Members’ Business: Driving Test Delays and the Impact on Learners in Scotland - 02 September 2026

The final item of business is a member's business debate on motion 832 in the name of Keith Brown on driving test delays and the impact on learners in Scotland. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put. I ask members who wish to speak in this debate to press the request to speak buttons now. Keith Brown. >> Thank you presigning officer. Uh I'm very grateful for the opportunity to bring this issue before parliament because although responsibility for driving tests rests with the UK government, the consequences of the current system are being felt by people and communities across Scotland. I'm also very grateful to all those members that signed this motion. I understand for the first time since I've been here nearly 20 years, this debate nearly never happened because a member who signed it and you require two parties to sign it from the reform party then withdrew her name this afternoon which put in jeopardy. Now I don't know if that was a mistake if she hadn't read the motion, didn't like it in some way or was trying to spike the debate but very unfortunate and there's not a single member of reform here as well. I do know though from the correspondence I've received that this is not a theoretical problem. It's affecting people's ability to work, to study, and particularly in rural communities simply to get on with their lives. I first became aware of the scale of the problem through constituents contacting me about their experiences trying to book a practical driving test. One constituent described logging on before 6:00 in the morning only to find themselves behind tens of thousands of other people in the queue. The reason for that is you don't join a local queue to join in Sterling or Scotland. You join behind everyone in the UK. And others have described waiting for hours to access the booking system only to find no suitable tests available or experiencing technical problems and losing the place altogether. For people who work or who attend college or have caring responsibilities, sitting online for hours in the hope that an appointment might appear simply is not realistic. And there is a significant financial consequence. Learner drivers are paying for additional lessons while they wait. Some are seeing their theory test certificates move closer and closer to expiry where they are unable to secure a practical test. So that's why I wrote to the UK government earlier this month setting out the experiences that my constituents had brought to me and asked what action was being taken. and I've now received a response from the Minister for Roads, Justin Madders MP. Now, I welcome the fact that the Minister acknowledges the frustration being experienced by learner drivers and importantly recognizes the particular impact on young people in rural areas where access to work, education, and social activities can depend upon having a driving license. And the minister also assures me that action is being taken. He says that Scotland is included in the DVSA program to increase test capacity, including through recruiting and training new examiners, encouraging qualified staff to return to examining roles, increasing training capacity, and offering overtime incentives. And he tells me also that waiting times have now fallen to under 21 weeks and that testing capacity is at its strongest level in more than a year with appointment availability at its highest level since 2024. And I really genuinely hope that's uh the beginning of a genuine improvement. But there is a problem. It simply is not the experience uh being reported to me by people on the ground. People are not contacting my office to complain that they have been given a test in 20 weeks. rather than 24 weeks. They're contacting me because they cannot get a test at all. And I think we need to distinguish between two different things, waiting times and availability. An average waiting time statistic is of little comfort to the learner who logs onto the booking system and cannot find an appointment anywhere reasonably accessible to them. If there is no test available to book, the theoretical waiting time is almost irrelevant. So I'd like to know what the national improvements described by the minister actually mean for people in club manager in Sterling and across Scotland. How many additional tests have been made available locally? How many additional examiners have been recruited or deployed here? How has capacity changed at individual test centers? And most importantly, when should learners in our communities expect to be able to log on and find a test that they can actually book? The minister's letter says that resources are being deployed to areas of highest demand and that workforce planning and demand forecasting are being strengthened. If that is happening, we need to see the evidence of it locally. And there's also the question of changes to the booking system. I absolutely understand why action had to be taken against the manipulation and resale of driving tests. Nobody should be able to profiter from a shortage of appointments. The UK government says reforms have significantly reduced manipulation and reseller activity and that the DVSA has carried out more than 6,000 enforcement interventions since the changes were introduced. And that is welcome. But we also need to ask whether measures designed to stop abuse have inadvertently made the system less flexible for genuine learners and legitimate driving instructors. Tackling the resale of appointments should not mean making an already difficult system even harder for the people it's supposed to serve. And there's another group for whom these delays create a particularly acute problem. One constituent who's contacted me had moved to Scotland from the United States to work with the Church of Scotland. As a US license holder, they have a limited period following arrival in this country during which they can drive using that license. But before they can even book a practical test, they must first meet the residency requirements for taking the theory test. That significantly reduces the window available to complete the whole process. And a practical test weight of many months, assuming they can secure an appointment at all and what should be a straightforward process, becomes extraordinarily difficult. And that illustrates why this matter goes well beyond inconvenience. For some people, having a driving license is fundamental to their ability to work. For young people in rural communities, it can determine whether a particular job, apprenticeship, or college course is realistically accessible. And there is an inequality here, too. Somebody with a financial means to continue paying for lessons for months while waiting for a test is in a very different position from a young person or family already struggling with the cost of living. So I also asked the UK government to consider what could be done for people whose theory certificates expire because they have simply been unable to access a practical test. People should not have to pay again and repeat a test they have already passed because the state has been unable to provide the next stage of the process within a reasonable period. >> I will do. Yes. >> Rachel Hamilton. >> Thank Keith Brown for taking the intervention. I received a letter on the 25th of August from from one of my constituents who was absolutely frantic about the process of booking for her daughter who's clearly looking for work as well and I believe that one in six people are locked out of work in Scotland because of this. Um she was getting up at 6:00 a.m. in the morning for six weeks and because the DVSA have changed the criteria to stop the bots, it means that only the person applying for the test can apply for that um application. And I think this is something that I would appeal that we work together uh towards is to bring our collective cross party concerns from our constituents and raise them as one to the DVSA on behalf of Scotland because I think there is as a collective we could do a lot more. >> Keith Brown as can I thank the member for her intervention and of course she will have an even greater experience of the rural effect in this area as well. I accept that. Now, I also accept that she probably wouldn't want to support every part of my motion, but I do undertake I do undertake to work together with those where there's common ground, and I think there is a lot of common ground in relation to this. So, the minister in response to my query said he was closely monitoring the measures that he's introduced, and that if waiting times cannot be reduced to an acceptable level, further action will be considered. And I welcome that commitment as well. But it raises two obvious questions. What does the UK government regard as an acceptable waiting time? and by what date does it expect to achieve those acceptable waiting times? Because a target and a timetable is very difficult for parliament or indeed learners without a target or a timetable. It's very hard for them to judge whether these measures are succeeding. I also raised the question of devolution. It seems entirely reasonable to me. Uh the minister confirmed there are currently no plans to devolve responsibility for driving tests to either Scotland or Wales, although he acknowledges that this could be done through changes to legislation. If the UK government intends to retain responsibility for the service, then it must also accept responsibility for ensuring the service actually works. But if the present system consistently fails to provide an adequate service in Scotland, then it's perfectly reasonable in my view to ask whether decisions about capacity, resources, and delivery will be better taken here. Now, the Prime Minister Andy Bernham has spoken about a new approach of devolution by default. A presumption that power should sit closer to the people and communities they affect rather than being held unnecessarily at Westminster. Presiding officer, when it comes to driving test, the current system is quite literally defaulting. If the UK government cannot provide a system that allows people in Scotland to access a basic public service within a reasonable time, then the case for retaining that power at Westminster becomes very difficult to sustain. If devolution by default is genuinely meant to mean something, this would be a very good place to start. It's time in my view to put Scotland in the driving seat and devolve these powers to the Scottish Parliament because the reality is that we know the particular challenges facing our rural communities. We know the needs of learners across Scotland and we should have the ability to design a system that responds to them. And also from the example I gave, it seems fairly straightforward to me that the UK solution of everybody in the UK having to bid into the 20,000 waiting list at 6:00 in the morning is not working. So, as I say, time to put these uh powers uh to the Scottish Parliament. So, I do welcome the insuranceances I've now received from the UK government, and I genuinely hope that the measures outlined by the minister work, but assurances from Whiteall are not the same thing as appointments appearing in a booking screen. So, the test of success is actually very simple. Can a learner driver in clip manure, Sterling, Dumblain, Cosby Head in my constituency bridge of Allen or across Scotland within a reasonable time find an appointment reasonably close to where they live and sit their test without months of unnecessary delay and additional expense. I had one example from a colleague who's no longer here who told me his friend moved down to Preston for a week having got an appointment down there, played some golf, passed his test and came back up. But people shouldn't be asked to do that. And at the moment, too many people are telling me that the answer is no. And I would tell every member here, you you'll have constituents in the same position, and it's a grim experience for them. So, I will continue to press the UK government and the DVSA for action. And following this debate, I intend to go back to the minister specifically seeking the local information that is missing from his first response. I want to know what additional capacity is being delivered, what improvement learners here should expect to see, and when they should expect to see it. Because while the UK government tells us that the system is improving, my constituents are telling me they still not can get cannot get a test and ultimately is the test and the ability to procure it that matters. Thank you, presiding officer, >> David Lindon. >> Thank you, presiding officer. It's a pleasure to follow Keith Brown whom I congratulate for securing the debate and thank him for the opportunity to shine a light on an issue that is Mr. Brown rightly says affects thousands of constituents. I don't think there'll be any of the 129 members in this chamber who are not impacted by this. Um, and so I want to at the outset declare an interest firstly because I've got Bison test center in my constituency. It's also the test center where 19 years ago I passed my own test and I pay tribute to the staff there for the work that they do um to to provide a service there. But the reason I chose to speak in Mr. Browns debate is because in June I received an email from Lynn who lives in the Broom House area of my constituency and she was talking about the fact that her daughter had to wait months to to reset a test and she spoke about the the race against time particularly in respect of the theory test which runs out and I think it's important that Mr. Brown um put in context that this impacts so many young people and there are many spin-offs from that um in terms of the impact in the economy. I saw for example earlier on today when the minister who'll respond to this debate was um taking a question from another member of the chamber on the issue of the nighttime economy. So you know if you've got young people who are wanting to take up a job for example in the upur hotel and they're they're doing a late shift at night the the reality is having a car is actually very important. Um but lots of young people I'm afraid at the moment are being prohibited from the ability to take up jobs for example at the upl hotel which the minister of course um spends quite a fair bit of time in from time to time um because of this delay in people getting access to tests but there's also a financial barrier as well because in the period when someone is waiting to take a test whether that's their initial test or reset test almost certainly presiding officer you will find their driving instructor saying to them well look don't be away from the gears and and the pedals for too long. So come and do more lessons. Now lessons are incredibly expensive and we're in the middle of a cost of living crisis. So there's a financial element to this as well. So I think that there are lots of opportunities that mean that young people are essentially being held back because of this delay and dthering at the DVSA which Mr. Brown is absolutely right to put on the record. And so he is right and I would support his calls for ministers in White Hall to take action to ensure that young people and indeed people of all ages are able to get these tests. And of course if the British government is unable to get its act together, if the prime minister is too busy playing the stone roses, then maybe it's time for them to consider devolving responsibility for driving tests to this institution. But my fundamental message to the British government tonight is that start moving up the gears. Let's get motoring and let's get young people like Lynn's daughter onto the road and getting those opportunities. Thank you, >> Finley Carson. >> Thank you, presiding officer. Um, I congratulate Keith Brown for gaining cross party support, then losing cross party support, then once again gaining cross party support. With that said, I I do welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate and recognize the genuine concerns that have been raised by my constituents regarding access to practical driving tests. Whilst this motion ra relates to the experiences of learners and families in Clark Maner and Dumblain, it highlights issues that have been felt right across Scotland, including in my own constituency of Galloway and Western F. For many people, driving passing a driving test is much more than a personal milestone. The ability to drive can be the difference between accessing education opportunities, securing employment, taking up an apprenticeship or fulfilling caring responsibilities. And in a rural and semi-ural community where public transport options are often limited, obtaining a driving license is often a necessity rather than a convenience. Learners frequently report joining online booking cues early in the morning only to find thousands of them ahead of them. Others spend hours attempting to secure an appointment with little success. Even when learners have completed their training and are ready to set their tests often face months of uncertainty before suitable slots become available. And as we've already heard, there is a real financial burden. Learners often continuing to pay for lessons to maintain their driving standards while waiting for a test date. Many face the prospect of theory test certificates expiring before they can access a practical test. Uh and my daughter who was included twice that that happened. um requiring them uh this requires them to incur further expense and it's no fault of their own and this is at a time where families are already facing financial pressures and that is understandably a source of great frustration and the concerns outlined in the motion are therefore entirely legitimate and I agree that urgent access action is required to reduce waiting times improve access to practical driving tests and ensure that learners are not unfairly penalized by a system that is struggling to meet demand. Learners deserve to get a booking system that works effectively and transparently, and they deserve confidence that they can secure a test within a reasonable time scale. However, while I share much of the concerns expressed in the motion, I'm sure it comes at no uh surprise to the member that I'm less persuaded by its conclusions that responsibility for driving tests should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament if improvements are not delivered. The difficulties facing learn learners today are operational problems that require practical solutions. The priority must be to increase test capacity, recruiting and retaining examiners, improving access to appointments and ensuring that the booking system functions fairly and efficiently. Simply transferring responsibility from one parliament to another would not in itself create more examiners, open more test slots or shorten waiting times for learners and dump Newton Stewart, Cass Douglas or anywhere else in Scotland indeed constituents contacting us about this issue. I will >> Keith Brown >> I appreciate his point and it's not unexpected. I would say just to explain I'm not doing this from a a genuinely doctrinary point of view. I'm one of the people in my party and not everyone agrees that thought that during the independence referendum perfectly legitimate for Scotland to have signed an MOU with DVLA to provide some of the services that they do. But if I'm not providing the service uh then that's a different question and I would I would say I would say it's not necessarily just about more examiners even changing the app to an app that works so it's localized would have a beneficial impact. So just to reassure the member I'm not doing it simply for doctrinary reasons. Carson. >> Yeah, I I I take on board what the the member suggesting, but you know, transferring that doesn't necessarily that suggest a parliament in Scotland would would do it any better. Um, you know, you could argue that devolution of uh, you know, healthboard responsibilities closer to home to health boards might shorten waiting times and and have more responsibility to to those who are are accessing those health services locally. However, >> quick. Rachel Hamilton. >> Thank you. I think I can demonstrate that um it isn't a Scottish specific problem um compared to the rest of the United Kingdom because um an FOI that I had suggested that in Barericon Tweed the average waiting time was 24 weeks and in Kelsu it was 18 um and I've got loads of figures like that. So it actually is as bad over the border as it is in Scotland and I think we need to be looking at it as a UKwide uh system. So I would just add that to context to Finley Carson's um argument. >> Finley Carson. >> Yeah, I I think yeah, for one of those reasons, I I do believe that doesn't matter what Parliament is, the focus should should be on securing improvements to the service itself. Uh the DVSA and the UK government, yes, should be held accountable. Uh and they should be delivering meaningful reductions in waiting times and restoring confidence in the system. But the experiences highlighted in this motion deserve action and they deserve attention and this debate will no doubt have done that. But while constitutional debates may attract headlines uh the real measure of success will be whether the learners in clack manager Dumblain Galloway and Dree and across Scotland can access practical driving tests when they need one. That's what learners are asking for and that's absolutely where our focus should be. >> Don Black Thank you, presiding officer. And I refer you to my registered interest as a DVSA approved driving instructor. So, I'm going to come at this from a slightly different angle. Um, the significant delays still being faced by learner drivers for their driving tests create the stress, uncertainty, and additional costs for lessons, and they're not great for instructors or driving schools either. Now, it's been rehearsed already the impact that it has on learning. Obtaining a driving license is not a matter of convenience or a right of passage for learners in rural constituencies like mine, but an absolute necessity to be able to access education, work, health appointments, and seeing family and friends as their reality is that there is no feasible public transport available to them. And indeed, a driving license also opens doors to jobs and can be a prerequisite to being hired. And disappointingly, it's often those very communities that rely most heavily on cars that are experiencing longest waiting times for driving tests. Analysis by the RAAC Foundation found that Fford Test Center in my constituency actually has the longest median waiting time in the whole of the UK at 29.7 weeks. That's almost seven months. That is the length of time it generally takes to teach someone how to drive. So, it's just not acceptable. And I know from my experience as a driving instructor that some of the contributing factors to the backlog are pupils not showing up for tests or presenting for tests before they're ready and are unlikely to pass. So then they need to keep booking subsequent tests or turning up to the test center without their provisional license or a car that'sed and or not roadworthy. And even pupils from anywhere in the UK are being able to book tests in the northeast of Scotland or anywhere in the UK and are traveling and taking local test slots away from local pupils. And it's so much wasted. And to their credit, the DVSA have managed to stop the illegal selling of tests at inflated prices and the proliferation of cancellation apps by only allowing the students to book their own tests directly on the UK government website. But this in turn is also hamping hampering uh driving instructors ability to manage their driving schools effect efficiently and effectively. So it's not just affecting the learners, it's also infect affecting the instructors. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Keith Brown, >> thank you for taking the intervention. My brother has been a driving instructor for over 30 years and I had a long discussion with him about it and I acknowledge the points that you make. Uh, one of the points was that often the driving instructor is the one that knows when a pupil should be represented for a test and that's now been taken away admittedly as part of a well-intentioned measure to try and remedy it, but it's not working really. >> Don Black. >> Yes, I would totally agree with that point and and your brother's absolutely correct. Um, but the key factor behind backlog is actually capacity, the shortage of full-time driving in examiners. Now, I've witnessed at test centers myself, and the National Audits Office investigation into driving test center waiting times has also confirmed that examiner recruitment and retention is a major barrier to reducing the backlog. Examiners are classed as civil servants and in 2024 2025, the examiner attrition rate stood at 14%, which is double the 7.1 average within the civil service. To attract more applicants and retain them, it's clear that examiners need to be paid more for the vital job that they do. They currently get just 26 to30,000 a year for a high stress job where they go out on the road in a car with a novice driver they do not know seven times a day, 5 days a week. And the DVSA has run many recruitment campaigns. And I've witnessed them and even considered it myself at one point. But a longerterm approach to workforce planning is necessary alongside more action to improve morale. But while they've taken steps to increase the number of examiners through recruitment, bringing examiners out of retirement and deployment of qualified management staff back into the examiner role, some of these actions appear to have actually forgotten about Scotland. Because in 2025, the DVSA announced an agreement with the Ministry of Defense under which 35 defense driving examiners could conduct driving tests one day a week for a year. But that additional support provided was only in England. So, it's no coincidence that seven out of the 10 10 test centers in the UK with the longest driving test waiting times are actually in Scotland. The DVSA has failed to effectively manage driving examiner recruitment in Scotland and now the scale of the challenge requires a more ambitious and responsive approach and it's no longer sufficient for the DVSA to blame the pandemic for these delays which they did for quite a long time. Learners have been waiting too long and Scottish test centers cannot continue to be treated as an afterthought. And the Labor government um there's one here. Sorry, I was about to say there's none but there's one. um has shown over the past two years that they is unable to get a grip of the problem and learner drivers deserve much better than the current UK centralized system and it's time they were given the service they need and deserve. So I therefore urge the Scottish government to continue engaging with the UK government and the DVSA to improve the situation in Scotland. And I'd ask the minister to consider the role that Scottish driving instructor training and professional development could play within the Transport Scotland's road safety framework to 2030. So for the sake of learner drivers across Scotland, we must ensure that they're not held back from getting a driving license by the UK system that is failing. I now call on Tom Arthur to respond to the debate. >> Thank you very much, presiding officer. Can I begin by thanking Keith Brown for bringing this motion to parliament? Um it's clear from the contributions that we've heard from members that this is an issue that is significantly impacting upon constituents the length and breadth of the country. And of course there will be a a differential to that impact based upon rurality and availability of public transport as well. So while constituents across Scotland will be experiencing the impact of the challenges and being able to secure a driving test, that impact will not be felt equally and that is something that we we have to bear in mind. Um and I'm grateful for the number of members who have taken the time to illustrate their constituent cases. I note the case that Mr. London raised and the impact that is having. He made reference to my own constituency and I look at my own constituency as a county constituency with a a significant rural and perural element. the utter importance of having a car um and the opportunities um but also just the necessities of life that are afforded and made possible by access to to a car and particularly the impact that that will have upon young people as they leave school and progress into further education, training, apprenticeships, employment. Um we recognize we have some significant challenges around youth employment and economic inactivity in this country and it's important that when we can make interventions to address that some of which are complex and systemic but some of which are more straightforward such as the operation of public agencies with regards to the provision of driving test that we take these opportunities to do so. Um, I also note the points that Don Black makes as well, bringing her professional background and expertise to bear. Um, and want to assure that the reflections that she's offered to the chamber will form part of the Scottish government's thinking. Well, of course, recognizing that this is a reserved area and I appreciate the points that have been articulated by uh both both Mr. Brown and indeed uh by Finley Carson as well. But uh while these are predominantly operational matters, there clearly is significant questions uh to be posed to the UK government with regards to their responsibilities and oversight. And while I spoke about the differential impact that constituents will face depending upon provision of public transport and rurality, um the points that Miss Black raises certainly highlight the differential impact it's been felt across the UK with the statistics that she has put on the record. Now, while this of course is a reserved area, I would want to assure the uh the chamber that the the government is engaged in this matter and we will seek to continue to engage with the UK government and to push them to take action. Um, I would note the points that Keith Brown raised with regards to his engagement for UK Minister Justin Madders. And I would want to ensure the member that uh following this evening's debate, the cabinet secretary for transport, Steven Flynn, will be writing to his counterpart in the UK government to highlight the issues that have been raised in this debate and also take the opportunity to raise these matters at the next interministerial forum. Happy to give way. Keith Brown, >> can I thank the minister for taking intervention and for the action he's proposing to take on behalf of the Scottish government. I have to say I was unaware of the point which Don Black has made about the use of the armed forces and it sets me off in a different path which gets me very animated. Over the years I've seen as a minister and elsewhere wherever there was a question of the armed forces being used to help in a situation in Scotland, we were being offered as if it was a favor from someone else. And the ability for people to try and get support for the armed forces in Scotland is quite substantial. It's a it's a constant struggle to use the armed forces in this way as if they were an adjunct for only England and Wales. It's destructive of that support for the armed forces. I feel very strongly about this issue and if you can make that part of your representations that would be very um welcome given what Don Black has said. Tom Arthur, >> I'll certainly be happy to ask that that is included in the representations made particularly given the authority and the moral authority with which Mr. Brown speaks upon these matters. Um, just by way of information to the chamber, I would want to share that officials met with the DVSA at the end of August who confirmed that they are working to increase the testing capacity and that is to the extent of delivering almost 200,000 practical tests across the UK in July 26 alone. and understand that this is more than 120,000 additional tests conducted since April compared with the same period last year. However, as we have heard, waiting times in Scotland remain too high, averaging at 20.9 weeks and I'm informed that the DVSA recognizes that Scotland faces a testing capacity gap as has been highlighted in the contributions. Um, DVSA is in response and I think this was something that was articulated in the correspondence that Mr. Brown received DVC is recruiting additional examiners, increasing training and overtime and targeting resources where demand is the greatest. Um there is also um it's been touched upon the work that's been undertaken around reform to tackle misuse of the booking system by third party operators. Um however, I recognize that there may be some unintended consequences that have arisen from that that have been articulated in the debate. So I I will ask again that in the representations that officials continue to make and indeed the c engagement the cabinet secretary will take forward that is something that can be raised as well. It's also important I think we recognize that there's clear communication and information is provided and this is about reducing uncertainty and individuals understand time scales and support that is um available to them. I'm informed that the DVSA is committed to ongoing monitoring of progress and we do welcome the publication of additional driving test performance data on their website which goes towards providing that greater transparency on local and national waiting times and appointment availability. But I note the key point that Mr. Brown raised which is not to conflate availability with waiting times. Um and frankly just reflecting upon the experiences of individual constituents which have been articulated around having to join a waiting list very early in the day. I think that is something that we're all prepared to do if we want to go and see our our favorite artists perform and headline a stadium gig and hope we can get a ticket. I don't think it's something we really expect when we get in terms of access of a fundamental public service. So we want to engage constructively with the UK government on this presiding officer and yeah certainly happy to before I conclude >> Carol moan great thanks very much I really appreciate the debate it's been really worthwhile I think um and it's just to offer to say the points are so valid that I think cross party it's important to to work in that way um and so if there is things that yourself or members feel that we can do cross party to raise this issue then I would certainly be very happy in behalf of the labor group to to do that. Tom Arthur, >> can I reckon I thank the member for the contribution and recognize that um while it's for government to to respond based upon the the the contributions that have been made in the position that government forms and have stated how we will seek to do that and I would note of course that well it's for parliament not for government parliament is of course at liberty to explore these issues through its existing structures across party groups and committees and I just think giving the the impacts upon devolved competencies that this is leading to that have been articulated quite clearly from across the chamber. It may be something um that members of parliament wish to consider through their their various fora that are available. However, I would want to give the undertaking I'm committed to engaging constructively and along with the cabinet secretary, keeping members up to date. And as I said, uh following tonight's um debate, uh the cabinet secretary for transport, Steven Flynn, will be writing to his counterpart and seeking that opportunity to discuss these matters at a future interministerial group meeting. On that presiding officer, I will draw my remarks to a conclusion. And again, I would like to thank the member Keith Brown for bringing forward this important debate and for all the members for their contribution this evening. That concludes the debate and I close this meeting.