Michelle Khare: How to Overcome Fear & Live an Exceptional Life

I'm probably the most fearful Daredevil that [laughter] may exist on Earth. >> YouTube star [music] Michelle Car behind one of the most popular shows on YouTube. Challenge accepted. >> In every episode, Michelle undertakes [music] some truly absurd challenge that most people watching would never try and do. >> I find this [music] year very fascinating to confront. >> It's your willingness to walk through that fear [music] that makes it so compelling. There's a difference between being daring and being reckless. Being daring is being bold with knowledge. So, I would like to attempt to become the first woman to [music] my palms are sweating right now just thinking about this. [music] I think the underappreciated aspect of what you do is your mastery over story. It's easy to look at your video in a passing way and say, "Oh, that's a crazy stunt that this person pulled off, but you have to break the story into its three-act structure." And you have to know what the bottom of the second act is going to look like even before you do it. Not knowing what's going to happen, but anticipating it enough to know that you can build tension and create these obstacles and intrigue and all the things that would go into a professional uh you know fictional narrative screenplay. >> I really appreciate you saying that. That is so kind. I mean, it's a reflection of an amazing team effort, of course, but what we like to do is with unscripted and with documentary, you can't script out what's going to happen, but we can create scenarios that will hopefully lead to that roller coaster of emotions. And so that's, you know, handinhand with the greenlighting process of do we have enough stakes throughout the next couple of months of filming this that we feel will naturally fall into the roller coaster of a story. Um, and sometimes along the way we make adjustments if there's not enough happening. Okay, we need to increase the stakes of the final challenge. we need to change this or um even you have to be at the at the mercy of where the story goes. So things change as you're filming and you have to follow that direction. >> Among the many challenges that you've accepted for the uninitiated out there, uh you uh went on a journey to get your black belt in 90 days. Uh you've gone into the firefighting world. There was an there was an experience of becoming an a NASA astronaut, a secret service agent, a chess grandmaster, uh enduring a Navy Seal hell week, uh being a a murder defense attorney, [laughter] uh passing as a Victoria Secret runway model, uh submerging yourself in a Houdini torture tank, driving an F1 car. I mean, the sheer diversity of these experiences is extraordinary. Like, the dexterity with which you're able to kind of drop into these worlds that you have no previous experience in and commit yourself thoroughly to mastering it as best you can in a compressed period of time is in and of itself like filled with dramatic tension. >> [snorts] >> Um, but I think another thing that gets missed is this notion that you're like you're you're called like YouTube daredevil, but that you're fearless. And that misses the entire point of the show, which is that you are afraid. And that's why you're doing it. It's your vulnerability and your um willingness to walk through that fear and have that experience that makes it so compelling. Thank you. Yeah, I'm probably the most uh fearful daredevil [laughter] that may exist on earth. Like I I'm a very anxious person. And that's just my whole life has been something I have been a worrier if you will. Yeah. >> Uh not a warrior, a warrior. Wo r [laughter] i e r. Um, and I think part of that is from this understanding and intimate acknowledgement of the sacrifice my parents made. You know, my dad moved to here from India. He gave up everything to give me a chance at a a future and and our family. And so, it's something I take very seriously and have always since I was a kid, you know, this is why doing well in school matters. This is why committing fully to anything I do matters. This is why if I take a risk, there has to be um an opportunity on the other side. And this show and this project um were kind of the first time I had taken a risk outside of the natural career bounds of life. >> Um after just falling into that line of do well in school, go to college, go to this, etc. Um, but I appreciate that background because it makes me extremely resource aware of of everything. I'm not hands off with anything. >> That's another conundrum and an interesting tension because you were raised and ingrained with this uh sense of safety and security being a priority given your your parents uh, you know, kind of experience and story. Uh, but then being this incredible risk taker at the same time. It's like you're taking on extraordinary risk, but you're also derisking it uh in a way that is, you know, honoring your upbringing, I guess. Uh and that is unique. Like you would think like, oh, you're just out there taking crazy risks. you you're just this insane daredevil, but like you're thinking through every aspect of this and how this uh project or value proposition or you know welcoming this risk into your life uh is going to have benefits on the other side of it that are going to play to that need for security and safety. >> I think there's a difference between being daring and being reckless. To me, being daring is being bold with knowledge and acumen and armoring yourself as best as you can for what's moving forward. Recklessness is something I don't identify with. diet. I mean, I think if I'm about to do a challenge and I can't explain to my Indian dad on the phone all of the the ways that I've put it together and why I believe it's going to be a success, it's not it's not something that I've actually researched enough that I have prepared enough for. We talk about something like the Mission Impossible stunt recreation, that's a team of engineers, stunt professionals. Um, you know, we had the the team who rigged cameras to Formula 1 cars in the Brad Pitt Formula 1 movie installing our cameras on the side of this plane. And that's why the journey of getting to that is slow, methodical, precise because it needs to be earned. Otherwise, >> I am being reckless and I would prefer to be daring. >> Has Tom Cruz watched this video? Do we [laughter] know? Do [snorts] we know? He must have >> at this point. Or Christopher McCory at least. >> I I don't have confirmation actually that Tom has. I I I've I've not heard anything uh specifically, but I I would like to hope that if he did see it that >> I guarantee >> maybe he would have maybe he would [laughter] >> your video where you meet him at the premiere is interesting. Like he's a you know, [laughter] >> right? I mean, he's just a I'm obsessed with this guy. Not as much as you are, but like, you know, as a personality, as a character, like his charisma and his like energy levels, you know, everybody who's met the guy, you know, says the same thing about what that experience is like. You had this moment with him where you got to kind of share with him a little bit >> and we got to see that experience, but what was that like for you like in person? >> You know, they say don't meet your heroes. I don't think that applies to Tom Cruz. Um I I think one of the reasons that I look up to him and many of the greats we talked about the Houdinis, the uh the Evil Convils, David Blaes, they occupy a space that is one of one. And I find that really admirable and interesting. When you are with Tom Cruz, it's like you're the only person in the world who exists. The eye contact is so intense. >> Um, and he truly listens. And I just admire that he gives 110% to every single thing that he commits to. That a yes from him is a thousand% yes. Um, and I I think that's why that project was so special to me was a lot of our projects are love letters to the communities and the people that >> I'm transparently a tourist in. Uh, you know, I I I go to experience Secret Service Academy for a week and it's very intense and we get to tell their story, but I'm a tourist in their community for that time. But you're translating that foreign world, that experience for an audience. Like if we do it correctly, >> what would it actually be like if you went through hell week, you know, or or you train to be an FBI agent, >> right? And and so ultimately, if we if we do it correctly, it's a educational piece. It's it's inspirational and it's a love letter to the community who welcomed me in. So that's really what that project was for me is the beginning of my channel actually started because I you know I didn't have much to offer at the beginning of my journey to collaborators but I saw an opportunity to highlight and elevate the stunt community because they never get the spotlight. And so at the beginning of my journey, I was sending DMs to like the the stunt double from Spider-Man, from Batman, from all of these epic series asking, would you train me for a week and then can we can we do a project together? And many of them fortunately said yes again because they don't get the spotlight. So my love has always been for elevating these people behind the scenes who are a part of that superhero identity and caricature. Um, and so really it's a it's a love letter to Tom Cruz of course, but >> very specifically to the stunt community. >> When you began this, did you have any sense that it would mature to this kind of place? I definitely at the beginning of making stuff on YouTube always had a vision of wanting to make a proper show. Um, something that would feel like it could be on television. I'm putting television in quotes cuz the YouTube app is on >> television. I mean, >> um, so even at the beginning of my channel, there were plenty of videos that I made of just me filming myself by myself with a phone, but I also whenever I could would try to bring a crew together, see if we could borrow someone's cousin's brother's Ari Alexa and shoot something more elevated because I saw it as an opportunity to develop myself as a storyteller. Now I think back then for many people it was let me show what I can do on YouTube to then go somewhere else >> to do it. But what I found really interesting was finding that vin diagram overlap of what would perform well online but also bringing high production value to it whenever I could um even with very few resources available to me. And while I don't think that was necessary for something to perform well, it was exciting to learn how to command a crew, how to truly produce, how to manage many people on set. Um, and also how to create something bigger. >> Mhm. >> Because ultimately what I was hoping to build was just a resume of what I could do with any resource provided to me. Your Magnum Mopus is really this uh replication of Tom Cruz's Mission Impossible stunt hanging off the side of a C130 as it's like taking off and flying around. It's such a compelling what is it like 40 minutes long. Uh you can't turn your eyes away from it at any moment. The storytelling is totally on point. You clearly understand storytelling and the production value is equivalent to a prime time major network broadcast television show. It's absolutely indistinguishable from something you would see on television except it's on YouTube. You did it yourself with your husband and this amazing crew that you're you're always bringing your crew into the conversation around what you're doing. And you're basically operating not just a production company but a startup. And I listened to your podcast with Tim Ferrris and you very much have this entrepreneur like startup leader. I know your husband is the CEO but like this leadership I you like how do you create an organization that can function at the highest level? >> Yeah. I mean it's by necessity. I I don't think I'm a person who um like woke up and was like I can't wait to to make a startup and [laughter] let's go do it. It was more that I saw that there was one path that many people have followed in for decades, which is become an assistant in Hollywood, hope that someone sees your work, hope that someone extends their arm down to you and pulls you up the the rung of the ladder. And I just knew pretty immediately after having some a little bit of experience in that world that I would not succeed in that. >> Um, >> why not? I don't think I because I'm too impatient. [laughter] >> I I I >> enough with the mail room. >> Well, no. >> I mean, you did that though. You You were at DreamWorks and you were at BuzzFeed. Like, you cut your teeth in, you know, kind of the traditional way initially. >> And I think those skill sets are important. I mean, you always know when my husband Garrett says like you can always tell when someone hasn't worked in service or been an assistant to someone else and that it impacts your leadership style effectively. And so I think those skills were were so important. I loved peing. I I actually loved assisting. But I knew that I would become a specialist in in supporting >> more than actually forcing myself to develop my own creative voice. >> And I had this thought of if 5 years from now I'm actually brought into a pitch room and they say pitch us your idea and pitch us why you should show run or direct or lead this, I wouldn't have the necessary skill sets. needed to do it. I needed to direct and fail at that and show run and fail at that and produce and become the CEO of my own company and fail at that until I figured it out for people to actually take me seriously. Um, so that's how I [laughter] ended up on YouTube was I just saw this opportunity to rather than tell people my vision, actually just go out and do it and let the audience decide if it was worth watching. Mhm. And I think it's easy to uh get a little confused if you watch the the Tom Cruz stunt video thinking like it's always been this way, but you've been doing this for seven years. You didn't come out of the gate with that kind of production value and that epic of of a scale. Like the challenges that you began with have incrementally kind of increased in their like, you know, heat value. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, some of my early videos were I'm going to go to the coffee shop or this restaurant and order something different on the menu because that is scary to me. [laughter] And slowly over time, I've just, you know, had the opportunity and the privilege to grow that Goldilocks zone of comfortability with fear and with it slowly evolve our production style to add a little bit more pizzazz when we can. But I think it's a trap to think that more resources into a project makes it better. >> And I people might find that surprising when you watch the >> Have [laughter] you Have you done a project where it was very expensive and didn't uh kind of connect in the way that you thought it would? And what is conversely was there a project that cost almost nothing that had an outsized impact? I would say that I feel very privileged and and lucky at this point when we're about to greenlight something that's going to be a big investment. It it has to do one of a few things. It it either has to have a plan to um have a return financially, of course, or be an opportunity that that allows us into something even more exciting or abundant in the future. So with this mission impossible stunt, that's a intense cash intensive project. Um, but we had a really robust plan going into it which allowed us the creative freedom to really give it our all and a little bit let go of of some of the necessary success of other things. But on the flip side, one of the cool things about Challenge Accepted is that there are very cheap episodes that have performed really well and I hold them just as dearly to my heart. I think a good example of this is I worked one day in a 911 dispatch. Um it was a one-day shoot. We flew to Colorado, shot it, flew back basically the same day. And I think at this point it has over 15 million views. And it's impactful because we often take for granted, especially in America, we can there's a phone number we can call when we have an emergency, um 911. And so this video, this episode explores who is actually on the other end of that line and what training do they need to effectively deploy resources to a person. So yes, we have these big flashy things. You know, we ran seven marathons on all seven continents uh last year too. That's a big flashy thing. >> But I also love the simple episodes that can have just as much if if not more at times impact. Yeah. If it's a 911 call, it's a phone call, but the stakes are very high. And if you're not skilled enough to guide that person, not so great things could happen. Exactly. The pressure is is exceedingly high as as high as it would be in any of your other challenges, although it's a very contained thing to capture on film. >> Right. And going into that episode, I thought, is anybody gonna watch this? It's just me on the phone for [laughter] 10 minutes. And it's I think you know the way that our team pulled it together and shout out to our incredible post-production team who really made it this riveting experience through sound and editing. Um and I think that's part of what the internet teaches you is a level of humility. You can't get comfortable with man I'm only going to be doing these big epic um you know resource intensive stunts from now on. actually know that we have to be humble to where any story, any piece of inspiration, any piece of impact can come from. >> How do you make that decision? How do you know when an idea is worthy of exploring? Because you're only making like six videos a year. Like there's a scarcity to uh your offering, which enhances the demand, I would imagine, on behalf of advertisers who want to be on board with what you're doing. Uh, but that means that you're going to have to say no to most things and you're really going to have to hone in on just a few projects that you're going to focus all of your time and attention on. >> There are a few things that we look for in greenlighting an episode. The first is our team has to be excited and passionate about it. That's actually priority number one. And I think that's important because if the team of you know 10 or 20 people working on it aren't excited about it, how can we convince millions of people to watch it? So having that diverse inner circle of unique people who watch many different things but can you know somewhat universally agree this is an interesting story is one for me. The second is, is this going to be a point of tension and transformation? Then that's just like a basic Snider's beads storytelling principle. There has to be a change in the character, in this case, me, from the start of the episode to the end. We have to learn something new. I have to change as a person. And if the stakes or the challenge don't require that, then there's actually no reason to do it because there's no reason to watch someone who remains the same at the beginning and end of a journey. And then the third is, is this a milestone life experience? Because I think those all go hand inand together. Um, is this something I would be excited to tell a story at a party? And in fact, we actually socialize a lot of our ideas, >> which you know, I your test screenings are like >> I told Colin and Samir this and they were like, "Wait, when you told us that idea at a party, you were social testing an idea with us, but you know, if if you go to a party or a kickback with some friends and they say, "Hey, what are you working on?" And you tell them, >> you can the first thing I look for is their reaction of they're like, "Oh, that's cool." Or Wait, what? >> Tell me more. Or I have a thousand questions about what you're about to do. And if people have follow-up questions, I know there's something there. So often a lot of our log lines for episodes are me just [laughter] seeing other friends and and bouncing it off of them to see their genuine reaction because that's I think is a really good qualitative metric of whether a story is actually worth telling. I want to take it back to the beginning to your to your childhood in Shreveport because it's very formative in in um you know creating the Michelle that's sitting in front of me right now. So talk a little bit about what it was like growing up. >> Well, I'm from Shreport, Louisiana. Shout out Shrefort. Um, and that was such an interesting amalgamative [snorts] childhood for me because >> I came from a mixed ethnicity family in a very, you know, socially divisive community. Um, there were not many Asian people there and there weren't many resources available. And what I mean by that is if you wanted to learn about film or arts or anything, it was kind of whatever you could find on the internet and maybe in a club at school. >> Um there wasn't much exposure to anything outside of our community. It was a it was a bubble in many ways. Um, and I have many the experience that I think many people have, which is not fitting in, not feeling a part of that southern cinjun culture. Um, but something really cool happened when a tax incentive came to Louisiana for film making. So all of these Los Angeles crews started filming movies and television shows in our backyard. So, it became this really interesting economic and artistic um renaissance for our community where, you know, the local store owner is now an extra in this vampire show on ABC and [laughter] stuff like that. And it was really exciting for our community. So, I got to experience being an extra, being a production assistant, and meeting all of these people from outside of our community, um, who who in inspired me and opened me to other types of way of life of of understanding the technicalities of how a visual story is told on a grand scale. And a lot of that uh impacted me even now and giving me the entrepreneurial spirit to kind of in many ways do it myself. [snorts] >> Layered on top of that was your dad's obsession with movies. So you you had sort of a film school indoctrination >> uh growing up because of your dad's fandom. >> Exactly. I mean my dad learned English on the plane even traveling from India to the US watching films. um and and emulating the pronunciation of the words that the actors would use. So um escaping in in movies was was a big part of his um acceptance of American culture. >> And so we had a printed out list of the AFI top 100 movies and every weekend we would check off a new movie together. Um, and my dad is not a film expert, so he did, it wasn't like he was teaching me necessarily about it, but just us sitting down together and trying to decipher uh, Citizen Cane together was was an interesting attempt at I think even just entrepreneurally interpreting art in a way in a very grassroots effort. >> Um, and because there was nothing else to do in Treefor, we spent every weekend at the movie theater. So I saw every movie that came out. Even like good movie, bad movie, Oscar movie, Bside romance, every single movie that came out, >> I saw it. >> So that's a ripple in the traditional immigrant story that um creates an opening for you to explore this world instead of just being focused on being a doctor or an engineer or a lawyer. Like is he thrilled that you're doing this now? Like in [laughter] a or is it still like you can still go to med school? >> Well, you're like, "Well, I made a video. I did I went on ER rounds with Dr. Mike." >> Yes, I did do that. He did enjoy [laughter] that episode. He really enjoyed that. Um, I think that at at the end of the day, something I've come to learn in adulthood is um that frustration I had felt and I think many immigrant, first generation kids feel of uh like the doctor, lawyer, engineer of it all. It's really the true root of that is a deep love and desire for stability specifically because the people who are telling you to become the doctor, lawyer, engineer are people who intimately understand instability and in a very very real way not just financial hardship but um socioeconomic tension and and how that impacts a family. And so as an adult, it's very easy for me to understand that now hard growing up. But again, what it forced me to do is, okay, I'm not just going to quit my job and start a YouTube channel and hope it all works out because I'm ambitious and I'll figure it out. I had a 9-month plan and that's because I grew up in an environment where I was made acutely aware of having a plan A B C D all the way through Z. So, I'm grateful for that because it does make me a better risk taker. Now, fasting has been a recurring and very popular topic on this show. And over the years, I've hosted so many experts on it, more than I can count. 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You have a huge motor. You're very internally motivated. Uh you were a star student. You went to Dartmouth. You didn't just go to Dartmouth. You also were on the cycling team there. You later went on to compete uh as a cyclist when you were working for BuzzFeed full-time. You became a professional cyclist. you were doing taekwond do like you're you're an athlete full stop like at a very high level so academically ambitious and accomplished athletically accomplished you know at an Ivy League school um the traditional route would have been okay what's next you know McKenzie or whatever and you end up with an internship at Google tell that story because I think that's also like a sliding door moment for you >> well you know when you don't you don't [laughter] go down the doctor, lawyer, engineer path. It becomes, okay, can you go into tech? >> And I think I saw it originally as here's the hip cool version of a stable path forward. Um I mean, you just know if if you get a job at a place like that, I think >> it's going to be okay. >> You're going to be okay. You're going to have a 401k. Um >> parents will be happy. >> Yes. And I saw it as it was it was the same summer that the movie The Internship came out >> with Owen Wilson. >> Oh, is that is that the one with where Robert Dairo is the old guy in the office? >> I'll be honest, I don't remember any of the plot of this movie. Anyway, go ahead. >> But it was a movie about it was a comedy about being an intern at Google. I don't understand how this movie is crazy actually. But I do remember they were actually at Google. >> They were I THINK THEY SHOT IT there even, which is insane. Um, so it was the same summer that came out and at that time it was this sense of this is the cool way to have stability. There's free lunch and there's outings and flexibility. And so I was curious about exploring that. Now, what ended up happening is while I was there, I got to see a little bit of the behind the scenes of YouTube, which was acquired by Google, >> um, and learn more about this emerging platform and was so interesting to me. And at the end of the summer, they have this I don't know if they do this anymore, but there's a designated day when after you've completed the internship, you go back to school and you're waiting by the phone for a phone call to see if you get the job. Um, and I was in a group chat with all of my friends. Everyone's like, "I got it. I got it. I'll see you next year. I start July 15th next year. Can't wait to see you." >> I got my phone call. I did not get the job. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> So, I did not get the job. And >> had you got the job, you would have happily taken that job. >> Had I got the job, I would have taken the job for sure. I'm sure. Um, and again, because I think at that point in my life, I was operating from this deep place of I've got to find security. I've got to find stability to for myself, for my family, for honoring their sacrifice. Like all of those very deep rooted fears were driving all of my decisions. >> And that rejection actually forced me to >> become creative in [snorts] many ways for the first time in my life. Like true creativity of back against the wall. I, you know, I didn't get this job. Corporate recruiting already happened. what am I going to do? Um, and I appreciated that because it it led me to working as a creator in YouTube and I I think a lot of those inflection points happen when your back is against the wall and you have to step forward through that fear. Your real education in storytelling and production was at BuzzFeed though. You end up at is is that where you ended up like right after college? >> Yeah. So I ended up at at BuzzFeed which again I'm like reconcile. All right. So like this is sort of the intersection of tech and entertainment. Yeah. That'll be safe [laughter] and secure. >> Um >> was that peak Buzzfeed time? >> It was. So, at the the time I was there, not because I was there, but I just happened to be there, uh, when it was at at one point the fastest growing YouTube channel and series of YouTube channels in the world. Um, it was an incredibly cool environment where everyone was in their early 20s. It was a startup vibe, but creative in in a in a in a artistically creative way, I suppose. Um, and I would say that I learned a lot about what works on the internet and how to drive a moment on the internet. But I think a lot of the storytelling that I learned specifically that we bring to Challenge Accepted now was meeting the people that I actually collaborate still with to this day on Challenge Accepted. So like Garrett and Nick on our team. Um, so while I was at BuzzFeed, I was also becoming friends with a group of people who all went to film school and learned everything from the ground up and absorbing just by osmosis from them all of this fantastic film history and um, you know, we would outside of work go to the events at the Academy Museum and and learn about this stuff. So, as someone who didn't go to film school, just surrounding myself with people who could say, "Oh, this is why uh in in this film, the camera moves like this to emphasize this because in the script of XYZ, like learning that backwards was really helpful for me." And when I left to create my own channel, um I was really fortunate that they were excited to, you know, spend a Saturday with me collaborating on a on a video together. and you were thrown into the deep end and you had to in the chaos of, you know, Buzzfeed, uh, where so much was happening so quickly, you had to figure out how to make these videos, how to shoot them, edit them, get them up online, evaluate what's working, what's not working, and then, you know, rinse and repeat time and time again. I mean, that was really your >> that was your, you know, kind of Navy Seal, you [laughter] know, boot camp film school. really teaches you um >> a sense of done is better than perfect and urgency. We were required to deliver a certain number of videos per week, plural videos per week, long form YouTube videos. I mean, this was before short vertical video was a thing. Um and we were required to ideulate, script, shoot, edit, direct, cast, whole nine. But it was always about meeting that quota and hitting that deadline. And sometimes that led to that pressure led to incredible outcome. Sometimes a lot of, you know, people experienced um fatigue and burnout from that. But I really appreciated, you know, you get your hundreds of reps in there of learning what works and what doesn't. And ultimately, even though the business model of our channel and and and company now is in many ways completely opposite to that because it's scarcity more than anything. Um it it comes from a place of moving when something matters >> and I never want to let go of that. [snorts] So given this appreciation for stability that had been instilled in you, what was the journey towards like releasing yourself from the corporate, you know, kind of womb and like going out on your own? like how did you make that leap uh and reconcile that that desire or that need or that appreciation for security to venture into a world where there was very little of it? >> For me, this came down to um I I accidentally stole a copy of the 4hour work week from a >> co-worker, >> uh which I still have. I don't know who I stole it from, but I have your book. [laughter] Hit me up. Um, I I I borrowed this from a coworker and I read the book and it was really impactful to me. I mean, you know, when you when you read some of that um when when you have your first couple of experiences reading non-fiction literature, I think it it really opens your mind. Um, and I appreciated how Tim very clearly laid out here is a plan for how you could um start your own company or uh create autonomy for yourself. And while I didn't apply necessarily all of the principles, I did a um a fear setting chart. I um I made a plan n months before quitting my job of what to do. And it was very simple. Um, I moved into a studio apartment with a roommate. I cut down a lot of my living expenses. I forced myself to make videos every weekend, even if I didn't post them. I needed to socialize and prove to myself that I actually cared about this thing enough to warrant leaving stability, leaving the nest. But at the end of the day, I think again it came from a a sense of I felt that I had plateaued in this position that I had learned a lot but I wasn't actually challenging myself and that if I wanted to get to where I ultimately needed to go, the fastest way to get there was to take a big jump. >> Mhm. So by lowering your overhead [laughter] and right like realizing >> like okay I don't need all these like I can live like leanly >> um I can stretch whatever savings I have uh >> give space for taking a little bit of a leap taking a risk. talk a little bit more about the fear setting idea, like whiteboarding out your fears and really kind of confronting what those were at the time. >> Exactly. I knew that when I left my job, I had a couple months of savings, but I also understood if I get this many views, theoretically I could make it this much in AdSense and that could cover this, this, and this. So at the beginning my my model was um make the best thing I can to garner a garner um viewership and really serve the audience and hopefully I'll see at least like living expenses covered by this thing. >> Um some of those key fears I had were running out of money. they were uh the shame component of you know I've seen at that point other people just in general in my life leave their jobs for an entrepreneurial venture and completely fail. Um there there was fears of um just you know embarrassing yourself online. I think that the I've heard other people say this, but the barrier to entry of success is a mountain of cringe. >> And so I think when you're young, there's this feeling of, man, if I'm out here trying and trying publicly where everyone can see me online, if it's if it's not going well and nobody's watching, everyone's going to talk about me behind my back. So like all of these [laughter] all of these things that like you and I know absolutely don't matter now >> and and this notion like >> she went to Dartmouth like what is she doing? You know she you could be it almost makes it worse. Uh I mean the fact that you have this education >> means that you probably even if it didn't work out you could probably go get a job somewhere like you're going to be able to get hired. There's a there's a built-in kind of internal security system to that. But at the same time, there's the internal monologue of like, I went and got this amazing education that, you know, my parents, you know, bled for so that I could have and now I'm going to go be a YouTuber when I could be doing fill in the blank. [laughter] >> You know, you know what I mean? Like >> I'll be honest, I hadn't thought about it. think that's where my mind goes. [laughter] [gasps] >> My classmates my classmates are doing this and I'm here like trying to build a YouTube channel. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Before I mean cuz this is before Yeah. it was >> before it was known that it could be >> I think um I think back then people knew that there were YouTubers who had found financial success but I don't know if universally and even today I suppose that it was always a respected profession >> um or that it could be a company I think that there's been a big shift in the past few years at least of understanding these business models are fullyfledged production and IP companies. >> Yeah, you're running an entire enterprise. You're running a studio basically, but that wasn't really the idea, you know, eight years ago necessarily. I mean, not that there weren't examples of that, but it wasn't the way it is now, >> right? Exactly. And that's why I think part of the fear setting methodology was helpful to me because I gave myself a deadline. I said, I'm going to give myself 3 months to really make this work with this game plan. And if it doesn't, my LinkedIn is up to date. I'll call around. I'll make it work. >> Uh I don't think I felt like I would be fine, but I was telling myself I had done enough. Um, and then just going in with the knowledge of these are the three months that are not a gift to me, but these are the three months where I prove to myself and to uh and and to my future that it it's a worth like I can step up to the plate. It's on me to actually find success. And I think taking ownership of it's on me if the video goes up this week. It's on me if it if it does or does not get views. And if it doesn't get views, it's on me to interpret the data and learn from that and grow as a better storyteller. It's on me to make sure that when people collaborate with me, they're paid on time and effectively. Everything. I think that massive responsibility was very heavy and scary to do alone when I didn't really have any other peers who were doing something like this. But also, it gave me empowerment to know that if this doesn't work out, there's no one to blame except for me. So, it's it's on me. >> The agency is exciting but daunting at the same time. >> So daunting. >> Yeah. To backtrack a little bit here. I mean, we kind of skipped over the fact that you were a professional cyclist. [laughter] >> Our our overlap. You're working at BuzzFeed and somehow you're competing as a professional cyclist on the BMW team and traveling every weekend to what were you racing? Crits. >> I was primarily crits and then I did some stage races and and road races too, but primarily crits criterion. >> How were you training during this time and racing? And then when you went out on your own, did you just decide, okay, I'm putting that aside? >> Yeah. I mean, here's what happened. When I got the job at BuzzFeed, I also found out that I was It was It was a few weeks after I very was very lucky to win U23 Nationals that year. Um >> Oh my god. >> Which is crazy. Okay. No, I'm just going to tell this story because >> Okay, please here's the story. >> People probably don't ask you about your cycling career. Like, I'm here for that. Like, please. All right. So, I started cycling uh when I came to LA my junior year on an internship and I didn't have any friends. So, I but I saw everybody here bikes. It's, you know, very outdoorsy place. Um so, I thought, okay, maybe if I join a cycling group and and I'll I'll have friends. Um >> Oh my god. >> So, I just started doing it. >> You you hadn't even So, it wasn't like you had been riding bikes forever before this. >> Oh my I wish. >> Wow. No, no, no, no, no. But it's walk with me. Okay. So, I started riding. I just because the weather here is beautiful and I had no social life. My social life was going to ride a bike. So, when most people are hanging out chilling at home with their friends, I was like, "Well, if I want to have a social life, I'm going to go to the 700 p.m. Griffith ride tonight." Um, and just by doing that, I I naturally improved. And I was terrible in the beginning cuz I had no experience with endurance sports whatsoever. But I just loved it and I got hooked. You can uh [clears throat] you know exactly what I'm talking about. And it's a great way to see the city when you're new here. So I was getting to see, >> you know, the top of Mount Wilson and all the Santa Monica Mountains and >> even seeing places that people who have lived there their whole lives never get to see. And so that was just really exciting to me and I and I enjoyed it. And so when I went back after my internship to college, I um I was just like, well, I guess I could join the cycling team and see what happens. And it it went well. But what happened is after I graduated, there was U23 nationals and there are two events. There's the road race and then the criterium. The road race happens before the criterium. And I don't think I did exceptionally well in the road race by any means. But what a lot of people do is they look at the results of the road race to know going into the criterium who are the real threats to deal with. >> So something happened during the criterium race where some something just came over me and I realized nobody sees me as a threat. What if I just go off the front? >> Went off the front. >> Yeah, just like have a moment. You know, people just do that and they have a moment. I was like, I'm not going to win this thing. Whatever. >> I'll just have a moment. Maybe I'll get a nice photo because they always have great photographers at these things. So, I do that and 20 minutes pass and I'm like looking at my garment. I'm like looking at the laps. I'm like, what's going on here? And I'm I'm pushing myself. And exactly that happened where because nobody thought I was a threat, they assumed I would burn out. Burn out and then I ended up winning the race. >> That is so crazy. >> So I was not the best cyclist. >> And this was [laughter] your senior your senior year in college. >> Just after I I graduated and then like 3 weeks later when and I just I was just like, "Oh yeah, I'll go do that. I um I know somebody who lives in the area. I can stay with them." Um, and I was still like trying to figure out what am I supposed to do with my life. So that happened around the same time that I got the job. Uh, and so without knowing much about either, I was like, well, let me put an egg in each basket and see what what goes the farthest. Um, and what was cool is now both exist in my life in a different way in that I get to be a an athlete for challenge accepted making the show we make. And I think that what that period of life taught me where I was like basically Hannah Montana living [laughter] double life >> was there is always you can always make time. >> If you care about something, there's time for it. you will make the time for it. Um, and really maximizing every single second you have because I was getting off work at 6 p.m. and immediately going on a training ride, waking up the next day, doing it over and over again. And that is I I think, you know, you have to have balance with that, of course. Um, but it it really taught me how to maximize my time and and make time work for you. Mhm. It also uh adds a a an added layer of color on your seven marathons on seven continents in seven days. It's like, okay, you're not coming from nothing on this. Like you you're a U23 national champion. >> Well, there was some time between those two things. Let me clarify. >> You know, but uh you know, knowing that it's like, oh, she's going to be fine on these marathons. >> It was really hard. [laughter] I'll say that. I would I would rather do a criterium than run seven marathons in a row again. >> Um yeah, that that was a big one. >> Yeah, >> that was a really big one. >> Um it was fraught with all these obstacles and challenges. I mean, the Antarctica marathon was insane. And you got to do it >> uh with David Kilgore, who I don't know, I've met him. Um I don't know him well, but you know, no better person to >> be your shepherd. I mean, was he I guess he was your coach. So, >> you talk about needing a coach, a mentor, and a cheerleader for every one of your projects. >> That's true. Yes. Yeah. So, I I mean, people ask me all the time, what is the, you know, how do you learn something quickly? And I I think it is those three things. It's you've got to have a coach, a mentor, and a cheerleader. And those aren't always people, but in the case of our episodes, they typically are. So for the seven marathons challenge, I wanted to have an exceptional coach who has coached people to do great things in endurance sports. So for me that was coach Gareth. But then I also think it's important to have a mentor which is someone who has been in that hot seat before. And those are typically two different people. um you know the the person who is coaching the Knicks may not have been in in a supreme basketball player themselves but they clearly knew how to win this year. Um and so the mentor figure for me is in this case David Kilgore who has not only done the seven marathon experience around the world but he's won it before. And so th that differentiation is important because you want a coach who knows how to teach and you want a mentor who can relate and empathize to I know what it feels like to be shivering in Antarctica questioning how you're going to run 20 more miles. That relatability is important especially when you're going after something big. If you're if you're taking a big risk in life in anything, I think there's a sense of aloneeness that comes with it because if you're really stepping outside of your comfort zone, you're mo most people don't in general. So that that's important. And then the third role is the cheerleader, which is the person who just loves you no matter what the outcome is. And I think that's really important because it connects you back to planet earth in a way of reminding you of the gratitude and also that you will continue to have support moving forward. But at the beginning of my journey like the coach, mentor etc. that was like my coach is a YouTube video teaching me how to edit better. My mentor is following someone who has uh been a YouTuber a year longer than me and just seeing what their trajectory is. So the mentorship is not always personto person, but it can be observing and learning from different entities. >> And then the cheerleader for me at the beginning of my channel was my sister who uh really was like go off do it. >> Yeah. [gasps] You talk so much about your team and you're always crediting them. this is a team effort anytime these uh challenges are are are tackled. But to your point, like in the early days, you know, you didn't you weren't surrounded by, you know, 30 people on a set that grew over time. So at the beginning when you would have some audacious idea or some challenge that you wanted to execute, how were you able with limited resources to find the people to build these you know teams that you know some I'm sure like are temporary for the production but then kind of then you have your core long-term you know everyday team. How did you slowly assemble that? Did it come from those friends at BuzzFeed initially and then you built upon that? I'm interested in like the economics of how you [laughter] slowly, you know, were able to kind of ascend to this place where you're capable of managing like these gigantic productions. I learned early on that the concept needs to provide value to the artists and collaborators that you're working with regardless of how it performs. So for me, for those early projects where we would have a crew of 15 or 20 people, pretty quickly out the gate of starting my channel, even if the offering I even if I couldn't always provide financially in the way that people may have been used to, I was able to find ways to allow them to express their creativity in ways they don't get to do on traditional film sets. And I learned very quickly that there were frustrations that every department has in working in the studio system. And so I thought, okay, well, there are very simple ways I can provide comfort and value that aren't always financial. Here's a very basic example. If you work on a big set, there's typically just general catering. Oftentimes, people forget dietary restrictions. They forget vegan. they forget all of this. And so I thought, okay, you know, I might not be able to afford the nicest catering, but I can allow everybody to choose exactly the order that they want from Chipotle or whatever, wherever we're ordering. And that small gesture is just an example of many ways I was able to identify what are solvable pain points in your other workplaces that I can fix in mine that that that at least bring joy to the creation process. >> And those are things that we still do today. Like I think that if you are a producer bringing a crew together, you're a party planner. You want people to have fun working together. You want to create a space that has joy when you when you come to it. And if if it doesn't have that, then I have failed as a producer. So there were there were minor things like that or even hearing, you know, hair and makeup uh teams are often frustrated when they come to set and there are no tables for them and and they have nowhere to put their stuff. There's always tables for camera team, but not for hair makeup. Okay. Well, I've got a folding table in my garage and I'll make sure it's laid out nice and that it's labeled properly. That costs $0 for me, but it actually means something to >> and these people feel seen and honored and respected. Yeah. >> And another thing that we started doing pretty early was postmortems on shoots. So again, with with zero with not much to offer, what I would tell people is I you know I would text people after like, "Hey, how did you feel on set? what can I improve on? And sometimes that feedback was super actionable. Hey, next time we do this, um, I would I would like 45 minutes to to set this light instead of 30. >> Great. I can do that next time. And that helps me learn as a producer to better support the people coming together. So, we do that for every single shoot, for every single upload. We have a department head postmortem. >> And that's portable outside of film production. Like if you're on a team or you're leading a team in your workplace, obviously that's like a good idea >> that's going to engender loyalty and buy in and emotional connection to the shared mission. >> And it's something I think that like Kim Scott, for example, emphasizes so well with radical cander is I think in the beginning when I again was the only entrepreneur in my sphere that I knew who was crazy enough to quit their job and started something. I didn't have any peers to learn from about management, about how to do anything on on the business side of things. And I think a lot of young people are scared to ask for feedback after a group project like that because sometimes, you know, I messed up and I or or um I already know what they're going to say. And I I would argue many times you don't. Um, or many times you think that if you really messed up in the project, it was unnoticeable to other people. And I think like having the bravery to ask for that critical feedback is is mission critical. Otherwise, you find out months, years later down the line, oh, this has been a problem since whatever and I could have fixed it so easily. It's so mutually beneficial to ask for critical feedback. Giving feedback and receiving feedback is a skill and an art that is teachable and learnable and vital and critical, but something I didn't appreciate until I moved here and started hanging out with more creative people and started working in a more creative capacity. Like I never thought much about that. It was something like, whoa, I don't want to hear, you know, like, yeah, I hope it's good, but you don't really value how important it is to be able to be open to constructive criticism. And what you find, and this is probably, you know, uh, at a heightened level in a place like Los Angeles where, you know, everybody's kind of involved in some kind of creative project, like like welcoming it, like being like, "Oh my god, I can't wait for this feedback because it's going to make me better." as opposed to it being like identity threatening, you know, and something to like fear. Like understanding it's when it's when it's given in the right spirit and strategically, >> you're able to receive it in the spirit of like we both want this to be the best thing and we have this shared common vision. And the way we're going to get there is by allowing ourselves to be open and honest. like that radical canandoandor is like vital to the health of a the best interest of the pro of a project. >> So it's something that is difficult may be difficult now emotionally egotistically but always pays dividends in the future. >> This episode is brought to you by Pulto. Now I've been in the wellness world a long time. I've seen a million gadgets come and go, all pitched to solve this or that, only to discover that there really is no there there. But the Pulto had such a noticeable impact [music] on a person I care about that I decided I had to try it myself. And the crazy thing is that it really does work, deepening my sleep at night and giving me a more consistent, [music] calmer energy throughout the day. All right, so these are not headphones. You don't put it on like this. The Pulsetto Fit is a wearable device that sits around your neck just like this. 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[music] So, you can test it and see how your body responds. We are running an audience survey over at richworld.com/servey and I genuinely love for you to take a couple quick minutes with it. Here's why it matters to me. First, [music] I want to actually know you. Who's out there listening? What do you care about? What are the kinds of guests and the kinds of conversations and themes that land for you? Because the more that I understand that, the better I can make this show the thing you actually want it to be. And second, look, you know, there are ads on this podcast. This is what makes this whole affair possible. [music] But I'm incredibly selective about the brands that I work with, partnering with only the ones that I use myself and truly believe in. And I never want my sponsorships to feel intrusive or random. And the only way to get that right is to understand you a little bit better. Takes two minutes tops. It's genuinely one of the simplest, most direct ways you can help us [music] keep evolving the show. And I don't take that help for granted. So check it out. Please visit richroll.com/servey to fill out our audience survey. You're approaching this like you're getting your Harvard MBA, like you're studying Adam Grant and like organizational psychology and like how to build this team and you're thinking deeply about all of these things. You're not just, oh, here's a challenge and I need to make a video about it. Like there's so much more behind the scenes going on that has contributed to not just your success, but also the longevity and the stability of like what you've built. Well, thank you. I uh love Adam Grant. One of my favorite people. Um I >> He's like your pal now. [laughter] >> I mean, I would I would love to say he's my pal. Uh I think he's really really cool. Um he's he's like an A-list superstar to me. I just love him so much. Um, I think something that I had to learn and unlearn when I started my own endeavor was the concept of slowing down when I saw all of my peers speeding up constantly. And I mean I'm very grateful for the success we've had but our trajectory and you can look at the data it's been slow and steady growth where some of my peers have experienced massive J curve and that's because they went in the camp of this is working. We got to go go. But I also saw that at a certain point they hit a a mass where they had no infrastructure. They hit burnout. um there's like financial troubles. >> Um and so every step along the way, I've just honestly been lucky to be surrounded by people who said, >> "Actually, wait, let's think twice about that. Let's let's uh let's consider this. This is not just a video. This is going to be online forever. What is that?" Do you know asking >> important qualitative questions that led to quantitative success? But you have to um sometimes sit with that pain of watching other people really go up the roller coaster while you are marinating in this sense of I I hope one day people understand this vision for prestige television on YouTube. And that's [laughter] >> was that always from the beginning the vision like I want to create like the highest quality television worthy type of content because all the incentives in your space were more faster crazier and you are in a genre where you know like challenge videos it's like okay well every every every new video has to top the one before and there's an acceleration to your point of like people burning out and flaming out like we've all seen people who were big once and you're like, "What happened to that person?" >> They're gone and they either like got into a situation where it just got too crazy or they didn't have the organizational infrastructure to be able to handle it. But you from the beginning having the self-belief and the conviction to not play that game and say we're only going to put out the highest quality stuff and it's going to take time and we're going to have to, you know, kind of go dark uh for extended periods of time while we're really workshopping this stuff. uh and and be able to have the timmerity to withstand, you know, kind of the pressures that are on us to like put stuff out to just say, "No, we're going to make this the best and it's going to take time and it'll come out when it's ready to come out." >> And that's >> I mean, that's a very traditional Hollywood kind of approach as opposed to a YouTube approach. Well, something I I noticed early on was I at the beginning of the channel, I would do three videos that I thought would just perform well and then one video that I would really sit with and and and try to make my best and and bring in my friends and and make it a little bit of a bigger thing. And I enjoyed the response from those projects more and I saw the community deepening and really responding to those more in-depth projects. So the the vision was always how can we bring the learnings from the high performing stuff in into these passion projects and and hopefully [laughter] >> you know like have this uh crossaxis where the stuff that we enjoy making the most is also the stuff that performs the best. But you have to be humble to I think a little bit of that >> sometimes what the audience wants isn't the big flashy thing and that's okay and what can I learn from that? How can it make me a better storyteller? Um the vision but I had always noticed that with those deeper more intensive higher production value projects I could at least differentiate myself from everyone else. Mhm. >> I saw, you know, everybody's doing these big challenge videos in many cases using clickbait or using drama. Those aren't values I necessarily align with. How can how else can I stand out? Okay. Well, I'm very fortunate to be surrounded by such talented artists. This is how we can stand out is our teamwork here. So, it might not always get the most amount of views, but if we do it right, we can create something that does have a high impact on people and a and a deeper touch point to the heart. Because at the end of the day, what I think a great episode does is helps people emotionally rehearse courage. And if we haven't done that, despite how many views that piece may get, it's not actually a success. we have to help people inspire change. And so that's why the comments and feedback on on those more in-depth episodes meant more to me and I saw uh a larger opportunity for deeper impact. >> Mhm. You're playing the long game always. You know, you have your eyes on a very distant horizon where so many people in the creator space are are chasing trends and creating from a place of reactivity. Like what's what's hot now? We need to do this. and they're bouncing around with without any kind of firm ballast and you just seem so grounded in your approach and there's something beautiful about that. We've lost the appreciation of the artist who disappears for a couple years, the Quentyn Tarantino, even you know, Christopher Nolans and and you know, the Rolling Stones, whoever it is, like they're not like making Tik Toks every day. like they're working on mastering their craft and they'll come out with something when it's ready to show you and when they do it impacts culture uh in an exponential way as a result. So within [snorts] the kind of context of the creator economy where the pressure is, oh, you should be posting more and you do this. Uh, it's it's creatively draining, it's exhausting, and you're not putting out great work. You're just you're kind of like on this hamster wheel. So, of course, people are burning out or getting tired of it or losing their enthusiasm for this medium. and you creating fewer pieces of content that are more durable and really thoughtfully conceived and conceptualized and executed on. Gives them a gives your gives your projects this longer tale, but also establishes you at a different kind of tier that is starting to look more and more like traditional Hollywood. Like we're coming full circle in terms of what's happening, you know? It's like, [laughter] yeah, like, okay, >> podcasting was cool because you could just buy a mic and do it anywhere. And then it became a video thing. And then everybody's making their own public access TV show. But now you have to create a network television show in order to be competitive. And we're seeing podcasters who have gigantic staffs of people and they're functioning as if it's the Oprah show. And that's what you need to do in order to be successful. And so it's incumbent upon the creator to decide like what kind of game do they want to play? Do you want to be in that world? Is that what you're doing? What are you really about? And what's your mission? I'm not saying any of these things are wrong choices. They're just not for everybody. And when you're making those decisions based upon what everyone else is doing, you're not looking at the white space and what people aren't doing yet that suits your integrity and and like your vision for and your unique like what you can uniquely offer into the into the space and you seem to have like a lot of clarity about that I guess is what that's a roundabout way of saying that. >> I mean if if I had it my way, we would release far more episodes of Challenge Accepted per year. But we have sort [snorts] of arrived at at least for now this um happy medium of this is the most number we can put out while not just maintaining quality as an ambiguous like production value term but also the stories take a long time to tell. This week we're culminating filming on a project where I've been training for 6 months to go to Taekwondo Nationals. That story can only be told by me actually training to go to [laughter] >> you. You're not you can't compact that into a week a week long production schedule which is what you would have to do if you were doing that project with ABC or Netflix or Amazon. >> And that's important to me because at the end of the day the viewers want to see a dramatic transformation in me. They want to see commitment and that is only earned unfortunately through a lot of time put into something. So we have to do a balance of longerterm intensive projects amidst projects like the 911 and dispatch that have just as much impact but are only filmed in a few days. And I think having that humility to inspiration can come from anywhere is so important because I don't know necessarily if I at least have the the luxury of if I were to fully fall into the disappearing artist of I'm going to put out one thing per year. I think I would in some ways lose touch with what's performing well. And by that I don't mean what gets views but what audiences are engaging with. I think it's important to exist in the ecosphere that your audience is in. And then on the other hand, I know that if I had continued on the rat race path, I wouldn't have differentiated myself. Early in the conversation, you uh you talked a little bit about this idea that, you know, several years ago, somebody might get into YouTube because it would create some visibility for what they're doing that might lead to them getting a television show on a cable channel or a network. Now, that's been reversed. It's been flipped upside down. I would imagine uh there's there's very little that a Netflix or an Amazon or a Hulu could offer you that would make you want to do something with them. It would have to be a unique value proposition because you're commanding an an audience that's larger than what they have. And so would you do something with a streamer or a broadcast network? and what would they have to be providing you in order for that to be interesting to you? Now, >> it's such an interesting conversation because we are seeing content creators get huge exclusive deals at Amazon, at Netflix, at some of these big >> Mr. Beast did his show with Amazon. So, they made it worth his while. And I think you look at an example like that and and see what Jimmy did was um one of the most cash intensive I think the most expensive unscripted reality show that's ever been done. So I think there are always ways to elevate and expand. And I think more than anything, like more than money or opportunity or whatever, I just want this barrier between the two worlds to go down because to me it's been such a silly arbitrary pencil of a line. >> Um, and that's why the the work is important to me. It's I recognize that when we post an episode and and hear feedback that it is it feels like a prestige television show that doesn't just impact me and feels nice to hear. It's I want other people to know that I'm not the only content creator doing this. There are many people who are striving for this level of excellence. Cleo Abram, Johnny Harris, Britney Berski, there are many people who have have arrived here and I feel like it's it's kind of it's this situation of um a stereotyping association with it rather than actually >> truly judging the material for the material. >> You're not arriving. you have arrived and the machine can either accept that and embrace it or they're they are going the way of the dodo and the history is pretty clear. I mean, when you look back at what happened to the music industry when when Napster became a thing and there were record label execs who were still talking about shipping units, when you know these MP3s that were only like 2 megabytes or whatever were getting shared all over the world and people like Skrillex were figuring out how to make amazing music on a laptop and they're still holding on to this idea that it's going to be the way it always has been and we need to like we need to figure out how to combat this title wave that's coming in our direction. And the uh people within the music industry who saw the future and embraced what was happening ended up winning and you know now we're seeing what's happening. It's maybe not so great for artists along the way. Like we could have a conversation about what the streaming services uh you know Spotify and Apple Music are are you know how is that how is that remunerating the musicians themselves. Um, but the fact of the matter is it happened and the people who got on board with it early were able to figure out a way forward and revenue models all always follow. And of course now the the digital files are just you know 2 gigabytes instead of two megabytes. But it's the same principle and the development executives and the studio people who are resisting what's happening the same thing is going to happen. And the people who are embracing you and Cleo and like you know what's happening in this digital space um everything will get sorted out if they're seeing the opportunity in it. And this convergence of the digital creator space with Hollywood is one of the most fascinating things I've ever seen. And I'm so energized and excited about it. Like now late night through Julian is getting ported to YouTube and what's next? You know, evening news and sports and all of these things. The Academy Awards is going to be on YouTube. And when you look at the audience that YouTube as a whole commands, it dwarfs all of these other streamers, but it doesn't necessarily get the respect that, you know, a Netflix does because it's doing a different thing. But it's such a behemoth and it's only going to continue to grow. And the way in which it has captured the imagination of young people I think is fascinating. Like when you see what happened with backrooms and obsession uh >> you know with Kane Parsons and and Curry Barker like these guys are superstars that started in YouTube. They come with large followings. They're so young and they're making their first features at a level that somebody who has been directing films for 20 years would hope to emulate. You know what I mean? And I have a 19-year-old daughter and like she's more excited about going to the movies to see these films than anything else. Like she loves document documentaries, but she doesn't necessarily know who Morgan Spurlock is or even Shane Smith for that part. But she will never miss an Andrew Callahan video. She's watched every Channel 5 video. And I think like seeing this uh generational shift of these young people who are reinventing these mediums and speaking in the language of their generation and how that's connecting with young people, all of which was germinated on YouTube. I think is just absolutely beautiful and fascinating to watch. And you're very much, you know, part of that story. >> I'm really excited that it's happening. It it just feels it feels really exciting to me because I you know you mentioned earlier when you were talking about the process of making a show in traditional it's like a dissertation that's a Wikipedia entry of paragraphs of steps you have to take and I think about how much great art has been left behind because someone along the way like didn't respond to an email and that massive chain of events that have to happen for success to happen. Um, and I am excited about a future where future storytellers, if they have an amazing idea and have the willpower to make it come to life and to garner [snorts] an audience who's behind it, >> I'm excited for them to feel that they have a future of uh for them as a part of telling that story. I think the the the coolest part is the hybridization like how can these two worlds work together to create amazing like obviously uh you know back rooms required A24 and you know the minations of the traditional system in order to get it into theaters etc like that's a best case scenario in [snorts] your case I could see you like tackling some really crazy challenge that you're accepting but doing it live streamed on Netflix in the way that Alex Honold climbed the Taipei 101 tower so that it becomes a water cooler moment for the globe. And that's maybe something that you couldn't do on your own. Like there can be situations in which that makes sense for you and you can continue to be this independent creator and dip into this other world when it makes sense and both parties are benefiting mutually from that. >> I think there's just so much to learn from from them. I mean, we are fortunate to get to draw from decades of Hollywood history of how to technically make a piece come to life on video. And I anytime we get to collaborate in any capacity with with a production company or a studio, it excites me because I get to learn. >> Um, and I think what's exciting is it seems like these parties are excited to learn from us, too. >> Yeah. And in the meantime, you get to do productions where you can tap into the craft community and maybe get the guy who's been assisting the famous cinematographer and say, "You've been doing this long enough. I'm going to let you shoot this." [laughter] You know, give it letting people like level up in their in their kind of uh you know, ascension of of jobs. Um and giving them the opportunity that maybe it's going to take longer in that in that other world for them to get, >> right? And that's part of just creating a creative space that provides value to the artists who are contributing to the work. >> So where where is this going? Like what is your forecast for not for you personally, but just looking at the media landscape like 5 years from now, 10 years from now? What does it look like? >> I think that we're going to continue to see more exclusive deals with creators made with streamers. And I think it's going to be really interesting to see what this first swath of creators come up with in in those deals and how they parlay their audiences into new IP new shows and how people respond. Um, and we've seen so far like Mark Robber's Crunch Lab show was at the top of Netflix. Jordan and Sish Matters uh stuff was at the top. Um, and obviously Beast Games performed really well too. And I think when we see these larger creators proving that it works, it opens the door for medium and smaller creators. And I hope that what happens is that rather than it being YouTube's over here and traditional is over here and sometimes we throw a stone across the playground to each other >> that it's a bit more free flowing. I also hope because of incredible people like Kane Parsons and Curry Barker that we can see people on YouTube as holistic 360 creators more than just we'll put this person in our show and give them a line because their audience will come and watch it. I think that's actually was a failure of Hollywood probably like 5 to 10 years ago was this influx of we're just going to insert YouTubers into roles on shows and movies and I don't know if that was fully successful you know it doesn't work because they're seeing the creator as a marketing vehicle instead of a creative contributor to the project. Um, and because we're seeing proof of concept with these bigger creators of their creative is resonating with big streaming audiences, too. No surprise cuz it resonates with millions and millions of people on YouTube. Um, I hope that we can see creators as uh great producers, as great directors, as great showrunners um for many different types of media. Part of the allure for somebody who has a creative ambition with respect to YouTube is you can open it up and you can see people doing something that feels like something you could do like think of Marcus Brownley's early earliest videos where it's just you know like they're very homegrown but now with the maturation of the space and the professionalism that we're starting to see and the indistinguish wishable nature of shows like yours and Cleo Abram from television. Do you think about how that impacts the young person who's thinking about jumping into this world? Like now it seems harder, you know, it's like, well, I can't how am I going to do what Michelle's doing? Like for it just seems as inaccessible as going into a studio and pitching a television show to NBC. But what's beautiful I think about um someone like Cleo or Johnny Harris, any of these people we've been talking about is that's if their career says otherwise. Their career was not pitching it in in in that system to make it come to life. It was the slow growth from the beginning. Um, and I also think uh by contrast of channels like Outdoor Boys that have, you know, 19 20 million views per video and it is still that very raw barebones approach. It it reminds me of like in the mid 2000s when there was Prestige HBO and there's also Micro's Dirty Jobs. both have devote devoted and and um committed audiences though and both exist on television. Um though the experience is very different. >> Yeah. What's >> what's consistent though is that you can go back and watch the first stuff. So you can it's like >> your whole career is on is on tape, you know, like like it would be as if like this is true no matter what career you're in. Like when you start out, you don't know what you're doing and you're bumbling around and you make mistakes and you figure it out and you maybe you get fired and you get a different job and you slowly blah blah blah blah blah like and then you figure out what what you're good at and you build a life around that. But on YouTube you can see the whole thing, you know? So if you are intimidated uh by like what Michelle's doing like go back and watch your first videos and see that evolution, [laughter] right? You don't want people to do that. But it might make it easier for somebody to say, "Oh, it didn't happen overnight. It happened over all of these years, and I can see the growth and how she improved with each one." And that's a lesson in and of itself. >> For sure. And it is easy to say now. I will acknowledge that. But I am so grateful for those early days of doing it all myself because now and we talk about this in our team that the best leaders and department heads have worked every position under them >> because now I know how to speak with an editor or a sound mixer or um and and help make their job easier. Um, and I think like that helps people respect the leaders they're working for. >> Yeah. In the traditional film making system, what's interesting is that, you know, the director who's technically in charge of the creative vision is generally the least experienced person on the set, >> which is cool >> because they only get to do it like every so many years. And so many directors are firsttime directors and they surround themselves with all these people who are really good at their jobs who have been doing this for decades and they just go from set to set to set and that director has to command the respect of a crew that knows a lot more about what they're trying to do than the guy who's in charge or the woman who's in charge. >> Yeah. I mean, we've all experienced having a a manager who has never done the job they're asking you to do and the tension that comes with that. >> So, yeah, I think like that's what makes like Garrett, for example, in my opinion, a really good director cuz he's edited, he has done lighting, he's filmed, he still films. I I think that connection to all parts of the production process um ultimately makes you a better creator too. >> What have you learned about consistently and consciously placing yourself outside of your comfort zone to confront your fears? Like what is the message that you want people to feel and understand about that? What is the value in doing that? >> The fear never goes away. It's like cold plunging. It's always [laughter] going to be cold. >> Yeah. >> The fear never goes away. Um, but what you can get better at is systematically understanding how to approach it every time. So, as we said at the beginning of the conversation, I'm a pretty anxious person. I when I'm going off to do one of these challenges, I'm I'm just as worried as everybody else watching of, have we thought of everything? am I prepared enough? Um, but the thing that I can control is educating myself, preparing myself. And so that is what I have gotten better at for sure is over time consistently approaching fear. Just knowing, okay, it's going preparing myself. It's going to be painful. It's going to be uncomfortable. I'm going to be embarrassed. None of that will ever change. And what is the call to action to the audience member or the person who has a different relationship with their own fears? Like why why walk through this fear? Like what is somebody going to get out of it? How are they going to be transformed on the other side of of of that confrontation? like you've done this so many times and you know how it goes and what what you feel like on the on the at the conclusion of one of these experiences. >> It doesn't always get easier. But the gratification and growth on the other side is just truly unmatched. That if you are truly pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, there is no option but to grow. There really isn't. It's the only way to achieve growth and it is inevitable. Even if you fail in the ultimate goal that you had originally, there will be a learning if you if you approach it appro appropriately. And so I just wish more people did it. I wish more people stepped outside of their daily lives and tried something new. I think it makes the world more empathetic. Um and I think it makes people better. And so with challenge accepted, I do hope people get to empathetically rehearse bravery and ultimately the real impact is if they go off in their own life and just change one small thing um and try something just a little bit different. >> I would imagine you must have so much self-confidence though because you've done so many crazy hard things. hanging off an airplane, running the seven marathons on seven continents and like do dropping in in all these like high-risk, high stress environments and then kind of seeing yourself through. You must think like, oh, I can I can do this. I can do that. Yeah, it's a little scary, but like I have this track record of being able to like manage myself. >> Well, that goldilock capability that you must [laughter] feel like >> Goldilock zone continues to grow as I try new things. Um, I will be a little bit confident when I finish a challenge and then the next week I'll learn something new and immediately go right back to rock bottom of humility. >> What's the thing that scares you the most? Is there a challenge that you're like, "No, that's too scary. I'm not doing that." >> I probably won't be climbing Everest. >> Uhhuh. >> But I'll say that because I'm actually driven more by the story than necessarily the the fear or the accolade. Um, to me, Everest is something it's a story that's been told. It's been told many, many times. Many people have done it, and I don't at this point in in my life know the additive nature of what I would be doing to make it different or interesting. Um, and I think I'm compelled by doing um by creating stories that are additive, even if they're following in the footsteps of what some has done. Um, I want to find my own spin to it. Um, also I don't like being cold. >> You [laughter] don't like being cold? That's the reason to do it though. >> Yeah, that's true. That's true. That's true. Um, >> the uh [laughter] the Tom Cruz Mission Impossible uh film that you did uh ends with a cliffhanger. >> Um, can you talk about can you share what that cliffhanger is? Sorry, spoilers. And like where we're at with that right now. >> Okay. Yes. So, after completing, spoiler alert, the plane hang stunt, um we had a goal of convincing the Burge Khalifa to let me climb it to homage um the other famous stunt from Mission Impossible that Tom Cruz did where he performed some incredible repelling stunts off the side of this building. >> Is that the suction cup one or that? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. With the suction cups or the glove that like the battery died on the glove, right? Yeah. So, we had um we put together this incredible plan um and just for fun at the end of the episode, we had this cheeky little call to action for our audience. And what I wasn't expecting was uh a few days later, I went on the Instagram account for the Burj Khalifa, the tallest building in the world, and it was filled with comments from our audience that just said, "Let her climb." Hundreds of these comments. And I'm sitting there like, "Oh my gosh, this poor social media manager is probably like, who is her? >> Who climbing what?" >> Um, and we we make and we spent quite a while making contacts and moving forward there. As of right now, it's not going to happen. But >> that's what you say. You're you're [laughter] unreliable narrator. >> But I think that's the spirit of challenge accepted is like you've got to vocalize something crazy and put yourself out there. And technically as of right now it it was a failed attempt. You know, it it it it did not go through. But I I love just manifesting wild things out into the air. And >> this is also your sweet spot. like how do you overcome the no? >> Yeah. All right. Well, the tallest building in the world, uh, it's not going to happen right now, but what else can we come up with that's equally exciting? And the the win and the exciting part was just seeing how many people were thrilled to to potentially see it happen. >> I know that at one point they said no because they didn't think that you like were influential enough or something like you didn't have a large enough command commanding a large enough audience. But is this latest no a different no? Like no, we're it's not safe. >> That's true. No, that's true. They've only let a handful of very influential people um stand a top the Birch Khalifa, which was part of our request. And to that I say bet, please subscribe to the channel. So we [laughter] >> Okay. Yeah. >> But yeah, I mean that was also like the same spirit of us vocalizing. We're going to go for an Emmy. That sounds crazy for an independent YouTube channel who's not a studio show to try and do. And I, you know, at the time of this recording, we don't know what the results will be, but >> I I think being brave enough to say it out loud is step one to confronting the fear and the obstacle of what's to come. Um, and that's something I struggled with a lot uh before all of this. And now it's it's if you say it out loud sometimes you're surprised with how many people come to that calling and are say I want to help. I want to support let me see who I know in Dubai. Let let me let me see what's possible. >> Um and that journey is is really exciting. >> I mean that's the story right part of the story. It's like okay we got to know like all right where where do we go from here? Like >> and then you're equally as revved up as an audience. Oh, we going want to get that. Yes. >> See how excited you are about the No. >> I'm so excited. >> The other challenge that I've heard you talk about uh that I want an update on is is tightroppe walking the Grand Canyon. >> Yeah, this is a newer one. >> Okay. [laughter] Um, this is a newer one and again a great example of sounds crazy as a stunt, but the reason why it is compelling and interesting to me specifically is so I would like to attempt to become the first woman to tie a rope walk across the Grand Canyon. I find this fear very fascinating to confront because unlike the plane stunt which is you have to have bravery and you have to train and you strap yourself to it and and get through the flight. >> But this is a challenge where it's truly a manifestation of the metaphor of taking a step forward every single time towards the fear. It's a it's the most clear physical manifestation of willing your body to step forward through that. Um and so I think it's a very interesting exploration of that type of bravery. But yeah, we have uh begun we've contacted the canyon. >> Um we've begun permitting. Can I tell you something crazy about filming at the Grand Canyon? We learned [gasps] that to film in the Grand Canyon, you have to do a biological assessment of the land for endangered species because there is one species of endangered cactus that flowers I think once a year. >> And they have to make sure that the place we are anchoring the tightroppe to doesn't have this cactus next to it. >> Wow. >> So, these are the conversations that uh that we're we're in right now. My palms are sweating right now, by the way, just thinking about this. >> It's so fun because uh I did an episode a couple years ago where I joined a traveling circus. So, for this episode, we actually went back to the traveling circus and I met with the ring master to tell him about this idea and hear his reaction and um his his palm started sweating too. [laughter] >> Yeah. I mean, this is that's crazy talking. I'm thinking I'm also that reminds me of Evil Conval, but it also reminds me of that amazing documentary of the guy who what was the guy's name who tightroppe walked between the Twin Towers in New York. >> Oh my gosh. Man on Wire. >> Yeah. Man on Wire. >> Yeah. Yeah. An incredible documentary. I mean that I think that image of um of that walk which is on the poster that is like our thesis image for this project. It's got the long the long bar the pole that he's carrying. Yeah. >> So we're very early on on that project. Um again something that might not happen but we have said pretty crazy things and then they happen. It just takes time. >> Yeah. So on some level you are playing like okay it's getting crazier. It's getting you know like these are you're notching up the risk level. But then next week I am filming a video where in one day I'm going to attempt to in a flight simulator land a 737 without training. >> Now that's a fascinating project. >> Nathan Fielder going to be there coaching. >> I wish I love [laughter] Nathan Fielder. I wish. Um but I that project's interesting to me because uh I think you know a vast majority of people believe um according to some study that they could land a plane if called upon to do so >> um on a commercial airline. So I'm going to find out if I could land this plane. >> And that's much training in advance of that. You're going to go right into the sim and be like I don't know what these buttons are but I'm going to land this giant plane. It will it it'll be a situation as if uh everyone is incapacitated on the plane except for you. >> I see. >> And I have to go in, put a headset on and communicate with air traffic control. >> I see. And they're going to talk you through it. >> Yes. Which is a scenario air traffic apparently, >> right? I mean, this is a real scenario that could happen. >> It could happen. [clears throat] Um but yeah, that's a very safe contained. we're going to be in a simulator shooting it in a day and it could have just as much impact as any of these other things. So, >> different things impact different people and I love being pleasantly surprised with the 911 dispatch episode. Who's going to watch me talk on the phone for 10 minutes? 15 million people cared about it and it mattered in a way that even I, as someone who was so intimately involved with the project, couldn't have foreseen. So, I always welcome that. I'm You know, >> you never know what people connect with. >> Well, you're a Red Bull athlete now, so there's nothing that you can't do, Michelle. >> We'll see. >> Like, you're an official Red Bull athlete. >> Well, I'm a Red Bull creator and there's a difference between the two, >> but uh I think the Red Bull athletes are very cool. >> Do you have Did they give you the Red Bull like bicycle helmet and like all the stuff? >> I did not. I those are reserved for athletes only. >> Oh, come on. They [laughter] can give they can cough one of those up for you. >> I I I uh you know I'm I'm just really grateful because >> I think 10 years ago I applied to be a Red Bull athlete when I was a cyclist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I was a cyclist, >> I found some obscure email address on the website and I sent in this application I put together. I actually like dug it up um last year when we when we made the announcement about me being a creator because I I was like I I I need to find this. >> Yeah. I applied promptly promptly rejected. Um, and I'm again another good example of I think if I had just gone down only the athlete path, I would have missed out on this whole beautiful thing of of of uh experiencing many ways of athletically living life. And so I love getting to be a Red Bull creator. I mean, it's so cool. It's it's um I mean, it's just a dream to get to collaborate with them, especially cuz I it was my dream sponsor 10 years ago. >> Yeah. Well, speaking of cycling and Tom Cruz, not that we were meant welding [laughter] these together. Um, do you know who Kate Courtney is or do you follow cycling at all? >> I love K. Did you see what she uh >> She just won national championships like only 6 months after deciding like maybe I'll try riding a bike on the road and not on trails. >> Yeah. >> And just like crush that race. It's insane. >> I was following the whole time. I was so excited for her. But she had a Tom Cruz experience also. >> Yes. >> Did you know that they filmed that where he parachuted on, you know, like or when he like the Hollywood sign like where he landed there and like he passed the baton onto her when she was riding by on her bike. >> So cool. >> So that just tells me that the universe is saying that you and Kate need to figure out something to do together. >> Oh, we do. We We had lunch together a couple months ago before she went to do Cape Epic. I I just think she's the coolest. >> She's the bomb. Yeah. Yeah. She um I mean talk about someone with laser precision on their goal. >> She could do whatever she decides to do. [laughter] She could be running anthropic or you know like I mean she's one of the most capable people. It's in she's really extraordinary. Yeah. >> But you there's a shared DNA here. I'm not surprised you had lunch with her. >> I love her. Um, what is your counsel to the young creative person who's dreaming of a career like yours or just expressing themselves creatively? Where does that person begin? How should they think about their relationship to craft and you know setting aside like the business aspects of it just like the pure creative expression part of the job? For the pure creative expression part of the job, I think it's about studying what has come before. Something that's cool about brainstorms for challenge accepted is, you know, people will come to a brainstorm and reference Apple TV's Widow's Bay, Survivor 50, and a meme on Tik Tok last week. Like that that can all be in the same conversation because inspiration comes from everywhere. And so I think it's important to understand the history of visual medium and just by watching it doesn't mean going to film school necessarily >> and then participating in it. We're so lucky to live in an era where the only barrier to entry is the upload button. There's kind of no excuse to making something. And where I see a lot of young creatives getting hung up is they get stuck on the the full plan. Here's the series. here's the the the full plan for 20 episodes. I'm like, "No, just just make one and see what that if that works because you'll probably change it 30 times before episode two." And I think people can get caught in this perfectionism, which is really just a paralysis >> uh uh uh allowing anything to happen. Like you have to be willing to put something up there, take the data from it, and move on. And I find among our peers that the people who are just willing to uh rel say done is better than perfect sometimes arrive at that format much faster than people who try to crack the format in the show from nothing. >> Who inspires you? What were your inspirations [clears throat] when you were starting and and who inspires you now? The people that inspired me I think in the beginning were Minnie Kaling because I saw her as someone who also went to Dartmouth. I mean she is such a titan of of female Indian creative voice really making impact intergenerationally. And with challenge accepted a lot of the people I look up to are people like Jeff Probes. Um >> he's your guy. >> Yeah Jeff. [snorts] I I could write a college dissertation on Jeff probes and how in hosting. >> How many years has he been doing it >> since 2000? 26. So 26 years. So I I think what he has done um helming a project for that length of time without distraction and really inventing and reinventing constantly is so admirable. in addition to the fact that he's just a phenomenal host. I mean, you watch him manage a tribal council and the way he is able to maintain neutrality while also progressing the plot because that's the role of a host on a show like that is to progress the plot for the audience. And I think, you know, someone might say, why why does why is a host needed for a show like that? And I I think it's because when you watch the contestants at the island in reality, you see who they are behind closed doors and whispering to each other. >> But what you see at Tribal Council, masterfully conducted by Jeff is who are the contestants in front of an audience. And the dichotomy of those two things actually tells you a two-part holistic story to the contestants journey. I'm obsessed with this stuff. So, um, >> so Mindy Kaling, >> Jeff Probes, >> um, David Blaine, I think, is I'm not a magician, but, um, I think his ability to hold presence and, as we were discussing earlier, go into hiding and then emerge with something truly fantastic is really admirable. Um, and I mean, just as an endurance performer, what he has done is really one of one. So I love people who have crafted their own nucleus of one of one. >> Yeah. There's the fear that you confront in the challenge that ends up on screen, but there's also the fear that you're walking through with respect to how you're assembling the pieces behind the scenes in order to even be able to do the challenge. And you talked a lot about this with Tim Ferrris, like how do you like when you're trying to like execute some idea that involves getting the FBI on board like >> right >> there's [laughter] the fear of like who do I contact and like how am I going to talk to these people and convince them to get on board and I think you put on like a master class on like how to craft the cold email and how to like sort of talk to people and get them excited about your idea. in the same way that you are. So, people should all go listen to that or or watch that um because I don't think we should replicate that. But I do want you to talk a little bit about that part of the fear like the fear that you have to confront in order to confront the the bigger fear that is the onscreen fear. >> I'll tell you an example from this week. We are working on a project where if successful we are going to fly a house with helium balloons as we have seen in one of our favorite >> Pixar Pixar movie. Oh my god. [laughter] >> We're going to do that in real life. >> Like a real house. >> Yeah. With balloon. >> It will like it will be a a structure that looks like a house. Yes. >> Um flown exclusively with helium balloons. So, no jet propulsion, no hot air >> from where to where. >> Um, we're still working out those details. But when you do something like that, we're in a room. We're like, "All right, who do we who do we need to call first? Can we find a helium balloon expert? Oh, there's someone who exists who specializes in that." Um, oh, we should call the FAA because we're going to be flying. We We need the We need a special license. I think it's What is it called? I'm going to forget. Uh, oh my gosh. It's called an experimental aircraft license. >> Uhhuh. [laughter] >> And we had we had to get it for the Tom Cruz project where it just means you're putting something weird in the sky. >> Um, and I think like there's a beautiful part of that brainstorming where you hear a project like that, you might assume even watching a big TV show do that that someone just manifests and figures it out cuz it's a big studio doing it. And what I've learned meeting a lot of producers who work on big studio things, it's the same process of you sit in a room and go through your rolodex and think about who do I know who knows somebody. And so >> there's one person who's got to figure out who you're going to call. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think you have to have uh like accept the grassroots part of it. I'm sure you've seen this too, Rich. Like a lot of great business opportunities happen when you just text somebody that you know. It's not this big manufactured thing of this team coming to this conference room to meet people. It's real warm relationships and asking genuine questions. So, uh like when I cold called the FBI, I just think like most people are too afraid to even pick up the phone and and use their voice to try. And a lot of those cold calls and cold emails are often unanswered, but they lead us in the right direction of where to go next. Um, so what I I would say to to the next generation of storytellers is there's never really, in my opinion, going to be a point when it's like when I get to this level, all of these other things are handled for me. I think when you are leading a project, when you're leading a company, when you're leading a team, there's always going to be something that you have to put your boots on and and do it and accept that that's part of the process and don't have an ego about it. Um, [snorts] is there an ultimate bucket list challenge that maybe exceeds your capacity to execute right now, but one day you hope to be able to do that you're willing to share or or would that be even if you have one, is that something you would want to keep quiet? >> Something I've been thinking about more and that I can improve on is diversifying the ways that we can impact people. Something I've been excited about lately is actually helping other companies and other people with the projects they're on and and >> bringing the things that I know over there. >> I think that's the next step and that's the white space because your videos leave all of us inspired and with uh a hopefulness and an elevated sense of our own possibility. But then where do we where do we how do we channel that? And you're like an operations person. You're a systems person. Like how do you take that energy and put it into some kind of template or program where people are given the tools to actually access and and and begin to like practice that, you know? >> What should I do, Rich? >> I don't. >> What would you do if you were me? >> I mean, I think Well, listen, first of all, like Kate, Courtourtney, you can do whatever you want and you will be successful. So, you don't need to ask. >> I'm gonna go into business. I think you know better than than I do. Um, but I would imagine that uh you know the corporate world would love to hear how uh they can train their workforces to be better teams because you have such a good sense of the importance of team building and leadership and also the relationship with fear and how that plays out in the workforce and with the average person. How do we change our relationship with fear so that we can have a healthier relationship with our own growth and evolution and transformation? So, it's that fear piece of walking people up to the ledge of confronting their own fears because this is what you're consistently practicing and modeling for the world. And then we're like, okay, I should do that, but like how? >> A few people have asked me about writing a book, but it scares me. I don't think I can sit with my thoughts for that long, [laughter] Rich. I think >> Well, first of all, I don't have to tell you that that means that this is a challenge you should accept. >> Oh my god. >> I don't know if it'll make for a good video. Probably be a really boring video. Like, I'm afraid of writing a book and now I'm going to book is worth it in the year in this year. >> I think it depends. Uh, I think that for someone in your wi with your stature and your kind of lot in life right now, it would be very easy for you to get a book deal and then sort of pawn it off on a on a ghost writer and have them churn out some book that probably will hit the New York Times bestseller, but might not be a great book and might not um really reflect what you're capable of sharing. Uh, at the same time, I think that you probably have an amazing book in you, but it's a book that you're going to have to write, you know, and you're not going to be able to just like give it to somebody else and have them do the work for you. But if you decide that that is something that is worthy of your investment of time and it's not easy and it's painful and long and all that kind of stuff, uh, I think that there's something not only amazing that could come from that, but also durable. Like I do think that even in this age of you know advancing AI that there is something um special about books in terms of their lasting capacity to impact people. I still like every day get messages about finding ultra which I wrote like 14 years ago. So it would be unusual to get daily feedback on a video you made 14 years ago. Um, you know, maybe if you made a movie or a television show, but there is something about books, just the physical media aspect of it alone that withstand the test of time in our kind of recycled world of content churn where everything you're looking at was uploaded the day before. >> Sometimes I don't know what additive I could bring to the space. Obviously, the experiences I've had are unique, but some of the tactics, I mean, I I learned from Tim Ferrris, from Adam Grant, from Kim, all of these incredible other um organizational thought leaders. >> Sure. And Adam Grant learned from XYZ, and Tim learned from XYZ. >> Adam has a research lab, and he figures it out all himself with his subjects. [laughter] >> These are these are uh convenient excuses to not have to confront this fear. Michelle, >> I don't want to. >> But I will say maybe it's not the time yet. Um >> I feel I'm not saying you should do it now. I feel like I'm still a student, >> but there will become a time. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. I think you could if you wanted to write a book right now, you could write an excellent book. It would come out. It would do amazing. I think people want to like go behind the curtain. They don't nec I wouldn't write a book about just here's all the crazy stuff I did. It would be more like what are the videos not showing and what are the lessons that you've learned that don't lend themselves to showing up in a video but are have some kind of veilance that would be helpful to somebody who is struggling in their life. >> Okay. >> Um and maybe you just need to, you know, bake that cake a little bit longer. But there is something there. And I would encourage you at the at the at the time that's right for you to explore that. >> I I think I have a pretty good sense on what would make a great episode of TV or YouTube video or short form piece. What for you is that gut instinct of that's a good idea for a book. How do you know? >> When I can't stop thinking about it, but I didn't think I was going to write another book. I was pretty convinced I wasn't until finally I kind of landed on something I wasn't expecting to that um became like unshakable. But I haven't written a book for 14 years for a reason. >> Why? >> Because nothing nothing inspired me enough [laughter] to you know basically uh you know tolerate the blood, sweat, and tears that it takes. Like it's super hard. >> Mhm. Um, so you have to really you have to want it and it has to be an idea that you feel deeply that you deeply need to share because otherwise you're going to end up going through the motions. Um, but I think that I think that there there's hidden gifts for you there. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Thank you for the wisdom. And I'm not saying you need to do it now again, like when when the time is right for you and when you feel like you have an idea that you're ready to express, >> okay? >> And you'll know when that time comes, just like you know when this is the next video that I'm going to make. >> That is so wise. Thank you. >> You're welcome. I'm glad that I was able to help you. I don't know if I did. You're the one who's inspiring me right now. You're leading the charge. Um, it was an absolute delight to have you here and uh I just I wish you the best and I can't wait to see your next video and to see what you're going to do. You're just bubbling with enthusiasm and motivation and inspiration and you're having a real impact on the world and I salute you, Michelle, and appreciate you spending time with me today. >> Well, thank you for inspiring me so much, Rich, and for inviting me into your world. It's crazy to see what's on the other side of this black void. By the way, I just assumed it was a 360 black void. There's other stuff over there, guys. >> There's people. There's people over there, too. >> Um, this has been such a joy exploring this. Um, and maybe next time, uh, we'll be able to have lunch together, and Oprah won't be invited to that lunch. >> Okay. [laughter] >> I would love to have lunch with you. >> Okay, great. Let's [music] do that. Um, thanks, Michelle. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Peace.