Meet The 'Anti Ben Shapiro' | Greed, Capitalism, And Masculinity

today we're speaking with Steven Bonnell Otherwise Known online as Destiny he's one of the most outspoken Millennial political commentators describes himself as a very big Social Democrat and is in many ways the anti-bip hero there are certain social programs that we should advocate for in the United States we should have those social programs and then we should tax people accordingly today we're getting a little controversial and breaking down the fundamental differences between the left and the right discussing some of the biggest problems that are tearing apart America and the events that caused him to become more liberal as he began making millions of dollar as I went from being broke to making a lot of money I started to realize like how totally and unfair life was over the past like 12 or 13 years My Views have slowly changed to being more left leaning basically we're also going to be talking about greed capitalism relationships and toxic masculinity on this episode of subscribe that's my line Jack I always say I'm this episode of subscribe okay the point is guys subscribe like comment thank you so much but first a word from our sponsor guys we got to give a huge thank you to our sponsor Unbound Marino they sent us a bunch of shirts and I got to say they're my favorite shirts I've ever had in my entire life I still don't think you've washed it which is a bit of a concern I have washed it once I've had it for 3 weeks but Graham it doesn't smell at all because it's 100% Marino Wolf I think you'd be shocked at just how soft it is yeah they sent us a whole bunch of stuff and I have to say it is absolutely comfortable I just wear it all the time because it feels like pajamas but it doesn't look like pajamas I've played pickle ball in it gone on walks and even worn it to the gym and it still smells like it did when I first put it on that's because Marino wool is incredibly light moisture waking and odor resistant not only is their clothing super practical but it 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coffee hour my name is Destiny and we're going to be arguing about why hot chocolate is better than ice coffee for the next two hours oh jeez it's so much better though so welcome Destiny to the ice coffee R podcast this is truly an honor I was put on to you by Lex Friedman oh cool you were on his show for over 4 hours it was like one of the longest Lex Freedman episodes I think I've ever listened to in its entirety it was incredible I absolutely loved it and uh I feel like I hope this isn't demeaning you are kind of similar or comparable to the Ben Shapiro of the left have you heard that before I prefer to think that Ben Shapiro is kind of like the destiny of the right sure we very intelligent fast talking people and highly opinionated as well sure but I respect it I absolutely respect it and I'm excited to talk hopefully on some policies some drama you you recently signed a kick deal right um I did a three-month one a while ago I might be signing another one but I'm is it absolutely did it end yeah it was just for three months but I'm in the talks of signing another one potentially oh you are are you able to talk about that um I can talk about whatever I want to talk about okay and you also have a rumble deal as well yeah I do yes and how's why there's a lot of stuff you got a lot of deals why are you signing with all these companies instead of twitch or YouTube you got more deals than we have well on Twitch I'm Prim ban for being transphobic I think that's why you got Perma banned I I I guess so I'm not sure they don't actually tell you but what did you say that was trans fobic or initially I thought that there's a part on the to is you can't like discriminate people from certain activities and there's a lot of discussion uh the day before I think about like stuff related to trans athletes and everything so I thought maybe I got banned for that then I've talked to a couple people that are like Friends of the company or work in the and apparently I got banned for calling a bunch of people subhuman and they subhuman yeah that's like my go-to cuz it's like a it's not a slur really who are you calling subhuman the group of people I was fighting with but I guess their interpretation was that I was saying that all trans people were subhuman so you were fighting with someone who is trans yeah okay so you're telling that person not all trans group that person that the people interpreted what you were trying to explain is what you think happened maybe I'm not sure I mean it might have been an accurate maybe they think that calling groups of people like sub when like a group of people fighting with is not good but I I think it's was pretty obvious what I'm talk I mean like I've got a big trans Community I do a lot of trans issues on my stream um obviously I'm not transphobic but when I was arguing with this group people was like these extreme like activist Types on you or on Twitter are all subhuman like it's not worth engaging with them I'm not going to bother and I think when they heard that their interpretation was like well that could be interpreted as him calling all trans people subhuman so yeah what was the ideology that these extreme trans people were purporting that you disagreed with or that you thought was subhuman there is a um oh my God you're making me dig back but a year go there I I got involved in a weird personal fight with a Creator who claimed that I brigaded their chat with my chat to harass them but I had even I didn't even know this person existed yet when that particular thing happened um and then this was around a time when we had been arguing about a bunch of trans issues already and I am my position on trans stuff is um I I believe that there is a fact of the matter about whether or not a person is trans and I think that having dysphoria is an important part of getting trans treatment and that kind of stands in contrast to right now there's something called the self idid movement which is you trans if you say you're trans and I Bute heads a lot with those people and because of my position which they sometimes summarizes transmedicalism uh they call me transic essentially and how does twitch just go and misinterpret what you have to say and then cut off what would probably be your primary source of income do you think that this is a problem within with twitch itself or maybe do you think if you could go back in time you would have rephrased what you had said um I'd probably rephrase it might just be that sometimes twitch like slowly evolves their standards over time for what's acceptable what's not acceptable and it doesn't necessarily go by the to so for instance you're not supposed to use the words like or autistic that's bad for twitch but nobody punishes for it so everybody uses the terms of the platform you don't get in trouble for it but I think one day you might say it and they might decide to start Banning for it so sometimes when I rant that people subhuman is like a thing oh subhuman blah blah blah I don't never got in trouble for it in the past but maybe now they've kind of updated internally that people aren't going to say that word anymore and that's what I caught a ban for maybe I'm not sure that I don't have like any official communication with them so I'm like really guessing so they they didn't really tell you exactly what it was you're kind of just assuming no it's the email that I got was for hateful conduct but they that's it very broad sweeping hateful I don't think they're ever going to give you a specific I think that's in to yeah any social media platform they have the right to terminate you at any point for really any reason you're on their platform at the end of the day so if they make the decision whether you agree or not I mean they're not going to tell you because you said this because then it gives you something to disagree with you know MH so but then what do you think of the twitch platform in general are you bullish on it or do you think that these weird policies make it seem like it's not going to last very long especially with all these other competitors with all of this funding coming out and then buying up streamers yeah very bearish um I think twitch has a lot of problems related to like uh company bloat like that company grew to an insane size I think they're having a lot of trouble figuring out internally what they want the culture of the company to be and there's a lot of different stuff that a lot of employees are working on that aren't really providing any value to users or to viewers at the end of the day um so yeah I'm not not too big on it but I mean who knows it seems like a lot of people are leaving right now I'm seeing a lot of kick deals mhm a lot of kick a lot of Rumble yeah what do you think it is about those platforms that differentiates from twitch at this point is it purely because they're throwing money at creators or right now Pur the money okay yeah the go the problem um the issue with trying to build competing platforms there's a few issues uh in my opinion I think a lot of the talent acquisition is not being done in the best way because the goal is to acquire talent but you want their users to stay on the site it's not enough to just like buy a streamer and then have them there and then hope that the users like stick around like you have to kind of build that organic viewer base so that people are drawn to the site naturally that's a really really difficult thing to do I heard that a lot of the kick revenue is coming from stake and that when I went on Kick I saw that gambling was one of the top things that they were D I don't want to say directing people to but when you go to the website on the top of the screen you see like gambling and you see more people are watching that than just about anything else yeah which is probably why they're trying to acquire more Talent as to get other types of streamers on the site of course cuz I could imagine they pay somebody let's just $10 million to stream on there for a year how much more Revenue are they going to get on the back end from stake from people who go watch gambling streams think oh wow you know maybe I'm interested in this too do it lose and then that goes back pays for the Creator I think ultimately the goal is to make the site profitable I don't know if it's only supposed to work as a funnel to stake and then for stake to give him Kickbacks to run the site I think that's the goal but you should bring that Eddie guy in and interview him what do you think about the ethics of going on the site kick knowing that potentially some of the money could be used or it's it's funded by essentially gambling money yeah I saw pokem man's response to that which was really interesting about the ethical and the moral dilemma of are you I saw his response to pokem man's thing her response was not interesting or I watch that none of these streamers care about gambling they just it's like platform Wars and gambling is like the vector they use to like attack like other platforms I like why do they attack it is it like a moral grandstanding thing or do you think that they could be insecure about their viewership relative that or do you think it's a true passion thing like they actually care about the people that could it's absolutely not a true passion thing I think that um there's a lot of weird kind of like games clicky games going on um so like you've got like factions of streamers you've got like train Rex and xqc and on that they're on one team and then on another team you've got like Hassan kind of like more mainstream twitch people like fight with each other like they're on opposing teams so sometimes they so with the exec and train moving to one platform these guys might feel incentivized to kind of attack this because one these guys are on a different team and these guys like fight a ton with each other and then two they're on Twitch and obviously they feel some loyalty to their platform so they want to attack like a competing platform as well that would be my guess what are your thoughts on the gambling aspect of is that I don't want to say ethically or morally right but let's just say you have a younger demographic of audience 10 to 18 years old do you think subjecting them to gambling is a good thing to do or do you think it's not worth it's a great thing to do yeah what was the phrasing of that question would you rather goo would you rather go would you rather go at 13 or would you rather go broke at 30 okay 13y old can't take loans they can't lose a house they can't destroy their life 30-year-old can so it's good to learn that lesson of going broke at 13 um I'm just say because I think personal control is is something that has to be you know factored in that that you know it's it's out there and it's up to you to decide if that's right for you or not I mean yeah for me personally I don't like gambling much like I don't think I would ever promote it unless I got paid an obscene amount of money to do it um just cuz it's not like in my opinion from everything I've seen I'm pretty sure gambling addictions are like the worst addiction of like any Addiction ever um because like it doesn't threaten your health so you can do it for an infinite amount of time there's tons of other ways to get money um the tricks and things that are employed by casinos to make you keep pulling the lever like mess with your mind a lot so personally I don't like gambling in terms of like would I support a platform that has like kickbacks from gambling that the when you start to get into like ethical consumption questions it gets very very very difficult once you get like one or two levels removed to figure out like where the responsibility lies because then you get into like do I want to be on Twitch because Amazon had that one thing going on with the workers in the warehouse and their tornado or the whatever or do I want to be on um Rumble because they have like far-right people on there that might you know advocate for violence against Jewish people like do I want to be on this what not to say that like these platforms are bad or even that this I don't know that happens but like I'm just saying that when you start to get into like layers of responsibility removed in today's society everything is so interconnected it's really hard I feel like you could attack anybody for any thing ever so if you really really really don't like gambling and that's like a huge moral sticking point view which it isn't for any of these streamers that pretend it is but if that is a huge sticking point view then I'd say maybe stay away from kick like you probably wouldn't want to support the plat for maybe um but yeah but before we go into that I do have an exciting message to share about our sponsor streamyard as I'm sure you guys can see we have a pretty decent setup unfortunately things like this are incredibly expensive but it does need to be if you guys check 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free for no money me a lot checked it out in the description thank you so much streamyard and back to the podcast how would you describe your own political philosophy uh my own political philosophy so I kind of have like these very fundamental moral positions and then from there I try to just build out like what are the policy positions I think that would make the world the best for the most amount of people so right now I tend to be like uh I'm very liberal with a capital L so no socialism fascism whatever I'm very liberal with the capital I very much appreciate like rights to private property free speech and all of that um very much a capitalist I think that that form of economic organization does a really good job at allocating money to different sectors very efficiently um very big on like social democracy I think that the government should be involved in kind of like funneling and channeling a lot of the desires of society so providing incentives for green energy so that Capital markets can invest appropriately um yeah I'm pretty open socially like I'm cool with LGBT people and all that um very big on free speech like I think that platforms are probably a little bit too heavy-handed right now and banning and censoring people for ideas they don't want discuss uh yeah kind of yeah what are these fundamental moral positions that you have like some of the main biggest ones or most most important ones that you hold closest to you that you develop these political ideologies from at the very very very very very fundamental level like I perceive myself as a person that has some set of preferences or desires um I perceive that everybody else is about like 99% matched on those we all basically want the same thing and then and from there I try to like build out like what are the things and agreements that I can make with other people to make sure that all of us are kind of like working together in a way that keeps everybody is happy and healthy and functional as possible so everything kind of builds up from there kind of utilitarian um I mean you could argue that sure where do you think you got those beliefs from I think when I was like 16 17 I used to be really Catholic growing up um and I kind of lost my religion through high school just through whatever normal growing process asking questions not getting satisfactory answers and in the process of kind of losing that religious foundation for life I kind of had to think of what other Foundation I could find um I read a lot of Ein Rand and I realized after like a year of that um that I I really liked it and then I at the end I was like well maybe I just like this because I read the first author after becoming an atheist and this is just who I happen to like so then I was like okay I'm going to put that aside and I'm really going to think for myself like what do I think is important in life what do I think is important for other people and I try to figure out kind of like these fundamental principles and then any political position rather than inheriting it from like some political group or my family or my country whatever and try to the best of like what do I think is like a good Universal rule for society to make people happy and healthy have you always been a really deep thinker like that I don't I say it's a deep thinker um but I mean yeah I mean I'm kind of a geek a nerd I guess yeah but you seem kind of like like a skeptic to certain things like if you hear some sort of information like the einan thing like you kind of supported it but then you beg the question to yourself like well do I really support this like you said because it's the first book that you read after becoming atheist or whatever um what in you do you think causes you to be so critical or open-minded I was say to those things like questioning your own ideology questioning the other things that people tell you is it something that maybe a value your parents instilled in you when you're a child or is it just maybe the way you biological are I'm going to be honest I got really lucky I took an AP Psychology class in high school and that class like half the class is just learning about how much your brain lies to you about things like the different biases you have the different ways you search for information the different ways you remember selectively certain things and that class combined with me becoming an atheist and then engaging with other people that were still so very religious so I saw that like I can't really trust my own brain 100% And I see other people can have very strong convictions about things that I think they're totally dumb on they they're completely wrong on so in my mind I kind of I try to have this like underlying sense of not paranoia or self-doubt but like for every um I try to have like good mechanisms in place to make sure that I'm not like getting lost down some dumb I guess uh so like here's like a couple of like things that I try to keep in mind when I'm arguing for a certain debate or arguing a certain position I always know the arguments on the other side in their best most powerful Stillman form so often times when I'm debating people I usually know usually is their side of the argument better than them uh because I spent so much time going back and forth on it because I think if you don't understand the opposing argument then your argument could have a lot of flaws or you could be you could be missing something that you're not aware of that's one thing a second thing is U even if I've got a lot of conviction about a certain thing um I'll always ask myself like if I feel like I've got a lot of conviction or finding a lot of people I'll I'll sometimes I'll tell like what would it take to change my mind on a certain position and if I don't have an answer to that immediately then realize like I'm probably my conviction here is too strong if I can't even think of something that would change my mind um yeah but there's like yeah there's like a lot of things like that I just kind of try to audit my brain a lot especially now being like an online content creator it's the easiest way to get lost in like an echo chamber of where you discredit every outside voice and you just like circle jerk with your own people and You' never consider anything different how often do you change your beliefs um I mean hopefully not too often otherwise I wouldn't have any um I mean like it really depends on the thing like over time like I've evolved and changed in some beliefs sometimes I get posed a really good question argument and it'll cause a pretty dramatic shift on something but I mean my beliefs are like Fair my fundamental beliefs are have been relatively stable probably for about 15 years but how those play out in the abstract um have changed pretty significantly for a few things uh so like for instance like one probably the biggest thing that I've two huge things I've changed on is one I used to be like my single issue for voting was citizens united I thought that lobbying and corporate or lobbying and like Finance of Elections was like the most important issue in the United States um I had a lot of arguments with the conservative over citizens united and post that case oh and then I actually read what the the court case was about which apparently nobody does um after reading about the court case and then after thinking about it I realized this is a really really really difficult question and I actually don't think lobbying has anywhere near the impact on policies in the US that most people think it does so like that's something I dramatically changed my mind on so I assumed that lobbing does have a big impact what have you found on your end I just don't think it does almost I think that if you want well there's a lot of studies where people try to like they'll do is they'll measure like what are the desires of rich people middle class people poor people and then they'll try to figure out like who gets their way most of the time um when there's like political disagreements um I I think that when I think that when you're looking at um when you're looking at like how effective is lobbying or does lobbying have a big impact on policy the question that got posed to me that was really interesting was can you think of any major policy position that the majority of the American people agree on that for some reason can't get passed because that would be good evidence of like lobbying attacking the will of the American people or something and I going to give a single example of that there are a couple issues where it seems like that's the case but when you dig into the polling data it's a lot more complicated than you think like the answer I always give is like um if you pull people and like do you think the government should provide Healthcare to all of its citizens the answer that is 75% people so it's like overwhelmingly like well we should have Single Payer Healthcare right but then when you ask the question should the American government uh Outlaw private insurance and be the so provider of insurance support drops to that for like 25% it's like a 50 point difference and it's like oh okay so sometimes people say like oh all the American people want this thing but when you actually like get into more specific questions there's actually a lot of disagreement on what the American people like I think that if lobbying is effective anywhere lobbying is the most effective on kind of like more Fringe issues that don't don't have a lot of attention that's where you can make the most effort so like if tractors want to Lobby to like make themselves narrower so that corporations can make more M money selling parts or something you might be able to Lobby effectively there because most Americans don't care about it so like influencing politicians and donating in certain ways might be able to get you some yeah the latest one that I saw was about car dealerships that went together and lobbied for Less oversight of the loans that they issue that allows them to issue more than the cars MSRP to Consumers at higher interest rates so you know like when you go and get a credit card or a mortgage lot of oversight on that but you go get an auto loan very little and that was something they lobbied for sure but then you have to ask yourself when they lobbied for it is that something that most Americans would be okay with or not okay with because my guess is Americans going no are you guys do Finance here to say Americans are financially so stupid so like my guess is most Americans would actually probably be in favor of that right so yeah that's true that's interesting what are some of the cognitive biases that you that you learned about in that AP class I'm really curious I've always been fascinated by that oh man there's so many of them um what stands out to you the most one is um there's something called dun and Krueger uh where basically the idea is that people at really low levels of aptitude dramatically overestimate their confidence and people at higher levels of aptitude probably underestimate their confidence um my favorite way to see this play out in real life is if you ask somebody I don't I I don't know if this case but for my life if you ask somebody like hey um somebody brings up like Spanish do you speak Spanish and somebody's like yeah actually I speak like a I speak a pretty decent amount 99% of the time somebody gives an answer like that they took like up to Spanish 3 in high school and they're like don't l bibliotech or whatever um but I know a lot of people like um my mom is a good example if I ask my mom like how like Mom how good is your Spanish she'll be like ah it's like it's okay my mom is a fluent Spanish speaker she just doesn't know some technical terms whatever but she'll like oh it's okay that like on foreign language when you ask people I notice that a lot that if I ask somebody do you speak a language if they're really if they're conversationally fluent they'll be like uh you know I'm okay because they realize like how much they don't know um that shows up in everything usually people have um there's like a curve for measuring this a theoretical curve or whatever and that there's like the the the little bump in the beginning is called Mount that's where you learn a little bit about a topic and because you've learned a little you dramatically overestimate how much you actually know and then as you learn more and more you're like oh okay maybe it's a lot more complicated than I initially thought um some people call that dun and Krueger that's one example um I think there going something called a fundamental attribution bias which is where when you see there's a group of people that you like and they do something um that's maybe not good you've got a lot of good reasons why they did it if you see a group of people do something that's not good they don't get any of that consideration so classic examples like I'm speeding to work I got to cut somebody whatever I'm I I have to get to work I'm driving safe I'm doing everything I can right but if you're driving you're kind of chilling somebody cuts you off it's like what a piece how dangerous or blah blah blah oh a really good example of this um I think oh God I should have the study memorized but I think there was a study where Republicans were asked to judge whether or not welfare was like okay or not and I think if you put like a white person on the cover versus a black person if they saw the white person they were more likely to say like oh this guy's probably down in his luck like he needs a little bit of help blah blah blah um yeah I think that's called fundamental misattribution bias um there's a whole bunch of cognitive cognitive biases in terms of like searching for information is the classic confirmation bias so I go to search for information 10 things pop up I only see the things that agree with me and I don't look at anything else um yeah yeah there's so there's so many different things I feel like research yeah yeah I always find it interesting that two people could have the exact same experience but interpret it entirely differently the same experience same time they're right next to each other two totally opposite opinions on that yeah that's frustrating but yeah it happens yeah so let's talk about your philosophy development over time and how it's changed because I know that you've said on podcast before that you had a moment where you were a self-proclaimed red pill red pill person not red pill maybe libertarian libertarian was it yeah okay when I first started streaming a long long time ago um I grew so first of I grew up like r or die Republican uh my parents are still r or die Republicans um all through high school I was a r or die Republican and then when I got to working I was still kind of like pretty conservative and then right before I got into streaming I was probably my most conservative and then I started streaming and as I went from being broke to making a lot of money I started to realize like how totally and unfair life was prior to making a lot of money so over time over the past like 12 or 13 years My Views have slowly changed to being more left leaning basically so it caused you making more money to realize how bad it was when you didn't Havey It's usually the opposite right usually from what I've seen it's like the more money you make the more conservative you tend to get I mean I can understand from a policy position people don't want to like pay taxes maybe but yeah so what made you while you're making money to realize that maybe these beliefs that I held are not um are not for me I I don't agree with them what specifically um well like so this is something I believe I firmly believe that conservatives and liberals everybody on the planet has like the same fundamental values and like their first order kind of thoughts are all identical so they want people to be able to be successful most people want be able to pursue some sort of career and be successful conservatives think that the answer to that is um leave people alone no government intervention make sure the family is healthy make sure people have enough encouragement in their own lives to pursue what they want and give people the freedom to explore that and they should be able to figure that out on their own cuz it's America anybody can do anything liberals on the other hand tend to say some people have some systemic uh inequities is the way the El now or inequalities that they can't overcome so the government needs to step in kind of like give them a push to help them keep up with other people essentially um but both of these like things I think stem from the same place where conservatives think this is the best way to be happy and healthy liberals think this is the best way to be happy and healthy um yeah the the that's the difference between the wait what was your initial question my question was when you started making money what changed your belief like why did make money why change from one to the other like what realize that process I think that as I so I probably started with that conservative position but then as I made more money I started to realize that like with a little bit of help like for certain people things can go way differently and it would probably benefit literally everybody in society to have that little bit of extra help there so for instance when I think of like college or college achievement in my mind a kid who can go to college and do well in college nothing financially should ever stop that person that just shouldn't be possible if you have the ability to succeed we need to provide those people with all the tools to succeed um on you can argue on a moral ethical level you can argue on economics level because they're going to be a higher taxpayer contributor to the country financially GDP and all that um that would just be like a really good thing to do in my conservative days I would probably think like well if you're willing to put in the work get the grades get the scholarships you can do it but then as I get older I see like well sometimes life is sometimes stuff happens and another thing I noticed was wealthy families children have a lot of benefits that not wealthy or poor children don't have that in a way work like subsidies they just come from like Mom and Dad instead of from the government so like for instance something I noticed growing up when you're poor you have a very very very small tolerance for mistakes like if you like if I like I lived in Omaha Nebraska and I drove between Omaha and K BL all the time and anybody that's ever been on I80 uh going east to west or west east is potholes all the time if I pop a tire or God forbid break a wheel I'm like financially like 3 months it's like over it's the worst thing in the world so the tolerance for mistakes is really low whereas today I could total my car and go buy another one of the dealership like tonight like it doesn't matter so the so the amount of mistakes that I can make are way different and normally when you think of from a from I would critique the conservative perspective they would say well you should be able to um pick yourself up and do what you need to do and and figure life out and if you up that's your fault and it's like I agree if you up it's your fault but if you're poor you can up so many fewer times than the people that are wealthy you've got such a safety net for Mom and Dad I've seen a lot of poor people have more motivation to succeed because they didn't have those things growing up and so they don't take them for granted they don't just ignore them for them it's like something to Aspire to whereas because I went to both a public and a private school and I've seen a huge difference between them lot of the private school kids most of them did well but quite a few of them had everything handed to them and just no motivation whatsoever whereas the public school kids a lot of them ended up in really interesting careers because they really they would push themselves isn't there a saying that like wealth stops third generation most of the time some percentage uh it's just gone yeah maybe I mean I would I don't think that's true at all no way I would fight to the death on that I went to a private school and then I went to a public college and I was blown the away when I saw the difference in educational outcomes between kids in college and kids at the public when I went to high school my my freshman book was called college algebra and I thought it was just called that to make us feel smart or whatever and then when I actually got to college and I realized people didn't take algebra until they were in college that like blew my mind I'm sure there are um oh here's another cognitive bi something called um survivorship bias to where yeah if you see like a thousand people in a shitty area the only ones you're going to see after some time are the people that made it out and then it's tempting to say well I know a lot of people from really bad backgrounds that made it out like really well so maybe everybody can do that and it's like well those are probably the exceptions to the rule rather than the rule itself um like a really good example I can't even think of this in my own family um I am pretty Frugal with my money um I drive a $40,000 car um all of the expenses that I have are generally related to like just where I live like I've got like a I think $5,000 a month apartment um and then other than that I like and then travel for work I don't like spend any money anything I have sweatpants I've got my own merch on um I just I don't buy a lot of I just don't so I save all my money the reason why I do that is because when I grew up in my family um I'm sure you guys have heard of Lifestyle creep that's like a way of life for my whole family make some money get some more um debt make more money more liability make more money that's everybody in my family does that I think everybody picked up financial habits my parents um I saw what everybody else was doing I was like I'm going to do the exact opposite because it sounds horrible so you could look at me and go oh well look see because your parents are so kind of like financially um bad you became really financially good so like maybe that was good for you and I was like maybe but the rest of my like six siblings are financially horrible so I'm probably the exception there rather than the rule you how much of that do you think just comes down to the person though that that's just who they are they tend to gravitate towards that you naturally gravitate towards saving that's just you in a nutshell versus your environment I mean it's the the reality is is there's probably like a really complicated Confluence of environmental factors that kind of shape you as you grow up along with some biological ones and who's to say like what is the thing or not that pushed you in One Direction like maybe because I played a lot of RPGs growing up and I saved all of my potions for like the final boss maybe that's why I don't spend my money like I don't know maybe it was funny I was the same way I was the same way saved everything I had this one app on my phone it like this car racing game I have millions of coins on there and I've not spent any yeah so I mean who knows why anybody turns out the way they do it it's hard to say but like I could think there's like 50 million potential reasons why yeah I've noticed like one of the most destructive things that you can do to a kid is to give them everything and then they feel totally entitled and then they don't feel like they have to work for certain things don't you feel like that in a sense could be replicated by a government that potentially gives out too many handouts towards people or do you think that it's a completely different thing because you were mentioning that educ system which I think is also different than like food stamps even I'm sure like that would that would make sense as well because obviously people need to eat and everything but in other ways of of uh like some sort of Social Security MH I mean like there there's with with everything in life there's a balance right um You I think the goal for when you parent a kid is you you're not looking to give them all the answers you're looking to give them all the tools and all the opportunities so a kid should still be challenged in educ are challenged in life but you want to make sure they have the appropriate tools to deal with those challenges um there's I mean like this probably applies to every single thing in life right like if you're like a if you're a normal human um and you're not roiding up um it's not like if you go to the gym twice a day seven days a week that's going to make you even stronger right that's you're probably going to get injured you're not going to make any gains you're not going to like that's going to be horrible right um so you have to balance out like the the working out with the recovery and I think for Life a lot of that is like kind of the same like some level of like tension some level of adversity is really healthy for you because you develop a tenacity to deal with other problems later in life you don't want to remove all adversity from children which I think a lot of people today try to do which is really bad so some adversity is good but it can't be NeverEnding adversity and and and Trauma like um I think they're called aces in Psychology adverse childhood experiences um based on like the amount of like traumatic experience you've had a child you can like make so many predictions on bad physiological outcomes cardiovascular disease lifespan um all sorts of things based on trauma and dirt as a child so yeah I there's just a there's a there's a balance to be struck you can't give somebody everything but they should have the tools to deal with like anything that could come what was your experience growing up um your adversities um I think I just I lucked out on a lot of things but it was not the best I guess um I don't know that's a very broad question where you want to go growing up what do you think your biggest obstacles were growing up my mom did a she did a home daycare so my mom was very much involved in raising like 12 other kids cuz it was a 24 seven day care that she ran all the time uh my dad was working on other stuff um he worked full-time and then did have you ever heard of Amway yes okay the MLM yeah yeah Amway New Vision a lot of these like MLM things um so I was kind of like left to my own devices up until I think around like 12 or 13 um our life was like pretty decent I didn't realize like how much debt my parents had and everything but like we lived like a really solid middle class life it was pretty cool um but I think when I turned I think when I was 12 or 13 there was an issue that came up where one of the kids in the basement um one of the boys I think he was like seven years old like tried to pull the pants down of like some 5-year-old girl some dumb kids do dumb my mom talked to uh the boy's parents and when the boy's parents heard this um they pulled the kid out of daycare and they reported my mom to CPS and so Child Protective Services came out and they did a big investigation and my parents don't do any wrong dumb stuff like that so they were cleared everything was fine but my mom was like so stressed out by that event because CPS is like when your parent is the scariest thing in the world to have in your house that she decided to completely quit the daycare business cuz she didn't want to risk anything like that ever happening like losing her children to some crazy parent or whatever when we quit that we made no money so all of our income went away um we had this very awkward dance of like being outside in the car repo man jumping in and like taking the keys um utilities getting shut off all the time so not knowing if there's like water electricity um eventually our first house got um foreclosed defaulted on the mortgage it got foreclosed moved to another house rented that for a while then got kicked out of that my mom and sister moved to Florida me and my dad moved to another house we got ran of that for a little bit got kicked out of that um and then I eventually ended up living with my grandma in like a senior citizen apartment complex for my last two years of high school um and then through high school I worked uh my senior year I worked as a McDonald's and then freshman to senior year I worked as a it's called work study where you could do like janitorial work after school for two and a half hours to help pay for your education basically yeah so that yeah that's a little bit of it I guess so seeing your family lose the house do you think that also helped you save in the sense that like you never know what's going to happen if you if you don't spend too much you're going to have something to fall back on I didn't understand I didn't know anything about Finance at the time I had no idea my the way that my parents described to is like they were oh my God we were only like a few payments away from owning the house that's what they they said and I was like wow they got completely scammed by the bank but now that I'm older I haven't asked them but my guess is they probably were drawing down on the equity of the house a lot through helocs or some other type of like loan against the house or something so um yeah but um for it eventually um I mean I mean by the time I got older and I saw like how they spent money and everything yeah I definitely was like when I make money like to me money is just Freedom that's all it is it's the freedom to either not work or to travel or to be comfortable or whatever and not have to worry about ever paying a bill that's like the most stressful thing in the world is when you're balancing you know having to decide which bill to pay at the end of the month is the worst feeling in the world yeah when you were working as the Jan or janitorial thing uh that was all throughout high school and you stopped at senior year um yeah the it was it was a work study program with my high school so you worked at the high school for so then after that college um my senior of high school I was in McDonald's for a little bit um I was very very very patient I don't know why I'm very good at dealing with like adverse people um I'm just just whatever a reason um and I had a very challenged customer come in and just give me a whole bunch of stupid and talk about it what happened honestly I don't customers are just horrible um I've always had a dream of like going back and getting a job at McDonald's like now and just waiting for the right guy to my day up yeah and I'm just going to absolutely unload on him and then like walk out in like a rented Ferrari or some and just drive away and just trash this guys I hate customers but anyway what what is it about customers though maybe is it just they're impatient no respect for any person ever for but do you think that's a confirmation bias though no people are well no no to be fair most customers aren't like this when you work in a service sh it only takes one guy to really your day up um and the level of like entitlement that people have and like the disgust that they treat service workers with like you're a slave um God I remember um my senior year in high school I'm taking I'm taking so much math okay and this guy at my cash register is telling his kid if a cash register is not working okay the if it's not working you can't process a sale okay it's a whole point of sale system that tracks inventory and everything it's not 192 4 where the thing just does the math for you so I tell the guy in front of me it's a dad and his kid I'm like hold on my reg down I can't do it and the dad's like oh well the change is like 72 cents and it's like I'm dual enroll taking like Cal 3 d c I don't need you to do basic math for me and the dad goes to his kid and he's like this is why you need to study hard in school you don't want to wind up not knowing anything like this guy I'm like are you serious that's just like one of like a million examples okay and I'm like what you what do you say what do you say to that do you pretend like nothing I just do my and whatever but anyway there there was a there was a customer who was like screaming because his like egg McMuffin wasn't coming out soon enough oh here's another thing customers do customer walk into a restaurant okay and it come be like I want an extra well done steak extra well done and then they go and they sit at a table and then someone else come in they like oh I want like a salad and they'll sit down the salad will come out in like a minute and the extra well done steak guy will come up and he'll be like where's my steak that person was here after me why did they get their food before I was like are you actually serious you know like time works or um but I think in McDonald's I think it was I think it was something like that like a guy ordered like a breakfast that was like four or five items somebody came in after them ordered something and they just wanted like a it was like a McMuffin or it was something really quick or McGriddle or something and they got it and then the guy came out he started screaming like oh you guys always do this you deprioritize my order blah blah blah um I eventually I got that guy's food I just whatever I don't care um and then the next lady line was a supervisor at a restaurant in a casino and she was like oh you dealt with that really well you should come work at the casino so I put an application there I moved jobs to a casino that paid way better my pay got bumped from I think back then I was thinking I want to say it was 515 an hour was the minimum wage maybe it's 5 25 an hour um so I went from that job to making 15 an hour at this casino which was Bank I'm basically Rich at this point um how old were you at the time like uh it must have been 18 or 19 um I end up going to college for uh I want to go to college for music my Casino job I was really really really good at I'm very extroverted I'm very social I knew all the workers there I knew all the customers um and I like to be like if I'm doing a particular thing I like to be really good at it so I could do everything front of house really well I could do everything back of house really well I could cook I could do prep work I could do everything uh I was a really good worker but um I don't know if you figured this out at all about me I have a problem with authority and in my mind if I'm really good at my job and I'm doing everything really well I should have a lot of leeway to do things in an effective Manner and I would I would bump heads with my management on a lot of things um on a lot of stupid things like one issue that I remember came up was um if you're fam with Excel right okay Excel is a very powerful program it's not just for writing notes in a spreadsheet you can do a lot with Excel one thing that um one thing that we would do is every single day whoever was supervising for it was either swing or graveyard I think depending on what was going on you would get from um the uh accounting department your cash register variances every day and what people would do is about an hour shift a supervisor would go back and they would take all the variances they would put them into a spreadsheet then they would take all of the variant all of the cach register reports and then they would take out a calculator and they would add and subtract every single thing every day to measure up like where the variances are to see people are missing money from their registers um this took about an hour every day uh at one point I as I was getting these things I noticed that when accounting sends these things it's always in the exact same format and like when an employee leaves or rejoins they even leave like an empty space and I'm like oh well if it always comes in the exact same format you could probably just make a spreadsheet and then just like do like the little math operations program it in so I figured out that like okay if if you make these like little formulas it took me all of like 20 minutes not very complicated copy pastes thing and then you can calculate the variances in about two seconds you just copy paste them in and so I'm thinking like oh cool I just saved every supervisor like an hour per shift and I talk to my manager about this I got in trouble for it and she was like we can't use Excel because sometimes it makes mistakes and then everything will get like messed up like don't divert from the process I was like what um so there were a a bunch of little issues like that I remember on one issue um when I was working at graveyard shift um first of all graveyard is where all happiness and Norms go to die just everything is horrible on gra yes probably everything in real life ever but um my graveyard ships were very challenging because one they gave me employees that sometimes they could barely speak English I had this Sudanese guy named Tut who didn't know what a cheeseburger was I worked at a diner okay so I'm like teaching this guy to read while working the register okay and I have very few employees already and it's just a it's just a nightmare of a scenario but I remember one day Pam comes in uh morning shift that's my manager and I've got there's a big like soda machine and there's a bunch of fruit flies underneath it and she's like stepen why are there fruit flies underneath the soda machine grave shift you guys should have clean it up and I was like listen I tell swing shift that they need to leave this place a little bit cleaner for me because you're ging me one employee overnight I there's I don't have the time we don't have the manpower to do this and she's like oh well why didn't you talk to me about this and I was like and I said I talk to all the swing Shi have to supervis about it and she's like if you're not getting the answer that you need to do your job effectively then you need to email and CC the person above the person that you're having an issue with and I was like okay that's good advice several months later as I'm we're running these promotions at the casino I'm getting more and more swamp for my grave shift I'm I'm running into issues where eventually in the morning a VP of like food and beverage walks by the restaurant there's a bunch of unclean tables and then I get an email from Pam saying hey just so you know VP food and beverages buy wasn't happy with the state of the restaurant and by this point I'm leaving a lot out but like I'm getting so swamped and at this job it's like unreal they're having me cut like my last cook at like 3:00 or 400 a.m. so I'm doing front of house and all the cooking and everything on my own are they're expecting this place to look good by morning she was like impossible so I email her and then I CC the head of food and beverage above her and I'm like hey if you want these jobs done I need more employees blah blah blah and I didn't realize it at the time but I basically marked myself for deletion at that point no yeah so past that there's a there's a thing we call incorporate called papering somebody out the door I didn't like I was like aware of it at the time that this was even happening to me because I fig I'm such a good employee I'm getting fired that over time I start getting written up for every single little thing and I don't think much about it because whatever like I come into work like I had only missed one day of work in like 3 years but all of a sudden I start getting written up if I'm in like 2 minutes late like big write ups too I'm like okay um and then one day there's a complicated scenario with a girl that might get fired or not I end up getting fired because I tell a girl that she's going to get fired if she comes in like and I don't have the authority to fire employees it was like a really convoluted stupid thing um yeah and that just yeah it hit me like a ton of why they want you out I I still don't get that what was the reason because you went above somebody else because I think because I made my manager look bad because I emailed the guy above her and then she didn't like that at all yeah and I think that was I just I didn't understand like corporate politics anything I was an idiot I didn't play it correctly at all that whole era of my life is really bad because me and my girlfriend at the time had we bought a house when I like a year earlier and now I didn't have money to pay for the house when you were working at the casino yeah because I was making a lot of money but after getting fir from the casino I started to fall behind on the mortgage started to fall behind on other bills um I was kind of like stuck in like a hopeless cuz I'm not going back to school I'm stuck in a really shitty job not making enough money for the lifestyle that I had um cuz my pay went from uh the casino I'm getting 225 hour for overtime and now for carpet cleaning I'm working like 13-day stretches because I get like every other Sunday off and I'm my take-home pay is like $2,000 a month so I'm getting like completely obliterated were you like in the red then every single month um it started to hit that point yeah and what did your girlfriend think of the time where you got fired from your job and you're just kind of hanging out at home playing Star Starcraft 2 while you have bills and mortgages and stuff like that um well it she was working at the time so she didn't know as much but um when she when she was it's not I it's not like I was not working and playing Starcraft like I would only play in the times between jobs because the issue was for carb like if I'm really lucky you might get like an eight hour job and an 8 hour job you're getting paid um $16 an hour um so however much that ends up being um 80 and 40 whatever um I'm I'm working that and then I go home 140 yeah something yeah um I work that job um go home and then I've got like a whole evening to play games right um if if I if I'm lucky I've got like a good 8 hour job I make like a lot of money I do that but if I but if I've got like a lot of jobs scouted throughout the day then I might be like working like on the on call basically for like 12 to 16 hours but I'm only making like $ 30 or $40 um depending on the so like playing Starcraft in between was was the only thing I could do or just sit around at the office doing nothing yeah and I'm assuming this was the last job that you had the carpet cleaning before you got into streaming fulltime yeah and that was like did it take off immediately how was the progression of your career I think it probably took about 6 months before people were like oh like you can solicit like PayPal donations and stuff and I started to do that after a few after like six or seven months I think it was in December or November of 20 um 2010 is where I got like my first payout from um I originally stream on live stream then you stream then a website called Justin TV and I think they started a partner program for some of the streamers I was one of the first people in it um if not the first person I'm not sure but they they I got a paycheck for like $23 or something for like ad revenue for a month yeah but when I got that $23 I looked back and I just did a quick calculation like how many hours do I stream and then how many hours do I do carbet cleaning and it's like if I stream the the dollar per hour I made streaming was about the same as my dollar PR carpet cleaning and I was like carpet cleaning I was going to stay home and play video games and stream because I'll make about the same money so it and then from there everything started to increase quite a bit yeah and what what changes were you making to grow on Justin TV at the time were there certain like metas and different things that you could do like there was no the streaming didn't really exist yet the reason why I was able to start early on was because there was a really high technological hurdle because the software was incredibly complicated and streaming was very new so there weren't even very many people doing it um there were no forums to help with anything but I was willing to dump a lot of time into figuring out how to make all the stuff work but like the hardware at the time was not the greatest I think I was using an e6750 like Duo core chip um the yeah the software was horrible we use Flash media live encoder Camtasia studio and a bunch of other things virtual audio cables to get to work um and then the data was insane I think you were limited to like 300 to 500 kilobits per second for like a stream so it was very very very very hard to get everything working how many concurrent viewers would you have at the time um I probably started with like five six seven and then I grew to like 10 20 30 40 50 and yeah and when you were at 30 4050 is when it actually made sense to be doing that full time uh yeah but I was because I was just making so little money stre uh car cling yeah mhm and were you just playing video games at the time or were you talking about maybe different philosophies and ideas that you have or was it purely just like gameplay it was just video games like people watch me because I was really good at trash talk my background before streaming was a lot of trash talk and a lot of video game playing like the whole reason I think why I even got turned on a stream CU I had a friend recommend it to me he's like oh some people do this and me and a couple other friends would set up like Tekken or Mario Kart outside the um one of the classrooms at high school and we would be like playing screaming at each other and talking or whatever and he was like that was like a funny experience like having other people watch that would probably be funny too so that's basically what got me into it oh wow and then when did it start taking off to the point where it actually started changing your own personal philosophies and ideas on policy to turn you more liberal probably like 3 four five years 3 four five years I think it was once once my son started to grow and I saw how affected his life was by my finances that's when I think I started to change my view on things a lot so like the first year I did streaming full-time I think I managed to make $100,000 but I didn't know anything about the first year you did full time you made 100 Grand yeah but I didn't know anything about like taxes or whatever so I wasn't paying any taxes so my second year I had to deal with that which was kind of brutal um but I also the situation I had with my girlfriend at the time our relationship was very very very very very bad um so like she would live in my house um she got pregnant as we were breaking up every well I say she got pregnant I got a pregnant we got pregnant um and then U it's not like she did on her own yeah did it she did showed up one day yeah so she was living at the house I was like bouncing between all these other apartments because we couldn't live together without fighting physically with each other so I'm like bouncing around all these apartments with these weird people I'm trying to live with while I'm also trying to stream at the same time um so and then we moved to Poland for 3 months to do because I was in like some gaming house or whatever um but after I got home I think probably like in 2014 my life started to get a little bit more stable I started to make more solid reliable money without having to move around so much she got like a place um to stay and then when I started to make financial decisions based on my kid right so like which school district do I wanted to be in you know what opportunities I wanted to have then I started to see things a lot differently in terms of like how people's lives are affected by the finances of their parents that's probably what changed the most and what did you and your girlfriend at the time argue with or what what was the reason why you guys were arguing was it like fundamental differences or was it just like Petty random things where maybe you're I don't know you you guys just weren't compatible there's no chemistry um but depending on how deep you want to go into relationship Dynamics we love to sure we love talking about relationships there's I think there's like two primary um methods of settling disputes that people have um one is a group of people that are very conflict avoidant one is a group of people that are very like aggressive pursuer to resolve conflict um I'm very much like an avoidant kind of person or like if I'm if we're like in a triggered like things are bad I just need like 12 hours to cool off and don't talk to me and let me just like go somewhere and for whatever reason every single person I've dated has been very much like a pursuer kind of person like we've got conflict we need to resolve this right now so usually with her the issue would be I don't even we would fight over it would just be really dumb and then I'd want to be left alone and then she'd want to resolve it now and then that would escalate and escalate and escalate until I would try to like leave the house or we would end up like fighting with each other over something basically yeah how do you solve that like how do you make that Dynamic work um well now that I'm older the dynamic probably would have involved better communication from me and her about our issues um yeah setting more realistic boundaries around resolving conflict May if you explain that concept to her that also would have been good no that doesn't help you don't think like you say I'm a conflict appointment person like I just need 12 hours and I'll be doesn't matter that it's like it's like a conflict P it's like a pursuer person explaining to me why I need to resolve this right now like so for instance my my the current relationship with my wife she's very much like um if she's got conflict with me she needs to resolve it right now and I'm very much like an avoided person so one of us is like always losing when it comes to resolving conflict right like if we get into a fight over something more often than not it's because I've done something stupid so we'll and she'll want to resolve the issue and can you bring up an actual example or is that too intrusive um it no I don't want to bring up examp it's usually it usually it's fine it me hiding or lying about something something something really stupid that I shouldn't be doing but like um she what what will happen is or or not always also she up too okay don't no but like we'll have we'll have like an issue with something and um if if we go to resolve the conflict but one of two things could happen either one it has to be resolved right now so she's going to like lean into me and she like I need to resolve this we need to talk this blah blah blah and then that'll escalate me being like Okay blah blah until I get angry and I'm like you you're stupid get out of here go back to Sweden BL blah blah and then we'll fight like that and it's just not good and eventually maybe we'll resolve and it's whatever that so that would be like um if she pushes too hard um if I get my way then what'll happen is is we'll have a conflict and then I'll get 12 hours to cool off and at the end of the 12 hours I'll be like oh yeah it's probably dumb it's fine but at the end of the 12 hours for her she's thinking like the whole time like he's going to break up with me like it's over like he hates me like it's over blah blah blah blah blah so there's like it's very hard to strike a balance there because it's either I get super triggered when we fight or she's like left feeling like super panicky and triggered for like 12 hours while I'm like chilling out so it's really really hard for different people like obviously all you can do is communicate um we've got like little strategies that we try to employ like even if you hate somebody at the moment like tell them you love them so we're like still Chill on things um like things like that to let us know where we're okay but uh yeah it's it's it's a lot of work to resolve that but I don't think at like 20 I don't know if I would have been able to or if my partner at the time would have been able to because we're young and stupid so and would you consider yourself a pretty emotional person um like compared to other people prob not as much but I mean like yeah we're all emotional some yeah because it seems like if you're getting into an argument with someone like it seems to me like you have a very rational logical brain uh that You' be able to see that hey maybe if I say F you you know this type of stuff it's not going to lead towards the direction I want this conversation going like the problem is is that like ration and logic are like tools that can be emotionally aimed at like anything that you want so like if I'm fighting with somebody like I can be like very logical and rational but it might be like in a really tionally destructive way because I'm like emotionally disregulated right like I like if if I get into a fight with a partner like I might list like well here's like seven good reasons why this relationship should end and you should get the out of my face right now and everyone will be like logically consistent and like logical but like on an emotional level like I'm being a and what I should be saying is like let's like think of like a couple ways we can like fix this problem so a lot of people have this like dichotomy of like you can either be logical or you can be emotional but like I view things is kind of like a building block like foundationally you've got like a very foundational like emotional Vibe feeling whatever's going on down here and then your logic and reason comes unfortunately after that um if you're emotionally dis this took me a long time this took me like 30 years of my life to figure out because like I consider myself like a logic Lord so it took me a long time to figure this out but you are incredibly a slave to your emotional state and if you don't realize that then you're yourself up in so many different ways um but yeah I read somewhere that when you get in an argument parts of your brain actually shut down that make it almost impossible for you to hear the other side or Reason logically might be yeah I mean depending on takes time afterwards for your brain to like start functioning properly again after something like that yeah probably yeah depending I mean I know this like from arguing with people depending on how you attack an argument you can turn a person's ability to hear you completely off right away or you can do it in ways you can get them to be really recepted to what you have to say just depends on how you approach it yeah but that's it's a very challenging have you learned what the strategies are and how to implement them or no yeah for sure it it just depends on the person um and it depends on yeah there's a lot of different things are there any strategies that you could it's usually pretty specific to like a particular debate but like attacking like there there are just there are so many things um yeah there are so many different things gez so like let's say that we're arguing about like um let's say we're arguing about like uh housing right and we want to argue about rent control versus like public housing versus like zoning new housing or whatever if I'm really trying to pull somebody over to my side there's a lot of things that I need to keep in mind um one reminding the other person we have like a common goal like hey we want to like have as many people hous as possible Right like let's not lose sight of that whoever is right or wrong in the we have a shared goal at least um that would be one thing a second thing is like um don't ever attack the person attack the problem that's like relationship advice too right so never like you're you're so stupid why do you think this blah blah blah but more like um showing empathy like I understand why you might think this might be a good idea but you know have you consider this um having Grace when you're correct about things is very important never like look at this study it shows how completely wrong you are like what are you thinking but more that is 100% gr yeah you bring one thing up to gram like well I actually found 12 sources that yeah I immediately sources yeah phrasing things that gives the other person like agency or empowers them is really good like um I understand why you think that um but you should check out like this study maybe it'll change your mind on something like this is something that I just found recently right you're kind of like humbling yourself and giving them the opportunity like oh okay yeah maybe I would right so it it almost feels like it's coming from them instead of like coming from you um uh yeah there's like it super depends on the topic but there's so many different like little strategies like this that you can employ um providing people with a soft Landing Pad kind of goes with Grace if you change your mind on something I'm not going to like hold it over you or judge you for it like it'll be like oh cool like oh like okay yeah you're right about this particular thing and it's like yeah like I saw your point of view I understand but you know maybe I think this is a little bit better rather than like okay you're right it's like yeah of course I'm right you Mor on like you blah blah blah uh yeah there's really with relationships and debate and probably with like business partners and employees and employers and everything too there's just like a lot of strategies like that to be like you have to be very empathetic very soft very graceful very humble um and you give the other person as much kind of like space to like grow and think and develop as possible without being too aggressive because the problem is there's a lot of like psychological trips in the brain as soon as somebody perceives that they're being attacked they're no longer having a conversation now they're defending themselves right because if I come at you and I'm like um you have this position on like abortion or something and it's so wrong and so stupid in your mind you're not thinking like okay he disagrees my position let's hash it out in your mind you're like he thinks I'm a idiot well I can't lose the debate on this topic because if I am I'm conceding that I am a idiot so now you're not fighting for the idea you're fighting for your life at this point okay you can't be stupid you're not dumb you don't see yourself that way so the debate becomes less about that particular position and more about you trying to salvage your integrity or maintain and trying to get them to figure it out for themselves rather than injecting your own ideology into that space that you're hopefully creating by showing Grace ideally yeah yeah yeah so you be careful because in some of my debates you can see me do this really well and other debates I'm not doing this well at all it just depends on the loat but U yeah but these are things I try to keep in mind when having these conversations how do you learn how to do all this did you take a debate class like how did you get so good um I mean a lot of it you just learn a lot of it is no you don't just learn it a lot of it is like very deliberate like if I have a conversation with somebody and I'll go back after and I'm trying to think of like I'll try to think of like how can it come off better in this conversation um like I was I was talking with a friend earlier I just had a really challenging abortion debate like two days ago and in that debate both of my uh opponents were I don't want to say bad fi but they're like cutting me off at every single answer I'm giving and I realized like 30 minutes into the debate that like okay we've moved past logic I need to figure out on a meta level like how am I going to manage this conversation because right now it's a show um and from that point there's just a ton of different strategies that you can employ I'll try one and then I'll think back so like I think in that one I started to get like a little bit snarky I started to be like a little bit like playful SL assholish or whatever um but I might look back and I might say like okay well maybe if I would have like taken the high road and have been super calm the whole time and chill maybe I would have come off better um but in other debates there are times where I've like been very chill very cordial even when the other person's being aggressive and I've gone back and I reviewed that and I'm like you know when I look at how I performed in that debate when I was like very high Ro I very much was a cordial person I actually look really weak here because the other person is laying into me and laying out their whole philosophy I'm barely getting in any words and I'm not like defending myself at all so I just end up looking weak um in other debates there have been times where I'm very aggressive and then I come back and I'm like you know if I would have just chilled here and given this guy more time to make mistakes and look stupid I would have come off way better to the audience so there's a there's a big balancing game it's a very complicated dance study basically yeah yeah it's deliberate that's what I'm saying it's deliberate it doesn't just happen naturally it's like reviewing debates reviewing conversations and and then varying like your approach to see like how do I think an audience perceives me how do I perceive me and then reading a lot of feedback YouTube comment subreddit post 4chan posts other YouTube posts streamer chats like things on Twitter to see like how people feel about a particular conversation why is this so important to you uh why place this much time on debate and getting your thoughts across because I'm really good at it so if anybody's gon to do it it's got to be me um no I mean I super enjoy it it's really fun for me it's like a very it's like when you when you go to debate somebody there's like seven different huge skills like conversational like intellectual like research and prep um your demeanor there's like so many different things that go into it it's such a complicated back and forth I do think I'm pretty good at it I think people recognize that I do feel strongly about the ideas that I have and I like like to convince more people to think in them um I make a lot of money doing it so it's like a fun career path uh and it enables and unlocks me to do so many like really fun things in my life like if I wasn't doing streaming I would still be on Reddit or Twitter like arguing with people and like talking like that's just the kind of person I was like really fun for me yeah and just to finish up this chronological story of your entire life that brought you up to this table today you were streaming you became very successful Justin TV turned into Twitch TV you were doing twitch for a while can you talk about your income over time my income over time was um um I think I made like a decent amount of money I think in my like first my first like five to 10 years I was probably making like low six figures 100 to 200k a year maybe so very stable yeah pretty yeah very stable how were you not growing if you were continually going on Twitch was was your community just like subbing in and out there's some things that like came out and then dropped off like in the very very very beginning days of Justin TV like the ad Revenue was insane I think off of like 3 or 4,000 viewers I could like make $8,000 a month in Revenue which at the time was like really big and really good and then like that completely like fell off the map then subscribers were introduced to Twitch eventually um I made my own website to manage my own subscribers so I started to make more money there um yeah I it probably it probably grew a bit over time I don't know 100% it probably it probably went from like 100k to like 3 or 400k it probably was growing steadily um but I didn't have like any explosive growth my growth has always been like pretty stable the whole time and then my biggest most recent explosive explosive growth and income has come from my YouTube channel which was my greatest mistake of not starting that like I had a YouTube channel like 10 or 11 years ago that I think got to like 70 or 880,000 Subs which back then was like pretty good and I abandoned that for like eight or nine years and then just like I want to say like four years ago maybe I started taking my YouTube more seriously again I should have been doing that the whole time but that's been like my most recent like big income bump are you comfortable to talk about numbers that you're currently doing right now or is that off the table yeah I guess if you want to sure sure yeah so YouTube CU yeah so what percentages or numbers is is like YouTube versus twitch or sorry not twitch versus watch Twitch yeah versus like the kick deal versus Rumble and all that stuff so my website is where I have my own subs and people can donate through there and think on that I make about 250,000 a year I think is what I made last year I think around is that like an email thing or how are you it's just you go to destiny.gg and then you can subscribe there you can donate there it just it runs as its own completely side like chat and ecosystem whatever oh so you stream on there as well no it's just an embed from like YouTube or twitch oh okay well not twit but yeah um YouTube ad revenue is really good I probably make run like anywhere from 40 to 60,000 a mon off of that and then I've got like two other channels that make around like 20 to 30,000 a month I pay like 45% of all that ad Revenue goes to my um my YouTube editor who's definitely overpaid August uh no I'm just kidding um 45% a lot yeah I do yeah wa all of your channels uh yeah he gives a lot of money no yeah when did you when did you agree to that deal a long time ago before it was making um much I mean it's like 100k a month basically it's uh um yeah he does really well but um the basically the way that I saw it when I initially did it was no idea is Jack when I initially did it my my idea was basically that um I want him to be as invested in the channel growth as I am and I don't want to do anything I don't manage anything with my YouTube he does every thumbnail every video nothing I never look at it ever I get a check every basically month from completely satisfactory 100% yeah um if I went back in time I probably would have started at a lower rate probably but like I'm okay with him making a lot of money he's made me a ton of money he's made me like really successful like I'm cool that he can share in that success that's really awesome he have a bunch of editors now um he might be hiring out other people it's his job it's his money whatever he can do with it so yeah interesting mhm okay and then you of course you have the the rumble and the kick deal MH does your editor get a cut of those deals as well or just the videos he gets paid enough okay don't give him any ideas cut that part out that's funny okay cool so um your philosophy developed over time when you had your kids uh and then obviously when you started making more money you saw how much of an impact that makes on a child's life M interesting so my guess is then you think you should probably pay more in tax or what do you believe in this is my view on taxation okay it no I'm just kidding um I did leave California for a reason no uh well yeah but um there are certain social programs that we should advocate for in the United States and we should have those social programs and then we should tax people accordingly that's my view of it so some people are like very moral and like we should pay more taxes and we should pay less taxes like I'm not here to punish anybody with tax I don't care about that I just whatever social programs we have we should fund um I'm okay paying taxes I'm okay with the progressive tax system like I I definitely pay all my taxes um but yeah I'm never one like when somebody's like should we pay more or less I'm like we should have the social programs we need and then we should fund them so right now like the rate of Taxation for wealthy people is probably a little bit low but um my biggest complaint living in California was the state taxes here are really really really really really high I think the highest in every other place except for like New York City yep and I don't know where that money goes Nobody Does it goes to a rail system that was never built oh the billion dollar rail to Nowhere whatever yep um oh and the lamps did you guys see the lamps mm what was that nobody else has seen the lamps I feel crazy it was either it was like San Francisco or San Jose or LA or somebody there was like $10,000 L lamp installations on the street and no one knows YouTube videos of like this $2 million public bathroom was built in it's like a tiny little like normal public bathroom it's like yeah someone did an investigation of how this thing cost $2 million when the market value of that should have been about 80,000 and they went in and they investigated and they interviewed people who were involved that everyone was silent and it seems as a lot of money went to permits developers contracts random things and overpaying so if someone gets a budget of a million dollars they'll spend all million dollars saying well this concrete is 10 times more because you know this is what the budget is so it seems like a lot of money wasted on that it's very strange because like America's like the freest most capitalist country and blah blah blah on Earth but we have so much like bureaucratic red tape on like construction everything it's like insane spend all of your budget if you want to get it back what really upset me was that downtown Los Angeles they wanted to build a homeless shelter there and I forget I don't know la like already homeless shelter yeah so they wanted to build a new one downtown Los Angeles and so someone investigated this that they had signed a lease and they had been paying for like six years now $50,000 a month for a warehouse M they have not even started construction on it yet they not built it yet apparently it had Foundation issue and they couldn't do anything with it the issue but they kept paying it for years and so what it came down to was that the person who signed this did a deal with their friend and they had a business connection to spend all the money in a lease so that their colleague could get all the money for that without providing anything in return nice it's still going well so usually for a lot of stuff like that what will happen is is like you rent something you discover there's a problem then you have to contact an inspector then you have to wait for the inspector to come out then he the okay then like the city comes out and then they okay it and then step one of whatever thing happens and then another inspector comes out and and it's like it's just such a nightmare but but yeah that's my my big problem with LA is that like by the thing that really my head up was anytime I travel to Europe there are so many social services and everything available that seem to run pretty well like they're not perfect they've got their problems but like public transit in all of Europe is awesome and then I come back to America and I'm paying like now I live in Florida my tech situation is cool but when I live in California I've got huge cost of living I've got huge taxes and a massive state tax like I want to say my effective tax rate um like two like I want to say like two three years ago my effect Tex was like 42% or something and I'm like I'm like I've seen routinely more than 50% yeah I'm like paying like European levels of taxes here like this is wild like why why how am I paying like I'm supposed to be making fun of people in Europe for paying this level of Taxation um yeah so yeah that's that's my issue I I'll gladly pay a lot of taxes I just want to like get something for it I guess like if there's like a functional public transit in La maybe I'd feel differently or what's crazy with California the short-term uh capital gains tax rate is something about 53% really yeah short-term capital gains because you're taxed is ordinary income yeah and then you have to pay state tax on top of that and if you make over a million a year there's another 3.8 net investment tax that gets paid on top of that oh so when you say short-term capital games you're just talking about that the net added to the state on theed top income BR so it's it's Hefty can we talk about that Lex Freedman interview you did sure how was that like did he just reach out via DM or something like that because I'm a huge Lex Freedman fan and that like I said before we started rolling your suit today I should have worn my suit yeah that was the first time I was actually exposed to you and it was also I think it might have been back toback or very close to when he posted one with Ben Shapiro which I also really enjoyed I watched both yours and Ben's and I thought they were both really incredible great perspectives can you talk about like did he just DM you did he email you I had some crazy stuff going on on my stream for a while and I think he started to show up on my stream chat after finding me watching it after finding me through another streamer yeah that was weird CU we'll be like talking on chat about like is it moral to have like incestuous relations with twin brothers and then like Lex Freedman will like donate like 10 bucks be like I don't know what I walked into and I'm like just leave so you know it was Lex then yeah yeah yeah he watches a lot of streams sometimes I guess like he spends time doing things you interesting so then he just he was a fan of you he started he originally he was a fan of another streamer that was like a mutual friend of ours kind of and then he found me through that streamer and then he started watching me and then he invited me out eventually yeah and how was that was it just a real experience yeah it was cool he seems like a really I almost say naive is like maybe a negative way but for the most part he seems like a really genuinely friendly fun guy who just like wants the best for everybody you know so like na even in the best way I guess yeah interesting so I remember there was one thing that really stuck out to me from this interview is you quoted your mom and she said something like Stevie don't be so open your brain falls out and then Lex immediately like slammed the banhammer down he was like I I could not disagree with that anymore could you explain what exactly that means and why you believe it so um oh God there's like a Socrates quote I'm living in quotes right now where it's like it takes it takes the mind of an intelligent man to entertain an idea without accepting it or something so something that I work really hard on in life is I like to be able to look at a lot of different perspectives without losing myself and it seems like people typically go one of two ways either you're very open to everything but then basically you repeat whatever the last thing was told to you so like I would have a critique with Joe Rogan that I feel like he kind of does this where anybody that comes on he's kind like okay I see this is kind of cool and it doesn't really challenge as much or you have people that are dogmatic and can't hear any other idea like everything else is stupid wrong dumb and I'm not going to like even entertain the idea um something I hope I can do or that I'd like to be able to do is I have an open enough mind that I'll entertain other people's ideals I'll try to understand other people's perspectives but I very firmly have like my own beliefs and thoughts that I believe in and I'm not going to change my mind just because like this thing sounds interesting I guess so um don't ever have your mind so open that your brain falls out just means don't let the last person that talked your off like convince you of like every single new thing that they decide to say basically what do you think about core principles and then allowing your core principles to be changed do you think that that's a good idea or do you think that those core core principles that you identify with are some of the most uh I would say distinctive features of who you are yeah core principles are distinctive and really important the the only thing that should change core features is if if your life is constantly on like a bad trajectory or there's some in congruence with where you want to be and where you are and that seems to be getting messed up over and over again then it might be time to go back and reconsider some core principles but um yeah that's going to be super individualized to the person and the event but yeah but I would say anytime you're having a lot of issues over and over and over and over and over again and nothing seems to be working or changing then it might be time to like go back to the drawing board and refigure like okay like what something is wrong fundamentally like I need to figure out like what's going on yeah and uh can we talk about your relationship sure are you cool with that so Graham I don't know if you know this but he's in a open relationship right with your wife so you guys are able to see other people how did you come to that conclusion um okay my last relationship I cheated you cheated I think yeah is that really that surprising um I'm sorry I like um because I'm horny and dumb and just whatever um the what I realized after that relationship was like I am just never going to date again because I'm too cumer brained and I can't the idea of like being with one person for the rest I just can't I can't ever do it it's never going to work it's never going to happen and rather than subject somebody else to the horrors of dating me and being sh me I'm just going to do my own thing on my own it um so for a while I did that and eventually Molina uh my wife she reached out to me via Instagram and we kind of started floating a little bit and I was going through some weird stuff in California and then I had like a job opportunity pop up with like a sponsor camera system and I was like oh she's in New Zealand I've got a few friends in New Zealand I'm going to go to New Zealand hang out with her for a bit talk to other people and when I went down to New Zealand she has a lifestyle where she's like polyamorous um and then she describes this to me and I never even considered it before and I'm like okay this sounds kind of cool um and then eventually we start talking we start dating and from the outset basically we've had that style of relationship because I guess she was involved in it before and then once I found out about it this is like a dream for me because ideally it means that I can like work on my stuff do my and my my partner doesn't see me as like their sole source of like uh entertainment or whatever they need because they have the opportunity to go do other things and then if I want to I can go do other things it should be okay but why get married you're married to her yeah why why get married in that sort of she's Swedish so no because I want to live with her yeah yeah because without without getting married she can only see like three months out of the year so got it okay how does it I don't get how it works I don't get how this how how fundamental do you want the conversation how does it could you explain that no I don't get how either side could not get jealous possessive um wanting that person all to themselves it seems so foreign to me that she could be off doing something and I'm here my mind could just not process it as would like I can't do anything you know sure to me I I just I couldn't I think there's probably some I think there's some like natural level of jealousy that exists for literally every single type of interaction um like even in monogamous relationships somebody might get jealous if their significant others like has a close friend of the opposite sex or like is saying good things about somebody else like that that you view yourself as a competition to um that if they do things with friends you wanted to be including like there's a lot like places in life where jealousy and stuff can pop up um obviously your partner getting rail is probably one of the more prone to jealous environments that can happen I guess the the way that I view it is there are certain things in life that I really want to be able to do and being able to like hook up with other people and it's like really fun for me but I also feel like very secure in who I am and what I offer and what I can offer to other people and I don't think that my partner hooking up with other person is going to make them not like me because I'm an awesome person uh so if they want to go and explore stuff like that as long as I have the opportunity to as well and like we know we both love each other for for me it's just not that big of a deal does it ever concern you that you could potentially not be that way for the rest of your life and you've set this as the foundation of your relationship with her this is going to sound very brutal but the um it's going to be the most um Chicago School of Economics answer I ever give uh if at any point in time I'm not like a good enough partner for my person the last thing I would want is some monogamous bound like keeping them like locked to me like that's how I view it basically so if my partner ends up running into somebody and they like they treat her better they make her happier she has more fun with them that and she's like listen like I think I'm going to leave you with this person I mean you probably should you would be very matter of fact about it yeah I mean like I might be I mean like at that point core principles at that point I would have to evaluate like okay here's my wife I love her a lot she's met another person who provides all these things that I don't provide so then at that point I have to make a decision do I want to change myself enough to provide those things or do I like what I provide and what I can get and then I go find somebody that's more like synergistic with that basically let ask you this would you prefer if she be monogamous like all things considered just the Situation's exactly the same you could still do what ever you want but she's monogamous would you prefer that no why um so okay I'm breaking with a lot of norms here I'm sorry um ever since I was in high school I have a very aggressive personality um I really like strong characters I really like strong character in women uh like my first wife like was very much like we would argue and fight all the time for fun but like we' very much like I need people to like call me out on my like be like stirred and everything um if I have like a partnership with another person like a wife or girlfriend or whatever like in my eyes it has to be somewhat equal like if I was out sleeping with people and my wife for whatever reason didn't want to or never did or she was monogamous like I would view that as her not having any self-respect because she I'm basically getting a really big ask from her for like some sexual loyalty and then she's letting me go out and do whatever I want and at that I'm like why would you ever agree to that unless I've got like so much leverage over you or you're like so much beneath me that I have the ability to do that like that's how I view it I understand everybody view that's how I view it what if it wasn't sexual loyalty but it was more so she just didn't have any desire for anyone other than you oh I mean if she didn't want to then I I wouldn't care but it doesn't make a difference another me but if she didn't want to I'd probably okay with it the only thing that logistically that probably wouldn't work out though because if I'm out like hooking up with other people see other people and she's just like at home she like what the is happening like my husband should be hang out with me and he's like out you know hang out with random chicks like me you know so how do you draw those boundaries do you just say hey we have open discourse over who you're with who I'm with and of course we have this time that we reserve for each other uh it's very ult and we're still kind of working that out um for a variety of reasons but the the idealized form of our relationship is usually we both have other people that we like to see and if we're traveling consistent people uh ideally not always but ideally sometimes but the um basically if somebody's going to go hook up with somebody or travel to see somebody then the other person is doing it at the same time that's like the ideal so that everybody kind of has something to do um at the same time and nobody so you're like hey honey I'll be back in a few hours you're going there back in 20 minutes well I think we usually it's the goal would be to like plan things out like in advance kind of so like if she's going to travel to like New York to go do a photo shoot and she's got like a friend up there or whatever then I know that like a month in advance maybe I'll plan to like hook up with somebody in Miami while I'm there or something like that right that's I don't I can't okay so as a person who has only been monogamous and who plans to only be monog monogamous for the rest of my life just based off of who I know I am when I look at a relationship like this I cannot help but feel and I'm not being judgmental towards you in any capacity all the best comments start off with that that there no disrespect that there seems to be less love in a relationship that is like that can you dismantle that argument with facts and logic uh not at all there's a lot of these things are very emotionally driven I understand the argument that like if we're in love with each other you should only have eyes for me um and we only you know make love with each other because that's a special thing in a relationship I understand that argument um if I were to try to attack that as brutally as I could on the other end um and if I were to come at it from like I'm poly and I don't understand what OB people what I would probably say is that like for me um if my wife and I lost our genilia we would still have the exact same amount of love for each other I don't Define the love that I have for people or especially my wife by the fact that we have sex or some sexual exclusivity has no bearing whatsoever on my feeling for her like there are reasons why I love her there are reasons why I like to spend time with her and do things with her and travel with her and all these things and these things exist wholly independently from the sexual component but sex is important in love yeah for sure because but it's not like it's not here's the thing I right now I can any person that I can but the special moments that I share with like friends or my wife are moments I can only share with her I have a lot of sex with a lot of people but I can't have the same type of time that I spend with my wife with any other person that's just not possible so like that's the thing for me that defines the relationship there's a lot of people that I've had sexual experiences with there's not a lot of people that I've had like really loving vulnerable caring kind nurturing moments with yeah how do you feel like your relationship affects your son seeing this man I don't know that for him all sorts of up when he gets hold enough um the policy that I have with my kid is a policy that I've always had for myself I am very very very open and very honest about basically everything um like even when he six if he ask me a question for like how does a car work like I'll try to describe everything I can I never want to say like oh like you'll know when you're older oh I just want to blah blah blah I try to keep things age appropriate but like because I've been like so open for so long I think that generally like because me and his mom are split he's got his household with his mom and he's got his whole family as Mom side his grandma grandpa and everything over there and then he's got me and then hopefully like my wife so like when I fly into town or when he comes to Miami he visits me and then he knows that like he knows we're married he knows my girlfriend and we hang out but because because we've been split the entire time I don't think he had to undergo that Schism of like why aren't Mom and Dad together anymore and I don't understand why there's all these other people and blah blah blah that's just kind of like what he's always known as the norm and for all the faults that me and Rachel his mom had in our relationship she does an amazing job being a mom and working with me in terms of like working with my son like we don't have like a formal custody agreement we have a lot of conversations about like like if he's having certain problems that are related to like boy things like she'll talk to me she like hey can you have this conversation with him about like viewing this on the computer talking to people this way blah blah blah um so she does a really good job at like keeping me in the loop and then I do a good job at communic with her about that so yeah does she disagree with your choices now in terms of having an open marriage um like worrying about like hey I don't believe in this for my son no but we've never had that convers I imagine he'll just choose I don't think that we'll try to force I guess I've never had that conversation with her before I don't think she care she thinks I'm a little crazy I think she's a little crazy but like we live our lifestyles but like I don't know if I would never like impart on my son like Hey listen you want to grow up and be a high value man and juggle five women but like I'm not going to say anything that like I figure he'll discover and explod that on his own but he's also like 12 so you know I feel like that's about the age right your polyamorous I don't know when you're figuring yourself out and you know listen if you're a 12-year-old guy and you can manage multiple relationships in what is that sixth seventh grade go for it okay um but no I imagine there's like other stuff he's got going on developmentally that he's probably not fixated on you know joining the Mormon church and being polygamist or something yet so sure but yeah I mean I imagine when the conversations come up in the future we just talk about it and what about when you meet somebody else are you just upfront and say hey I have an open marriage or if if they reach out to you they already know the situation I try um I try at this stage of my life to be I try to be as upfront with everybody's possible because when you start like um lying about certain things or alisca things or masking things then can get very very very complicated very quickly so yeah like I like Molina's on like my Instagram we like talk publicly about each other there not like no there's no secret there that we're married or anything so I try to be like pretty open about all that grim and I contend over who we have on the podcast quite often and I know that you've at some point collaborated with Nick Fuentes who's a very controversial person now I want to know what your stance is on bringing certain people onto your platform and giving them exposure albeit you're you know contending with them and disagreeing with them and maybe raising really good points that uh go against what they're saying what do you think about giving them I would say another like a microphone it's very very very challenging Balancing Act but I'll tend to hear out most people with kind of like that open mind philosophy like come in talk to me and then I'm going to try to tell you why I think you're wrong while being as empathetic or understanding as possible the something unique that I provide that I think is really important to some of these alternative communities is I'm like the only person that is Progressive that like isn't unhinged and I think it's really good sometimes to show people like hey you can be Pro LGBT you can have like blue hair be in like weird relationships or whatever but I can be like a funny cool charismatic like we can have fun and chill and I can be like understanding of you and not be like super judgmental or try to cancel you and be horrible for a lot of people I think that seeing somebody like that on my side is really important because representation for progressives is absolutely dog right now on the internet so to some extent when I'm platforming other people that's a thing that I'm keeping in mind um there's a lot of those communities that I've interacted with who I'm like the first positive representation of like a left leaning person they've ever seen that's one thing the second thing is if I am platforming somebody like that I'm trying to make sure that everybody understands where I'm at like I'm not just having the person on to like laugh and giggle and like play games like generally like with fun there was a lot of debating a lot of arguing over different points um so hopefully one I can demonstrate to his audience that there are at least some arguments on the other side um and then two my audience can see the arguments I'm having and then they've got like more tools to like deal with that type of stuff in the future one thing I don't agree with is I don't like burying your head in the sand and pretending that some people aren't saying certain things you should be able to deal with a lot of those arguments without being like Oh my God my whole audience suddenly turned into Nazis because I think gone down that road so far that and I think platforms are finally starting to reverse course we got to this ridiculous world where like half the country is believing in things that you can't talk about on any social media platform can't talk about vaccine skepticism can't talk about um election um being stolen uh can't talk about like covid-19 uh theories or whatever I personally I think these things are harmful ideas I think they're bad but if half the country believes in them how are we not having conversations about them how is no problem is the algorithm where once you get on one of those topics the algorithm is so good that it just recommends more and more and more and they pile on top of each other and then you get more and more and more extreme because those are what's getting clicks that's what's keeping people on the platforms yeah but the goal easy to chop it off right there yeah but I mean the chopping the sharpening of the sword should be on the side of the people arguing against it right like if people are getting lost on like certain algorithms it happens on the left and the right where people get lost on certain algorithms um people on the left need to do a better job at providing better arguments in like a more entertaining way because I feel feel like people on the left are so like dogmatic and then they're so like condescending in their approach where it's like you either believe me or you're an immoral bigot and that's all I'm going to say to you and then on the right like all of their figures are like highly entertaining right the Tates are very entertaining Alex Jones is very entertaining uh like you've got like all these figures that and I think they spread harmful ideas but like I'm not going to lie and say they're not funny as how well they're doing it they're not like super entertaining and then on our side we just have like a bunch of like people that are basically like condescending and patronizing to you and it's like like it's just not a good look that's great point the way the foundational view that I have is essentially is that like we've like done like one of the most dangerous things in all of human history is we've said that like the most educated man in all of society has the exact same vote as like a homeless dude both of their opinions count for one vote in one election and if we're going to give citizens the ability to go down and equal to every other citizen decide to vote on a leader that they want if we're going to entrust the power into the people to run essentially choose like our elected officials how you not trust them to talk about like covid-19 that's insane to me yeah I don't disagree with you so what are your thoughts then on the Rogan and is it Peter hotz yeah debate what do you think about that I don't know if have you heard about that Graham I'm not familiar so Rogan had on RFK Junior recently and he was bringing up skepticism towards the vaccine and vaccine mandates and stuff like that and then Peter Hotes skepticism right skepticism or denying or whatever it may be yeah um Peter hot I'm not super familiar with the story Peter Hotes goes and he tweets him basically saying like oh like why are you spreading all of this I don't know think I saw some ofation disinformation or whatever and then Rogan said I would love to facilitate a debate between you two and then Rogan said I'll donate $100,000 if I can facilitate this debate on my podcast and then hot said oh Rogan that's what you spend on a weekend hunting with your boys like I know with the Spotify deal with this you have a bunch of money so 50 million is the the dollar amount that I'm willing to actually agree to which is absurd um and then basically everyone's now pitching in so you have like R like Twitter accounts that are like verified check mark people like I don't know maybe they're not even that credible or anything it was Mark Cuban who threw in like 100 Grand no Mark Cuban uh is like Rogan why would you ever platform you know what I'm talking about yeah why would you ever platform Markin came out with a good ass message what aamp of course RFK Jr because he's like very Pro vaccine mandate and stuff like that so anyways this whole debate's happening everyone's trying to raise funding to have this debate what do you think about that this a very big frustration that I have um when I have to argue against a lot of these people I have spent a lot of time reading research reading studies spending time on Wikipedia fig like I have learned so much uh because it's not my area of expertise right and all this research that I'm doing like all this every time like a new Conspiracy Theory comes out like I have to like do more reading and more research to get like a handle on like Immunology viruses like all this I wish that people in the academic world spent a little bit more time on public Outreach because I don't think that like the job should be left to people like me to do it I my all of my ability and bonuses and stats in life are on this kind of like rhetorical and argumentative side and I'm I'm pretty smart so I can do the research too but godamn like rather than me who's really good at debate trying to research my way up there why not take a guy that's really really well researched and then have him just like practice a little bit in terms of debate or conversation I've seen the hotz guy talk before and I don't think he would be the good choice for that RFK debate he seems pretty knowledgeable but he doesn't handle himself very well in conversations so I I wish that more academics would practice that Outreach because at the end of the day if whatever you're studying in Academia you know dies on the walls of your classroom what's the point of anything you're doing right you might believe all of this and can prove all of it but nobody in society does what value do you have to to anybody yeah that's very frustrating to me so you think the debate should happen I think the debate should happen but you need to find academics who are you think it shouldn't be hotz I I don't based on I've only seen a little i' probably watched like 30 minutes more arguing based on a little bit I've seen he doesn't seem like the kind of guy that can aggressively handle himself in a conf situation a lot of the times when you debate conservatives I've noticed that you debate them very aggressively do you think that it would in your favor if the end goal is to actually convert conservatives to having a more liberal perspective would be to debate more compassionately like you said how you know if you slander someone or you morally Grant stand on them and you call them a bigot that's not the best way of converting people towards your ideology do you think if you if you went into it with more compassion that it would actually yield better results yeah I think so it's funny that you asked me that question because the research must have been on relatively older videos because um my recent approach has been like very very very compassionate usually the push back I get from my audience are other people's that way too nice to conservatives like a lot of people call me like a Nazi or a fascist or whatever just because I'm I like try to be pretty empathetic and understanding when I'm arguing with conservatives and I tend to do a pretty good job at that but my relationship with people on the left is so adversarial that like a lot of people like oh you have no charity for people on the left you're so nice conservatives and blah blah blah so why do people on the left hate you there's something called the big oh another bias cogni bias something called the bigotry of small differences um if you're arguing with somebody that is ideologically very different than you there's not much they can say to actually like hurt or upset you right like if I'm talking to a conservative and they say like oh like you support the gay agenda and you're blah blah blah and like okay maybe um but if I'm disagreeing with a person the left their insults are like oh you're racist you're homophobic you're bigot it and it's like no um you feel a lot more strongly um attacked by insults that are coming from people that are more ideologically similar to you because there's you don't see yourself as the insults they're giving whereas like for a conservative I can understand a conservative saying that like oh you're like a cuck sjw blah blah blah and it's like yeah to you I probably am but like when personal L is saying like you're a horrible racist person that is like filled with hatred it's like I'm absolutely not so I think for people that are more ideologically similar to you you're more likely to fight with them I think this happens to conservatives and people on the left and what was it that helped you pivot from being more aggressive towards your adversaries to a more compassionate I think just strategy analysis over time like when I in 2016 when I started debating my whole kind of like shtick was that I was like the aggressive leftist debater that like no other person left was willing to do that um but just like over time as I talk to people as I communicate to people as I learn and understand more about people I I start to realize that like if I change somebody's mind to change somebody's mind I have to understand where they're coming from otherwise it's basically like I can come into your audience and I just basically on you and attack you so hard that like some members of the audience like think you did so bad that they kind of want to like abandon you or I can step in and be like listen I know where you're coming from like let's talk about this to this and that seems to be a more effective strategy overall to getting people do you feel like your blue hair helps or hurts you that's a really hard one I like I like to have a um I like to have a wide scope in terms of like what I present as and what I'm capable of so in some ways it hurts me because it puts me immediately on kind of like a back foot because like oh you're blue-haired blah blah blah blah blah but then like it's also funny to come on and be the blue-haired guy but like the other people are the ones like screaming and losing their mind and I'm like trying to be like rational reasonable whatever so there's like a there's a big like dissonance when somebody sees me and they're like oh this guy's probably going to come up and scream about how we're all racist or whatever but then like I'll come on and make edgy jokes and like be chill whatever and so I think it helps a little bit yeah I feel like a lot of people on the right could completely just ignore you because they see like the beard or whatever they see just the destiny like your own merch on your on your chest and the beard beard you know Jesus had a beard right theard can we cut theard I guess we could the beard is fine okay maybe the beard is the blue hair the blue hair maybe like you know the beard is Grimm pretty well okay I'm not I'm I'm get a St and piercing but but you know what I mean like if you presented yourself in a very professional way right rather than what a lot of people view the Liberals as do you think that it could help convert also more people from the right and it's also something different it differentiates you I feel like from a from just the stereotype that a lot of the the conservatives see and then that would be enough of a a shocker to hopefully give them some space in their brain where you can help them fill that with something there's of your IDE yeah there's a very delicate Balancing Act between like how much do I want to I don't want to say compromise but like how much do I want to change my demeanor about me to appeal to somebody else versus is what ground do I want to fight over and that's just like a subjective feeling like every time um like I can either say like I'm going to dress in a suit and time be very professional go talk to you um because I don't even want to try to convince you about appearance or anything or I can say actually appearance is one of the grounds that I do want to fight on I do want to convince you of that I should be able to talk to you you should be able to hear me and as long as I'm making good arguments and I'm having fun and everybody's like being chill or whatever even though I look a certain way it shouldn't be a bother to you and hopefully that like moves you a bit like it moves the needle a bit on like the appearance thing but at the end of the day it just comes down to Ultimate like what do you want to fight over you know see I feel like your appearance helps you with personal branding and online marketing it absolutely does for that cuz now so many people like oh my God you're the blue-hair guy on Tik Tok yeah exactly I've seen some of your um interviews on whatever stands out because of the hair BL hair but I feel like when debating with certain people they might dismiss you a little bit too quickly because of that maybe yeah why do you go on whatever I'm really good at going into other environments and like synergizing really well with with especially in hostile environment so I like going on whatever because their audience is like primed to hate me um but I can still go on have a good time get a whole new audience to view me in a positive light and then I like win fans in favor and it's a usually fun why do why do they hate you because we're ideologically completely different like I like I hate almost every single thing red pill people stand for um and they all tend to be like more like conservative or anti-establishment and Views so I'm like the exact opposite too what are the biggest things you guys Clash on though well the last time I was there two days ago was a debate on a so that was a but it was just me versus another set of people um other times so like red pill stuff basically everything my view of like red pill is basically like red pills hate women and then they try to tell you all the ways you can them over and that's like the entirety of like the red P ideology it's what it feels like to me that's not like the best steel man version of but that's that's how they frame it huh that's not how they frame no of course not the way that they frame it is through working on yourself yeah it's male empowerment to put yourself in an area where you have so much success and power that you're able to attract and Achieve whatever you want with whatever woman you want essentially so what is your advice for a young single guy out there if he wants to improve himself he wants to get better at dating the um oh it's such a complicated question this is like it's going to be this advice going to be so broad it's worthless but like my advice is you need to find warm spaces where you can have friendships and conversations with women that is the most important thing you can do if you have no women in your life at all and you're going to start trying to pick one up on like Tinder or pick one up publicly you don't even know how to talk to a woman like start with warm spaces where you can make friends with women learn how to talk and not be scared or afraid or whatever and then like even you meet women through women and you meet women in spes with women like from there you can kind of start to build out you know like yeah you're I guess like you're eventually hopefully to to get to dating or whatever um you can talk about like other things people are like talking about like money and looks and all that but um I mean like there's plenty of guys that that look really bad and don't have any money because they just like they put effort into it and they try to do it and there's plenty of guys with money that look really good that way less than people think so yeah what do you think of what is a woman I thought it was a really wellone film I think it's very convincing and watch the whole thing yeah and what did you think about Elon Musk pinning it as a tweet saying every parent should watch this Elon is the most cringe person in the Universe you don't think that every parent should watch it no why not what what did you disagree with of the documentary what is a woman the well I disagree with the whole point of the film obviously um I think that the funny thing is that I think that in a very roundabout way if you engage with it like intellectually the film makes a really good point but I think it makes the point in the opposite way that it thinks it does but I think if you just like watch it normally you're going to come away thinking like oh obviously a woman is like an adult human female wife like Matt Walsh's wife says in the end or whatever um without getting into all this cringe like theory of language stuff on a very very basic level language is very very very complicated the way that we use words is very complicated um I've argued with a friend for like two days about what the word Bas means okay language is very very very complicated um the way that I view language is typically when you say one word as soon as you say that word there's a bunch of peripheral things that kind of like light up next to that word and you can kind of like move through these peripheral things but to define a word exactly is very challenging so like for example we can take something very very very basic like a chair when I say chair a whole bunch of things come to mind immediately maybe the color brown maybe wood maybe four legs maybe a back there's a whole bunch of things but if I try to say like exactly what is a chair any and all of these things could theoretically be up for debate right like is a bean bag chair a chair um is a chair with three legs a chair obviously what about a chair with no back what's the difference between a chair and a table like that becomes very like for instance if I say chair and I say table there's a lot of the same Concepts L up right so broadly speaking that's how we view language I think and that's not a basic concept so when a conservative walks in like what is a woman like there's like some concrete definitive answer gender is very very very complicated and I think that the best answer on the show was actually given by Jordan Peterson because when Matt Walsh asked him what is a woman Jordan Peterson's answer is relatively insightful like I think he eventually he ends up um he says things like well maybe you'd have a better chance looking at temperament than like gender or temperament rather than gender and I think at the very end he says I don't think I don't even know if he knows it's as insightful as it was when he said it he said I think he said if you want to know what a woman is why don't you go out and marry one and find out or something which is actually How We Do explore language you go out into the world you associate concience with things and that's how it goes so in that sense sorry this a big ramble like the the film is interesting and that like Jordan Peterson does actually give way more nuanced responses than I would have thought but Matt Walsh just like nods his head and then at the end his wife gives like the best answer but um I just I I hate the topic because it brushes over so many really complicated aspects of how language and ontology and categories are used and constructed and how they exist just to try to like own trans people which I think is really dumb um I think you can be like Pro or against trans people but like at the very least like treat like language with the due respect it has but yeah that was a yeah it's a good answer yeah I actually think it makes a lot of sense what do you think about Jordan Peterson um Jordan Peterson is very smart and insightful when he talks about psychology and he's very stupid when he talks about anything besides psychology so when he's talking about like politics history social problems I just like it's the worst thing ever when he talks about psychology I think he's generally pretty insightful but he doesn't seem to do that as much anymore he seems like he's on the politics he Roots a lot of his political beliefs in Psychology maybe like he relates everything back to psychology yeah he tries to but like it's hard to stretch he makes yeah I don't know let's him talk about like the geez like he's even against like I think like adults doing like trans surg didn't he come out against um Elliot page I think yeah like he's an adult um yeah I don't know I Jordan pet apolog is very sad it's like listening to Elon Musk talking about anything besides like I guess like Aeronautics or startups or business or whatever like when Elon mus wants to talk about like Ai and politics and and it's like I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about I don't know why you think you should be talking about this but you but do you have any concerns about what Matt Walsh was bringing up in the documentary of like how we're making it like putting it in public school systems the the books that are being shown to children that are kind of not promoting but kind of like I mean in a sense showing them something that maybe like most parents wouldn't want their child to be seeing at a public school I think it's a really complicated question I think you need a lot of data to figure it out I think that trans stuff needs to be handled very delicately in a research medical setting and in a social setting and I don't think either side wants to handle it very delicately right now like the left is like way too overbearing with how they push it and they seem to refuse the acknowledgement that any amount of people could just be like non-binary or whatever because they friends are which is probably the case especially in college um and then people on the right are like I think they I don't even know if they think trans people exist anymore um or they just want to ban it completely or at least for all children um I think um I hate I hate giving like this like both sides need to come together in the middle it's not so much that it's like what what people the problem is like politically especially on LGBT stuff people always Define themselves as like the reaction to the other side so like on the left for a long time like conservatives like we don't want gay marriage you know like stop all this or whatever and so conservatives were very anti-lgbt everything and then progressiv start to win a little bit it's like okay you guys are an everything we're going to be like pushing this as hard as possible and so like now you know like even kids should have exes to transg and conservatives be like okay well now nobody should have it like this is horrible we've corrupted Society uh you know Michael n's like transgenderism is a new religion that needs to go away and and like everybody he's just like triggering the out of each other and not actually trying to figure out like what is like the most datadriven acceptable answer that we should have can we accurately identify a kid as who's trans if we can we should probably give a medication for it if we can't we should probably wait till they're a little bit older like that's should be like a pretty simple why do you think that the people are so fed up with or not fed up but like focused on the action of debate and being right versus actually trying to solve the problem do you think that these people think that what they're doing is right or do you think that they know they probably think what they're doing is right so you think that they think they're acting in good facei yeah but the problem is generally people are people fight from ideological platforms and the individual policy issues are just like vectors for them to spread their ideology like that's literally it but they identify with like a whole thing so they can never change any of those individual opinions like for instance somebody tells me that he's an Andrew tape fan I also know that 99% likely he's antia 99% likely he thinks that the prior election was stolen 99% likely he thinks that like Bill Gates and the world economic forum and clous Schwab are trying to control um probably doesn't think climate change anthropomorphic climate is real probably supports Donald Trump like I know all these beliefs at a person I can't change their mind on any of those beliefs because they're bought into an entire system that mandates strict adherence to every single one of those things and and to be fair it's similar on the left too with like a collection of beliefs as well but like that so when any particular issue comes up like I need to find out like if I talk to somebody for instance and I'm like oh like I think that like I think we should mandate vaccines for children at school like for a person that's really roped into that Echo chamber to that epistemic bubble that statement that I just made that's an attack on their entire ideology everything is tied to everything else there is no way that they can change their mind on one thing because it's like a ball of yarn if you unravel even a little bit of it it'll all come apart completely because everything relies on everything else the vaccine has to be corrupt because fouchy and the FDA are absolutely bought off because the entire establishment is completely rigged and that's why the election was absolutely stolen for Donald Trump and that's why the world economic forum and all the people that hate him publicly and on the world stage are all against him because on like all of it is like tied together and if one thing comes undone then everything falls apart so so do you think that a big problem nowadays is that people identify with their perspectives or ideologies or belief systems that they take that in as a part of their identity and as soon as the like it starts being attacked in any shape form like they they just completely implode yeah and and the and the groups have gotten so big because of the internet too like my guess is going to be it's probably okay to have these ideological divisions and groups if they're happening at like really small levels that's probably okay but when they start to Encompass like hundreds of millions of people then they become so Broad and they Encompass so many different ideas and beliefs that it becomes impossible to it's just not healthy for Society at that stage I think that's really interesting makes sense so what are your I mean I guess I can figure out assume your your thoughts on Andrew Tate uh he's very funny I feel like i' have a lot of fun chatting with him um you want to chat with him absolutely yeah um I also think he's a sex trafficker absolutely unless he's lied about the things that he said if everything he said is true on his YouTube videos and everything then um but then he's also said that what he said he was exaggerating it's not true um well he said that after he's gotten contct after he's gotten investigate and everything but like he's laid out very specific instructions on how to traffic women How to lure women in how to cheat on their taxes how to get them to work for you proven no this proven no no no sorry proven to be uh like good methods of doing that yeah gives he it's like standard pimping 101 like everything he says like very very standard like he even uses some of the terminology like he'll talk about like bringing a new woman he'll bring in another woman that he's been for a long time his bottom he says these terms he'll get that woman to convince the new woman to do like kind of like sex work without him actually saying anything so that those two will go off and he'll have his bottom convince her to get into the trp blah blah blah like he like using these terms using these words he's explaining all of this yeah and then he's even talked about like oh yeah like when I'm doing taxes with these women I'm supposed to pay them I think he says 5050 I think he might 5050 but then he says but he'll steal like 20% on the taxes because women are too stupid in these traits to do taxes and sometimes if like if the woman says like well hold on how much am I paying he'll like print out some fake tax perms and give it to them and they're like oh okay I trust you and he'll like have them sign fake and do it like he's talked in detail all of that now it could all just be fake and he's like lying and exaggerating it all but if it is true it's obviously sex trafficking but yeah but I'll rest it on contingent yeah you have said quite a few things that were really interesting because I see all the people or not all the people I shouldn't generalize like that but a vast majority of the people on the left are like 100% he's guilty I know know he is and if he doesn't go to jail the system's rigged but I did hear you say that hey I'm not going to really comment until I wait for the uh for the actual verdict of the trial uh but what you just said is not what I expected you to say based off of what I had seen you say online I think generally people jump to the conclusions way too much absolutely anything is is offered they automatically guilty otherwise why would they even do this I think you got to wait you got to see until all the facts come out I'm curious what you've seen cuz I try really hard to qualify that I I just watched it like like I was I was eating lunch today and I I heard you say like yeah you know I I say what I always say you got to wait for the verdict on the trial oh okay I thought you were saying I said the opposite okay got you got yeah yeah the um but you just said that you thought he was 100% guilty if if what he says is true but that's that's why the trial is important right yeah one um this is strategy that I tell people sometimes to help you change ideas is don't ever make an idea part of yourself unless you know 100% to be true always qualify what you're saying so you can get away from something if it ends up being incorrect so for instance on the andw stuff I don't know 100% I'm honest about that now if I were to stake a whole bunch on like he's absolutely guilty I know it blah blah blah well if the court case if the trial commences and either the prosecution doesn't have enough evidence or maybe the fact maybe he didn't do any of that things um and then the trial ends well now I'm in a really uncomfortable spot because I tied a lot of my stake a lot of conviction on this idea I didn't qualify it at all and now I either have to come out and say I was completely wrong which undermines my character a lot or what's more likely to happen is oh the trial was rigged right and this is what's going to happen with all the protate people or the anti-ap people depending on how the trial goes right no matter what happens one side is going to say oh was clearly rigged because they're so bought into the narrative that either all of the charges are fake and drummed up or that he's 100% of trafficker who's raped like multiple women but if you qualify things you're careful so like I've said this over and over and over again um he should go to court they sh have the day in court if what he said is true he's definitely a trafficker but maybe he exaggerated it if they go to court and it find and they find out that they play the videos they do the research and a lot of it was actually just exaggerated or drummed up and they didn't actually know the things then it's very easy for me to point back like Oh Hey listen I said if they made it up then it's obvious not true so yeah he's not a trafficker and I can get off of that very very easily so it saves me the ability of having strong conviction on ideas that I don't know about and it saves my credibility and my character and my self-respect because I didn't like have to like either backtrack or just double down on some yeah I think that's super smart and I also think that it's a huge problem when people identify or they turn their belief system into their identity identity yeah yeah it's just it just closes your mind entirely mhm yeah because then an attack yeah I'm a person that supports capitalism I'm not like a capitalist I am a capitalist but like if you show me something better um I I like capitalism because I think it does a lot of things really efficiently but if you show me it doesn't well then capitalism have personal attachment exct but for if you have the more personal attachment to your ideas then when somebody attacks them they're not attacking the ideas they're attacking your character and that's not up your people don't realize your character is never Up For Debate nobody's going to come up to a debate and be like okay I might be a bad person who's really stupid that's never going to happen so if you've internalized these ideas so much that means that anytime somebody attacks them it's a personal attack and now you're fighting for your life in a conversation CU you don't want to be wrong or stupid which is bad so what's your biggest insecurity I don't have any insecurities you don't have a single one no yes you do you don't have a single insec be something man I don't know man I feel like insecurities are what kind of make us human in a sense I'm inhuman man I grew up like relentlessly independent I mean like I've got a lot to I can make I had my dick pix Le I was streaming like two days later I mean I'm a pretty secure person there's nothing you're insecure about so how how have you been able to compat insecurity or was there a period of time in your life just because of like my the way that I grew up like I've always been like highly internally driven so if I'm doing something that's not good or that I don't like I try to analyze and change it and I'll move from there um but like like the way that I view it is there's like a person that I want to be there's an idealized version of myself and I hope that I'm taking steps towards that all the time and if I'm not then I'm trying to change the path that I'm on but um I mean like in terms of insecurity I guess if I do like really bad in a debate or something like that sucks I would feel bad about that but um I'm probably scared of heights if I go skydiving that probably what's worrying you today what are you most worried about what am I most worried about today um I I don't know I guess probably like managing my career going forward I'm like at a very interesting Crossroads where I'm trying to figure out like how much of like do I want to be like I don't know all the time like what my role needs to be that's like something I've thought about a lot and I'm thinking about a lot over like the past week or whatever I'm trying done here is I don't know sometimes like figuring out like how to deal with people that are fighting with you online figuring out like what kind of Engagement should I have with people like how respectful how disrespectful um how staunchly should I advocate for my ideals like should I be putting more time into like research for doing like intellectual debates um should I be like trying to expand my audience more um am I working too hard am I not working hard enough like I don't know there's like a lot of stuff like that in terms like balancing career stuff probably I'm sure you guys well yeah from earlier today yeah you guys have these things to yeah that's probably like the thing I'm I don't know if I say I'm worried about it but there's just like a lot of challenges that always come up relating to that kind of stuff where do you want to be in five years from now I really want a Media Company um I got all the to set up a Studio I bought like all the cameras all the equipment whatever I've got it like laid out I to set it up and start recording um I feel like once I have a podcast I can kind of grow out from there but like having a media company I think would be the coolest thing in the world like I hate talking about what everybody else is talking about it's fun sometimes to like decide like this is what we're going to talk about today and then set like the discourse for stuff so that would be like my dream I think you'd have a crazy podcast maybe yeah hopefully yeah that would be really good I'd love to see that so for the Media Company would you just like to be like a daily wire I think the daily wire is the best template is really good they've got a lot of talent they do a lot with them making films yeah they do tented people yeah and it's very concise the way that they work together and everything yeah good good on Benny boy and everybody yeah they do they run a tight ship so who would you like to have on are there any other streamers that we might know that you would love to say like hey we'd love for you to join this media company I don't even know how I begin to pick talent I I feel like the way that it would work is I would probably start my show and then I would just kind of start looking at other people and see if anybody but like the first thing I have to do is I got to start my and then I'll can probably go from there do it yeah I think that'd be fantastic what do you think is the biggest threat to humanity climate change um it's funny that's that was my answer what is the biggest threat to humanity um on a very broad sense I think the splitting of us into these different epistemic worlds where we have totally different realities is like destroying our ability to communicate with each other and I worry if that continues to happen and continues to accelerate outwards that um I don't know if it would be civil war or just like a total breakdown in government because we can't pass any legislation uh I think that that's probably the biggest threat right now uh what is it a nation divided against itself cannot stand um we have a really hard time working with each other right now that's really really really bad and I think that's probably the biggest problem facing us like when I look at the United States during CO as soon as the United States got its together in my opinion I think one of the biggest success stories of like capitalism and American engineer I know a lot of people get triggered but I think it was the manufacturing of the Mna viruses it represented like the best of humanity the best of globalism the best of the world it was fizer an American International Company working with biion tech German company that researching for public research and private research Mr vaccin for 30 years once we figured out like what was going in like eight months we had like a revolutionary vaccine rolled out we distributed what Biden I think came in and wanted to do like 100 million doses in a 100 days or something and he did it in like 50 like everything was so amazing when America is like United on an issue we have the capability to like move heaven and earth like I think the United States working as one joint body trying to accomplish something can do anything but we're so schizophrenic on all of our right now that we just can't come together and agree on on anything because every single issue is so politicized so yeah I think that's I think the the divisions we have amongst ourselves are the biggest problem that we have right now yeah it's a great answer that's probably one of the best answers I yeah I I I agree with that I'm kind of of the same type I I think it's just closed mind in general sure CU I used to say it was the media and then I thought it was Clos mindedness and then you think like what causes CL closed-mindedness you try to come to the root of it but I think it's just being close-minded I love that um what do you think is the meaning of life um H this another I've been working with a lot um I think that there is some sense of fulfillment to be found by working together along other side along other people um at the things that you're really good at um so everybody has like a particular set of like gifts and abilities I think that we kind of owe it to ourselves in society to pursue this as much as possible and then while doing that like maximize your existence like a social creature so family friends and all that stuff it's like very very very broad but that might look differently for a lot of people so say you're a person that's like a really high aptitude for medicine like for you like your fulfillment and meaning in life might be you know being the best doctor you can be giving as much to society as you can getting that like high level of personal fulfillment because you're doing something for yourself you're doing something for other people um hopefully you got have a family stuff too um you might be a musician they can make like really cool music you might be a streamer I guess it do really cool streaming or whatever but um yeah I think that like searching for some like really broad sense of like fulfillment um and then trying to balance it out with also a sense of like happiness right where fulfillment is like that really deep like I'm doing things that are above and beyond myself or Society but also doing the things like keep me happy and like motivated whatever like finding a balance between that and then working social with everybody else is like on the broadest level I think probably the meaning of what you should be trying to do and how filled are you like if you were to given on 1 to 10 scale how's how's everything going for super lucky I'm like at a 9 .5 for fulfillment like I get to do like the coolest stuff like every single day in my life like I'm the most lucky person in the world so yeah as an influencer how responsible are you for the actions of your viewers beliefs of your viewers and your thoughts and your impact on your viewers how much do you take this into consideration when going live SL voicing your opinion uh I think you have a high level of responsibility people might disagree on the level of responsibility you have but at the very least I wish that people would acknowledge that you have a big imp on your audience if I go out and I say a certain thing for a long period of time my audience is slowly going to start to believe that and depending on the opinion there going to be certain obvious answer actions that stem from those beliefs so if I go on stream every single day and I say I hate kids we need to kill our kids I hate children blah blah blah blah blah if like you know 5 years from now people in my audience are to like abuse children or like attack children whatever like it's pretty immediately Downstream from the things that I'm saying so I think that I think that you like when uh parents used to say you are who you hang around right or garbage in garbage out ultimately oh I've also heard that like you are your five best friends like the summation of their thoughts or whatever um if I'm talking to people for 8 hours a day if I'm speaking a lot I'm doing a lot the things that I'm saying I know that slowly I'm going to change their mind over time and they're slowly going to believe me if they or they're going to start to think things I think so actions are reasonably going to stem from those particular thoughts as well so I would hope that the messages that I'm putting out are encouraging actions that I want I want people to take um and then yeah you ultimately I think you're responsible for that now there's some limitations there if you've got like an audience of like 10 million and one guy goes out and you know randomly shoots up a school and you're like a makeup streamer like you're probably not responsible for that but if I'm telling people over and over again like the government's coming to take your guns you know you got to be ready to fight we got to fight to to keep our guns we got to fight for this like we can't let blah blah blah like blah blah blah and like you know some number my audience start you know like shoots up like a police department or like shoots up like a congress for a guy that's going to vote on like anti-gun legislation I mean like you're kind of like at the end of the day like a lot of those thoughts might be Downstream for the that I'm saying so I try to be careful of that thank you so much for coming on the ice coffee art really means a lot uh yeah it was just like a really surreal experience to to meet you in real life cool it's been fun yeah I loved it thank you so much we'll link to all of your information Down Below in the description cool