"Modern Dating Makes People More Insecure" - Matthew Hussey

to the guys that say there are women who say they want vulnerability and then as soon as I actually cry not cute cry they're out I don't think there's someone who is capable of having a real relationship I think that's a woman who says that she wants a real relationship but hasn't grown enough to truly understand men and truly understanding men might be understanding that there are some things you will or won't like and also that there are parts of him that are very much not different from you at all and if you're looking for someone who's bullet proof and strong all the time then there's some growing up to do you are one of the best known dating coaches on the planet how many clients have you worked with well worked with I don't know it must be hundreds of thousands but Millions online I think we've got about 8 million people that follow and half a billion views now on YouTube which is crazy Lots so you mostly work with women if because of that if anybody has an insight into the psychology of females in the modern dating Market that should be you given that you've been doing this for 15 years what are the biggest changes that you have seen in what women want during that time H in what women want I suppose I don't think a lot changes about what people want but I suppose if I were to make a cultural obs obervation it would be it would come up for people that how do I find someone who's either playing at my level or someone who accepts My Level whether it's financially or what I've achieved in my life the work that I do that's something that you know is obviously a modernday thing and I think a lot of people are asking how do I find someone who's not intimidated by where I am in my life what do you mean by that be specific that I earn more potentially as a woman as a woman that I have a high status job not everyone but there's a decent amount of that of people worrying that they're either going to intimidate someone or they're proactively looking for someone that is playing at their level it's hard sometimes to say whether that's because they want they genuinely want someone who's playing at their level or because they're just worried that if they find someone who's not playing at their level that person is going to have an issue with it you know what I mean what's the a women struggling to be attracted to guys that don't have that level of Education don't have that level of employment that they do they are they struggling to date down so to speak from an attraction point of view yes I mean look there has to be some I know that I've spoken to very successful groups of business women who are really playing at a high level yep and sometimes in those circles which by the way I don't think a tip you know like the ultra ultra high achieving like taipe you're in that like you know made millions of dollar like that's a unique group of people but I have experienced being in those circles where one of the first things I get asked is well how do I find someone who is also you know playing at this level and I I always feel like saying at that point isn't surely the reason to achieve all of this is so that you can choose anyone you want not so that you can kind of go now that I'm in this top .5% I need to find someone in that top 5% in a socioeconomic sphere I I always think that's a to me the reason to make money the reason to build something or to just have a job that takes care of you and your family potentially is so that you never need that from another person and then you're free then you can really go who is it I actually want who do I admire who shows up powerfully in my life and I think that you know sometimes I've seen people too narrowly Define what they see as powerful yeah an attraction well you know fundamentally there are uh certain elements of Attraction for men and for women women tends to be status and resources for men it tends to be Youth and and fertility and looks these things aren't completely unmalleable you can change these things you can nudge preferences um but yeah I can see how increasing female achievement would mean that they do have that reduced pool of men so if those are the things with regards to what women want what else has changed what have been the biggest changes from when you've been interacting with your clients the dating landscape generally that have happened from when you started until now look when I started you know 15 years ago the apps weren't a thing dating sites were but it was still there was a kind of almost a you didn't want people to know you were on a dating site you might have been on one but you didn't talk about it that's gone like no one's wor people hate dating apps a lot of the time they're burned out on them they they don't want to necessarily be there but there's not the shame that goes with like I'm on hinge I'm on Tinder I'm on it's just it's like this thing I have to do and I sort of resent having to do it that's how that's a lot of people people's relationship with it so that's changed the relationship with it is not I'm hiding it it's just I don't want to have to do it what I think is newer CU I you know I've thought about this I've thought is there anything new to add to the conversation of what's changed in dating but the looks aspect might have changed never have we been so capable of having the tools to change how we look online on our Instagram on our profiles that is like we there were some people that maybe years ago were really quite Adept at making themselves look their best in person in when they were posting pictures even like oh well both in person and and in their dating profiles but I remember match.com back years ago I don't know if they still say it but they used to say you know I think they had like 18 slots for uploading photos and their whole thing was the more photos you upload the more trust your building and people will really essentially get a good look at you and it's going to result in more matches and the less you have the more it's like people are like wait how do they look and do they I don't know that that holds true anymore because these days someone can have an entire Instagram profile man or woman and you just don't know what they they look like until you meet them in person we have so many tools now to change how we look and that has different implications for one it sort of homogenized looks so if everyone is trying to look if like we've decided that this is what the fashionable look is right now then everyone sort of starts molding or not everyone but a lot of people start molding themselves to look like that so there's a kind of in the same way that globalization meant that every town you showed up to had a a Starbucks and a this and a that and every town started looking the same I feel like that's happened with people online there's like a globalization of looks it also means that we have this standard not just we we have more insecurity about ourselves and our looks because we're looking at everyone else going I don't look like that but it's also created this crazy standard when it comes to what we're looking for and who we're looking for because we are now looking we're like chasing this image that that isn't even that person and I I I find it's true of everything in life now it's like true of Santorini you like Santorini can't compete with Instagram Santorini I saw pictures yesterday on Instagram of New England in the fall now Audrey and I have like we're excited to go to New England in the fall I've been here a long time Audrey's newer to the states and I want to like show her the east coast in the full time and I was about to show her these photos of New England in the fall and then I was like something doesn't look right about these photos there were these pinks that were insane I was like they can't that and then I started looking at the comments and there were just so many people going I live in New England and it is beautiful in the fall but it looks nothing like this none of these pinks I don't know where they've come from yeah and so when you look at that you go oh that's a real shame because if you're going to New England and now you're kind of looking for this version of New England that doesn't exist and you so you're sort of deflated or disappointed even though New England is stunning in the fall that's a that's a that's a bad situation to be in I feel like there's a kind of a correction we have to do with ourselves these days especially if we live a lot online for reality versus what we're seeing otherwise we're going to go we're not just going to go around insecure that we don't live up to something we're going to go around super entitled that someone else doesn't live up to this impossible thing obviously do you think that online dating profiles Instagram has skewed expectations of what people think that they should get in a relationship I think so I think so you seeing this with your clients I don't know I I don't know if I have a lot of anecdotal evidence for that explicitly but I just think the more it can't not be true on some level the the more we all see because it's true on things outside of Romance the more we see people driving crazy cars and they look like they're on vacation all the time and we don't know when they work cuz they always seem to be by a pool somewhere sipping a cocktail the more you think there must be something wrong with your life that you know I why aren't I getting that much vacation or why am I not enjoying that life what's and I think there must be so we feel entitled to that life where we're not working really hard to get there and whatever because no one showing that I there has to be a romantic equivalent to that what do you think that men misunderstand about what women want right now h if men I suppose the more men are chasing these ideas of flashiness or you know they see Instagram accounts that are like always some guy posing by a car or a plane or some amazing lifestyle whatever I I kind of think the more people just become indoctrinated that with that idea that this must these are symbols of what's attractive and it's true for a group of people that there are there are some people that that's true for so that validates it and especially when you're seeing those guys with women that are beautiful and that might be considered like the most desirable people then you're thinking oh that must be what's attractive but I think that becomes this becomes a sort of rabbit hole you can go down where you spend a life impressing or trying to impress living to impress someone that is going to like ultimately make you incredibly unhappy and I think that's Pro that is the disconnect I think that happens for a lot of guys it's a bit like the vulnerability conversation that when a guy I've been vulnerable in my life before with the wrong people and it backfired I've been vulnerable where I've stressed in a relationship and insecurity and I'm thinking this is you know this is me being real this is me being raw this is me saying something that's upset me or made me jealous or made me insecure and I've gone into that thinking this is good this is the kind of relationship that I'm told we should be having having a vulnerable one an honest one and I've had it really backfire in my life where it was quite clear that the person saw me as less attractive after having said the thing than they did before and at the time I wasn't in my stage of evolution as a man today at the time it just made me go never again I am never being that honest again that was too much she didn't want that level of honesty she wanted a cute version of vulnerability an endearing version of kind of crying in in the movie you know version of vulnerability but not like I'm actually insecure about something but I learned the wrong lesson that day because it was wrong for that person it wasn't they weren't ready for that they weren't they they were still in a a mindset of not looking for kind of a complete person and that was that was them and I wasn't I I wasn't strong enough in my own frame at the time to be like oh that means this person is not right for me instead I went oh my God I'm hideous deficient yeah and I'll never I'll never say that stuff again but that these days when I look at my relationship now one of the things I I'm most grateful for is that I really can be me I truly the things that I thought no that's too shameful now that's too that's like you know that's definitely on the opposite end of masculine strong guy like those things are celebrated as much as the rest of me and that has been like a that has been a life-changing thing for me so I think that guys don't just get it wrong from what's portrayed they get it wrong from experiences they've had with people that they should never have ended up with or with someone that wasn't ready in their life someone is is showing vulnerability unattractive is men showing vulnerability to women unattractive how do men how do women perceive this balance of confidence and vulnerability well I think it's attractive to the right women I truly believe that I think that no one wants there's a distinction to be made V there's the vulnerability of I have something that I struggle with and I'm being open with you about that that's vulnerability telling someone 10 times a day like but do you think this and do you think that and I that's not that ceases to be vulnerability that's just what I think of as like dumping neediness yeah well it's just it's it's a vul it's a kind of mutation cuz vulnerability is like a form of openness I'm letting you in I'm letting you into my mind I'm letting you into the things that I struggle with I'm letting you into the battles that I fight but when we're kind of dumping on someone we're making them responsible for solving it for us and that ceases to be vulnerability that's kind of an abdication of responsibility I actually think it's an incredibly attractive thing for anyone in a relationship man or woman to be like I strug with this and it's something that I'm working on because then you're you're taking ownership of it it may be from something you didn't create it might be from a childhood wound it might be from trauma you suffered growing up it might be from any of those things it might not be your fault that you have that thought pattern or that wiring but there's a different you can say something's not my fault and still say I'm going to own it and I'm going to work on dealing with this because it's mine to deal with when you do that in a relationship I think that's a very powerful thing but I think people confuse the two it's it can't be accept me at any cost it can't be I have I can make your life miserable with all of the things that I'm struggling with all the time and if you don't tolerate that the problem is you we'll get back to talking to Matthew in one second but first I need to tell you I need to tell 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modern wisdom do you find your clients saying that they wish that men opened up more or less on average do you think more 100% more there's a real yearning for men to talk more to be more open to be more vulnerable to actually communicate more and what about to the men who say I've heard stories like your one where a woman says that they love the idea of me opening up and the second that they do they see me as the beat a male underling that I've always feared that they might do it maybe confirms my concerns that I have about being insufficient therefore I'm going to lock this away yeah or I say these things and they think I'm awful you know there's things that I'm going to say to you that I don't normally say because I think they they're a part of my past that I don't like and you're going to now think I'm villainous you know there's that too and I there there's that's 100% going to happen with some people 100% they are going to be people you come up against who you tell them something from your past and they go you're awful who who doesn't have something that they look back on and go I really was a [ __ ] to someone I really was mean to someone I really I regret that deeply I should never have done this I should never have done that but what we want is to be able to meet someone in life who can make space for those parts of us and to the guys that say there a women who say they want vulnerability and then as soon as I actually cry not cute cry they're out I I don't think there's someone who is capable of having a real relationship I don't think that's I think that's a woman who says that she wants a real relationship but is hasn't grown enough to truly understand men and truly understanding men might be understanding that there is some things you will or won't like and also that there are parts of him that are very much not different from you at all and and if you're looking for someone who's bulletproof and strong all the time then there's some growing up to do well there will be men out there that are like that that bulletproof yeah there are men out there I have a number of friends that range from totally emotional to completely unemotional and the ones some of them that are completely unemotional I believe that that's actually how they are that there is a a a degree of of um ease with their emotions they just don't seem to hold on to things things don't seem to affect them in as deep of a way as as some of my other friends so I suppose that there is a market for each different type of person if you're a guy who is super emotional if you're are one who has vulnerabilities issues from your past you need to work on finding a partner who is going to be able to accept that well that yeah I mean that's in that's kind of the whole the whole game of dating and relationships is what kind of person you actually want the whatever Society is telling you is attractive or whatever your friends are telling you is attractive you can you can find someone who makes you incredibly happy and your friends are like really I don't get it you know like I don't really and that if unless you have a strong sense of self and of what you're looking for that could throw you off that could make you go oh yeah you're right I guess this person isn't great but five minutes ago you thought they were awesome because they were right for you and okay fine if there's someone that's if there's a guy that's kind of like that won't show emotion and doesn't need to indulge emotions and whatever that's okay but if you're a woman dating that guy you better be damn sure that you don't want the kind of relationship that has a lot of emotional intimacy you that that's really what it comes down to when you talk about a guy like that I go that's a guy I've never be close friends with because I'm not like that I'm like a you know I'm a crier I'm someone who I cry at everything weeper yeah I am and but you know and but that's who I am and so I I like being all if you look at the pattern of all of my male friendships they're all people that we can sit together one-on-one and have really meaningful open convers vulnerable conversations yeah so if you're a woman looking for that I as a man I know I'm looking for that if you're a woman looking for that then you have to you have to look at that from the beginning and say have I seen any evidence in the first three weeks of the fact that I'm talking with someone who can relate on that level or am I or is it just someone who's hot yeah and successful and charismatic or whatever and I've said on the eligible bachelor test this person ticks every box cuz that's a big thing that there's a big thing around oh they're super eligible and then you have to step back and go what does that mean when you say they're eligible a lot of the time when someone says someone's eligible they mean that they're single that they're age appropriate that they are successful or at the very least are successful in their world or in whatever they do and um that they're attractive that's what eligible means none of those things barring being able to be take care of oneself none of those things have any bearing on how great the relationship's going to be and yet people in early dating invest based on these markers of Eligibility and it blinds them to all of these things they don't have like for example emotional vulnerability or communication what are the most common traits that people find attractive or optimize for on the frontend that don't have predictive power at making a relationship work long term in your opinion hm M I won't say it has no predictive power but chemistry is wildly overrated what's chemistry well that's the point it's not easy to put your finger on but for people will describe it as it's uh you know this feeling I get when I'm with them this this attraction this spark this connection this sometimes when people are talking about chemistry they're talking about animal attraction other times when people talk about chemistry they're talking about this just deep sense of feeling really connected to someone but the point is those things that are really hard to describe they can be describing a lot of different things and and chemistry may be necessary it might be a box you need to tick in other words I have a sexual attraction to this person there a box you need to tick if you want real a long-term romantic relationship but it's not a good indicator of whether it's going anywhere whether someone has the same intentions as you whether someone has the same vision as you whether they'd make a great partner and all of those things are the big things the attraction or let's say attention cuz when you have chemistry you get someone's attention attention is not intention and that is a big mistake that people make we have the most amazing time together we're so connected you when we're together Sparks are flying that says nothing about that person's intention with you what are they actually looking for what's their goal here and intention even when there's aligned intentions intention doesn't equal investment you can have someone who says all the right things and I really want to be with you and but they can't back it up when it comes to actually being consistent when it comes to uh progressing things with you when it comes to making any kind of sacrifice when it comes to exclusivity they can't deliver and that we make so many mistakes in early dating by thinking that we have all three of those things when actually all we have is someone's attention and usually for sporadic moments what are the most common complaints that you're hearing from the women that you coach about the men that they're dating what are the issues that they're coming up against most frequently um I suppose they're not ready they don't want to commit I want something meaningful I want something that's actually going to go somewhere and this person is just kind of stringing me along or they can't seem to they a lot of people wouldn't frame it like this person's stringing me along because that kind of that's a hard thing to admit but they may say this person keep saying they're not ready and they're just not quite there yet and they're not sure and so I think the indecisiveness of men and the inability to actually commit is there got to be the top one I would say well that would run counter a little bit to a lot of what you hear about on the internet which would be that most men are struggling to find a date that they can't get attention from women that women are actually looking for attention from the top man as much as possible and in my experience this you know I've stood on the front door of a thousand events and met a million people across my entire life you know 18 to 21 year old guys and girls aren't exactly known for their maturity especially not in the UK especially not when they're drunk and yet in my experience most of the girls even at that age were looking for maybe it wasn't a particularly M mature form of commitment but they were looking for commitment they're looking for a guy that they could hold hands with and go away to a little summer vacation with and do Christmas markets in December it seems to me that a lot of the a lot of the concerns that guys have around what women want and the issues that they're facing don't seem to match up massively what are the concerns that guys have I think that the big ones are that they're not going to be found attractive that they're going to be seen as creepy if they approach them that if they try to do online dating that they're not going to be responded to if they try to approach them in the real world that they're going to be seen as some me tooo Predator that she is going to trade up because there is an endless hierarchy of guys that could fly her out to Dubai there's some shake on the other side of Instagram that's going to dhem her and put her on a five star flight to to take her out to Dubai and uh you know this is this is the world that we live in now that girls have more opportunities than ever before because it's been afforded by social media which means that the top few guys are going to eat and everybody else is going to starve I sympathize with guys on all of those things I I feel I really it touches me when you say it because I I think that there is it's a really hard thing for anyone to feel invisible and and what's more to feel like even if I'm briefly visible I will become invisible again the moment this person comes across someone with more and when I hear that I come to two immediate conclusions one is choose well choose someone as a man who truly is you know one of the phrases Audrey used all the time when we were uh dating and getting to know each other she kept saying as a philosophy for her life I just believe and chasing the right things that you will always be kind of not punished but life will always like give you its comeuppence if you chase the wrong things and you'll always have to end up at some point circling back to the right thing it's just when you just decide to do it and I've come to look at that as like one of my key montras for life I look at all the time am I chasing the right thing or the wrong thing here and I think that a lot of guys are struggling because they're chasing the wrong thing um they themselves you know it's there is an entitlement among a lot of guys that I I should have this and it we the funny thing about dating is that we end up accusing each other of exactly the thing that we're doing and we really hate the other side for doing it but it is exactly what we're doing it's one Community saying it's disgraceful how shallow they are that I have to be a certain height for them to even pay attention to me and meanwhile they're going why don't I have the top 1% of women you're going what are you talking about it's literally you just did exactly the same thing you just said there was a top 1% and you're not interested in the rest that there is a hypoc on both sides there is a hypocrisy there that I really struggle with and I think the more we can get to a point where we go what are the countercultural compromises that I am willing to make in order to actually live a happy life not a life that everyone else says is so impressive not a life where I finally go look I made it I'm dating the ch leader a life that's actually making you happy because you've you've selected for the right things what countercultural compromises will you have to make for that we talked earlier about cuz I know for me I'm all about looking at that on both sides we talked earlier about women who might say well I want to date someone who's at my level and I want to go well let's redefine what you class as your level do you mean your level for kindness your level for generosity your level for empathy your level for being loyal or do you mean your level of income because the things I said first will make you far happier this thing doesn't really matter but you've told yourself it matters now could you make a compromise that goes against the grain because that that is what if if we go online and we look at all of these communities is everyone arguing to me there from the outside because I don't I'm not deep in these things but I know I hear it's like I hear secondhand all the time so you can always correct me if I'm getting it wrong on what people are saying out there but when I look at it I feel like so much debate is being had at the macro level of here's how men are here's how women are and here are all the things we can't stand about the cultural norm right now and when I look at that I'm like this feels to me like in if it was the business equivalent it's like I want to start a sandwich shop and I spend all my time watching the news and the economy and the macro statistics and saying this is why I shouldn't start a sandwich shop this is why you can't start a sandwich shop today look at it I I'm watching the news all day and it's terrible you know the banking system is going to collapse soon you know that right no point starting a sandwich shop now or constantly arguing about politics and who's in government oh it's the Democrat oh it's not business friendly oh you don't want to be in California it's not business friendly I'm not going to start a business in California like there's there's that mindset and I have always one of the reasons that I've always loved studying things from a place of curiosity and that's what you do you you're FAS you're a curious person who's fascinated by how things work and why things are happening so I get the that part I understand but when people are complaining constantly about the macro of it all and that becomes their excuse I always just think do you realize that your life changes by what you do in the micro if you're a woman and you're saying men are always intimidated by me I say in the macro you're 100% right that there is an awful lot of men if you're a high earner if you're high status if you've done a lot in your life o there's going to be a lot of men who are intimidated by you that's 100% true so I would never want to invalidate that but on the micro if you're telling me that men are always intimidated by you something's going wrong well who's the common denominator between all of these men right now you could say men are the the gender is the common denominator is men men have a problem with this none of my female friends have a problem with this men have a problem with this but but I look at that and I go there is a way to either you're going for a certain kind of guy all the time or you're going in with that as your kind of power and that as your value and that's the thing you talk about all the time no one wants to go out with a rich person who talks about how much money they have no one no one wants go out with a celebrity who talks about how famous they are you you want to go out with someone who has a conversation with you and gets to know you and is interested in you and is impressed by you right that's one of the most attractive things in the world is you go on a like people should go on a date asking themselves how could I be impressed by this person and if you do that and there was a a writer friend of mine who used to WR I think he wrote for The Hollywood Reporter or someone but he used to say when he would interview celebrities the goal for himself so that he could write a good piece was always to go cuz he didn't care he'd been doing it so long it was for him it was like just another person coming through the door with a movie it long past the point of having any novelty for him but he would say could by the end of this interview could I get to a place of feeling grateful for having been here and he knew that the key to accessing that gratitude was find feeling like by the end of the time with that person they had taught him something they had given him some kind of Life perspective or told him their story in a way that made him feel like wow I'm I'm actually really grateful I got to sit with this person he said if I could achieve that gratitude I knew that the article I would write would convey that I knew it would be a good piece I think that we could approach dating that way but so many people go on a date and it's like here's what's impressive about me here's why here's here's why you should feel a little intimidated by me instead of going how can I how can I show I'm impressed by you or how can I show that there's something about you that just wow that's really interesting or that I have a unique understanding of You by the end of the day that's super attractive it makes someone feel seen that taking go back to our example if you're someone who let's say it's real you have a job that intimidates people you also have immense Leverage in being able to reverse that by the way that you are on a date with someone and so that to me is always for me on the front lines of dating where I'm constantly helping people to actually go out there and find love I always want to say to them forget the news look at what's what are the things you could do to transform your dating life and it's it's wild how much you can do to transform your dating life and it doesn't matter what's going on out there there's a phrase that a doctor friend of mine used when it came to diseases in hospitals he said statistics don't matter to the individual if if you've if you get a one in a thousand disease it doesn't matter to you that it's one in a thousand you're you have the disease but I actually from a dating perspective like to put a positive spin on that that regardless of how Grim things seem out there the statistic doesn't matter to the individual if you as an individual learn how to be more proactive in your love life you learn how to be a beautiful presence on a date you learn how to attract someone those statistics are not going to be the primary thing affecting your love life we'll get back to talking to Matthew in one minute but first I need to tell you about the product I've used every single day for 3 years now to help support my health and my nutrition and that's ag1 by athletic greens even with the best of intentions I don't get enough fruit and vegetables in my diet I don't know if anybody does and ag1 helps to fill those nut nutritional gaps and just make me feel more confident that every single day I'm covering all of my bases ag1 is a life-changing nutritional habit it's got 75 vitamins minerals and Whole Food Sauced ingredients including a multivitamin multi-mineral pre and probiotic green superfood blend and more that all work together to fill the nutritional gaps in your diet it is the most comprehensive all-in-one daily powder that I've ever tried I always wondered why guys like Tim Ferris and Andrew hubman and Joe Rogan were talking about it and after trying pretty much every other drink on the market I can see why it is the best tasting and most comprehensive that I've ever found also there is a 90-day money back guarantee so you can buy it and try it for 89 days and if you do not like it they will give you your money back head to athletic greens.com wisdom to get a Year's free supply of vitamin D five free travel packs and more that's athletic greens.com [Music] wisdom remember as well that at the moment the same news the same macro weather report is being absorbed by a lot of other people that are in the dating market so this is a mental model I learned from David Goggins and he was saying it's so easy to be great nowadays because most people are weak and Dana White said something similar which was he advises his sons if you are even remotely a Savage you will run these people over because the bar is set so low so think about the fact that there are uh some challenging times and some turbulence in the dating Market which causes a lot of people to have a sense of um they abandon any personal agency that they have I can't affect this I'm at the mercy of the weather and it's going to blow me around okay reverse that and think the bar is set so low because almost everybody else believes this so if I put a tiny nanogram of effort into what I do I will separate myself out from the pack it's the same thing with guys that are struggling with attraction I'm like if you go to the gym three times a week for a year you are probably in the top percentile of all men on the planet with regards to Fitness 180 minutes a week for you like the bar is set so low for this stuff and it is easy for you to separate yourself out from the pack if that's the case so you can use the concerns you can use that as a litness test to think well okay those are the things to avoid doing I know that if I do something that's even marginally different to that if I do show up differently on a date if I do take care of my appearance if I do try and be kind and compassionate because apparently women say that that's something that they're that they're struggling for at the moment let's stress test this for myself and another thing is that because people have retreated into online dating so much and so few people are going out and actually having interactions in the real world where's any evidence to stress test any of the ideas that you've learned from the stuff that you've heard on the internet like the the most egregious Stories the ones that are terrifying and make you worried about the dating Market quite rightly are the ones that get 100,000 up votes on Reddit because they're insane they're egregious and incredible and terrifying okay well has that ever happened in your life do you ever know anyone that it's happened to apart from that person that's on Reddit that person doesn't count like anyone that you know personally and there will be some people that stories come from somewhere some people will know that guy not many people I know lots and lots and lots of people very few of them have encountered any of the nightmare scenarios that are spoken about but people use the stories that they hear on the internet as representative for what they can expect in the real world of dating yeah that's very dangerous I you know when when you talk about that kind of that whole group of guys that feel invisible feel overlooked I I always think what what game is someone playing like what's the what's the outcome if the outcome is I want to sleep with as many people as possible and I want to be the life and soul of the party I want to be the person that has the most animal attraction you then you're going to struggle cuz not everyone gets to have that yep but if your goal is I actually want to meet someone who's awesome I want to meet someone I can have an amazing life with I want to meet someone I can build with it doesn't actually matter how many people find you attractive it matters that you find someone who thinks you're awesome now if you come from a place where you're so busy focused on how shallow some women are or how much some women will only date up or will only date across or what if you're focused on that that is going to dictate your whole life cuz you're going to be miserable you're going to be resentful you're going to be bitter If instead you go you know what there are people for whom someone showing I someone showing up with confidence with kindness with a boldness because you don't have to be being bold doesn't mean having money doesn't mean being successful outwardly being bold can just be I'm bold in life you're someone who has a level of Courage you're you're someone who has a really beautiful level of loyalty I know there are guys who are going to listen to everything I'm saying right now and they're going to roll their eyes cuz they're going to be like try dating try actually going out there and dating if you're me there will be those people but but I actually believe that I really believe that I really believe that you know there are people in my company that if they left tomorrow might be able to go and get paid more somewhere I can't stop that I can't stop a bigger more attractive company coming along and going we're going to pay you double and give you more this and more that I can't stop I can't stop it and I can't compete with it I cannot I can't be the sexiest company in the world but I just in my bones believe that the people that I'm supposed to work with long term are the people that see how much I love them how loyal I am to them how much I actually care about them that I mean it when I say something that when I say I'm serious about a long-term relationship with them I mean it I know they could go to another company tomorrow and that person promises them the world and then 6 months later they're kicked out because that that's how that company is like yeah we'll give you the world but we're also going to get rid of you if if you don't live up to every single one of these I know that so I can't play the game of being the sexiest company in the world but I can play the game of attracting people with the values that that I have that they will value you and the people that I want working for me long ter term are the people that whose values actually match with mine dating is no different you you may not be apple in the dating world I'm not Apple in the business world but your values they they really with the right people they will be the thing that makes someone go yeah of course I could be with a guy with more money of course I could be with a guy who who's who's taller of course I could be what I'd be insane to give that up for what I get with you and there will be some guys who listen to that and go oh so I'm the consolation because they'd rather be with this toall that blah that's insecurity talking cuz no one has everything no one and that's you coming from the frame of reference that that guy's height matters more than the values you have there you coming from the frame of reference that that guy's Money Matters more than the values you have you've bought into that and that's why it bothers you that's why you feel like you're the consolation prize it's cuz you believe it so you have to stop believing that and I'm not talking this isn't like I want people to understand this I'm not talking about some soft like believe in yourself mindset I'm really saying that this to me is the real stuff this is this to me is like you're tall inside like you have a tall personality you have tall values when someone feels that from you and they feel that that energy is real it's crazy how much for so many people what they thought they cared about yesterday starts to actually disintegrate so what if you started going through life instead of being the person that confirms everyone's suspicions that those things matter more what if you were the person that made them disintegrate because meeting you was like this like change someone's Paradigm on what's actually important and that is a thing that anyone can do anyone but you have to actually live by those values that I'm talking about and you might have to make peace with playing a longer game because it can take time for people to realize how important those things are someone tall heart and handsome or whatever doesn't sneak up on you they walk through the door and a lot of people go okay that's this seems like a someone I'd want to talk to but some of the things I'm talking about they they sneak up on you but when they land it can change someone's world I I have in my own life started to in the last few years really just let go of you know whatever the kind of comparisons that I might have made in the past or the thing for myself where I thought I didn't live up to that or I wasn't this I wasn't I'm an introvert I'm not life and soul of the party I'm life and soul when I'm standing on stage because I'm good at public speaking but put me in a party I'm no longer life and soul I'm never I never have been I'm never going to be it's not who I am there was a time when that bothered me I was like I should probably learn some more social skills that make me the life and soul of the party I want to be that guy who can like at a certain point in my life I said I don't care I just don't care and and for the kind of person that wants me to be that for me to be in their lives that's not my per that really isn't my it's not my friend it's not my male friend and I started to learn that I'm appreciated for other things things that I may be never registered were important or things I never thought were important about me I started to realize oh those that's it those are the things let me focus on that because spending all this time focusing on you know is a better looking guy going to walk in the room is someone with more going to walk in the room is someone you can play that game forever and there always will be by the way there'll always be a Chris Williamson who shows up with bigger biceps you know it's like it it's just the way it is but when you're when your worth is not rooted in that it is the most liberating thing in the world I wonder how much of this is related to age I kind of get the sense that a lot of the rules that the internet works off get aged out and that people mature out of them and they learn a lot of lessons so I need to make a little bit of an admission because for the last 18 months or so I have been parting some data from GSS that said between 2008 and 2018 the number of men between 18 and 30 that haven't had sex in the last year tripled from 8% to 28% and this is true this was true GSS data has continued to come out last week I found the 2021 data from 2018 28% of men hadn't had sex in the last year in 2022 uh 2021 that had dropped down to 177% of men the number of women that hadn't had sex in the last year aged 18 to 30 was 28% in 2021 now this changes the story as far as I can see about what's going on because the presumption is if young men aren't having sex this is because they're not being chosen men tend to be the sexual protagonists women tend to be the sexual Gatekeepers therefore if men aren't having sex it's because they want it but they can't get it if women aren't having sex presumably it's because they can get it but maybe they don't want it so what's going on there why do you think it could be the case that both young men and young women are struggling to have sex but particularly the young women 28% of 18 to 30y old women didn't have sex during 2021 do you have a theory I'm just curious my current working theory for a lot of this stuff is that there's generalized uh generalized risk aversion disorder grad uh which is something I've completely made up uh but that a world where Netflix Amazon Prime Uber Eats door Dash social media video games porn for men specifically has turned down the amount of risk and discomfort that most people face in their everyday lives that means that stepping out of the house to maybe go to a party well you've got the competition of the new season of succession on HBO to compete with you know it's a pretty high bar that's quite a to compete [ __ ] good season I don't want to compete with succession no me neither so okay well first off I'm probably going to leave the house less secondly if I do go to a party I'm going to be on my phone more which makes me less approachable thirdly if I am there I don't have the social skills to be interpersonally interesting and leave the cues the very subtle cues that you need to in order to be able to get people to come and speak to you fourthly while you're there if you do begin to flirt it's an incredibly delicate dance that you've got to do it's push and pull it's tease it's it's leaving uh sort of wh full Intrigue and playing and all that stuff is a very delicate thing to do that require it's very skillful requires an awful lot of skill to do none of these things are being developed at the moment and the reason that I could see that women particularly especially in 2021 to put my evolutionary psychologist's hat on I would say uh increased pathology uh uh pathogen aversion so women's disussed threshold is lower than men's because they are more more fra fragile uh from a physicality standpoint um which means that they tend to be more easily disgusted especially by the presence of disease and there I didn't know that is that real that's thing of course of course yeah yeah yeah that women I mean think about it like you know how many girls get grossed out by films compared with guys like if you just took 100 guys and 100 girls you would presume that more girls would get grossed out by the same thing was because men are more disgusting perhaps that could also be it yeah I didn't consider that um but just I think that the there's definitely a little bit of Hangover from uh from Co huh one of the other sex so all of the stuff that I mentioned there about you know the the social media the the introversion this sort of time that you spend sat on the couch watching the TV none of that would explain a sex difference the pathogen thing would do I wonder how much of a post me too world girls are becoming increasingly worried about being intimate with a guy I wonder whether we're facing a bit of an intimacy crisis whether girls fire alarms are are maybe being triggered unnecessarily in in some regards there are a lot of stories from all over the world about what happens if you end up being alone with a guy and it's concerning and so on and so forth uh which might just cause girls to check out of the dating Market generally um it's possible I'm contributing to the to the problem why why what are you doing that's creeping women out no I think no I mean I'm joking cuz I'm A Drop in the Ocean but I you know I don't think this is true but I'd almost like to believe that more women are being honest with themselves about what they are actually looking for and when they are presented with something that doesn't represent that uh and and that's not to say you know in the age group we're talking about there'll be plenty of women who are just having fun and doing their thing but but you know for for women looking for a relationship there's a lot of sex had by people looking for a relationship that isn't going anywhere and I like I like to believe that there's an evolution happening where people are saying no to things that don't represent any actual I don't think that's true by the way but I like it would be nice to think that a lot more people are saying you know what you don't want the same thing as me so I'm not going to keep sleeping with you just because you're charismatic right even though ultimately I'm going to end up hurt at the end of this okay so um if the bar is raised for what women expect from a partner especially if it's a casual partner especially if it's when they're young this would cause them to not just decide to do it because well I'm lonely or because well he's good-looking or because well whatever yeah if they were I and I don't think that's true but I if I if if people said to themselves you know what I'm not going to I'm going to focus on my North Star what I want right now is like I made a video recently about someone I forget what the age Gap was but it was a woman in her 30s who met a guy in like 10 years younger he's in his early 20s and this person was like I really want a family I want marriage I you know but this guy's amazing and I just remember thinking you've completely lost touch with your North Star you the chances of now I don't care how much of an old head this person has on his shoulders he's 21 there's the chances of this person blossoming into a long-term committed relationship of marriage and kids is minuscule so this just feels like you're betraying your own goals and I and that happens a lot that is one of the most common things that happens is people lowering their standards for something that feels good in the moment but does absolutely doesn't align with their goals and a lot of the time people are lying to themselves about the fact that it doesn't align with their goals because they're just happy to have something that feels good right now and one of the problems of of dating is that especially if you haven't had anyone come along in a while that has excited you when someone does come along but they're in the complete wrong package y you're just you become the most bias judge in the world you're like ah but you know and you start figuring out way he'd love to do the dishes he'd love to stay at home make a fantastic dad meanwhile he's never once suggested that he even likes kids yeah he actively pushes them into open traffic um so I mean the bottom line man is that with that data and this is the first time that I've spoken about it on the show and it's a big deal to to reverse that trend from you know guys being the ones that were having less sex 18 to 30 to girls um 2022 will be fascinating I think we'll be out the other the side of the co stuff but the bottom line is that that's what the GSS data says and it's pretty reliable and everybody every single person was totally happy to accept when it was guys that were on the receiving end of this sexlessness crisis but it seems like you know in 2021 83% of guys aged 18 to 30 did have sex at some point during that year so we need to concede okay the something is going on something has changed and it's it's women that are being averse to this um I I I really don't know what's going on but one of the things that we've spoken about so much has been online dating somewhere around between 40 and 60% of relationships now begin online what are you hearing from women about their experiences with online dating and messaging and guys demeanor and what they're getting right and wrong I think that you could you you could caricature things a little and say that there's an enormous number of guys who go to dating apps for sex and that it's less likely that on mass and it depends on age group obviously um but at an age where people tend to start looking for relationships and women start to really seriously think about why I do actually really want a relationship I'm not saying men don't get to the same point but I believe that there's more guys who are on dating apps just going I'm just here because I want to hook up and that that I think results in a lot of just people are just completely misaligned when they're talking in those places there's a lot of guys there's a lot of bad behavior from guys who are hiding behind the screen we know that and that's because there able to do things that wouldn't they would never dare do out there in the world how's that affecting women how's that affecting their behavior their view of men relation I think it skews their perception of what guys are actually like because they're getting they're getting that from a a proport a decent proportion of guys and it's making them think well there are no there are no decent guys like this is this is just horrendous but there are decent guys and they may be they may those guys unfortunately May some of them at least will feel completely overlooked in those places but there's an awful lot of women I think that Come Away with a really tarnished view of what men are like and I also think like some for some guys I mean maybe for all but what they do in that environment when they feel like no one is there's no repercussions I feel like that's indicative of how they actually feel about women or how they you know what that's indicative of their deeper relationship with women because or or in ignorance it could just be an ignorance too they're not educated they've never been taught this is this is what it's like to be on the receiving end of this like this is what that experience actually is I don't think most men actually have any bearing on that when they're doing it and it's not all men but the men that do it I think they're they're not connected to the effects of that okay so step into the guys who are struggling with dating online what should they be doing if they want to be effective at convincing a girl that they are in this for the right reasons that they are a guy of value and virtue what should they be doing when they're texting making an attractive dating profile communicating backward and forward I mean for me I think the ultimate thing is that there's a sense of decisiveness when it comes to progression you know instead of being the guy that texts back and forth with someone for two weeks and is's playing chicken with like who's going to ask who to do something and actually meet in real life be the person who actually advances it I'm not saying in ways that suddenly make us seem desperate but you know you be the person that suggests getting on the phone or meeting up for a quick coffee like that that's a pretty that shows intent it shows what's a good first date idea some of the favorite ones I like anything where you are not sitting kind of facing each other I don't I think roller coaster yeah I I remember saying this at an event and just I go I go you know a good date is like Park bench style like anywhere where you can sort of face out into the world and turn to each other when you want to talk and I just heard a voice in the crowd go Sushi it was like the guy had just like he conect he really got it yeah he was like he just really connected with that's where that's what I'm going to do next sushi it really cracked me up I but but you know anything that I like if you're going to go to a restaurant on a date sit at the bar it's a much better thing that going to a table is awkward sitting across from each other and you're staring at each other the whole time go sit at the bar because then you can ex you can chat with the bartender you can turn and say something but you don't have to position your entire body towards someone but it what it allows to happen is a more natural kind of you know if you look at attraction and seduction it if we start facing away from each other we become aware of each other like a sort of side eye AR aware of you and then eventually we turn into each other and I think that a date can almost kind of you've you've already got the we know each other part unless you're just approaching someone out there in the world but a date where you can start pointed at something and the more Rapport you build and the more comfort you build you kind of end up turning inwards that's a pretty good day so walking is a good date like walking somewhere with someone I think as a guy you have to you have to also bear in mind that for women's safety is a big thing so being somewhere where they feel like where they actually feel safe with you so not walking in the dark alleyway no no dark Alleyways so a zero dark alleyway first date policy okay fine cool yeah those are those are and and also not don't be afraid to have a short date you know if you can lower the stakes for someone going into a date 30 minute walk in a coffee yeah like even even you know I have to be in this part of town later in the day but I'm you know I'm over here do you want to meet up for a coffee like that just says to someone I don't have to worry I don't have to think about whether I want to spend an entire evening with this person right now the more you can lower the stakes you only have to think of regular social interactions if you make a new friend it's you kind of want to build up to things because it's hard to hang out with a new friend it it takes effort and it's not you're kind of you know you don't have that Comfort where you're just like let's just hang out on the sofa for a few hours and just chill like that but if you say you know let's let's grab a coffee let's grab a juice whatever it's and that there's an out you're more likely to have half an hour with a new friend and that half hour can be the making of a new friendship but you got to get you know as as Sean AER would put it in The Happiness Advantage you have to lower the activation energy required and that can apply for dating too what have you seen with regards to online dating profiles good ones bad ones oh man I'm so not close to dating profiles but for me show don't tell is an important role in dating profiles you know that whenever we say we're something we're tell if I say I'm like I'm funny I'm not showing you I'm I'm not saying anything that's funny I'm just telling you I'm funny or or when we're just saying what we like listing things we want in a person like I want someone who's funny that's it's it's it becomes vanilla very quickly cuz sort of isn't everybody I think that real estate is spaced to actually show something about your personality or who the the way that you think there was a great dating profile that I once came across and this woman said it the prompt was something like what's your biggest disappointment and she said that my future kids will never get the experience of walking around Blockbuster Video and choosing a movie for the night I always thought it was such a great thing to say because that firstly she was showing like that was endearing it was like a it showed a nice part of her personality she also managed to say that she wanted kids in a completely relaxed way not don't message me if you don't want to be serious like no casual you know when people put like no casual hookups it's like you don't need to say that you you can just somewhat that intention of yours will announce itself as you start to talk to someone if they behave badly you don't need to say it up front you you don't want an Axe Murderer either but you're not saying that why are you not saying that because you've been burned in the past by someone who just wanted a casual hookup with you so now all you're putting in someone's mind is that youve you're frustrated by the amount of casual hookups that you've had to have in the past because you wanted more and they didn't like that's not that's not what you want to put in someone's mind is the things you're frustrated with in dating so what she did was she she just very elegantly said yeah I want a family my kids are in my future but I don't read that and go it because there's no Edge to it it's the same I had a a course years ago and there were back years ago when I started I actually used to send people out for the night women out for the night and have them practice things I don't do that anymore there's too many people in if there's 2,000 people in an event we can't send have them but back when it was small groups we actually like encouraged people go out for the evening and try this stuff and it was really interesting there were two single moms who came in the next day and one of them said how do I communicate to someone that I am a single mom it was a lot of like it felt heavy to her she saw it as baggage there was another story where a woman stood up and she goes so I was talking to this guy and I I liked him so I was started initially like I immediately started flirting with him and the first thing I said when I spoke to him was your chin dimple is really adorable it's not quite as adorable as my daughter's cheek dimples but is pretty adorable she had managed in the first line to communicate that she was a mom and have it be flirtatious whereas someone else in the room was going how do I communicate that I'm a single mother like she had like Darth Vader waiting at home when a guy was going to come over that to me is fascinating and I think dating profiles are a great place they're a great kind of revealer of what's our current mindset how playful are we how lightly can we take ourselves how lightly can we take our own baggage like these are a lot can be communicated in a few words that way we'll get back to talking to Matthew in one minute but first I need to tell you about manscaped manscaped lawn mower 4.0 is the best ball and body hair trimmer ever created it's got 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more and more women not having children is this something that you're noticing women saying that they don't intend on having families that are in the groups that you work with I don't see that but I have to assume there's a that has to be true on some level if you take a society where it's less there's I won't say it's not frowned upon at all because there's a kind of no matter how far we've come there's always going to be families and Societies in which women have to deal with the fact that something must be wrong with you if you don't want to have kids something must be wrong with you if that's not in your path or that hasn't happened for you they're always going to face that from somewhere but to a far l Les extent than before and if it's to a far lesser extent than before then naturally you're going to have people who never wanted kids or don't feel like they want to be they that's not their path who are going to feel more comfortable actually following that so I have no doubt that number must have risen but you know a the a huge proportion of of my audience are people who would like to find a relationship and part of what they would part of what they want and their dream is is to find someone that they love to have kids with like that's the I think probably I don't have data on this but I I would imagine that because women are pushing it later which can either be which is a kind of combination of pursuing careers societal expectations not being the same or being looser and and even just the availability ility of egg freezing and other methods that there's a kind of feeling of I can delay this but I know from firsthand experience with not only women but on my podcast um love life we had two fertility doctors who came on and talked about this that there are a lot of people who just kind of there's a almost a feeling of oh I Manana man I'll get to it and but so the we know that in life when we just decide we're now going to do something life doesn't always cooperate and if we're leaving the time until later if women especially are leaving the time till later where they suddenly decide like okay now I'm going to do this and they haven't met someone yet and they've got to go through three more guys that don't pan out to get to the one that does that that can I've seen I've seen a lot a lot a lot of people end up breathing as a result of that and by the way the same is true of a lot of men who assume mistakenly that they're good I'm good I can wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and then it comes down to it and their sperm count is too low or you know uh the what's the I don't know what the medical term is for slow swimmers but you know it's the they they're not they're not in a place of fertility where it's their sperm is viable in the way that they thought it would be they thought oh I'm I'm the done deal part of this equation or they have more complications because they waited a long time you know which is the real seems that seems to reflect the data that I've seen so a very very large chunk of women who make it to adulthood break through the fertility window and don't have kids didn't intend to not have kids around about eight out of 10 women who end up being childless that didn't intend right to be childless round about 10% of women physiologically uncapable capable round about 10% of women intended to not have kids which leaves four out of five that didn't and the word grief which is what you used is precisely correct that they grieve for families that they never had and the support groups jod day uh who runs one of the biggest in the world is coming on the show in a couple of weeks time and uh it's it's it's wild and one of the concerns that I do have at the moment is this current Trend that we're seeing of um demonizing motherhood I would say in some regard that um you know the newly acquired Liberation that women have had to be able to go and achieve a career and get education and employment status and all of this stuff is is phenomenal but to see that as if you choose to be a mother that's you settling you're choosing to be a second class citizen in some regard and you know for every culture there is a counterculture movement for every patriarchal stay in the kitchen you're not supposed to go and go to university college and get a career there is now a movement I mean Chelsea Handler I don't know whether you've seen the videos that she's been putting out the trending online there a video of like what it's like to be a woman in her 50s who doesn't have a family and for Chelsea Handler she very well may be the right person she may have made the complete right life choice she talks about how she's going to get on Rea find a guy for tonight smoke weed masturbate fall back asleep fly to Paris buy a Quant and I'm like is this really the [ __ ] future that most women aspire to have masturbation and croissant yeah whilst blazed out of your mind she did a clapback video a couple of days ago where she was pouring an entire bottle of Gray Goose into what looked like a massive neutri bullet flask I was thinking to myself like you're an adult infant like you're like you're the same of the Manchild that you would accuse men of being and my concern is that given the fact that we know the largest analysis that's ever been done said eight out of 10 women who end up not having kids didn't intend to not have kids were already fighting against slow life strategy which is what you mentioned sort of pushing that fertility window out we're already making it it's it's difficult to you may need to cycle through a number of Partners before you can find the right person to end up settling down and having kids with I don't disagree that some dystopian [ __ ] handmaid's tailes scenario where you're forcing women into the bedroom so that they can pump out babies that's wrong but given the fact that eight out of 10 women say that they wanted to have kids and couldn't it's also really wrong to tell women that they shouldn't be having kids or that having kids is settling or that they become a a domestic prostitute if they choose to do that and this is a trend that is really really picking up steam there's a Tik Tok called girl with a list have you seen this no a girl who printed out a list of 3 50 reasons as to why she didn't want to have kids and it goes all the way from can't wear cute heels anymore to baby is literally a parasite inside of me to all manner of like and it's got millions and millions and millions of tags and plays on Tik Tok and I'm like I don't disagree that this is interesting content that's going to grab attentions and headlines but the real world outcome of this in 15 years time when the 28-year-old girls that are watching this a bit older is concerning to me what I hear in all of this is it's a kind of version of what men go through in a different way where if we're not careful we're we're sold the life that we should have and if you take you know we talked about the percentage of guys that feel overlooked if you take the opposite end of the spectrum the guys that have an enormous amount of choice many of them will be sold culturally on this idea that if you can you should you should sleep with as many people as possible you should live it up you should you know just don't don't settle anytime soon delay delay delay and that you have to be a pretty strong person to go I don't think that's the answer just because I can it doesn't mean I should and I'm not even saying that from a moral or ethical place I'm for myself selfishly just because I can it doesn't mean that's going to make me happy and women will you know they already do find themselves in a place where they're having to really get in touch with what they want and try to shut out the noise and I I find myself I find myself very conflicted on this because there's nothing I there's nothing I hate more than the idea of a woman who doesn't have the independence herself to be able to walk away because I've seen that and I've seen the utter destruction of lives where women don't have enough financial Independence or or the ability to continue with a job or a business and so that that man has something he's holding over her the whole time and it is the Mandate for abuse those relationships um so on one hand I the idea of you know kind of saying motherhood should be celebrated I I agree with but I know if I had a daughter I would want her to never be in a position where she needed a man financially where she was always going to be okay on her own because that's power past that point that's when you have to start getting really honest with yourself and saying do I need more if I've already got my Independence and now I can choose for love and I can stay for love instead of staying out of fear it is more necessary and everyone faces that at some point in their life I mean guys face that all the time it's a it's getting in touch with yourself and going what do I actually want in my life you could just keep going and going and going and going you have the potential you have the ability you have have everything you have got a winning hand right you could just keep going it's an interesting question we all have to ask at some point which is what does what's good for me what kind of Life do I actually want because of course I could keep going more is all available always available but more time isn't and and I think that's when I look at when I look at women in motherhood I just think it's trying to quiet the noise going what is it I actually want with my life I've had to do that me and Audrey have had to really think about what do we want with our lives like what's what kind of Life are we looking for how much does that involve us working what's going to make us happier at the end of the day I it's no secret like when I thought I for most of my life when I thought about kids I was like sweating just oh my God this is terrifying I don't know like I've got friends of mine who from the age of 22 male friends of mine who were like I'm I want kids I know it I want to be I spoke to Matthew mccon a week ago and he was like I always knew my biggest dream was to be a dad I cannot relate but when Audie and I sit down we're like we look at all of it and and we go yeah like this feels right feels right to do this I don't know when like we'll figure that out that's between us but this feels like something this feels like it's really important to us even if it cost us in other ways and it will cost us in other ways but those those are like really adult calculations and I I think everyone has to make them and that demonization of people is a is a bad thing of course I'd love to understand your framework of how deep lasting attraction Works say that we've managed to get through all of the hurdles that we've spoken about so far and that somebody wants to get into a relationship which has deep blasting attraction have you got a way to break the very large Behemoth that is being attracted to somebody into component parts well I always said that attraction is perceived uh attraction is is chemistry plus perceived Value Plus perceived challenge plus connection right so physical you can exchange physical attraction for chemistry but you know physical attraction uh perceived value perceived uh Challenge and connection I haven't said it in a while but I I really think those four things are they're pretty reliable as the components for attraction you need some physical attraction you this person needs to bring value to your life and that can come in a number of ways so that's perceived value value and perceived is an important word because if you can be valuable we all are but if you don't know how to Market your value then no one's going to see it if you don't know how to put forward your best foot people are not going to know how great you are it's no one's job to like excavate how great you are you have to be able to actually show someone so perceived value perceived challenge is making sure that value isn't free that there actually is a price to pay for that value why is that important because we don't value what we don't have to invest in if something if if you went on a first date and based on her picture or her pictures and you thought she was so gorgeous you showed up with a brand new car for her on the first date and said I bought you a car it would freak her out she'd think this person's mental and the reason she'd think that is because she had done nothing to earn that amount of value and that's when we say someone seems overeager or desperate what we're really saying is that they're giving an unearned amount of value they are showing up for me in ways that it's not appropriate to show up for me given how much I'm giving to them and that's the class classic people pleaser I'm I'm suddenly doing all of falling over myself to try to serve this person who I really isn't doing anything to earn that there's not an equivalent exchange in value so perceived perceived challenge makes us value someone's value because we realize that they have standards around it the and having standards around your value is essential otherwise you you'd have no time in life you'd have no energy you're just bleeding out everywhere all the time and when someone realizes you're bleeding out for them exclusively because they're just so hot or they're so charismatic or they're so something our value goes down in their eyes because we go oh they must not this person must not have a lot of value because look what they're doing for me I'm not doing that for them I'm not doing the equivalent I haven't even thought about them in the last two weeks but look at what they're doing for me that's crazy you know so we low now we lower their value in our eyes so we at least question it so that's perceived Challenge and connection is okay we have animal attraction but do we actually have a shared world viw do we you know is there a compatibility here uh that is going to make us last so the question is how do you maintain all of those things over time and that's what you know Esther perel has obviously written great books about this she talks about the difference between love and desire desire is love is the coming together of two people desire exists in the space between two people so if you are just constantly like this and there's never a space between you then that mystery that fuels desire is no longer allowed to it doesn't have the oxygen to breathe and that's the to me that's the great that is the great challenge of a long-term relationship I actually think that we we kind of pathologize familiarity like it's a that's the curse is being familiarity breeds contempt but familiarity if it's done right can breed enormous richness you can really get to like you anyone who's really had a successful marriage will say that there are just getting one of the great Joys has been year after year getting to know even more about their partner their unique facets that other people don't see don't know about they've built a bond that is extraordinary now that alone won't give you the the animal desire that is also needed for a long-term sexual relationship but it will give you a level of connection with someone that is just so weighty that the idea of giving it up is it the equation always is weighted on the side of staying as far as physical attraction goes I think that there is a on one it's like on one hand you have to do the things that allow you to maintain it on some level if you know what that's different for every couple and it certainly isn't limited to Cosmos articles on get this new try this new sex position as a way of like it's it's a lot more nuanced than that you know maintaining attraction on that level or desire on that level could be that we haven't we haven't been out to an event with each other in the last three months or or all of covid and we go out to an event together and I actually watch you go over and talk to other people and I get to observe you again and I observe the way other people receive you and how you make other people laugh or how you're looked at by other people and I go oh yeah she's she's a sexy person in the world I'd forgotten living at home for a year and a half with so you know like that that's what happened to a lot of people and I think the Inver the other side of that is to say I need to Rob myself of a kind of this expectation that I have that everything is supposed to stay the same and that you have to remind yourself of how much being single sucked a long time ago like that there was a time when you were single and you maybe could sleep around or did sleep around and it probably didn't live up to your expectations either like that wasn't some unbelievable you know you you were living this unbelievable life and even if you were even if you were a rock star and you were living this extraordinary life of sleeping with a different person every other night I I I haven't met many people especially ones that feel anything like me who talk tell me Happy tales about that like after a while they either get anxious because it's like I just feel weird and I'm going to get someone pregnant this is going to happen that's going to they're just freaked out or they're in a place where it's just boring because they go oh yeah it's just another body ultimately that's all this ends up being it's there's no Nana on the other side of this so I think we glor the longer we get away from something like that the more we glorify it and the more we think oh remember that time like Grass Is Always Greener yeah and it wasn't even that green then like it probably wasn't you know maybe you had a hey day but I guarantee you that Heyday had a shelf life and at least with this situation there's you can point to unbelievable things that you like I'm a I'm not someone who says everyone should be in a relationship but I am positive in my life of how much better my life is in my relationship like how much it brings to me that that equation is one decisively every single time by what I get out of being in this relationship and I think when people lose connection to that that's when they that's when they get in trouble so it's as much about connecting to that as well how can you stay grateful for the things that a relationship is bringing you because any of us especially taipe people who are all about optimization and what's the next thing we are really good at getting to a level that at one point was like our dream or not even conceivable know 15-year-old Chris wouldn't conceive I bet of where you are today but you're probably also a great normalizer and if you're a great normalizer that is not a you that's a useful skill in business because you just you never get too impressed with yourself and you just keep going in a relationship that's a really dangerous part of of people like that and I count myself as one of them because you there can be this done I did that part you know so what's the what's the optimization from here but you the optimization now is a vision that you build together it's not like I I'm optimizing still for the person I think people optimize too long for the person actually talking about talking about that from a personal standpoint and your growth now millions and millions of clients that you've worked with in this illustrious career of internet work and exposure and plays and all the rest of it how are you personally avoiding getting caught up in external metrics of success and what have you learned about where sort of genuine happiness and success fulfillment comes from I I my like the word that I just keep coming back to in my life now is Simplicity and me and my partner say it all the time which just like Simplicity like what what's going to complicate our life for very little gain and what's going to simplify in a way that just keeps reducing our life to this Justus of where all the good stuff is and for me the good stuff is my relationships with my family my relationship with Audrey it's doing work that I feel passionate about instead of work that just gets me ahead that's a big one what's get you ahead you know there was a time when for me it was about survival it was about like I need to feel secure cuz I don't feel secure you know fin yeah when I was growing up it we were not secure it was a there was you know it was a difficult situation at times so for me I so much of my life was about trying to feel safe and and it's a hard transition to make actually between trying to feel safe and then now trying to feel fulfilled because it's that engine if you're not careful just keeps going and going and going but I these days I just I I want to do work that I'm really really really passionate about I want to be connected to it it's one of the reasons why I like in my work now if you look at a lot of my videos in the last year or two they have a dating rapper on them so much of it is about trauma so much of it is about overcoming the the wiring that we have that makes us unhappy or makes us anxious or makes us stressed or makes us continually go for the wrong people or stay in toxic situations I I talk about that because not because it's popular I talk about it because I feel it's really really important and helping people in their mental health that way is important to me so I for me that's that's what's important and I'm not going to say I don't get drawn in to the metrics because that's a constant on I have to have a very firm compass that I connect to every morning that reminds me and connects me to this is this is the stuff that actually matters because otherwise that part of me that that masochist he will take over and make all of our Lives miserable because I I can't that part of me that stresses and is anxious and is feeling like Rome's burning even when Rome hasn't been burning for a while that part of me is not just bad for me it's like not I'm not good company when I'm like that I'm not good to the people I love I'm not I'm not like a calming presence for people I'm not someone who I'm not able to access the best parts of me the most generous parts of me because I'm just it's a loop of like fear and anxiety and all of that and that's been a really it's been a big thing in my life and I've had to really work on that for myself I continue to work on that for myself because it disconnects me from everything that's actually important and living in LA or Austin or any of these places not good for it because you're around people who are doing awesome things and there's always someone who's doing more and there's always someone who's eclipsed whatever you've done and you you it takes a lot to to be like that doesn't takes a lot to leave the party where someone just told you something awesome they're doing and go yeah I don't want to do that how do you stop that external comparison game I well I've I'm fortunate to be in a place in my life where I've it's not worked enough times that I I realized oh it's not if I was doing that it wouldn't change anything it wouldn't make me any happier do you mean that you've seen a mountain that you thought was good to Summit got to the top of it and realized yeah you know I I came I when I first came to La 10 years ago I came for a TV show called Ready For Love and it was a huge deal huge TV show executive produced by Eva Longoria it was like this was going to be the show and it got canceled after three episodes was that your fault I think I was the best part of the show I salvaged it it was going to be one episode I but it got cancelled and I a year of my life that was spent working on this thing that was supposed to be huge just kind of and there were all these people that wanted to know me for the time that it was big and you know when it was like everyone was coming out managers and agents and this and that and I really got the full I got the full Hollywood experience you're so important and then no one's picking up the phone I like I went through that whole thing in a in a space of a year and a half and it was it was great it was like the best thing that could have happened to me at 25 when when that happened it was so great thank God it wasn't a hit I because it wouldn't have been good for me it absolutely wouldn't have been good for me like I might have blown my life up like I I just couldn't trust myself at 25 to handle that and as I look back now and I'm just like but when I when I was up there it didn't make any difference it was just like it was it was exhilarating in certain moments just like anything is that's you know has that drug of effect and and then it's nothing it's being on love Island that I did the first season first person through the doors of season 1 and it was 10 times bigger season two and then 10 times bigger than that season 3 and then 10 times even bigger than that season 4 so I basically did a a full production fully broadcast dress rehearsal for all of the remaining ones that were actually successful but I'm so grateful for the fact that I came off and there was 5,000 more followers than when I went on no one about the show nobody gave a [ __ ] no one gave a [ __ ] about it because if it if IID managed to find success doing reality TV I would have ended up being pigeonholed into a life of that is how you got success replicate that formula to achieve more but because it wasn't something that I generated it was something that had been given to me like make no mistake for every single person out there that thinks that going on reality TV is the answer to to their problems you are basically like the Mocking Bird the mocking J [ __ ] like that's what you're hoping for you're hoping to be plucked out of the lottery and gifted status on the top of a a hill but it's not you you're not manifesting you forward you're being squeezed into the shape that is prefabricated because the show knows what it needs it TV2 knows what they need out of this show the same as your thing when you came to LA and the same as whatever else it is if it's not completely generated by you and that's not to say that people can't go on these shows and enact themselves forward and be interesting and whatever but for the most part you're being very heavily squeezed into a odd shape that you have to fill and if you've been taught through life experience oh well that's how you get success not rinsing and repeating that is going to be very very difficult not to do so I I am I couldn't be more grateful that my season of Love Island was a failure yeah well because but what you're talking about is that you in life you can do things that give you these spikes but those spikes they correct themselves right you it's over and then you're kind of back to your life and being you and even if you back to your life but with more money or more something you're still you you're still waking up every morning going what do I do today and that's real life real life isn't you won the lottery and now your whole life is different forever no real life is you still have to wake up tomorrow and decide what to do and if you I think one of the to me at least one of the great secrets is if you can just find something that that when you really connect to it you realize I could do this for a long time like this is I could keep doing this I think what I do now and I don't mean the intensity of it because I could say I could stand to lose a couple of projects if I'm honest but what I do now in terms of every week on YouTube I make a video and I have courses and live Retreats and all of that and that's an unbelievable part of my world but just reaching people and and saying things that make them feel better and help them that I could just do forever I I I know that would be a life well- lived for me and I think if you can find something like that forget the spikes forget the Spikes play the long game with that there's this guy this is embarrassing but there's this guy called I'm a bit of a like Disney geek didn't see that coming I I grew up like when the first time I went to one of the Disney parks I was like just blown away by it and it's just never left me I the man I am today with all of my diverse interests I still one of my favorite things to do is to go and walk around the parks there's this guy that his name is his YouTube name is Mr Morrow and he just walks around the Disney parks and blog and like video blogs about his experience going around the parks and I spoke to him on the phone because he was such an example to me of someone who just he figured out something he really loved and he was working at Denny's fine establishment there's some good items fine establishment I didn't know that Denny's was uncool and I I started going wanting to go there for dinner with my friends and when I ever I said can we go Denny's they looked at me like i' suggested that we go and kill somebody I lived for a long time in LA opposite the IHOP on Sunset Boulevard which is a particular L sort of it's right in the middle of Hollywood so it's quite a bougie IHOP no no no there's a lot of characters it's it's like a bit of a like you know it's just a bit grimy and I lived right there and I used to go to that IHOP every morning for breakfast at like 5:00 a.m. when I was like going to because I didn't want to work in my little apartment so I used to go to Starbucks right after and work and just eat in that IHOP so I can slum it with you at Denny's anytime you like but he used to work at Denny's and then he started filming these videos just going around the parks and I spoke to him on the phone cuz I was like at one point I really wanted him to come and speak at one of my events cuz I was like you've just figured it out I can tell you figured something out you figured out something you love and now you do it for a living and you're not you just are so grateful all the time you don't strike me as someone who's just looking for more more more and I spoke to him on the phone and he just was the most he was just the sweetest guy and he said to me I just he was there was no there was no one there to see it this conversation he just said if I could just do this every day and just keep doing this and I've got a couple of friends here in Florida that you know I've made and I walk around the parks and I film and people really like them he said I would just be so happy and that I I I I wed up when he said it I literally got goosebumps and welded up because there was something about it was so pure and I just thought that he's figured it out he's figured something maybe he hasn't figured all of life out but he's figured something out something that most people never figure out in their lifetimes what can I just keep doing that if this is as good as it gets I'm good that's pretty special I've heard you say in the past that you felt like you were on the outside of your own life looking in yeah yeah I felt like that for a while I I I think I hit like 27 and I just I didn't I couldn't connect I like struggle I was trying to figure out what's what's going on like why am I not I know this is all great but I don't feel connected to it I just I felt very disconnected I didn't use that word at the time but I look back now and I was just unhappy just hadn't I hadn't I had done you know there's as you well know there's levels in life and depending on your circumstances growing up or at school or whatever level one for you might be survive or do something that means you don't have to fear and so you kill yourself trying to do something that means you don't have to fear anymore or you can take care of people that you love and that was it for me like from early on it was just like take care of people like the people who are the people I love let me take care of them let me take let me make it so that I'm secure they're secure and let's and and I killed myself like doing that I said no to so much in my 20s and and and one of the things I said no to that I didn't really realize was just uh I I suppose true introspection like really under I didn't I was just too it's not like I kept saying there's all this bad stuff that I need to process or like let me save that till later I didn't I just didn't I didn't even connect to that so when I started not feeling right I didn't know why I just it was just I just freaked out I was just scared cuz I thought oh why what is going on why am I numb like why am I not I'm helping a lot of people I know I'm you know people were so grateful for the work that I was doing I was I was independent I was able to take care of people I love it should have been awesome and it and it just wasn't um I just had a I had a lot of things I had a lot of work that I hadn't done that I didn't even realize was work to be done for me the idea of like you know the idea of therapy was some that was for someone else it's for a different kind of person I'm killing it you know like everything's going I work hard I have no problem with ambition I'm like driving forward in my life I'm helping people I'm doing what I love like it didn't it just felt like oh that's a thing other people do and I've been very very humbled by by life you know over the last 8 years in just realizing there's just there's there's always another level there's always something you've kind of not figured out yet or not worked out and I praise I applaud great therapists not every therapist is a great therapist but I the ones who are really good you know I applaud them because that work that they do with people if you can it's a you know the hardest thing in the world is when you have someone in your life that you love and you see them unhappy or you see them disconnected and you're like you you really need to go and do this work was that the difference then from being on the outside of your own life to actually feeling it was mostly therapy I think it was a number of things I think it it was therapy but it took my life it took sort of things happening that affected me immensely or it took an immense amount of pain for me to do that like it wasn't something I was going to do just because like oh let's just add this into the portfolio I was always I was always someone who took courses I was always someone who did self-development I was always like that was just me but it was all taipe stuff you know what I mean was all like optimization and getting ahead and learning it was never like going inwards and and that's because I was so focused on that feeling of getting out of danger all the time of like let me just get somewhere secure let me just get somewhere where I can control things where we have enough money where we have enough the I the inward work didn't feel like it had any return didn't feel like what am I going to like I'm going to sit in therapy for hours and hours and hours like what's the what's the return on that and I think that that happens to a lot of people there's no obvious Roi on that so it's like I I'll save that like I could do that later which is why in some ways for some people it's actually I want to be careful how I say this but it's unfortunate in a way that if they never really get punched in the face by life because if you don't hit a certain pain threshold and you're the kind of person that thinks you've always got it together and you can always function which is how I was I was like highly functioning if something doesn't bring you to your knees then you you may never make that decision to do that work and you may always live in a disconnected way that deprives you of what how rich and how beautiful life can really be I love life and I always have loved life but there were times where I couldn't connect to that love and and so you know for me it was just realizing oh I'm not something's not right and and I'm not going to be able to deal with this unless I do something about it and it forced me to slow down it forced me to say that hour that I take away from work today to go and sit in someone's office and do this is more important than anything else was there a single moment that brought you to that I mean multiple you know the having that realization that I didn't feel like truly having that realization like that that was a moment I I dealt with chronic physical pain for a long time which is still a part of my life it's not like it's fully eliminated but it's I had a I had a long time dealing with chronic pain in my head that I'm pretty convinced was arose out of not dealing with stuff and not dealing with stress and not like I'm pretty I'm not someone who used to be a big believer in you you I think spent enough time with me to hear I'm a pretty rational person I I need logic to make sense for me to get on board I I but I I've had enough experiences now to realize oh you can really do a number on yourself if you don't figure certain things out if something's like creating tension in you if something's if you're not processing something or dealing with something then you like your life your body something will find a way Aaron Alexander is nodding his head along to this at the moment right right it something will happen and for me me it was a throbbing pain in my head that just never went away and and uh and other symptoms too which I I won't mention just because it's the kind of thing that people once you say it everyone wants to give you a thing you should do you know you should drink celery juice you should take ice baths you should do this you should do acupuncture you should like I've been on that entire Journey for years so it's not I don't need suggestions but um but it but it was so it was so bad it was so bad this wasn't I'm not talking like it it kind of intruded on my life it took over my life and it robbed me of of my joy it really couldn't figure out how am I ever going to be happy again like I really I even said at one point to the therapist that I was seeing I came in one day and I was like I I've come to the conclusion that for as long as this pain exists I'm never going to be happy because I can't sleep properly I can't experience any of the good stuff in my life I can't focus it is just there 24/7 and it I've come to the realization that I may never be able to be happy again so I'm just going to live for other people I'm going to live for my my family I'm going to live for the people that I'm helping I'm going to live like and I he just looked at me and he went that is it's not he he the first sentence he said is that is Hallmark depression but he said it's not it's a circumstantial depression it's arising out of chronic physical pain but what you just said is is real depression and and that that's language I would never have used about myself I didn't relate to anxiety or depression like they weren't words in my vocabulary and yet I came to realize in my life I've always had anxiety and depression was something I was experiencing then in a really serious way and when something is when something's taking over your life to the point where you go it's not like I was having suicidal ideation but when some when you kind of have a thought that I don't know how I'm going to do this I don't know how I'm going to if this stays this way for the next 50 years of my life I don't know what I'm going to do and that that was terrifying for me like truly terrifying and it felt to me like becoming an adult in a weird way I'd been an adult for a long time and I'd have to I'd had to handle my my stuff my own life for a long time I'd had to rely on myself for a long time but but it felt like a time in my life where it was like the truest realization that no one is coming no my family would look at me in so much pain and feeling so depressed and not know how what do I do this person I love so much is hurting so badly and they're like a zombie what what do I do and when the people that love you the most are throwing their hands up because they're so helpless to be able to to help you you you realize like oh my God no one's coming this is and and it was my first I tried everything and it was my first like brush with something where my type A I can't fix this I don't I've always been able to outwork any problem and this is not working on this one and it I went through all this dat I went through Panic like sheer Panic to you know grief to my life is over to I went through all of that and I'm I'm not talking six months I'm talking like for for for years this went on and I just functioned really really well through it all um but the more I worked on my own peace like truly worked on my own peace the more it started to sort of like ease up it was almost like like tension went away and it started to ease up and it's gotten to a place now where I'm like you understand I couldn't have had this conversation with you before this this is not something I would have said to anyone that that this would have made great content to talk about this for the years that it was going on it would have been amazing talk about this vulnerable it I couldn't speak about it to anyone publicly the only people that I talked to about it were my friends and family because I couldn't trust that information in the world and people I couldn't trust anyone in the street coming up to me talking to me about it and that I would be able to handle that so me talking about it now is like a I still don't want everyone coming and talking to me about it really you know it still there's a part of me that's like I don't even want to talk about this because I don't want it to be a topic of conversation um it's a very personal thing to me but but I'm able to talk about it because I've I've managed to find a completely different level of Peace in my life and what I've learned through this whole process in life is that everything that we're struggling with has a re a very you know my pain my physical pain has a very real component to it right there's a there's a portion of it that's just physiological it sucks but my emotional relationship ship with that was making it a thousand times worse and once I was I had to run that I had to like truly go through that Journey which is the for me the most I suppose I'm not a person who uses the word spiritual very much but it was the most spiritual journey of my life to have to learn to come to terms with that and make peace and coexist with it and build a relationship with it that was positive instead of negative but but the more I did it the more I realized that 80% could be I could figure it out and if I could figure it out if I could bring it down to like a six or a five or a four then I could have a different life with it and and I think that's true of all of our stuff is that we we encounter problems in life and we think we think the problem is this like immovable object and it might be it literally might be something you can't do anything about but people don't understand what leverage they have with what the 80% is their relationship their emotional relationship with that problem and now teaching that for me teaching that to other people on things that they're struggling with is one of the most it's one of the things that brings me the most Joy on my Retreats where people come and spend six days with me it's like the it drives me because I know people's lives can be so much better than their experience ing right now by changing the story that they tell themselves about the things that are happening to them changing the story is absolutely one of them a different story will give you a different emotional relationship with it having a a different a different mindset around it even just understanding that you can modulate something like I when I when I started to learn I can modulate this like I can if I can bring this to from a 9 to a seven I can I can actually enjoy my day more I can live more if I could get a peaceful five minutes maybe I can make that 10 or an hour even I didn't think sometimes I'd go I didn't think about my pain for the last half hour why was that what was I doing what happened was I enjoying myself was I distracted did I have a bigger problem like what just I was study it and and what I came to learn is everything everything changes everything we have things in our life that we think I'll never get over this it'll never change whether it's heartbreak physical condition uh someone dies something happens in your business you I'll never get over this Everything Changes it modulates and you don't know how you'll feel about this thing in 5 years and you have we have to be very careful because at my worst I honestly was like checked out of life I was like I can't do this and part of what made it part of what turned it from a already painful experience to one that was intolerable was when I told myself it'll be this way forever then then I was like I I freaked it's panic and panic you can't live in for for too long your body can't take your mind can't take it so you you like it's like you short circuit and Panic just goes to numbness just disconnection for me one of the greatest lessons of my life is that you just you just don't know how this is going to change and if it doesn't change you you don't know yet you're not an expert on how your relationship with it is going to change and either way that can produce a completely different life for you and I know this is pro probably off subject for what we were talking about today but I just think for any anyone out there who's really struggling right now if that can offer not just hope but because hope can like hope itself can be really miserable right when you keep hoping that it's going to get better and it doesn't If instead you just sort of settle in like if it sucks right now whatever part of life sucks if you just settle in and just strap in and just go okay it sucks right now but I don't know how much it's going to suck in 5 years it might I might feel differently about this this might change or I might change the way I see it the Everything Changes if you can get to if you can understand that then you suddenly have a kind of mental formula for just for just strapping in going let just strap in for now in Jiu-Jitsu uh there was a when I started out I was rolling for like 3 minutes and then I couldn't breathe right and I remember my professor saying to me you know you know some of the guys when we're here after you we'll roll for an hour non-stop we like set a timer for an hour and we just roll for an hour for this like marathon and I was like what are you what are you talking about how do you how's that even possible and he said you know when when you realize that it's going to go on for a whole hour you kind of just you startop breathing differently CU you just realized well I can't keep going like this like I just have to settle in and suddenly when you settle in it it's a different experience then when I'm going for three minutes and I'm like like tense tense tense 100% you you settle in and I think that's a pretty good it's a pretty good way of approaching life in general if you're anxious in early dating and you go are they going to text me back are they going to tell yourself if this is going to work out I'm going to be with this person for the next 60 years do I want to breathe like this the whole time this the energy I want to have the whole time could I do this for 60 years all right then settle in Matthew hussy ladies and gentlemen if people want to check out the stuff that you do online where should they go well I suppose um there's three places if someone wants something that's just easy and free every week my YouTube channel uh you can find me there on my Instagram or Facebook if you're a woman looking for dating advice I have a link called your dating solution where you can literally input your challenge and it will give you my best solution for what you're going through that's at your dating solution.com and if you're a man or a woman and you're looking for a bigger journey and bigger life change not just your love life but your whole psychology and getting the most out of your life I have a virtual Retreat that's coming up uh that's a 3 Day event for men and women and they can find all of the information about that at MH virtual retreat.com mat I really appreciate you man I appreciate the fact that you've done the work I think that it is very cool to see someone go through this trajectory over time of coming out here of achieving success of failing of success the uh darker side of what's going on whilst publicly still having it all together and privately going through all of this turmoil I think it's a very compelling story I really appreciate the work that you do I'm looking forward to seeing what you do next thanks for having me man I appreciate it and I appreciate the work you do as well your curiosity is really inspiring you and I I think have probably had a lot of similar influences over time I you know the people that you and I I think in our 20s started to gravitate too the Hitchins and the harrises and the mes you know we I think you and I have been inspired by a lot of similar people and it's uh it's fun to watch your mind work here's to the next 10 years cheers man thank you very much for tuning in if you enjoyed that then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks