Members’ Business: Scottish Fire and Rescue Service’s Service Delivery Review - 08 September 2026

May I ask members to leave the chamber quietly please as we now move to our next item of business which the members business on Scottish fire and rescue services service delivery review and ask all members who wish to speak in the debate to press the request to speak buttons and I invite um debate on motion 707 in the name of Katie Clark and the debate will be concluded without any questions being put and I call on Katie Clark to open seven minutes please. >> Thank you very much presiding officer and I wish to thank all of the members who have supported this motion to give it cross party support. The support that this motion has received, I believe, illustrates the strength of feeling, not just amongst MSPs, but the communities that we represent about the future of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. We are joined today by some of Scotland's firefighters in the public gallery and I wish to pay tribute to them and to their colleagues for their tireless dedication to keeping us safe. In this year alone, there have been significant fires across Scotland, including at Union Street in Glasgow, Arthur's Seat, and Princess Street here in Edinburgh, and of course, at the Kern Gorms. In the face of these fires, our firefighters answered the call, putting their own lives at risk to protect the public. However, today's motion is necessary because of underfunding of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. For years now, firefighters and the fire brigade union have been warning the Scottish government about the impact of over a decades of cuts to the service. This year's resource budget has been cut by74 million pounds in real terms and that's happened every single year since 2013. >> Yes, of course. >> Patricia Gibson >> mention and of course um funding of frontline public services is always um something that we can all support. We can all get around that because as you say they put themselves in harm's way. I wonder if you have also if the the the member has also considered the impact on morale and recruitment of the fire service by the constant attacks on their pension services and the recent commutation factors which is are so bad that members of the police and fire services are seeking legal advice because they are so severely financially impacted agree with Patricia Gibson on the importance of the pension scheme. There have been a number of changes in recent years to the pension scheme which are positive and which the criminal justice committee have scrutinized and voted through. But she's absolutely right in terms of what she says and we need to be alert and vigilant in relation to issues not just in relation to the fire pension obviously but all of the emergency services. So I'm pleased that she's put that issue on record and perhaps we'll have the opportunity to consider it in more detail in another time. But since um 2013, over 1,200 firefighter jobs have been cut since the creation of the single service. And that's around a sixth of the total workforce. These job losses have disproportionately hit the front line with over a thousand operational firefighters lost. 10 fire appliances have been temporarily withdrawn. The capital backlog now stands at 800 million pounds for firefighters. The result of these cuts has been a less saving working environment. Crewing shortages have added to the workload of firefighters. Firefighters are working in breach of safe crewing and operational levels. They often do not have access to appropriate PPE and decontamination facilities. and they're working in fire stations which are often in a state of disrepair. For the public, the result of these cuts has been a greater risk to their safety. Average response times have risen by over 20% in a decade, even though every single second counts when it comes to dealing with a fire. The significant fires that have occurred in Scotland this year illustrate the real impact of over a decade of cuts. As the wildfire at Ken Gorms raged, the redeployment of firefighters from across Scotland affected fire cover in other communities. Our firefighters were left to combat the firefight wildfire without specialist PPE and decontamination facilities which potentially expose them to significant health harms. When the Union Street fire began in Glasgow, the response time was 6 minutes, well above the national average. Glasgow's only high reach appliance was unavailable. Given the se severe disruption that the Union Street fire caused, a properly funded or resourced service may have been able to respond quicker and lessen some of the disruption to the public businesses and public transport services. In the wake of these fires, the need for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to receive a sustained multi-year real terms increase in its funding could not be clearer. Yet the service instead faces the most significant cuts to the front line in decades because of the service delivery review. The service delivery review proposes significant cuts across the country at up to 30 fire stations. This includes firefighter job cuts and a reduction in fire cover. As a result, up to 10 fire appliances could be permanently withdrawn. Seven fire stations are marked for closure. For example, in the West Scotland region that I represent, communities like Green, Helensborough, and Mogai are set to be hit by the service delivery review cuts. 15 firefighter jobs and a permanent withdrawal of an appliance will hit Green. There will be changes to fire cover both at Helensborough and Mulgai. All these cuts have the potential to increase response times and risk public safety. They also could force our firefighters to work in even less safe conditions than they do now. The cuts proposed in the service delivery review were strongly opposed in the public consultation process last year. local communities, firefighters, the union, and politicians came together to say no to the cuts that would leave both firefighters and the public unsafe. However, despite this significant opposition, the Scottish fire and rescue service board approved most of the service delivery review proposals. When I raised this with the first minister at first minister's questions back in June, he said he was satisfied with the way that the board had conducted the service delivery review. I certainly am not satisfied and I suspect neither are most of the public or firefighters who made clear they oppose these cuts. These are the most significant cuts to the front line in decades. >> Yes, of course. >> Cabinet Secretary, the member is in her last minute. >> Presiding officer, thank and I thank Katie Clark for for giving away and for her doing so in her last minute. She has repeatedly referred to cuts. Does she recognize that there is not a penny of saving that comes uh to the overall Scottish fire and rescue service uh in terms of its overall budget nor a reduction in firefighter numbers as a result of the service delivery review >> and I think I've I've referred to some of that in the um in the speech that I've made. What I would say what I would say it's very clear that there's threats to jobs and threats to stations and threats to appliances. What I'm asking the Scottish government to do is to hold a debate and a vote in government time on the service delivery review and we can explore some of the issues that the cabinet secretary is raising there because if we are to have a Scottish fire and rescue service that is fit for the future challenges such as climate change then we have to have one that is properly funded and resourced and we cannot continue to see increases in response times. So I hope that the cabinet secretary today will outline how the go Scottish government will respond to the issues that I'm raising but I suspect will be raised by many other members in this debate. Thank you. >> Thank you. Uh we move to other member contributions uh uh of four minutes please. And I call Ben McFersonen to be followed by Jackie Bailey. [clears throat] Thank you deputy presiding officer and I would just speak first of all briefly on the wider issues that are brought by the member in this important debate of having established the first municipal fire service in the world. The importance of that service and the remarkable bravery and contribution of those in the service is as important today as it's ever been. Indeed, with the challenges of climate change coming at us, uh, which we have limited capacity to to change in the international context, the the preparation for that adaption is so important and of course our fire service are a key key part of that. I do note as well the welcome commitment in the program for government to expand the the role of the fire service. Uh something that the I know the union and the service have wanted to do for some time and it's great that those those proposals are progressing constructively. I wanted to to speak today uh actually about quite a specific local issue to my constituency. Now I know that there are members in the chamber today and others beyond who are are disappointed in the outcome of the service delivery review. But for my constituency of Edinburgh Northeastern and Leath there was some positive news in that Marianville fire station was not recommended for closure in the end. And I wanted to raise that point because as has been said, there were of course more fires unfortunately on Arthur Seat this summer. And in my time as a constituency MSP for the north and eastern side of the city in Leath, the the importance of Marianville Fire Station has saved lives and stopped damage on several occasions. And the response time that Marianville delivers to an extremely highly populated and growing part of our capital city, I think cannot be underestimated. And that is why whether it was community councils, local politicians including myself, members of the public, there was a really strong and a persuasive campaign to the board to save Marianville Fire Station. And response times matter. We know that they matter. And this city is growing more than anywhere else in the country. So while Marianville Fire Station has rack, that is a reality. While there is welcome investment in other stations in this capital city, including the the spades in the ground that happened very recently to build a new Libertton fire station and there's been a refurbished McDonald Road and there is additional capacity to potentially fill at New Craig Hall. In my view, the asset of Maranville Fire Station is so important for the constituents I represent and for our growing and thriving capital city. And so as we move forward to consider the proposals in the service delivery review and beyond, I would like to use this opportunity to constructively ask the minister in due course if I can meet about Marianville Fire Station to discuss the fact that while there is rack that needs to be dealt with, this asset in the public sector in this key part of our capital city needs to be maintained. and a fire station preserved so that unfortunately if there is a fire again on Arthur Sea or if one of the tower blocks or indeed other residential or commercial properties at the dock goes on fire that Mariamville firefighters can continue to do what they've done so well for so long which is to be there for public safety and to save lives. [applause] >> Thank you. I call Jackie Bailey to be followed by David Smith. >> Officer and let me begin by thanking Casey Clark for bringing this debate to parliament particularly whilst the issue of fires is fresh in our minds because you only need to walk a 100 yards to Arthur's seat to see that wildfires are a reality for many. So dismay is absolutely the right word to describe the reaction to the decision taken by the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service Board. Between 2014 and 2020, there were 101 wildfires greater than 30 hectares. That's an average of 14 per year in the years up to 2020. But in 2025, there were 241 wildfires over 30 hectares in size. And so far this year they've been 72. And while the total number for this year may be down, the severity is much much worse. The Ken Gorms wildfire raged for weeks in July and August 2026 and required the evacuation of Nethi Bridge, exposing a service hollowed out by a decade of underfunding. Just prior to the wildfire, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service Board ratified a package of service reductions, let's call them cuts, including fire station closures, reduced overnight and weekend coverage. The scale of the Ken Gomes disaster reinforces arguments that reducing appliances and coverage of areas leaves the country vulnerable during major climate emergencies. Now, undoubtedly, we need to be funding efforts to combat wildfires. That's a reality of the world we live in, but that's not an excuse to steal from Peter to pay Paul. Already in my own constituency, the Scottish government confirmed in a PQ a cut of £626,000 to Helensburgh Fire Station, resulting in a move from 247 cover for a population of 15,000 people to a day shift for weekdays and on call service at evenings and weekends. For most of the week, local firefighters need to rush from their homes or workplaces, then to their station, only then to incidents when emergency calls come in. Average response times have risen from 6 minutes 50 seconds to 8 minutes 20 seconds, a 20% increase in a decade. And these recent changes will make matters worse. We are moving in the wrong direction. against the wishes of firefighters, against the wishes of those who responded in the consultation. But the SNP pressed on anyway, but surprise surprise, not until after the election. Overstretch resources have already caused average response times across Scotland to increase. Adding new statutory tasks like flooding and water rescue, fire safety training, and data gathering onto fewer crews means that they are less available to respond to traditional life-saving fire and rescue emergencies. Because core funding is squeezed, the SFRS has had to cut frontline fire engines, reduce high reach capabilities, and approve a series of fire station closures and service downgrades. Happy to give way. Cabinet Secretary, >> there are a number of points that need to be addressed in Jackie Bailey's comments there. The first is that actually the service to delivery review, as I pointed out to Katie Clark, has not delivered a penny of saving nor indeed a reduction in service. Indeed, actually, it will increase uh the capacity with an additional appliance across the country. Does she also recognize that in Helensboro the average call out was one per day and so having the service as it is configured as has been set out not by the SMP but by the Scottish fire and rescue service is appropriate to meet the demands that have been placed upon the Helms service. Jackie Bailey, a >> bit like a speech rather than an intervention. But let me just say to the cabinet secretary, no growth in numbers, more demands, flat cash. That's a cut. That's a cut in anybody's book. And simply having, you know, a call out that's described as once per day makes no attempt to assess the risk that is clearly there. So let me finish presiding officer by talking about the overstretched resources because core funding is being squeezed. The government has tried to argue that it's not a cut. Is money being reinvested into new climate change related problems, wildfires, floods. Now very few would argue against that need for investment. But for the people of Helens and 10 more towns and cities like it, this is a cut. a cut that will be dangerous for families and leave homes and businesses vulnerable. The government should be ready to get in behind firefighters to help them do their job and adapt to the changing landscape of increased threats through increased investment, not at the expense of others. The cuts are shortsighted. They're driven by a desire to save money when the priority should be safety of residents. So, let me ask the cabinet secretary, break the habit of a lifetime, trust frontline firefighters, trust local people in ensuring that local services like Kelins are adequately resourced and they need to scale up support to tackle wildfires and floods as we battle with the impact of climate change. The government must reverse their cuts. >> Call David Smith to be followed by Maggie Chapman. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Katie Clark, for bringing this debate to the parliament. The motion brought forward by Katie uses the word dismay. Um, I agree with the sentiment of the term, but on this occasion, I don't think it's the right term. Dismay applies implies that we should be shocked and I don't think we should be shocked at the hard decisions that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service have had to take. I think we should all be alarmed. The decisions that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service have had to take were inevitable due to consecutive real terms funding cuts over a period of 14 years by the Scottish government. The cuts to the fire and rescue service has already been raised in this parliament during this session. In response, the government has slipply shoved their shoulders and said that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service are responsible for operational decisions and henceforth turning the blame back onto the service. This parliament cannot and should not blame the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. These are not operational operational decisions. They're purely financial decisions driven by financial cuts. The blame for this must lie with the Scottish government. >> Cabinet Secretary, >> presiding officer, I have to challenge that gross inaccuracy. The service delivery review is by its nature an operational matter. It is led by the Scotchbr and Rescue Service and it is based on the operational demands not on making savings. >> David, >> absolute nonsense. >> The I I disagree. The record will show that the when this was raised previously, the minister said that these were operational decisions taken by the Scottish fire and rescue service. To me, that is pushing the blame onto somebody else and it's just not right. So, I'll go on. I'll press on. I attended a public meeting at Victoria Halls on the 20th of August last year. Jackie Bailey was there, too. I'd like to take a moment to thank the member for her hard work supporting the campaign to retain Helensboro Fire Station as a 247 service. The presentation from the Fire and Rescue Service uh on the 20th of August laid bare the financial difficulties of the service. It was impressed on everyone in the room just how much the range of services being delivered by the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service has expanded with little or no additional funding. It was also impressed on us just how difficult it was to provide a full range of coverage across the West Scotland region, especially when there are multiple emergencies. The motion is right to highlight the real-time cuts that have been occurring since 2012. In 2022, the Scottish government introduced the expanded fire alarm standard, which is welcomed. We should also take into account other mitigations like less people smoking indoors and a lot less people using deep fat fryers. These are mitigations that reduce the likelihood of household fires. However, on the flip side, we also have new uh new increases to the risk. We've got hybrid and electrical electric vehicles using our roads which cause new challenges to the fire and rescue service. Uh we've also seen to be inundated with cheap electrical items such as mobile phone chargers and battery packs purchased online which are increasingly becoming responsible for started fires. We should also take note that across Scotland we are experiencing a housing emergency with many of our homes becoming overcrowded meaning the amount of risk activity within each property is also increasing. Coupled with this, we'd also see an increased congestion in built-up areas and the seemingly neverending series of road works which are creating significant problems for the fire and rescue service to get to incidents. When the union rep from the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service addressed the meeting in Helens in August of last year, his message simply wasn't a series of statements of fact. It was an emotional appeal for help. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service have a long and proud tradition. Our firefighters are one of the most trusted public service workers in our society. But they will only ever be able to do the tasks that they are funded to do. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service will always do their very best for everyone within our society, and I believe it is essential that everyone in this parliament does their very best for them in return. Thank you. I call Maggie Chapman who's joining us online to be followed by Megan Gallagher. >> Thank you, presiding officer, and I'm grateful to Katie Clark for securing this important debate. I want to begin by putting on record again my solidarity with the firefighters and control staff in our SFRS. I thank them for everything they do to keep all of our communities safe. Nearly three years ago, I was proud to host the launch of the FBU's Firestorm Report. What that report exposed was not a service with too many resources, but a service being asked to do more and more with less and less. Since 2013, more than,50 firefighter jobs have been lost. Response times have increased. Appliances have been taken off the run. Training and equipment have come under pressure. and firefighters themselves have been telling us that cuts are affecting operational safety. In the firestorm survey, more than 85% said that reductions in resources or crewing had adversely affected operational performance. And now we're being asked to accept another round of reductions as somehow inevitable. At Balmosi in my region, the SFRS board has decided to downgrade the station, remove the whole time appliance from Bal Mossi and retain just one on call appliance while reinstating the second whole time appliance at Kingsway East in Dundee. SFRS describes this as matching resources to risk and demand, but its own assessment admits that the change will mean increased first appliance response times within the local area. This matters because when somebody is trapped in a burning building, an extra minute is not an accounting abstraction. It can be the difference between rescue and tragedy. And we know that because of severe staffing gaps and recruitment challenges, safe staffing levels cannot always be guaranteed. Three firefighters cannot perform safely the full range of tasks required at a serious incident. They cannot simply compensate for the missing fourth or fifth firefighter by working harder. A threeperson crew means one driver, one officer overseeing operations and one firefighter. The FBU is crystal clear on this. This is hazardous for firefighters and dangerous for the public because crews trained to operate as larger teams cannot safely undertake life-saving interventions without sufficient numbers. The firestorm report makes the broader point clear. The FBU has called for the agreed safe crewing model to be enforced. So I ask the cabinet secretary and the SFRS board to commit clearly and always to a safe crewing model. And I ask this parliament to be given an assurance that no firefighter will be sent into a dangerous incident with an unsafe number of colleagues simply because the service cannot afford to crew the appliance properly. We also need to remember that fire and rescue is an all hazards service. We know the climate emergency means more extreme weather, flooding, and wildfires. The firestorm report again warned that SFRS was already inadequately equipped to respond to the climate emergency and called for investment in wildfire equipment, PPE, and training. We've seen some of the evidence of that need just recently. We cannot respond to these growing risks by shrinking the service. The answer is not to ask firefighters to carry more risk. It is to invest in them. That means proper staffing, safe crewing, decent stations with decontamination facilities, modern equipment, regular training, sufficient appliances available when people call 999. The FBU's demands are straightforward. No further cuts to firefighter numbers, no reduction in fire cover, no no reduction in crewing levels, safety at for crews, investment in stations, sustained real terms investment from the Scottish government. That's not extravagant. These aren't outrageous demands. They are the minimum we should expect from a government that takes public safety seriously. This is why this debate matters. So the Scottish government must listen to firefighters, to communities, and reverse this race to the bottom because public safety should never be balanced against a spreadsheet. Cuts to fire fire cover are not efficiencies. They are risks being transferred onto firefighters and onto our communities. We cannot accept that. Thank you. Due to the number of members who wish to speak in this debate, I'm minded to accept a motion without notice under rule 8.14.3 to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes. And I now in invite Haiti Clark to move a motion without notice. >> I move the motion. >> Thank you. The question is that the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes. Are we all agreed? >> Yes. >> Thank you. Uh can I now call me Megan Gallaer to be followed by EP Chow Turvy. >> Thank you presiding officer and can I also acknowledge the work that Katy Clark has undertaken in this area because as many members across the chamber have already outlined. I am also deeply concerned by the decision taken by the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to proceed with the service changes despite significant opposition from members of the public and concerns raised by the communities that we represent. Cumberald Fire Station is crewed by two wholetime appliances, both of which are staffed 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The conclusion of the review means that the second appliance at Cumberald Fire Station would instead operate on an on call basis during evenings and weekends with crews available remotely via a pager service. The the proposed changes could lengthen the response times of both the second sorry the first and second appliances in an emergency. I think we can all agree that every second matters. Any increase in response times could limit the ability of firefighters to reach incidents quickly, tackle fires effectively, and carry out rescues in an incident. I believe these changes have the potential to have a very real impact on safety, not to mention the firefighters themselves who are understandably concerned about their future as emergency responders. There is currently a petition regarding the proposed changes at Cumberald Fire Station which has already gathered 3,739 signatures. This demonstrates the strength of feeling within the community. But of course, Cumberald Fire Station does not solely service Cumberald. The station also provides cover for Mudisbar, Chryen, Murehead, Steps, and Kill South. All of which would have to be covered by just one appliance under these proposed changes. And the impact doesn't stop there. The justice secretaries area would also be impacted. Just last week, there was an appliance from Cumberald that responded to a fire at a local business in Erdri alongside an appliance from Court Bridge. If these proposals go ahead and given the uncertainty around the availability of on call crews combined with the possibility of other incidents taking place at the same time, it is entirely foreseeable that appliances which could otherwise be deployed to incidents in Erdri or elsewhere may simply not be available. And when that happens, response times would increase. that could lead to worse outcomes and in the most serious circumstances, devastating consequences. I don't think any one of us want to be in that position where we're actually having to come back with a question to the Scottish government about something that has happened because we've already raised it in the chamber. We keep hearing from the Scottish government that these are simply operational decisions for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. But surely we've now reached the point where Scottish ministers must intervene. When decisions about the availability of emergency responders have the potential to impact public safely safety, the Scottish government cannot sh responsibility. The fire brigades union have been clear in its concerns. Cuts to the fire service mean a loss of emergency responders and a loss of equipment. And when the chief fire officer tells us that there's been a real terms reduction of around 18% in the resource budget since 2013, we must ask whether these decisions can genuinely be viewed as purely operational matters. We understand the issues that have been raised so far. I think Ben McFersonen was right to raise the issues surrounding rack. That's something that we all understand and we want to see dealt with. But I do believe there is a need for the Scottish government to accept responsibility because at the end of the day, the question that I think we need to ask ourselves as a parliament is a very simp a simple one. Are we genuinely confident that these changes will maintain the level of fire and rescue service cover that our communities deserve? And if the answer is no, then the Scottish government must use this opportunity and act now. Thank you. >> Thank you. I call e pay chury to be followed by more. >> Yeah, thank you presidenting officers. Like my colleague before me, I would like thank the services for all they do for the life of our residents. But as a Scottish liberal democrats also we have been constitent in the call for properly funded frontline services. The residents in the northeast of Scotland have concerned by the future of our local fire stations. between the closure of the dome and native bridge on the doorstep right before this summer's wildfire and the fact that this Balmos fire station is downgrading while two new fire station will be built in East Lutin and Glasgow make them wonder this decision uh made in a way that's affecting the northeast again and the priority are always bit central build focused So and those dec decision also affect once again the residents the businesses and our natural environment and the climate crisis will keep on adding pressure and risk to the fire rescue services. The wild fire risk to reduce dry summers or autumn and winter flooding. the lack of funding to our local government to help with the snow clearing, the improvement of our vast roads and bridge network which sadly increased the road traffic collisions, extend the travel time for emergency response and the accessibility for our fire rescue to help our residents in the northeast of Scotland. Also 1,250 job loss in Katy's motion today. What are we doing in real life to help with recruitment? We do have really keen young people, girls and lads who have the calling to serve. But for those to live in the northeast of Scotland going all the way to Glasgow to start them on their training journey is impacting the time and also the possibility to achieve their dream. Our local fire station are also trying their best to recruit on cold firefighters to help with the loss of those jobs. But in a large region, in a rural region, the factor of disponyability of those people is highly impacted by your work or home location and the distance to the fire station. That's why we really need to work alongside our fire and rescue services to create as they propose for a strong partnership and working with our community to increase the use of targeted prevention and data to help with the recruitment of permanent and encore firefighters and also to support our local governments and communities resilience to prepare for the future. Thank you. I call Carol Moan to be followed by Rachel Hamilton. >> Thank you, presiding officer. Can I thank my colleague Kita Clark for securing this debate and welcome all the contributions from other members. I was unable to get into the debate last week on wildfires, but wanted members to know I found many of the points raised extremely important. We must continue to take climate change seriously and understand the role of the fire and rescue service in managing the dangers to our communities, but also their valuable role in understanding climate change itself. The Scottish fire and rescue service are a cornerstone of every community across the country. The public respect their efforts and want to see their role supported and sustained. Yet, it seems like every year is met with more cuts coming down the pipeline for the fire service. Since the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service was formed in 2013, we've heard from other members, there's been 900 million of cuts and the loss of more than 1,200 fight frontline firefighters. I think the public probably are not fully aware of this and in fact they would be appalled to know the true scale of the damage that has been done to our fight firefighting capabilities in their community. The service delivery review clearly shows that many stations and facilities require serious upgrading and more money is needed to go for to go towards assets to fight fires. We know that and for fire equipment for firefighters. And the motion lays this out quite clearly. We need sustained investment to ensure the service can fully operate and importantly, as others have said, keep the public safe. The fire service is a unionized workforce who stand up for themselves and this is incredibly important. The fire brigades union are relentless in their support to firefighters, but also to communities and businesses across Scotland. and the government would do well to include them in decision making and planning because this would ensure a service which meets the modernday demands of our communities. Like the fire brigade union, I welcome the government's manifesto commitment to progress role expansion for Scotland's firefighters with additional funding. But this must be delivered swiftly and with the full participation of the FBU. But we also must demand increased funding to the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to reverse over a decade of realterm cuts to ensure the service is fully resourced, equipped, and firefighters are trained. Others have mentioned um the poor sort of um er response the government has given to upgrading of equipment, poor infrastructures and the facilities that firefighters have. We know that they at times um from the their work are put in danger and they don't always have the facilities to make sure they re retain their health and this cannot go on. As I close, I urge the cabinet secretary to support the fire brigades union's calls for a national conversation on Scotland's wildfire preparedness. Um if I'd spoken last week, I wanted to ask the cabinet secretary what attempts he had made to work cross portfolio. This issue is about community prep preparation, water availability, land management um and as we know in an uncertain future for climate um and the related emergencies that could come for that we must work across portfolios and that is the only way to increase our understanding and our delivery and the fires brigade union have been clear that they are happy to work with the government on this. It is really important that the cabinet secretary takes these issues seriously and I do hope that he will work with the men and women of the service to make sure that we can continue to save lives as they have done for so long. Thank you. >> Thank you. Um I call Rachel Hamilton to be followed by Victor Curry. Uh thank you presiding officer and thank you to Katie Clark for bringing forward this very important debate and for the firefighters that are joining us in the uh gallery this evening. What I would like to say is that I was surprised by the outcome of the service delivery when it was published and the worst fears of my constituents in Ho were confirmed. They had put together a huge opposition, a huge petition against this decision for many reasons of which I will explain as I make progress. But their concerns were clear right from the start and I joined them. Uh we were as one during this whole process and we supported the firefighters. There's been many crossparty events uh inside this place and outside this place. And what I would like to say to a point that Katie Clark made is that it seems that the opposition was the outcome was almost disproportionate to the outcome and it the people who fought against these decisions felt powerless. I watched the decision being made when the um SFRS were online um discussing every single fire station and I I honestly thought that they would not make this decision about Hoy for for many reasons and I will explain this to the cabinet secretary. The first one is that we are the first uh area in Scotland to have a center parks and this is a huge investment. It's just outside Ho. The uh cover now is going to be downgraded at the station from a full-time 24-hour cover to daytime only provision provision just like uh many of my colleagues have described uh today. And all of these people going to center parks will be arriving and leaving in cars because there is no station in Ho that went with the beaching cuts in the 60s. So they are arriving along the A7 down the A68 across from Dunfrey and Galloway and none of these roads are particularly great roads and the firefighters also respond to road traffic accidents. We also have huge concerns about battery storage and recently planning applications for battery storage have been approved and this again is a new thing to meet the government's net zero commitments and local people are very concerned uh about this and it seems to be following a pattern. It's hollowing out public services particularly in rural areas like the borders. I'll give way to Ben McFersonen. Ben McFersonen, >> Rachel Hamilton forgiving waste, similar to the remarks that I made around Maranville station in my constituency. Does she agree with me that we have to collectively give really careful consideration not just to what the needs may be in a decade's time but actually beyond that and that we need to preserve public assets to the greatest extent and consider future demand? Rachel Hamilton McFersonen makes a really important point because the Scottish government strategy, energy strategy isn't going to be published in full until 2027. So, we're getting all of these renewables in place and developments. Everyone's crying out for economic growth, infrastructure, um, investment, and we do need to retain the public services even if they need to be improved, uh, uh, because of issues with rack. But I mean I feel I I'm listening to you Ben McFersonen. I think the the decision to over you know overturn the closure or the changes at Maranville it was was great um for for your constituency but many of us have been left in really detrimental situations. I was grateful to David Faris who is the assistant chief officer for meeting me and counselors and my colleague John Lament at the Ho Fire Station but all we could agree is that there would be a review because there wasn't a review about how the outcomes of this would actually work in practice. So we agreed that uh that that um that needs to be looked at and that the service is not detrimentally affected by these changes. So all I would say is to uh to echo a lot of what's been said today is that I read the fire brigades union brief and the the government cannot hide from the fact that 1,200 firefighters jobs have been lost since 201213. response times are up 20% and 74 million real terms cut reduction in SFRF uh SFRS funding has been um enacted in this financial year alone and it's these cuts that are the most significant of all frontline service cuts in an entire time of these reductions. Thank you very much once again. I just hope that the person who is responsible for making these decisions does not have to um be responsible for any fatalities that happen on the back of this. Deputy Presiding Officer, thank you. And I thank Katie Clark for bringing this debate to the chamber, especially given recent events which have been mentioned, which have so badly affected families and businesses, not only in my own region, but across the whole of Scotland. And I pay tribute to the personnel of the Scottish Fire Rescue Service who risk their lives and dedicate their expertise to our nation's emergency response capacity. In particular, to the firefighter who tragically lost his life fighting the fire at the Jenner's um fire in Edinburgh in 2023. Deputy presiding officers, as I rise to make my submission to this debate, I'm reminded of when I was a young officer in the Royal Navy visiting a Vanguard class submarine, a vessel which makes an irreplaceable contribution to our strategic nuclear deterrent. During this visit, one of my fellow guests asks, "We spend millions, billions of pounds on the construction and maintenance of these weapons, but they're thankfully never used. Couldn't this money be better spent elsewhere? What are they supposed to do other than sitting there doing nothing?" And the captain's reply was that what they're supposed to do is exactly what they're doing right now, doing nothing. Now, I know that an increased number of fire stations or equipment will not of themselves deter or prevent a fire from starting and spreading. But it is a question of capacity to deal with the ultimate emergency should it ever happen. As we've heard, it's indisputable that over a 10-year period from 2012, personnel numbers decreased 15%. But have we seen a corresponding dis decrease in the risk of fire emergencies? Though globally wildfires have decreased to record lows sitting around 50% of the levels seen in the year 2000. Regionally in our area of operations, we have seen a steady increase in the instances of wildfires. But in the face of this in the highlands, we have seen station closure from formalized at Netty Bridge, Ratigan, Isle of Muk, and Fetlar and Shhatland. Now, I don't assume to presuppose the government's position on this, but I predict that mitigation will be furnished in the form of increased efficiencies, wider safety awareness initiatives, and the centralization of services. However, in remote and rural areas, 100 miles is still 100 miles, and this cannot be overcome by efficiencies, especially in the face of ongoing transport problems and trunk road upgrades. Nor a team does reach an area can a fire engine be in two places at once if there is another incident. There are wider risks touched on um by Ben McFersonen and Rachel Hamilton about battery storage sites, proposed AI hypers scale data centers, and the fact that the review did not seem to take into account ongoing and future in increases in regional infrastructure such as major leisure resorts and regional residential developments which will increase local demand. Deputy Presiding Officer, what I offer the chamber is a very short synopsis of an increased burden and risk of potential fires. And under this government, we are seeing not only a staffing and infrastructure level that does not increase correspondingly, but sees a centralization of capacity away from remote areas, compounding over a decade of previous cuts. The safety of the Scottish people should never be at the mercy of budgeting pressures and I urge a rethink and a new plan that ensures that communities across not only the Highlands and Islands but the whole of Scotland are safe, have a well- resourced, well staffed fire and rescue service fit for the 21st century. Thank you. >> Call Tik to be followed by Paul Swinny. Um well thank you very much presiding officer and can I thank the member Katy Clark for bringing what I think is actually a really excellent members business and it follows on the back of Andrew Baxter's members business last week well the wildfires and you know presiding officer I don't get the opportunity to make decisions in this parliament but from the opposition what we can do all of us is represent our constituents as best we can and for something like wildfires I feel I need to come in on every single debate I possibly can because last week I was trying to be slightly consensual. Uh, Jeremy, go ahead. >> Ben McFersonen. >> Um, may may I just make one correction having having rejoined the backbenches from from government fairly recently, I would I would urge to eagle to to take responsibility as I as I know he does and probably meant to, that actually we make decisions as a parliament and yes, the executive have much decision- making power, but it's actually us collectively as a legislature that make the decisions. >> Tim Eel. >> Well, well, do you know what? I'd love a debate in this parliament on that because I'm not sure I agree. Actually, I don't think we do have the ability. We might be able to try and get through, but having sat here for two years trying to get reasonable amendments through, I don't think we do make decisions as a parliament. I think the S&P make decisions and they just impose it on the rest of us, frankly. But we'll move on. So, but I but I agree with your point. We should try and be consensual we can. And last week, I was trying to be consensual in Andrew Baxter's debates. I genuinely wanted to impress upon the government that actually I think there was a problem. We didn't learn enough from the wildfires last year and that we led to major blaze in Kang Gongs this year. We cannot we simply cannot allow that to happen next year. Now this is about the fire service in uh in full and I want to get to a couple of local points on that. But actually what lots of people have raised today is about risk and the fire service have amended their plan according to risk. But I'm worried and I and I agree with Vic Curry that actually there is worries that they haven't they've taken account of historical data but they've not thought about the future. They've not really thought about the emerging risk of wildfires. They've not thought about energy infrastructure moving forward and they've not thought about growing communities. You need the ability to cover very large areas as quickly as possible with potentially multiple fires. And I'm not satisfied in this service review that they are going to be able to do that. There are two specific points though that I want to raise on behalf of my uh community. One of those is about Avimmore Fire Station. Uh Avymore I would think we could all agree is right in the heart of the Kangorms National Park, an incredibly busy location during the tourist season and we've just had the largest wildfire in the UK ever in the area. Yet Avymore Fire Station is a tier 2 fire station for wildfires which is out of t four tiers if anybody knows. Tier one being basically nothing to tier four having wildfire tactical advisers. I would have thought that in the heart of the Kangorms National Park, your major fire station should be at least a tier three, which by this would have a Ford Ranger with Polaris ATV with a fogging lance unit on a trailer. Not sure I know what all that means, but good equipment in place. But no, no, the fire service have that as a tier two. And I tried to ask in the community, well, why is that? That's a bit odd. Apparently, it's because they don't have the storage in order to put that equipment in. I think this the cabinet secretary needs to step in there. This is a dangerous area. It should be at least a tier three, if not a tier four. And the second thing that members of the fire service uh came to me about was there was a fire in Fern uh in June this year. And uh close to that is Balento Fire Station. And there is a community response unit and they have a vehicle there and they have uh volunteers there ready to go. But the fire service wouldn't let them. And when a shed caught fire and it caused a huge blaze, they were stood down. They were told that they could not take action despite the fact the community and a significant local employer were pleading them to take action. And it took much longer for their fire service to come in. And they contact me saying, "Isn't this crazy? We are fully trained. We've got a vehicle ready to go, but yet we cannot get involved in this fire. The and they faced criticism after that incident from the local community. Firefighters should not be put in that position. And I asked the cabinet secretary to look into incidents like that to make sure that if there is a trained crew, and they were a trained crew with the appropriate equipment in place, and they willing to tackle these fires that they should be allowed to do that. Thank you, presiding officer. I I call the last open debate contribution from Paul Swedie. >> Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to thank my friend Miss Clark, member for West Scotland for tableabling this motion for members business, which was happy to sign. Also welcome firefighters from across the country to the gallery. Deputy Striding Officer, the recent decisions by the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service Board represent some of the most profound frontline cuts to my city of Glasgow that we've seen in decades under the guise of a service delivery review. Glasgow is being subjected to a managed decline of its essential emergency infrastructure. The closure of York Hillfire Station in the West End removes a strategically vital asset, a station covering complex residential profiles, major universities and the Scottish events campus as well as river safety along the north bank of the river Clay. Indeed, the station was originally known as West um Marine Fire Station when it was opened in 1971. On the south bank of the river in Govern, a community with a proud industrial heritage where I worked at the shipyard. The permanent removal of the second appliance strips away vital resilience in an area with the country's largest hospital and heavy industry. And while in Springburn, a community already suffering from systemic underinvestment. Losing a dedicated full-time appliance is another blow that is very worrying to public safety. The fire brigades union has been crystal clear on this matter. Removing these appliances from three stations across the city of Glasgow will increase response times, reduce citywide resilience, and leave Glaswegians less safe. And all this is happening in the wake of one of the most disastrous fires in the history of the city at Union Street earlier this year. We are repeatedly told by the minister and the service board that there is no capital budget available to maintain or modernize these facilities. Yet, they are sitting on prime urban real estate across Glasgow. And as we've actually seen with the proposed redevelopment of cow cadens, the concept should be expanded to other sites in urban locations. Member for Edinburgh Northern Leaf made a important example in Edinburgh about what you could do with the real estate there. So instead of retreating and abandoning these municipal buildings, we should be showing real financial imagination by adopting a mixeduse model. By utilizing air rights and building highdensity residential flats directly above modernized appliance bays, we can actually capture local land value to cross subsidize our emergency services. This collocation approach is already welldeveloped in major North American cities and it would allow us to rebuild standalone 1980s facilities like at Springburn alongside the adjacent ambulance station and retain vital urban sites like York Hill without draining the capital budget. And this would turn our fire stations into dualpurpose assets to actively tackle the housing emergency as well. Where there's a major shortage of sites, we should also be looking at broadening our horizon more generally with what we can use a modern fire station for in the interests of wider public safety and health. Um, across the United States, for example, in places like Providence, where I visited over the summer, uh, fire stations have pioneered the safe stations model, uh, transforming these 24-hour civic buildings into immediate non-judgmental access points for individuals seeking recovery from addiction. And in a city like Glasgow currently fighting a devastating drug death crisis, our fire stations could also be repurposed as holistic community safety hubs, offering low barrier harm reduction and addiction pathway support alongside operational firefighting rather than just being boarded up or scaled back. We could also be looking at utilization of new technologies like drones which would dramatically improve incident command and situational awareness and how we could also use that to improve water safety and river safety on sites near major rivers like the river Clyde. So presiding officer, we cannot accept an estate strategy that hollows out our city. Nor can we allow a lack of imagination to simply mean further dismantling of frontline resilience. I urge the minister, the cabinet secretary to intervene and halt these damaging cuts and ask and direct the fire service to explore innovative new ways of developing the estates with new funding using air rights and expanding community health roles across the fire brigade estate. I now call cabinet secretary Neil Gray to respond to the debate. Seven minutes, please. Cabinet. >> Presiding officer. I thank Katie Clark uh for leading this debate and and begin at the outset by profoundly agreeing with her regarding our thanks to firefighters and SFRS uh staff. And in that vein, I want to begin by putting on record my thanks uh to all of those that work in the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service for all that they do to protect our communities. as a a frontline service. Their work is hugely appreciated and as we have seen from the summer wildfires, we all know how important their work is and I'm immensely grateful to them for that. The service delivery review was a safety focused modernization program designed to ensure Scotland has a fire and rescue service adaptable and fit for the future. I think that is something that we should all agree with based on the evidence. And as we have seen this summer, the types of fire risk that we face as a nation continue to change. For our illustration, dwelling fires have reduced by over 20% since 2013. And between 200910 and 202425, there was a 33% reduction in non-fatal fire casualties and a 32% reduction in fatal fire casualties. While these are meaningful reductions which reflect the incredibly focused efforts of our fire service and the extremely important prevention work that they do in our communities, our changing climate means that both the risk of wildfires and flooding are growing and it's essential that SFRS adapt to face these changes and challenges. Presiding officer, the recommen I will do if I get a chance in due course. Presiding officer, the recommendations informed by the review will deliver the changes needed to protect communities and ensure that the Scotch Fire and Rescue Service adapts to the changing demands and risks. The review concluded that some stations and appliances are not in the right places to meet the current and future risk and demands current and future. Towns, cities, rural areas and also community demand has changed in many places. So it is right that the service supports those communities and that community needs are aligned with demand. Changing the crewing model will match resources to local risk and demand. And whilst some of the options do naturally achieve savings, others will lead to new investment. Contrary to what Katy Clark set out, any savings being reinvested by Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to ensure resources are in the right areas. There will be no reduction in the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service budget nor in firefighters as a result of the service delivery review. Overall, delivering this review will lead to an additional fire appliance for Scotland and it will liberate 69 posts that can be redistributed to support emerging priorities including firefighter and community safety and other preventive measures needed to continue to support the downward trend in dwelling fires and also increase the climate related emergency. I give way to Katie Clark >> cabinet secretary and his contention seems to be that there are not going to be cuts. We've heard many examples of cuts across the chamber today. To use an example from my region at Green, 15 firefighter roles are going to be lost and there will be a permanent removal of a whole time second appliance which has been temporarily withdrawn for a period of time. That's expected to save £426,000 and according to the fire service will lead to a moderate increase in response times. Surely these examples that he he has been given are cuts to jobs, appliances and the service. >> Cabinet Secretary. >> No, presiding officer, I I reiterate there will be no reduction in the SFRS budget nor in firefighters as a result of the service delivery review. Indeed, overall the review will lead to an additional fire appliance being created and will ensure that the 69 post that I've talked about being uh moved, it can be redistributed to support emerging priorities including firefighter and community safety. So I I recognize I recognize I recognize for individual areas uh there are uh challenges being faced but overall this is about ensuring that we have investment in the right areas based on the challenges that are being faced. Now I gave the example of Helensborough um where um uh under uh the service delivery review it still has two appliances. It also has the lowest operational demands of all stations of this type in Scotland. It has an average call out of one a day. It still has two appliances available. I give way to Jackie Bailey on that point. >> Jackie Bailey. So the revised model relies on retained firefighters. You already have difficulties recruiting to the existing retained firefighters post across Helens and Lment. Where are you going to magic them up from? Cabinet Secretary >> presiding presiding officer that this model is one that's already in existence and other fire stations already in the country. I point to Livingston I believe is is one example. We have to have resources in place that are meeting with the demand and need of those local areas and those needs are changing. We have to accept that which is why um the operational response has been taken forward by the Scottish fire and rescue service. I think I I've given away twice. I'll need to make progress in order to meet within time. Presiding officer, the current SFRS estate has 356 fire stations. As part of the public consultation, the SFRS took on feedback and that included not recommending the closure of Loelli and Fif and Marianville and Edinburgh as Ben McFersonen set out highlighting the rigor with which the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service undertook its work. And I'm of course always happy to meet with Ben McFersonen though I I note some of the points that he has raised may be more appropriate for Scottish fire and rescue service to address operationally but perhaps we could meet uh jointly. Scottish fire and rescue service has also assessed that the increase in population in East Loen would be better served by a new purpose-built station in Trinent with the wholetime crew currently at Muselbrra being stationed there. And Paul Sweeney referenced the plan for Glasgow. The population of Glasgow will be better protected by a new purpose-built fire station adjacent to the current Kokaran site. These are two new fire stations backed by capital investment of over2 million pounds. I'm very aware of how important increase in sustained funding to this Scotch Fire and Rescue Service is to allow firefighters to do their job and keep the public safe. And for 27 2627 budget, the Scotch Fire and Rescue Service was provided with a 23.8 8 million pound uplift bringing their total budget to 435.96 million. That was an above inflation increase of 5.7%. That's contrary to the motion. That's contrary to the statements of Katie Clark, Jackie Bailey, Rachel Hamilton, and David Clark. That settlement also included 48.4 million in capital, a 3% increase in the previous year to improve facilities for firefighters and in invest in their estate, the fleet, operational equipment. and also means that the annual capital budget for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is now6.2 million pounds more than 202425. There was also a suggestion uh before I conclude presiding officer that the Scotch Fire and Rescue Service didn't have the capacity to respond to the Kang Gorm's uh wildfire. The chief fire officer directly contradicts this. Um when SCORE was activated, that was the weekend of the 24th of July. the a on average there were 10 to 15 uh uh appliances deployed to the care and gorms by the Scottish fire and rescue service. That service also had an average 330 frontline uh pumping fire appliances available across Scotland. Hence the benefit of having a Scottish national service able to respond to needs and have the capacity available uh to do so across the country. The demands of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service have changed and the review alongside the above inflation funding we are providing will ensure a fire service fit and ready for the future. One that is able to meet the new changing demands and importantly continue to protect our homes, our businesses, our communities and our natural environment. >> Thank you. That concludes our debate and I now close this meeting of the parliament.