Members’ Business: The Growing Risk of Wildfires in Scotland

Thank you. Um we now move to our members business. It's a final line tip of business today. Um motion 878 in the name of Andrew Baxter on the growing risk of wildfires in Scotland. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put. I ask members who wish to speak in the debate to press the request to speak buttons. Now, can I also say this is very highly subscribed and it's likely we will have to extend the debate this evening. So, I call on Andrew Baxter 7 minutes, please. >> Uh, thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Uh, the smoke still hasn't ch cleared from the Kang Gorms wildfire, but already it feels uh to a certain extent that the Scottish government would rather dampen down questions about its response. For years, when we heard the world wild word wildfire, we pictured California, Australia, or Southern Europe. Hillsides glowing orange, communities evacuated, aircraft overhead, firefighters facing walls of flame, a hillside burning above communities, smoke stretching across the horizon, roads affected, businesses closing, residents leaving their homes. That wasn't California. That was the Kang Gorms. Deputy Presiding Officer, that distance has disappeared, and we have seen flames on Arthur's seat, not once, but twice this summer within sight of this parliament. Serious wildfire is no longer something that happens somewhere else. It is here. It is happening now. The question is whether Scotland is ready. In this debate, I wish to concentrate on three key issues. Response, resources, and responsibility. More than 100 firefighters were involved tackling the Kangs fire. Many of them retained crew. Alongside them, land managers, estate workers, rangers, and volunteers. Volunteers like those in Nevi Bridge, assisting with the evacuation of residents, transport, and feeding those on the ground tackling the fire. It is a scandal that it fell upon the community by crowdfunding over £130,000 to provide that welfare support. Surely it is the duty of the government and our fire and rescue service to do so. Community spirit is one of the great strengths of our country. But we cannot assume that good people will simply step in and somehow make things work. A Scottish Land and Estate survey found more than 40 businesses or organizations were involved. More than 50 employees and contractors volunteered or were made available. I'll give away to my uh colleague. >> Thank me Macallum. >> Sorry. Thank you very much for taking my intervention. You mentioned the goodwill of the community. I recently had the pleasure of meeting the volunteers at Balanour Fire Station and I would like to ask the member if he agrees that these remarkable volunteers are strongly dependent on the generosity of their employers to attend these fires at the sacrifice of those businesses. Moreover, does the member agree that more should be done to recognize the strain this puts on employers as wildfires become more common? Thank you, >> Andrew Baxter. I thank my colleague for the intervention. I of course absolutely agree. And it's not just the goodwill of the employees of our retained fire crews that we rely upon, but also the goodwill of land managers releasing uh staff uh from their jobs that also tackled not just the Kangs wildfire, but Daram Moore last year and others around the country. This response demonstrated extraordinary goodwill, but goodwill is not a resilient strategy. The question is not whether uh people responded. The question is whether the system was ready to make the best use of him. That same survey identified more than 250 pieces of specialist equipment and heavy plant worth nearly 6.4 million pounds. Yet there were recurring weaknesses in tasking, communications, welfare, command and control with capable volunteers and contractors left unused, turned away, or sent home. The problem was not simply whether resources existed. In some cases, resources existed, but the system was not ready to absorb them. Nobody is suggesting replacing professional firefighters, but when the next fire comes, local knowledge will matter, equipment will matter, training will matter, and minutes will matter. We need to examine whether properly trained, equipped, and insured insured local capability can work along the alongside the fire service under a clear command structure. Just as voluntary mountain rescue has complemented our emergency services for generations. What would have happened if another major wildfire had broken out in the same time? What if while resources were concentrated in the Kangorms, another major fire had taken hold somewhere on the west coast? Where would the firefighters come from? Where would the specialist equipment come from? Where would the aircraft come from? Of course, I give way to the cabinet secretary. >> Cabinet secretary. I I thank the member for giving way and I I in terms of his opening remarks um he will be aware that I'm giving a statement on this on Thursday. So far from seeking to dodge scrutiny or or questions about wildfires, the review that we're undertaking, I am bringing a statement to parliament on Thursday. In terms of what what we would have done had there been other wildfires at the same time, of course there were and that is the strength of the SC that having a national fire service able to deploy resources on a national basis. Does he not agree? And also ensuring that we are reviewing our wildfire strategy off the back of this with the input of local members with the input of uh those land managers and volunteers that he spoke of is about making sure that we get this right to ensure we can prevent it happening again. >> Andrew Baxter, >> I thank the cabinet secretary for his intervention. My point is that actually a national fire service in a highland context has exposed uh the strains upon the system and that we saw examples of crews being moved from the west coast to backfill uh stations on the east coast. If we had had another major wildfire on the West Coast, I'm sure that we would have struggled uh with the response that we could have uh provided because fires do not politely wait their turn. Emergencies do not check whether our resources are already committed elsewhere. The real resilience test is not whether we can fight one major wildfire. It is what happens when the second major one starts. That is why addressing our aerial capability is vital. Current arrangements rely heavily on private contractors who may be committed elsewhere, creating uncertainty and delays. We need a contractual mechanism guaranteeing access to appropriate helicopter assets during periods of very high and extreme wildfire risk. Preparedness means no delay to convene the Scottish government resilience room or requesting military help where appropriate. My third R is perhaps the most important. A responsibility, a responsibility shared between half a dozen organizations must never become responsibility owned by nobody. I'm not asking who commands firefighters on the ground. That responsibility is clear. I'm asking who in government owns Scotland's national readiness for wildfire, who ensures the resources are sufficient, who joins up the various agencies, and who checks that lessons learned were actually carried through. That's why I believe we need a director wildfire resilience response working across a government because government leadership doesn't mean that the cabinet secretary uh fights the fire. It means ministers ensuring that Scotland is ready before firefighters are asked to fight them. Cabinet Secretary, I do welcome much of the government's strategic action plan, but the Kang Gorms fire was its first real uh world test and today's evidence suggests that there is still a gulf between policy on paper and our capability on the ground. A strategy does not drive a fire engine. A strategy does not fly a helicopter. The test of a strategy is not whether it has been published. It is whether it works with the emergency comes. That is why today I'm asking the Scottish government to agree to my call for a cross party wildfire summit. And will the cabinet secretary commit to attending the public meeting organized by farmers and coffters in my constituency to answer questions about their response and how they are preparing for the future. There should be nothing party political about ensuring that Scotland is ready for the next wildfire. >> [applause] >> Thank you. We now move to the open debate. Um, four minute speeches, please. I call Laura Mitchell to be followed by M. Max Bannerman. >> Thank you, presiding officer. I commend Andrew Baxter as constituency MSP um on securing this debate. After a summer of wildfires across the UK, it is appropriate that the first member's business debate on our return is to consider and reflect on the response to the fur in the Kieran Gorms National Park and in other parts of the country. I of [clears throat] course want to begin my contribution by echoing the comments of Andrew Baxter and putting on record my own sincere thanks to our firefighters, emergency services and land workers who fought the fire over many weeks and in circumstances made all the tougher by the terrain and the weather conditions changing quickly. Whilst this fire was not in my constituency, like Andrew Baxter, I'm lucky to represent part of the Karen Gorms National Park and many of my constituents, firefighters and land workers were part of the response. Throughout the fire, responders were supported and cared for by the local community whose efforts were outstanding. And as our climate changes with hotter and drier periods, the risk of wildfires in Scotland and across these islands rises. So, it's crucial that the government, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, the National Parks, and the land owners take this opportunity to reflect on this latest large fire and ensure that lessons are learned. So, I welcome the cabinet secretary's decision to review Scotland's wildfire strategy, and I look forward to his statement later this week. I also welcome the commitment he gave in the chamber earlier today that frontline responders, those who bravely go towards danger, will be heard in this review. Having met with some of Murray's retained crews, there are three key themes I believe we must focus on. Prevention, preparedness, and PPE. Whilst we can't remove all risk of wildfires in Scotland, it is important that we look at what we can do to make these incidents less likely or less severe. There should be an evidence-based approach to fuel management and land breaks. And I hope the review will also consider what more can be done to reduce the use of disposable barbecues over spring and summer months. And on being prepared across Scotland, we must ensure that local response plans are in place long before a fire begins. These plans should ensure the agencies set out which areas are high-risisk, communication and engagement arrangements, and the equipment and resources that are available locally. Communication must be a key consideration in this review. Social media is a great tool, but we cannot rely on social media alone to communicate with everyone in a community in emergency situations like a wildfire. And on preparedness, we do need to have discussions with the UK government on the lack of military capability to support firefighting efforts in incidents like these. and on PPE. It's vital that retained and full-time crews who are expected to respond to these fires can access the correct wildfire clothing and equipment. I welcome the comments from the cabinet section in the chamber again earlier today, confirming that he's already raised the issues of PPE and training with the fire and rescue service and I am doing likewise on behalf of firefighters in my own constituency. I want to close by once again thanking all of those who responded to the fire. The review of the wildfire strategy is hugely important and we must get this right for the communities that will be affected by fires in the future and also for those who we call upon to respond to keep people and our communities safe. I look forward to engaging constructively with the Scottish government on these issues in the coming weeks. [applause] >> I call Max Bannerman to be followed by Donald McKinnon. Thank you, deputy presiding officer and can I thank Andrew Baxter for this debate to bring this debate forward. And you know, like him, I had many constituents contacting me when the fire was at its zenith uh with with real questions that they were looking to be answered. And I know that he like me was was meeting meeting them on the ground and and engaging directly with them. So, thank you to to him for bringing this debate forward. Rather than relitigating the sort of the narrative of the points that Andrew Baxter has made, I want to focus on what should happen from from here. I know that the minister is making a statement on Thursday. And again, I don't want to preempt that statement, but I'd like maybe to to focus his mind on some of the things that that I think the statement should contain and some of the things that I think he should go forward and and look at in in his role and in in the response to to to these events. So the the important thing is that this is a very long overdue debate for those of us in the north who have seen the increasing frequency and scale of wildfires for years. And what we need is a firm commitment and action from the government to supply new equipment. Simply reviewing the wild wildfire categorization policy will not resolve the obvious. We lack dedicated aerial firefighting resources. I would encourage the minister, if he hasn't already, to read the report the Scottish Land in the States published this morning, which um involved 40 business and organizations giving evidence to that report. It recorded that there were 300 days of volunteering by local uh volunteers on the ground, local land managers, estate workers, gamekeepers. I spoke to some of them myself at the agricultural shows in in the Highlands over the summer and it was important I think for for me as a regional member to to hear what they had to say and others will have will have done likewise. So looking at the the aerial firefighting issue, um there are private sectors firms in Scotland that have helicopters which are equipped to be able to flex into the role in the way that we would have liked to have seen more of in this on this event in this occasion. But none are safeguarded for a wildfire response. This was the main reason why the Davamure wildfire last year grew grew so large. When a helicopter was called to tackle the blaze, none were available. In fact, all of the helicopters equipped to carry the firefighting buckets had long-term bookings for film studios and were mounted with cameras at the time. [snorts] By contrast, European nations combined have 70 of the largest type of firefighting aircraft with around 600 dedicated aircraft in total. Scotland has only six of the smallest firefighting aircraft, none of which can be guaranteed to respond in an emergency. So I would ask the minister to go away and and look at that uh when he gives us before he gives a statement on Thursday. I will give way to him for >> cabinet secretary. Sorry that was me that was delayed. So >> I thank Max Bannon for for giving way and I appreciate the point that he's making. He will also appreciate that um aerial firefighting capability is not always the silver bullet and the Scottish fire rescue service absolutely clear that they have uh a plan based on um those been available or not but they are they have been incredibly helpful in parts of the tackling of the Kangorms wildfire. I am particularly interested in looking at our aerial capability, but not just in isolation here in Scotland, but also our aerial capability across the UK and working collectively because I think the wildfires across the UK this summer have exposed um this as being a weakness and I'm keen to work on a four nations basis to look at our own resilience but also to look at the the four nations response as well. >> Max Bannerman, >> thank you very much and I thank the cabinet secretary uh for that intervention. I don't really find I disagree with that. I think that in looking at this looking across foreign nations uh should should be something that that he goes away and looks at and I would certainly encourage him to talk to his counterparts um across all the devolved governments and the UK government but also to look abroad um as as I've mentioned in my speech there is example of this happening um in European countries in Australia I believe there's a specific example of a register of uh aerial uh um combating uh wildfire aircraft um which I I would encourage them to go away and and to look at. So just in closing, um I would say to and Baxter that I uh support his call for a a cross party summit on this. I look forward to working with him and with others as as we take this forward and without preempting the cabinet secretary's statement on Thursday. I hope he will go away and listen to the points that myself and others have made and come to parliament with some answers on this. Thank you. Um, can I call Donald McKinnon to be followed by Ariana Burgess? >> Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I draw members attention to my register of interest as a member of the Fire Brigade Union. Can I thank Andrew Baxter for securing this member's business debate this evening on what is such an important topic. The events of the summer must be a wakeup call. Our climate is changing and how we respond to that change will be critical. How we manage the land and how we resource our fire service are both crucial to that. On land management, there is no one-sizefits-all option. The area that burnt this summer was diverse with different habitat types. How land has been managed has changed over time, and that hasn't happened in a vacuum. Policy has played a role, but we need to do but what we need to do now is understand how these changes are impacting the resilience of the landscapes to fire and importantly how we can make those landscapes more resilient. Less grazing and changes in Murland management have increased fuel loads increasing risk while more broadleaf trees and petland restoration can improve resilience. But what is absolutely clear is that a full range of tools must be available to land managers to tackle the scale of the challenge and that includes controlled burning. The events of the summer have shown that the biggest resource in our rural areas and perhaps most important is the workforce on the land. Gamekeepers, foresters, coffters, farmers, and conservation workers who all worked with the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to bring these fires under control. Their skills and knowledge of the land proved invaluable and every effort must be made to ensure that their expertise is retained. Before the election, I served my community as an on call firefighter responding to our pagot. I've attended wildfires, although thankfully none at the scale of what we are considering today. On call firefighters serving in the retained duty system are on the front line of dealing with the challenge of wildfires and were to the forefront in the Kieran Gor Kieran Gorms fire. But too often the ask of them is increasing and the resources they are being provided with do not match the demands of the job. We will all have seen pictures and as Laura Mitchell mentioned earlier on of firefighters in structural firefighting kit rather than the dedicated wildfire gear which is being rolled out across the service. That roll out must be accelerated. The safety of our firefighters should always be the priority and they need the kit uh that they should have for for the the task that they're being tasked to. The location of dedicated wildfire units and the training of crews and wildfire techniques also needs to to be uh reviewed and the roll out of that sped up. Furthermore is the need of a for a review of aerial firefighting capabilities as has been discussed by other members. It is beyond time that the SFS had access to dedicated aerial support. Anecdotal evidence suggests that had Aerial support been available early on day one of the Kieran Gorms fire then this fire could have been brought under control much earlier. The financial cost of that delay is enormous. So too is the cost to the communities and the environment. More broadly, we still have far too many fire stations across the country that do not have the facilities for effective decontamination. Stations that do not even have showers. Excellent work by the FBU and their decon campaign has raised the serious issue of decontamination and the risks to firefighter health. Yet, we still have fire fighters unable to follow the established protocol due to a lack of facilities. These issues need to be resolved if recruitment problems are to be addressed across the retained duty system. I welcome the wildfire strategy and I look forward to hearing the cabinet secretary's statement later this week. But this must be backed by action. action to reverse the cuts to our fire service and invest in frontline services. Thank you. >> Thank you. Can I call Ariana Burches to be followed by Tim Eagle. Thank you. And can I uh give my thanks to Andrew Baxter for securing this very important debate this evening. I'm not going to rehearse things that have already been said. I want to cover a few areas this evening. Uh people, planet, and place. So, we saw an incredible response from the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, um, land managers and volunteers, conservation workers, and that has been acknowledged, and it's been great to see that happen and supported by the community. However, I want to back up the calls from the FBU. Um, I have spoken with firefighters who were on the ground there wearing their conventional regular kit, uh, rather than dedicated firefighting gear. And what I heard is that the jackets and the helmets were so heavy and hot that they were taking them off. So they were in the fire with with um high degrees of heat without any proper protection. So that absolutely needs to be rolled out as fast as possible and in particular to all the firefighters in Highland as a priority. In addition, level two equipment for firefighters. That's one of the things that they're calling for. So that they should be equipped with everyone again in Highland should be equipped with leaf blowers, cutters, and the adequate training for doing back burning and that kind of thing. Some of them arrive uh on site and feel like they're ill illprepared and they have to just sit there in their pump not actually being able to do things. I also uh want to pick up um Donald McKinnon's point about decontamination. I think that for me is a huge piece of my motivation for calling for fixedwing aerial support. Uh we are looking at people who are going into long uh fires, toxic air um for protracted periods of time, very very different situation than putting out a house fire. The these people have been in there for days. Um, so we need decontamination units, but we also need to really seriously consider the fixed wing aerial support. And the reason I'm calling for aircraft is because we can get a whole lot more water on the ground faster than the helicopters were able to drop. And I do uh I did hear the cabinet sec I will take an intervention but I did hear the cabinet secretary's points to Max Bannerman that you are that the cabinet secretary is looking for a foreign nation approach because I do think that is the way that we need to be going. We need that foreign nation reproach because that's going to be what makes most sense. Cabinet Secretary, >> I thank Karen Burgess for giving way and I I want to give her and colleagues who were corresponding with me during uh the wildfire some reassurance and I hope this came through in the correspondence back to colleagues as well that those issues that that Burgess has raised around PPE that Laura Mitchell's raised about PPE were raised directly with SFRS. Similarly, the points been raised around decontamination and others I've discussed with the fire brigades union and um the the chief fire officer. So this is all feeding into the review and u the of the wildfire strategy that has been asked for that I've asked for to ensure that we have the best possible posture informed by everybody's p perspectives and experiences both parliamentary and those that are responding on the ground. >> I I thank the cabinet secretary for that uh response. I mean I think I am a bit concerned. I really appreciate that there is going to be a review of the wildfire strategy, but that was just published in March of this year and we're reviewing it already. So, I I'm concerned about the level and depth that we get to in that review. And something that I heard from firefighters in terms of a comment that was brought up by uh Andrew Baxter about the fact that the community had to raise over £100,000 to feed the firefighters. The model that we have for fighting fires is really based around urban and buildings. Uh firefighters are normally given meal deals to go and get their food. So I had a community person saying what normally happens. This was someone who was running the community center and feeding people. But so so many points that need to be covered and I I don't have enough time in four minutes. I want to touch on planet and place. So um we absolutely need a resilient landscape and I know that there is work being done on that. Rewetting the land is absolutely needs what needs to happen. We are restoring petland but that needs to happen faster. We need to think differently about ancient woodland now as well. I think we need to absolutely be protecting that because if it's burning over here, it's a huge big carbon secret sequestration for us. Um, we need to actually really be protecting that mature broadleaf woodland and we really need to recognize that beavers are playing a role. What we saw from the Caring wildfire is that actually the area where the beavers had been building dams, the fire stopped and there was still green growing around those areas and we need to know as fast as possible who is doing controlled burning of our land and for what purpose. So I'm looking forward to that licensing rolling out and not no government hesitation on that. And briefly on place, we absolutely need to involve the whole community in this discussion because the community council uh at Nethi Bridge, they had an emergency plan, but they were shut out of action on the ground and that emergency plan detailed local available equipment that could have been deployed. Uh so there's something about building trust in communities at a local level so that before we get into the heat of the fire there's a trust of how to work together. So there's something for me around uh training um SFRS leadership in collaboration skills or anyone who is is going to be working in that kind of space. There were some great examples of collaboration. For example, Kangorbs National Park, they offered their thermal drain drone unit. So you could and then SFRS knew where to go in terms of the heat. And because FLS and this is a question I have as well, FLS workers could not go and fight the fire because they didn't have the training, but they did pay for the helicopter. But there is a question. There's a public body that owns a lot of uh owns a lot of uh land is responsible land, and they can't put the fire out. So finally, let's call for a UK climate shock fund and I look forward to a summit on Scottish landscape resilience. >> Thank you. Can I call Timmy Gold to be followed by Don Black? >> I I feel for you, Arian Burgess there. I've got lots I would like to say as well. So we could all take 10 minutes to do that in I don't know if my Well, first of all, thank you to Andrew Baxter. I bringing this debate is actually really very welcome. Although for myself and Emma Rodic, I imagine we're thinking deja vu because we were standing here on the 18th of September 2025, nearly a year to the day. And what were we discussing? Exactly this. We were discussing wildfires cuz there had just been the one of the largest wildfires, in fact, the largest wildfire in the UK in Dar. And we were saying to Scottish government, do you think do you think we need to do something about this because it's pretty serious and at some point communities are going to burn down. So this isn't a new debate for those of us that were here before. I realize that some people are new and it's great to see some of those new MSPs coming in discussing. But this was a serious issue before. It was brought by Emirrodic to this chamber and actually I'm slightly missing Fergus Euing as well who would be trembling with annoyance I imagine if he was still sitting at the back of this chamber listening to what is going on. I happen to be traveling back from uh Glen Co actually on the 15th of July and I was coming across um happy to take an intervention >> cabinet secretary. I appreciate Tim Eagle given intervention and also the fact that him alongside Emirrodic, Jim Fairley is here and others have have fed in quite a bit of work into this process. So to answer both Tamagel in terms of, you know, what is happening, what has happened and Arian Burgess saying, you know, the wildfire strategy only published in March. I'm not necessarily looking to entirely reinvent the wheel. What I'm looking to do is review the pace at which the actions that came through in that March strategy have um come about and whether or not there are other areas that we need to touch upon to make sure that we're as as responsive as possible for the very reasons that Tammy Eagle is setting out. >> Tim, >> that that's actually quite a welcome statement and I and I'll give that because I didn't entirely disagree with um uh the strategy that was put forward by the Scottish government, but it was the pace of change. It was the actions. You can do a lot of talking and a lot of writing, but actually what was the action on the ground? And I think what we've seen with the Kangon wildfire this year and and remember this is a very dangerous wildfire. I've had more than one person. I've been down to Nethi Bridge twice now to speak to different people and several people have said uh but for the sheer luck of the wind changing Ney Bridge could have burnt down. So we don't want to go there but it potentially we could end up in a situation years to come where it could be that actually houses are burning and I think we saw that in England uh earlier on this year as well. So there is a there is a great concern. So I think we need pace of change. Now we've spoken about area support. We've spoken about PPE. All of that's going to come out in the wash, isn't it? Over the next few months uh moving forwards. I want to get to a point that Andrew Baxter raised at the end. The Kangor coffters and farmers are organized a meeting I believe on the 18th of September at 6 p.m. They have asked the cabinet secretary if he will come along and give a speech and answer questions. Happy to give another intervention if the min this cabinet secretary can confirm whether or not. I'll let him come back in on that. But I think it would be really welcome for you to be there. I've double checked Apodine aren't playing that day, so you should be free to come along. Um, but it'd be really good if you could be there uh to listen to them and answer questions to them because these are people who've got really very serious concerns about what happened. And I just want to pick up on the SLE report, Scottish Landing State report today. One of the things at the very end of that was talking about that we can no longer in Scotland rely on the goodwill of volunteers, but we need a planned response to these events. There were circumstances where volunteers were bringing very heavy equipment uh down to Nephi Bridge to try and help and they were left in the unknown. They didn't know who to talk to. There was good machines there that could have helped create more of those fire breaks that we needed or done other work and they weren't utilized because the structure just wasn't there. All I am asking for, cabinet secretary, all I am asking the Scottish government for is to make sure that structure is there, it is planned, and it is coordinated so the communities don't face a risk in the future. Thank you, presiding officer. >> Thank you, uh, Don Black to be followed by Victor Curry. >> Thank you, presiding officer, and I also want to thank Andrew Baxter for bringing this member's business debate to the chamber. I like others here am deeply concerned about the growing number and severity of wildfires that Scotland has experienced in recent years and others have highlighted the response to the devastating Ken Gorms wildfire this summer which demonstrated the immense damage that such incidents can cause to communities businesses and natural habitats and the ch and the challenges for our fire service. Therefore, I think it is vital that we do all we can to actually reduce the risk of wildfires occurring in the first place. And being someone who focuses on solutions and recognizing that there are many causes of wildfires and and that there there is also a need for some culture changes around responsible access to the countryside. I'm going to focus in on one source of ignition risk, disposable barbecues, because fire prevention starts long before the first emergency call is even made. These items present at significant risk to the public as they are have significant um potential of ignition for wildfires during periods of warm and dry weather. And while many people use them responsibly, it takes just one act of carelessness to spark a significant wildfire. And they also inflict damage to surfaces they're placed upon, scarring the ground and melting or charring picnic tables in our parks. For example, in 2025, in 2025, wildfires on the cliffs of Denota Castle in my constituency and in the Glenn Fingless region of the Trosk were caused by disposable barbecues. And this year, another barbecue caused a fire on Yellow Craig Beach. These incidents are happening too often. And as members are aware, under the local government Scotland act of 1973 to introduce bylaws, local authorities already have the powers restricting the use of barbecues, including the disposable kind in connection to preventing the risk of wildfire. And Scotland's park authorities can also introduce such bylaws and both the Kang Gorms National Park and the Lachlund and Trosk National Park have taken advantage of this. Yes, absolutely. cabinet secretary has made a a really helpful point here that the bylaws that are in place although we're here to talk about a a very serious wildfire in the car and gorms what we have seen with regards to use of uh disposable barbecues in the Ken Gorms National Park as a result of uh local bylaws has seen a significant reduction in the risk to wildfire occurring there and I think it and the prevention point that needs to be wrapped up in the review that Andrew Baxer has talked about that Tim Eagle's talked Don Black is talking about this type of action needs to be part of it to ensure that human behavior is responsible during times of extreme weather that we've seen during the summer. >> One black. >> Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and I I welcome those remarks. Um so two national parks have actually taken advantage of the of this and but having engaged with the local authorities in my constituency of Angus and Abodinia councils they've raised the challenge of actually insure in enforcing any bylaw particularly given limited local authority resources >> yes I will sending them away the national parks one of the most um difficult challenges ies for our local authorities is the cost and the time of introducing that bylaw in the first place. Do you think there's a case for the cabinet secretary to review that process to make it easier for our local authorities to tackle that issue? >> Done. >> Absolutely I do and um cost is one of the points I was going to be coming on to but absolutely I think that's something that we could take ahead as well. Um so they take a significant amount of time and resource to actually develop and implement generally about four years from incept inception to implementation and it costs tens of thousands of pounds in costs to our local authorities which is why they're so prohibitive. So as a result they told me that their focus is on working with land owners to discourage the use of fire in high-risisk areas and on promoting wildfire awareness through signage and on social media. And while those efforts locally are important, they also highlight the limitations of solely relying on that local action. If enforcement is difficult at a local level, there's a strong case for a national approach that provides consistency across the whole of Scotland, removes uncertainty for the public and businesses on where and when these items can and cannot be used, and reduces the burden on individual local authorities and indeed the emergency services. In my view, a peace meal approach is no longer satisfactory given the risk. Now, it's notable that this summer, some retailers have voluntarily stopped selling disposable barbecues, but recent events have demonstrated that voluntary action alone is not enough. And we cannot rely on the goodwill of individual businesses to protect communities from wildfire risk. A consistent national approach would provide clarity for retailers, certainty for consumers, and greater protection for the public and the environment. And I also must come to conclusions. >> Yeah. And I also believe that the permanent ban extends extends beyond wildfire protection because these things are not recyclable. Um I did recently submit a motion um on this subject and I was really glad to see cross party support for it. So I think it's something that we really do want to take ahead even though I recognize that this is not within the remit of the Scottish government and work needs to be done with the UK government um to to bring this to pass. Um so in conclusion um I would say that banning disposable barbecues is not a silver bullet but and a holistic approach to prevention is needed but a ban would clear send a clear message that we as a nation recognize the escalating nature of the risk and if we can act to show leadership then we should. Thank you. >> Thank you. Uh due to the number of members who wish to speak in the debate, I'm minded to accept a motion without notice under rule 8.14.3 to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes. And I now invite Andrew Baxter to move a motion without notice. >> U move deputy presiding officer. >> Thank you. Uh the question is that the debate be extended by 30 minutes. Are we all agreed? >> Thank you. I now call Victor Curry to be followed by Finley Carson. >> Deputy Presiding Officer, thank you and I thank the cabinet secretary for remaining in chamber for this debate and for Andrew Becker for bringing it. I rise today to address the increasing risk of wildfires here in Scotland. A matter of grave concern to myself and many of my constituents given the recent events. I largely supplement but sometimes complement the points raised by Andrew Baxter, my colleague Beex Banaman, Donald McKinnon, other contributions as well as Marvin May McCallum's intervention. Our country witnessed a cataclysmic blaze that scorched over 30 square kilometers of Murland, ancient Calonian pine forest and precious ecosystem. Now, before addressing the failures that allowed this crisis to compound, I must pay tribute to the extraordinary bravery of our frontline responders. Scores of firefighters put their lives on the line to battle this inferno. And alongside them stood an army of local volunteers, land managers, and gamekeepers. These rural workers used their own specialist machinery and their intimate knowledge of the landscape to bulldoze emergency fire breaks, saving centuries old trees from complete destruction. They showed rural Scotland at its absolute best. But deputy presiding officer, while local communities and emergency services displayed unparalleled resolve, the political response from the Scottish government exposed a dangerous bureaucratic weakness. The fire broke out near Glenmore on the 15th of July, and it was about 9 days before the relevant cabinet uh secretaries uh gathered at the Scottish government's resilience room, at which point residents in Netty Bridge were already being evacuated from their homes. To the people on the ground, this delay felt less like a coordinated strategy and more like closing the stable door after the horse had bolted. Worse still was the unjustifiable refusal of additional help. When the UK government offered military assistance to bolster the exhaust crews on the ground, the justice secretary rejected it. The administration claimed that the military lacked the specific water bombing capabilities. But thinking a little more laterally, the logistical support, ground transport and manpower. >> Yes, >> cabinet secretary. >> Just to reassure Victor Curry, I was receiving daily, in fact more than daily, updates from the Scottish fire and rescue service and the local resilience partnership in incidents like this have the primary responsibility of responding to an incident like this. And on the military aid point, the the ask that was made was because of the very specific request at that weekend that came from the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. The UK government's response was that he couldn't meet with that uh ask. That is why the offer that was made was turned down because the very specific ask of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, not of the government, could not be met by the UK government. And I think in response uh to um I think it I can't remember who it was made an intervention on in terms of a UKwide uh look at our resilience. I think that is a question that needs to be posed on a foreign nations basis. Why we do not have UKbased water bombing capability and our UK military? >> Victor can. >> So I completely accept the cabinet secretary's point on lines of operational responsibility and the request speeding up to the Scottish government then onto the military. However, the offer was there was there from the military for logistical support, ground transport and manpower. And while while yeah, while that wasn't specifically requested by the Scottish fire and rescue service, I would state that it's a question of state craft for the Scottish government to get ahead of these problems. So more manpower, more logistical support would be exactly what an exhausted fire service would need during a prolonged multi-week siege. and turning away that valuable source during a national emergency. I'll take the intervention. >> Cabinet Secretary, >> just officer, I I I just want to be clear that is not the ask that was made by the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. That is not what was requested. >> Victor K, >> I accept that. And again, I'd make the point that perhaps taking uh offer of help when offered would be it would have been better in this situation to ensure we had the spare capacity should the situation have got any worse. So turning away that valuable n that that resource during a national emergency simply because of where the offer origin originated from did create an image of political posturing above public safety. Deputy Presiding Officer, we are told by government ministers that we must simply adapt to a changing climate as if these blazes are inevitable. But this is an invasion of responsibility. They're an annual threat in Scotland. Yet our response mechanisms remain completely ad hoc. To supplement Max Bannerman's uh statement on the report by SLE, um private sector and local volunteers not only um contributed 300 days of voluntary work, but also 6.4 4 million pounds worth of their own equipment. We can see that Scotland is relying on the goodwill and improvisation of rural communities because the government has failed to build a formal exercised resilience system. At the same time, this administration's ideological crusade against traditional land management is actively disarming the people who know how to fight these fires. Restricting license must come to a conclusion. >> Oh, okay. Um, by restricting urban licenses, we're discouraging investment in the very rural workers who understand the behavior and possess the skills. Yes, I'll take it. >> No. Um, sorry, Minister, the members in his closing remarks. >> So, look, to put you at ease, my party is not here to indulge in empty rhetoric or assign blame for the sake of grievance. We are here to help furnish some common sense solutions for working people in rural communities. So to conclude in the formulation of the ministerial statement, uh I would argue we need a dedicated helicopter and pilot framework with guaranteed availability and mobilization standards. Be that a fornation um solution or unilaterally, whatever works best for our communities. An integrated wildlife management plan that treats gamekeepers, farmers, and land managers as official partners and not inconveniences. and proper funding and staffing for a rural fire station so our communities are never left vulnerable again. >> The member must conclude now. >> Okay. I look forward to the cabinet secretary statement and hope that the points from across this chamber will be drawn upon when formulating a long long-term strategy for our country. Thank you deputy providing officer. >> I call Finley Carson to be followed by Yep Chow Tury. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I congratulate Andrew Vax for bringing this timely debate to the chamber. Official uh figures show an alarming increase in wildfires across Scotland. Uh there's been a recorded 238 in 2025 compared to just 55 the previous year, a rise of 330%. One of the most devastating recent wildfires occurred in Galloway where a blaze burned an area almost six times the size of the town of Dfree and taking four days just to bring it under control. The damage to wildlife, forestry and local habitats was immense, mirrored this summer of course in the Ken Gorms National Park, disrupting local businesses and required a huge firefighting effort to contain. The Scottish government rightly provided financial support to businesses affected by the Kenorn's fire, although I'm not aware of similar assistance being made available to affected communities in my own part of the country. We've even seen uh fires in Hollywood Park in Edinburgh. So, it's clear that this issue extends, this threat extends right across Scotland. These wildfires should serve as a wake-up call. They have the demonstration uh demonstrate the far-reaching consequences of uncontrolled fire for communities, businesses, wildlife, and emergency services. But of course, prevention starts long before the first emergency call is made. Those who manage Scotland's landscapes every day must have the tools and flexibility uh needed to reduce risk before fire takes hold. Farmers, coffters, gamekeepers, estate staff and other land managers play a vital role in maintaining resilient landscapes. They manage vegetation, understand local terrain and access routes and are often among the first to identify our fire to identify our fire identify fire incidents. During the recent wildfire, many worked alongside our firefighters providing local expertise, equipment, and manpower. Ministers must ensure that those, excuse me, those who live in the rural areas are fully involved in developing that wildfire policy. That's why many stakeholders have raised concerns about the Scottish government's Mureburn licensing regime. Responsible Mureburn carried out by skilled practitioners and appropriate conditions remains an important tool for managing vegetation. reducing fuel loads and helping prevent the spread of uncontrolled fires. NFS Scotland and others have warned that the new licensing requirement could create unnecessary barriers to effective land management at a time where wildfire prevention is becoming increasingly important. >> Yeah, certainly will. >> Minister, >> I have absolutely no doubt that there is no one in this chamber who is anything other than trying to find the right solutions. But there must be clarity here. There is no Mureburn licensing scheme in play right now. So the last fires that we've seen over the last couple of years have got nothing to do with a licensing scheme. But would the member accept that well-trained local people who know the ground who have got that Mureburn license will be a far greater asset to the community resilience than having nothing at all. And I'll point one point I'll make one point. When I delayed the Mureburn licensing scheme last year, the very next day somebody set a fire with no license, no training, nothing which then got out of control. So the value in the Mureburn licensing scheme is so that we've got people properly trained on the ground to do it. That's not to diminish what keepers and farmers currently do and we're taking that into account, but the implementation of the scheme allows us to make sure there's resilience in the communities that we're trying to protect. V Carson >> prevention I I I don't think you know that's not the point I was driving at. What we've got to make sure is that any licensing scheme should lead to a safer landscape not a bureaucratic hurdle that needs to be uh jumped over and undermines the real practical uh prevention measures that we know these uh land managers can put in place. And there is concerns with the stakeholders. That that's my point. There's there's there's concerns as as Scottish conservatives. We've consistently advocated for a balanced evidence-led approach that recognizes the contribution of responsible mureburn alongside grazing, habitat management, other measures which reduce wildfire risk while supporting biodiversity and rural livelihoods. Um I recently visited Karifan Woodlands uh near Moffett where uh the restoration of the the environment there has created a very wet uh and green landscape which is a natural fire break and I commend the the volunteers that have have created uh that new woodland. But during the passage of the land reform and natural environment legislation, we proposed amendments designed to strengthen Scotland's ability to prevent and respond to wildfires. Unfortunately, those measures were not supported by the Scottish government and therefore a call for uh a renewed pause, a continued pause in the licensing scheme to ensure that everybody's on board that it's practical, proportionate, and doesn't inadvertently increase wildfire risk. At the same time, we recognize that wildfire risk is driven by multiple factors. Environmental organizations have highlighted the impact of the prolonged dry weather that we're seeing. While many fires are caused by avoidable human actions such as discarded cigarettes and and a temporary barbecues. Um >> the member must come to a conclusion. >> Okay. Uh thank you presiding officer. Prevention requires active land management, strong partnership, public awareness, and properly equipped emergency services. The ministers must now work with all relevant organizations and rural communities to deliver a coordinated national wildfire strategy that puts prevention, preparedness and partnership at its heart. >> I call Yep. Chowo Turvy to be followed by Emma Rodic. Thank thank you deputy officers and can I thanks my colleague Andrew Baxter for his brilliant effort in bringing this critical issue to the table directly after all return to parliament. After a summer recess filled with the risk and the reality of wildfire across my region as well and across Scotland in general, there have never been a more important time to bring order and reason to a system that for too long has rely on luck, good fortune, and fate. Outside the central belt, there exists a different type of Scotland that many of my colleagues across the chamber know well. Whether that be our island communities, rural communities in the borders and across our communities like where I live in world lab just 30 minutes drive to the national park. We are no stranger in driving in snow and ice. We know that heat in your homes doesn't always mean turning the diet on the wall. We face shortages in supermarket where the weather is poor. We know which road to avoid in bad weather. And we never take for granted that mother nature will be kind. So we learn to be self reliant. We are resilient which doesn't mean every man for himself but does mean that we offer to have to create infrastructure within our own community to do our best to protect the success and safety of our families, businesses and homes. This summer that network of self reliances was tested. The wildfire were met and extended by our fantastic Turkish fire and rescue service. Yes, but not without the support of the network of machineries, man lovers and skills knowledge of those who live and work in these rural communities. Side by side, the Scottish fire and rescue services, they fought to protect the home livelihood and the land we all value as natural and economic resource. But as my colleague Andrew has stated, white life are not polite and they will wait for no one. When the wind carried the smoke and the dust across through all Abinshshire all the way to Abodin, people were shocked and many felt unwell. But for us, it was just one day and yet the fire has already been raging in Glenmore and Strati for over nine days by that time. As one local resident said to me, looking at the blur sky and the orange sun, it looked apocalyptic. And I said to her that Andrew's constituenc further dry summers awaits us. And I repeat my colleagues call for round table. We need to listen to the experience of those who met this challenge on the ground to help us prepare for the future. And I agree with the recommendation of the Scottish land and estate to build and maintain a live wildfire capability register via the community assets register. This should cover estates, farms, contractors, plant hire businesses, forestry operators, wildfire constit consultants and conservation bodies, recording equipment types, operator availabilities, training, insurance, transport requirement and mobilization constraints. There is an informal network of goodwill that as was been seen during this summer's wildfires was not always used to its potential. Recognizing the unique situation faced by rural Scotland when it comes to fighting wildfire is critical for an improved response the next time we face these issues. I also stand by local voices who question the revised Morg Melbourne code. Does it serve to protect the communities it affects? Or as I've learned with meeting with NFU and our farming communities, we may be failing to listen to the voice of those on the ground who hold the expertise in managing the land for the combined benefits of the environment, local economy, and our safety. Because without the right preventive measures, there will be no biodiversity left to protect. I hear time and again that value in live experience is central to the Scottish government's vision for Scotland fit for all. I call on the Scottish government not to forget the voices of those who stood to press back against the region fires this summer. Listen when they tell you provide joinup leadership in the face of crisis that unites establish fire and rescue services alongside the existing network of private and third sectors emergency response properly >> sorry um minister you are over time I'm afraid you have to come to a conclusion >> yes I'm at the end properly fund the Scottish fire rescue services so it's fit for purpose that's the only way we can prevent future disaster from which nature may not be able to recover. Thank you. I call Emma Rodic to be followed by Katie Clark. >> Thank you, presiding officer and um I join other colleagues in thanking Andrew Baxter for uh bringing this motion forward and for recently supporting my own efforts to bring forward a debate on Rigmore Hospital, which I'm glad to see he's no longer in unable to lead this debate. I will take the opportunity as well to put on the record that I'm looking forward to working with him on shared uh issues of importance to our neighboring constituencies and that we can agree on which I think there are already a fair few. Many of my friends, family and constituents shared my absolute heartbreak at the sign of the Karen Gorms on fire this summer just as we felt last year when fire took hold in Dava. Hourly, I was seeing updates on social media of how businesses were being impacted, biodiversity threatened, and residents affected. Even for those of us who live further up the road, it is hard to describe the grief that folk in the Highlands feel when we see the land on fire. It is deeply personal and devastating. For the families of those fighting the fire, there were many questions that have been already covered in this debate, which I hope you will hear more detailed answers to this week around protection, resources, and equipment. I'm very keen that we in this place explore every option to make that site and all the damage that it causes far less common and these incidents shorter and less severe. What was most clearly and repeatedly asked for and needed was further air support. I was glad to see the Scottish government explore options for that, particularly that it requested support from UK ministers. And now that we have that answer that those resources don't exist, it is time to kit ourselves out. reactive specialist air resource is necessary to fight fires like this one as quickly as possible. There is also a role for prevention. Uh last session I successfully amended the now natural environment act to allow local authorities to implement local bylaws to prevent those fires from occurring in the first place. I'm very keen to see those provisions enacted and the opportunity then taken by councils which I made clear to the Highland Council last week. I also took part in cross party meetings last year as Tigle hinted at and there was a lot of we need a whole approach. Uh we need to look at everything all at once and take our time. Um and I understand that position but actually there are things that we can all agree on and just get on with now while we take our time on those long-term strategies so that we aren't having this exact debate again next autumn. We have to use every tool at our disposal to prevent as well as effectively tackle what is likely to be a regular occurrence. It should be obvious to visitors and locals that setting fires and barbecues in the height of summer when you're surrounded by vegetation is not a great idea. Sadly, that is not the case. So, there is an important role for messaging that makes this clear and penalty schemes that support local rangers to travel around high-risk areas and put a stop to risky behavior. It is also incredibly important when it comes to events like this which threaten lives, livelihoods, and health that public messaging is clear, consistent across different agencies, and considered trustworthy. While I appreciated the the very regular updates from the cabinet secretary throughout, there was widespread confusion about some media lines which suggested the fire had been dealt with while volunteers and partners continued to fight it days before an increase in the severity and a change in direction caused evacuations. And I think that messaging also merits some review. It is clear that extreme weather events are not something that we can immediately put a stop to on our own. Plans to tackle wildfires are required regardless of the strength of our climate commitments. But that does not mean that there is a case to reduce any of those efforts. The link is clear and we have to continue to do our part in that particular battle while also looking at on the ground efforts to prevent and tackle wildfires and flooding in our communities. So I look forward to continuing to work with colleagues across parties through the rural affairs committee and in any other opportunities that we have over the next five years to make progress on this issue. Thank you very much. Uh, I call Katie Clark to be followed by Alex Alexander Bernett. >> Thank you, presiding officer, and I congratulate Andrew Baxter on securing this debate. Last year, the UK experienced its worst ever year on record for wildfires. Three of the five largest wildfires to ever occur in the UK have happened here in Scotland in recent years. I paid tribute to the firefighters here in Scotland and indeed across the UK and Europe who put their lives at risk this summer in the face of significant fire wildfires. A number of firefighters lost their lives fighting wildfires in Europe this summer. These wildfires are not isolated incidents but a clear sign of the growing wildfire risk being driven primarily by climate change. As Emma Rodick says, it's likely that this is going to become a regular occurrence. Well, there are those who will seek to deny climate change or to minimize the risks that it poses. The need for action to tackle climate change is greater than ever. And this includes doing all we can to ensure the risk of wildfires is reduced, but also that we deal with them better when they occur. The climate change committee warned back in May that the UK is hugely underprepared for the impact of climate change. I welcome the review that the Scottish government has spoken about in relation to how we deal with wildfires here in Scotland. But we have to recognize that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is not properly funded and resourced to tackle the risk of wildfires. The recent Korum's wildfire required a huge operational response spanning weeks with over 500 firefighters and appliances being deployed from across Scotland. But despite the tireless dedication and efforts of those firefighters to get the wildfire under under control, it exposed the impact that over a decade of cuts have had on the Scottish fire and rescue service. >> Of course I will. >> Minister also recognize that a significant contributor to the wildfires is fuel load and therefore land management has to be done to reduce that fuel load across all landscapes. >> Peter Clark, >> the minister and there's no doubt many factors and many of those factors have been referred to in the debate today. But this is not just a Scottish problem. This is a problem across Europe and indeed far wider. And we all know what happened across the world um and particularly um in Europe this summer as a result of climate change and the increased temperatures that we're all having to experience. 1,239 firefighter jobs have been lost since 2012 2013 representing almost a sixth of the total uniformed workforce. firefighters were deployed from across Scotland um to deal with the Karen Gorms wildfire and that obviously had an impact in other parts of Scotland and other members have already spoken about how we would deal with multiple wildfires taking place in different parts of Scotland. We know that over the last decade fire appliances have been withdrawn and that many appliances remain unavailable due to crewing shortages. We also know that there's been a failure to acquire acquire vital appliances like firefighting helicopters which might have helped at Karen Gorms. Collectively agreed safe crewing levels are regularly breached putting firefighters at greater risk in situations such as wildfires. We also know that other firefighters at wildfires including on Arthur's seat right um on our door stop are far from a one-off incident that the Scottish fire and rescue service um should respond to. So as part of this debate we need to look at the service delivery review which should have reflected the growing threat from climate change including the risk of wildfires. However, the service delivery review instead and of course I'll sorry again we're over time and you must I will conclude to the minister. Um but the point clearly I'm trying to make is that we need need to look at both the cuts that have taken place but the proposals for cuts of 166 firefighters jobs which would be lost the multiple frontline appliances that will be be withdrawn and the stations that would be closed if the proposals on the table now go ahead. Both the Scottish fire and rescue service and the fire brigade union are calling for a national conversation. I hope that they're included in the conversation and the minister refers to that um in the winding up, but I would urge that we look again at some of the proposals on the table now in light of events this summer um because this is the wrong direction of travel. >> Thank you. Um we are very tight for time and having already extended the debate, we can't do so again. Uh any interventions will have to be absorbed in the four minutes allocated to the final speakers, but hopefully we will get everyone in. So we're going to call Alexander Bernett to be followed by Duncan Dunlop. >> Uh thank you deputy residing officer. Now the Kang wildfire caused great disruption and concern amongst local communities and credit to Andrew Baxter for bringing this subject to debate and our fire service and volunteers bravely tackled the fire. And I want to say a huge thank you to our firefighters, volunteers, land managers, and communities who all played a role in extinguishing the fire. But the delay in the S&P declaring a national incident, having been forced into it by the fire and rescue service, is clearly a matter for separate discussion. And I note the cabinet secretary's earlier comments. And whilst the fire itself stopped just short of Abedine West, the smoke covered it, even reaching Abedine, impacting local businesses and events across the Northeast. So I hope the Scottish government rethinks its financial support uh out with the area currently allotted. Uh there are however several issues that need addressing and I hope the minister will look into these. The first is insurance as volunteers and equipment from estates are not insured meaning people are having to take risks that the government are not prepared to underwrite. Unless this is resolved the army of volunteers and equipment will not always be available. Secondly, firefighters are angry at being illequipped for dealing with hill fires. A point raised by uh some other members tonight. Specialist equipment is lightweight and many firefighters were having to wear full gear which is wholly unsuitable to the terrain. And thirdly, whilst the changing climate certainly produces the conditions, these fires are not the product of spontaneous combustion and further education is required around reasonable access and the disposable barbecues also already mentioned. But the biggest issue I wish to make this evening is around the everinccreasing fuel load which is a direct result of the S&P's poorly thoughtout mure burn regulations. Restrictions on mure burn are leading to higher No. No. We've had enough interventions to higher fuel loads with more surface vegetation. Thank you, Minister. >> Available to feed wildfires. I've heard the minister stand already and intervene. And his points are wholly wrong. If he continues down this ploy of opposing all grousemore management, there will be nobody left to apply for his mure burn licenses because allowing biomass to increase and encouraging reing whilst the climate is getting hotter and drier is dangerous and this is a problem which is only getting worse. SLE's excellent report states that much of the estate-based equipment, trained personnel, and fire behavior knowledge exists because estates undertake and prepare for planned Mureburn. Yet, the briefings for this debate from the RSBB and link fail to mention the importance of keeping fuel load at safe levels. This avoidance of the issue is a huge concern and one based in ideology, not fact. One person affected wrote, "When my husband arrived on site with another local land manager, FLS personnel were horrified at the suggestion of bulldozing swaves of trees and vegetation to create a fire break. They appeared more concerned about the regen than about the prospect of people's homes and businesses being destroyed, even though that regen was likely to burn anyway. So if those that have caused this problem can't accept accountability, then rural communities will continue to be at risk. And another aspect that became evident was a policy uh of these bodies of not just preventing new mountain tracks, but spending money filling in old tracks. If a fire had crossed over into the national trust estate at Mar Lodge, it would have been impossible to get fire engines and crews to the scene. So taxpayers have a right to know the full cost of a fire and how public money is being allocated to charities and public bodies who are failing wildfire prevention. The sentiment amongst local communities is that the government is not taking wildfire risk seriously. They are not listening to land owners and managers who have the local knowledge and expertise to prevent and prepare for wildfires. The government must rethink its Muaburn policy and allow responsible Mure to prevent the threat of further wildfires to homes, businesses, and communities. Thank you. >> Thank you. I remember that the only person speaking should be the person with the microphone. Um I'm afraid I am only going to call be able to call one more speaker and that's Duncan Dop. >> Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. My colleague Andrew Baxter is absolutely right to highlight that our resilience to wildfires is not good enough and I hope that the government the cabinet secretary has listened carefully to the points that have been made today. Maybe I should note a register of interest. I'm not sure make the formal one that my first ever job paid job was heather burning not control burning but to improve grazing mainly for sheep. How times have changed because they never got out of control in March in the late 1980s. What I want to focus on today is in particular is our petlands. Scotland's petlands are one of our greatest n natural assets. They store enormous amounts of carbon, help regulate our water, support biodiversity, and play a crucial role in tackling climate change. I recently was lucky enough to meet scientists from the worldleading UK center for ecology and hydrarology at their site in a petland outside Pennyuk. They explained how damaged Petland's release carbon that has been stored for centuries back into the atmosphere. They explained how the main component of petland restoration swagnum moss recovers at only the rate of 1 millimeter per year. In other words, it takes a millennium to reconstitute a meter of pete. The Scottish government clearly recognizes this because in 2020 it committed over 250 million pounds to petland restoration and that year the program restored 5,658 hectares of Pete. But strikingly roughly the same amount was destroyed in one single fire. The 2019 wildfire in Cath and Southerntherland which affected around 5,700 hectares of blanket bog in the flow country. The impact was so significant that the while this fire rage Scotland's carbon emissions doubled. The comparison just shows how quickly years of restoration work in one area can be undone in another. But we have to look at how our efforts complement each other. Um I was witnessed a far site when I was out with the UKC scientists where on the petland that they are restoring and monitoring pollution and air pollution and the petland bog you could see a pete hag that is being mined or harvested basically for compost for garden uh for garden use. This doesn't have a massive uh over the peace um implication in terms of the amount of uh of what we're doing to destroy our petlands but is a really bad optic and there's a question to say why have we not bought out the contracts have reclassified the land as has happened elsewhere in the UK so this practice doesn't happen and give a really strong signal to the public that can see this that this should not happen here we should also be really conscious around situs spruce planting and petlands as it releases more carbon in its sequesters and we must clearly join up our responses. But I'm disappointed today in today's debate on one issue that I've been alluding to. We have not talked about the real cause of this, which is climate change. And I was really very frustrated by the S&P Scottish government's response and the UK government's response uh over this very hot summer. Andy Barnum was literally asking people not to use a disposable barbecue. really the UK this year has had more heat waves than it has had an entire last century. This is not good enough. And it's with that I would really like us to spend time considering during this parliament. And before I do that, I'd like to offer some hope. I want to recognize the excellent work of groups such as the leadburn community woodland who are restoring uh the petland and fourth resource management who actually helping reduce our alliance from Pete in horticulture by recycling our garden waste. In addition to this proper woodland management as Finley Carson mentioned also has a significant role to play. I'd like to commend the woodland trust Scotland the borders forest trust and dump and galloway woodlands for educating me on this over recess and look forward to continue to do so. My point is these wildfires are quite literally a burning reminder that climate change is no longer a warning for the future. We have to see as a crisis we can have an impact on and we must lead with that. It is a wakeup call. It is happening right now. Thank you. >> Thank you. Um I now call on the cabinet secretary to respond to the debate. >> Presiding officer, I appreciate this opportunity to discuss our wildfire posture off the back of Mr. facts. There's motion in the head of my plan statement on Thursday. And let me begin by thanking every single person and organization that worked tirelessly in tackling and extinguishing the Kang Gorm's wildfire. I'm hugely appreciative of their work, commitment, and efforts in demanding, challenging, and changing circumstances. I commend and I'm incredibly grateful for the outstanding efforts of the more than 500 firefighters and staff of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, Police Scotland, other emergency responders, land owners, gamekeepers, volunteers, forest and land Scotland, the Karen Gomes National Park, Nature Scot, the RSPB. There is a plethora of intervention that has come across the board. I'd also like to give special mention to the volunteers who gave up their time to help fight the fire or support those that were. Let me also thank the people and communities in and around the Abernathy area who supported the response effort and those in the front line and the residents of Nei Bridge who supported each other during evacuation. I know this was not the only wildfire that has been dealt with this year, but it was the most serious. As everyone here is aware, there has been extreme weather across the world this year and wildfires were a feature across Britain and many European countries this summer with devastating impacts refreshingly acknowledged by Katie Clark and others. The damage that this fire caused was widespread with more than three and a half thousand hectare 3,300 hectares of Murland and forest about 10 square miles destroyed. The wildfire area is home to some of Scotland's most important biodiversity including native woodland such as ancient Scots pine trees and undoubtedly the wildfire the woodland and the flora and fauna it supports will have been affected by the fire a point that Emorod made so powerfully and so ecological assessments uh on habitats and species affected by the fire will of course be carried out. We know that the length of the fire also affected people in businesses. That is why the Scottish government made3 million pounds available to directly support businesses affected and support the longerterm economic recovery. This will be delivered through Highland Council which will also lead on the longerterm wider recovery with partners including the Scottish government and we all want to see this region of our country recover and flourish. Presiding officer, last year Scotland experienced its most severe wildfire season in recent memory. Unfortunately, we have again seen wildfires across Scotland with the one in the Kang Gorms we're discussing today highlighting this trend. Wildfires are no longer a seasonal hazard. They are a direct impact of climate change which is fueling an increase in both the frequency and severity of wildfires. Point that Donald McKinnon and uh Duncan Dop have just made. The changing climate that countries across the world are having to deal with will continue to increase the risk of significant wildfires with the devastating impact they have on our communities, local ecology, and on businesses and livelihoods. And that is why we are taking action to adapt to a changing climate and minimize the risk of wildfires through delivery of the Scottish National Adaptation Plan and the climate change plan. Presiding officer the Kieran Gorms fire was taken with the utmost seriousness by ministers and Scottish government officials from the outset. There was more than daily communication with Scotch Fire and Rescue Service throughout the incident and I fundamentally disagree with uh anyone's assertion that the response was anything otherwise. Indeed, on the basis of those updates from the Scotch Fire and Rescue Service, I was able to do what I could to provide updates to local constituency and regional MSPs throughout the fire. I give way to Katy Clark. >> Katie Clark, >> I'm very grateful to the cabinet secretary and I hear what he says in terms of the fact that he feels that there there was adequate resources to respond to what we had this summer, but he will be very aware of the concerns about the service delivery review and the the lack of resources of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. So, will the experiences of this summer be considered in looking at the proposals that are due to go effect? Cabinet Secretary to >> Katie Clark. It's not my view that the the um fire service was adequately resourced on the ground. It's the view of the Scottish fire and rescue service who said that they were adequately resourced. when I tested that point with the chief fire officer and incident commander on a near daily basis um and the the the service review is being carried out to ensure that the capability is in the right place to be able to respond to modern firefighting needs as our fire service. The Scottish fire and rescue service of course I will give way if I can once more shortly as our fire service. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service of course has the statutory responsibility, the legal responsibility to deal with fires wherever they occur and they continue to strengthen their own capabilities. SFRS provided reassurance that its response was resourced appropriately and proportionately with operational activity continually reviewed to ensure the response remained suitable for the scale and nature of the incident. There was however no doubt this was a difficult fire to contend with. We know that those facing the fire had to face the challenges of changing weather conditions, difficult and inaccessible terrain and incredibly difficult circumstances. And operational commanders also continually assess the hazards including fire behavior, fatigue, access and egress arrangements and the availability of suitable supervision and welfare provision. Those decisions and tactics and resource deployment and relief arrangements were therefore taken with the dual aim of achieving operational outcomes while keeping all those contributing to the response as safe as possible. I'll give away for a final time. >> Andrew Baxter, >> thank the cabinet secretary for uh taking an intervention. I want to go back to his comments about resourcing. Would he accept that despite what uh SFRS senior officers may have told him about adequate resourcing that the view from both whole time and retained firefighters involved with this response is very different and that they are telling both constituency MSPs and regional MSPs that they felt the resourcing was inadequate. In fact, one firefighter told me last night that they felt that the National Fire Service was 20 years behind what the former Highlands and Islands Fire Board were uh uh 20 years ago. >> Cabinet Secretary, >> presiding officer, I remind the chamber that incident commanders in the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service have a personal legal responsibility for responding to the fires that they're contending with. So I accept that there will be differences of opinion but they have a legal responsibility to the fire that they are fighting. Um and I think that deserves uh reminder. Of course uh individual fire officers and the fire the FBU as I've said very clearly in the meeting that I had with them can feed into the review can pass on information in terms of their concerns or where there is a need for us to go faster in terms of the wildfire strategy. But I um made clear uh in my asks of both incident commanders and the chief fire officer that if there was more resource required h we would do what we could to ensure that could be fulfilled and they said that they were in a position where they had adequate resources and proportionate resources in place. In March this year, the Scottish government published its strategic action plan on wildfires, which sets out 18 actions across the three pillars of uh prevention, preparedness, and response areas that were highlighted by Andrew Baxter and indeed by Laura Mitchell uh who also raised PPE. During the Karen Gorms wildfire, I requested an urgent review of the plan to ensure that we are moving forward with the pace and scale of action that is needed in light of the increasing risks that we face and to test that we remain in the right space in terms of required actions. The SFRS is developing contractual arrangements on wildfire danger assessments to make the system more resilient and stable, sustainable. We're also considering how we can better communicate those warnings to the public when they occur. I'm aware that throughout the Karen Gorms fire, partner knowledge, specialist capability, local expertise was crucial to help bring this fire to a conclusion. I know some in the local community felt that their voices were not listened to and that this reinforced the need for clear communication and importantly engagement with local residents, land owners and businesses in the course of significant incidents. SFRS and the Scottish Resilience Partnership are already considering these issues as part of their wider review and I can assure members that multi- agency reviews and debriefs will inform improvements to the wildfire concept of operations including how SFRS can work more effectively with partner organizations, land owners and volunteers. I recognize the significant efforts of communities in response to this wildfire and the valuable contribution of volunteers to this and other wildfires. And one of the strengths that SFRS has as a national service is that ability to flex its resources to working with local resilience partners to reflect the availability of local volunteers and assets. And through the wildfire strategy and wider service delivery review, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service continue to develop those skills, those equipment, the specialist advice and operational arrangements required to respond safely and effectively. And that includes strategically located wildfire resources, specialist equipment, tactical advisors, and enhanced support for crews operating in rural and island environments. The budget for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service has increased by 23.8 million, bringing the total budget to 435.96 million. In addition, the capital budget was increased to 48.4 million, an increase of 1.4 4 million to improve facilities for firefighters, invest in the SFRS asset base and across property, fleet operations, equipment and ICT. Quite the contrast from a suggestion of cuts. Presiding officer, to conclude, I will finish by endorsing the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service chief officer statement on Scotland's wildfire preparedness and that preventing, preparing and responding to the increased risk risk of wildfires needs to continue to be a joint endeavor. Emergency responders must work with the Scottish government, with local authorities, land managers, public bodies, businesses, communities, and the resilience partners to consider what more can be done. And that is what we will do. And I want to thank all uh colleagues who have taken part today who have spoken about the clear challenges that we face with wildfires. As I've already outlined, I've requested that review of our strate strategic action plan to identify any further actions needed and ensure the implementation meets the risk that climate change emergency increases. And I will say more about this on Thursday when I give a statement on wildfires and look forward to hearing more about that from members then. Thank you, presiding officer. >> That concludes our debate and I close this meeting of the parliament.