Video summary
The discussion begins with a promotion for the speakers' new documentary, which has recently become available on Netflix following its production between January and September of the previous year. This marks a significant shift from their usual work with the BBC to creating original content for streaming platforms worldwide. The conversation quickly turns to the phenomenon surrounding Clavicula, a figure who gained unexpected popularity after appearing in one segment of the film despite missing out on being part of the main documentary due to timing issues. Both speakers agree that while figures like Clavicula represent avatars within social media games, his specific brand represents something distinct and potentially transformative for the broader "manosphere." The core argument presented is that society may be witnessing a new phase in the evolution of male subcultures, comparable to how feminism has had multiple waves. The speakers identify three historical stages: the first wave centered on Pick-Up Artist (PUA) techniques popularized by Neil Strauss and concepts like negging; this was largely dismantled when the #MeToo movement made such overtly predatory behaviors socially unacceptable due to their unsanitary nature regarding women's safety. This gave way to a second wave characterized by "Red Pill" ideology, which focused heavily on categorizing men into alphas, betas, and cucks while still maintaining an underlying concern with gaining the approval or attention of women. According to the speakers, Clavicula represents a third emerging phase that aligns more closely with the "Black Pill" than previous iterations but differs in its primary motivation. Unlike earlier movements focused on competence, dating strategies, or even romantic disregard for women (as seen in MGTOW), this new iteration is defined by an obsession with male intersexual competition through appearance alone. The focus has shifted from what a man can do to how he looks, utilizing cosmetic surgery, beautification enhancements, and specific clothing choices to achieve a "super masculine" aesthetic that the speakers describe as paradoxically feminized because it prioritizes visual presentation over actual capability or action. A key distinction made in this new phase is its complete detachment from seeking female approval; unlike the Red Pill era which was still fundamentally concerned with women's validation, even if through disregard, Clavicula and similar figures seem indifferent to women entirely. The speakers note that while Andrew Tate utilized books, seminars, podcasts, and YouTube videos as his medium of delivery—often driven by algorithmic forces on platforms like TikTok—the new generation exemplified by live-streaming looksmaxers offers a fluid experience where the individual is simply observed exploring life rather than being taught specific tactics. This lack of a rigid "how-to" message allows figures to remain politically ambiguous, supporting candidates based solely on aesthetics, such as endorsing Gavin Newsom over J.D. Vance because the former was perceived as better looking and the latter resembling a hobbit. The conversation concludes by highlighting how this shift reflects a deeper cultural change where men are engaging in "mogging" competitions that rely entirely on visual metrics rather than traditional markers of masculinity like fighting or professional competence. The speakers suggest that while Clavicula's specific political stunts, such as his surprising endorsement choices, serve to distinguish him from the Red Pill community by appearing amoral and empty, they actually underscore a new era where male identity is constructed almost exclusively through curated appearance. Ultimately, this evolution suggests a departure from seeking connection or status within traditional gender dynamics toward an isolated pursuit of being the most formidable-looking individual possible, regardless of real-world utility or social consequences regarding women.
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I was going to ask whether or not you
have a an intention of of maybe looking
at the world of Lux maxing in future.
Clavicula, as they said like after cuz
we finished filming our documentary,
which by the way is on Netflix. I'm
going to do a brazen plug as of I don't
know if it's It'll be out yes it's out
now. It's out now. It's out now.
>> And and
which is exciting cuz I've made stuff
mainly for the BBC and and and and this
is my first foray as as a Netflix as
maker of a Netflix original. It's it's
crazy to think how many how many like
Well, I don't know how many people are
going to stream it but it's available
worldwide. But
the we filmed it until about late last
year like maybe August September having
started earlier in the year like January
February and then
and then in the following few months. I
remember one of my kids came down and
was like Dad check this out and I it was
some piece of con- Clavicula content.
And I did not think he was going to blow
up the way he did. I just thought oh
well, he's he's
he's kind of very good-looking guy who
he seemed I don't know like he was just
doing what he was doing but and then Ed
Matthews comment was like oh he would
have been in the documentary but he
spawned into the game too late. I just
like to
>> It's true. It's true. But it's kind of
true. It's kind of true. They're all
avatars of some sort of social media
game.
>> the the Clavicula thing is is I think
different. Um and the reason that I
think that and I I I actually think that
we're seeing the what could be if it
takes hold the beginning of sort of the
new phase of the manosphere. So I I had
this I had this conception. I'll see if
you agree with it that the manosphere
kind of had three waves kind of like
feminism. So the first one was pick up
artistry and that was Neil Strauss in
the game. It was negging
and it was
basically completely whitewashed when Me
Too came along because there was no way
that this sort of brazen
we just want to have casual sex with
women use them and discard them thing
could have survived Harvey Weinstein. It
just it straight up couldn't couldn't
have existed anymore. It was too it was
seen as too unsanitary. So then what
comes out next is more red pill and
that's alphas and betas and cucks and
soy boys and you know, that's kind of
the world that you inhabited. And then
it seems to me
that the next one that might be coming
online is actually a disregarding of
women. Like if you listen to what
Clavicula talks about, he's not bothered
about women. It's actually much closer
closer to the black pill than it is to
the red pill. It's not about maybe to
some degree it's about gaining money,
but I don't even hear that as a stated
goal. It's literally about male male
intersexual competition. That's what
mogging is. Right? It's about I am the
most formidable looking, even if I'm not
the most formidable. I'm not seeing
people talking about actually becoming
fighters. Actually becoming sort of hard
men, but just looking like hard men.
It's actually a really feminized way of
becoming super masculine. Right? It's
using
cosmetic surgery, it's using
beautification and enhancement, it's
using different clothing, it's think
spending a lot of time thinking about
sort of the way that you look, not
necessarily what you can do. So it's a
focus on appearance rather than
competence. And um it's not in any way
concerned with women, the approval of
women. You know, you there is a
a world in which you could have said
that the red pill was the romantic pill
because regardless of whether or not it
was particularly typically romantic, it
was still very much concerned with the
approval of women even if it was in
their disregard uh the the the
relationship between women and I don't
think that we're seeing that. I don't
think we're seeing that with
>> That's interesting. Yeah, it's reminding
me a bit of MGTOW, men going their own
way. And and you know, which is all as
you say like the ultimate black pill
where you sort of think, "You know what?
Women, I can't deal with them." You know
what? You was I was also thinking about
because I think in addition to the
message
you have to think about the means of
delivery. And so much of this as I said
earlier with like Iceberg Slim versus
Andrew Tate, the message might be
similar, but the means of delivery
makes it something else. Like I think
Andrew Tate in many respects was a was a
side effect of kind of TikTok algorithm.
You mentioned PUA, the pickup artistry
community, were communicating largely
through books and seminars. Like come to
Las Vegas for a 3-day immersive in how
to pick up women. You think about the
red pill, that was communicated in
podcasts and YouTube.
But whereas this new iteration is a live
streaming phenomenon and and
specifically Clavicula, he's not the
first looksmaxer at all, but he's the
first looksmaxer that live streams
uh
that I'm aware of. And in that live
streaming environment, you're not really
conveying It's not a like a how-to as
such. It's a much more fluid experience
of kind of forming an attachment to
someone and seeing them exploring the
world and getting into scrapes. So he
sort of has the luxury of not really
needing a message. His message seems to
be um other than the fact that if you're
really good looking, you can kind of
hack the system, right? That's There's
not a
You know, he seems politically
ambiguous. He seems to say almost
anything.
I mean, always has it with almost
anything, but you know, his whole thing
like he supports Gavin Newsom over J.D.
Vance because Newsom's better looking
and Vance looks like a hobbit, right?
Subhuman.
>> Which And everyone and every all the red
pill community was kind of a, you know,
weird way a genius move as a way of
distinguishing himself from the red
pill, right? He's like, "I don't really
care about I'm so empty.
I'm so utterly
um
amoral that I'm going to endorse the the
person who embodies a sort of
a kind of California progressive
mentality, right? And everyone was like,
"What the actual?" Like that was the
most
outrageous thing he could do at that
point. You know what I mean?
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[music]
Congratulations for making it to the end
of the clip. Your brain has not been
fried by TikTok. Uh watch the full
episode here.