Michael Cohen Opens Up | PBD 728

The words the media should be using to describe Mr. Trump are generous, kind, honest, and genuine. >> He was the ultimate loyalist. >> It's not a question of flip. It's a question of answering questions. >> You flip though. >> It's not a flip. >> Michael, you went on every single channel. You talk negatively about the president. >> The man who once said he'd take a bullet for Donald Trump. >> The only time I would not if he's the one that was pulling the trigger. I plead guilty in federal court to felonies for the benefit of individual number one. And for the record, individual number one is President Donald J. Trump. >> Ex-Trump attorney Michael Cohen says New York prosecutors pressured him to target President Trump. >> I would never have testified. I didn't want to. And you've been cancelled now by both sides. >> They started getting 20,000 people telling them if Michael Cohen remains on the network, we're unsubscribing. My audience will say, "Are you back in his camp? Are you bending the knee?" I almost can't say anything. But >> he chose that job. That comes with the territory. >> So, there's probably two communities watching this saying, "Why would Michael Cohen go on the PBD podcast?" And number two, why would we have Michael Cohen on the podcast today after he just got fired by Midas Touch? They cut his show and we started talking. We've been talking for about almost two years because I wanted to get him on to talk about some of the decisions that he made. And it was very uncomfortable in certain moments, very awkward in certain moments, but he was very open. He said some things that I did not think he was going to say. I asked him a question. I said, "Who do you trust and who trusts you? You will be very surprised by the answer he gave." And he got emotional when he gave the answer. I said, "Do you want a pardon from the president? You know, which side do you trust more, the left or the right? You've been attacked by both sides. Which one is worse?" And he was very frank and very open about it. Right before we were going live, he was doing a talk for 100 universities, some of the biggest universities, Yale being one of them, to tell him how to handle the lawsuit, how to deal with the president. He opens up and talks about that. Of course, he told a lot of stories behind the scenes with the president. And you'll see a moment, even an initiative that he's wanting to share on why he may want to go to the White House and sit down and talk to the president. This is Michael Cohen, President Trump's lawyer, wants to go and talk to the president. You're going to watch this and I don't know how you're going to process this, but I think by the time it's over, you're going to say, "This is definitely the last thing I would have thought for Michael Cohen to do on this show on PBD podcast." With that being said, enjoy the interview. Who is Michael Cohen? Did you ever think you would make it? I feel so I could taste sweet. >> Adam, what's your point? >> The future looks bright. >> My handshake is better than anything I ever signed right here. >> You are a oneonone. >> My son's right. >> I don't think I've ever said this before >> all the time. So, but I if there's one thing I will tell you while the audience is watching this, they're probably surprised that you're sitting here. Like, if there was any anywhere you would be on a podcast right now, your audience is probably surprised you're here. And my audience going to say >> my audience would kill me. >> That's exactly what I'm saying that that you're sitting here. So, but uh I got a lot of questions, a lot of things I want to go through. And by the way, it's important that the audience knows nothing is off the table. You get to choose to answer whatever way you want. And I'm going to ask my questions. But something happened right before we got live. you were doing an interview that I asked you if you're comfortable sharing with the audience. So the the the head of Yale asked you to speak to 100 presidents of different universities. Why? >> Yeah. So it's uh Jeffrey Sonnenfeld. He's the head of the Yale University Business School. I've known Jeff for a while. I speak at Yale several times a year at Jeffrey's bequest. He brought in a hundred university presidents and the question that they were discussing. The topic was how to deal with Donald Trump as it relates to being the head of a university. >> As we all know, Trump is right now in litigation with Harvard. When I say Trump, I'm talking about the United States of America with Trump being, of course, the president. There's litigation against Harvard based upon a multitude of issues from DEI to uh gender equality and the education that they're providing. But they had, like I said, a hundred uh individuals and they were asking me, "How do you think that we should deal with President Trump in handling this issue?" Because they are right now in a very precarious situation. They do not want to lose the funding, the government funding, which Trump controls and is using as leverage. >> Sure. while simultaneously they want to keep their ability to operate the school in the manner that they deem best and that's a problem. >> What did what feedback did you give them? >> I gave them my recommendation is to settle and settle early because if you don't Trump doesn't stop. He will keep going. He will keep he will keep pushing the envelope farther and farther. So if he starts with say $100 million as a as a payment in exchange for removing the restrictions on the grants, my suggestion, try to water down the poison as much as you can. Maybe get it down to 50 million or 75 million. But if you don't, he and his team will continue to push it. Next thing you know, it's not 100, it's 250. and after 250 it goes to 500 and he keeps the pressure on. That's how we operated at the Trump Organization. See, that's the beautiful thing about Donald Trump. Nothing changes. He's exactly the same. He operates in the same way that he operated at the Trump Organization. He's running the United States. Identical. >> It's It's as if you're already negotiating on his behalf on the fir in the first 30 seconds of our conversation. >> Well, if you say so. What I'm doing is I'm providing them with facts. >> He's going to see this. So, if he sees this, knowing him that he may use this or he may surprise, which one do you think he'll do? Will he change his tune and say, "I don't like the fact that Michael is saying I'm going to do this. I'm going to change it up and I'm going to >> No chance. No chance. >> What do you think he does? >> I say he does the exact same thing that he's doing now. He doesn't change. It's very rare. >> He knows he has all the leverage. He knows, as he says all the time, I control the cards. And as it relates to these university, yeah, >> Donald Trump controls the cards. Now, my audience, my audience will say, "Michael, what the hell is wrong with you? Why are you why are you saying good things about the president? Why are you saying good things about Donald? Are you back in his camp? Are you bending the knee?" Right? Are you looking for something from him? The answer is no. A fact is a fact. Whether you like that fact or you don't, a fact is still a fact. Donald Trump will use whatever leverage and pressure that he can on the universities to get them to capitulate. >> Okay. So, what did they say? What did any of the president can you say which presidents? You told me one of them. So, I don't want to say publicly if you were comfortable saying it. >> You know, I'd rather not only because I don't know what they put out. It's >> top. Let me say let me say this. It's part of the Big 10 and it's one of the Big 10 schools. A very well, very respected school and a very, very respected president. Ask me an incredible question. He we're not there yet >> to settle >> right. And I said to him, do it because there is no benefit to you to hold out. Ultimately, you will pay very much like the law firms did. Why? Because of discovery. Because of what? Because what comes out of >> It's not about the discovery. It's the pressure. Again, they need the money within which to operate. They have all sorts of funding needs. Now, >> Harvard is taking a little bit of a different position as we know. Harvard has the largest endowment, >> massive, 60, 70, 80 billion, >> something like that. And the interest that they earn off of it annually is also massive. Technically, they really don't need the money. doesn't mean that they don't want it. Sure, they just don't need it. So, they have the ability, but many of the hundred schools that Jeffrey Seinfeld had on that um live uh viewing, they don't have the endowments that Harvard has, not even a percentage of it. And so, they need that money, >> the smaller ones, the smaller of the 100. >> Correct. And that's where Trump again has the massive leverage. One of the things that they're interested in doing is maybe acting cumulatively as educational facilities across America within which to try to negotiate some sort of a global deal like almost like a mass tor litigation something like that. Once again once again >> not a you're not saying to flip class action against the White House. No, >> that would be a dumb move. No, it would be a stupid move. What I'm saying is as a group educational that they would come up with some sort of a global settlement with the president in terms of how they are going to operate on a we'll call it department of education basis. >> Got it. It's a bad look for them right now. It's not been a good season. >> At the end of the day, who's the winner in that fight? >> Oh, Trump is. Amen. >> It's not even a question about >> It's not. By the way, that amen by me saying will probably get me again cancelled by many of the far-left. You see, here's the problem. I've never been far left. I am probably a foot left of center. And the problem is, not only do I have, of course, the far right that despise me, I also get tremendous push back from the far left. Because I will not sit here and I will not make up stories about a man who I was in very close with, as close as two people could really be, who are nonfamilial. >> I will not make up lies within which to appease their desires. And so when I state a fact, it's a fact off of my lived experience, my knowledge, not hearsay, not innuendo, just my lived experience. And that gets me in trouble. >> Oh, and it it continues to, but I want to go through this. So to me, who has Michael Cohen's back today? Here's why I asked this question. Of course, in ' 06, when you start working with children, okay, but you know, in ' 06, you're working with them from business side, Trump has your back. >> Then there's a falling out. You flip FBI, time, prison. >> Actually, I hate that word. >> Let me just finish this and you say whatever you want. So then you go to the left, whatever word you want to call it. >> Uh the you're the darling of the left. You know, Jimmy Kimmel has you on, MSNBC, CNN, and everybody has you on. >> Then you go to Midas Touch. And by the way, Midas Touch, their entire uh they even talk about this, their vision, why they started Midas Touch in March of 2020 was to prevent the president from getting reelected. That was their entire mo to get reelected. You have a show with them. I even think you have a show with the one of the founders if I'm not mistaken. His name is Ben if I'm not mistaken. Is that his name? Ben. Right. So, you have a show with them and then you come out and you say the following comments and you said you were compelled and coerced to only provide information and testimony that would satisfy the government's desire to build build the case against and secure a judgment and convictions against Trump. You say this in your Substack, not a crazy thing. This is your opinion against Leticia James and Alvin Bragg. Then we get news that might touch Dropsy. This is 10 or 12 years days ago. Drops fired, cutting away, whatever word they want to use. They fired the podcast and they move on. If you were at any other place, you're not getting fired. So your position today, who has Michael Cohen's back? I want to hear your thoughts. >> My wife, my daughter, my son. >> Okay. >> And those people who are more centrist. I have no issue with Ben or his brothers Brett or Jordy. We're still friends. We still speak. We're just not doing business together. Um, and I understand the reason why they did what they did. They have a very left-leaning constituency. And so they started getting 10,000 20,000 people telling them if Michael Cohen remains on the network, we're unsubscribing. >> Just for that comment. >> Yes, sir. Just for that comment. Now, these people didn't just make that threat, they actually did it. And it was a significant amount of money and they have, as you do, a large payroll. And so I I said, "I understand. I understand. and I have to be me and you have to be you. But we're still friends and we still will remain friends even after this. >> But I have friends who have in the far far left and I have friends who are on the far far right. >> And everyone is entitled to their opinion. I prefer when you give your opinion that it's predicated off of facts, not, you know, something you pull out of your ass. I do prefer that. But everybody has the right. It's the First Amendment. >> I get that. But uh uh you know, CNN uh viewers probably are not fan of Scott Jennings. He didn't get fired. He got a longer contract. Right. >> Right. >> Uh you know, >> I saw Scott Jennings about two weeks ago. >> He's very good at what he does. Scott Jennings to me, I call him the coN because he runs the show there. If without Scott, a lot of people wouldn't be watching uh uh CNN. >> On the other side, they would say that Jessica Tarlov is the COO of Fox 2. She's with Greg Gunfeld and by way what what I'm saying to you is >> kudos to both institutions for not firing a Michael Cohen because to me a a what's a benefit of a Michael Cohen? You're a complicated uh uh uh character to the to the average person, right? So to the left or the right, they're like, "Um, I don't know. Maybe." But what do you do? You at least bring eyeballs, right? You at least going to get to say, "What does this guy have to say?" >> Well, I'm certain that your show is going to do great right now. People are going to be why is why is Patrick having Michael Cohen? I mean, what's wrong with him? Is Patrick turning PBD podcast into a radical left, you know, lunatic show? >> Yeah. Or even bigger, am I going to go, you know, try to uh hire you as a fixer? >> Are you going to be Are you, by the way, that'd be a smart move. Are you >> smart? >> Are you are you already, you know, turning the cheek? Are you already, you know, seeing some demise coming to this administration? No, I actually see the the the opposite. And here's what I see with you because to me, >> you know, when I when I think about you, one thing you have that's very unique with you and uh you probably wouldn't recommend this to the average person, but you've gone through it. So, >> you you're a guy that comes in, you saw what it's like to publicly, you know, you say things about Trump, you know, you're on Jimmy Kimmel, you know, he asks you a question, you know, who is the biggest lowife in that community you're a part of? And you give all these names. You start off with him, his family, Weisenberg. You go through a list of names that you do. >> I'm not sure that was the word that I used, but okay. >> He used the word low life. He said, "Who is the biggest low life?" And you said it starts with that. So, they can play the clip to see it, but I watched the clip I think yesterday or something like that because I'm watching to see how you were used. Okay. So you go there and you're thinking you're making the right move and maybe you still believe that that you you know with Trump you said things publicly and then it was very difficult for him for a season and then the left comes in and then you've been cancelled now by both sides. So for you going through this position, do you sit there and say maybe I shouldn't have done this? Maybe I should have stayed uh you know uh uh with Trump. Maybe I should have stayed that position. Has that thought at all crossed your mind? >> So it's interesting you bring that up. While I was in Otisville, there was a guy, I won't mention his name because I'm sure he listens to your podcast. He knows exactly who he is. Uh, hey Sasha. And um, he turned around, he said to me, "Why don't you just shut up?" He goes, "Chances are the second you get out or even before." >> How long ago was this? >> Well, that was um within the first year that I was there. Y >> he goes, "Trump will pardon you and he'll probably bring you back in. For all you know, you'll end up with a big contract with Fox." First of all, he goes, "You're funny. You're also incredibly w, you know, um, knowledgeable." So, he goes, "You'll probably end up with like some sort of a fox contract." And I said, "No, nothing that I've said is untrue." I said, "I will speak the fact whether it's in favor of Trump or not." Now, I didn't take that advice. From a financial standpoint, probably should I have? Yes. Um, did I? No. Have I been cancelled by both sides? Yes. >> Would you do anything differently specifically with the because to me uh Okay. Well, let me ask a question. >> So, let me give you let me give you a better way to sort of um frame this question. What ended up pushing me into the hands of prosecutors was never my desire. It was never my goal. I never wanted the FBI to raid my home, my hotel that I was staying at, uh, or my law office. I never wanted it. Why did it happen? Well, the Russia hoax. And I've always maintained that the Steel Dossier was [ __ ] Um, I never went to Prague. I've never been to Prague. Um they claimed I had 10 million in cash in Prague to pay off Russian compromise. And so none of it is true. All 13 allegations raised against me were a lie. I went and I saw the president in the Oval Office the very first time I received a request to appear before CIPY, the Senate Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. And I said, "No." I spoke to an attorney by the name of Jay Seculo, who I received through um Sean Hannity, and he said, "It's like an invitation to a wedding or a bar mitzvah or something like that. You don't have to go." I said, "Fine." I typed out a response, "Thank you, but no thank you." They then hit me with a subpoena. And I said to the president, eye to eye, same distance I'm sitting from you. The only difference wasn't a formicah desk. It was the uh Lincoln desk, the Resolute desk. >> I said to him, "Sir, please shut this down. Nothing good is going to come out of this. These are a bunch of animals. I'm telling you." And the advice that he got from those that were around him were it'll be bad. The story will be bad today. If it was happening today in 2025, 2026, Trump would have shut it down. That I know because he understands the power that the presidency has. But he was more concerned. He allowed them to convince him. And that's where it all started. When you're under oath, you don't want a 101 violation. You're not going to lie under oath. Unless, of course, you're a member of Congress, right? Then it's then somehow it becomes permissible. I didn't I wasn't going to lie under oath. They asked me questions. I gave them the answer and that's how I became the darling of the left because what they did is they took specific topics and by the way with all due respect to every single one of your listeners yourself and everybody that's in this gigantic studio same thing that they did to him the same thing they did to me they can do to you and that's my that's my disdain for the system. the system. We are a country of laws, but we're not a country of justice. Depends upon who sits at the level of power determines who ends up getting screwed and who ends up walking. >> They can do to you. Who's they? >> Government, >> the Department of Justice, the judge, the prosecutors. It's all about what they want to advance their care. You know, ask anybody who's been through the system. Here's the first line of horseshit that comes out from a prosecutor's mouth. I have a 98% conviction rate. You're not going to be part of that 2%. Oh, 98%. Well, you must be a genius. How come you and every single prosecutor has a 98% conviction rate? The answer, cuz they control all the levers. They control the whole game. >> Still, >> still. And with me, what happened? I didn't want to testify. I was subpoenaed every single time within which to testify had I not had to testify the first time around. None of this would have gone on. I had no desire within which to And it's not a question. You use the word flip. It's not a question of flip. It's a question of answering questions, responding to question. >> You flip though. It's not a flip, Michael. You flipped. You went on every single channel. You talk negatively about the president. Only when you flip only when you get a benefit from it. >> What benefit have I ever received? In other words, think about the mob. Think about the mob. When they flip on their >> I will tell you. Yeah. >> Okay. What did I get? >> Oh, no. What do you What you got? You didn't get what you wanted. You didn't get. >> What did I want? >> What didn't you want? You didn't want a pardon from Biden. You didn't hope that he would pardon you like like he said, I want to depoliticize the concept of pardoning. And then he ends up pardoning his son and Fouchy and his family and all the J6, you know, committ >> when I asked for that pardon, I was already finished and I was already off paper six years. >> So flipping, you don't do it postf facto, right? I'm not asking for a postmortem uh award. I wanted it. I wanted it early early on, but that wasn't happening. >> So I've sat down with actual mobsters. I've probably done more mob interviews than anybody else in the podcast world. and you talk any one of them, they'll come and talk to me. >> Uh whether it's Sammy Debor when he got out, whether it's Michael Frances, whether it's the late Frank Colada or Philly and I'll give you the list of every one of these guys. >> I'll sit down and talk. No, not at all. It's just guy. It's it's I I enjoy the movies. And so, >> uh uh and I'm in Florida. A lot of these guys end up here, as you know, cuz they they like >> they like the warm weather. >> They like the warm weather. Yes, they do. But flipping is >> You know why they like the warm weather? The ground is easier. >> The ground is easier. >> Sure. To dig up. Makes sense. Yeah, >> makes sense. I like that joke. I think the right people got it faster than I got it. But no, I got it. So, but the uh you know, going back to it, when when we talk about flipping, I want to qualify and isolate this main issue. You're not one of the guys. How many total hours did you spend with the president? >> Oh my god. >> Total hours? >> 50,000. >> Okay, that's a lot of How many people have spent 50,000 hours with them? >> Zero. >> Okay, so you're a guy. >> Maybe Alan. Maybe Alan Weissber, but maybe I I don't think as many. >> Let's say a handful. Let's say a handful. Maybe his son, family, whoever it is. Let's say a handful. Okay. >> So, you go, you know everything in in in a business sense. I'm trusting you. And you're telling the public I would take a bullet for this guy. I think at what age you read Art of the Deal twice? You were 15 or 16 years old. I don't know what it was. You were young. >> So, the Art of the Deal came out in 1987. I was a sophomore in college. >> College. Okay. And you I think you said you read it a couple times. >> Twice. >> So, this is a guy you looked up to since you were a kid coming up. Correct. >> So, you ended up working for this guy. >> Yes. >> You're in there. >> In there. >> I don't have it prepared, but if I wanted to tell my guys in the next six hours to create the clips of every time you defamed him, they can come up with hundreds. Yes. >> Well, I don't know about the word defamed, but I would say extremely negative things about him. >> Low life is pretty negative. >> Oh, you're right. >> Yeah. Low life is pretty negative. So, it's not like I don't want to play. >> By the way, with all due respect, think about how many times she said that about me, too. >> But there's a difference, though. Here's the difference and I will tell you what the difference is. I >> if in in the power structures of the world, okay, in any in a especially with him, New York, you guys go by a different rule than, you know, Toledo or or Mesa, Arizona or Glendo, California. It's a different rule in New York. New York is tough in business. New York real estate is tough. So, when you're playing it, you have to know in the power structure, I'm the boss, him, >> and you're my right-hand guy. for me. I expect 100% that you have my back. >> I get that. But was what was the moment where you were kind of like >> uh were you hoping for a job? Were you hoping to get something that maybe you didn't get? And then was the pressure from the other side so much that maybe someone from that administration came in and said, "Michael, if you do XYZ, we will protect you. We will have your back. We will get you a job. You'll be taken care of." Because that's typically things that happen. That's not how it happened. So what happened? Okay. Uh, can we we have to break that down into think because the timeline is all over, right? It's like from the year of Gimmel all the way to the end of the earth in terms of the timeline you just set up. I received exactly what I asked President-elect Trump for. There was all this [ __ ] about he wanted Michael wanted to be chief of staff. That's not true. What I wanted, Mr. Trump gave to me. Personal attorney to the president of the United States of America. When I tell you I was honored with that title, I was honored he gave it to me. It was one of the few times in my life other than when my children were born. I had tears in my eyes. Tears. I was like, "Thank you, sir. That's exactly what I want. I want to be chief of staff. How could I monetize that position as chief of staff? I don't want to live in DC. I lived in DC for four years. My son was a senior in high school. My daughter was a senior in college. My son was a ball player playing actually for Hanks Yanks, the high school travel baseball team for the New York Yankees. He had triyouts with the with the um Chicago White Socks, with the Yankees, the Mets. You know, as a young boy, I wanted to be there for every single game. And in fact, if I can just tell a good story about Trump, and I've told the story many times, it's not as if I only said bad things about him. I also said some positive things about him. But you're not wrong when you say I told Trump was a baseball player when he was at Nima, New York Military Academy. And how do I know that? By coincidence, I end up speaking to his coach who actually also had to be like the general over there at New York Military Academy. He says, "I'd love to come and speak to Donald because the school is going to be for sale and I'd like Donald to buy it." So keep Nima going. He comes in, little guy, right? But rock solid and typical what you would say. He's, as Trump would say, he goes, he was central casting. Trump goes, "Michael, keep him away. Michael, keep him away from me." I said, "Why, boss?" So, he goes, "He once smacked me so hard in the head. He hit me upside the head so hard." He goes, "Sometimes when I think about it, I still get a headache." And I was like, "Really?" So, he goes, "I sure did." And so on. And he and he did. He goes, "But I will tell you, Donald was the best baseball player. He was an incredible hand eye coordination as a as a hitter and as a fielder." And I said, "No, no kidding. Really?" So he goes, "Yeah." So he goes, "He was a great baseball player." Donald got a chance to know, of course, my children quite well. Um, especially, you know, my son. And he loved the fact that he was a baseball player, but not just a baseball, he was a really good baseball player. Uh, in fact, the time I was allegedly in Prague, we were in LA, uh, where my son had a try out with the USC Trojans. Another time he was here at Miami where he ended up going to school at the University of Miami. He wanted to play, uh, for the Miami um, Hurricanes. Didn't happen because of everything that happened. He ended up a little bit with the Yips. To anybody in baseball knows what the yips is, it's where psychologically it just throws you off. It's almost like, you know, one day you're pitching a no hitter and the next day you can't hit the strike zone. It's um it's a real condition. But Trump always said, "Even if I need you, I'm not going to bother you when you're at the game with your kid. Not going to I'm not going to take you away from that." He appreciates sports. In fact, he's actually quite knowledgeable in all sports much much much more than I. And I always appreciated that from him, you know, and it was more than just a few games. I don't have to tell you, you know, uh because it's truncated into a short period, but he was always great. >> So, you're his right-hand guy, right-hand lawyer, and when you're at the game, he's not bothering you. >> No, unless it was an emergency, and then, you know, he was like, just when you get back, you know, just come straight over. And sometimes that would mean come over to the apartment or I'll meet you down in the office or just we would spend hours on the telephone, you know, dealing with an issue. What part of his relationship with you, the 50,000 hours, do you miss the most? >> All of it. >> You miss all of it. >> All of it. So, I see your expression. Same expression Todd Blanch had when I was on trial sitting in that witness box. He said, "You hate Donald Trump, don't you?" I said, "No, sir." So, he goes, "What do you mean?" He said, "In fact, I love the guy." So, he goes, >> "Loved or love?" >> Love I still love. >> Present present. I'm still insanely angry with him for allowing others to interfere with the relationship. And I don't care. Look, we all know one thing about Trump. He will never apologize even when he knows he made a mistake. He will not. It's just not in his nature. Some people can, some people can't. He cannot. But I know in his heart of hearts, he knows he made the mistake on allowing them to convince him to abandon me. You use the mob experience as sort of a way of he's the boss, call me a cappo, right? I'm a maid guy in we'll call it Trump land. When there's an issue, when does the mob boss throws Kappo under the bus listening to some foot soldier? It never happens. You're supposed to smartly. You wrap your arms around the guy and you protect him. Don't abandon me. They didn't just abandon me in a con conversational manner. I was handling legal matters for him that ultimately resulted in the FBI raiding my home, hotel, and law office. And that's because they wanted to get him. I I despise James Comey. I've always said I despise James Comey. I know that Comey ended up getting from John McCain the steel dossier. Then it went I think Andrew Weissman from Weissman who went to Jeffrey Burman who recused himself. Then to another guy by the name of Robert Kazami. I mean all for what? In order to get him. And that is just true. And I hope it's apparent to everybody. I don't care if you're far left or far right. That is and should be apparent to everyone. >> So give me the exact timeline. What month was it when you say, you know, he made the wrong decision. He sided with them instead of me. What what what was the timeline exact? >> I was in the process of going through all of the documents on a review to ensure protection for him in terms of attorney client privilege. We were doing a document review. >> He's in already. >> Oh, he's he's he's in already. >> What's the Give me a monthish. >> It's 17. >> It's 28. It's uh 2017. No, it's uh yes, it's 201 18. >> So, end of 17, early 18ish, >> something like that. >> Okay, continue. You're So, you're going through that. >> We're going through that and all of a sudden, my lawyer turns around and says, "Can you please reach out to Trump? We haven't gotten paid. We got paid some." They held back on the next one. They didn't pay the third bill. Now, it's a fourth bill. We can't continue to represent you. I'm saying, "Wait, wait, you're joking, right?" So, not only did they push me under the bus, but now something that I should be protected under, which is executives and officers insurance, they're not even willing to pay that. Why? What the hell did I do to deserve to be ignored, abused, neglected, thrown away, discarded? What did I do so bad? And then I turned around and I realized during a interview that they were doing with Trump. He turned around and they asked him, was right after the raid, he goes, "It's disgusting that they raided one of my attorneys." Now all of a sudden I lost my name. Remember I know the man better than any human being should know another. That's the first sign that you're out. >> You knew that? >> Yes. It was that comment that really made me pause and say, "Wait, wait. Now I don't have a name. What happened to Michael?" Every morning 4:30, 5 in the morning for over a decade. every morning at 5:00 am and every night the man doesn't sleep by the way neither do I which is what made us even closer every single morning 4:30 to 5 phone call every night 11:30 give or take a phone call first in the morning last before he goes to bed every and now all of a sudden Michael Cohen doesn't exist tell me why what did I do so deservant so bad that I deserve to be not just thrown under the us, but how about run over not once, not twice, but a half a dozen times? And I was like, okay, okay, I guess I am on my own. So, what's your next move when that happens? Because I got a I got a bunch of follow-up questions, but I want to know what you do exactly after that. You see this, you know what the signs are. You're like, I don't think I'm on the inner circle anymore. I'm on the outer, if not the ousted, like I'm about to be ousted. What's your next move? >> I just continue. I had no moves. It wasn't as if I >> Did you approach him? Did you Did you talk to him about it? Did you see the calls declining in a major way? >> I was told by people like Jay Seculo. Oh, don't worry. I'm speaking to the boss. I'm speaking to the boss. You know, everything's going to be fine. Ultimately, I realized that Seculo is lying to me. They then tried to send in this scumbag, Bob Costello, a lawyer who was with Rudy Giuliani. They tried to infiltrate the defense where he wanted to come in. It's really a terrible, terrible. This, by the way, would be probably an Oscar-winning movie because it's so outlandish. It's so ridiculous. Nobody would possibly believe that this is true. They would think that this is some sort of a madeup plot by some really dystopian writer. Why in the world would you do it to me? Somebody who would legitimately have taken a bullet for you except under one condition if he's the one pulling the trigger. I couldn't do it. It was the ultimate betrayal. It was like being betrayed by a brother. >> Okay. So, but from there on what I'm trying to find out is did did you approach him? Did you talk to him? How far how sudden was the fall of communication with him? The late night, the early calls or was it still going on? That's still taking place. >> No, that's stopped. >> So, when is the last time you spoke to him? >> The day after the raid. >> The last time you spoke to him is the day after the raid. >> The day after the raid. >> You've never spoken to him since? >> The day after the raid. >> Got it. Okay. So, you called him or he called you? I called him to let him know I was raided by the FBI, which I I found to be unusual. Even back then, Trump didn't fully appreciate the power of the presidency, but people still feared him because he was getting rid of people left and right. Remember how how many people got [ __ ] can begin? You're going to really tell me that the FBI was raiding the home, hotel, and law office of the personal attorney to the president of the United States and nobody had the decency to tell the president that this was going to happen. Why did he allow that to happen? Can I speculate? >> You can. Okay. So, I if you're in a position like that and he has a lot of people that are in his ear, right? If you're in a position like that and there's a lot of people in his ear and I've gone through this before. I've gone through it closely of course in a much smaller scale in a business where you're like wait a minute who is on my side right now that guy used to be on my side but why are you protecting that guy now you used to say this now you're getting a little too cocky because we're getting so much attention. You're walking around like you run this place and you look at me in a certain way. Don't look at me like that. You never looked at me like that before. Don't get too comfortable. And there's a certain level of expectation to maintain that energy of respect to know he's it right the the power struggle. He's trying to learn everybody. He's trying to study everybody. As as that is happening, don't you think there's a part of it where to say, okay, he's going through a season that he went into a world that he doesn't know this world yet. It's his first term. He's much better now. I mean, he knows what he's doing now with his third term, whatever you want to call it. Of course, those four years he was off, he learned a lot. It was actually he has an advantage because at that fourth year of being off, everybody came and gave him so much information. >> Let's at least let's at least acknowledge it's his second term, not his third. >> For sure it is. It's his second term >> because otherwise that would make this term unconstitutional. >> No, no, no. This is a second term. What I'm saying is that fouryear was a very good break of getting smarter. I think he has that competitive advantage over his peers. But don't you think while you're in that moment like there's a little bit of saying, "Man and maybe he's going through a season. Let me see what he's going through." Instead of, "Nope, I'm out." Yeah. That's not how it happened. You see, what you're doing is you're creating a break in a timeline. I didn't break the timeline. The people, the enablers, the sickopants that were around him are the ones who did it. He'll acknow revenge. Jared Kushner, Ryan Priebus, Steve Bannon, there was a whole group of them. Not you got to cut him off, you got to cut him off. Now, Jared, that saddens me, too, because we had a friendship, you know. Um, Ivanka, from what I understand from investigations that I used to write my book, Revenge. >> Ivanka was like, "You can't do that to MC, her nickname for me, right? You can't do that to MC. You stop." Well, he took the advice of people who were never in his orbit before over the protection of me. And I don't think that you or even any of your listeners would turn around and say, "Yeah, I would I would have done that." I think everybody would have done it differently. In fact, I am 100% certain, not not 99 and a half like Ivory. so 100% certain today if this happened he would never have done what he did. Certainly not over a million dollars in legal fees. Certainly not listening to the enablers that were around him over somebody who he >> who he spoke to and and who he trusted >> every single day for more than a decade. You know, I'm a I'm interesting in a way like insanely loyal. And I don't ask for the same for reciprocal loyalty. I do ask for some. And when I said, I'm going to repeat it. I said it before and I think it's important. I would have taken a bullet for him. Someone pulled out a gun, I would have jumped in front of it. The only time I would not if he's the one that was pulling the trigger. And what I realized is that in this case when it related to me, he was the one pulling the trigger. He may not have went out and purchased the gun and the ammunition that was given to him by his enablers, but he was the one pulling the trigger because as president of the United States, he had the power to do what I told him, what I asked him. I pleaded. I begged him, just shut this [ __ ] down. Nothing good is going to come out of this. They're going to come after both of us and we're both going to get hurt from it. And you know what? Sadly, I was correct. >> Let me ask you, let's role play. >> But let me go one step further. Can I go one step back even further? I wouldn't change anything. >> Okay, but let's let's let's play something else out. Okay, let's play it out. You don't do what you did. Where are you at today in 26? >> Broke on the street, no wife, children hating me. That's where I was. You see, people have me all wrong. I heard all this crap, you know, uh, Trump made you [ __ ] I retired at the age of 39. All right? I didn't need to work for Donald Trump. I wanted when he offered me that job, which came out of the blue. I didn't put in an application. I was in the office. He asked me to help him with a matter matter that dealt with the casinos. And of course, I had done several other legal matters for him as well prior to that. Then he was like, "You happy at that sleepy old firm that you're at?" Was at one of the oldest law firms in America, Philip Sner. I was a partner at the firm. It's like, "Yeah, I don't really work too hard. I'm doing just fine, having a great time, great life." Said, "Why don't you come work for me? I'll give you Ivanka's office. They just built on the 25th floor. You'd be right next to me. You'd be my personal attorney, my special counsel." I was like, "Huh, a guy who I admired tremendously is offering me a job." I didn't expect it. Actually, I expected to get paid for the work that I did on Trump at night. I was waiting for a check. And when I asked him for the check humorously, he turned around and goes, "You want to get fired on the first day?" I was like, "Okay." And I accepted the job. And I don't look back, nor do I look back with the NDAs and so on. I don't look back at any of that. Yeah, there's a difference between when you're saying [ __ ] you know, you think I wasn't making money before. Uh there's a difference between being a lawyer for an oldest, you know, oldest law firm and you're making good money, you got a good life to all of a sudden you're with the guy in New York City that >> No, you're missing my point. I retired. >> I know you did. So, this is not a money thing, but there's a difference between There's a lot of billionaires nobody knows, >> right? I wasn't a billionaire. I was more than comfortable enough. I >> I know the story of owning 30 or 40 medallions. 285 yellow cabs in New York City. I own >> cabs or medallions >> medallions. I owned some, right? The the 40, right? And then I had some in Chicago as well. >> Some of these medallions at the peak was a million bucks. >> 1.4, >> right? >> I I had about $60 million just in medallions in New York alone. >> And you had 280 caps >> and 285 yellow through through the wife and and the family. But this is you. >> No, that was me. I was a lawyer that was working. My my father-in-law had a couple of medallions. I ended up buying them from him right after 9/11. >> And then you took it to a different level. >> No, I was already in the industry. I started in the taxi industry December of 1995. I bought out a client when I was practicing negligence tort and medical malpractice. I bought out a client that was leaving the country. >> I then merged his with another client >> and we built it together, me and my exartner to 285 yellow cabs. bought buildings together, properties together. In fact, bought properties um in Trump World Tower. We bought a whole slew of apartments. I bought one, my parents bought one, my in-laws bought a few, my partner bought, some friends bought. I put together a whole block. >> Uh with the intention of what? With the intention of trying to get close or just business. >> That was my That was the year 2000. Wasn't about to go close. I valued the Trump brand for what it was and I was getting a very good deal price per square foot and it was an investment. That's it. And I rented the apartment. I didn't live there. I rented it. >> Two others. >> Excuse me. >> Two others. You rent to other generally. I rented them to ambassadors and to consulates because it's right across the street from the United Nations. >> 06 when you guys got close. How did it happen? So, what happened is he had had a um battle, a dispute with the board at that building and Don Jr. had said, "Hey, there's a guy who I know, Michael. Uh he has an apartment in that building, but his parents, his in-laws, his friends, there's a whole group of them. You should really speak to him. He's um kind of sharp elbowed, right? He may be the right guy for you to talk about." >> Junior is selling this to Pops, >> correct? >> Okay. And I met Junior because I had just bought apartments in a different building that I had um combined together for my primary residence. And that's where Don Jr. he was doing the construction. Got it. Okay. So today, Michael, so you're saying I would have done it the same way all over again. If I wouldn't have, if I would have stayed the same, I would have been broke today, not married, family, all the stuff that you're talking about that the situation wouldn't be good for you today. You believe that? >> I do. >> Okay. Uh uh fair. So today, who today do you trust and who today trusts Michael Cohen? >> My wife and my children. >> Outside of family. Outside of family. >> I don't know. >> What do you think about that? >> I hate that. You know, I do have a lot of still supporters a lot um on my various different social media platforms as I told you. Um, and really what brought us together for this conversation is there's an entire left-wing ecosystem, maniacs that are trying to cancel me. >> And I probably on my YouTube channel or my substack, I probably lost, I don't know, somewhere between 7 to 10% of my subscribers >> from making those comments. >> Yes. From that one comment of feeling coerced and pressured. >> These are lunatics that are saying that canceled you. >> Correct. I mean, might has touch cancelled you? >> I don't know if I would say that. Yes, I will acknowledge that. Yes, they did. >> Okay. So, so for you when I'm asking >> cancel me business-wise, not personally. >> That's even that that's saying we don't want you representing our brand and I don't want to talk to you anymore. Right. >> No. Uh we >> live on a show. On a show. Correct. On a show. Okay. So, but who trusts you today and who do you trust today outside of family? You said you have supporters. I'm not saying supporters. I'm saying trust. Who trusts Michael? And who does Michael trust today? >> I don't think there's anyone. How do you feel about that? >> Terrible. Sad. I have emotions. I'm not I'm not a stone. I actually have um I'm I'm much more sensitive than people think. >> I I >> And it is sad, right? Oh, because at one point in time I had the guy trust me emphatically. And you know, I'll tell you something. It's that kind of a statement that he trusted me emphatically that these left-wing lunatics, these maniacs, these cancelling animals are trying to use. Michael, you must know every single thing about Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. What's pissing them off about that? What's pissing them off about the fact that I turned around and said, "Let me be crystal crystal clear." I came into Trump's orbit in 2006, full-time 2007, March of 2007 was really my starting date. During that 10, the 10 years from 20 11 years 07 to 2018, I must have been in his office. I don't know. I may I maybe shouldn't even have had an office. I just should have had that far right chair, the one with the red velvet on it. All right, that was my chair. >> And and it's almost like I felt sometimes that I never left that chair. >> During those 11 years, I never once heard Donald Trump talking to Jeffrey Epstein on the phone. I never once saw Jeffrey Epstein in that office. I never spoke to Jeffrey Epstein personally. I never engage in emails, text messages, any communication with Jeff. In fact, I only live like 12 blocks away from Jeffrey Epstein. All right. He lives on Well, it doesn't matter, but I live about 12 blocks away from him. >> That Lex Wexner house, the $77 million 52,000 >> Yeah. that he got for a gift a dollar, right? >> For whatever reason. No one knows yet. >> I live 12 blocks away from him. I'm not even sure if I was ever in the same restaurant as Jeffrey Epstein. Never had any communication with him at all. And because I turn around, I say that that during the 11 plus 12 years that I was literally living inside Trump's office, I never once had any dealings where Trump was in communication or talked about Jeffrey Epstein. However, there is one case that came across my desk as Trump's special counsel. I receive um an envelope and in it is a Jane Doe case against Donald Trump. >> Jane Doe makes the allegation that she was a child and that she was raped by Donald. Well, it's obviously concerning to me as I read through the complaint. It's Jane Doe buy and through her mother and natural guardian, Mary Jane Doe. Well, it's a little bit odd that you have the mother still in there because if in fact that there's any truth to it, why do you need a natural guardian? You're clearly over the age of 18 within which nothing really made sense in that case to me. But I don't keep secrets from the president when something like this comes about. And so I walk over, I knock on the door. Hey boss, can I come in? I said, I just got this crazy ass suit or this notice of lawsuit. They call that a naked summons. What do you know about it? So he goes, Michael, it's complete and total [ __ ] I said, okay. So he goes, he just handle it. And we had obviously many other things going on at the time. He was running a campaign. I said, "Sure." So I reach out to some folks who I know. We send an investigator to the alleged address of this Mary Jane Doe and it's a vacant parking lot. Why you look at me confused? Cuz that's the same look that I had. How's that possible? Did you say vacant parking lot? >> Vacant parking lot. You know, like a piece of dirt, right? Land. So, I reach out to the lawyers and I just start engaging them in conversation and I don't know what made me ask. It was just a gut feeling. Sometimes you get them and they turn out to be the right ones. Have you ever met your client? He says, "No." I said, "What are you talking about?" So, I said, "How'd you get the case?" was through the mail. So, you think it's possible that maybe it's not real? You think it's possible? Because the address that's included in here is a vacant parking lot. So, he goes, "Give me give me give me some time. I'm going to call you back." And they ultimately walked away from the case. >> Did Did we have find out who it was that sent to him? >> No. there was somebody that played them and sent in this case. Okay. All of a sudden, this left-wing ecosphere, these maniacs, they're now equating, for whatever the reason it may be, that this Jane Doe is someone by the name of Katie Johnson. And Katie Johnson is a real person. But I've never worked on the case of Katie Johnson. I've never looked at the file. I don't know anything about this file. That's being handled by somebody else. It's being handled by Alan Garton, who's general counsel at the Trump Organization. I have no knowledge of it. In fact, my understanding is that Lisa Bloom, daughter of Gloria Allred, was the lawyer for Katie Johnson. Now, that case was abandoned or it was dismissed. Okay, fine. What does it have to do with me? What does it have to do with the fact that there was a case that the attorneys walked away from because it was not a legitimate case? Why is all of a sudden Mary J, this Jane Doe, Katie Johnson, they're not the same. Lisa Bloom, I believe, acknowledged that they're not the same people. And it doesn't make any sense either that they would be the same person. Why would there be two cases? So, you're saying that Michael Cohen threatened this Jane Doe and so they abandoned it? And I need to try to figure out on a timeline whether that allegation is before the Katie Johnson case was filed or after. Was it were they going on simultaneously? Patrick, none of this makes any sense at all. And again, how much easier would it be for me just to say, "Oh yeah, oh yeah, I threatened uh this Jane Doe's lawyer and so on and uh they managed to dismiss it, right? pump myself up, you know, like, you know, like um you know, a boss, right? Like a like a cappo. It's not true. >> It's not what happened. >> The lawyers the lawyers walked away from it because it wasn't a legitimate case. Plain and simple. And because I refused to take that opportunity within which to beat up on the president, now all of a sudden, once again, Michael's a bad guy. He's bending the knee for Trump. He's asking for pardons. He's asking for something. He wants back into the fold. Hey, Michael Cohen here. Look, you all know who I am. Donald Trump's former personal attorney and fixer. A lot of things have taken place over the years. A lot of questions need to be answered. Well, you you may have a lot of questions. So, do me a favor. Anytime you want to ask me a question, feel free to reach out to me on Man. Do you think you care too much of what people think? >> I think everybody cares. >> No, but but there's difference. No, I I think there's a limit. And and to me, I learned a long time ago, like one of the things I put in my uh uh in my business plan is knowing who I care cares about what I think, you know, what I'm saying and who I could care less about. And in life, if you're not too careful, if you care too much about the noise creators, what they think about you, you're going to be held hostage by them. You'll make some dumb decisions. >> Well, I'm not so sure about that. I think what it does I think it sharpens me. It doesn't make me make dumb decisions. It makes me more >> sensitive sensitive decisions. >> It's okay to be sensitive, but it doesn't mean that they're reckless decisions. I am receiving DMs on a daily basis. It's almost like, you know, I was on Charlemagne the God once on on Comedy Central and I was doing the mean tweets, right? >> I can't begin to tell you the number of some of the violist comments being made all about something that is absolutely 100% untrue. Just because you want to believe something doesn't make it factually accurate. All right. Imagine if your subscribers, if your followers, people who have been loyal to Patrick, right? They think that you walk on water now all of a sudden writing you some of the vilest [ __ ] that you could possibly imagine because there are people spreading lies about you. And then all of a sudden that lie gets metastasized into the next person who's using that lie to build subscribers and profiting from it off of your back. But by the way, it doesn't stop there. It's like that Brex hair commercial. But wait, there's more. And then so on and so on and so on. And next thing you know, there's like an there's like 10, 12, 14, 16 people, all of whom are attacking you 24/7. We're talking about two individuals that died in Minneapolis. We're talking about Trump's um capturing of Maduro. We're talking about Greenland. We're talking about a multitude of issues far bigger, far greater, far more important than Michael Cohen. And yet, not with these folks because Michael Cohen makes them money. >> Yeah. I mean, that's the business. You ever read the rules for radicals? You know that rules? Okay. So, I mean that's that's that's a business model. That's how a lot of media companies are built off of, right? And they know how to destroy your life if they want to. But I want to go back to that question when I said who do you trust and who trusts you, right? And I said, outside of family and you said you don't know, you want to supporters and you kind of went through uh how emotional and tough it is to be in a place like that. And I said, how do you feel about it? Cuz I think as a man, you know, uh there are a few people who as a man for your identity, not everybody will understand this that you want them to look at you in a certain way. It's how your wife looks at you. It's how your kids look at you. Boys a different look than daughters. It's how your enemies look at you. It's a look you want from your enemies. It's how your peers look at you. It's how your boss investors look at you. Those each individually are very important. >> So then let me then go back to your question >> please. >> I still have my oldest and closest friends. They have never shied away from me. Not when I was with Trump. Not when I was against Trump. Not when I was with Midas. Not when I'm no longer with Midas. My friends are my friends. They know the true essence. They know I mean I have friends since, you know, the age of 10. >> I mean, you know, you're talking about almost 50 years, right? Um whereas close today as we were when we were stupid kids riding our bicycles. Um, I've gone through, like everybody in life, I've had friends who have done incredibly well and I have friends who unfortunately passed away um from various different things from whether it's cancer to drug overdose. >> Um, you know, I miss them as well, right? because they would be here for me right now. But I still have so many of my college friends, my my law school friends, even friends from when I was in Otisville I still speak to >> and they don't walk away. >> So I do have that support. >> Respect to those guys, by the way. Major respect for Big. >> Yeah, I tell that to them all the time. >> Um, >> but I'm there for them as well. You know, they have moments in their lives too where things are great and then like everything >> there's a fall, >> right? The ED medication is wearing off. That is so funny. Uh uh who do you think is more loyal of all the people you've done business with? Who do you think is more loyal to his people, Donald Trump or anybody else you ever met? >> Well, okay. That's a loaded question for me because he's the only person I ever worked for in my life other than the very first lawyer who I worked in the law firm. As I told you, I did tort litigation and medical malpractice. Other than him, I've worked for myself. >> I had people working for me. >> You've been around a lot of people. You've been around a lot of people. You're you're a guy. You're also a tough guy. You're not you're in New York, so you're you're you don't becomes taxi industry medallions. That's a mob, you know. I don't mean mob like gangsters mob. It's not what I mean. >> It's a tough business. It's not. It's not like you you can't be in that and be a lightweight making it. It's especially in New York. Those things are very very valuable. I think the second biggest city I would put for that would probably be Vegas. And it's not even close. It's not Chicago. >> It's Chicago and then Boston, Philadelphia. So meaning if you're in that space, you better be tough or else you're not going to make it. >> So you met a lot of guys, you met a lot of people and you look at them and say, "Okay, all right. All right, all right." >> Now 2026, >> looking at Trump, his approval rating amongst Democ amongst Republicans, super high, right? Super high. 94, 92, whatever the number. >> Well, it's it's it's dropped down a little bit. I think it's 92%. 92% used to be 96. >> Yeah, it's insane. But even to say if you're in the 70s, you're good. You're in the 80s, you're good. He's 92 96. And then you're seeing, >> by the way, you're going to get me canceled again for making a comment. Yeah, that amongst Republicans. And the funny thing is then I'll go and I'll show them a statistic. And I'll say, but that's not me. That's the Ipsos poll that's showing it. >> F you, Michael. Right. You're back. You're back trying to appease Donald Trump. It's incredible. I almost can't say anything that is flattering. >> It's not going to stop though. >> No, it won't stop me. >> It's not going to stop. But but it's about what are you solving for? So, let me go back to it. 2026 JD Van said stuff I'm a never Trumper 10 years ago whatever it was when he >> America's Hitler >> he did but he said I'm a never Trumper like I'm never you know you know when say never Trump is like I'm never doing anything with him he's the VP right going back and forth right uh Ted Cruz inside working with him right >> called him a sniveling coward >> a lot of things but but the point is he's also a guy that hey you come and you give respect you're back in a circle let's do business together let's move on and there is that side of him and some people don't have that at all. There are people you cross them once you ain't never getting it. That's not him. >> No. >> So he does have a side that's I don't know if I want to say it forgiving. I don't know if I want to say you know his closest closest guy right now is probably Marco Rubio. I mean do you >> No. No. I wouldn't say >> one of the closest guy you know you know >> I still think his one of his closest is probably Steve Witkoff. There's a history that goes back. I have a history with Steve Whitoff um outside of Trump, >> you know, >> real estate, another guy >> and and our our children are all friends, you know, and so I mean, yeah. >> Are you still good with Steve or do you >> If I saw him, sure. Howard Lutnik. I know Howard longer than I know Trump. My daughter and his son >> went to nursery school together. It's 25 years I know Howard. All right. 25 years. I saw him uh after Trump became president. Came over, gave me a hug. The whole bid. Gave him a kiss. Hello. How are you? You know, the whole bid. I have no problem with him or or Allison, his wife. >> Why are they so loyal to him? >> What's that? >> Why are they so loyal to him? >> Well, there's many different reasons. One, they believe in what Trump's agenda is. And two, it's probably very financially lucrative, you know, for all of them to be in the inner circle. >> Okay. So, fair to say that now. But going back to it with Trump 2026, how important would you say like if you were to say one of the most loyal guys I've met to his people is Trump. Where would you rank him? >> One of the most loyal >> to his people that are loyal to him. >> Let's say out of 10 people. >> You met a lot of guys. Where would you rank him? >> Towards probably towards the top. >> Towards the top. >> Sure. >> Okay. >> Sure. >> Would you have said that in 2020 2021? >> Absolutely. By the way, if you look at my testimony that when I was on the stand, and again, I did not volunteer to be on that stand, I was subpoenaed. By the way, would I have done the 60, 90 days like Peter Navaro or like Alan Weiselberg had I had somebody in my camp? Hell yeah. Certainly, it's a lot better than the six years that I got from that idiot judge, right? Off of what? Off of doing an NDA, right? I mean, that's really what it was about. About an NDA, about the Russia hoax. Had I had even just a shred of loyalty thrown back to me, some care, some knowledge that a um let's protect Michael, let's put our arms around him. It's what a mob boss would do. Don't take the guy in and just say, "Oh, yeah, point over there. Hey, no, no, no. Look at him. Don't look at me. Stop looking at me. Look at him over there." No, that's not right. That's I would never have testified. I didn't want to. In fact, when I said I felt pressured and coerced, I felt coerced. I was under subpoena. I felt pressured. I didn't want to do it. I just didn't want to. It's my personal feelings and I'm entitled to them. >> Absolutely you are. So if these guys these guys who were in Trump's ears, let's just say that they, you know, turned you against him or >> the other way around, >> turned him against you, whatever it may be. And let's just say you know that for a fact. >> I do. >> Okay, fair. If you know that for a fact, don't you think time's going to be on your side? Don't you think within time he's going to realize what happened? >> My hope. No, no, but what I'm saying is, so what I'm saying is even in that moment to say, >> did this guy, I have 100% of his back, don't you think, and and I want to finish this and then we can move on to the next >> because I have a response for this that's going to blow you away. >> So what I'm saying is in that moment you're like, what is he doing? Patient 3 months, 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, 24 months. Then he sees the guys that did this. Then he sees how they did. And then he sits there and says, "But that Michael guy never flipped. But that Michael guy never threw me under the bus. But that Michael guy, you know what? Call Michael." Don't you think time would have strengthened the relationship? >> Who has that time? All right. When this is happening to you in real time, you're thinking postfact. And I agree with you. Post fact probably would have been better. >> That's what makes it tough, though. That's what makes >> No. No. Not what makes it tough. makes it impossible because you're living in a world. I I I can assure you this has never happened to you. In fact, it's probably never happened to any of your any of your listeners either. >> You can't imagine what it feels like. It's not an anvil dropping out like in the Road Runner from the sky and squashing you into a >> You chose that job though. That comes with the territory. It's not an easy job. >> What What job are you referring to? >> Don't choose to go into the administration. Don't I didn't go into the administration. >> Don't choose to stay supporting when he's at that level. I mean, this is the most targeted man. >> It wasn't anything though. It wasn't anything that we had done while he was in office. This was everything pre none of it was political. Um it's this was all pre >> I I understand that. >> My point is so what was I what was I looking for? What was I hoping for? I was hoping that the man who I revered, >> man who I had worked for, I had blasts with, we used to travel together, laugh our I don't see Trump laughing anymore, >> I don't see him smiling. I don't see him having a good time. >> I think he's having a time of his life. >> No. No, he's not. He He's not He's not laughing. When we were together, he used to enjoy everything. He used to smile more. He used to laugh more. that I assure you. You know, there was a moment when Trump had become president-elect and I had said, "I want I don't want to go into DC. I I'll be there every day for you if that's what you want. You want I'm going to be back in the city. You want me to bring you like a potato kish from Cats Del. You want a a dirty water dog, whatever you want, I'll get onto a train. I'll get into the car. I'll drive up. I don't care. Whatever you need, I'll be there. But I want to be personal attorney to the president." And I remember him turning around after he decided that Rin Priebus was going to be his chief of staff. >> He says to Rance, "What role is Michael playing?" Because at first he didn't want me to be on the outside. Trump likes familiarity. And he had no familiarity there. Ryan Priebus was loading the place up with his people because he thought that he was going to be able to make Trump into a puppet, a puppet president. And Trump likes famili Oh, wrong. Yeah. Damn straight. That's why he got [ __ ] canned so fast. >> Yeah. >> Trump likes familiarity. Unfortunately, he did allow me the job that I wanted. >> Maybe it was a test. Maybe it was testing you. >> Could be. But he said to Rights, "Find Michael the right position." In fact, he wanted me to be assistant deputy um counsel. >> Yeah. um under uh what was his name? Um the the lawyer. I I visualize him. I I he was from the the Big Dwayne um law firm. Anyway, no thank you, sir. I actually have some other ideas and ways that I would be able to protect you on the outside from all of this nonsense that we all know is going to be coming. He said to Ryan, "Let me be clear. You find Michael a job." This is his words, not mine. Because the only reason you're in that spot is because of him. I know you 10 seconds. I know him 10 years. Those are Trump's words. That was the loyal about me. That was the loyalty I expected. You're going to listen to Ryan's Priebus who was dubbed in the office rancid penis. I mean, who the hell is listening to Ryan's Priebus? He did. And to whose detriment? Mine. By the way, my hope my hope is that the president is actually listening to this podcast. Turns around and says, "You know what? Yeah, I missed the guy, too. Give me a call." He still has my cell number. It actually was once It was once a Trump number. >> You know, he's the type of guy that would call. >> And I would take it. >> Have you tried? >> And I would take it. >> Have you tried calling? >> I can't do that. >> Why? >> I It's It can't. >> Why? >> Because maybe I will. Maybe I will. >> Can I tell you why? Why? Uh um >> I'm not 100% certain I know what I would even say at this point. >> I I think neither one of you guys are It's just going to be the conversation. You'll know within the first two seconds. You're probably right about that. You don't know until you make the call. But to me, >> you know what I was also, by the way, not to interrupt you, you know what else also surprised me? >> My relationship with the kids, >> especially Don and then Ivanka and Eric as well. I mean, I sat on Eric's um board. I got you. I got cancelled long time ago for saying that too. Oh, Eric, you know, Eric Trump was stealing money from the charity for St. Jude's Church. I sat on that board. He didn't steal money from anybody. Okay, let me be crystal clear. Eric did not. Don I saved Don in countless countless scenarios. Ivanka incredibly close with her as well >> till today. >> No. >> Okay. And when I see her sometimes in the city, she turns around, looks the other way, and it kills me. >> That's the same. >> That's the look I'm talking about. >> That's the same person who came to my apartment. I cooked my famous worldass lasagna for and we were fighting on the floor like like siblings for the last piece, even though I'm the one who made it because she wanted me to wrap it for her for for work the next day. That's how much and how significant a relationship that we had or all of us and then not one of them to reach out to turn around to say I'm not going to let dad do this to you. You know, tell you an interesting story. I was sitting in my office, Ivanka's old office on the 26th floor, and Don, Ivanka, and Eric walk in. It was right after the launch, right after the very famous escalator scenario where he made comments about Mexico and Mexicans >> maybe two days or so after that, three days, and they turn around and they said to me, >> "You need to get dad to stop to withdraw. He can't run for the presidency." Donald's sister, Judge Barry, called me and said, "Michael, what the hell are you doing?" I turned around and said, "Your honor, you're about the only one that Donald actually has any fear of." And he he's he did he he he was he was his sister petrified him, you know, not in the >> of course I get it. >> In a familial >> in the similar like the baseball coach guy, >> damn straight. >> Right. >> They asked me to go speak to dad and get him to draw. I said, "No chance. He's never going to withdraw. You know it. If you know like thanks to you, it's their words, not mine. And if they want to be honest about it, they'll acknowledge it. Thanks to you, the legacy that we're going to be left won't be the Trump organization. It'll be the Rump organization. >> I said, "You're not Don't be so certain." Meanwhile, they're all kicking ass right now. >> All right. Thanks to the Rump organization. Mhm. >> Not one of them had the decency to pick up a phone >> and call. My daughter and Tiffany, as an example, >> I'm not surprised though. >> Have been friends since they were in their early teens. Went to college together. >> Are you surprised? >> I am. >> Why are you surprised? >> Because I would. Because I would make the call. >> You're not Trump. >> I never said I was, though. >> No. No. That's why you would make the call. Because you know the the I'm not surprised at all >> that the kids did. >> I'm not surprised at all. >> Okay. >> I'm not in my opinion. I could be wrong and people have their own right to write the comment saying you're so this totally get it. My opinion is I'm not surprised because that's the part it's it's why phrases like ride or die. It's that phrase. It's that part where hey, you know it it totally understand the relationship and all this stuff. You cross the line with my dad. You're my enemy. It's a you know um >> did I cross the line with him or did they cross the line with me? >> It doesn't matter if you got to always stand by your family. >> But but but but the part with >> it doesn't mean it's not going to hurt. >> No. No. You have the right to I totally and I feel the sincerity. I I you know I totally feel the relationship makes me want to try that lasagna that there's a guy that is a lasagna guy. >> Freaking that good. Don't BS me cuz I actually like >> I'll show you a photo. >> All right. Okay. Okay. So, maybe maybe we got to test that out here and see how it works out. >> Why do you have a kitchen in this? >> We're down the street. We'll go cook it and and get a feel for it. But but going going back to it, going back to it to me is um you know, a a leader. Okay. A leader, a coach, a politician, a military leader. When do you think they stop testing their generals? >> Never. >> That's the point. That's the point. Oh, I didn't say it the right way. Um, that would be ne never for a thousand. >> Never for a thousand. But what do you think it is for Trump? >> Even more, right? Okay. So, to me, >> um, >> but you see, as the president >> Yeah. >> the way I see it, he's the most powerful man on the planet. >> Sure. >> And the most powerful man on the planet should fear nothing and nobody. >> Oh, that's not how life works, though. No way. Okay. The most powerful man in the planet has the most enemies targeting him to destroy him. So there there's a there's a layer where you go to sleep and you're around your friends and family. You're breaking bread. >> So then where do I sit? So where do I sit in the in the living room? Do I sit, you know, as I used to? In the seat next to him as I used to. Or now do I sit in the bathroom in the back with mush? Right. Stop looking at the dice. remember that from Bronx Tale? >> Yeah, of course. Of course. Chaz is a friend. That's a That's a >> He's so great, by the way. >> He's phenomenal. He's phenomenal. Have you been to the show? The the the Bronx Tail show he does? >> No. >> Oh, you you've never >> No, I can pretty much do the movie by >> He continues doing the oneman show. Go to it once. >> Where's it at? >> He does it all over Broadway, New York. He does it all over. Phenomenal. >> Chaz, I'm coming. >> Phenomenal. You got to go see how it is. It's incredible. >> So, but but to me, it's that's your choice. Your choice is what level of pain do you want to tolerate to maintain that? >> So you think I should actually make a call to the White House and ask to be seen. >> Uh what's your outcome? >> I could either get a yes, which would make me happy. >> But what's your outcome? >> What's the reason for the visit? >> Yes. >> Well, twofold. One, something that I'm also being attacked by, I'm going to say them again, the radical left lunatics that are lying. Michael wants a pardon. >> Okay. Yeah, I would take a pardon, but I'm not asking for a pardon for me. I'm asking a pardon for 70 million Americans who are nonviolent felons here in America right now that are treated like secondass citizens. I call this I actually wrote a letter, which I did send in, by the way, uh to the White House. I call it to teo, Trump emancipation proclamation order. It would give a second chance to 70 million nonviolent felons who have finished their sentence completely. No restitution. They no supervised release, no home confinement. They are done. So there is no commutation of sentences. It is merely no longer being listed as a felon that prevents you from getting work, having a bank account, having the ability to reintegrate into society, which is exactly what they want. I have that in front of him. He would, you know, here's a question for you. And I do not diminish the disgusting part of America's history where slavery was rampant. You know how many slaves existed in America during slavery? >> Do you know? Most people don't just under three million. >> Mhm. >> 70 million Americans carry the stigma of felony convictions. that scarlet letter, bank accounts, employment, housing, etc. This would give them the ability. You know who I author I co-authored this with? >> A very long time dear friend of mine, >> Jesse Jackson Jr. I've been friends with his father for decades. And through his father, I met Jesse Jr. who is a felon himself, former Congress member. We co-authored this and I sent it in. So if I had the opportunity to sit with my former boss, my former friend, who knows, maybe 70 million Americans, mostly minority, like when I created I created the National Diversity Coalition for Trump. Diversity bring back so that it's not an issue. Oh, Donald, you know, Donald is racist. Donald doesn't believe in diversity. It's not true. It's not true. Give me the ability within which to do this for 70 million Americans. So, I would have that opportunity to sit with him and then I would have the opportunity to look my old friend in the face and ask him, "Is there maybe something privately you would like to say to me?" Right? Maybe just between you and me. Not for the cameras, not for, you know, not for media, for me. You think maybe? You want to say something? What I went through? 51 days of solitary confinement, the first three days, no food, when they put me the second time in because I refused to wave my first amendment constitutional right and not publish my first book disloyal. They put me in a freezer for about three hours. You know what it's like when you're so cold and you're chattering so hard your teeth feel like they're going to fall out of your jaw? You think that that goes away? You think that's not a trigger for PTSD? Oh, I know I have it. I've had 20 different people, friends, family whose wives they're therapists. Like, how is it you're not seeing a therapist? And I was like, well, it's just like many things, I just don't believe in it. It's just me. I believe people should see therapists. It's just not for me. I like maybe you should. >> Who uh uh I think you should make that call. And I don't know what's going to happen, but I think you should make that call. Uh uh the the risk he's going to have and and I don't know if he cares. I actually think he's reached a status right now that um remember when when I don't know when it was that 2019 2020 that if you were a Trump ally you were worried am I going to get sued? Am I going to do this? Am I people were afraid to be you couldn't go anywhere wearing the MAGA stuff. Nowadays people are like accepted the fact that he got reelected. Don't get me wrong there's still a lot of chaos behind it as well. just two weeks ago, he called uh Elizabeth Warren, >> said, "Hey, what do you think about the 10% credit card?" You know, and she's like, "I was shocked." He called me. >> I got cancelled for that one, too. I turned around, I said, "Good for him." >> Yeah. >> By the way, can I ask you this? So, let's just say, let me go back to what people consider me to be that, you know, lefty anti-Trump guy, >> right? >> And I turn around and I say, "You know what? Good for him for calling Elizabeth Warren. Good for him for having Chuck the Schmuck Schumer and Hakee Jeff come to his office. By the way, I never liked either of them ever. Not when I was doing my and you know and Midas he'd be like, "Why do you always have to say that?" I said, "I I just don't like them. I think that they're worthless. They're faux outrage and anger all the time with their fist. I I just don't like them. I'm allowed not to like somebody, right?" So, we would laugh about it. Why does that make me bad? because I turned around I said good for him for having fortitude to pick up a phone and to call somebody who has been um let's just say less than complimentary >> why does that make me a bad guy >> why is everything that I say somebody has to make a determination about the quality of my soul and character I'm under this microscope from everybody everybody thinks they have a right to judge me why there's only one person that's going to be judging me and that person's not sitting here on this planet. That I can assure you. So maybe people should learn to keep their judgments to themselves. Listen to the facts. Facts matter. Innuendo doesn't mean anything. Everybody has an opinion. >> Good. Now take your opinion >> and keep it. >> Right. I don't know if I'm allowed to say the things on your podcast that I say on my own. Stick it up your ass. All right. I'm not interested in your opinion. Even if it's positive towards me or negative. Just keep it to yourself. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you have to express it. And especially to those that are attacking me wildly every single day. Shame on you. Shame on you. And the funny thing is they all claim they all claim to be these devout Christians. They're all devout Christians. Really? You think Jesus would say that? Let me be very clear. When I was in Otisville, despite being Jewish, I became very friendly with the deacon that was there, Deacon Davis. Truly a phenomenal man. Much nicer than the rabbi that was there. No, no, no. Really much, much much, much nicer than the rabbi. He was a terrible human being. The deacon, >> the rabbi, >> the rabbi, terrible guy. The deacon couldn't be kinder, nicer, more caring for not just the inmates, but me particularly, right? Because he realized I was suffering. You know, there was a lot of anger and hatred. I was the highest highest profiled inmate in the Bureau of Prison when I was there. >> Who was who else was there with you? >> Well, uh, who was there with me? Yeah. >> Mike the situation from Jersey Shore. >> Senator Dean Skilos. Um, Billy McFarland of Fire Festival. Um, >> Oh, Fire Festival at his peak. Yeah. >> Yeah. We had we had um >> you did the thing with J Rule, I think, the big party. Yeah, >> that's correct. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We had uh a couple of pretty significant uh notables. Um Joe Peroko uh who was Andrew Cuomo's chief of staff. Um he ultimately had his conviction overturned. Good. Thank God he's a great guy. Um there were some significant notables, but I was the highest profiled inmate in the Bureau of Prison. In fact, I had to build my own fence. >> Let me let me ask this. >> I learned how to do a lot of things while I was there. I mean the deacon that's that's a >> he was the kindest >> respect >> respect damn straight. >> There was also a um a nurse she's a um that was that was there who also was beyond beyond kind to me cuz I I have um blood pressure issues believe it or not uh which I developed there. She would make sure that I was properly given my blood pressure, medication, and then there were times where just the stress becomes overwhelming. And you know, um, she'd make sure if it wasn't for her, I probably wouldn't be here today. I write about her in the book, too. >> Very cool. Respect. >> Respect is right. >> Respect. Respect for them. By the way, what at what point when you started working with the president did you know he's going to run for office >> from OA? >> 2011. >> 2011. 2011. >> What happened in 11? >> Oh, so okay. Here we go. Ready for this? So to all the to all the people who are maybe beginning to have a shred of compassion for me, right? 2011 I started a website. Let let me go back and take it to the ex. I'm reading a newspaper as I do like he does every single day. And I'm reading the newspaper and there was a survey. Who would you like to see run for the presidency in 2012 against Barack Obama? 5% said Donald Trump. That expression on your face. >> 2012 >> 20 2011 >> 2011. >> Time matters. Okay. >> How many people voted? Was it a good sample? Uh uh >> to to be honest with you, I don't remember, but it was about a thousand people. Whatever. It's a it's a fair survey and it was in the newspaper. >> So, I rip it out. and he gets in. Now, mind you, this is, you know, before 8:00 a.m. And I see he's in the office. Hey, boss. Want to see something pretty freaking cool? He goes, "What do you got? What do you What do you got?" And I turn around, I was like, "Um, all right. Check this out." I hand it to him and I highlight it. So, brings his eyes directly to what? And he's like, "Huh?" Goes, "What do you think?" I said, "I think it'd be pretty freaking cool." He goes, "You know, I'm kind of bored of all of this. How many more deals? How many more golf courses? How many more buildings? How many more licensing deals? You let I'll let the kids do that." I was like, you know, we're in the middle of a couple right now. Some pretty big ones like the Dural, right? And he had bought the ones in um in Scotland and in Ireland, Dunebeg. He's like, "Um, yeah." He goes, "Explore this. Congratulations, you got another job. Now, mind you, during the time period that I was with Trump, not only was I his personal attorney, consigary, as they wanted to call me, I was on the board of the Miss Universe organization. There were only three of us, Donald Weiselberg and myself. >> Weiselberg. >> Yes. The three of us were the board of Miss Universe along with NBC. Sure. That co-owned it. I was co-president of Trump Productions, which was involved in The Apprentice and also other reality television with a guy named Larry Glick, who runs golf. I sat on six different boards, uh, real estate, um, building boards where I was the treasurer because I'm very, very sharp with a pencil. Um, like insanely sharp. So, I had plenty going on with that. And um it was to say the least another incredibly big job. So, I meet this attorney out of Dallas. In fact, I still have the book. It's in a leatherbound um uh three- ring notebook, which I will give to his library on loan. I want to continue to own it. It's mine. Right. But that set up the future. >> Is this a lawyer of Andy Beal or no relation to Beiel? >> No relation to Andy Bill. It was a lawyer. Okay. >> Uh he may actually work for Andy. I don't know. But I was introduced to him. >> It's broken down into every single state and every county who you need to speak to. It's the most thorough book. And then I ended up going to uh Iowa to learn about the first and we ultimately decided, let me rephrase that. Donald ultimately decided, I certainly concurred. Um, we had negotiated another season for The Apprentice where he was a guarantee of $60 million for that one season. >> Stop it. >> Don't stop it. Truth. >> One season, 60 million. >> Respect. >> Beautiful. >> Say it. Good for him. >> Say it. >> Respect. >> Damn straight. >> Good for him. >> Damn straight. 60 mil. Here's Trump's line to me. Michael, no one walks away from Hollywood. Hollywood walks away from you. I can't walk away from And I was like, I wouldn't either, boss. Right. I wouldn't either. But he goes, if you stand with me shoulder-to-shoulder in 2015, I give you my word. We're going to do it. And from 2011 on, from the sweeps is when it was the day of the sweeps. He made the decision not to go in 2012 for the presidency to 2015. We talked about it every single day. Plotting it out every single day. >> Plotting it or stuff like what do you think about what he said? I wouldn't do it this way. I would do this. Was it that kind of conversation? >> Strategy. Okay. on everything >> such as give us examples >> on everything. Okay. The war in Iran. >> Yeah. >> One of the things that he turned around, he goes, "What sort of an idiot sends your troops and we don't keep the oil?" Goes, "Why are we not keeping the oil?" He goes, "Michael, have you ever heard of the adage to the victor go the spoils? Why are we walking away from it?" I said, "I don't know. He's an idiot." So he's like, "I keep it." I said, 'You do realize then we'd have to surround it with the military. He goes, "So what?" To the victor go the spoils. Just one example. These are all, by the way, if Trump would call in right now, he turn around and tell you, "Yeah, I did say that. I absolutely did." These are the sort of things that we did. I bring it back. The weave to when I turn around and I was saying about that um article about the 5%. So, I started something called should Trump run.com. Did it on my own with a guy named Stu. Funded it the whole bit. Within I don't know 72 hours had 10 million people responded. >> Stop it. >> Don't tell me stop. Respect. >> Go to should Trumprun.com. >> That's right. Should Trumpun.com. >> Wow. >> 72 hours. >> In 72 hours. It was like >> How did you advertise it? How did it get out? >> I don't know. I just put it out there. made a couple announcements on like television, things like that. I used my relationships in media. >> Go to images. Go to images. Just go to images. See which one it was. Uh, okay. It's not up because it's been many years. Okay. So, should Trump run.com. >> I'm sure there are articles. If you go into that, >> go to newsRap. Go back and go to news 2019 2018. Go to that one. The second. Yeah. Right there. and then see if the domain is there. Should trumprun.com right there. Months earlier, Michael Cohen had helped set up a website called should Trump Long Island long time. Cohen also travel to explore the Porto. >> Interesting. So you're beh So you're behind closed doors checking the terrain to see if there's a >> interest and appetite. Amen to that. And I come back to him and I said, "Boss, you're much more popular than you think." I got that look, you know, the look, right? Perched lips, the eyes sort of squint. He's so happy. And his happiness in those days made me happy. And we laughed our asses off where he turned around. He goes, "Can you imagine if we pull it off? Can you imagine?" I'm like, "Yeah, and I think you can do it. Don't say that. You're jinxing it." I was like, I'm not jinxing [ __ ] I'm like, this were the conversations that I had, which again brings us all the way back to the beginning of this podcast when Todd Blanch asked me, "Yo, you you hate Trump?" No, I don't. >> Yeah. >> No, I don't. >> There are a bunch of questions Todd Blanch probably could have asked me during that trial. >> Sure. that probably would have gotten it um dismissed or I should say a hung jury, but that's neither here nor there. >> Very interesting. So, you were involved fully behind. Was he a superstitious guy? Is he a big time superstitious? He >> is superstitious. >> That's sports. That's baseball, by the way. >> He's superstitious. >> Baseball fans, baseball players are super superstitious. The highest. >> Could you imagine? You see them going like this at like a Yankees game, right? you know, when when it's like a three and two in the uh you know, in the ninth inning or something. >> Baseball is like the ultimate superstitious. >> Sure. >> What what what else about him behind closed doors that you appreciate where you're like, >> you know, as much as I see like what were rules? There's certain non-negotiables I have that when I do business, I'm curious what were some of his non-negotiables like, "Hey, Michael, we're never doing business with that guy." Uh was it ever things like never, we'll never we'll never do this or was it never okay? Never was not a word. Um, >> never was not a word. >> No. >> Okay. >> There's nothing that is never to him. Just because like when we tried to buy I was involved in that, tried to buy the Buffalo Bills. >> We were in negotiation. Uh, we went we met with the NFL. Um, reviewed the documentation behind it in order to put in an offer. I knew we weren't going to get it because uh >> politics or >> No, it wasn't politics. It was um uh Terry Pagula, who is a native, ended up buying it and he outbid Trump by like $700 million. I mean, he had just made billions off of fracking and he is a local Buffalo native and there was he he outbid everybody, right? uh Trump by like 700 million. And >> can you pull up this guy Terry? I want to know. Oh, there it is. Terry Bagula. So, zoom in a little bit. He owns the Bills and uh NHL team as well. Buffalo Sabers. >> He owns the Buffalo Sabres as well. >> What kind of money does he have? >> Seven billion. >> Oh, he's a seven billion guy. >> Now he's Now he's a a pitcher compared to Trump. >> Well, I mean, you don't know the name. So, you you you >> Oh, I do. By the way, interestingly enough, >> the average person doesn't know Terrence >> Okay, let me give you a little factoid. You know who his daughter is? >> Jessica Pagula. The tennis star. >> Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. So, now I know his daughter. >> So, you know who the richest one in tennis is? >> She is. >> Billionaire Jessica Pagoula playing against >> There you go. Buffalo, New York. Boer Ron. That's right. >> So, they live down here. They live in Bokeh. >> Yeah. They live everywhere. Okay. You know what? You're a billionaire. >> When you have 7 billion plus dollars, you can live wherever. >> That's actually a very good point. That's a very good point. When you when you go have that kind of money. >> Yeah. >> Respect. respect. So, it's very obvious, Michael, from the I'm not gonna lie to you. I had no idea where the conversation would go. I'm like, you know, when you and I talked, we talked uh uh uh >> three weeks ago. >> Yeah. But what the first time we talked? When was the first time >> Oh my god. The first time we talked, I think was like two years ago. >> What was it about? What did we talk about? >> Um was it Michael Wolf? What was it about when you and I spoke? >> No, I think it was about my second book, Revenge. >> Okay. >> May may have just come out. both New York Times bestsellers. Disloyal number one, Revenge number six. Thank you very little. Yeah. Um there was a question or an issue there that piqued your curiosity and I remember you reached out, but um you then reached out or somebody reached out in regard to my Michael Wolf interview on my May Copa podcast. Right. Right. and something again sparked an interest and I don't remember if we had a lengthy conversation or maybe it was just by by text message but then oh about uh a week or so ago after I started getting cancelled that was um last Friday. >> Yeah. um you reached out and be honest I was thankful that you did because you know it's a very troubling place to live between two polar opposites bec brutally beaten by one side or both sides. >> Let me ask you if let's just say the visual the visual is you call, they accept the call, you talk, you go to the White House, there's a picture of you and him. >> So what >> what happens next to you? >> I could give two shits. >> Okay, that's good. >> How about that one? >> That's good. >> Especially if I'm successful. >> Yeah. >> In that $70 million Trump Emancipation Proclamation order. >> Yep. 70 million Americans. I'm willing to take the hits from these asses, these radical left maniacs, these liars. I'm okay to take the hit on that. By the way, the one of the loudest detractors against me is a felon himself, a non-violent felon that will benefit from that Trump Emancipation Proclamation order. That is historic. That is legacy stuff. When you can fix the lives of 70 million Americans, 70, it's not just them. What about their families? What about their spouses? What about their children? Why should if the judge gave you a three years as they did to me, three years in, three years out? Sixear sentence and you finish it. >> Judge didn't turn around and say you're a felon for life. >> Why can I not have Isn't this country a country of second chances? >> Isn't this a country that's supposed to want to see reintegration into society? Proper reintegration. That's exactly what this does. And just imagine the favorabilities now. He already has the Republican party. >> What was the thing he did in 2018? The first act, the the that Van Jones showed up to the White House and he was standing behind Trump. You know which one I'm talking about? Do you know which one I'm talking about? They did something for second chances. Um, >> yeah. It was called the Second Chance Act. >> Is that what it was called? Second Chance Act. The First Step Act. Zoom in. Formerly incarcerated, re-enter society, transform 115. 2018, President Donald Trump signed the act enacted several changes in a US federal criminal aimed at uh I can't see what that word is. >> Reforming federal prisons and sentencing laws in order to reduce recidivism. >> Got it. >> Decreasing federal inmate population. Basically, what that was was sort of the decriminalization of marijuana uh and other >> how different. So that's misdemeanor. You're saying felonies, >> correct? >> To try to get back into the system. >> Correct. No, no, no. These are people who have already done their time. This is taking away the stigma of having a felony conviction. Like um it's impossible to get a bank account. It's impossible to get a credit card. We're a cashless society right now or as close to cashless as you can get. So now you have to go to one of these third parties. is you got to constantly take cash and and re-up whatever your credit card is that you're using your debit card. Why? Why? Why should a felon, I don't care who that felon is, as long as it's nonviolent, that would >> fall under TPO, why should you not be able to open up a savings account or a checking account? You can only spend what's in there, right? There's no fraud that they could commit. So this too act my estimation would significantly change and I'm going to get attacked for this [ __ ] again right by the radical left. Why are you doing anything to help Trump? Why you doing anything to help Republicans? You're a Democrat. Been Democrat my whole life, right? Do you know when I was the vice chair of the RNC? I was the vice chair. There only four of us. >> Led by Steve Wyn, great guy. >> It's another one that was very hurtful. You know, we were very close and as as a direct result of what happened, they they went with the power. By the way, respect, understand it, but they did. Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, right? A lot of the a lot of these guys who I was very close to, but I was the vice chair of the RNC finance committee. I was a Democrat. >> You voted for Obama in '08, didn't you? You're you're >> Did you vote for Obama in08? >> I did. >> Yeah, you did. Yeah. So that's pretty wild to have that. So you're sitting there while you're a Democrat. By the way, >> do you know how many times that I had conversations with Trump about Obama? He would get angry at me. But it here's something that people don't know about Trump. >> And I wish and I pray that many of the enablers, the sicopants, the the cabinet, right, would tune into your podcast and hear these words. Trump doesn't want you to turn around and to be a bobblehead. He doesn't want you to agree with him. He doesn't care if you do or you don't. He's going to do what he wants anyway. He wants to hear your real thoughts. I was somebody who would push back with him on a regular basis. And I would say, you know, boss, I see where you're going with this, but you think maybe we can take a different route. One that doesn't seem so costic. One that does Let's all acknowledge, for example, we all want strong borders. >> Okay. Would you acknowledge you want strong borders? Would you acknowledge Trump's adage, >> a country without borders, quite frankly, isn't a country. Those are his words, not mine. >> I'm there as well. >> Okay. You acknowledge that? >> I do. Okay. I think it's also fair to say that ICE or having guys with masks, no identification, no um names, no ID numbers with AR-15s, many of whom are not properly trained. 47 days is certainly in my estimation not enough. I would like to see ICE stand down. I'm not saying don't guard a federal building if you think it's under assault. I'm just saying there's no need to ever turn around, put your hands on a woman, and throw her to the ground simply because she's filming simply because she's blowing a whistle. Again, you may think differently. Many of your listeners may think differently. It's my opinion, right? I don't put my hands on women. All right? And I don't believe that these guys should do it either. doesn't mean we can't get to the same ultimate goal, which is strong borders, which is knowing every single person who's coming into this country and residing here. I think it's all fair to say none of us want, for example, MS-13 in this country, not in our neighborhoods, not in this country. We don't want trend. >> I'm surprised when you say none of us want, what do you do when the borders are wide open? Who do you know who comes in? >> No point. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you keep the border, when when you say what you're saying, I have a rebuttal to that. One to me is why didn't Minnesota cooperate? Why why doesn't the local and the state police cooperate and send the reports to the government? Why doesn't LA and California cooperate? Why does why doesn't Maine, Chicago, Illinois? You can cooperate. If you don't cooperate, so what do I do? Don't send anybody there to not protect the people. I It's my responsibility to protect. And number two is >> well, it's actually really the governor's primary responsibility. Um, should they have come to the White House? >> By the way, >> he made the phone call. What did Trump do when he made the phone call? He picked it up. And what did Trump do? Trump's a reasonable guy. He came out of his way to to do what? Hey, tell me what you need. We're going to come help you out. Did you see when Tim Waltz announced that? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. It was all over the place. So, for Trump even tweeted about it, >> saying, "We spoke. He sounds reasonable. We're on the same page. We're going to work together because to him, the American people are first." And in regards to the woman is if I'm ICE, if I'm a cop and you're not following my orders, am I supposed to say don't put your hands on a woman? You you're asking to follow orders. If you do, do if you don't, I have to do what I have to do. Protect It's a very complicated issue here, Michael. >> It's complicated. However, >> however, what she what was she doing? Filming a first amendment protected constitutional right. All right. Um, there was no reason, you know, you know the old expression, you know, um, one bad apple spoils the bunch. I am never going to denigrate someone who puts on the uniform. Not the blue, not our military, ever. Ever. But then there's always the bad guys. There's always like in the mo like in the movie Stand by Me, one bad apple spoils the bunch. What about three or five? rotten to the freaking core. And by the way, sometimes, and by the way, it happens. And anybody can turn around, right? So, thank you for acknowledging that because there are bad people in everything. >> For sure. >> That doesn't mean that I should be um you know, taken apart. It shouldn't mean that. It just means that you have to keep an eye because especially you have two Americans who were killed who died who died unnecessarily unnecessarily. Nobody was a threat. >> Same with DC. Same with what happened in DC and how he cleaned up the streets in DC. And by the way, >> how about how about that poor that that poor um what do you call a a agent um ICE agent who was who was executed. Why? >> Why? We have a problem in this country. But but the but that's the sacrifice. That's the risk that comes with that job. Nobody chooses that job not knowing. >> But these were civilians. >> No, those are two. That's why I'm isolating the job of this person and we're talking civilians. No. >> By the way, can I get some more coffee? >> Absolutely. >> This, by the way, nothing for nothing, but this conversation, right, requires high octane. >> You require high octane, Patrick. >> Rob, would you mind having somebody grab some coffee, please? No, no, it's totally fine. They'll get it for you. By the way, with with the things that's going on with >> Are we still on? >> Yeah, we're still on. They're still recording. So, >> sorry about that, folks. It's like, you know, you get a little bit parchy. Patrick is tough, man. >> No, it's totally fine, >> man. You right wingers. >> So, uh uh what do you think when when all of a sudden Trump is like, "Yeah, we need Greenland. It's national security. We need it." Yeah. Cuba, you know, we'll see. We'll see what's going to happen. Venezuela. Hey, you know, boats one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Maduro has been captured middle of the night. What do you think about when he's doing what he's doing? How many of these things that you're seeing happening he talked about then that you're like, "Yeah, that's been part of his strategy. How many of it, how many of it is, nope. It's just off the cuff. He thinks it's a good idea. He executes." >> Okay. So, Venezuela was never a topic that we talked about. Not in 2011, not in 2015. >> Even with the oil stuff, >> that that was different. That was Iran. No, no, I know what I'm saying. Reneol, Western Hemisphere, oil. Okay. >> Never talked about it. Iran, he would talk about Barack Obama's birth certificate. We talked about uh a lot. Let Let me be crystal clear on something. Venezuela was never part of this. I have issues with whoever it is that is guiding him on this uh how do you call it? This um boondoggle. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> This boondoggle, as far as I see it, >> did you say boondoggle? >> Yeah. >> This the second time that word has been used in the last two days. >> Sorry about that. >> No, it's good. >> Why do I say that? First and foremost, fentinel doesn't come from Venezuela. >> Okay. >> Right. That's his own FBI, his own intelligence agencies are telling him or should be telling him that's not where Fentinel comes from. Fentinel comes from China and the bulk of it comes from China through Mexico. That's not Michael Cohen making assertions. That's facts that have been provided by his intelligence agencies. So, when you blow up an 18 ft aluminum boat that has the capacity of 80 miles, you would need to refuel that, I don't know, 112 times in order to get anywhere near US land. What's on those boats? Well, potentially cocaine, definitively marijuana. That's already been proven. and definitively fish because there are a couple of those boats that were fishermen. I have a real problem with that double strike, right? I I have I have a problem with it. It's a difficult operation in and of itself. I'm trying to understand exactly what the purpose of that military operation is. Is it regime change? If it's regime change, okay, that's a whole new conversation, Patrick, for you and me. It's a whole new conversation. I'm not opposed to regime change. In fact, the woman who picked me up yesterday from the airport and I engaged in a rather interesting conversation. She's from Brazil. She would love love Trump to invade Brazil and to get rid of the gangs that are destroying her country. S. Paulo nightmare. The killings nightmare. She would love him to do the exact same. This is a friend. >> This is the woman who drove me yesterday from the airport. >> Got it. She's telling you this. >> She's telling me the story. >> How amazing is that? Well, I mean, you got to think about because what Alandre de Morice and Lula did. Oh, >> could you say that again? >> Alandre de Mores. >> You sound like the guy from like the Modello commercial. >> Have you seen this guy? Have you seen what he looks like? Alexandra? Yes. Yeah. He is like a legit >> uh uh >> Oh, he's a gangster. >> He's a gangster. No, he's a legit gangster. They they they control the Supreme Court. They control Congress. They control Senate like 80 to 20, 90 to 10. The level of control that they have. And now there's a young guy, Nicholas U. Fera. I don't know if you're following that guy or not. He's 30 years old. He's pro he he's probably going to be saving Brazil. The guy is so capable, talented, and loved. >> Unless they take him out. >> That was her fear. >> So watch this. This Nicholas guy, Nicholas Fera, right there. Feer. Okay, Jay. Go to FEJ. If you go to FEJ, hang on, let me pull them up right now. Um, this guy when you see him, you won't believe how many Instagram followers he has and how much love he has from Brazil. >> Nicholas, can you follow me please on my YouTube? My Instagram. >> Can you Can you >> I've seen him. >> Yeah, he is a talent. >> Yep. >> A gifted talent. Rob, can you pull up his Instagram account just to show he's been doing a march in Brazil on his own. Look how many followers he's got at 30 years old. 20 million followers. 21 million followers. Go a little bit lower, Rob. Okay. You see that video to the top left that got 9.3 million likes. Can you click on it? How many views did it get, Rob? If you click on the view, if you click on the 9.3 on the bottom, it'll tell you that clip that he posted. Uh, it's not showing you that clip, I believe, got 300 million views. >> Wow. >> On Instagram. >> Wow. >> He has loved, admired. So, Brazil, a lot of Brazilians, similar to Venezuela. Uh, the difference is, you know, >> I have family that lives in Salo. >> You do? >> I do. Yeah. >> Yeah. I was there last year. I was there to uh uh go and visit with J. Boss and it was an incredible experience. The people are some of the most amazing >> people. We did a three and a half hour interview. And then the moment in the middle of the podcast, while we're doing the interview, reports come, he's getting arrested. He had to leave when the when the interview's going >> and that's why she wants a regime change there, too. But here's the problem with that. And I said to her, are we really wanting America to become the police of the world? While I acknowledge Brazil is problematic, there's a lot of places that are problematic. >> That's a very good debate. I think it's a very good debate. >> It's a fair debate. >> Yeah, I think it's a very fair debate to have. >> But you know what? Her belief there's only one person who actually has the balls big enough to do it. >> She's right. >> By the way, I didn't disagree with her. Well, for two reasons. one, she was driving kind of fast. >> Did she know who you were or No, >> I'm not sure. I don't think so. Got it. I really don't think so. But she was driving a little quick, so I didn't want to get her all excited, so I just agreed with her. >> She's not wrong. I mean, you know, I was born and raised in Iran, and a lot of people in Iran are wondering what's going to happen with Iran, and a lot of Iranians know there's only one guy that can help them be free, and it's him. And you know, he's already sent to what it's Abraham. Is it the Lincoln that's on its way? 5,800 soldiers and uh they're right outside. I think he moved Lincoln. >> What's the chance that he'll turn around and make like the USS Michael? >> Michael. USS Michael. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. Probably less than a 0% chance of that happening. I mean, I think >> let's start off with, you know, first call before we go making do. But anyways, Michael, it's uh I I've really enjoyed this. This was great. >> Is it what you thought it was going to be? >> Yes. I was walking this morning and I'm doing my workout and I'm like, I I I think this is going to be a good conversation. I think this is going to be a good conversation and let's see what's going to happen. There's a percentage of me I'm like, you know, is he going to come and try to make us, you know, be a a uh spectacle and do this? 10% chance. I mean, I'm like, maybe he's going to do that. But I have to tell you, I really enjoyed the conversation. >> As did I. >> I really enjoyed the conversation. Uh, I think you were fair in areas. You're giving your answers and the audience gets to decide and I'm sure you know a lot of people on your side are going to hate that you did this today. And I'm sure a lot of people on my side are going to sit there and say, "Why the hell would you have him on?" But I'm certain anybody that watched the whole thing is going to say, "I really really enjoy this conversation." I'm certain of it. I'm certain anybody at the end is going to say he was uh vulnerable. He was honest. He was transparent. And you know what? Let's see what happens next. keep you posted on that phone. >> Yeah, you sure you make sure you make that phone call. I will. Don't ask for the change of the name of the ship. I don't think that's a good idea, but all the other stuff. Go ahead and do it. >> Deal. >> Really enjoyed about it, Patrick. Thank you. >> All the best. Take care everybody. God bless. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. >> Hey, Michael Cohen here. Look, you all know who I am. Donald Trump's former personal attorney and fixer. A lot of things have taken place over the years. A lot of questions need to be answered. Well, you you may have a lot of questions. So, do me a favor. Anytime you want to ask me a question, feel free to reach out to me on the connect.