Moments with Melinda: Interview with Julie Lowell

[music] Good morning and welcome to Moments with Melinda. My guest today is Julie Lol. Hi. How are you? >> I'm great. How are you doing today? >> I am great and I'm so glad to have you on my show. I have so much to ask about your life and your career and the work you've been doing for Vermont. But before I do that, let me share with my viewers who Julie LOL is. She is the deputy director and policy analyst for public assets. She has a PhD in social policy from Brandeise University's Heler School for Social Policy and Management. She her focus was on asset distribution and inequality. She studied the impact of federal and local housing policy on well-being for families living in poverty. She also plays ice hockey. >> I mean, woo. That's >> And I coach it. And you coach it >> just a little. Just to the 10 year olds. >> Oh, to the 10 year olds. What fun that is. >> Uh 10-year-old boys. Well, it's a co-ed league, but I have two sons, so I coach my son's team. >> Oh, that's wonderful. Well, welcome to my show, Julie. It's great to have you. Um, so, you know, I want to start at the beginning because you've had a fascinating career. Share with my viewers a little bit about your life growing up. Yeah. So, I actually grew up across the lake. I grew up in Malone, New York, which for those who know the Sunni schools is between Platsburg and Potam. Um, and I actually grew up in a pretty poor community, but I was one of the few who didn't grow up poor. Um, my dad was a general practitioner, and it just kind of struck me from a very young age the inequality that I was seeing that some kids just didn't seem to have the same resources and the same opportunities. Um, and that kind of was just the seed that got planted that kind of fed me into what I was interested in studying in college when I became a women's studies major and studied health and society. And as much as I kind of like lived in this poor town, I still hadn't really experienced and and didn't really have a lot of the deeper kind of connection and understanding. So, I studied policy in um in college, but I just didn't feel like I could do policy work still. It just felt kind of intangible to me. And so I spent a few years doing direct service. I worked at a domestic violence shelter out in Portland, Oregon. I worked at a domestic violence shelter in Chicago. And I very quickly um burnt out. It's really hard, exhausting work. Kudos to folks who can do that work. Um and and just wanted to seek kind of systemic solutions. And so I've kind of followed that throughine in my career ever since I went to the Heler School. at Brandeise University which is just was such a cool program. It was founded on this idea of social workers coming to become researchers to do sort of that more systemic change so that they could take their experiences and kind of transition transition that into research and try to make the social change. Um and that was a great experience. And then I did kind of a more um qualitative research with some quantitative aspects but really tried to connect with people and kind of have always had that people first focus in my work. >> What about your what about your mom? What did your mom was she >> My mom is a nurse practitioner. She's retired. Um but she went back to school when we were in high school. >> Good for her. >> Yeah. It was she was already a nurse. She was an RN. But it was like it was a big memorable moment, right? Because we lived in a very tiny town and so she had to drive all the way to Syracuse. It was a three-hour drive once a week that she took to kind of expand her career and um and she was a great practitioner in a small, you know, office in our small town. >> Wow. So you worked So So what what brought you to Vermont? >> Family. Um I was coming up here a lot. I wanted to be the favorite aunt. I had um I had my first nephew was born in 2004. Um and I was coming up here a lot anyway and it was just at the time where like technology was such that I could I could finish my degree anywhere. Um so I came to Vermont and I got a part-time job at CS. I was uh a family case manager and it just kind of was the the work I needed to do to understand the community and I also got some great professional connections to be able to do meaningful research and so actually my um graduate degree my research was here in Shenden County and I worked with Vermont families. >> Fantastic. Now you work for Vermont Works for Women. Were you in were you involved in the development of the reports change the story? Um because I was on the Vermont Commission on Women when we were sitting around the table and I said, you know, we need we need data. I mean, if we're really going to go out and fight this fight, we need the data. And that's when Vermont Works for Women, the Vermont Women's Fund and the Roma Commission on Women all came together to create those reports. Talk talk to us a little bit about the work because I'll bet you had your fingers in that. >> You know, it's interesting. I didn't. I was an observer. I at that time I so I started at Vermont Works for Women and I taught in the correctional facility which was kind of you know a whole graduate course compressed into one year of work. Um and the change the story report was being developed while I was at Vermont Works for Women. So I kind of followed along and maybe gave some feedback but it was a really exciting interesting time. Um, and when they relaunched the report just this past year, it was really exciting because I was at public assets institute and um, Suzanne from Vermont Works for Women approached me and said, "Would you like to, you know, would public assets take on doing the research behind our relaunch of the report?" So, it was a very cool like full circle moment to be like, "Oh, yeah, of course I know this report." Like everyone if they don't know, everyone should know this report, right? >> So much stuff. Well, yeah, that I mean that was extraordinary the what came out of that. But I just, you know, sort of to tie into to your work um in the in the women's prison. It was Vermont Works for Women that asked me to go into the prison. This is probably eight years ago and to present to >> the women and um I had my whole PowerPoint. Of course, they took away my computer. >> And I went, I was so honored. And I sat um on a little recycling um container, one of those square blue containers, and I put the women in a circle with me, and I sat lower than they did so that I could look up to them. And it was two groups. Um, and they came in and um, I spent I had one of the most extraordinary experiences with these women who were there, many of them, because of the men they slept with. And and I and I decided in that moment that the non-violent women should not be in prison. >> Yeah. >> With all these empty campuses, I so I'm I'm really one of those advocates to get women non-violent women out of prison and put them in in a in a in a school, a college setting. Anyway, that's another story that you and I should talk about. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So, but that's that's an interconnection with the Vermont Works for Women. >> Um, so as an advocacy coordinator at CS, you were there from 20 2007 to 2012. How have or would you define the growth of homelessness in Vermont since that time and the root causes and what thoughts do you have on changing the story on our homeless issues, especially in Burlington? Yeah, I mean I don't think the root causes have changed, right? We know that there's not enough affordable housing. Like this is always this is the cause of homelessness is having units that people can afford and can access. Some folks need higher levels of support in those units. But you know, I think that is truly the root cause. >> What about what about universal what about health care that ends up putting these people into bankruptcy that end up I mean you know healthcare >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think it's all so interconnected, right? That if we have these systems that can truly take care of people, then people can um and we have kind of a a comprehensive safety net, then people can maintain their housing. And don't don't find that one kind of bump in the road, whether it's health care, whether it's the loss of a job, whether it's um >> addiction, addiction, >> addiction, that these things don't kind of unseat the whole >> upset the whole apple cart, right? So, I think in terms of housing and homelessness, I mean, we've definitely seen it grown right now and and we're continuing to see our infrastructure, and by infrastructure, I mean like our our public systems pulling back, which is really scary, right? We don't have entitlement programs anymore. We have programs that you might be eligible for and you might be able to access if there's a spot or if you can get off the wait list. And so, that we're seeing that with emergency housing right now. That has been the case with public housing vouchers since I don't know how long, but since certainly when I was a case manager. Um, and you know, we're starting to see Medicaid and SNAP benefits pulled back more and more too. And so I think while we know the root causes are the same, um, what we know to be the solutions are unfortunately getting worse. >> Yeah. Thank you for that. You worked directly with survivors of domestic violence, families experiencing homelessness, and women exiting the correctional setting. You worked on programs to create a more equitable society. Talk to us about an equitable society and how do we create one. >> I mean, Bernie's been talking about this for >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I really think that vision is creating a community where everybody can access the resources that they need to thrive. I was recently reading um something by the economist Joseph Stiglets and it was sort of like oh I remember reading this years ago and and really like thinking about freedom as this freedom to be to be productive in whatever that means for each individual. And so how do we create those systems in our communities so people have that and and what you know what so that we have a strong public education so that everybody can access um the opportunities that they need so that we ensure that everybody has a base threshold of basic goods right that if you um if your family loses their job that your unemployment insurance pays enough that it's not going to upset your whole life. if you aren't able to work at some point because of health issues or disability, whatever the issue like that there's some basic income that you are able to meet all of those basic needs. And so we've I've really thought about it with partners as kind of this opportunity to um to have sort of economic security across the lifetime for everybody. And we've if you if we want to get kind of wonky for a minute, I kind of think about it in >> all that wonky. >> Okay, it helps me conceptualize like if we actually want to make the change, right? How do we how do we march forward with that? And so I often put these policies in kind of four buckets. Cash policies, so things like a really strong welfare program, which we know our reachup cash assistance is not right now. Um uh public goods, right? So those shared things that we've decided as a community are um we want to provide to everybody and that you get economies of scale by providing them for everyone like healthcare like public education and then some sort of wealth creation and wealth building and we know how to do that right as historically we have been really good in policy at building wealth for some folks and not for others. And so really kind of having a reckoning on what does that look like to make sure that everybody has wealth and how do we do that? And then finally um equitable economy. And so that kind of is like a big umbrella of policies like minimum wage policy, paid family medical leave, all of these various things that consumer protection right now, consumer data protection is a big part of this conversation. So, I think about it in those four buckets so that we can try to wrangle and wrap our hands around what I think can sometimes feel like really daunting work. >> Are you working with our delegation? >> We do work with them from time to time. We tend to focus a little bit more on state policy, but certainly in the last two years, we have been uh talking to them a little bit more and raising different concerns, right? because there's so much coming at us right now that it's like, I don't know if you heard about this, but I'm very concerned about X, Y, and [laughter] Z. >> Well, you should be Bernie's best friend. Um, >> share with my viewers the work you did to recently introduce your testimony to the Senate Economic Development and Housing and General Affairs Committee. The statistics and data to me were quite horrifying. For instance, one in 10 Vermoners relies on food assistance. share with me briefly this report you presented as it is especially important data. >> Oh, thanks for that question. And so one of the things that we've done at public assets institute since I've been with the organization for eight years >> and we've been doing this report I think for nearing 20 um is the state of working Vermont report and what we do every year is we take the economic indicators right this is our our primary breadandbut is paying attention to the data and trying to understand what that means for the everyday person and we take those different data points and we put it together into a comprehensive report. It usually comes out the first of the year and we look at the economy but we really try not to just kind of nerd out and we really try to transition that into something that's useful to people. So the way that the report is constructed is that every page is a chart or an indicator and then hopefully we hope and our goal is right to make those really user friendly so that you can understand what's going on and then a short paragraph that maybe adds some context to what this means for folks and what the reality is in Vermont. And so the testimony um to the Senate was uh was kind of reviewing some of those highle indicators and walking through walking people through what was going on in the state from our perspective. >> Where where can my viewers see that see that report? >> Uh publicassets.org. >> Okay. Has it on their website? >> If you type in stateofworking Vermont and make sure to add the um uh the quotation marks before and after it will pull up all of our State of Working Vermont reports here. >> I encourage my viewers to do that. publicassets.org. It's a fabulous website. Um, so you also wrote a commentary in May, the data privacy matters and the bill S71. But before you answer that, I want to tell you that I was at my doctor's office and I was talking to her about getting a a pull out Lazy Boy bed, you know, and getting rid of my futon and blah blah blah. And I went out to my car and happened to pull up my phone and guess what ads popped up? >> Ads for lazy boy. pull out beds and I and it happens all the time. I'll be talking about something at dinner, I'll go home, I'll pull up my feed and all a sudden there's an ad for what I was talking about. I sincerely believe that they have access to things that we say, but maybe that's just my old age paranoia. But talk to us about the data privacy matters bill and and the S71, which I assume was presented. Did it did it pass? It did not pass. Yeah, I'll >> Yeah, I'll I'll walk you through a little bit of my interest, right? Became um we pushed a lot for refundable tax credits so that people can file their taxes and that when they get their um when they file their taxes, they can get a refund back, right? So, it's not just that it would take off what you owe, but you could actually get a check. So, if you have we have a child tax credit, we have an earned income tax credit. >> And so, we really encourage people to apply for these credits. And then we heard at the start of 2025 that for the first time in 50 years, the IRS was breaking this firewall. The Department of Homeland Security had requested data in batch record form of 7 million filers. And so here we are trying to encourage people to file their taxes, trying to use the tax system as a way to get needed resources to folks. And the federal government is misusing this data. And so I really became interested in data security and data privacy because of the federal pieces um or because of the governmental pieces, right, of data privacy, but then quickly kind of began talking with folks and became really concerned about the economic implications of your private data being shared. And you're seeing things like surveillance pricing where people are being charged different um amounts for the exact same product because computers have collected so much data about us. They know our interests. They know our economic profile. They know where we shop. They know where we travel to, what what types of products we've looked at before, right? So I became really interested in this conversation and we started following the data privacy bill more and more because at this point we don't have a comprehensive federal law that is protecting our um our data. So ultimately the law did not pass and partly it didn't pass because it had gotten so weakened. >> Oh >> you know so often I tell my friends like the work I do >> no one's really flat out against the work I do. They just might not work toward it. Right. Very few people are like there should be fewer poor people. You don't get a lot of lobbyists pushing back against the idea that more everybody should be able to afford groceries. But with this data privacy though, I sort of got to look and in my naive way, I think, right, where I've often done this like nonprotested work where these big lobbying firms were coming in, the big tech lobbyists were coming in from out of state really pushing up against this bill and trying to get something passed that would really benefit them and not necessarily the consumer. So ultimately the bill didn't pass as um because it had gotten so weakened that it really wasn't going to protect consumers any longer. >> Well hopefully Charity Clark is out there if you know fighting this fight from an attorney general stance and um it's it's really it's really frightening. Um it really is the whole big brother thing. Well, now I want to I want to use the rest of our show to talk about your work with public assets. I was blown away by your website. Your mission is to improve. And to my viewers, listen to this and go to publicassets.org. Um, and they do have a donate button. So, if you support this work, make a donation. But your your mission is to improve the well-being of ordinary citizens. That's you and me, folks, by advancing policies that state government can enact. What what a what a noble effort. Talk to us about that. >> Yeah. Well, thanks. Um I mean I just first when I hear you say it, I'm like we have a really great team. We [laughter] we have a really great team of smart, thoughtful people that have really um dedicated time and energy to trying to figure out to try to kind of dig to the truth. you know, we talk about like this this uh you we just transitioned from talking about data and big data and um and technology and I think what can get lost in that is sort of you know how the sausage gets made so to speak. And so we really spend time in our shop digging into understanding what each of these um pieces of data mean, how they're collected, what they actually mean for folks, and then spend a lot of time, a lot of our charts look pretty straightforward, but we spend so much time behind the scenes really kind of honing in on on what does this data mean and what and trying to like remove all the noise so people can see the take-home point that will help them understand what's happening in our communities, whether that's about wages and income in the state, whether that's about the cost of housing, um the cost of healthare, right? These are all really big complex systems and we do our best to dig deeply so that we understand how the system is operating, but then can pull a summary together so that people understand how it's impacting them and their daily lives and their family. >> Thank you. So, uh publicassets.org and [clears throat] you're a Vermont organization. >> We are Vermont specific. Yes. >> Specific. Is there are there public assets across the country? >> No, we are in um we have some networks. So, we have like partner organizations in other states that we're connected to. Totally independent, but they they offer just such I hate to not mention them because they offer such a great wealth of information. Right. So, Public Assets also produces publications. >> So, talk to us about some of your current ones and to my viewers again publicass.org visit the website. um talk to us about these public public publications. They're fascinating and they're really good and interesting. >> Thank you. Um every month we do a monthly jobs report. So usually with the exception of when the government shutdown last October, right, the government publishes monthly jobs numbers. And so that's about the labor force, the who how many folks are working, how many people are looking for work in the state, what the unemployment percentage is. Um, and then some other information on the number of jobs that are filled in Vermont and kind of some breakdowns by industry. So, every month that data gets published and it's a lot, right? Like it's a lot of information. So, again, we kind of go through with our fine tooth comb and we think, what's the story? What's really interesting this month? What do people need to know about? Um, and so we look at that data, but we also pay attention to other data that may have been published less um consistently. And so we try to really highlight data points in our job reports that just bring to light what's going on in the economy. Um and so I think our report that most recently um was posted last week was about unionization showing that women are actually more likely to work in unions in Vermont than um than men. And that overall we have a pretty high percentage of workers in Vermont that are in unions. So those monthly jobs reports are usually a pretty quick hit. You know, like I said, we try to create that really straightforward chart with a little bit of information. Um, and then in addition to those, I we talked about our state of working Vermont report that we do annually. And then we have issue briefs as kind of issues come up. Um, one of the things we haven't talked about, which I won't go too far into into depth with because it's a whole different can of worms, but education funding and um, financing is a real deep dive organization. Okay, >> that's my next question actually. Yeah. Yeah. >> Good for you. So many of our young people are leaving the state because of the prohibitive cost of housing, property taxes, healthcare, and I want you to talk to about these folks, but also the cost I mean to to live in Vermont and and the cost of housing and our property taxes. Um because you believe that Vermonters need property tax relief and you do have a current campaign and my property taxes went up just $4,000 in one year. And I'm a retired elder living on a fixed income and but for me it you know I mean it's must be harder for other people I'm sure and talk about that. I mean how can we keep our young here? How can we keep older people in their homes? Our property tax is really outrageous and our health care costs are the highest in the country. But talk about our property taxes. What can we do about that? So, one of the challenges that so many people are facing with property taxes, which is can get confused with with the idea of the tax rate going up or down, is that there's kind of some built-in cliffs to try to give people property tax relief. So, if folks earn under a certain income, they would they pay based on their income versus their property, and there's an adjustment made, but that's only to a point. And then you pay on the value of your home. Mhm. >> And so what's happened is as our um housing market has gotten so escalated in the last few years, we've just seen huge growth. I think I was just looking at the figures before I jumped on. Over a 5year period, we saw home values rise $120,000 over a 5year period. >> And so there's >> And you get taxed on that value. >> You get you get taxed on an adjustment to your home value. Yes. And so there's a c so once your and once your property value goes over a certain threshold which is um $400,000 you no longer get you actually there's a couple different thresholds. They're a little bit confusing. Um so once you get over a certain threshold you no longer get that um aren't are no longer paying on your income but you're paying on the amount of your property. And so what's happening is these cliffs don't automatically get adjusted and they don't get adjusted for inflation and they haven't been adjusted for a very long time. So that's one thing that's really driving the pinch for people is that they're continuing to see housing values increase. But of course that doesn't mean your income has changed and you haven't realized that gain in your housing value. Um and so you know I think we have talked about public assets how important it is to address this just for this reason because it is making taxes unaffordable for folks who are in those situations and we need a way to address the fact that people don't have that liquid income right to pay those property tax bills. So they're leaving people are leaving. They're selling their homes and they're leaving Vermont and the young don't want to be here and we're losing a lot of farms to development because they can't afford to stay in business. And I mean, what about taxing all these people who have second homes and they leave Vermont and move to Florida where they I mean, why can't we create a tax policy that is is a is a fairer tax policy? I mean, in nationally as well as in in Vermont. I mean, why why isn't that happening? I know there's been some interest in Vermont in doing this and there's a number of lawmakers that are talking about this. One of the pieces was actually we didn't have the data. We didn't collect data on the taxes of whether this was a second home or not. And so I believe that this is a piece that the tax department is starting to add into the tax collection data so that they can actually have this information to assess what would this look like, how would this policy work, how could we roll it out. So, I do think that's some good news >> and a lot of those second homes are generating generating income for those folks because they're renting it out in Airbnbs. >> Um, so, um, you have I mean I just want to tell my viewers that when you go on the website, >> you have some, um, see if I can find it here. There's just so much interesting stuff on your website. Well, anyway, I we're coming in the show, so I but I really want you to go I'm really want my viewers to go to publicassets.org org and look at some of these these uh publications and data. It it'll blow your mind because we don't we don't know this stuff and we need to we need to educate ourselves. So, what do you make, Julie, of our current situation in this country regarding the health and well-being of Vermoners? Um, it I mean we're living in a in a world where we have a president who is cutting all of our all of our all of our funding, all of our our researchers are leaving. Um, I mean, what do you make of what's going on right now? What's in your mind? What what roles what do you tell your children, your two boys about what's going on and about the world that they're growing up in from a from a personal from a personal from a personal point of view? Yeah. I think it's sometimes it's easy with kids because it's like be kind, right? If we could all create policy from a place of kindness. >> Yes. >> Um but I think that community and connection feels just so important to me right now in a way that it hasn't before. right? Like we just we need to continue to foster this because we need to figure out shared solutions. And the only way that we can keep doing that is to build community and connections. And I think we lost that muscle a little because of the pandemic. I think we've lost that muscle a little because of technology, which in some ways can connect us. But >> um I encourage people to go have in-person meetings with everyone, you know, if that's an option for them. Um because I think there are a lot of I mean I think what gives me hope is we just have a lot of amazing people in our community who are dedicated and committed to creating a more just and equitable community. And so let's let's pull us all together and and you know let's do it. Let's make some really big changes that that would impact us all in a positive way. We but we do live in a bubble and we tend to go to events. I was just at a Paul Hawin event and everybody in that room at Shelurn Farms was all we were all the same faces, the same people >> and you know we're not reaching the people who necessarily go to the Champlain Fair and I think public assets should have a booth there and be >> Oh, I love that idea. be and be educ I mean we have to go to the places where the people are who don't understand and they're not necessarily in our in our bubble and reach out to them and educate them because they're the ones who are in many many ways are being hurt the most. Um so what do you believe is the biggest economic issue >> facing Vermont today? >> Before I answer that I just want to see we do do some events. So, if people want to go to our events page and see as things get posted, because we are going out to communities talking about federal um policy and what that what those impacts are in Vermont and what that means for Vermonters. So, we'd love to have people come to those. We need to do a better job of getting to the fairs. Uh but also always open. I love emails from folks. love talking to people >> and also getting you to come down like to Bodde Restore in Huntington for a morning coffee when all the people are down there getting their morning coffee and shaking hands and saying hey look here's some information on public assets you know what can we do to what kind of knowledge can we help you [clears throat] to understand >> so >> yeah you know I mean I anyway so what words of wisdom can you give my viewers on how to navigate this new dynamic that we are living the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and the suffering, indignities, and injustices are on full display. I mean, what words of wisdom, I know you talked about community, but from your heart, because I know in your heart when you go to bed at night and you wake up at 3:00 in the morning, what's going on in this country is really, and I'm not going to use any expletives, but this is just really awful stuff. And it's and it's impacting so many people. And um I know that it affects you personally especially when you understand to the depth of what you understand the work that you do with public assets. So in your heart of hearts I mean what's your words of wisdom so that to my viewers and people are going to see this show that you know Julie lol shares with you about how we can navigate through this time without having so many sleepless nights and and crying jags. I mean, I think sometimes you just got to have to let the crying jags out, right? So that they don't get you later because they will if you don't [snorts] um I mean something I I don't recall who had said this to me, but I I felt like this was helpful a little bit is that this is not your fault, right? Like you we are in a system right now where it is rigged, where the incomes are too low, where they're not enough to afford products that are becoming more and more out of reach for us every day, right? Anybody who still drives a gasoline powered car, we know, right? These these things are out of our control. And so to just recognize what's really going on so that you first of all just don't feel like you've done something wrong cuz you haven't. But if you'd like to be part of the solution, you know, call your lawmaker, talk to them, talk to them about your interest in solving these things. I think um what what's something that really continues to give me some hope in Vermont is it is such a small state that talking to your lawmaker really is impactful. you know, if they hear from just four or five constituents, I think that can um can help bring up issues for them and continue to hopefully push the conversation forward. We've Do you do you do alerts like if you're down in the state house uh lobbying for something that fits in with your your mission? Do you do alerts to viewers that we can jump down there and be on committee, sit in on committee or speak at the legislature? I mean, do you who does that? Is that the Vermont um um uh the conservation voters or who who is it? Does youration do that? >> We do not tend to do action alerts. We partner with a number of advocacy organizations and in the last year we were part of the fair share for Vermont campaign which was working on progressive taxation. So those partners, and that's an interesting website to look at, um, you know, those there because you can see a number of partners. Those partners would put out alerts because they actually came pretty close to the House passing a really progressive income tax on earners over $500,000. And so those are the types of things that I think really sway lawmakers when they can hear from >> And what's that website? Um, share fair vt >> share >> fair >> fair share >> fair share fair sharevt.org >> okay >> let me make sure I'm getting that right. This is breaking news. Yes, that's correct. >> Yeah, >> fairsharevt.org and also go to publicassets.org while you're at it on this uh this beautiful September um 3rd. It's the third, right? Yeah, >> it's the third. Well, Julie LOL, let me tell you that I am deeply moved by you and your work and your commitment in your professional and personal life to help lift the lives of Vermoners. I honor you and I thank you for being here and speaking with my viewers and uh keep up the good work and I'm going to keep following what you do. >> Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. >> Thank you so much, Julie. Thank you.