"Money Is EVIL!" Cliffe & Stuart Knechtle Debate The Existence of God & The Afterlife

the biggest questions of Life are where do we come from what is our purpose and where are we going the word god covers an enormous range of different ideas you don't just logically come to Faith you can't logically prove God you can't logically prove Christ how do you know you're right and how do you have such conviction well we don't know we're right that's why it's faith what happens when you die and after you die because this guy put his faith in Christ we're going to see them again in heaven but all I got to do Graham and Jack is look up and consider the vastness of the cosmos if there is a supernatural being who created the cosmos it's not stupid to believe there's life after [Music] death when is the last time you both seriously doubted your faith steuart and Cliff thank you so much for coming on the iced coffee hour thank you for having us guys yes thank you great thank you for bringing us into your beautiful home out here too this is this is so crazy providing us with coffee and cookies you guys have so nice very very generous so thank you for that you guys run a non-denominational Christian Ministry out here in Connecticut you guys have consistently gone viral from your college tours from a bunch of podcast interviews you guys have done with people like Patrick B David Alex o'conor impulsive George jenko and maton Evan and you guys also have a YouTube channel called give me an answer which I really enjoy with the college tours I think it uh you guys do a great job appreciate you jack so which debate has been the most intense out of everything you guys have done so far I would go all the way back to our very first debate you remember that one up at the White House we had a debate with this youth pastor who lost his faith and I think he did a lot of strawmanning of the faith y you're really good at I think his intensity is really good in cases like that where guys claim oh I was fully a believer in every kind of way and then just lost it because of some type of inconsistency in the Bible that I saw and you're good I think Shining Light on that with your intensity and then all of a sudden that kind of uncovers potentially an emotional bias why did he lose his faith I think there's one major reason to lose your faith and that is I'm offended by God because God tells me what to do and I don't want anybody telling me what to do so I think there's an innate uh human bias I think I have it against God because I don't want people telling me how to do I what to do I naturally resist Authority I don't want to be told and I think that that's a very good reason why a lot of human beings say no to God and what was your argument against that to him in that case and what made that so strong between you two the argument that the Bible's unreliable is I find very flimsy and if a person can't grasp that I would just ask them to asks the question what are you living for and what's the evidence of what you are living for is the truth and the options to answering that question other than Christ or God are so flimsy they are so ill supported by evidence that to act like the real reason I can't believe in God is because a lack of evidence is a smoke screen what about people that don't even that aren't even curious about that they don't even ask that question What Am I Living For what's the purpose of all of this some people this sounds a little bit offensive to say but maybe are like jellyfish in the tides they just enjoy and exist through life rather than wondering things like that unfortunately Jack I think you're absolutely right and that's why it's amazing to watch young men and young women when they're holding their first baby all of a sudden start asking those questions because when you're holding a new life and you begin to ask oh my goodness why is human life valuable oh my goodness is there a purpose to life oh my goodness what am I going to teach this child ethically what's right what's wrong and oh my goodness they are going to be going to Grandpa and Grandma's funerals fairly soon so we're going to have to ask is there life after death or not all of a sudden you begin to Grapple with those issues but you're absolutely right jack for many of us the the question is not those issues which are deep hard issues but rather the issues are where's the next party how can I stimulate my nerve endings better how can I get ahead in my career and it's sort of like right here that's the only thing I think about I'm excited for this podcast I told a lot of my Christian friends that were doing this and they obviously were super excited they're like oh my gosh I think these guys represent the text extremely well they they have the right interpretation of it so they were very excited for our background just so the viewer can get an idea I was raised completely agnostic my mom was Jewish askanazi Jew my dad was Christian I was raised nothing but I'm totally open to things I'm just heavily skeptical you guys both say that the logical answer is Christianity you say the logic would lead to Christianity which I find very interesting and we're going to get into that this episode Graham your background of people for people to understand where you're coming from yeah I really was just raised with with Christmas that was about it my mom was raised Jewish didn't really follow that uh as for me I mean that that's basically it in term but I'm completely open I really don't have an agenda either way um if I also didn't introduce you guys perfectly well you guys are welcome to introduce yourselves to fill in any yes uh I it's very clear you did not introduce me correctly okay he's not my brother I am steuart's father call you not my husband's not my brother dad I claim to famous I'm his dad the brother I get to be his dad no you didn't you didn't he ages really well Nivea for me morning I'm justess all the time with my kids did I actually call you Brothers no you didn't no you didn't oh go did I miss that too I was like I was checking notes here maybe I was going to be horribly embarrassed okay no did I did I miss anything not a thing y I'm just a very proud father that's all okay pastors he's a senior pastor I'm assistant pastor for those that are unfamiliar with you guys why should they listen to you in particular because if you listen closely to us we are consistently challenging people to read the gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John for themselves do not take it from us you'd be a fool to put your faith in Christ CU I believe in Jesus or CU Stuart does but when you go to the source documents the historical eyewitness reports about how Jesus lived taught died and rose from the dead there you have an opportunity to ascertain Jesus a fool or Jesus the truth okay so I would say just to start this off my main skepticism Comes Around Heaven and Hell what does the afterlife mean to you what happens when you die and after you die we believe that once you die you have kept your relational existence and opportunity to keep relationships going forward you're not going to be some type of spiritual just kind of aloof being that's ethereal strumming a harp on a cloud oftentimes other religions say that's exactly what you are or you or somehow you just get caught up in an all soul type of existence and you lose your individuality we believe that you keep your individuality and Jesus actually died physically with a body and Rose physically so we're going to have physical lasting existence that's why Steve Jobs when he said finally on his death bed he finally started to really grapple with these questions that you were talking about cuz he didn't really grapple with them much during his life he kind of just weighed off and said you know purpose is to make money here and to create well eventually when he was on his deathbed he said hold on here all my experience all my relational experience as well as my wealth and what I've done with my businesses I don't think this is just going to go away with a click of a mouse I think there's got to be something more and he would call that heaven so it's a relational existence where we'll be able to recognize each other we accept Christ versus something that is either you just fall through a trapo Into Darkness or you just get caught up in an all Soul or something like it and then what about hell like how how is Hell depicted because that for me is a very interesting one it sounds illogical at least not intuitive that someone can exist not well for a life that's maybe 20 30 40 50 years long um and sin and not ask for forgiveness and then for eternity be banished to hell how what what is Hell depicted like what is the the general understanding well sin doesn't send you to hell it's what you do with Jesus Christ what do you do with God are you gonna live for yourself so David Foster Wallace you guys probably know him he wrote Infinite Jest was probably going to be the greatest writer of our era atheist he said everybody worships something if it's something that is ultimately infinite it can buoy you in a way where you can make it through suffering but if it's something that is like looks Talent money that's all going to fade away and eventually it'll eat you alive and so he pointed to a type of heaven and hell he ultimately didn't believe but he said it makes a lot of sense and so for us we say all these kids on college campus back to your your question a second ago these kids on college campuses believe in a heaven and hell typically and there's a growing belief in Hell specifically because they want justice justice is intimately connected with hell infinitely because if you don't have hell there's no judgment day and endless amounts of people are going to be ripped off and there's no justice from a moral objective perspective either if there is no God so what's the primary judgment then basically like you said if you believed in Christ yeah if you decide I'm GNA give up myself to gain myself if I'm going to live for something outside of myself and say I'm going to humble myself in order to say God I want to live for you rather than me now you're moving in that direction versus living for something else I agree that probably a moral statement to live for something more than just yourself so I agree with that but you could also live for your children you could live for the community other things that sure the text would support but technically if you're also morally not living for yourself you're doing something just and therefore you probably you know should get into the the gates right well again it's it's what do you do with Jesus Christ because if you live for children or if you live for Community I mean how if one of my kids dies and I'm living for them and I turn them into God I'm going to have an existential breakdown Jordan Peterson talks about that you guys had him on your show he flat out said that if I'm living for a parent or a kid I will have an emotional existential total breakdown and I will be depressed significantly the rest of my life if I turn them into a god rather than something that is infinite and personal yeah endless amounts of people say this Victor Franco man search for meaning he said people were literally shriveling up and dying or they becoming tremendously selfish if they did not believe in a god outside of the prisoner of war camps so if you live for something that's finite it's going to destroy you eventually why do they need to live for Jesus in particular not maybe another God for like any other religion out there would they go to hell right and so the question becomes who are we to judge Hearts we are not universalists in saying that any religion doesn't matter what you are you're going to heaven if you follow it sincerely no it's not about how sincere your belief is it's about the object of your faith and is there evidence for the reliability of that object or not is it just oh no I'm going to be sincere this is my religion that I grew up in and that's what I'm going to follow versus the evidence for no every single person like he just said every single person is going to ask those big questions at some point Leo Tolstoy when he was at the very Apex of his writing career everybody knew him in the world had an existential breakdown because he said wow I'm going to die one day and all these books that I'm writing all this money that I'm acing doesn't really matter whatsoever so he has his breakdown so so the question becomes back to my dad's Original Point who or what is more reliable than Jesus Christ and who you're living for so you have to do your research but we don't believe that if you don't have just the knowledge God's going to send you to hell so it's not just a knowledge thing it's how do you live out your life as well well is am I living in such a way where I am humbling myself and getting outside of myself or am I living for something like money or something related to money the logic of Heaven hell part of it is if there is no God if there is no day of judgment if there is no heaven and no hell you you've got to think okay then what is there and I think it's rather obvious but you know what before we go into that I got a surprise for you got a gift and uh I've never got a pair of these in my entire life so let's open it up and let me show you all right so you're going to be the first to be able to see these oh wow they make these so nice look at this that is so cool this pair of cowboy boots is from our sponsor to kovas they craft quality western boots for everybody from generational ranchers and lifelong Cowboys to firsttime boot buyers like myself the brand was born in Texas in 2015 and each one of these handcrafted boots is made with over 200 steps involved in the process Esquire loves them they say there's a reason we keep coming back to toova and I love them because of the craftsmanship the quality the comfort and also just how cool they look plus with ova's best in the west 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and that'll be hell and then the second point is hell is a result of me choosing to live my life separate from God it's not a result of ignorance it's a result of me choosing to say God I have a better way I want to live separate from correct so you can't in theory I know you guys have addressed this before but you can't be born into a culture that doesn't have any like Christian values or you couldn't be a person that you know you're born and then one year later you fall sick and you die or something like that those people did not make the active decision to stay away very good from the church so they can still go into to Heaven that's biblical too when David messes up has the adulterous affair with baath Sheba and obviously a baby is born out of tremendous sin it's it's adultery and there was murder because he sent Mariah to the front lines and Mariah was killed he specifically says I will go to that baby that baby will not come to me so in my circumstance I know you guys don't know because you're not guarding the gates but if I don't necessarily reject Christ which I don't and but if I just live my life as what I like to think of as a pretty good man and I do have principles that align with the values of Christianity and I try to help people and contribute to my community and be a good father eventually and a good husband then would that be sufficient no it won't be sufficient cuz I'm like you jack you and I are two great guys we haven't murdered anybody we've never stolen a bunch of money out of a bank or from a person's wallet we're really decent guys but unfortunately for us the day the standard for the on the day of judgment is not going to be good American citizen it's going to be God's holiness his moral perfection and although I have never stolen money I've been greedy although I've never murdered I have hated so I'm not this wonderful guy that I wish you both from Las Vegas would believe that I am all right I am a dirty rotten sinner now religion says if you follow the rules you'll make it to heaven and Jesus Christ says no you'll never make it because of you following the rules because although you follow many of the rules and you live a good life and you're conscious tells you you live a good life and your rational mind tells you you live a good life you also experience guilt and guilt is my alarm system God says of waking you up to the fact that you haven't always done good and that's where the Cross of Christ comes in he bleeds and dies on a cross to forgive us for our wrongdoing to reconcile us to God but even right now I'm not like I said rejecting Christianity I'm just existing and not like making that active decision isn't there some sort of distinction between the two of like someone Pres me with it and I'm completely no never talk to me about it ever or they they give me the facts and maybe it's enough evidence to support that it's true but I still reject the facts and the evidence wouldn't that be more rejecting Christianity than simply existing through life and you know as we discussed beforeand sure I'm a sinner but there is you know sinning comes in different uh it comes on a spectrum yes it does come on a spectrum but Jack if I say you know hello Jack and then I turn my back to you and I ignore you that's a form of rejection and so if I sort of give tcid acknowledgement to the existence of God but don't take him seriously that's a form of tacit rejection I'm essentially rejecting it no if you treat me with kindness then it's incumbent upon me to respond to your kindness and to trust you and to love you and build a friendship build a relationship with you and when you're confronted by Jesus Christ who gives his life for you I don't think there are a lot of people who have given their lives for me when he gives his life for me on a cross then all of a sudden it's incumbent upon me to respond to him well couldn't you also argue that people give their lives when they go and they volunteer for the military or they join or they fight for our freedom that they also give their lives for us they great Point Graham they sure do in fact just this past week I was with a a guy who's a sniper in the armed forces and what he has put himself through and what he is opening himself up to is incredible he fought in Afghanistan he fought in Iraq and believe me I thanked him for his service to our country but uh it goes beyond that it goes down to goes to God do you really care for me do you really want me to spend eternity with you in heaven whoa if you do I've got to respond to you and trust in you and ultimately gaham you and I are going to trust someone or something if I don't trust God ultimately I will trust myself ultimately for instance when I read the Bible and I say well I don't like that part of the Bible and I don't accept that what I'm saying is my judgment my impulses my feelings are more important I trust them more than I trust what God has said supposedly in this book The Bible in other words if I don't worship God probably as an American I'm going to worship an idealized version of myself how do you know you're right and how do you have such conviction where does that stem from well we don't know we're right that's why it's faith but everybody lives by faith and belief sure even the most Ardent scientists live by many rules of faith and belief I mean they need constants going into their experiments right they're going to believe in those constants before they start their experiments well that's Faith right there so we we don't have certainty or proof there's next to nothing in this life that you can truly prove that's why we go by the evidence that's why the militant atheist who says oh faith is just you know begins where reason leaves off is completely wrong there's a faith statement within that that they're making because they can't prove what they're saying there so you can't prove if there is a God and you can't prove if there is no God but we live by the conviction of how we live how we think what are relationships why is loving at the center of our existence if we've just evolved red and tooth and Claw that doesn't make any sense there's a spiritual existence as a mental health therapist I talk with people endlessly even if they're atheist about a spiritual realm everybody believes in that now to some extent so we have convictions but we don't have proof but it's back to Jack I find Jack very interesting when he talked about how he's a good guy well how do you know you're a good guy people Define that differently in every kind of way but then I love that you said I live by Christian principles so you're kind of a cultural Christian and so you're well on your way even though you're questioning is Jesus the way the truth and the life so we don't live by certainty but how do you act why do we live by these Christian principles all of us seemingly this might sound stupid but in terms of proof what about existence of dinosaurs and showing dinosaur bones and things like this that doesn't contradict the Bible at all the Bible never answers the question are there dinosaurs the Bible never answers the question is North America in real geography the Bible never answers the question is there Australia so you can't argue from Silence when a text is silent you have to respond The Silence of the text and there's no talking about dinosaurs in the Bible so therefore it would be dishonest for me to say oh the Bible does say there are dinosaurs or for somebody else to say the Bible contradicts science scientific evidence that there is dinosaurs because the Bible does nothing of the sort now this is you know once again a common question but I feel like it needs to be addressed because I still have never heard like a fully satisfactory answer to it but if you exist your entire life rejecting and then on the deathbed or for some short period of time you ask for forgiveness is that enough to do it why or why not it's definitely enough to do it which is a clear symbol of how much God loves you it's a clear sign that God really wants you to spend eternity with him in heaven and if you genuinely repent on your deathbed as the thief who was nailed on the to the cross on the side of Christ did he turns to Jesus and says remember me when you come into your kingdom and Jesus does not say well get down off the cross and say 12 hell marries and work in a soup kitchen instead he says I tell you the truth today you'll be with me in Paradise you see that's Grace cus Lewis was walking through the faculty Lounge at Oxford and the faculty was having a debate what's the difference between Christianity and every other major world religion and CS all easy Grace every major world religion says there's no such thing as a free lunch earn it you pile up the good deeds and if you pile them up high enough God will smile on you and you'll be in nervon of heaven and Jesus says no Jesus says Heaven is a gift that God gives you that you don't earn you don't deserve it's a gift I offer you through Grace so if we're born Sinners and we have a natural disposition towards sinning and evil then wouldn't it make sense then if that is the the evidencebased conclusion to live a life of sin because you and I can end up in exactly the same place how does that justify putting your life towards Faith rather than these other things that you know maybe biologically speaking are more desirable oh but Jack as Stuart alluded to beautifully you're not this wanly evil guy you're a really nice guy based on the evidence that we've seen so far you can con did that but I don't think you will Jack okay so you're a really nice guy all right why is that because you're created in the image of God you're not just a dirty rotten Center you're a human being created image of God you have a conscience you have a rational mind you have this innate ability to love to really care I think you probably have a great friendship with Grant all right well that's part of what it means to be created in image of God but you also have a Readiness to sin factors what Dallas Willard the USC philosophy Professor called it you also have a tendency to sin as I do we're all mixed up kids I mean Jack when I was a little kid 50 yards out that door in a sandbox I picked up a metal truck and dropped it on the head of a buddy of mine when I was five and he was five well I'd never seen that behavior modeled but he offended me so I picked up the truck and dropped it on him I'm a dirty rotten sinner but didn't do that consistently I also shared and was generous so we're all mixed up kids I think and that's one of the reasons I Believe In Christ because that's his analysis of the human dilemma are there certain people though that are born evil per se or is everyone born a sinner in the image of God and they have like sure the natural disposition towards sinning but they can they naturally will as they grow up and are impressed upon will develop some sort of um ambition and and desire for good Freud talked about this clearly as a a secular Jew didn't believe in God but he said there was an id ego super ego and so you were born good in some ways and born with this ID which was tremendously sinful and evil in another way see we were just talking about New York City earlier look at Nazi Germany how many thousands upon thousands just fell prey to what Hitler was doing and they thought you know what okay Aryan race kind of makes sense we're living in fear anyway and the nationalism is strong and they just fell prey to yeah let's Wipe Out the Jewish race how many thousands and they were at the top of the intelligen of many of them in the world so we're talking about New York City do you know how many people just stood by in the subway when that woman was burnt to death by that illegal immigrant six they were just watching right there I mean within 10 yards doing nothing or for example 1964 geneves the young woman who was to death you know that man was her to right there in New York City upper east side and all of a sudden all the lights came on in different buildings he runs away because he thinks the cops are going to show up all 38 Witnesses in those buildings did not a thing they didn't come down they didn't make any calls and what did that what happened that man comes back 10 minutes later and just finishes her off so if you don't think that we have evil in our hearts that we're not dirty rotten Sinners I don't know what that is I don't have a name for it why do you think so many people stand and watch instead of help because we're dirty rotten Sinners we have that side we're creating the image of God we have the ability and potential to do great good we we almost worship each other in a way because you're you have something in you that I really like but at the same time I have this Readiness to sin Factor where I can do great evil and I think that ushers in a realm that we call personal Supernatural evil and if there is no God that's not that that isn't a category that isn't real we don't have a name for evil evil is innately a religious term the person that you brought up geneves you said geneves I think that's yeah yeah so her life was cut short maybe she didn't have the opportunity like a lot of people have if they exist for long enough to be introduced to something like that or maybe she was introduced but she was young and she was naive and so she rejected it her life was cut short she had less opportunity to be able to to get through the golden gates what does something like that mean does God know cuz he's the all knowing that if she were to continue on her life then she would have continually rejected it for the rest of it Jack you're absolutely right God is all knowing that's why I'm real grateful that on the day of judgment no one's going to be able to trick God fool God pull the wool over God's eyes no God's all knowing god is just and he will judge justly that is why I have hope for the future because I know that ultimately Justice will win ultimately evil will lose but remember no day of judgment No Heaven no hell the good Good Die Young evil wins often what about cats cuz Graham has a cat named Ramsey and he really loves and dog Bailey and dog Bailey and Gigi as well don't forget GG um he really loves his pets something as simple as that are they gonna be there well the lion will lay down with the Sheep we get pretty clearly and if if that's biblical I think that's more than just metaphorical I think animals yes they're not creating the image of God but say like we are so it's a little disturbing to me that 35% of Americans now say that they would save their animals life before a stranger strangers life they said that 35% when did that come out it's growing it came out a few years ago four five years ago do you think it's a cultural shift is it like a individualism you know growing in our society and people caring for themselves it's secularism secularism even though even though belief in God is growing at the same time secularism is growing in different pockets of the nation and so when you lose the image of God if I don't think you're an eternal person who's worth really loving why don't I choose my cat especially if I think you're kind of in my way and especially if I think like oh I don't really know you so why would I have an attachment this would be an interesting thought experiment if you had two buttons in front of you one saves your pet the other saves a random person that you don't know in the planet would you do y I think that would change it a lot that yeah if if you don't know the person at all and they're so far removed from you that you'll never see them you're never hear from them but your pet is right there and you could visually see your pet staring at you and Bible would say morally speaking you should save the the human because a human's life is more valuable than a than an anim animals although I might step on a cockroach I better not step on you jack Al I might step on an ant yeah gr I better not step on you cuz you are created in the image of God in the way the Cockroach and the Ant are not now that does not mean that the Cockroach and the Ant are insignificant but it does mean that you are a creation of God In His Image which means you have a value and a dignity that the Cockroach and the amp do not have do some people have more value than others because if you could rank people higher than dogs higher than cats and go down the Spectrum every human is technically the same even though some people might have a much greater impact on society than others but not if there is no God because if there is no God we're the result of evolution and some of us are evolved higher than others of us and that's why you had Eugenics back at the time of World War II because certain Aryan races were Superior to other races because of evolution and logically that makes sense but the Bible insists no you're not just an evolutionary product you're a human being created in the image of God with innate intrinsic value and dignity because you're not simply a highly evolved ape you're a human being created in the image of God when we're debating Hindus on college campuses and Hinduism is growing actually on college campus cuses I was frequently pushing them on the cast system because it comes back to your question I was with I went to the Hindu temple down the street I was definitely the only Caucasian guy there but it was quite it was quite an experience and then I went to a Hindu home and I was sitting with two women and I said hold on don't you have more value than you because you're higher up in the cast system and they started giggling awkwardly they said well we're we're kind of doing away with that in Hinduism but we're trying to figure it out cuz technically yes I have more value than you can you explain the cast system yeah I'm not familiar with that so the cast system is basically you're born into a certain level of of value or not culturally and so it's a cultural issue that they have set up so it's not necessarily a type of works it's not like you work better and do more things and all of a sudden you're higher no you're actually born into it out is it based on your family or gender or what's it okay right reincarnation yeah reincarnation your past karma in terms of Heaven do you have a certain image in your mind of what that would look like does it differ between you two now before we go into that even though you might think it's a bit overhyped AI is suddenly everywhere from self-driving cars molecular medicine to even business efficiency if it hasn't hit your industry yet it's coming fast but the problem is AI needs a ton of speed and processing power so how do you compete without cost spiraling out of control well that's why it's time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud Oracle Cloud infrastructure or our sponsor oci for those unaware oci is a blazing 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some sort of physical body MH you know like the the Classic Hollywood illustration is like clouds everywhere you know big golden gates and and that's it like you know you reunite with your dead great grandpa or something like that yeah when Jesus said in my father's house there are many rooms and I'm going there to prepare a place for you that could be metaphorical or it could be hey there literally are homes up there and this place down here is going to look like a trash can compared to what heaven is really going to look like but no the Bible is pretty silent on what specifically it will look like which I like I mean if it's if it's God and and God is creating an eternity that is perfect for us I I would guess the Bible would be pretty silent on that because we wouldn't be able to logically grasp it so this Jack I do have an image of Heaven in my head and it's wrong okay okay because the Bible doesn't give us a photograph of heaven but for the past 2,000 years followers of Christ have tried to draw that picture obviously Dante tried to do it very clearly in The Divine Comedy and other places but no the Bible does not give us a photograph of Heaven and therefore I have to have the humility to say I really don't know but what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 2:9 is Eye Has Not Seen ear is not heard mind is not conceived what God has prepared for those who love him we do know that we'll have Resurrection bodies Heaven is not going to be Spirits floating around for eternity you will be you I will be me we will be able to continue to build a friendship a relationship we do we do know there will be no more evil or suffering no more fighting no more war no more disease no more death it'll be Eternal Joy but there's no photograph and I have a problem with people who like to uh draw the photograph and then say it's a Christian understanding no there's no photograph that Jesus or the Bible gives us don't you guys believe that there's a soul and a self that will continue on forever I do there's got to be right yeah it it sounds like there should because I first of all hate the idea that like you know don't exist uh but then again someone said it's basically like what do you remember before being born and I'm like okay well I guess that kind of makes sense and alleviates my fear but I don't know I do find it interesting I've been so obsessed with like the past life experiences and hearing some of these stories about a kid who comes up and speaks naturally a language that did not exist for the last 5,000 years isn't taught and this child speaks it fluidly or other stories where you hear where they could recollect a specific memory of a point in time go back to that and say I remember this being like 3 or four years old what are your thoughts on those sort of experiences be skeptical be very very skeptical because a lot of them have shown to be totally fraudulent but second point would be yeah it maybe is an indicator a very physical more tangible type of indicator that indeed there is an existence after this life but you've got to be very very careful CU I mean I had just heard about a movie that was made of a little boy who came who had a near-death experience and came back and explained a lot of things and uh a movie was made about it and then old by golles turned out to be a fraud so you got to be very very skeptical you got to demand evidence of reliability before you trust otherwise you'll have your lunch eating for you but there's over 300 peer-reviewed articles at Duke University of near-death experiences that have occurred that's Duke University what are the commonalities that you found from those a warm feeling okay floating outside your body and clear clear recollection of things that you saw when you were unconscious and you're able to read back exactly what was seen for example on a medical report of somebody down the hallway and so the or a boy falling out 12 feet out of a tree was another one who he was able to rec and tell his mom exactly what occurred later on and he was fully unconscious so for me you know I was telling somebody who you guys know pretty well well he's pretty big right now he was pushing me on hey Stuart you keep claiming that all these Muslims are becoming Christians over in the Middle East and Africa that's ridiculous and I said well hold on a second endless amounts of testimony right now thousands upon thousands and I have a friend who once I graduated grad school he specifically went over there to test this out and he said hey look man this is absolutely going on it's amazing how many of these Muslims who are strong in their faith are giving up land property I mean at the risk of their own lives because they meet Christ in a dream so these are all testimony I I think you're probably more skeptical than I am about them I used to be very skeptical but I'm starting to buy into 400 million personal testimonies in India alone talking about supernatural experiences I mean do atheists go and question these people the average atheist does not and they just say they're all hallucinating or something like that I'm sorry there's too many testimonies for me to believe that they're just hallucinating so this is from the text but why did God decide to test Humanity again after Jesus's Thousand-Year reign with Satan that's a very specific interpretation of some rather vague passages in a highly apocalyptic book called The Book of Revelation this Thousand-Year Millennium all right so I don't think that I would personally follow that line of thinking that you've just articulated I think uh the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus is going to come again one day he's going to return a second time but exactly the events surrounding that when that's going to happen I think we have to be very very careful because in Matthew 24 Jesus says no one knows the day or hour of my return not the angels in Heaven nor the Sun but only the father as it was in the days of Noah so it'll be at the coming of the son of man for in the days before the flood people were eating and drinking marrying and giving in marriage up till the time Noah entered the Ark and the flood came and swept them all away that is how it will be at the coming of the son of man two men will be in the field one will be taken the other left two women will be grinding with a hand Mill one will be taken the other left therefore keep watch because you do not know the day or hour of my return do you believe certain biblical stories like Noah's Arc occurred exactly as it was written in the Bible yes I think they did occur exactly as was written in the Bible but the caveat there is make sure that you interpret fairly and where would you say your inter interpretations of the Bible differ I don't know where do our interpretations of the Bible differ check me if I'm almost being heretical here right now I would be open to the potential of metaphor as well as mixing with Egyptian creation stories up to Genesis chapter 11 and all of a sudden you get Abraham we get all different forms of archaeological evidence with what Abraham did and how the Israelites traveled and the supernatural that occurred so am I open to the fact that the talking snake may not be actually a snake yes I'm totally open to that so somebody who pushes me really hard on well now you're not taking the Bible seriously you don't believe for example that the Earth is just 6,000 years old come on you didn't count up the years Stuart no I I don't I think the Bible silent on how old the Earth is I don't think it's a scientific textbook so I I don't think I'm blowing the Bible to Pieces when I say potentially after Genesis 11 that's when the actual literal historical events occurred am I wrong on that Jesus says I'm the vine is he claiming to be plant life Jesus says I'm the door is he claiming to be two pieces of plywood slapped together again Jesus says if your right hand causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away is he calling for self-mutilation no no no no he's not claiming to be plant life when he says I'm the vine he's using metaphor to communicate a truth I am the source of life you better be connected to me as a branch is connected to the Vine I am the door you enter Heaven you enter real life through me not claiming to be a piece of plywood on hinges yes he calls us to cut off our right hand if our right hand causes it to send which does not mean literally cut it off it means if I want to pick up a gun and blow you away I better act like I don't have a hand so I can't pick up the gun and I better work at knocking guns out of the hands of people who want to murder with a gun and the same way I want to try and knock Satan out of people's hearts but it doesn't mean I'm going to go up and knock Graham in the head no when I'm I'm speaking metaphorically I'm going to pray that you do trust in Christ that you come to believe in God but I'm not going to hit you on the side of the head why is it so open to different interpretation for 2,000 years the historic Christian church has followed an orthodox Faith so when you talk about 36% of the world being Christian well pure research that would be defined as who Jesus was did he live die teach and live out that teaching and then actually rose from the dead that's who a Christian truly was back then and is today so yes it's at times frustrating I think for even for us certain interpretations for example of predestination and Free Will why do so many Christians just chew each other up over those issues can't it just be clear God so yes that's frustrating but for 2,000 years I mean you go right back to the early monks and what they passed on or the church fathers what they passed on or the eyewitnesses to Jesus himself what they passed on it's all been consistent all the way down it's been crystal clear but the minors have been difficult and debated over but that's why St Augustine himself the biggest church father who ever existed said in the essentials Unity but in the non-essentials grace and bear with each other as you figure these things out versus the zwingle and the others who said oh you don't believe in infant baptism you believe in Believers baptism okay well come here we're going to drown you to death and that happened often times so it shows how evil things can get when you say I have the truth on this minor issue and if you don't buy into it then I'm G to kill you for it but I think you've you've asked a great question about communication all right when he was a little boy his room was a disaster area it's calling you out okay w why do I why do I use that word disaster area because I want to communicate vividly to you instead of me saying okay when he was a little boy the truck was over there it should have been over here the bed should have been made this way instead of just thrown together instead I tell you his room is a disaster area and in a way that is an ability I have to communicate more clearly and you do the same thing we use hyperbole we use metaphor simile we paint word pictures and we use language that if you were to take it literally it would be ridiculous his room is not literally a disaster area but we use that kind of language to impress upon a person an image to help them understand the main point and I can promise you if you go out and start developing a relationship with a young lady that turns romantic I think if you keep everything black and white everything mathema radical that relationship's not going to go too far to communicate love to communicate trust is a challenge when it comes to how you communicate that and what type of images do you give it to a person for them to mull over you talk a lot about how logic will determine that Christianity is the answer what what verse what what thing from text what piece of evidence or advice or statement have you both made that you found to be the most effective at converting people when Jesus is coming to heal gyrus daughter gyus doesn't know what to do with Jesus he's heard that he's a miracle worker and healer but Jesus talks about hey believe that this will happen and gyrus says I do believe but help my unbelief so for me it's I want to come check this Jesus out see everyone in the Bible even doubting Thomas or for example Philip and Nathaniel in John chapter 1 you know Philip doesn't bash Nathaniel over the head neither does Jesus Philip says to Nathaniel come and see Jesus says come and see come and check me out don't just believe in me with Blind Faith but that gyrus passage has always helped me because I've been a doubter I've been a doubting Thomas my whole life probably more so than my brothers and my parents and yet that passage alone is Jesus is saying hey doubt all you want but please come and check me out to keep checking me out but check out the Alternatives too maybe I've miscommunicated this would be a classic example of this whole tricky issue of communication no you don't just logically come to Christ come to Faith all right you can't logically prove God you can't logically prove Christ all right but logic is involved thinking is involved what I mean is this Jack Jack this pink elephant right here on my right hand this pink elephant has brought my life meaning and purpose and joy and hope I really hope you'll believe in this pink elephant I hope you'll say really Cliff what on Earth is the evidence that the Pink Elephant is really here and if I say to you jack I'll pay you $1 million if you believe in this pink elephant although because you want the million dollars you might say Okay Cliff I believe there's a pink elephant you know that your mind will not allow you to believe in the pink elephant here because there is not a shred of evidence that the Pink Elephant is really here so when I when we say that logic is important what we mean is your mind will not allow you to believe something that is not supported by evidence that is contradictory to the evidence your mind won't let you do that I don't care how much money I offer you know very well that when you walk out of here you're saying Cliff was nutso there's no pink elephant on his right hand so reason is important I mean think about it where does reason come from if there is no God reason comes from non reason why would you trust the thoughts of a monkey well I probably wouldn't Cliff good but if my mind is simply a highly sophisticated monkey's mind why do you trust the thoughts of your own mind now in a sophisticated way that's called epistemological neoism and it's basically the idea that why do you trust rational thinking if rational thinking comes from the irrational or the non-rational or just a monkey the reason I trust my rational mind is because I believe that my rational mind comes from a rational being a creator who gave me this rational mind and that's what Einstein was enthralled by one of the biggest Miracles is that our minds have the ability to get in touch with reality why is there not a total disconnect between my rational mind and reality and Einstein was enthralled by that so that is what I meant when I say logic is important it's not that you can logically prove God but if you if you think clearly and when I say think clearly I don't just mean um some philosophical argument for God's existence when you look at your experience of Life Jesus makes far more sense than any of the options what do I mean well I mean by that when you get to know Graham well enough you know that Graham's a great guy you also know that there's some things about Graham that are questionable and Graham will find out the same thing about you okay and you'll find out the same thing about me you've been very kind and you you've talked about how nice guys we are but I can promise you he's a sinner and I can promise you I'm a sinner and you get to know well enough and there's going to be some selfishness some greed that's going to be embarrassing all right now when you look at the world view that best describes how you can do great things and you can do some really warped things Jesus answers that question in other words he describes reality as you experience it in a really profound way does that make sense he can describe it but he still doesn't necessarily like it doesn't it's it's IM material and and it's hard to adopt as someone who's open to it but just skeptical something that can't be touched it can't be seen it can't be any of that and sure humans have a natural inclination towards spirituality absolutely um because we do ask the question why do we exist and maybe some people get the answer when they have a child because like well I exist to reproduce and to have a family and this and that I like to think that it's more so in the wise words of Tom Bilu he said this which I love Tom Bilu he said I exist to increase human flourishing and decrease human suffering and so sure the the Bible might be a great representation of that set of values um and it's a great interpretation it was very well ahead of its time and it's very intelligent and this and that it's it's so hard to trust something like that when you also have communities that get together and they increase human flourishing and decrease human suffering and you know we have a natural disposition I like to think towards a little bit of good maybe 5149 and over an expanded a big enough expanded time Horizon then that will you know increase flourishing and decrease suffering but who's to say again what is good if there is no God but get back to Hindu examp be fooling as opposed to suffering well but but so then he's going to say that in Hinduism when the husband dies and the wife is burned to death and her body is put on her husband's in a mass grave they say that's a very good thing so that's not flourishing for the woman obviously as we Define it but they would Define it as no that that's good they need to go into the life together so for whoever he is I believe he's ushering in the Christian perspective on we are created in God's image and God has created us to flourish and to help others flourish and destruction entropy evil those are all real intangibles immaterial and if you have the intangibles and immaterial then that's going to push you to some type of spiritual realm in reality and so what explains that spiritual realm and reality well there's only physical reality you can't explain that's the atheistic worldview that's in no way going to connect and and say wow there is a spiritual reality but we all know there is a spiritual reality or something IMM material for example that you were communicating which is hey look the biggest questions of Life are where do we come from what is our purpose and where are we going biggest questions at some point every single human being that I know at least is going to ask those questions so the typical college student is asking those questions but there are definitely some who are saying no no no I'm just going to get through school right now I could care less about those those big questions but they're going to have to ask them eventually and so back to that person it's equally valid and okay in my mind if there is no objective good and objective meaning to say well who are you to tell me that that flourishing and versus destruction and not flourishing why is that innately good or better if there is no God why in the world if I'm sitting on the top of a building and decide to throw my baby off of the top of that building if there is no God who who am I to say that that's bad but if there is a God and I'm throwing my baby off the top of a building then that's morally objectively evil and wrong if there is a God another way to look at it is you're a really nice guy and you're an agnostic and I would argue the reason you're a really nice guy is because you have a conscience given you by God and your conscience and your rational mind enable you to understand this is really good and this is really evil but the point we're trying to make Jack is there is no basis for an objective good or an objective evil if there is no mind no God prior to the human mind because if there is no God then we create good and evil and they're not objective they're subjective which means you might Define flourishing today as giving him a meal you're going to buy him dinner tonight that'd be nice Jack yeah put on the great IDE thanks a lot I like you man I appreciate that but if tomorrow you say that good is to stick a knife in Graham's back you're not wrong you're not objectively wrong because right and wrong are just in relative subjective taste but you could across enough people with the law of big numbers get seven billion answers to the question is it a good or a bad thing to stab somebody K them then you could determine even barring I like to think judeo-christian values if you just ask people people that have no idea people of tribes and you're like okay and they're like well why you know what did he do and they're trying to justify it they have some sort of moral compass aside from okay it sounds like I'm saying something that that's really good and that's what I'm saying is absolutely right take enough data points it might be 5149 but but you see the you're absolutely right around the world it looks like we're reading off the same sheet music when it comes to yeah sticking knives in people's backs is not too good there are some unfortunate aberration from that but the question then is why does that understanding come from that indeed murder adultery are really evil evolutionarily speaking you could say that humans have learned that we work better as a community and a rising tide lifts all boats and so if you help out somebody then you're bound to be better off and I think humans yes while we are naturally a little bit selfish I don't think being selfish is bad thing uh and I think that you can be selfish and help yourself because that's kind of a prerequisite to helping other people and then eventually if you're in a better spot like it helps the community and it increases flourishing and so we've learned uh because we're smart enough fortunately that that's the that's the way to do it but just don't help somebody outside of your tribe well that is selfish because it's hurting your tribe if they're in direct opposition to your tribe but if they're kind of just existing then expansion of the tribe is never a bad idea like you could this is very hypothetically speaking theoretical just say I'm just trying to like yeah but but I think we have so much tribalism in our nation today and that's only growing the extremism and saying oh if you're a Democrat and I look I'm going to completely look down on a Republican or a republican is going to completely look down on a Democrat and we're going to shout over each other we're going to totally disagree on what is morally objectively right or wrong because so much much of it has become subjective and so much of it is based off of Just emotion I'm just going to emote and say this is my view on things and you better get on board with my tribe or you know you're done with so so when you have moral objectivity which is immaterial has to be given by something spiritual outside of the physical well now all a sudden you're you're saying okay we can speak the same language what is morally right and wrong now we may have differences on small ethics and that sort of thing but if you're gonna take it from you scratch my back and I'll scratch your back yes innately that is that is selfish because we have so many people in this day and age now saying well you didn't really scratch my back so I'm done with you I I mean I am done with you and that yet again shows that our especially our generation is living for self it's all about self assertion versus sacrifice for others because if I'm truly living based off of this evolutionary cycle again it's strong e the weak you're in my way and so I'm going to dominate you in some kind of way because it's all about me how do you resist cultural influences like greed or lust or any sort of Pleasures like that well is a cultural influence but it's also as I've tried to point out to you guys part of my sinful nature all right nobody has to teach me to be greedy comes very naturally now there are many examples though in my culture watching the news and movies that influence me to be greedy the advertising industry Etc all right so we've got myself my sinful nature we've got the culture as you pointed out so well gr we also have I'm convinced a personal being who's committed to evil a spiritual being called Lucifer M Scott peek the great Connecticut psychiatrist wrote a book called people of the lie after he wrote the book The Road Less Traveled and in his book He's arguing that American Psychiatry should have a branch of evil but I really like this issue of of motive and what really drives us grah if you scratch my back then I will scratch your back wow that's pretty self-centered isn't it you better first scratch my back and then I'll scratch yours so we'll take a step forward Graham I'm going to scratch your back because I think that there's a higher probability that you will scratch my back if I scratch your back okay we're moving a little towards a more altruism a little less self-centered uh Graham I'll scratch your back regardless even if you don't scratch my back tomorrow or whenever I'll scratch your back okay I think that's real love I really want the best for you I really want your good okay now here's God's love I'll scratch your back even if you stick the knife in my back and that's what the Cross of Christ is all about God says you basically stuck the knife in my back rebelled against me or ignored me however we want to frame it but I still love you so much that I sent my son Christ to bleed and die on a cross to pay the penalty for your wrongdoing to forgive you now that's why I follow Christ really it's not because the logic it's because when I'm confronted by love I'm confronted by reality on a depth that I've got to respond because to be honest with you um my relationship with him with his mother with my other our two sons with our daughters-in-law with our grandchildren far outpaces any logic any scientific principle it really is all about love and once again here where Jesus comes in Jesus says yeah the real purpose of life is to love God with your heart soul mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself Bingo my experience of reality is spoton why is it then that Christianity has been declining for the last 50 years 40 years why is that it's growing faster than ever oddly enough because you're probably talking about in the west because it has decreased some corre but no Christianity and Islam are going to take over us soon 60% of the US and so when I talk to Muslims it's it's OD they know this on college campuses they'll be like yeah yeah you and I we're going to take over the US lar because of immigration and and growth in numbers because generativity Christians have more kids than atheists and agnostics so it's growing but it's it's growing in like wildfire in Africa China South Korea and Latin America why is that I believe personally that that's connected to things like forgiveness people are finding forgiveness intimacy with God who a God who actually loves you equality so one of the fastest growing churches actually in the Middle East started by females let talk about risk that was one of the fastest growing churches in Iran and why did they start that church why did they become Christian because they said I was being abused by my husband that religion says that men can do whatever they want to me and I believe that we have equal value and so I believe in Jesus Christ and so they started this church and it just ballooned so I think Whenever there is tremendous martyrdom Whenever there is persecution like in the underground Church in China there's going to be 100 million Christians in China probably the next five years they're saying I I think the persecution is what's all of a sudden causing this explosion and in Africa in the last 100 years went from 2% to almost 50% Christian now so a lot of it has to do with the poor Jesus Christ calls the poor frequently calls those who are humbling themselves so that's why you have The Sermon on the Mount sermon on the plane one is more so about humbling ourselves actually in such a way we're giving away money where we're sacrificing for others relationally and the other is more spiritual on humility so I believe it's ultimately God working but people are starting to say hey a lot of these things like we are all created equal a lot of these things like forgiveness you know our buddy Logan Paul Paul said I love the I love the value of Christian forgiveness the principle of it and he had to forgive somebody that's why he said somebody was really wronging him but he said I love this Christian idea of forgiveness and I think we've seen a decrease in it ever since we've adopted the philosophy of you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours because ultimately it's about no you better do this for me I'm not going to really sacrifice for you and forgive you if you don't scratch my back because we've set this type of principle up in place and that's dangerous so so others though thousands of Muslims are becoming Christians in dreams so there's all different kinds of ways that Christ is reaching people and it's amazing how it's happening and and the Christian faith is still the biggest religion in the world atheism is declining in the US it's going to go from about 133% they're saying all the way down to 8% and and so it's ballooning for different reasons but it's really exciting stuff because I think you like like you said the principles of compassion sacrifice loving all came from the Christian faith beginning early in the Roman Empire for someone that's never prayed before how do you recommend someone go about their first ever prayer session prayer is simply the real you talking to the real God the thing that I like to do is to teach people to draw up a chair next to them an empty chair nobody sitting in it and I encourage them to start talking to Jesus as if he was sitting right there in the chair meaning by that you have to dig deep you've got to get in touch with who you are with what's happening and then you got to pray to the real God so that means you need to read the Bible that'd be very helpful to understand what the real God is like little boy was painting a picture and dad said who's the picture of little boy said it's a picture of God dad dad said oh no no no no no son nobody knows what God looks like little boy says Well they will when I'm finished with this picture so adults are a lot like that little boy we like to paint God in our own image I like to believe in a 6'1 inch white male God who likes basketball oh that's interesting cliff and yet so happens you're 6' 1 inch and you are white male and you like basketball well isn't that interesting no prayer is not sort of constructing a God who I hope exists somewhere and then sort of trying to talk to him no prayer is the real you talking to the real God and so the challenge is you got to ask the question Who is the real God and that's where Jesus comes in he claims to be revealing who the real God really is and what if you don't get an answer four answers to prayer first answer is no I don't like that answer but God is not the little Cosmic bell boy who fetches my bags every time I to ask him to so the first answer is no Cliff second answer is slow down Cliff be patient third answer is grow Cliff I'm going to use this situation in your life to grow you in character spiritually and then the fourth answer is go go go yes so I've got to allow God to give me all four of those answers 15% of atheists pray so they don't believe in God but they pray so innately we have a desire to cry out whether we're in our pain or often times even when things are going well for me it's the Lord's Prayer you can break it down into acts a adoration adoring God saying God you are ultimately worthy of my allegiance C confession I apologize for being tremendously prideful at times yesterday I lost my cool on the basketball court I apologized for my rage or my lust whatever it might be T is thanking God for things just thanking God I mean look at the psychological studies on gratitude gratitude is the healthiest thing you can really do and then s supplication that's when you ask for things see so many people think prayer is just shooting up flares into the air and saying God Can I have this this this and this well that makes me more anxious if I just do that anxious because I don't know how God's going to if he's going to answer no prayer is all about not getting God just to answer all of my small issues no it's all about getting to know God and putting God in his rightful place not treating him as if he's just my secretary who I occasionally go to to ask for things Simone Veil said prayer is all about attention so we just talked about attention how attentive can we be in prayer prayer is all about wrestling I mean every single example of prayer you get in the Bible whether it's habac Jeremiah David sobody the prophet in the Kings they are yelling at God in their pain they are yelling at God in unanswered prayer they are yelling at God when they're struggling with things and they can't get over certain character issues I mean David in the watches of the night he's dealing with anxiety and yet he's saying praise the Lord of my soul all my inmost being praise His holy name when I do that my anxiety and stress is just alleviated for me when I've been in the hospital before and they thought I was having Min Strokes all of a sudden scripture just came pouring into my mind I just started praying and that was the only thing I could say actually I wasn't able to speak so prayer is something that's so gutal it's so innate within all of us we want to cry out to something and the saddest thing for an atheist is a Christian can say thank you God for what I have in this life but an atheist has no one to thank for what they have in this life as business owners ourself we understand exactly how expense chaos feels we have endless receipts invoices and subscriptions that I don't even remember signing up for it's a nightmare but with today's sponsor ramp managing your expenses can be completely transformed ramp is a corporate card that automates your entire expense process the moment your team makes a purchase ramp takes care of the receipt matching categorization approvals basically eliminating all of the tedious busy work that used to drain your time and let's face it there's nothing worse than wondering if your financials are truly accurate or even Auto ready well with ramp integrating directly into your Erp you get complete control over every transaction 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to mention here's the best part you could try it free for 3 months all you have to do is go to gusto.com IED to get started today again that's gusto ./ with the link Down Below in the description to try it out for yourself thank you so much again Gusto for sponsoring our episode and now let's get back to the podcast I really want to know because we talked about a lot of forgivable sins one thing that's always been interesting to me is the unforgivable sin which is blaspheming the spirit I don't really perfectly understand what that is um can you help me understand what is the unforgivable sin yeah if you get into a fist fight and you knock somebody out cold and they end up dying and you were in a fit of rage when that occurred and then you get knocked out and you die well are are you going to hell I mean your last passionate Act was killing somebody even if it was accidental are you going to hell for it no it's no one thing one sin that sends you to hell or if you're in a road rage incident you kill somebody and you die at the same time are you going to hell I mean your last Act was an act of Rage Christ never says that never points to that there there's no one single sin that send you to hell and so I'm not going to name a certain denomination but a certain denomination when I ask them this question hey is there one unforgivable sin and they say yes obviously where in the Bible do you get that sends you to Hell nowhere I mean Elijah makes the the point that it's not my life to take when he's but nowhere does it say is someone going directly to hell if they commit so the unforgivable sin or grieving the holy spirit is living a life of hypocrisy of saying hey Jack you're a good buddy of mine but you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna cheat with your wife oh I'm so sorry Jack sorry I did that npe I'm gonna do it again so it's hypocritical living that's why Kira nightly the great actress said oh it' be so easy to be a Christian you could just live out the Christian walk and then break it and then go back to Christ say hey I'm so sorry forgive me and then just go do it again no that's cheap Grace that's playing a dirty trick a dirty game with a relationship with the god of the Universe I mean you would never treat Graham in that kind of way would you you would you wouldn't be friends hope not so it's cheapening the relationship it's beyond cheapening the relationship it's it's it's embarrassing you can't have a friendship that way so it's knowingly just like consistently cheating on your relationship with God essentially over and over and over and over again because I was kind of curious earlier in this conversation I mentioned okay well as long as I know that on my deathbed I can go and I can you know ask for forgiveness but I can lead a life full of sin and I know I have let's say 60 more years where I can just go and you know succumb to all of my sin and desire uh then I can still like like we're going to end up in the same place but you're saying if I'm making that calculated decision and I have all the evidence and information and I consistently just like cheat on my relationship with God not with any of my friends then that is blaspheming the spirit that is going to 100% can't there's no forgiveness yeah I had a friend tell me in high school hey Stu let's keep smoking weed together and drinking as much as we can and let's go sleep with as many women as possible and then when we're in our late 30s and we're having kids that's when we'll accept Christ well how do you know you're not going to die before then and also again it's it's playing God and saying ah God you didn't really create me in your image you didn't really create me in such a way where it's healthy for me to serve you and love others so those are the two reasons and you you see the hypocrisy behind it that's a type of grieve in the Holy Spirit where I truly believe in God but you know what God I'm gonna live any old way I want to and that gets back to a heart and motive issue you know when you're G to say hey God you know what I know you tell me not to look at but I'm G to look at it all the time and I'm sorry but I'm going to choose uh I'm just going to keep looking at hard no I think you're going to get to the point of saying this isn't just a slip up this is is me saying I'm going to be God and I'm going to make my own choices on how to live and so that's that's that's where God is saying be very careful now what I'm curious about is how Christians discern against someone who in is very sincere in what they want to get across and someone who's just seeking personal gain like I think a lot of CR criticism has been directed towards like televangelists or people who have use donations to fund luxury Lifestyles and private jets and mansions aren incredibly judgmental of those tele evangelists my goodness they know they got a bad rap for no reason I would argue no they're not they might be being judgmental but when Jesus says in Matthew 7:1 judge not lest you be judged he's not saying suspend your critical thinking and stop making analysis no if that tella evangelist is saying I believe in Jesus and then they go out and sleep around I believe in Jesus and then they go out and live an opulent lifestyle and could give a rip about the poor that's a good analysis we got a problem here and that's why the word hypocrisy is vice is compliment to Virtue Vice understands you claim to be a follower of Christ you could give a rip about the poor you are one stinking hypocrite at what point is a massing a certain amount of wealth like sinning is because I know like gluttony kind of right would would somehow play a role in that I'm guessing y or some form of greed could probably play a role but like Is wealth in and of itself just in a vacuum a bad thing at a certain point nope that's a very sensitive question Jack and the reason it's such a good question is because the sin that Jesus attacks most consistently in the New Testament is greed the Bible consistently says not that money is evil but that the love of money is evil and yet it's amazingly easy in our culture to justify not being more generous and giving more away keeping more for myself and to be honest with you jack you've just put your finger on the biggest ethical struggle I have I'm a pastor I speak to University students about faith in Christ why do I have as much as I do why don't I give my money more of it away in light of the fact that we do have the solution for starving babies give them money buy food and feed them why do I not give more away and that is probably the biggest ethical struggle I have Jack so you're right it's a very very difficult issue now what about for the people who can't afford to give money to the church but they feel compelled that they have to otherwise they're not going to be in God's good grace or the people let's say that maybe they're having trouble paying rent but it's it's accustomed to pay 10% of their income to the church maybe they're struggling behind the scenes and they really can't afford to do this but they feel like if they don't something might happen tithing money like support those families yeah exactly it often times does we have a Samaritans fund at our church so out the poor and that's tremendously important but if you go back to the Old Testament you know you have theal laws it's more like 26% tithing and then you have 10% in the New Testament so you don't have this Ironclad law again that if you don't tithe that's going to send you to hell you look at the Widow very poor woman gives away two might I mean that's a lot of her possessions that she's giving away that's that's just sinking her into more poverty well that's why Jesus talks about a joyful Giver giving and response to what he did on the cross for us grows us in our own Joy you know when you give away to others I me talk about selfish you can be selfish that's one of the quickest ways to get happy is when you give away your money oddly enough that's kind of strange so no it's I I personally believe at times I have friends who've sunk into tremendous debt and I think they should wait to give wait till you slowly get out of some of that debt so you don't have to give that week there's nothing in the Bible that says that how do you know when you're ready to give the way that I just transparently see it is now this could obviously come across it's very selfish I'm just trying to be transparent and honest is that I need to take care of myself and have enough money invested to then be able to make sure that I'm able to take care of my family I want to have kids and I want to have a wife and like lead a good life and I want to give away money and donate but in order to do that I need to build up a certain Investment Portfolio that would allow me to guarantee at the bare minimum I can take care of my family like but but technically speaking even if if I'm earning an okay amount of money like I could be donating more of it I do donate a little bit but I know I could do more but I'm also like really focused on making sure I I guarantee like I'll be able to take care of those people what do you think about that I think you've just shown us a tremendous example of discipline a very healthy good discipline you need to discipline yourself financially so you make whatever you make I would encourage you to set in your own mind and heart the amount of money you want to give away I would encourage you to save as you said you were looking forward having a family and then I would encourage you to adjust your lifestyle and that's the hard part for I think for most of us I've got to adjust my lifestyle to live within my income so that I don't slip into debt but I've got to be thinking about being generous I got to be thinking about the future and then I've got to think hard about adjusting My Lifestyle I also oddly enough I could do the calculations I think to myself well if the S&P 500 grows at 10 % per year like if I'm able to invest you know an extra 500 bucks a month instead of giving away $500 per month right now like the exponential value in terms of what I can give in the future like that as a as a true number will be larger than if I give away $500 right now and consistently over time because I'll just be able to give more like relative wealth than if I were to just give right now is there anything like that that's how my mind also like kind of well it's interesting how in scripture especially in the Old Testament you get these things called the gleaning laws and that comes over a long period of time where eventually you're supposed to leave a big part of your Harvest and a good part of your Harvest to the poor to come collect and they were to collect it see so that's against socialism certain laws when it comes to finance because they're to collect it it's not you giving it to them they're to collected so that takes time that's not weekly that's not a type of weekly tithing so I think you're kind of connected to these gleaning laws that happen that happen more annually that's interesting huh okay and Jack your discipline is outstanding because you and I live in a culture that says just pile up the credit card debt so I commend you highly for that and then I ask you please read the gospels exercise discipline read those gospels in order to determine whether Jesus is reliable or not it takes discipline Jack's discipline is good but his investing skills are not vulnerability this is so it's off color I mean he's not he's not wrong but every a little goes down okay the snp's down recently because he dumped in a large amount I told him the end of the year you know I'm thinking the next day it's just down he your friend Jack not wrong in fact I I appreciate that he's telling it to me straight you know I like to think I can pick out individual stuff socks and you know hit it on the upswing it's funny I don't tell Jack what I invest in because I know as soon as he does they go down every single but In fairness I I do like 95% of Auto invest S&P 500 it just so happens if you ever see like a little blip in your portfolio no I just lumpsum invested shortly before that the day before yeah the day before so sb500 guys not individual stock picking just letting you know and no credit card debt so I'm curious going back to this what has been the most difficult belief or concept that you wrestle with the problem of suffering uh John and I have a younger brother who lost a seven-year-old daughter in a horrible car accident and he's a transplant surgeon he was out transplanting kidneys and livers out and pancreas out at the University of Wisconsin Madison so I flew out there and and walked with him around the field behind his house and uh to to listen to the pain over losing his little daughter was incredible you know so the question obviously then becomes okay the babysitter didn't see the stop sign drove right through the stop sign and a pickup truck at 55 mph came careening down the road smacked into the side of that car sending our little niece his daughter into an early grave okay God why didn't the babysitter see the stop sign why was the pickup truck coming exactly 55 mil an hour timing was perfect just creamed into the car see there's a bunch of I do not know I don't know but my faith in God my faith in Christ is not based on the circumstances of life it's based on the character of God and that is why it's so important to read the gospels to figure out is God really good because if Jesus revealed God accurately God is really good in spite of all the horror the suffering that life throws right into your face and my face so in a case like that because I'm just trying to think abstractly does does everything happen for a reason and if someone in that case goes through suffering was that meant to happen I would be very very very careful with that line of thinking yeah everything happens for a reason uh-uh if I fall back and smack you in the face gram as hard as I can and then say Oh God made me do it or well there was a reason that I needed to do that be very careful very careful okay no I think that we live in a world where there are accidents where there is great unfairness for there is where there is incredible chaos and no I I am very loathed to say oh there was a reason for this we we really don't know Romans 8:28 God works together all things for his good A lot of people will rip that passage right out of context and say oh yeah see there there's a reason for it go you know God has a reason no he works all things so the good and the bad ultimately for his great purpose but that's not saying that he's bringing on the bad bringing on the evil it's not like Hinduism that's saying hey my cousin his niece who died in that car accident did something wrong because there's always a onetoone connection in Hinduism if you did something wrong that's why you suffered if you suffered it's because you did something wrong atheism secularism it's not really that wrong that's why CS Lewis the most reluctant convert the greatest mind over at Oxford and Cambridge said originally I wasn't a Christian because I didn't think there was enough evidence but then all of a sudden I was really encountered with a lot of suffering and then I really thought if there's a God he's definitely not a good God to allow suffering but then I thought a little harder and started to reason with myself in saying oh wait if I believe that this is really wrong this suffering well then I'm ushering in a type of moral obligation this is morally wrong it's intangible so there must be some type of spiritual ethereal existence that actually says this is really wrong because from an evolutionary perspective it's not really wrong it's you could say it's sad but there's not real evil there's not real suffering where where it really should be wrong in itself so all other is again it gets back to your very first question you know why Jesus why would this make all you know make sense in a way that I should be able to grasp it well what are the Alternatives so you you can't just look and just put Jesus Christ in the Judgment seat on the dock you have to put all the Alternatives and if you do so we believe it's not even close we believe that the Christian world You by Far and Away makes no sense what's the most challenging aspect for you to share these thoughts with non-believers and what are some of the barriers that you found that you have to overcome sex it's always sex really yeah we was talking to a guy at Yale and he just kept jumping all over the place oh there's inconsistency in the text here oh over here Stuart you know you don't live a consistent lifestyle anyway so probably I shouldn't believe in Christ oh here he was just doing the machine gun style one two three kept going and then I said I think there's something underneath this I think it's more of an emotional issue you know the question becomes if Christianity were true would you believe in it often times people say yes often times people say no if they say yes then it was an evidentiary issue that they had to they believe it actually is true so I better hold on to it it's truth if they say no it's clearly an emotional bias it's no I still don't want it even if it's true and so what this guy did eventually I said okay so you don't like the ethics which ethic do you not like and he said sex I want to sleep around as much as possible I said well that's why exactly it's an emotional issue for you that's why you don't believe now he didn't fully say yes but he got to the point of understanding what I was saying there and started to really grapple with it it's more of an emotional issue it's more a volitional issue how I'm living versus really dealing with the evidence when is the last time you both seriously doubted your faith and what was that like this morning seriously well yeah every time I sin I'm doubting my faith every time I sin I'm saying God you're not really good I got a better idea you may you know have expressed doubt in your faith by sinning but maybe made an intentional like and and thought about and wrestled with your faith like you know what I mean like a like a something where maybe you were thinking about it for a few hours or a week or a couple weeks and you're like confused I am self-absorbed and instead of thinking about the other person I think about myself too much I mean Christ calls us to live lives of service why is that so hard for me because I got real needs and Jack and gramy Stewart you know your needs are nice and I'm sure you've got needs but my needs are more important see I've got to get to the point where I realize your needs are just as important is my needs and that's why I'm going to serve you guys I'm not just going to be self-absorbed into into myself so that's what I struggle with on a daily basis when we talked about the old we've had a few gosh how many debates have we had with atheists over slavery in the Old Testament that's one that's really it's a hard issue yeah I think done a job on our minds and hearts I believe yet again that the Theocratic law the mosaic law makes by far and way the most sense when it comes to slavery in the Bible I don't think the Bible in any way says that slavery is good and yet there are a couple verses like in Exodus 21 that are that are tough to to wrestle with so that would be one okay that's a classic example when I first was hit with the slavery issue I know I remember exactly where it was it was University of Texas Austin a bunch of grad students were really after me this was years ago and it was a whole issue of the Bible does not come out and just flat out condemned slavery right from the beginning and you know I said okay fine I I hadn't really thought about it so I went back and talked with some Christians who are far more intelligent and well read than I am and they helped me begin to work it through but I still struggled with it it was still hard for me and it's been now 40 years since that time and the more I thought it through the more I am at peace with it the Bible never endorses slavery the Bible never recommends slavery the Bible gives us instructions on how cultures where slavery was rampant are to handle it and when Paul writes slaves obey your masters he's not saying that slavery is good the same way if you say to me Cliff I just entered the Armed Forces should I kill someone with my gun and if I give you an answer I'm not saying all war is good I'm not even saying the specific War you're fighting in is good I'm saying you've enlisted obey your commanding officer but then I'm going to go on with a caveat but if your government calls you to kill someone in order to keep gas prices low at the pump you better be a conscientious objector no don't kill anybody so this whole idea that the Bible is pro slavery I mean baloney the great second greatest miracle in the Old Testament was God and The Exodus delivering the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt and what Paul writes in the letter of phiman is hey philimon I'm going to jerk your chain buddy I met your runaway slave on esmus in prison I led him to Faith and now I'm going to send him back to you and you're not to accept him back as a runaway slave you're to accept him back as a brother in Christ and you got problems with that I'll pay that's really interesting and I see a lot of parallels between that and other things I see online or things I've gotten hate for online which is I'm saying a statement of fact or a piece of guidance or advice that isn't a moral statement Bingo it's just a statement like exactly if I'll I can go to someone and say you should take Supreme responsibility for your life take agency over your life if you're ever in a bad situation think what can you do to better your situation and people online will think oh well you're not sympathetic towards the environment around them that put them in this really bad situation I'm like I'm not even considering that because it's like that's out of the question I'm just trying to help thank you and so I I see that a lot and that's a lot of hate stems from that it's like you everyone sees everything as a moral statement when I'm just making a simple statement of why does it seem like hate is increasing is it just because it's it's what's shown online or is is there is there a reason this great sociologist from Notre Dame named Christian Smith he talks about how as we're losing the concept of sin in the US the more hate is coming into play because no longer do we realize hey you mess up all the time I shouldn't be shocked by that I mess up all the time you shouldn't be shocked of that one of the greatest things he's ever said to me was don't be surprised by somebody's sin because I get surprised all the time oh you snubbed me what the heck I thought we were buddies I thought we were colleagues what's going on here and so Jonathan height out of NYU another great psychologist sociologist said that we were all born self-righteous all studies show that and so it goes back to I'm not really a sinner I've got this right you've got that wrong and because of that hey I'm gonna hate you if you do wrong things if you do bad things to me so as that leaves I don't think as the doctrine of sin leaves are we necessarily going to have a great Purge here in the US I I don't think all the sudden everybody's going to bring out guns and knives and just start killing each other do I think we could head in that direction absolutely and that's what he says because all of a sudden moral obligation will break down all of a sudden you created the image of God me Crea the image of God that's going to break down so I'm going to demonize you in any kind of way I want I'm going to judge you in any kind of way I want and it's my truth your truth is your truth my truth is my truth so it's just subjectively morality just breaks down sexual confusion it's breaking down left and right and so this idea of hate faction all of these things are growing tribalism all these things are growing and it largely has to do with America's concept of sin was right there from the beginning with our founding fathers everybody was clear on we are all sinners and yet we are all equal Crea the image of God all of that is breaken down broken down and as pastors we encounter people all the time sin that's a dirty word I don't even know what it is so that's what Christian Smith the sociologist that deame puts out beautifully and and I think it's true the reason I like the question is because it's a classic example of why agnosticism practically speaking is impossible because I will either hate you or be apathetic towards you or love you and the way I respond to you shows my world view it shows do you have innate value or do you not and if you don't have innate value and you rub me the wrong way there's nothing wrong with me hating you that's what you deserve but if you're a human being created in the image of God and if there is a God who created me to love you and to love my enemy shoot I got no choice hatred is wrong I must love you even though that's the last thing I want to do I'm curious in terms of the self-absorption has that been something that you've had your entire life oh yes absolutely I I've been you that's why I agree with CS Lewis when he writes in Mere Christianity that the great sin is pride the great sin is self- Fascination self-righteousness I am the greatest we've talked we've talked now for about an hour about me let's change the topic let's talk about my career now it's all about me and that's why Christopher lash wrote the culture of narcissism we are just become narcissists because it it makes sense it's all about me I mean if there is no God at the center of the cosmos it is all about me my life and how much I can get how much I can use you manipulate you to get for myself but if there is a God at the center of the cosmos and it's not all just about matter and energy and money and pleasure if I was really created to care about you and to bring good into your life and if that's a moral absolute then I better get off my lazy backside and start working for your well-being and not be so self-absorbed as I too naturally am I was watching this morning with my daughter's um a certain movie that was it was a cartoon but it was all about this girl fulfilling her own dreams and getting other people out of the way because I'm going to fulfill my own dreams and aspirations every narrative in our culture today is about our own dreams and aspirations and becoming an authentic self here all the time that's everywhere so no longer your earlier pointr of Na you know living for nation patriotism if you look historically we used to live primarily for God then it shifted into the 30s 40s and 50s strong sense of patriotism but now it's all about the self living for the self self-absorption so you're supposed to be self-absorbed and it's a good thing people often times like why wouldn't you no no no it's all about your career path just live for you if anybody gets in the way get them out of the way as fast as possible and so what that's creating is back to why do so many college students perhaps find what we're talking about attractive is because they are hurting due to this narrative because you think it's helping you think it's going to bring about your own personal happiness right my pursuit of happiness because it's all about me I'm G to get there but you never really get there it actually the more self-absorbed you are the more prone you are to depression anxiety and severe stress and so so many of these students who whether it's DMS emails call whatever it might be that's typically what they'll say to us they'll say Hey look thank you for for helping me with my pain that's connected to my self-absorption and depression because self-absorption is high self-esteem and low self-esteem I don't know about you guys but you know when I I was an All-American in sports I had high self-esteem but then after graduating I didn't have that anymore so all of a sudden I had low self-esteem all right you're being just as arrogant and prideful whether you have high self-esteem or low self-esteem because you're just obsessed with yourself so so many of these students that we're talking to as we point to Christ as we point to God they're coming out of their pain and learning hey it's not all about me and when they do that they find Hope joy and peace so I could be also equating incorrectly self-esteem with like happiness or joy because if I'm getting what you're saying it's like you are supposed to detach your happiness and joy from accolades achievements where you're at in life is that true or is that a yeah misrepresentation yeah it's it's the whole idea of born a man died a doctor you lost yourself you know you're a doctor you were just living for your career and oftentimes those people are the most miserable and arrogant and so it no it's it's very healthy to live for accolades in one sense but I certainly hope we're taking the number one commandment in the Bible seriously which is love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength love your neighbor as yourself because every happiness study points to if you truly want happiness you're going to worship God a god they would say and you're going to serve other people and where do you differentiate between confidence and arrogance yeah for me personally I think confidence is all about getting off that self-esteem Home Run Track you know if I'm really feeling like I knock it out of the park then I'm I am just High prideful it goes to my head but then all of a sudden if I start to fail if I lose a job if my kids are somehow I feel like failures then it goes to my heart and I feel like a total failure so confidence comes with getting off of that type of you know Rat Race and getting on to forgetting myself and when I forget myself and live for God now all of a sudden I'm not going to have low self-esteem I'm not going to have high self-esteem instead my pride is just going to be over here and here I am living for God and other people and that's when I'm functioning in a way where I'm truly confident and that's a healthy confidence rather than what culture says what positive psychology says I'm not I won't name any names it says no no no you know puff yourself up talk to yourself and the more you puff yourself up okay great maybe you get out of your depression out of that type of selft talk but you also become tremendously arrogant an excellent example of this is what's happened after these college football bowl games so many of the coaches and the players have been saying all glory to God all glory to Jesus Christ okay now that does not mean I'm not going to go to practice tomorrow and I'm not going to get as prepared as I can be for the next rung of the competition to be number one in the country but what it does mean is my confidence is in God my confidence is in Christ meaning by that my value comes from him my purpose comes from him I'm going to honor seek to honor him ethically as best as I can in other words I am confident about what God has called me to do my confidence is in him in the gifts and talents he's blessed me with my confidence is not I'm the best you all can bow down before me I like getting your moral value from something other than yourself for I also don't I don't like adjudicating right versus wrong I don't want to Bear the responsibility of knowing like what is the morally right thing to do in a certain circumstance like I'd rather like ask my dad or I'd rather like ask my mom you know what I mean or like ask someone else because I don't want to make the wrong moral decision so that's that's that's kind of nice I know that you've spoke to a lot of people on their deathbed which is very interesting that's not something a whole lot of people get the opportunity to do what are some of the common threads you've seen when they read scripture they break down crying and they've a lot of them haven't read scripture in their entire lives maybe when they're really young from their parents but there's something about the power of scripture that is a little more powerful than Shakespeare and other beautiful works that I believe God is speaking directly to people's hearts through I I truly believe that the reason why the Bible has been the bestselling book every single week since its Inception in the world there's a reason for it something about it and I would say it's because it's God inspired and so when I see these people breaking down in tears if you just give them a little bit of scripture think why is that what what's going on there because it often times surprises me and they could be from many worldviews what about regrets or other things in their life even if it's removed fully from religion just Trends you've noticed patterns yeah the biggest questions and concerns that people have on their deathbeds are could I have loved better could I have given more money away and what did I do with my relationships how much time did I spend with my family those are the biggest three questions that most people deal with and we have the opportunity of saying hey look you got some serious Reg rets what worldview gives you an opportunity to get rid of those regrets better than a worldview that says it's all about Jesus's Grace and forgiveness and it's nothing that you could do or have done so good or bad that makes you higher in the eyes of God because it doesn't it has nothing to do about our works it's how we respond to him so for us helping somebody understand that look Jesus Christ died on the cross for you suffers with you there's no other suffering God out there so when Paul talks about we are all New Creations the old is gone the new has come that's when people experience hey peace and it's it's not about what I've done how do they come to grips with death I've had several situations where um there has been real anger and there's been real despair I'll never forget in a hospital near here going into a room and the man was not real pleased to see me and his daughter was there and she was not real pleased to see me but he had a son who really wanted me to be there so in honor of the son and his request I went but when I raised the issue of Christ and God the guy sat up in his bed waved his fist like that and then fell back and so I knew I had to be very quiet I could not say a lot I wanted to respect the man and his his beliefs and yet if you're going to be intellectually honest that leads to disp there because death is the end we all know what happens when we die to our bodies they rot and the whole idea of life after death is a fantasy if there is no Supernatural God no we become fertilizer and that's truth that's accurate so it's very infrequent that I meet someone who's willing to logically take atheism to its logical conclusion which is despair but I have the utmost respect for the great philosophers like nii kamu sarra who pointed out the only question you got to answer is why not commit I mean why keep living if it's all a crapshoot if it's all ultimately meaningless why continue to suck wind and I think that to be intellectually honest if you're agnostic or atheist you have to ask the question it's not that you have to commit but you got to ask the question why should I keep continue to suck wind why should I keep going because it all is over when I die and that is why the resurrection of Christ is crucial and that is why I respect Christians who struggle with doubt who struggle with fear of death as they're beginning to realize I'm not going to be on this Earth much longer but they go back and study the resurrection did he really rise from the dead or did he not if he did WOW there is life after death if he didn't wow I'm not sure there is life after death and if there is no God there's definitely no life after death you don't talk to people who come back from the dead when you're dead you're gone but if there is a supernatural God then it's possible and and often for me when I do funerals it's hard because I'm standing there in front of a casket and the family and friends are around and I'm trying to communicate because this guy put his faith in Christ because this woman put her faith in Christ we're going to see her again one day those of us who've trusted in Christ we're going to see them again in heaven and at times I doubt at times I'm sitting there saying are you sure that cliff I mean this a dead body in a casket you really think you're going to see this person again but all I got to do Graham and Jack is look up and consider the vastness of the cosmos if there is a supernatural being who created the cosmos it's not stupid to believe there's life after death because that's peanuts compared to creating the cosmos in other words if I meet a woman or a man who can bake bread from scratch there they're a very talented Chef it's stupid of me to think can they really toast a pop- dart or a bagel well of course they can they can make bread from scratch well if God created the cosmos of course God can bring a resurrection body together life after death so see so much of this comes back to is there a supernatural God or not and has this Supernatural God revealed himself in Jesus Christ or has he not have you ever had any Supernatural experiences or anything that maybe you've seen that you just can't explain when my grandma was dying his mom all she could do in her final moments was quote scripture she couldn't speak friedr nche who was let's just say a strong atheist same thing he couldn't speak any other words than quote the scripture he was taught and memorized when he was a little boy so he hated the idea of God but he went to his death quoting exactly what Christ talked about and so my grandma obviously opposite from friedrick n she's had one of the strongest faiths that I've ever been around but that was one of the closest Supernatural experiences I've I had a couple but that was one of them seeing her quote scripture as she was passing out of this life and how she couldn't really say anything else I thought whoa God is in this place like there's something going on here that's pretty powerful and how interesting it is that memorizing scripture even if you're an atheist actually studies show that and these are from secular studies show that it pushes away Alzheimer's is actually tremendously healthy for your brain unlike memorizing other things so again I I don't know what that is I'm not sure maybe that's a supernatural piece as well so I think the power of scripture itself and how it comes out of people especially on their deathbeds is is a supernatural thing if you could ask God one question one question what would it be so he asked this to strangers all the time all the time asking what would you what would you ask what would I ask yeah I would ask um why did you not intervene and have the babysitter stop at the stop sign instead of having her just having him just crean through the stop sign and have my niece die at an early age the problem of suffering and what do you think he would say oh a lot a lot and I think you know one of one of the first points would be Cliff the reason you're outraged over the death of your niece is because you know how valuable life is if life is trash if life is insignificant and if love is just a chemical reaction you wouldn't be so hurt and so outraged I mean just think about it grief what is grief grief is loving someone and losing them if you don't love them you don't grieve and if you don't lose them you don't grieve but if you really love someone and you lose them you grieve and it hurts big time well is love real or is it just a biological chemical reaction in the brain and if it's just a biological chemical reaction because there is no God and it's all chemistry and chemicals what are you doing Cliff live out your world viw be intellectually consistent if that really means so much to you that your little niece died don't get bitter against God thank God for her thank God that you're going to see her one day and thank God that love is real and love is really what it's all about not trying to figure out how you could have created a better Universe than God did where your niece wouldn't get killed at an early age I mean it is so arrogant when the student at the University of Arizona said to me well if I was God I could have created a better Universe oh come on you're not that knowing you're not that smart hate to tell you that you could create a better Universe if you were God give me a stinking break that is the height of human arrogance and the reason I know that is because I didn't have a good answer for that student I said hm hm and I called out my brother who had just lost his daughter in that car accident he said excuse me you're talking to a university student who says if I was God I could have created a better Universe uh-uh and one of the key Parts in there is Free Will I mean to love demand's free will if we're just robots we don't love love is a free decision to care about about someone to be compassionate you don't have to love I don't have to love and so God creates us with a free will in a sense limiting his power and obviously that's a risk that we would abuse that Free Will and that's what sin is the abuse of the Free Will and it has horrible consequences but it'd be that issue that I would the issue of suffering for me it would be why hasn't Jesus returned yet God why why haven't you sent your son to Earth yet with all the with all the suffering with all the pain MH with all what's going on isn't it time to return but we have many friends who say he will be returning and it will be on January 23rd and I don't agree with that I think even even Jesus didn't know the day or hour think that's pretty clear and yet there are signs that point to it and Romans 8 talks about groaning that we see here in this planet and obviously Revelation a lot of people try and take that literally but we want Jesus here I think when when do you think that would happen when oh I have no idea if he doesn't know I definitely don't know but it makes a lot of sense when he came first you know that's when the greatest trade routes were beginning that's when the power was going on in Rome and eventually literacy as well so made a lot of sense when he came and I think it so it'll make a lot of sense when he returns thank you so much for your time you guys hosting us this has been such such a pleasure your beautiful home too thank you to the audience appreciate it an audience of three people listening to family members so once again really appreciate it great coffee great sugar cookies great podcast thank you guys for watching make sure to like And 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