Mr. Hughes. Anyone else in the room like to speak on this topic? >> Seeing none going to Zoom. Is there anyone um on Zoom that would like to speak on this topic? Okay. Seeing none, um is there a motion before us to accept these rates as um as presented or something else? Councelor Alfano, >> I will move to raise the ambulance rates as presented. >> Second. >> All right, we have a motion, a second to raise the ambulance rates as presented. Is there any discussion or debate on this topic? Clarifying remarks as to why we may vote one way or another. See, councelor Costello, >> is it possible to ask another question? >> It it is true. Director Libby, Director Libby, as you look at this uh the question before us, um do you see insurance companies, Medicare, Medicaid, uh adjusting up and their capacity so that the actual hit to a consumer of the ambulance service, is that going up an equivalent amount? Um, have you done a calculation on the actual effect to the the injured party? >> The uh the Medicare Medicaid rates have gone up prior to this request. Um, but they don't cover the entire the entire amount. Um, those are reflected in in write offs throughout the uh throughout the cycle. So we certainly bill well and above. Um this is what we anticipate collections to be. Um you know our billing is like I said significantly higher. Um on page four of the council packet it shows the the percentage of calls. Um you know I don't anticipate the percentage of calls to vary significantly. Um and you know so I think that our numbers are obtainable covering the same population without expanding one rate to another person. It's just where the where the insurance that someone's under how much they how much that covers for the service. And we don't send um we don't send to collections. >> Okay, that's good to know. Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Are you saying, Chief, that we we set our rates and then Medicaid pays what it pays and then the patient is then technically liable for whatever is not covered and but we don't send them to collections. Did I understand that as to be what you said? >> That's correct. You know, the Medicare with Medicare, we write what they uh what they pay. There's a patient portion of any co-pay or whatever. Um but we don't chase the remainder of that uh difference between the $200 Medicare pays and the, you know, the other amount. Um, for an example on, you know, what we haven't taken to collections right now, we're uh showing an age summary of greater than 30 days of $324,000. So, um, greater than 180 days, $162,000 plus dollars. So, we don't chase that down. I think that's very significant in that we aren't raising rates to penalize those who have the greatest challenges within our community. Um, but rather we're we're working within a larger system of funding pro that that works and that this is sounds like a sustainable strategy. So, thank thank you again. >> Thank you. All right. Other questions, discussion, or debate on this topic? All right, seeing none, um the motion before us is to raise the ambulance rates as presented. All in favor, say I. And please raise your hand if you're online. >> I I >> Any any objections? Any abstensions? Seeing none, this is unanimously passed. Thank you. We're now going to move on to um general public comment. At this point, any member of the public may speak on any topic uh will be given five minutes. None of the um none of the following agenda items uh are scheduled to include public comment. So if you do wanted to dis to comment on one something else on the agenda, this would also be the time at this time. Is there anyone in the room that would like to speak on any topic for 5 minutes? Uh yes sir, please come forward. I'm sorry I don't remember your name and I feel like I should, but introduce yourself and tell us where you're from. Uh, good evening. My name is Ethan Park. I'm a longtime resident and a homeowner here in Montillar about 34 years. And um, I want to speak briefly on the search for a new police chief. Um, and I wanted to give you a heads up that I've informally started a petition uh of Montia residents who would like to see Officer Michael Filbrick um be appointed to the position. I know he's thrown his hat into the ring and I know you have a national search going on. Um, but and so you I'm sure you have Officer Phil Brook's resume, but Officer Mike is well known in the community. Back when the force was at um its full contingent, he was the public outreach officer and he held a coffee with a cop at various locations around town at the farmers market. Very personable guy, approachable. He has that rare quality of being approachable and also very professional at the same time. Um he takes public safety very seriously. Um he understands the nuances of the homelessness situation and how to deal with mental health crisis. Um he thinks before he acts, he thinks before he speaks. And uh I think most importantly if you want to preserve the culture that we have in the police force that um Mike would be the ideal person to preserve that culture which I think is quite special um and quite different from uh you know the lack of trust we see in other municipalities and cities around the country between the public and the police force. Um, Mike also has a sense of humor which I think is important. Um, he's well respected by other members of the police force and at 6'5 in people look look up to him both literally and figuratively. So, thank you very much and I hope you'll um consider some homegrown talent in your national search. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Park for your comments. Um, you know what? I think we're just going to change up a little bit. Let's go back and forth between the room and Zoom. Mr. Kelman, are you ready to speak? I know you probably were waiting for a moment. >> I'm ready. >> We'll go back to the room and then we'll go to Mr. Bellini and then back to the room. So, Mr. Kellman, go ahead. >> Yes. Um, I would like to uh read a shortened obituary for Carolyn Ridath. Carolyn Ripath of Montillia, Vermont, passed on July 29th, 2026. She was born January 13, 1942 in Washington DC. She was a global citizen who spent time in many places around the world, first moving with her family as her father's career required and later wherever her adventurous spirit led her. Carolyn was a parap parapathetic and eclectic woman, a traveler, carney, CPA, organizer, and a passionate volunteer and advocate. She built organizations, helped them navigate change and growth, and spoke for the voiceless in the halls of government. She brought her talents to professional associations, international aid work, domestic violence shelters, women's rights, neighborhood groups, homeless advocacy, and aging and disability causes. Through her work, she directly improved the lives of many and built structures that survive her, helping countless more. More than anything else, Carolyn will be remembered for her tirelessness. She simply did not stop. Whether she was voraciously reading, writing, researching, networking, traveling, or planning, there was always more to be done. There was a sense of urgency and importance in her work that attracted many, alienated some, and always left an impression. Her biggest adversaries were the status quo, oppressive or insensitive institutions, and inept policy. She b fought them to the end. Why did I read this oette? First, simply to honor Carolyn as a friend and a colleague, but also to remind us all of the value that elders like Carolyn bring to our community. Our many years of experience living in an everchanging world, the skills and knowhow developed over a lifetime. The kind of wisdom that comes with age, and as in the case of many of us born in the 1940s like Carolyn and like Dolly Parton, an unbending commitment to creating a better world for all. Thank you. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Kelman. Is there any that would like to speak? Mr. Mr. Hughes, I um am going This is Zach Hughes again. Mom Pillar and uh I'm going to just uh speak of Carolyn Red Path. shocked um just hearing this news and um Carolyn was a force to be reckoned with. U she and um she was determined. I served with her on the um homelessness task force at the time when it started out and we had a lot of u debates. She was also responsible for putting together education pieces at the Cal or at least one education get together at the Kellogg Covered Library around homelessness and uh she really tried to push a few things through the committee uh through the task force. I tried to um join her of course but um yeah I think the city was going to do it as well. Um I just want to if you just give me a second I want to give you an idea. she was looking at uh pallets and she was very determined to try to press that through. Um and we were unable to do that um because there was an issue with uh if you had those you had to have a 24-hour organization. So we were unable to get that push but that was just one thing she would push through and she was very determined. It wasn't a softspoken voice at these meetings. It was rough you know and um yeah she wasn't mean. Um, I didn't even know a few things about Carolyn. You know, I misjudged Carolyn because of her looks. That's a bad thing. Okay? So, we shouldn't judge people for their looks. And I and I'll say what I mean by that. I found out that Carolyn had been homeless for some uh in the past. And, you know, I have to say that speaks volumes about how we uh perceive people every day. And I just wanted to pay tribute to Carolyn and her service uh throughout her life. and here in this city. Uh, rest in peace and power, Carolyn. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Hughes. >> Mr. Bellini. Hi everybody. Dave Bellini, Mont Peel, Vermont. Since God was a boy scout. Uh, good job public works on Robin Hood Circle and uh, I like what I'm seeing on Forest Drive. I see the guys out there. It's appreciated. Uh, I did want to speak today about some unsettling front porch form posts by several women who I'm sure you've read them. Uh, it's kind of troubling to me. And I think the message that I heard was that it's there's a problem in Montpielar with behaviors. And it's not just a perception problem. It's an actual real problem that put people in fear and sometimes for good reason. And you know, you drive and one person I know, well, she's going to stop going to downtown Shaws, which I could understand cuz there's always a a crowd hanging around there. She's going to start shopping at Shaws in Berlin. Well, I think this merits attention by the city in uh a little more formal way than just comments. I could make suggestions because I always like to jump right to solutions, but I think suggestions are best made by the women that are uh having problems with behaviors. And I think the city should do a little outreach to them formally or informally and, you know, ask what the city can do to help them. I rather than I make suggestions saying, "Well, you ought to do this and you ought to do that cuz, you know, I'm a male, I'm old, I'm a silverback, you know, and I'm over 250 pounds, so I don't experience what they're experiencing, but it shouldn't be uh ignored. Thank you." >> Thank you, Mr. Mr. >> Is there anyone in the room that would like to speak? Mr. Whitaker, >> Steve Whitaker Pillar. Um, I'm going to reiterate what I said earlier that that this council, and I said it at the last meeting, until this council starts engaging with the topics that are raised, the dysfunction, the uh lack of enforcement of ordinances, the abuses of no no ordinance against the unhoused, uh you're aggravating the mental health distress of the folks outside. So you can try symptoms to, you know, try to rein in behaviors. I don't like hearing the cussing and the drunkenness, etc. That's chasing from the Trinity Church. It's chasing people off of the library lawn. And at one point, I told somebody to tone down and they assaulted me and they're sent to diversion court or treatment court or something. But my point is that y'all have ignored this issue for so long. You've you've exacerbated the hopelessness of the folks that don't have a place to take a shower. They take the food out of the community fridge and rip a chunk off and throw it back in and then the whole bag stinks. And this this is this is back on you. You guys have not done diddly towards the writing the plan that you're required to write for where people are going to camp and where they're going to get hygiene. that is directed at the city manager because that's what our city plan says. We adopted it. It so y'all need to take responsibility for your dysfunction that why why does anybody bother why do so few people bother to raise points for council? Because you never talk about them. I made a written notice for something to be put on the agenda what how many months ago and it got lost. Right? That's a charter provision that someone makes a written notice to get something on the agenda. It never happened and she's probably totally unaware of it. You know, so when when it that y'all will not talk about false certifications to the federal government, this and then you put you're you're organizing public you're organizing to exclude public participation by saying we're not going to talk about this. We're going to put an environmental review while we're feeding produce from untested soil to the seniors. And that never gets talked about. And we're when the environmental review comes up which is going to get federal scrutiny to it, it goes on the consent agenda. So we can't talk about it. We have to use our fiveminute general business and appearances to talk about it. So this is a this is corruption. This is really uh passive aggressive suppression of public comment and it's unconscionable. It it really it reflects poorly on y'all. And this is part of the reason why contractors don't want to do business here. You know, the Phil Brick would be a good choice. Bill Brick is an honest he's one of the few straight up honest cops uh in this and there are very few in this town. So, uh I I commend the effort to uh nominate him. I don't know whether the interim chief was going to run for it or not, but Philbrook is highly respected and trusted, much more so than any of the other cops that I can think of right now uh in this town. Uh so the problem with the environmental review, which is in your consent agenda, is that there's an organizational conflict of interest. You may think, "Yeah, sure. They're not getting personally paid anything. But if they wrote the first phase 1 environmental site assessment in 2022 and they wrote the second one in 2025, they can't be going taking shortcuts to revalidate what they did in those that you need a separate independent look at a phase two because they've stated in their proposal they're not going to look at the soil disturbances that have happened, the long list which you've heard about, and that's going to cause trouble with the feds. I'm warning you, you know, that you can't take the kind of shortcuts that Miller keeps telling you. And obviously, he's convinced King Doyle that, you know, Miller knows all. And Miller has I've got a long list of his lies, which I'm polishing before I present them to council and to the public and to the press. So, y'all need to really get your back straight, you know, your your uh accuracy of your I I put a thorough response together to your last uh false allegations. >> Thank you, Mr. Whitaker. Is there anyone else online that would like to make a comment on any topic? Anyone else in the room? Councelor Doyle. Um, yeah, I would just like to acknowledge Mr. Whitaker's remarks, but also say that I don't believe that Mike Miller is a lies. I trust his professional judgment. That's all. Um, okay. Thank you for that. Any other comments from councel? Before we take a break, I would just like to say that uh while everyone in the public is entitled to their opinion, we may all uh have difference of agreement on what is and is not factually accurate. Please always check and doublech checkck your sources. Um not everything everyone says can possibly be true. Thank you very much. And with that, oh, Manager Curry, do you have something else? >> You know, I don't ordinarily do this and I'm open to push back by counselors, but I do think that some of what Mr. Whitaker just said really merits a response. First off being that anyone in this city who works for it either at this table and serves or under my direction or at the police department is somehow responsible for the violent assaults that we have been seeing coming out of some of the folks who are in the unhoused community recently. It is completely inappropriate to assume that those are linked and those are acceptable behaviors that we as a community or as an organization should tie together. I think that is unconscionable to me and I just wanted to defend staff and the police department and all of the very challenging work that they are doing in a system that is repeatedly failing to create accountability for repeated behaviors along these lines. It is a significant struggle that I know this council has interest in addressing in the ways that we can figure out best to be effective. I also would point out that Mr. Whitaker is currently going to the Supreme Court to sue around the city plan which he is he is now defending that we should be enforcing. Of course, I think we should follow through on the city plan, but the credibility from a person who is suing to have it overturned, I find to be, you know, questionable in its um integrity. So, I'm sorry. I'm troubled by those things. I want to sort of defend the efforts of them and the city staff who have put in significant effort to bring all those positive intents forward. >> Just to correct in the >> You are not recognized as you are not recognized. misinformed. >> Mr. Whitaker, you are not recognized and you're out of order. >> So, you're yelling you're out of order. You're >> Mr. Whitaker, you are out of order. >> I have >> Mr. Whitaker, please cease and this you are out of order. >> The Supreme Court is to >> Ladies and gentlemen, we are in recess. >> Gentlemen, it is 8:11 on Wednesday, August 26, 2026. This meeting of my city council is called back into order. Uh from our recess, we are moving on to agenda item number seven, the committee administration policy. I'll hand it over to manager Curry to tee this up. >> All right. You >> sorry before before you go on. Um these following items are informal consideration. There is no uh binding decision to be made tonight. Likely outcomes would be we would learn. Maybe we would direct staff to come back with some clarification. Maybe we would set a date in the future for some type of decision, but these are items for discussion and giving direction to staff, not for binding decisions by council. All right. >> May I make a slight correction to that? >> Yeah, please. >> Because you will vote on committee appointments >> as your next agenda item. So, these are internally focused that support um you know, council's work and advice to council. >> Thanks. I nailed it. All right. It's our first time putting this into effect. I think I think you're doing great. >> All right. Go ahead. Thank you. >> Um Okay. So, the committee administration policy, the city council has um has wanted to adopt a policy that helps um organize, streamline, make more efficient and productive the relationship between its advisory bodies and the city council. Um in a nutshell, you have discussed this beginning June of 2025 over a number of meetings since then and have further um and further refined sort of the scope and objectives of that. And the last meeting that we had in April 8th, uh you directed um me to rework the policy language to incorporate the goals that have been discussed up to there and or up to that time and to bring back um another round of draft language for your review. So that is what I've done today. I will apologize. A handful of people have pointed out some copy edits to me which I appreciate um doing so and we'll update and um clarify any inconsistencies in a draft that we bring back. And so what um I'm requesting now is your review of the content of the draft policy. Um, upon tonight's discussion, I will send it out to all of the committee chairs tomorrow for their review and input, which we will incorporate into a proposed final draft for the second meeting in September. An additional approach to this draft of the policy language was I pulled out some of the specific implementation sta language that was included in earlier rounds as um those are appropriate for you know staff implementation and to make sure that the policy goes into effect and which um by keeping them out gives us a bit more flexibility in how we are able to approach it. For example, um right now we're thinking that we would do the committee's um annual reappoint process or open up for appointment process in line with town meeting day kind of right after town meeting day sometime in March. Um we may find that that's doesn't work best and a different time of year might be better for that. And so by not by not specifying that in the policy, it gives some flexibility on staff to hit the benchmarks that are included in the policy, but have um some latitude on when, how, and where we do those. Um and so I'm happy to walk through it if you all would like. Um I have formatted it in a way that looks similar to all of our other policies. Um providing the purpose, um spelling out the authority. So authority is granted to this body in a number of different ways, including Vermont state statute that addresses the requirement for council to to appoint certain um quas judicial boards. Uh your authority in the city charter and in the city code of ordinances on creating advisory boards and and for um terminating those advisory boards as well. And then um the application of you know who does this policy apply to? It's going to apply to you all. It's going to apply to staff. It applies to the members of the um advisory boards as well. And then we had previously talked about you know the organization of um how you think of your advisory bodies. There are different categories of advisory bodies. Most of this language has not changed from the last conversation we had in April. And so um you know you have identified categories of committees, boards, commissions and task forces and there are slight variations in which each what each of those do and then we further have assigned um tiers to those advisory bodies which reflect their differing mandates and responsibilities. So tier one bodies are legally required. These are the ones that typically are quasi judicial boards such as the development review board, um the board of abatement, etc. Um tier 2 standing committees that are providing ongoing strategic input to city council. They tend to last over multiple city council compositions over years and decades. And then also timebound issue specific advisory boards which you task with here's a problem of of you know an in more immediate nature and this council wants advice from that type of board. Um and so that that affects you know how what the expectations around those different categories and tiers of boards are. We had a discussion in April about term limits. Um the direction I heard at that time was there was there was not a desire to place a total number of years on any one volunteer on an advisory board, but there was an interest in being able to open up the application process for advisory boards so as to allow new members the opportunity to to request to council to participate on those boards. Currently, we have some boards where, you know, positions don't turn over. people are in those seats for many many years. That's not inherently a bad thing. But you have if you have a full board, someone who may be interested in that spot would never have occasion to apply to you to be appointed. And so that is how um term limits is captured in um in this draft policy. Um removing advisory boards. This um this is spelled out. forget if it's in the code or in charter but um you know members of boards can be rem removed for um cause the practice of that has been if the advisory board recommends it council affirms that decision or not and then we had a discussion about the um status of different advisory boards because as you all have I think part of what inspired this work was looking at the number of boards that counselors serve on whether those boards are are meeting, whether they are meeting effectively, whether they are able to have quorum, whether their charge continues to um be pertinent and so had defined um some terms around um whether they are active, inactive or dissolved. And in April, there was a number of committees that you had agreed to dissolve because they met the criteria of having either no longer been necessary, not had not had quorum, had not met for several years. um etc. And I included those again in the cover sheet for this packet. And then um I think some of the the interest from counselors as well was being able to provide training develop you know onboarding training and development to committee members so that as they are joining these boards they are feeling supported and understanding what their role in the broader governance of the city is. an understanding of their charge and a connection to the city plan and the strategic plan that councilors set and being able to report out on um the work that they are doing so that council has an opportunity to respond to the efforts of those um committees. There have been instances in the past where for a variety of reasons whether that's not there's not been consistent staff or counselor presence or otherwise that some committees have created recommendations that when brought to council did not align with what council had been either expecting or hoping for. And that created a sense of alienation by the committee members and confusion from council and a recognition that if we are creating systems of better onboarding and development and communication um that you know both parties will be working more closely together to make sure that council is getting the support and advice they need and the volunteer committees are focused on work that will be meaningful and productive. Um and so we've built in some some expectations around that and then reiterations around transparency and that all committees must um you know adhere to open meeting law. Um and then some time timeliness on providing you all with comm communications and reports. Um, so that's kind of a a five minute run through of all the different elements of the draft um policy and I look forward to input on content. I'm happy um to accept any red lines um if you want to send those to me offline to incorporate and um and then of course I'll bring forward to you more feedback. Um, and so I propose that we revisit this for potentially final adoption at the second meeting in September to give that time to collect input on this. At that time, I'll also spell out kind of my draft implementation plan of um, you know, what a sample reporting form would look like, what the timelines would be for opening up um, applications for new members, when we would onboard those new members, etc. Is is there time for you to give that feedback, get enough feedback and then bring all that back to us in two weeks because I think you said >> three weeks. Yeah. Oh, >> we have an intervening, you know, I think we have >> second meeting in September, so it's a month from now. Okay, great. Um, >> councelor Sheron, we'll come to you in a second, but I think councelor Con, I saw your hand go up first. >> Yeah, thank you. I just want to um repeat what Kelly just said like I will say yes uh to this version uh of the policy but it will be great to see all the uh details that I send a send a list of questions uh to the council and city manager uh and see them in the second um draft in September. >> Thank you. Yes, I reviewed those and I think um there's some of them that definitely belong in the policy and I think the others will become clearer with the draft implementation plan for your review. >> Um sorry I have a lot of windows to flip through. Councelor Con, is is that all for you for now before we go to councelor Sheridan? >> Okay, councelor Sheridan, you had your hand up. >> Yeah. Um, I have a issue with part of it where it says removal of a member from the board requires a majority vote of the remaining members. I don't think that that should be the policy or how we should do it because you're pitting volunteers against volunteers and I don't think they should be the ones that have to hate each other or whatever. I think that's something that should fall on the council. I don't have a problem with them submitting something to the council saying we're having a problem with one person, but I don't think they should be voting on that. They should be the ones that vote on getting rid removing somebody. I think they can suggest it to us, give their reasons, have both people come in and state their sides, but I think that should be a council decision. We're the ones that take on this position. We're the ones that are used to having arrows fired at us and stuff like that. So, I I I just think that you're gonna make some people not want to be on boards if they have to get in fights or arguments with fellow board members that, you know, they got to pick some of them got to gang up on somebody else. I I just don't think that's a good way to do it. I think it should be they can certainly say to us we're having a real problem with this person and we're going to testify a bunch of us but I think it should be us that delivers the hammer because we're used to have being hammered. So, and the other thing is um I want I would want to know when we about these trainings, who's going to hold them, who's going to collect the documentation of them so that we know people have completed them by whom and all that. I think that I'm I'm very much in agreement with what you said about trainings and stuff, but I want to know somebody has to figure out what the training is, make sure people actually get it and uh it's documented somewhere so that when they come into a committee, we know that they've had this kind of training. That's all. So, but I think that's very I'm totally for the idea. I just think it should be handled in a way that we know what we're getting and we know where everybody stands. So, thank you. >> Great. Thank you, Councelor Sheridan. Does uh does anyone have any more to add or detract from what's come so far? Councelor Doyle. >> Well, I want Could you talk just a little bit more about like council providing written feedback and that kind of you know the the accountability and reporting section? I'd love to hear more about. So this is a whole hold over from prior drafts. Yeah. >> And um what I understood to be the intent there is that you want to have a process of feedback where the council is hearing what the annual work plan is, regular reports on the committee. um you know confirming that they are meeting and having quorum and making progress toward the work plan and then being able to provide that feedback from you all to them. You know I would advise that that happen through your advisory your or sorry your liaison to the committees um to come from you. This would require you know we carve out some time on a quarterly or whatever timely interval basis for you to review those and you know either say this looks good nothing to we all affirm that we have no feedback for this committee or I would like to get more detail from this committee or excuse me fellow counselor you sit on this committee can you please tell them we would like to see more um definition along these lines is how I think that work like how that gets mechanized. Does that make sense? >> Yeah, I think so. Okay. >> Um, >> yeah, I think it's that feedback loop is super important to avoid the kind of >> misunderstandings that you referenced earlier. I would just hope that it wouldn't be too like cumbersome for anyone involved. >> Right. That's I I felt that that's where I was going. Well, >> because there is the who is going to do that, how much time is going to be required to fulfill that. At the same time the the documentation of the feedback is as important as the feedback itself probably. Right. >> 68 page report. >> Yeah. >> Um okay. Um I >> we the way the conversations we had earlier around this was around like again like a form that they would fill out like you have you met in the last quarter? Have you had a quorum? this is what you know have you met the goals of your annual plan which I would anticipate would be tied directly to the city plan you know yes or no we've made these goals we haven't made these goals and and that is the sign off by committee to >> and would that that'll be like integrated into the training too right yeah >> great okay >> good questions >> um I wonder because counselor because we're we're here in the public and we've heard your questions and councelor Con's questions were submitted through email. I wonder if it is worth us just reading what those questions were just for the record or for the benefit of the public who did not receive councelor Con's email. Um, councelor Con, if you would like to read them, that's fine. If not, because you're not in the room, I'm happy to read them for you. >> Yeah, you can read them. Thank you. >> Okay. Just just to keep everybody up to date on on what the discussion is around this. Um so councelor Conn just sent these these questions back to the room. There was no further discussion afterwards but her questions were how will we know whether the policy is working i.e. is there some sort of evaluation plan? What does written feedback from council mean which is largely what councelor co Doyle's question was. Um who prepares it the council liaison the council president staff or full counsel? Does council need to approve it? These are good questions. um who will track reports, work plans, presentations, training, committee status and website documentation. Who will develop, administer and maintain the required training, which is similar to councelor Sheran's question, what will the training look like? How long will it take? And who will track the completion? And can we clarify inactive versus on hold? The policy identifies the statuses as active, on hold, or dissolves, but then uses inactive throughout the criteria. So that I don't know if that's just a clarification and writing one of your copy edits. Okay, >> great. Um, any other questions or comments from council about this? Councilor Alfano. Well, I just want to uh note that uh we we also received some comments from from the public that I thought were well some were copy copy edit comments. Some were um questions about for example the status section which is unclear on for example I think that for a committee to be deemed active it needs to fulfill more than one of those items in the list whereas to be considered inactive or dissolved it may take only one of those you see you see what I'm saying there's it's unclear how those criteria are applied. Um I know Mr. Kilman, for example, had had some comments that um I think ought to be cons ought to be considered as you revise. >> Great. Thank you. Um >> yes, thank you, Peter. >> Anyone else? No, I I appreciate that that uh city manager Curry is going to the chairs and hopefully there'll be a discussion within committees about the policy and people will be able to knock it around a little bit and get back to you. I think that's going to be really useful and you'll get a lot of feedback and I'm sure we'll look forward to digesting that. Councelor Alano, um manager Kelly, will that will that happen? Uh, quickly, I'm just wondering because the um the very first complete streets meeting is next Wednesday. So, >> yeah, I was planning to do that tomorrow. >> We all met here tonight. >> Great. Thanks. Okay. >> If you hated it, I didn't want to circulate. >> So, thought it was good to get a barometer check. >> Great. So, um, there's no formal decision to be made here. It sounds like we've given some feedback. Manager Curry, do you have what you need to continue the work? >> I do. Yes. Thank you. >> Great. All right, then. Um, unless there is anything else at the last minute, we're going to move on to the next agenda item. Um, it is 8:32 and we are on to item number eight, committee appointments. Uh, manager Curry, do you want to >> Yeah. >> cue this up for us, please? And thank you. >> Yeah. So, you have um two applications um to serve on the homelessness committee of which there are two vacancies um as I understand it from Reverend Jay Vorhees who's here in the room and Nancy Reed as well. Um you also have an application for the historic preservation commission for Sebastian Delgado. Uh he is online so you are welcome to ask questions of him um as well. And you know you guys do this regularly and if you need to you are welcome to call an executive session to discuss the appointments um if you wish. >> Okay. So uh just to familiarize the the applicants who are here uh we'll invite we'll go in the order that you're appearing in the in the agenda but we'll invite you to make any statement that you like on your behalf. Please don't feel encouraged or discouraged if there are or not are or are not questions. There are two vacancies and two applicants. We've reviewed the materials that we have before us and so if it goes quickly that doesn't mean anything to the good or the bad. Um so uh uh Jay Vorhees you're up first on the in the agenda. So is there anything you would like to say? And you don't have a time limit, but you know. >> Oh, don't tell me that. I'm a Methodist pastor. I'm you know, you never know. Uh yeah, my name is Jay Vorhees. I am a resident of Montpielar and I serve as the pastor of the Trinity United Methodist Church, uh which has become infamous in recent weeks. Um I applied for several reasons. One is that a strong belief that this committee needs a member of the faith community to be on it. One of the things that is uh true in Montpielar as has been true for many years is that the faith community is often the being asked to provide social services to provide support for the poor. Uh that's part of our mandate. That's part of what we do. Um but because we are involved in that, we are also on front lines of uh dealing with our neighbors who are experiencing homelessness. And um I know that there have been uh attempts to have the faith comm community involved. I uh councelor Doyle will tell you that I avoided uh that for at his request and uh until Nancy Reed behind me basically twisted my arm and said, "I want you to apply." But um I come to the table with u really 20 years of uh working with homeless people. Most of those were in Nashville, Tennessee. Um but uh the last two years because of Trinity being the host for the community table program, uh we are definitely uh engaging with a number of the folks in the community. Um I have in my past experience, I served on the continuum of care for the city of Nashville. uh have uh served on the shelter uh and uh outreach committee in that town and then ran a facility that was a transitional facility uh for people moving people from the streets uh to housing which in Nashville we were we were averaging between 30 and 40% success rate of getting folks into housing. Uh I don't think that's going to happen here. But uh all this to say I do have a perspective in addressing this community. uh I know the difficulties we're facing and I hope that I can be a resource uh to help us kind of move forward. >> Great. Thank you. Um questions from council for Reverend Jay. >> I have no questions. I just want to say that I I appreciate your the efforts that you've demonstrated over the last few well since I've met you. >> Right. um dealing with this particular population, this these issues and uh I welcome your participation committee, >> Council Sheridan. >> Yeah, we could use you. >> Okay. Well, thanks. I appreciate it. >> I'm going to be very blunt. We can use you. And I'm great. I think it's great you're stepping forward. And in fact, I will make the motion that we put you on the committee. and thank you for stepping forward and thank you for twisting his arms. >> A second. >> Really quick, we have a motion and acceptance to and a second to uh accept Reverend J. Vorhees for service on the homelessness committee. Is there any discussion or debate on the topic? Uh seeing none, is that all in favor of accepting Reverend Jay Vorhees for service on the homelessness committee say I and raise your hand if you're online, please. I >> I >> Okay. Uh any opposed? >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> Thank you for your willingness to serve. >> Um Miss Reed, welcome. And >> thank you for coming. >> That about right. Uh my name is Nancy Reid. I live in Millar. Been here for 12 years. Um, I also am um on the board and a volunteer with the emergency cold weather shelter, which is a I think you've heard about trying to give space for people to stay warm in the wintertime. I'm also on the board and a volunteer with Just Basics, which is the food pantry. Um, and I work closely um with the community table on Mondays and other days. So I have seen the population um from multiple angles and one of the things that I find interesting is it's a very complex issue and when we talk about homelessness um the mayor Emma Mulvaney Stanic talked about the trifecta of homelessness being really lack of housing, untreated mental health issues and substance abuse. You can't speak about only one. They're all joined together. And I think we have a number of organizations in town, certainly the faith community as as Jay talked about, but Good Sam, Washington County Mental Health, Capstone, um churches, uh all these people have different um roles, but they don't appear to me to be coordinated and working together and all rowing in the in the same direction. So I come with this a certain level of frustration and impatience um because I I see a lot of people doing really good work but they're not coordinated. I refer to it as sort of um all spokes and no hub and if there was a way to sort of get people to work together I would really think that that would be terrifically um successful. And I would s remind um uh the city manager that a couple of months ago you convened a meeting right over there with a number of players. The fire chief was there, the police were there, Capstone was there. I thought it was a really good group of people and I would encourage considering reconvening that meeting because I think when you get everybody around the table, the police, the faith community, good Sam, um, and begin to work at this problem for what it is, which is a combination of mental health, housing, and substance abuse. And I see that as being a multifaceted program with that needs all of our help. So, thank you for the opportunity. >> Terrific. Thank Thank you. Thank you for that. Um, yeah. >> Any questions or comments from council? >> Councelor Sheridan. >> Well, first of all, she's has sat in on a couple meetings, so that's great. She's kind of watched. Um, I would add another spoke to that. You can give them mental health counseling. You can give them a house, but if they don't have any finances, it's not going to stick. So, it's it's a financial package, too. But, um, I think it's you're totally right, though. It's just not one thing. It's a lot of spokes and that's what makes it so complicated. So, thank you for attending our meetings to see if you wanted to become part and I'm glad you did and I'll make I'll move that you um join us. >> I'll second. We have a motion in a second to accept Nancy Reed onto service. Is there discussion or debate on the topic? >> I I'd just like to really thank Nancy for stepping up and I think it's a testament to her leadership that she was able to talk Jay into doing it, too. So, >> thank you. There you go. >> And >> I'll I'll say also that I I appreciate your nuanced interpretation of of the uh that it's not a simple situation and there are no simple solutions and that the city is one of many entities and partnership is going to be a is a real essential piece. >> I would say this at the state level as well. We we have to think of them as one of the spokes. Um, and the other thing I would just add is that everybody's doing their job well. You know, the police are doing their job well, this the churches, there's no nobody is not doing their job. I just think it everybody needs to be doing it in tandem and in coordination. >> Great. Any other discussion or debate around this topic? Seeing none, >> I would also like to thank you and and you Jay. Uh, you know, William James called the battle against poverty the functional equivalent of war. And um, people who stand up in that battle are great heroes of our society and great heroes of Montpielar. And I just deeply appreciate you being on the line for this and and doing what you can. And I think you can count on the support of council as as the work proceeds. We want to hear from you. We will hear through Jim certainly, but from all of you. >> Good to hear. Great. All in favor of accepting Nancy Reed for service on the homelessness committee, please say I and raise your hand if you're online. >> I I >> All right. Any opposed? Any abstensions? Unanimously passed. Thank you for your willingness to serve. We look forward to your contribution. Um All right. And on to Mr. Delgado who is online looking for you here. >> That's right. Um thank you. >> Yeah. Hi. Um, please go ahead and say anything you'd like to introduce yourself. >> Yeah. Well, first I'd like to thank the council. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, for for having me out here today. And, uh, you know, my name is Sebastian Delgado. I've lived in Montpelier a very brief time. I've been here for about a year and a half. Um, and during that time, I've served the Keller Cobb Library Board. Um, I've gotten a lot of interaction with the community. In fact, I've gotten to learn more about Montpelier through service in that in the library board. Uh, and then as far as what drove me to to apply to this open open committee appointment is that, you know, Montpelier for as small as it is, is very rich in history. And I think it's important as as much as we want to look forward into the future in many ways, it's important that we preserve those links to the past. Uh, and that's where the role of the commission would step in and I would love to help in any way I can to to make that happen. Uh, I know it's a history lesson. I I won't bore you with one tonight. Uh, I really appreciate any trust that you might place in me and I'm very honored to be here. Uh, MP has become my home over the last year and a half and I this is a very small thing that I can do to thank it for it. >> Great. Thank you for the for your words and your willingness to step up. Before I open up for questions, just clarification. There are six voting members and one alternate. The alternate seat is currently vacant. Is is Mr. Delgado being considered for the alternate seat or one of the six seats >> on >> I'm considered for the alternate seat. >> Right. >> Okay. Right. >> Thank you. Does anyone on council have questions uh for Mr. Delgado? >> Mr. Doyle. Just as someone who works in the field of historic preservation, I just want to say it's wonderful to see somebody of Mr. Delgato's age interest in this topic. It's a fantastic committee. I think you'll really have a great time and the wealth of knowledge there around the history of Montiel on that committee is phenomenal. So I I'd be happy to make a motion to uh nominate Mr. Delgato for the alternate position on the Historic Preservation Commission. >> Okay, I'll second that. >> All right, we got a couple of seconds. I I think just I think the motion was to accept Mr. Delgado for service on the Yes. Yes. Okay. >> Um and we have a second. Any discussion or debate around the topic? >> All right. Seeing none, all in favor of uh accepting Sebastian Delgado for service on the Historic Preservation Commission. Say I. >> I. I. >> I. >> Any opposed? Any abstensions? It unanimously passes. Mr. Delgado, thank you very much for your willingness to serve and we look forward to your contribution. >> Thank you all. >> All right, at this time we are at this time which specifically is 8:45. Wow, we are exactly on schedule. I don't know how that happened, but we're on to discussion items and specifically item number nine, the homelessness update. Uh, thank you. >> No, they're staying with the homeless. >> They're staying. Okay. For the Oh, I see. >> I hope so. >> All right. Uh, Manager Curry, please go ahead and tee this up for us. >> So, as this is a standing item on the agenda and we continue to list the things that came out of the April 29th special meeting, many of which have been addressed multiple times. I want to call attention to a few. Um, and as you know, Matt Jacles, who staffs this committee, has been doing a lot of efforts um, to address many of these things and who has been on vacation and so I have not been able to connect with him, but I do want to connect I I do want to talk with you all about a couple of things here. Um and so in particular relative to the city hall shelter u the space in city hall and whether or not that will be used for shelter um I have um I'm going to be scheduling a meeting when Matt and I sync our calendars tomorrow with the Mont Pillar cold weather shelter folks to discuss that. I do think it's important that we figure out if there is a proposal that will come forward for your review um to use this space with enough time for us to do some of the improvements that we had discussed. And so I'm hopeful that that will come forward in September, giving us a few weeks to get any of that work done in advance. Um so that is what's going on with that. I'll note, you know, Matt is regularly attending meetings of the um situation table and another group that convenes the um providers regularly that I'm I think it's called Thrive um as well. And so, you know, making those efforts to have people around the table engage in those conversations, figure out the opportunities and strategies for the city. Um, one of those involves whether Cap whether Capstone's going to consider the 148 State Street building that Jesse Jacobs is looking to rent for a more permanent emergency shelter. Um, and what role the city might play in supporting that endeavor. Um, I don't have any additional information because they were doing some evaluations on the status of that building before coming back with any proposals for you all, but that is continuing to move forward along those lines. Um, and then councelor Brown had wished to discuss um lockers that had been installed in prior years which were available for members of the um homeless population to reserve and utilize. Th those were installed in the back of the rec center. Um, councelor Brown, I'm happy to share some of the detail, but maybe do you want to frame up the conversation and your reason for bringing it forward and I can answer at least what I've learned about past decisions on that resource. >> Sure. Yeah, thanks for including this. At the last homelessness committee meeting that I was at, the topic of these lockers came up and and I I forget what year it was, but um several years ago I was on the council at the time the um the city installed lockers for unhoused people to be able to store stuff in safely. uh they're behind the rec center and there was a whole policy developed and a procedure for how people would be able to have access to those and um and it just uh it it seemed to me like it sort of fizzled out. I didn't remember ever hearing anything about what happened to it or um whether it was just sort of not working or had been officially discontinued. It's possible I missed something, but at this last homelessness committee meeting, it was brought up that the city had decided to discontinue this um project and I wanted to bring it back for us to take a look at again and to see if there are adjustments that need to be made to make it more practical to if there are safety considerations that need to be met. Um, but we have these lockers. They're sitting there. they're available. We should make use of them if we possibly can. So, um, what I've what I've learned from there there's not a lot of institutional knowledge around the time when these were brought on or any decision to discontinue their use. But um what I have learned is that in 2022 is when these the city went forward, they got approval from the development review board to locate 12 lockers behind the rec center and then created essentially an application form for um members of the community who could go into the clerk's office and fill out this application for a three-month period of use, obtain a key um to the lockers and that's what's on paper. I don't know what how that matches with how they were functionally used. Um the investment at the time from what I can tell was around $2,600. They are still there. They were installed, so they're they're still there. Some of the um lockers currently have locks on them. Um to which keys? We don't know where those are. Um, some of them have broken lock. Um, >> hasps. >> Clasps. >> Hasps. I don't know. >> Latches. Sure. Uh, the function that allows the door to be locked to the structure, some of those are broken. They would need to be repaired or something would need to be soldered to them to make them functional again. Um, and it doesn't sound like based on what I understood the history of discontinuing those, which is sounds like the the process required accompaniment of a city staff member with the individual wanting to use the lockers or using the lockers to go with them to that physical location. That's not really how the policy is is written out. The way it's written out is they would make an application form, submit it to the clerk. The clerk would give them the lock and the key, and they'd be on their own to select which locker is available to use. Of course, that doesn't line up with what we've heard about the discontinuation, which was related, the stories I've heard anyway are related to um some staff members feeling unsafe accompanying the folks to those lockers and therefore an administrative decision was made to not continue to pursue that program. Um I don't know again I I'm not going to attest to sort of the the ver the ver verifiability the veracity of of that but that is what I understand it to be and um you know you do have a policy on the books about this and you do have this resource there. >> Brown followup. Yeah, I'm wondering what um obstacles you might see to simply bringing this policy back and re-implementing it as it is. >> Is it clearly existing policy or is it something that we would need to basically read or reaffirm to give you clarity? >> I mean, I I have not spent it I literally just found these documents this afternoon. And I haven't spent a ton of time diving into this. I think articulating what the goals would be. If the goals are that the city is going to manage this, if the goals are that we want one of our partners to manage this, if this is an item for the homelessness committee to figure out a recommendation to council, um I think that an assessment of the the utility the continued utility of them physically will be required. Um, you know, we would have to, I think, break the locks off of some of the ones that still are there and figure out what is inside. I imagine they require some degree of cleaning. I think there's some operational elements to execute that that we would have to analyze that I I have not analyzed for you tonight. Um, you know, I I think that you have if you're giving things away and expecting them to come back and get signed in, I'm not sure that's a threshold you're going to meet. I'm not sure how practical that is. Um, if if there's some other resource, you know, if you want to have a collection of locks and you just give them out and whoever can use an available locker for as long as they need it. And if there's a period of time where we audit those, that's fine. Again, these are sort of operational things that I think would be best um as a recommendation from the homelessness committee to council uh around. >> I think I may I jump in front of you for a second, councelor Brown. I think I would agree that knowing is that the best location for them. Um is the city best is the city the best party to sort of manage the application the control of the locks and the overseeing of the thing or is there a partner that makes more sense either in that location or at another location. These would be questions I would have also. Are the lockers currently usable? If yes or no, what would be the potential cost and effort by the city in order to make them usable in whatever location? And I agree that this would be the kind of thing that we're not going to figure out in this room based off of what we know and leaning on the expertise of our committee to come forward with a recommendation probably is the most advisable path. Personal opinion. Councelor Brown, do you have anything to add or detract from that? >> Uh, yeah. Um, I I think that the policy, the way it's currently written and the procedures is pretty clear and pretty, um, straightforward and unambiguous and, um, I think we could we could simply pick it back up again and start it up again. Um, if there are if city staff is feeling like there are additional questions like raising the possibility that some other organization might be the better choice to manage it. I think that's fine. I I as a liaison to the homelessness committee, I would love to see those questions very specifically articulated so that the homeless committee could answer because we have a procedure in place. we're not doing it for unclear reasons and we should be doing it. Um, so if we're if there are reasons to not do it or there questions that need to be answered before it can be done, they should it's okay for with me if the homelessness committee is tasked with trying to answer some of those. But please give very specific questions and and really I would just really encourage us to look at what the existing policy is and identify specifically what problems there may be with it currently that would prevent us from simply reactivating it. >> S has a question. Oh, councelor Alfano. >> Well, I'm just wondering if the uh I mean I I like the idea of of trying to revive the lockers. I think it's a need um for this population to have, you know, have a place like this to store stuff. Um but I but the fact that it's it's not being used, I I mean, I think we ought to investigate why why how that happened. What what is it about it that didn't work? Um or, you know, what was the cause? Was there a definitive cause or did it just um stop being used for no, you know, no particular reason? Nothing structural, nothing about the system. Um and it also occurs to me that we're probably not the only place that provides these that I mean it I think we probably would end up giving out a lot of keys and a lot of locks. I mean it's just there has to be a better way and I'll bet somebody's figured it out. like maybe New York City, you know, has figured out how to do that and maybe we can investigate that and maybe this the the street the folks who are on the street um have an a little uh deeper understanding of how it was used, where it may have needed improvement so that we don't repeat uh you know the errors of the past and that falls very nicely into the homelessness committee I So, so what I think I'm hearing is there's there's an appetite for understanding what the current state of those lockers is, what it was that um caused the program to stop working or being effective, but also hearing from councelor Brown that um in the absence of I mean whether we have those reasons or not, if it is possible to enact existing policy that we should do that and if we're going to ask the committee to come back to us with something, we should be very specific with what we want them to come back to us with. Am I understanding everyone's uh questions or comments correctly? Councilor Brown, disabuse me if I'm misstating. >> No, I I think you stated it very very well. I would just encourage us not to spend a lot of time uh revisiting the fundamental questions that the city council already answered when it set this up as such as where should the lockers go? Um how many should there be? Do we how how what's our procedure for giving out locks and keys? That is all already decided and written down and very very clear and we had lots of discussions about that at the time. So I mean of course we can revisit it at any time but I would encourage us not to spend a lot of time on that to recognize that that work has largely been done and so now it's identifying if there are any if something has changed so that it doesn't it won't work anymore then we need to identify that really clearly and I don't know what that is um but city staff may have some feedback about what that is and I think that the yeah so that's all. Thank you. >> That sounds reasonable to me. Before I go to Manager Curry, let's just take a check of the council. Does this sound like something generally that the council is in agreement with or is this the will of one counselor to to sort of direct staff to look into this further? Any objections to this, I suppose, is the question. >> I just it's not clear to me that manager Curry has a direction. Right. But that's that's that's my next question which is to to say manager Curry >> what is the the doability of this and what cl further clarification would you need? >> I mean again I would like to request additional time to review this. I think there are clearly operational things that have not been considered in this policy. my I could easily see that someone loses a key and a staff member accompanied those persons to the locker and that was the cause of the problem. I'm speculating. I don't know that to be true. I wasn't here in 2022. I can't find anyone to tell me that. But operationally, I can see how that would be a very easy thing. And so there are there are just some elements of and like who's going to be in charge of going out every 90 days and cleaning these up? um you know what like who's accountable for tracking that? Do we care that much? You know um as far as creating opportunities for the most amount of people is that why a 90-day term is set. I think that I mean, you know, I'm not I'm not asking for a rehash, but I'm just saying I think there are things here that are not as clear as it might seem. And, you know, making this another thing that staff is taking on when we don't have dedicated staff to homelessness is is another way to another thing to figure out on the plate. Um, and I'm not prepared to say how feasible or infeasible that is. I do think the homelessness that this is sort of a perfect thing for the homelessness committee to wrestle with to work with the staff liaison to figure out some of the operational recommendations and um and bring that back. It is true, Council Brown, that um even if we have a clear policy enacted that the current state of staff and presumably it would it was under the recck department if these things were at the rec center to manage this if they were going into the rec center to do that that are my office. >> Oh, okay. John ODM Scott is actually a finance staffer who was um managing that at the time. Um, I was sort of aware of how it was working, but not that aware. So, I just wanted to make sure that was out there because it was out of my office. >> So, people would come to your office to check out locks or whatever. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um, All right. So, Manager Curry, what do you propose we do in response to Councilor Brown's request here? Um, I I guess I would propose that this be um referred to the homelessness committee, you know, with staff support to evaluate and make any clarifying recommendations around this policy for further review of councel. >> Right. I'm seeing some nodding around the room. Um, councelor Brown, you're the one that brought this up. Does that seem amendable to you as well? Yeah, I'm that sounds fine and I'm happy to kind of take um take a little ownership of making sure that it gets to the committee and gets discussed. >> Great. Thank you very much. Um more on this, not the locker specifically, but on this agenda topic. Councelor Con? >> Yeah, thank you. I just want to ask um if city staff uh saw all the front port front port forum posts about public safety related to the unhoused uh population and is there any plan to reach out these people? Um I want to really help vulnerable population we have. I really understand they are having such a challenging situations in their lives and I don't say that all unhoused people have the same um how can I say they have the same things like uh acting in the same way. uh but it is also important that there is some kind of concerns and they are getting more and more every day. So is there any plan to reach out these people or anything we could do make all community members feel safe when they go downtown? I can explain what the front por for front porch forum says. Some woman were writing uh harass uh and some people think that these are done by some of the unhoused people. Uh and woman some women say that they don't feel walking or shopping downtown. Uh so that's I think general discussion happening publicly right now. >> Edric Curry, you were going to say something. >> Yeah, I'm I'm aware of these. I think that um you know I meet with the police chief regularly. We are regularly talking about how the importance of public the perception of public safety is as important as the um you know what the data says about public safety. So you know I I have a lot of concern about this. Um I think that there I think this is a conversation that is ripe for council to have and I know councelor Cohen you have raised you know a framework around this conversation. um about how we would work with the state. You know, I think that um there's a lot to think through there. And you know, I've spoken with the police chief about how we may have additional ways to try and be out in the public more and um create visibility. Um, you know, as as you know, they are very understaffed and we are we are really trying to leverage the best that we can with all of our um all of our resources that we have right now. You know, we've been talking about how this is a pattern that if you remember this time last year, you know, we were dealing with um all the events happening at Confluence Park. I don't think that it is. Um I guess I guess to me I get this is something we should be preparing for every year as we're getting through the summer. If the conditions are not going to change, if the investment in resources is not going to change that, you know, by the time August rolls around, we've we are seeing more incidences that are of a violent nature. Um I don't want that to be the case in this city. I would like for us to really put our heads together and figure out how we um create more resources to address this topic about how we um take more proactive measures for the business community to clearly um you know understand what resources are are available for everyone who lives here to feel more available. But I think that that has to be a message from city council and I know that it has been something that um I've heard from a number of you on like what more can we do and how does this run into conflict with some of the approaches that we've had in the past that maybe were relevant in the past but maybe require some nuance or update now. Um, you know, all of which is to talk around the topics that this is not this is not in alignment with the goals that you all have. You know, this is not in alignment with your goals for building a city where people um feel welcome, where people feel safe, where economic development is one of our top pillars. And, you know, when we get to our sort of next topic or future agendas, we'll be scheduling a um a check-in on the strategic plan. And I'm going to recommend at that time that you add a pillar to the strategic plan that deals with public safety because it's something that we're talking about a lot, but I think we don't have clear goals around and I think it would really benefit um you all and your leadership and the community to get clarity around that. >> Um any followup, counselor con before I go to >> uh No, I said thank you. >> Okay. Thank you, councelor Sheridan. >> Okay. Um, I go to all the MBA meetings and it's certainly becoming more of a concerning topic with them. Um, some of them are just say to me, they're just taking over. And, um, we're losing customers and I did bring I talked about the violence last time about all the incidents that are serious. I mean, people are being sent to the hospital and I think there's a lot of concern in the city about this problem right now being spoken, you know, and it's I hate to see it so much on the public forums because, you know, there's a lot of misinformation and stuff like that. And I I don't know. I think that we have new members on the committee. I think we're going to have to do a lot of serious talking in the future about how we deal with this stuff because it's it seems like it's just getting worse. I I went around to some business owners and talked to them about it and they're just kind of throwing up their hands. They just don't know what to do. So, I mean, it's it's reaching into a lot of a lot of areas and I just think it's growing. I think we're getting more and more people coming in. And I think Kelly's right. This is not going to go away. Just because the winter comes, it's going to be back. And I think we have to be a lot clearer about how we want to move forward with the meager resources we have. Certainly, we need to get coordination like uh Nancy was talking about. So, because it's to me, it's getting bad out there. I go downtown sometimes and just sit and I can hear the screaming and the hollering and you know potential almost fights and I'm wondering if we might want to while we are short staffed do like Burlington did and ask for maybe some state police help. I mean after all we are the capital city. I mean, we know that they're having trouble over in the pavilion dealing with this where they got that squawking bird or whatever. So, maybe we just could maybe think about a couple state police every now and then coming down and walking through because people are scared. I go to Shaws all the time and I think they're, you know, they're seeing less business and they're seeing more um shoplifting. So, it's it's it's really the tentacles are really striking into a lot of aspects. So, >> I councelor Doyle. Um, yeah, I just want to say like I I uh I work downtown on corner state in Maine and I'm, you know, around downtown every day and I definitely do see in increases in in challenging behavior. Uh, I also just want to say that like I feel like this is the first summer since the flood that like downtown feels like really vibrant again. um you know in some in some ways that aren't great but that there is a I do think a lot of positive energy and you know new businesses opening and um some really good things and I actually was thinking just this morning about something that you had referenced mirror I don't know a couple months ago about the idea of like going to those community lunches trying to build connections with people uh to like reinforce that social contract that I think like diminishes negative behavior like I saw an individual who I've seen around town who I presume is homeless who was, you know, using drugs on a bench the other day and it really bothered me. It really bothered me. My son was nearby, really thought about it and I saw him this morning, the same individual and didn't mention that. But um tried to have a conversation with him about, you know, how you doing, who are you? you know, was thinking about you like, and I think things like that are not going to solve our public safety crisis, but I think like we need to think about as a community about how we're strengthening the fabric of connection and that people know that we're thinking about them even when we're struggling. And it doesn't mean that they're not accountable for their behavior. Um, but I think we need to I guess it's a long way of saying I think going to community lunches is really important and uh I think we should do more of that. >> All right, Vicki, thank you. Um uh thanks for that councelor Doyle. I mean I I think that my just my summation of of where we find ourselves is that the the community has a broad spectrum of attitudes towards this issue and many things could be true at once. It is true that some folks are experiencing their worst day and really need help and we really need to help them. It is also true that everybody deserves to feel safe in our shared spaces and we cannot just abdicate our shared spaces to the worst behavior that someone may choose to exhibit whether they're having their worst day or not. And both of those things are true. And if we lean into feeding people and give providing beds through partnership with other organizations to people, then there is then talk that all we want to do is house and feed people and therefore we condone all of the negative behaviors that we see, which is not true. And if we want to lean into moving people out of shared spaces because of behaviors, then we also we're also met with the counter that you have no compassion for people and you just don't care about people. And that is not true. It is it is possible to both have compassion, provide lunches, meet people with hum with humanity and dignity and also hold people accountable. What is the way to do that? That is the whole rub. I don't know the answer. Neither does the faith community. Neither does the state government. Neither does anybody on council. And neither do the police or the city manager. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I would love to hear what that solution is. But I think that there are solutions to any one of the facets. But every lever we move moves four other levers in different ways. And there is no perfect combinations to get all the levers in just the right way so that everyone's needs are met. that everyone feels safe in our shared spaces and everyone uh can be provided for. I I not not to just say there is no answer. I just don't know what that answer is. Um Major Curry, do you have an answer? Please. >> I have a lot of ideas and I will be bringing forward some recommendations for you all to consider. um you know and I and I again I think this will all depend on conversation about putting public safety as a pillar in the strategic plan to sort of focus staff around these topics and goals that you might want to see relative to it. Um and I would just say you know in in every conversation I have with you know police officers the interim police chief you know who approach these issues with I think a very high degree of compassion. I mean, this is this is a community that does community comp policing at its core and in its culture. And they will always say, "Call dispatch. If you see something that you don't know how to deal with, if you see something, if you're experiencing something that makes you feel unsafe, if you see a behavior that can be a mental health behavior, they are trained to know on whether that is a police response or whether that is a call that's going to Washington County mental health or if there is that's an ambulance response, you know, call dispatch and they they are trained to make that decision and to help adjudicate those, you know, very difficult in the- moment things and so I just want the community to know that anytime I'm having conversations you with our interim police chief about things or or situations that I want to help manage or you know it's always please call dispatch you know they are professionals they are trained they know the direct resources they know the status of those resources sometimes unfortunately we're three calls in behind a crisis clinician being able to respond but it's better that that is in the queue than someone on the street not knowing how to deal with that or ignoring it or not feeling like there's any resources or knowing that they're available is just, you know, a hopeful message that gets clearly relayed. And so before we move on from this, I do think this is a great opportunity. I want to respond to councelor Con's proposal because her, you know, she she offered to council a proposal around um, you know, advocacy at the state level around these topics. Um, and I think maybe without diving in detail on that, what I what I would like to just say is I've heard interest from, you know, councelor Con, from um from councelor Brown, from the mayor, the three of you in particular around wanting to be engaged in advocacy at the state level. As you know, when we talked about sort of the four dimensions of action related to homelessness, one of them is advocating. And I think that I would recommend that the three of you and me all sit together and kind of talk about what an effective approach um might be to propose to the fuller council. And so I wanted to be responsive to councelor Con's um you know information that she had sent for your deliberation and that is what I would offer on how we follow up on an initial conversation around that. Any objection from other counselors that were not just named to be part of this group to talk about stuff? Great. We'll we'll make it so counselor con. Go ahead. >> Yeah. Uh I am happy uh to do that. So thank you for mentioning that. Um it one thing I just want to say out loud out loud because we are brainstorming it. I don't only want to see advocacy. I want to see some actionoriented like being proactive and like making this things happen just being a little bit more proactive what we need uh from state level um administration. So I think we are doing great advocacy with our lobbyists, us attending different meetings like using our uh personal connections. Some of us work at the state level but I think what we need we need a proactive approach before things are happening. We should be saying that we need this then we can really uh do things um before we need to deal with the impacts negative results of different uh incidents. Thank you. >> Thank you. Um anything else on this manager Curry? Any other final thoughts from council? Okay. Um, >> like comment. >> Uh, we're not taking comment at this time, but it is 9:21. We are moving on to uh, you're welcome to submit your comment in written form. >> Law requires you to allow public comment on the issues before the council. >> You're welcome to provide comment in written form. We're not taking public comment at this time. the but this council has met its obligations under open meeting law to provide a public comment period which has been conducted. >> Thank you. Um we're moving on to item number 10. Thank you all for your for being here and for your willingness to serve. Item number 10 uh the consent agenda. Um I don't remember if we can do this through unanimous consent. So, is there a motion to to approve the consent agenda as approved? >> I move we approve the consent agenda. >> Thank you, Councelor Doyle. Second. >> Thank you, Councelor Alfano. Is there any discussion or debate on this topic? >> Uh, all in favor of approving the consent agenda as presented, say I and raise your hand online. >> I opposed. Any uh abstensions? The consent agenda is passed unanimously. All right, we're moving on now at 9:23 to item number 11. This is a new item for us. It but I think this will appear on all future agendas, which is basically to talk about future agendas. Manager Curry, do you want to tee this up for us? >> Yes. I hope this is a useful and brief addition for you all because um I know often there is interest in when topics are coming back or when they are going to be discussed or um bringing forward items to your fellow counselors for conversation. And so uh what we have proposed here is the future agenda sheet for um topics that are going to be brought up at the meetings in September. And so we're looking at um September 9th a discussion around zoning fees. This is um you know we charge fees for zoning applications and um there has been a conversation about the because of the changes and how many we do administratively we don't meet those that we're not meeting those revenue targets. This is being brought forward through the development review board and through the housing committee for recommendation to council um for consideration on the 9th. um state fire rules have change laws have changed and so it affects the way that our ordinances around fire warden duties are written. So this is kind of just a policy wonky update um relative to those um country code road letter of interest. So this is the initial letter that spells out the broad um areas of a agreement that the city and DEW will enter into to go into a more detailed developer agreement. Um and the date has set it was set in your process for September 9th. Um a river hazard interim amendment. If I remember correctly, we got some feedback from the National Flood Insurance Policy, the board that figures out how they set our flood rates that recommended we um adopt a change that to improve our um rate structure. And so we're bringing that forward. And then the Central Vermont Solid Waste Management District is a district is a regional government district that you appoint a member to. That application process is currently open and that organization has requested to come and provide an update to you all. Um the 23rd are some second readings on things you're hearing on the 9th and then um some things we discussed today. Uh I am also um the tax stabilization policy update. This is something that we um have been working on from future or earlier conversations in the year on improving what the criteria would be and the process would be for entering into st tax stabilization agreements. Um and so that policy will be you know include criteria for your uh review and approval. >> That previous conversation was the one about the new school. Is that right? skull, but it it it >> opened up general questions. >> It opened up how to improve that policy and make it more of a tool for development as well as more of a contract because right now it's just it's been just like a letter of approval with no real commitment on the party's side to follow through um the transit center lease renewal discussion. So, I'm um meeting with uh now Tri Valley Transit to go through the current lease, to look at the grant um obligations that funded the construction of that building to see what is possible and not possible, and to bring back initial proposals for you all because I know this is of great interest. And you've requested that we weigh in on these things before a final lease needs to be approved in early December. And so, I wanted to get that conversation going. And then down street has requested to come and provide an update and they have a grant that they um are submitting. I don't know the details at now but are requesting city support for um and then finally on September 30th I would like to propose that you have three intervening weeks between it's one of those fiveweek months where you have an extra week between every other council meetings. And so I'm proposing on the 30th that we meet to have a check-in on the strategic plan and also conversation around the um local options tax allocation policy um which was something that you all have wanted to do. Um you know the tax has generated revenue in the first year of um approval and we have clear ideas on how much it will bring in what the projections are and staff will come with some proposals for you to consider. Um, and you've already heard from others some ways that they would like those monies allocated as well. And so those two topics would be uh a special meeting and um retreat for the board. >> Um, and that that would just be a a very narrow agenda that would allow sort of career discussion around those >> around those two things. Yep. And I would plan, you know, facilitated exercises around both of those. >> Um, great. I'd just like to say that I I see a pattern sort of emerging, a good pattern, which is, you know, around the as we identify where there's ambiguity or lack of clarity in our existing policies, whether it's it's talking about procurement policy that we're talking about today. It's about um tax stabilization policy. It's about our committee structure, etc. that as we're identifying those and you're continuing to sort of tighten up, tidy up, and bring those back. I think that is that's something that I'm very encouraged to see, right? Just greater clarity and greater tightness in our policies. Um, anything else before we go to council about it? Councilor, are there any comments or questions about what manager Curry has just sort of laid out as broad brush stroke for the coming month? I think it looks great. It gives us a good preview. I think that's helpful. Very. >> Yeah, >> I like the addition of the future agenda items on the agenda. >> If there's anything you all would like to propose to each other to talk about, I would invite you. >> I think this is becoming a full-time job. >> Um, all right. So, let's uh move to item 12, council reports. Uh just for the record, it is 9:29. Uh we'll start with you, Councelor Doyle. >> No report. >> Okay. Councelor Sheridan. >> Um yeah, a couple things. Um I did speak to Kurt, but I want to say it in case anybody's watching on the regular channel from DPW. Great job was done up in the Colonial Drive neighborhood. The four streets that were paved. It's It's I walk it every day. It's I can now walk and look around without having to walk where I watch where I step because when you're old, you have to watch where you step. You don't want to fall down. So, they did a great job. Um the other thing I want to bring up is um I got to play mayor for a couple hours. Not that I haven't done it before, but it was actually the first time I've actually ever cut a ribbon. And uh I'm wearing the shirt, so I hope the camera can be on me on this shirt. I said I actually asked them for this t-shirt when when um I went by to talk to them and I said, >> in case people can't say, will you just tell us what your shirt says? Yes, it says Cornerstone Caregiving. They're a new business that just opened in the town. They had the grand opening last Thursday. I went down to it and met the the person who runs it and what a sweet person, perfect for the job. I talked about my own caregiving experience. So, actually thought this was probably one I was the best one to speak at, having done it for 12 and a half years. And um they great group of people and I saw t-shirts and I said I love to wear t-shirts. I would love to wear one to advertise your business because I think you are so needed here in this city of mostly older people. And they just said to me, "What size?" And they got one for me. And um you know, I gave a nice speech for them. and and what's her name from the Montial Life? Katie was there and I was very happy to fill in for you. >> Right. I was sad to have had a scheduling conflict come at the last minute. I really grateful that not only that you were there to fill, but you were the perfect person to do that. >> In this case, I was. Sometimes I'm not. I'll be the first to admit, but in this case, I probably was, and I was happy to represent the city and welcome them to it. >> Great. Thank you. Uh, councelor Alfano, >> no report. >> No report. Councilors Castello, >> I don't have much of a report. I just, uh, it's it's been really interesting telling people or having people come up to me on the street and say, "Thank you for accepting a role on the city council or for applying for a role on city council." And probably 30 or 40 people have talked to me about it. And I've it's really encouraging and it it it's um people are paying attention to what the council does. People have faith in the future of the city and are excited about the city right now. Um people um talk to me about how much they love Montpillar, how they think it's one of the greatest places in the world to be and and I think that's inspiring. So, I I've been really like I've been surprised to be as moved as I've been by the encouragement of people. Um, I also noticed the kids walking downtown today and how ex how the first day of school is so symbolic and uplifting of like turning the next page and everybody's doing and they're posting pictures of their children and I think about things like the post office and I think about things like the count county uh county club >> development and I I think of what we're doing here today and what excites people outside that there's going to be children in homes in these places that we're going to have a growing population and a more successful city as a result of this work and it's difficult work and it's challenging and it's long and there's lots of impediments but we should have faith in each other that we're making progress. So to me that's been inspiring and just sharing it off the cuff. >> Thank you for that. Um, councelor Con. >> Um, I don't have any report, but I just like now it came to me. I'm in Florida uh to help my son uh move in his dorm. He's um a college student now. And I've been checking everything from city counselor perspective. I don't know what happened to me. So I suggested this when I was on the council for the first time. I think maybe we can talk about it again this idea. I know we have to do so many things. We are dealing so many things. Maybe we don't have time for this. But I think it will be great to have a sister city and just like connect uh with other cities uh municipal government nationally and internationally because there are so many things we can or learn or share the things that we do very well with rest of the uh nation and rest rest of the world. So, Kelly, I will send another email to you with this idea. Maybe in the future we can discuss this. It will be great for Montpelier. Thank you, everyone. >> Thank you, Councelor Kong. Councelor Brown. >> Yeah, thanks. I have a couple of things. I wanted to give you all a quick update on the Vermont League of Cities and Towns Policy Committee that I've been sitting on. This is a group that's looking at the the VCT's overall policy recommendations and um making proposed changes to them. So, I just wanted to give you a couple of highlights of things that have been talked about recently as possible um changes. One would be to hold municipalities harmless for the state education portion of the property tax when there are delinquencies or abatements. And I'm I'm not sure this is something that everybody really fully understands, but when someone comes to the board of abatement asking for their property taxes to be abated, if we decide yes, you don't your property taxes are you don't have to pay them. The city still has to pay the state education property tax portion of that. So it's not just a matter of this the city going without some money that we would have otherwise gotten as in taxes. It is that plus we also have to reach into our own pocket and pay the state. And so um the conversation at VTC VLCT is that that doesn't really seem very fair. So their recommendation is to try to change that. Um, and another there's and then there's several recommendations about expanding resources to deal with homelessness and human services and um to double the total number of shelter beds statewide and provide municipalities with resources to remove hazardous materials from encampments and public spaces for instance. So these are this won't be finalized until October, but these are just some of the changes that are being discussed. And then the the other thing I wanted to mention was that um Dave Bolini brought up several front porch forum posts about women feeling um unsafe when they are um when when they they have comments by men directed towards them that may not rise to the level of um police involvement but that are very very real threats uh anyway. And it's a really important point. And it's really really something for us to pay serious attention to. Um, and I want to make sure we're not scapegoating unhoused men as being the perpetrators of this. The the problem um of violence against women is a problem of men. It's not a problem of unhoused people. Um, I don't know if we are seeing more violence against women on the part of unhoused men in Montpielar. than housed men, but I bet we're not. Um I think the vast majority of violence committed by men against women is by men who have homes and have a place to sleep at night. Uh and so I just don't want us to forget about all of that in the conversation about homelessness and the public safety issues that we're facing. We have a really really big problem of um women not feeling safe from the men in their communities. It's a community problem. It's a cultural problem. It's not something the police can solve. The police have a role to play obviously, but um as folks have pointed out, there's if the if there's not a crime being committed and you know, an overt crime, there's not that much that the police can do. It's up to other parts of the community. It's up to us. It's up to I would say men um as well as women. So, I really appreciate um Dave Bellini's suggestion that we ask women what what suggestions that we have, but I would say also men should be talking about this, talking to each other, coming up with their own thoughts because that's where the um the majority of the perpetration of the violence is coming from. So, just would encourage us all to continue talking about this and try to solve it all together. >> Thank you for that, Carrie. Let's just sit for a moment before we move on. >> 9:39 city clerk's report. >> Yeah, I'm really sorry folks. I have a few things. Um, for one thing, speaking of the board of abatement and the board of civil authority, there are meetings of both next Wednesday. You all, I'm sure you've I'm sure you remember all the packets and things you received. Um, at here at 6:00 is the board of abatement. We have one case to hear and then it'll go straight into the board of civil authority where we'll get our report back from the inspection committee for uh the first uh appeal we have of a property valuation. There will also be a couple 30 second well not literally 30 second but but some of those quick and dirty uh uh electionbased um motions that will have to pass but those won't take more than a couple minutes. So lot going on there. I should mention um because this is especially meaningful to anyone who's still listening. Uh I've got a my personal election apocalypse is coming. The um career center has is deciding to uh have a special vote on a bond issue for a new building that will be concurrent with the November election. This is going to be a real problem for people because the uh the state ballots are going to be mailed out automatically. The career center ballots will not be. So that's going to create all kinds of confusion. Uh people probably people will be very unhappy. We'll be running two parallel elections under very different rules. And it's um it's going to be a trick, but it's going to be hard for people to understand what's going on, too. So, I'll be trying to get the information out as best I can and make it as as easy as possible, but we historically for these general elections in November have turnouts around 5,000 people. So, um it's a it's a big election and it's a big opportunity for a lot of confusion and it's going to be very challenging to pull off, I would add. Um >> question. >> Yeah. Um, you said that the the state ballots are mailed out automatically, but not the career center. They they're mailed out by you. >> No, they're just mailed out on request. Just like any other election, you have to call and make an absentee ballot request >> for the state ones. >> No, the state ones get mailed out automatically >> by whom? >> By the secretary of state's office. >> Okay. And then the career center ones will come in like a normal like an election any other time and will be here. And if people want them, they'll have to contact me to get it mailed to them. And that's something a lot of people just won't understand. >> And is there no way that the Secretary of State can support us by saying if someone asks for one of their ballots, include this? >> No. Part of it. >> Structurally, financially, that's not a possibility. uh to to mail uh to have a universal mail in it would come would come down to the career center but all the different towns within the career center body would have to agree and that's I think 15 towns and there's just no time for it to happen so yeah so we're stuck with that that's going to be a it's going to be a real trick um also I would just mention because I've already been asked a couple times what the implications are for the uh stays being lifted uh on the executive orders coming from the president um setting up a a a I don't want to go into too much detail about it, but it creates puts the postal service in the position of being a little bit of an arbiter of who gets sent votes and who doesn't who gets sent ballots and who doesn't in in a mail-in situation. We have uh universal mail-in situation. Uh so how that affects us is unclear yet. I will say that there are a couple laws on the books in Vermont. One that uh precludes us from giving copies uh or portions of the voter checklist to any government agency that might use it for something else. We also have a law on the book on the books that says we have to do this mail in election on in November. So, those two are going to be in clear conflict if the post office says you have to send it to us or we're not going to forward your ballots. So, I don't know how it's going to play out, but it's um it needs to play out quickly obviously because those mail-in ballots are going to be heading out into the public um sometime probably the week of the 20th of next month. So, >> and is it required that they be delivered by the US Postal Service? >> Oh, yeah. When you say forward the ballots, like they're not even going to send them to because they don't forward ballots, right? But they you mean send them initially? >> The post office is supposed to get a list of people who are who are qualified or approved to receive mail-in ballots. >> So that would mean, for example, in Vermont, them getting the entire voter checklist. >> Um, and that's problematic. >> And then they wouldn't send ballots to people. >> And then they wouldn't send ballots to people, right? theoretically. I mean, this is all speculation. Um, but that's the we're talking worst case scenarios, but I think we probably should. >> Okay. >> All right. Thank you. 9:45 city manager report. >> Yes. >> Uh, let's see. We talked about the retreat. Um, we talked about retreat day. I want to give an update update on the senior center and Jim can always jump in here because he's been down there a bunch, but I want to just thank um Evelyn and Tanya Chambers on my staff who've been down there quite a bit to try and fill in and figure out where there's gaps and that certain staff have played in the past and where we've needed to fill in with some, you know, keeping the building open and responding to inquiries and collecting payments for memberships. Um, I want to thank Arie McMullen because we had we the seniors launched their fall registration for classes on Monday and he helped finalize the programming for that. Um, you know, since we don't currently have a director there and that was great. That went that went well. There were some hiccups. We resolved them very quickly. We had a lot of volunteers who were helping um register people on site who were, you know, identifying when there were issues to get resolved. Um, and so there's a real, you know, all hands- on deck spirit happening down there. And, you know, things are, I think, working well. People are getting to their classes. They're getting their questions answered. They're getting payments are more securely transacted now than they've been in the past. All sorts of improvements, I think, in this what was kind of a rush vacuum at our um the abrupt resignation of our director. So, thanks to everybody for doing great with all that. Um I want to give I have an update on the fire union but as you all know the the union had triggered factf finding the factf finding process which is kind of an intermediary step in arbitration and so we are you know providing all the documentation we had provided different offers that um they didn't like for a variety of reasons or didn't make sense for a variety of reasons and so we're continuing to negotiate that and um hopefully find some resolution ution, but otherwise the factf finding stage is triggered which will, you know, get us to a place of a contract that everybody agrees to. Um, the police chief recruitment. So, we've been working with our firm. I know a number of you have talked with the recruiters. So, thank you. And if you haven't, please please reach out because your input is still very meaningful and I think it's really important for them to hear from every counselor. Um we will be la we're um we will be launching and opening the recruitment September 1st for 30 days. And so that'll really start to launch when we start to see candidates for that position. So that's an exciting milestone in that effort. Um and just shout out to the police department who are I think really really holding it together and coming together in challenging situations and have good camaraderie and um support to each other and to the community right now. Uh DPW, you know, they have a lot going on. I encourage everyone to look at the DPW news for updates. Uh Berlin Street will be finished and reopened by the end of this week. So that is great. Elm Street is done. So one major water project, one major sewer project for the summer done. As you heard, Jim gave some shoutouts on paving that we're doing. Um so all that's going well. I wanted to give a heads up that um the audit is going to be pushed back this year. um which I spoke with several of you about but maybe not all of you that you know with our we were down two positions in that um office and so the the auditors were preparing to come in September and we're not ready to provide them with all the information and then their next available date was not until January and so um you know ordinarily you all I think have been in the practice of seeing the audited financial statements parallel with budget that we think that will be able to happen but not until um end of February and so it's definitely um later than you're accustomed to and as I have expressed you know I look to prior audits to inform the development of this year's budget and so we still have the benefit of um you know information from the prior audits if there are any structural needs that you all need to consider there haven't been any major findings in past audits but that is what I would look to to see if we needed some additional resources to um get to better compliance or practices. Um and then I wanted to report so as you know I had let you all know that we had not been collecting outstanding delinquent payments and we um brought Bev Hill back on on a contract basis with savings we had from that position being open in um finance. And so she's she's been in a little bit part-time and has done an amazing job. So, we've gone down from over $700,000 to less than 350 right now, which is great. Um, and continuing to chip away on that. And then, as you know, we've also um have teed up the tax sale uh process for the beginning of the fourthcoming calendar year should that need to happen for properties that are over two years and $10,000 delinquent. Um, so we're chasing that down as we need to and um, you know, we Bev is going to be helping train the next person who's permanently on staff to take on that role. Um, which I think will be a good opportunity for handover. >> Kelly, can you let us know the range of how many properties are in that condition? >> Oh, I would have to pull. There's um, you know, >> 10 >> for water and sewer delinquencies. I mean it can be any it can be a quarter that you a past quarter that hasn't been paid. So sometime so they're not all anything that's passed those that could potentially face a tax sale the the latter category you were talking >> I don't know how many of those are right now but I'd be happy to report out that to you. Um some of the big big ones have come in and paid their debts. So that's great. Um, and I think that is it. Thank you. >> Great. Thank you. Um, it is currently 9:52. Mayor's report. Um, I went on a ride along with a police officer this past weekend. Um, and it was it was a terrific experience. I I learned a lot. I have a lot of gratitude for our police officers. Um I do think that the culture that we have internally at our police department is is is terrific. It's very community focused. It's very caring and uh I think that internally they're feeling a kind of optimism for what's ahead of us and uh that gives me great hope and I feel a terrific optimism that however the chief search winds up going that uh we we're going to have a a ter we're going to continue to have a terrific force that gets behind whoever that person is. Um, I also just want to reiterate my my gratitude today for our educators and administrators and maintenance folks and the school board, parents, teachers, everybody here. And I want to reiterate gratitude for all of you who are serving and everyone who is serving on all of our committees. Um, I also want to uh just say a word of gratitude for uh the constitution that we have, the constitutional protections and freedom of speech that we have as Americans. I think that is very important. And it is also important for us to realize that just because someone says something is true doesn't make it true. We are here I'm here. I speak for myself and I think I speak for the whole council that we are uh amateurs serving in this role doing the best that we can. We're not professional politicians. Um we do have competent staff who are all doing their very best under difficult uh situation. And just because it is one person's right to hurl accusations of falsehood and lies um and deliberate corruption does not make it true. Um and finally about the the the front porch forum stories that we've heard several bits about tonight. I think it is um the city, the council, the staff, we are all very open to hearing from the public on their very real concerns. If me too taught me anything, it is that we should believe uh believe people when they say that they are unsafe. At the same time, I don't think that front porch forum is the best avenue for the city to conduct any kind of official communications. If folks have real concerns, they should call dispatch. They should call contact the city manager's office or contact council and they will be heard and they will be listened to. Um, and just to wrap that up, as real as any one person's story may be, the plural of anecdote is not data. And so we very often hear that this story happened to me and another person will echo something similar happened to me and then we collectively want to interpret that as the condition or the data and I would just caution all of us to um one believe the stories that we hear from people and believe that everyone's perception is their reality but also that um our individual experiences are not always indicative of the larger truth. Uh so I know that sounds like a big sermon uh slashermon that's code speak for end of sermon. It is currently 9:56. This meeting of Montilia City Council is adjourned.