Meet The $200,000,000 Man Who QUIT EVERYTHING | Noah Kagan

I'm Noah Kagan and welcome back to the iced coffee hour with Jack and Graham and I think your show in the past 100 episodes have done about a quarter million dollars that's really good that's a fantastic guess 214 535 videos that was pretty good yeah not the not the closest but reasonable so okay well thank you so much for coming on Jack has actually prepared his own intro for this yeah we're gonna start this off guns of Blazing okay idlenetworth.com says you're worth 190 billion oh yeah with a billion dollars okay techie gamer says you're worth 45 million with an m and digital net worth says you're worth three million ouch yeah can you clear up all of this confusion because we have these websites that say people are worth these amounts they have no idea what they're talking about or do they yeah I think what's interesting about net worth is there's different types of entrepreneurs so there's cash worth entrees like how much cash do you actually have in the bank how much liquid money and so I think my personal bank has like 1.5 million cash right now and I can show it we can show you guys having a problem uh but the net worth is is challenging on the other side of that is if you have a company you have Equity so we have appsumo.com um this year we'll do about 100 to 120 million so how much is that company worth quarter billion billion and then I own about 60 ballpark net worth I looked at mostly from cash I actually don't look at the equity probably somewhere around 25 million 25 million not bad not bad at all not too shabby yeah not include Equity of appsumo got it not including the equity of appsumo and not including mortgages yeah when I do my net worth how much is my house worth how much is my mortgage and you just assume the company could be worth nothing and anything extra a bonus I take it yeah smart way to think about it yeah yeah you can't pay bills with effort well you're clearly doing extremely well let's go through your story and figure out how you got to this point and then we can talk about that 25 million dollar net worth what's that's comprised of and everything yeah in a bit sure where do you want to start well first of all I love your videos where you go up to people's houses just random people knock on their door and say how did you make a million dollars and it seems like from those videos you've always been an entrepreneur has that always been the case since the very beginning um yeah yeah I was always trying to like finagle you know yeah I don't know like go to Costco and buy the candy bars and take them to school and try to Arbitrage on them you did that yeah you're one of those kids it's kind of done that like it's just like intrinsically in me like I've Loved money yeah and now I'm just trying to enjoy it which is actually kind of a hard thing really when you make it it's fun to make but then actually spend it and enjoy it as a it's a process yeah that's interesting how much were you making selling candy because kids in my school would get in trouble for doing that I never understood that they'd come and like you'd buy a Snickers bar for two dollars that they bought for like a dollar I thought it was a good business they were helping everyone out like they took initiative and they were the ones like getting their candy taken away or like you know called their parents and be like no they're selling candy illegally it's like what's that well it's kind of interesting thing about what's the best way to parent like I don't have any kids yet or anything like that but like how do you encourage people on your team or kids to actually go and like push the boundaries and like break rules yeah because a lot of what we're taught is like how to follow so it's like how do you untrain or unlearn those things so uh how much I make selling candy I don't know not a lot okay the first one I started making was in college so when I started first just like starting as many businesses I could what type of businesses did you start in college um I started called comegetused.com what uh it's a book exchange for used books yeah some get used I'm thinking like okay different ways okay sure I just I was just like starting a lot of things and it was so cheap cheap to start so I started a site called everspeed.com I still have it it's an import car model website okay so like I just like to import cars and then like these hot models um I did a site called collegeup.org which is Craigslist for college students uh did ninjacar.com discount card for students so I basically was just like starting as many different businesses as I thought was like interesting were you a good student yeah yeah I went to Berkeley um I don't know how I got in yeah I think I'm like I'm I've always thought of myself as like a b-plus or a minus like I'm doing just enough to get the good grade but I don't have to do all the work you finagled finagled yeah yeah you got your way in there um but yeah actually until my senior year I didn't realize I could like not go to class and still get good grades interesting and then what about after college didn't you finagle your way into a pretty big company now uh yeah so yeah interesting thing was in college I didn't know how people figured out what to do for a living like how did you guys figure out your careers I just kind of fell in for me it was real estate but I just knew I wanted to do something for myself yeah yeah I was just in love with YouTube growing up I watched it a ton yeah so my whole generation did and that was like the dream I didn't think I would ever be in the space but it was the dream and somehow it just kind of it happened Jack sent me seven emails in a row yeah without without me or seven seven without a response hey I want to come work for you it was over like the course of like four months yeah yeah four to five months since like emails dude I really should yeah it worked though right what made you keep going um I it's I just wanted it I don't know like I was at this point where I tried so many different careers right careers I was doing like Drop Shipping I created all these different ideas these plans with my friends all these businesses nothing was stock trading too stock trading I did penny stocks like everything nothing worked and this I haven't tried it yet and I continually wanted it and I persisted and I just kept going and then he gave me some tasks and I worked as hard as I could at it so yeah I think it's faster than fun things we don't quit on like what are the things you're just like I'm gonna keep going forever yeah it's it's a different kind of want right like you can want things like oh I want to make money doing penny stock trading or whatever but maybe you don't really want it you're attracted to something else like the money you could get from it but with this it's like it's like it's a it's a dream to not necessarily make money from YouTube but to do YouTube and to like be a in production and stuff like that so I guess I want it for different reasons and I wanted it more good for you man so thank you yeah I wonder what what's the difference between you and most other people that like have a dream of being a YouTuber or dream of being a real estate or dream of being in Tech or whatever it is and then like the reality of like oh [ __ ] this is actually kind of hard yeah so that's something that I think people think about like when I was encouraged people was like what are you waking up and doing for free and then how do you make that your career yeah so for me it's like I've been blogging and I feel like a dinosaur saying I've been blogging since 2000. like okay dork.com my blog it's like been there since the beginning of the internet but like it's been there for a while I love creating content and um like what I do at appsuma.com I promote we promote products like I just go and find cool products we get a deal and we like deals and then we just promote them and then somehow we make money doing that yeah so yeah just all along I think I think it's really interesting to find the persistence like our domain name sumo.com it was seven years to get that name seven years to get your domain get the domain yeah we're taking appsumo we own sumo.com as well wow a million and a half dollars how'd you get that one and a half million dollars yeah yeah okay uh well first I found out who it was it was like one of the not the wealthiest but a wealthy person in India he owns a Hindustan times the third largest newspaper in India okay and then I basically called emailed message slacked they didn't select Skyped for seven years and then finally it was like all right well how do I make an amount where they're just gonna be like okay we have to take this offer and so at a million and a half dollars and I structured it interestingly where I give them half a million up front and then the other million was over five years so we're still paying it off sixteen thousand dollars how important was that to get sumo.com because I feel like now for domain names it's not that important I regret it really yeah yeah I'd rather have a million and a half dollars but you can't live in a domain name you can live in a house right that's true um so yeah but I think it's interesting what do we persist on like what are you like continually like keep you're like all right I'm just gonna go that's some good advice find what you do well that's why I feel like people need work experience so you're talking about like how do people in college know what they want to do but it's difficult going from high school where you're told what to do in what order and like get this task done into college where it's like more of the same but kind of like on your own a little bit more more without that work experience in between I think people should have mandatory two years you gotta get a job anything yeah I would love that what kind of drone anything but just like hey you got to work you got to get two years work experience you can figure out whatever you want to do I think within those two years you'll you'll find out very quickly what sort of career you want to go into or like what you maybe gravitate more towards than something else yeah I think his kids like it's not kids but if you're in like you're 20 I'm 40 like sound like a dinosaur with this internet right I've been doing it for a while and but I think is when you're young it's like start a podcast put yourself out there go find interesting people to be uh be around like when I was in my 20s I worked at Intel I had no Advantage I don't have a network I didn't have like any audience or any sort but I just started hosting things I have a thing called uh Community next entrepreneur 27 it was just like events it was just like bringing people together and like that is how it I built up a network where like Tim Ferriss and I are talking or ramit Sethi was famous and like Peter Thiel like Peter's from Facebook but like Max levchen James Hong from hot around so all these people was just like all right how do I be around people to see like what's the buffet of business that I like who can I be around and then how can I say that to figure out my career yeah because I was like I think my 20s it was just like a lot of different like trying to find out who I am didn't get a what John did he get right outside of uh uh my first job out of college was at Intel okay and so that sucked that was horrible how long are you making yeah uh my first paying job was 50 000 a year with health benefits 2004. so it was a pretty solid like salary that was pretty good I lived in my mom's house so I was like before now it's like a cool thing now like you guys generation loves living in your parents house it's like that's Frugal yeah dude you're saving money I didn't really start renting until I was 30. right so I lived on floors for a year okay uh when I was making a hundred thousand uh I just like lived in my aunt's basement like I was just trying to live as cheap as possible so I could do what I really wanted nice um but yeah so Intel not doing [ __ ] but running all these companies trying to do events and trying to network and blog and um that and I just cold emailed Facebook uh my resume yeah and I was like this if I'm gonna go start a company but if there's one company to go work at this is one I'm really excited about and so I always think that for especially people earlier in the crew it's like what are you already doing all day like what are you working on like are you on Tick Tock all day like you're watching YouTube um try to find a job doing the thing you already so for me it was like at that time Facebook was so cool I was like oh maybe I can try to get a job here or I'm just going to start my own company what year was that 2005. wow at the very beginning yeah super early so like Dustin's there Mark's obviously there Peter Teal's around Sean Parker yeah oh my gosh uh it was insane so yes I'm in my resume I think one of the things when you're applying for jobs that uh the bar is so low everyone sucks so much like the bar's just so low to be excellent nowadays you really don't have to do anything like you can do so little uh so for me like I brought mock-ups of Facebook I'm like okay here's your site here's what I think you should do about all these examples of work I was doing and even today like when people were playing jobs at appsumo I'm like did you make a website did you do anything creative did you follow like no one follows up just do a follow-up even yeah what did you study at Berkeley so I did CS for two years and then I dropped out because I wasn't smart enough I was like in these classes and I was like I could probably do a better job managing these people right so let me go and like figure out just understand it enough then I ended up majoring in like business economics but a lot of the companies that you're running while in college like you said you had like seven or so of them they that that would require to create those companies because they're all digital like some CS knowledge you did that yeah I would just hack it was just super hacky I mean I would hack like WordPress or hack PHP yeah also did any of those businesses that you ran in college did they go anywhere or were they profitable at the time um so one of the ones I think it's trying to look for like what's the like what's the market inefficiency so if you're doing like advertising like where is the market that no one else is advertising on like tick tock it's pretty early yeah and people are starting to do it so I think that's an advantage for me I was a senior and there's all these freshmen there I was like huh there's at least freshmen I want internships and jobs so maybe I could actually just like hire them for cheap and then go to local stores and be like hey we'll do your marketing to the college and I use these like you know freshmen so that actually made a few thousand but and when I think about businesses like you just got to be in the ocean you got to be in the game right you got to be on the surfboard in the ocean and so for me by doing that that led to us creating ninja card and ninja card was just like one of the guys named Kenny was like hey why don't we do a discount card instead of like going and pitching these businesses we have a discount card um and so because we were already active doing that we led to the discount card and that ended up doing 50 000 the first year what was the process like for interviewing at Facebook it's a bit of my resume cold yeah so I just saw like on the job description sent in the resume uh had one recruiter phone call second recruiter phone call and then I came into the office uh the interview there was with Dustin Moskowitz founder of Asana co-founder of Facebook uh my boss Doug Hirsch cook founder of GoodRx and then one or two people and it was just showing mock-ups talking about Facebook like what do you want to work on it was just like hey you're gonna be a product manager I don't still don't know what that means we have a few at appsumo yeah I'm like what do you guys do here but they're great and then they're like you want to come build products at Facebook there wasn't much more to that it was just like chatted with them showed what I already did I think one of the things when you're hiring someone it's what is your confidence level of How likely they're gonna be able to do the job so by showing mock-ups by showing I've already built a lot of college businesses by showing like I'm very active doing this stuff the confidence for them is like all right well you can come and build stuff at the website yeah how is your pay back then with Facebook because I I take it then they didn't have that much money no yeah no it wasn't profitable um I think they were just closing series a with Excel uh two things were really interesting about that they offered me they're like do you want 60 000 and more Equity or 65 000 less Equity I was like I don't even want to pay I just want Equity like I would have worked for free in just more Equity because I was like this is going to be gigantic what was that evaluation um at that time it was about they raised 20 on 100 so around 100 million dollars give or take yeah wow holy cow so it was pretty and then what was really crazy there's some a lot of crazy moments about working there first crazy moment was like my first day on the job I walk in and uh Doug Hirsch who's my boss is walking out and I'm like hey is there orientation like what happens like I was just at Intel where it's like sexual harassment training and like this training get this trading I walk in and Doug walks out and then Mark comes up to me like I just fired your boss today grab a laptop get a desk I'll see you in a bit now it's day one so that was pretty well why do you get fired um he wanted to sell so the other part that was interesting is Mark anything about you guys are how old are you guys 232 32 yeah 23 looking good thank you good 23. and moisturize okay if there's one thing people take away from this episode you know dude you know I talk about sunblock and moisturizer and collagen pills you might want to start what's collagen collagen is supposedly it's debatable if it really works but it's a pill that supposedly helps with the skin restoration you guys do both look really young dude by the way and every day are you getting facials oh every quarter really sure every quarter dude what do you think is that I don't know it's like girls are doing this stuff and guys now it's not to not be manly or not it's like if I can look good and not have to do that much work to get there then I'm going to do it officially they come in and they just put all this crap on your face they massage your face and then like they peel it feels incredible by the way okay it was that day that uh you missed out on where I took everyone for massages and facials and uh that was I've never had that done before it was incredible once a quarter yeah yeah it was expensive how good is it how much is it worth to look good Priceless it was great yeah so but anyways the point I was making earlier what would I give more credit for and he is very gifted and I've worked like I've got to meet Bill Gates I've got to meet Steve Jobs I've got to meet some of these like Titans he came that I think that day or a few days later and he was like I could sell the company right now for a billion dollars now imagine for you 24 and you haven't offered you have the opportunity to make like 600 700 million dollars cash and he's like I'm not selling he was 24. yeah and I was just like dude that is some big balls that's some real big conviction and I think in business law it's like where's your conviction and I admired his conviction and I think as a as an employee there I was just like this guy's serious and that was inspiring he's like I want to take over the world I want to connect the world I think what we're doing is like like some money let's see how far we can go that was amazing how long did you work there for I worked there for about a pregnancy so nine months okay and then I got I got fired what happened and what happened to your Equity ah man I definitely uh I would have liked it I didn't invest so how it works in Silicon Valley is that and this happens this is how we do it at sumo.com as well is you get Equity let's say some percent and you get your percent over four years but you don't get the first quarter of it until after a year it's called a cliff so this is like very standard like tech company terms now some of them are doing like five or six year terms which is interesting so I had to stay there for a year to actually get the first quarter of it and at the time I had point one percent of the company so whatever the company's worth now I'd have 0.1 so that's where I think the 190 million it's not billion uh comes from wow uh so I got fired nine months and then I tried to fight for it I went to um a few of the different people and I was like I didn't fight aggressively because part of me also thought like I didn't really earn it because I wasn't there for a year yeah but I worked like that's all I didn't do anything else it's probably how you are with Graham and this stuff like I didn't do anything but Facebook I lived with Facebook people like that's all we did was work at Facebook how'd you get fired um numerous different reasons and it's interesting now being on the other side of the table where I've you know unfortunately let go of people and I've hired a bunch of people um I think when in the beginning I got promoted I even got raises because I was excellent in the chaos and I was excellent when it's like hey there's 30 people just figure stuff out and I wasn't I didn't want to nor was I skilled enough to scale with the business like they got to we it was about 150 people so 5x growth uh I was number 30 and at 150. and so I there's people at app similar that are growing with our company from when it was four million to now hopefully this year will do 100 million plus and some people are able to scale really well and some are not so I think that was number one number two kind of what you were saying your dream was To Be Your Own Boss my dream is to be my own boss and you can't fight that reality and so I think what a lot of people should do is document their moments talking I think being Gordon calls it artifacts document where you're at in your journey where you're at now and what's your fantasy and my fantasy like I've looked at my old journals it was like Be Your Own Boss I can't believe I have to go to the [ __ ] meetings I hate these meetings and it's like huh so as much as disappointed I knew I had a dream of something else uh and third I I thought the company could do better press and so I did I put out some press early I was at Coachella which I've never gone back but I was at Coachella I hit up TechCrunch and I was like Hey we're launching this new feature um I think you should write about it because we weren't doing any press and I thought I was like doing a good thing for the company they launched it early I told the executive team and then I think that triggered kind of the final goodbye wow got it okay working hand in hand with Mark Zuckerberg what are some good like employer fundamentals or principles that you learned that most people on that level should be implementing or smaller levels there's a lot I think number one is have a singular goal you're going towards and we've implemented our company over the past 12 years and even my previous companies so it's like what is your singular one goal in the business is it subscribers is it revenue is it a number of customers whatever that is and just have that singular and have the company be very clear what that is uh for our Channel and I don't know for you but uh at absolute.com it's 120 million gmv is our goal for this year that's it one goal and so Mark was very clearly singular focused on one number and I just thought that made it very helpful about decisions it's like does it help us get there or not so that was one thing that was just like exceptional second thing his vision was just really big sounds like a pink thing but like he just had like a huge Vision he was like weird think about this it was like very small mysus is bigger than us at the time but from a leadership perspective he was like we are going to connect the entire world and we're gonna be a tool booth for the whole internet imagine like some 24 year old telling you like a giant Vision like that that was impressive you know versus someone that's like hey you know I'm gonna try to make 100 bucks a month right and so I thought that was that was amazing for him to think so much bigger and I'd say lastly um I've only started doing it more later in my career as a leader at appsumo which is how are you really surrounding yourself with great people and I think we hear this [ __ ] but until you're around Excellence you're like dude and he had Excellence like our support people were phds from Harvard so that level of like impressiveness like Aaron siddick he designed like Napster uh Sean Parker I mean these guys are like Top Notch the guys who created quora like it's a lot of really impressive and that was like him being able to surround himself with that was really impressive now why do you think Myspace failed because I remember Myspace being so much bigger than Facebook looking at Facebook and I like Myspace because I could customize it took me a while probably until 2006 or seven until I really started going on Facebook where do you think Myspace went wrong do you think Tick Tock can fail uh they'd have to really screw up I thought their fault yeah it would they would really have to mess up I think Snapchat when they did the redesign I moved over to Instagram within 24 hours I just completely abandoned my Snapchat when they did that first redesign I think it was 2017. I left yeah it's interesting to think about um why people are finicky or why people move and leave things and then like what can you learn so like at appsumo we're starting to study we haven't done a deeper dive but like why did Groupon stop working because like our business was kind of similar like we're Groupon for software and so it's like well what happened there like now Groupon's like all nail salons and like things like that uh at the time with Myspace I think what what the difference was that they were run by a corporate company so they got bought by intermix uh Mark was running he's basically dictator and he's like we are going to do whatever it takes to grow and then I think with Myspace because they're owned by a company was like how do we make money and so a lot of their decisions are like how do we do ads and remember myself Marx was like how do we get as many people as possible using the site so it's just a focus I missed the Poke feature on Facebook that was so fun I don't even know I think I I don't know if yeah if Jack doesn't know what it is I mean it's gone I never used Facebook though so yeah absolutely gave up an error that wasn't I wasn't allowed to have it growing up so what were you allowed to have uh Myspace DS Pokemon oh wow yeah dude that's crazy but Facebook used to have a feature where you could poke each other okay and it would just be a little nudge like a little like and it would show on the side of the screen to just be like uh you know Jack poked you it's just you poke back it's like a little acknowledgment of like hey thinking about it so it's like a message like hey but there's no text there's no Emojis it just shows that they poked you and then what you do is poke them back you have to be online to receive the Poke or can you not you can't poke people that are offline yeah and then just shows up when uh you log back on oh the cool thing though is when we worked there back in the day you could see everyone who viewed your profile so you could do poking and all this kind of stuff and then see you actually come and seize that there's some really interesting things about when you work at Tick Tock or YouTube or I think now with privacy stuff it's probably more restricted what's something that you learned uh for the employer employee relationship from Mark was he friends with a lot of his employees was he distant was he not emotional with them like like that whole higher slow fire quick thing oh that's interesting um I think one of the things that Mark did that I've really admired in terms of relationship is like what's what's your standard like what is the standard you're setting of Excellence at the company and I remember we'd work on things like I help both Facebook mobile I helped build Facebook ads I helped Facebook status and we would work on something for like a month and then show it to him he's like I don't think it's good enough here's what I would think you should change on it and you're just like when he was right yeah you spent all that time on it yeah and it was just impressive to have someone around you that's just like expecting a lot more and expecting better what if he's wrong what if you disagree with him and he's like no I don't like that there was a lot of disagreements I think he would he had trusted an inner circle there's a few different people Aaron sidig celayo became their boss some it's crazy now that people who are like they my peers are now like see like I guess boss's CTO or Chris Cox's Chief product officer Naomi um he had an inner circle that he would listen to yeah but I think I always felt I think this is part of my story and my narrative or maybe that's what I tell myself is like I was from Berkeley they're all Harvard I always felt like a little bit of an outcast like I wasn't really accepted what about for you and your business how do you treat that employee employer relationship dude I'll tell you a story two weeks ago we had a team barbecue and I heard there was someone we're letting go on Monday and this is on a Friday and they came up to me and they're like hey how's it going and I've never I haven't met them in person before and you know the whole Zoom stuff and so I felt really I felt conflicted yeah because like it's a person I don't like if we don't let anyone go to be great but it's also it's weird and then on Monday that they did like get let go for performance reasons and I was just like like did I I don't know if I wanted to meet her right because uh yeah that was unfortunate so I think it's challenging I used to have friends at appsumo that like aren't my friends anymore like they were friends brought them in the company and now they don't talk to me because it didn't work out it's a weird mix and also there's things where like the Loyalty like if someone else a lot of times one of the questions I come back to at appsumo is like if we brought on the world's greatest CEO what would they be doing and I think that's a great question like if we were on the world's greatest YouTuber world's greatest producer or world's greatest like mechanic how would they behave um and it's tough because there's some people in the company that I think we've we give the benefit of the doubt we give a lot more too because of loyalty and friendship which I guess I'd rather lean a little bit more towards that in the other way yeah I think our line at least here is is so blurred that there is like almost no differentiation between like friendship and work at this point I for me it's always been like friendship first work second like you have to be like really good friends with someone to work with them because for us it's just like us three and you have to like like each other on a friendship level to like spend this much time together and work together have you fired anyone you worked with no but I mean it's just like you're looking you're looking at them yeah yeah we get people on the team a little bit and we've let go of those people just I know I have and like you've you know outsourced certain things to other people but you've never like really worked hand in hand yeah with those people in had to fire them the only the only actual like people on the team really Jack and Alex in terms of like full-time there's a guy Steve blank he's like super old school Silicon Valley right uh four steps to the Epiphany about how to do product development he sold multiple companies he's worth like hundreds of millions of dollars and he told me once he's like I've met my founder three times the day we started the company the day we went public and the day we sold it and that's the three times I've like actually hung out I was like I don't know I don't know if there's a right or wrong way I do think your Point's great which is like if you're gonna spend a lot of time with people you should find people you really like yeah and I think it's just always a sign in a company or like like I didn't create a company so I could be around people I hate so I I it's tough it does make work more enjoyable when you do like really like the people you work with but sometimes I will say and I'm sure we're all aware of this that we let our friendship affect our business decisions no that's true yeah what are some yeah uh is your example between you and I yes certainly like like Graham wanted to be a franchisee for a chicken restaurant yes Fried Chicken yeah hot chicken yeah and this was someone that we had on the podcast and I told Grandma like you know you have like a lot of external benefits let's say we bring on a person on the podcast a lot of the times it will disproportionately benefit Graham for stuff but for the benefit that is realized outside of the monetary gain from the podcast and and you know social growth or whatever so I brought this up to Graham right which might be a little bit of a nuanced uh thing to bring up but I felt like you know I had been thinking about it for a while and then Graham said that he was considering opening up a franchise a franchise with someone that we had on the podcast and I connected the dots I'm like well we had them on the podcast that like then gave Graham I I thought that it was a caused B like we had him on the podcast and then he extended the invitation for Graham to open up a franchise and I brought it up to him and then Graham was like no no it's not that it's not that you know and he said if you are uncomfortable with me doing this let me know and I won't even do it oh yeah extreme loyalty right like where if I felt like for example I had been taken advantage of and I said it to Graham then Graham said he wouldn't even consider opening up the franchise yeah yeah I explained to Jack that the benefit was really me's the brand of Graham Stefan and not so much the podcast but it but it's the audience that I built on the main channel that that's really led to all of this and the podcast happened to be a way that it was a great introduction but in the big picture I told Jack there's nothing that would ruin our relationship and our friendship and so I would put a lot of I would lose a lot of money or miss out on that just to keep that friendship intact because I think in the bigger picture that's way more important than anything else and of course but that's when I yeah when I totally understood when we made it clear that like you know it doesn't have anything to do with the iced coffee I was like no I respect that and I see you as a good person a great friend you know of course you don't think the Jets brought up other opportunities for him that he's brought like hey Graham you might feel kind of uneasy about this I'd like to do it but if if you're against it for personal reasons I won't do it yeah and so it's really weird it's true we never we never like step on each other's Toes or anything like we always bring it up to make sure the other person's okay with it on a friendship level yeah and obviously sometimes we're a little uncomfortable but we always give the green light or I would say like this so far there's gonna be there's gonna be some point though there's gonna be one time and that's when it's all gonna I don't wanna jinx it but I I know there's gonna be one point yeah that's it for you being solo versus now having people that you consider for opinions uh I I trust uh Jack and Alex a lot so but a lot of time I'm I kind of know the direction I want to take it and if I'm split in the middle I'll ask Jack and I'll ask Alex and usually between the two we come up with what I would consider to be the right decision or sometimes I'm so in it that I can't see the clear picture but Jack can because he spent no time on it same with Alex uh I think best friends talk like real best friends yeah I mean we totally yeah like you're like hey I don't think this is good for you I'm like you're a real best friend like uh let's hang out with my buddy uh Tynan yesterday and he's like I was talking about my ex and he's like this is really bad he's like it's just bad he's like and I was like I know but he's like no no it's bad I'm just letting you know I was like thank you yeah it's best friend yeah they did not tell you all the nice things but probably the the thing that thing is best for you we get a lot of hate on this podcast because sometimes I can be very critical of Graham and people always say oh why is the assistant hating on the the CEO of the company or whatever and I'm like well first of all if I was just a Yes Man a that would be terrible for the brand and B that would prove that Graham and I weren't even friends from the start you know what I mean like friends aren't necessarily Yes Men of each other at least true friends and also what type of business is built off of just a bunch of yesmen dude people I at appsumo no one does what I like I like almost all the time they're like I want to do this I was like can we do it I want like no I'm like okay you have a better idea than me I agree but people think that it's kind of an external perception but the thing is what if you did have the better idea and then they're going and saying no it's not but you have the better but you have the better Direction This reminds me of Mark imagine if Mark says they're like no no I'm not gonna do that I'm gonna do this instead we're just sitting there twiddling something all right I guess I have a good idea maybe we should have a day where we only hang out with each that'd be kind of nice that'd be kind of nice but uh I think it'd be nice but I don't think you get at least in business yeah the best outcomes yeah like we had a there's this woman alone who I work with uh VP of operation so she's like the day-to-day CEO so she runs it and we had this meeting about how many products should be on appsumo should we have like very curated like 10 products or 100 or like 10 000. and it was um I really admired that she fought I like to see in business who has conviction like who cares because sometimes I'm like I don't like at Facebook they'd argue for hours about the topography and which font to use on a page and I was like I don't care I don't care whatever the customer and user wants to use let them use so it's just nice to see where like how do people fight in productive ways yeah Jack really wants me to Outsource he is constantly outsourced Outsource but uh uh gosh you wanna server research scripting uh I did convince him finally to Outsource editing which was a super long uh thing that we had it was doing it before me you enjoy doing it yes I did I would say but it took up a lot of time so even though I enjoyed it for me it was a great way to zone out because I'd finish a video and then I just clear my head for five hours or three hours and just edit and then it's done and then that reward that you get after then I'm clear-headed afterwards because I can't go from like filming planning filming planning I need a break in between and so PL so editing was a great way to do that but it took up a lot of time I think that's the thing that people Miss in business scaling like the scaling to like we have 140 people 100 million it's like find also the thing you also enjoy doing and don't give that up because everybody is a health coach mybody tutor.com and he just likes he loves coaching people health and he he wants to scale but he's like I also just like coaching yeah and so I think it is finding that balance of like if you like editing stick with it I think that's people getting generic advice like scale everything not that it's bad but just don't give up the reason you started doing it or the piece that you like well I will say when Alex took over he's gotten really good at it and I've had a lot more time so now I'm constantly about a week ahead on the main Channel whereas before I'd be like day by day what do you do at that time now I don't know where the time goes uh honestly I would say it's been more time planned now honestly I find myself no more productive than I was when I was doing everything myself I'm being serious there was a point where uh I was posting six videos a week doing uh planning filming and editing everything myself before Jack came on that's not cool well no when I was doing three videos phone calls we stopped doing the phone calls so it was after that yeah it was after that what made you give him a chance uh I was really busy one day and I saw him send me an email and it was at the very top of my inbox during a time where someone dropped out so I had this Facebook group called The Real Estate millionaire Mastermind and part of it part of the way to get into that group is you have to submit your email address and I wanted people's emails so like eventually I could I could use that email list to either Market to or or follow up with or basically have and uh we would get thousands of emails and you would have to go like Hand by hand or like you know by hand going and copy and pasting all the email addresses put them in a spreadsheet and it was a lot of work so I tried hiring so many people like 20 bucks an hour you know whatever it might be just go through like you could watch a movie and just copy and paste these email addresses no one would do it I'd ask people to do it they'd say oh yeah no problem oh yeah no I didn't have time and meanwhile they're building up so I would do it myself and during a time where someone just dropped out Jack was the top email saying I'm willing to do anything and so I called them I'm like hey if you want to do anything here's this thing it's really boring but if you want to do it here's you just feel free to do it you don't have to but like if you want to feel free and you finish the whole thing like overnight for free yeah and I was like wow did you pay me yeah it did not accept yeah uh and it was so good that I'm like wow and I I felt bad he spent like how long was that you know so it was way more than eight hours maybe 10 hours whatever it is uh so I felt so bad he spent like all this time I'm like how about this I'll take you out for dinner and so he drives down I take him out for uh for a hamburger I don't even think I ate because you didn't eat me yeah I wanted to save the money this is in my like extreme Frugal days like I'd rather just take Jack out and me does not I felt bad because I was like I'm taking this guy's money yeah that's fine but uh but we hit it off and then I was like we could continue doing this and come up with different ideas or I wanted to do uh an iteration of the Dave Ramsey Show and I called it the Graham Stefan show where I take phone calls and I said to Jack how about this I'll post on Instagram you go through these emails and you pick the three calls that you think might be the best and Jack started doing that I mean yeah yeah just like you did the work I mean Jeremy on our show he did her Instagram for a few weeks Mitchell volunteered at our charity ride for that but I will say if Jack didn't send that email at the right time when I needed the help like if Jack sent me that maybe two weeks prior even if if it was at the top of my inbox just wouldn't have needed the help and I probably would have looked at it that's nice but you know you forget and so the power of asking is so underutilized the fact that you just kept asking but I guess there's also a balance of asking and being creepy oh yeah we're just a line where it's like I'm sure you get this all like hey I want to help hey it's like like but it's interesting which ones make it through the noise yeah I think some of that is also just lucky timing and I do think there was an element where he asked enough to get at the right point where I really needed the help yeah and you were in the group you probably saw that he struggled with it uh no I wasn't in the group no he just sat right I just watched the theater fan like yeah just random emails dude hell yeah good for you thank you thank you yeah we actually went through those emails in one of the uh terribly embarrassing oh really I was like desperate pretty much they were love letters there are a couple of long ones yeah some of them were short some were just bumps you know yeah yeah they varied between like paragraphs and like just following up to make sure you saw the above email paragraph just let me know if anything you need paragraph yeah be back and forth a lot of the stuff though a driving factor of sending those emails was just like the ebb and flow of just like my my life at the time because I was working at a restaurant I hated it and I was a full-time student at the time as well and I wasn't a huge fan of that either so with all of this time when I was mindlessly like busting dishes at the restaurant I was always thinking what can I be doing and then I would just like build it up build it up build it up okay I have to do this thing with graham or whatever and I just send out another email and then you know that would expel it for a little bit and then I'd build up again because I hated doing all that stuff so much and I'd do it again yeah it's great thank you yeah let's talk more about apps yeah okay you're worth 1.4 or 190 billion dollars or whatever that website I think I've seen was probably worth a few hundred million so I'm worth like 200 300 I don't know because it's hard to know like it depends if someone would buy it I don't ever want to sell it let's talk about what what does appsumu do for those that don't know figuring out no and we're not and we're not sponsored by the way we're not sponsored no should we be so probably no okay yeah you know what we believe it or not we thought about it but we've never accepted money from any guest yeah and so and we don't want to start down that path of like you know uh no Sydney is a combination of my career so I think it's interesting to find all the things you hate right all the [ __ ] you just like hated doing like I hated working at Intel I hated corporate I didn't like Facebook's like elitism like these Silicon Valley like douchebags that are like they think they're so great we're in Patagonia all the time um but it's just like so Elite and they're like oh we're so cool and like I don't know I didn't care for that then I worked at mint.com yeah yeah I was one of the first guys there um I thought it was really interesting to find a product that like okay I sucked I did all their marketing but it was just like they had a great product this is a great product yeah I didn't really have to do much then I had games but I was like I hate build I don't play a lot of games but Sony's was just like a combination of like all the things that didn't work out to finally be like how do I finally just do the thing I really want to do and even if it didn't make a lot of money I'm gonna at least be okay because I'll be the customer and I think that's how people should be thinking about like what's the problem like even our YouTube videos I watch a lot of them all the time I'm like dude this is cool and I'm like I'm like watching I'm like proud of myself or I'm like watching I'm like pointed to myself I'm like but it's like I like doing it like what are we gonna do on the channel so I've seen what was that it was like I love Tech I love startups I like this new software that's coming out maybe I can just hit these people up and be like I know you guys need customers everyone wants more customers can I get a deal on it and then I'll promote it for you and then we'll split the profit and that's that's kind of uh and I was able to validate it for about 50 bucks you know more or less a weekend so that's when I'm trying to encourage people I have we've like I've helped a lot of people trust our companies and I think everyone wastes too much time and waste too much money and so I won't be able to not waste any time spend just a weekend and see if you can get a few customers which is what I did with appsuma yeah how does the business work now how do you acquire customers how do you make money and how does the the business make money yeah so we have uh we have three different revenue streams we have a like appsumo Plus Membership 99 bucks a year you get uh we have a community you get deals on our you get an extra deal we have some software you get for free so it's like Amazon Prime but for startups and Founders so that's 99 bucks we have our own original products so we've created like a MailChimp alternative called senpai box we created basically oh you have send Fox yeah that's us so all of these products that are mainstream that are expensive we created alternative one-time payment uh versions of them so tidycal which is our calendly alternative so it's like 20 bucks you get premium version of calendly forever so that business unit maybe does like two or three million dollars this year and then the bulk of our Revenue we have two two sections is our Marketplace so we go out let's say you create gramsoft we go out and normally you're 20 bucks a month uh we go out and negotiate with you um the sales team will find you negotiate with you like a 50 for Life deal and then we'll do like a 50 50 rev split and then we just share the money in that so now why would a company agree to that isn't that a lot less money or are they making it up with a whole bunch more volume so we have that and then we do have a Marketplace listing so anyone like if you go to appsum.com sell you can if you have software you can go and list it yourself now and we have to approve it uh and it's software targeted for small business owners so the question is why would someone do this is literally the best deal online for a software creator so if you think about it you created software how would you get customers today buy ads buy ads maybe sponsorship sponsor uh the iced coffee hour yeah you know maybe do your own content maybe PR maybe like Google SEO right all those are cost money take time and not guaranteed appsumo if we do a deal with you we give you money guaranteed because we have an audience there's free exposure and you get customers now that you can potentially sell things in the future there is no better way to play promote new software than appsuma if there was then I would stop appsumo so for a Creator it's like there's no money you get it guaranteed plus we also have like we have a group we call beta links that actually review your product and then help you improve it before we launch that's fun and then we do your marketing so we have a video team we have a Content team there's a team that does like the images for you so we do a lot of times better marketing than the product can do themselves that's so small yeah and MailChimp I believe is one of the first ones they were in one of our early bundles and the thing that the instrument of Sumo from a business model perspective and this is just totally lucky uh and this one I try to encourage people's one the market for software just grew a lot like when I started it 12 years ago there was like 10. and now there's like hundreds of thousands maybe not Millions but hundreds of thousands and then we just got lucky with our business model so we don't hold inventory like we don't have to really have any office we don't have to do anything and we get the money up front and then we pay our partners uh 30 or 60 days later so it's a pretty interesting model like there's no food cost there's no anything we just built up the audience and community that trusts us how big is your audience on appsumo uh it ranges per month but a million to three million people will come through absolute so and how we make our money uh there's three channels that are our main drivers so affiliate marketing is actually a gigantic traffic channel for us uh which I wasn't expecting um Facebook ads so I think we spent about a quarter million to 400 000 a month on ads Google Instagram uh and then email marketing which is not really gross the audience but that's probably about how far Revenue comes from our email list so I love email yeah and then what about for you do you just pay yourself a salary are you do you take that one dollar uh so it's really fun I think how Founders pay themselves funded or not funded over the years is really interesting to consider uh and I was very self-conscious because like my last job um my last company I think I made like 150 or so and so when I started absolutely I didn't paint I didn't have anything it was like zero dollars first year 42 000 next year this year my salary is 175 000. that's my base seller and do you like invest in as a normal person uh well so what's missing though is that if the company has profit then I get a big chunk of the profit if there's no profit then I don't get anything um so for the first like seven years of company I actually did the analysis if I would have stayed at Intel I would have made more money for the first seven years of appsumo interesting right so I actually plotted my salary and I did a little bit of like inflation and like a salary adjustment versus my app Sumo salary got to like 7 500. so Intel would have been a great deal yeah and so I think some people miss out on this people think entrepreneurship is like how you get rich having a good job is actually my stepdad I got pretty rich having like a pretty standard engineering job and doing like really safe investing yeah um but the past three years I make seven figures every year but I I don't want to talk about the exact number because I feel bad for the people that work at the company it's like oh why why is he getting rich and I'm not so I want and that's actually an interesting question how do people get rich at companies is that you make more money for the company and the company has to give more money so we've made many millionaires not many relative we made millionaires that work it up soon wow so it's uh yeah I basically if there's no so like this year like my salary got cut in half because we wanted to hire more people or the the expected salary of the year yeah got cut in half because I was like either I can make a lot of money or I can invest in a team and grow the business how is the recession or a possible recession going to impact your business I saw I've seen the email from y combinator basically warning all the startups like hey VC funding is probably going to be harder to come by stockpile cash make sure you run lean I mean they gave a rather you know disastrous email to a lot of companies I've seen that I saw the Sequoia one see the Sequoia one no I didn't see that that was pretty good yeah I don't believe in recessions I just don't believe in them don't you believe that there but there is like but there is a time people still buy food people but don't you think there is a time where funding is going to be more difficult than others I don't believe in taking funding but I think for a lot of the companies who need to raise in order to secure Capital to grow those companies are are going to have a harder time getting Capital yeah business yeah it's just like the you know it's natural big picture yeah I mean I think in terms of taking a step back to give a little more clarity is that recession is about control and planning but then day and so if you were not doing something valuable enough you go away yeah you were doing something valuable enough you stick around and I think with appsumo specifically people want to save money and then it's like if things are getting tougher like I want to save money and so appsumo is generally relatively well positioned and we don't have a lot of upfront costs besides our team which is I mean it's like 60 of our I think our monthly burn right now is about 2 million just on teammates just on the team um so the way we start thinking about that is like what can you control are you doing something on the totem pole that's valuable enough for an audience and then the other two things I would think about for companies is that do you have a phase spending so what we do as a phase plan approach so you asked about recession if things go bad we have a plan in place about what we're going to cut exactly so it's not basically doing it real time it's something we've already thought about ahead of time got it um and then I do think people just need to think about like if I'm not doing something valuable enough for example my friend who's a body coach whenever if a recession is happening do you think people want to spend a lot of money on like a health coach no don't [ __ ] or not like dude I'm just trying to survive just like when covet hit people like they cut everything and so then I think you have to think about what else do they want to do are they eating food do they want supplements can you actually do help maybe with workouts can you maybe do coaching certification and so I think it's finding the things that are going to be invaluable all year round and I think people are just doing things that are nice to have not must-haves way too often yeah so what's the end goal with appsumo because you're not going to sell it you say what if you got an offer at like 500 million bucks I probably so okay yeah yeah [ __ ] people like I would never sell forever if someone came the thing that is not the thing I think people miss out on is that you're like all right I can sell and then what am I going to do then I'd probably just start absolutely I would keep making YouTube videos I would like working on a book and I would promote things which is what I like to do so I think people get really excited about how much money it's like why don't you just find the thing that you can sustain on like making YouTube videos maybe it's making coffee maybe it's promoting products or promoting people we've thought we've talked about an IPO like we have numbers that I like are compelling but I I and honestly I don't care it's totally egotistical like to have a public company would just be ego because like it'd be cool to say you have a ticker symbol yeah anything pretty neat but I don't want ticker symbol uh could be Sumo it could be incredible if you secure that if that's not already I think something logic might have it but the point because for me is like I don't want to have to have check-ins I don't want to have rules I don't have investors on what to do selling um I think it'd be interesting if it was a certain amount but then what would I do all day like for basically the past three years I haven't worked right we had another CEO for six years of the company yeah and he grew a lot of the revenue in the business and I just kind of like [ __ ] around and honestly it was and this sounds bad because I think this is the dream people think but it was really unfulfilling it's really unsatisfying not working and not doing something you're actually like [ __ ] this is hard and I came back about a year ago and I was like yo this sucks and I love it so to give that up to have money that I can't already spend like I have more than enough right now and I think people need to figure out how much they actually need which is much lower than they think um I don't know if someone did a billion or something yeah that'd be cool but I don't know what else I would do so what is your normal day like today I mean yeah I saw your video with Leon Hendricks by the way oh yeah fantastic dude he was so bad uh that was probably the most realistic day uh can you walk us through that day for this yeah in the video yeah so I live in Austin Texas um I get up around 9 A.M uh let's just take a Monday so my days are very structured I think one of the things that if you're a CEO or you if you want to have high leverage in your days like I probably spend maybe around five hours a day looking at my calendar which is like kind of uncommon for people so what that means is that there's a woman named Anna so on Fridays we go for about an hour to hour and a half reviewing my calendar like we have a survey like what happened this week what was good this week were you consistent this week what blockchains week what are we doing differently next week and then we meet again on Monday and then I meet I review it myself so it's maybe more about three hours but then I review it myself on Sunday too um and so I'm just very specific about like what are my main goals that I'm trying to accomplish and right now there's three right so a CEO there's three things that matter like where we're going through your vision what are the rules so operating principles are we have an operating principle manual and then who are the people there so those are the three things I'm really trying to optimize for and then in my week it's really like I color code my calendar how much of my week really looks like that because I think if people say what's important to them and they actually look at how they spend their time it's very different it's very different um so I colored my calendar so Mondays I basically try to do morning Pages you guys read the artist's way now so good what's this uh it's by Julia Cameron it's like one of these books that like you hear about you're like you read it like this [ __ ] epic haven't I heard about it because I think some of the best stuff is the stuff that others don't know about so she wrote this book about I never thought I was creative like I don't know I see people with like cameras or sees people like I don't know doing photos or I guess that's cameras are drawing and I'm like dude I want to be creative I'm just a business guy I don't know [ __ ] and her book is just like dude you're a [ __ ] artist in business and one of her key things that she encourages everyone is visiting morning Pages were for 15 minutes you just write unfiltered it's called journaling I guess is what other people call it but so uh so I just do that every Monday it's just Mondays I'll basically wake up uh I do tea I do element it's like these electrolyte packets I have them every morning um and so I'll do that I'll write 15 minutes and one of the key things that's actually been really powerful uh that I've done the past few years with that is I just write what am I looking forward to this week on my Monday mornings like what this week am I like hella excited about like what was it for you guys this week oh man concert oh yeah which one Rex Orange County uh I did it two nights ago in Vegas it's a musician artist it's like country no no no no it's an EDM no it's like it's like a bedroom pop kind of like uh I don't know what to call it but yeah that's what I was looking forward to hell yeah yeah uh probably the delivery of a Tesla oh hell yeah yeah the Roadster horn is coming over here no the old one oh six yeah okay um I think so anyways my Monday morning I just try to think about it like what am I looking forward to at work and if there's nothing I'm like oh cool let's make some [ __ ] up that you're gonna look forward to uh like coming to Vegas this is sweet yeah what are you looking forward to definitely well we went to Bill Burr okay and then I went to the Warriors playoff game like I did I flew at night in a private jet uh jsx oh wow yeah just like a sick 200 bucks for a private job right yeah really good deal so I flew up there took my friend for his birthday watched the game and then flew back for work in the morning that was probably the the key thing that's cool and then uh so Monday yeah so I'll write out what I'm looking forward to this week I try to process just whatever's going on in my head I've been you know emotionally up and down for relationships and travel so just trying to be like okay what's going on with you like let's try to understand uh Mondays is a lot of appsumo check-in so I have like an hour and a half meeting with Elona about what's going on in business uh what are kpis then I had a meeting with Anna to do my schedule and then sometimes on Monday like I'm working on a book so there's a guy named tall Roz he wrote Never Eat Alone never split the difference so we had like a two hour work session going over one of the chapters then I'll do like a body like a body workout or weightlifting with my buddy Daniel then I have a chef so she'll I'll eat dinner at home and then read I try not to watch TV or do anything that's like uh not productive at night during the weekdays and the weekends I'll go crazy yeah and you mentioned relationships can we talk about that yeah let's talk about it all right this is like the bane of my existence this honestly is like probably the worst thing going on in my life I don't know how is it to date as a man worth over 100 million bucks right yeah no no easy it is fish in a barrel you're honest I thought when you got super rich like they just come to you I thought like you see all these old old like disgusting people with like really hot babes I'm like where am I allowed to say this yeah yeah I'm like I just I'm not trying to be rude to men or women but I was like where the [ __ ] are they getting them at because like I thought I got a hell of money and I'm like okay I'm just still at my house like alone uh it doesn't happen so getting rich does not solve that um but dating has been it's been a it's been shitty shitty um I think what happened when I turned I turned 40 in February yeah and like 80 of my friends have marriages and kids and I'm like home I'm like out hanging out with two guys doing podcasts oh that sounds fun yeah jeez Jack never he's never invited back to kick this old [ __ ] guy off the show uh you know all my friends have kids and marriages and you know I'm like oh what's wrong with me like what did I think it's a bad thing to no yeah well it felt like a bad thing and then I was like all right you're gonna go on a [ __ ] hardcore wife Quest because in business it's very simple for me it's like okay where's my what's my destination absolutely we have a school what's your plan to get there here's my plan all right now let's execute towards that it's very like I think that's what how many subscribers do I want what's the content what's the job I want is your plan go executed and it's not as controllable with females right it's not it's there's a lot more like where do you where do you get your pipeline where do you find them from how do you filter to make sure it's the right one yeah so if it's too analytical to me well the past two months I put a lot of pressure to find a wife and it's been important that sounds like that sounds like that's yeah how about this yeah let's let's go deeper why it's it's that's to me sounds more like the the pressure the societal pressure of like oh yeah I'm approaching 40 this is what most people should be doing a I should go in that direction but it doesn't seem to me like you've ever done that so it's surprising to me that like for for a companionship that like that would be the route you went if I'm honest I thought it would make me feel more complete like this is the part missing in my life like my work I love my work like it's it sucks a lot of times and it's hard as [ __ ] but I'm like yo I really enjoy this challenges and I feel like the my mindset is like these are challenges that are good for me my health is good my friends I literally have 10 out of 10 friends I have like the best friends like I'm like I feel very lucky and then when the women one it just feels very like why is this not going well like what's wrong with me or what's wrong with the situation for that um and I think with my dating over the past 20 years it was very like it wasn't dating with intent it was just dating it was like you you're cute and you like you you let me sleep with you and like we can hang out and like but it wasn't like oh we're gonna try to date to see if this someone I want to be compatible with for a longer period of time so I think I just put artificial pressure on myself to make it happen was that an age thing where like you felt this compelled that like 35 let's say because like it it sounds like this was more something somewhat recent than yeah my friend is one of my best friends Adam was just talking about he's like and also like you're on a dating app yeah which is weird because I I do get now pretty often like oh I watch your videos which is a little strange and they're like why are you on a dating app um but and having that number show 40 in the dating app verse 39 was like a weird mind [ __ ] really just a weird like oh I guess I'm getting older it's not forever if I want to have kids like I'm only going to get maybe 40 to 60 years with them so I probably want to have that start that sooner uh do you think that's from your perspective 40 makes a difference for 39 or do you think it's just generally your response has been different at 40 for versus 39. I'm sure a lot of women would would rather put 29 and 30. yeah and maybe and maybe there is a significant you know slow down after the age of 30. I don't know it was well I was engaged I think I mentioned and I broke off that engagement um and yeah I think getting 40 it's like oh [ __ ] like this is do am I gonna find a partner is it gonna be is it actually gonna happen and I don't think it really mattered I really considered it and it does feel like these other areas in my life feel pretty dialed in and this one is not and this one feels much more uncertain unless like I can't control it or make it happen yeah and so then forcing it uh the past these two past two months has been like pretty shitty yeah when were you engaged I was engaged uh November 2019. we got engaged at the Met in New York and how long did you date prior to we did about three years okay do you mind answering like what why we broke off the engagement uh uh I try to understand it right and you try to like it's interesting with all of our lives like how we try to tell back the story that we have uh and I also don't want to like I'm I'm talking to her again so oh you're back talking to her a little bit so which then feels even more confusing because all my friends are like yo it's a bad idea oh yeah if I'm even saying like I don't even know her or the situation I from what I've seen it well I I shouldn't you know go for it from what I've seen it's usually not a good idea once there is a break off because because it's it's like it's like yeah not only is there a reason but there's still all those underlying issues that probably haven't been resolved that you know you could put a Band-Aid over it but I think the cracks are gonna show I think that the two things there is uh one I've never fired anyone I regret I've never had fired anyone where I'm like I really wish I had that and I think there's a parallel here where it's like you broke up for a reason and it's probably that probably is not going to go away though the challenge is that our experience now is very Muffin Top you know from Seinfeld like it's just the muffin top it's like just the good part yeah so we're having just like highlight reels versus like going when we can get back to relationship um so while we broke up I think part of it there's different things my friend said but I think one of it is like this person who you choose as your partner is probably the most important decision in your life sure yeah probably your business partner and your romantic partner female now whatever and I was like damn that's a [ __ ] important decision there should be very little doubt and I had a lot of doubt and I was like I'm gonna spend 40 years with this person like I like another way uh it's funny to look at us like do you want to have like 2 000 more dinners with this person like and I just I do you think it's that's just nerves though that maybe it's like that's a lot of pressure to think of you know 50 years and summarize it into three and yeah well I think what's interesting is what are the things we don't have doubt about right like I have a lot of things in mind if I'm like there is zero doubt like I have friends that I'm like there's nothing like you're not even a quick and I'm also not sleeping in with them and I'm not having dinner yeah but I think in terms of your your romantic partner like they should be pretty minimal there should probably be nervousness um I I do think though your your point is interesting where like I think the amount of pressure I put on myself I think High Achievers are actually really negative we're like really I think myself as a I'm not a high achiever but I'm like always going but I have this really negative self-talk and so I think that level of expectation made it hard for probably her and for our relationship and even for this recent dating period where um after you broke up like this past two months I'm like I meet someone I do basically a wife interview no I know I can't do that it does not worked out well it's not worked out well yeah the way to grow a business I've noticed is so much different than like getting in a relationship and I felt myself throughout like my mid-20s very similar because I was like really good at like being a real estate agent and uh and buying properties and to me it seemed like so easy to be able to follow this the same you know patterns but then I was so stiff and business like when I would go on a date I mean I was so uptight and all I wanted to talk about is like business and making money and like just investing and I was so uptight that I think it just it shows and that's sort of like analytical approach just not attractive well I guess for are you guys in relationships yeah yeah and then how is your partner like a super type a person or is it more like a house person is it both uh like how scary yeah they're more like they're you know they're taking care of you and they're taking care of the house so that you can house I would say I'd say she's 50 50 on that really yeah I would I would say it's 50. I would say just in the way that she treats like Ramsay and and Bailey oh gosh yeah for the animals oh shoot gosh dinners and she does she does his laundry you know you don't hire someone to do your laundry no she doesn't I listen I I wouldn't hire you I would just do it myself it's so it's so easy I'm not gonna talk about that yeah no and I think you could find a woman that is maybe both those things I think basically uh I went to New York on a wife Quest two weeks ago and so I just set up like I've never dated I've only dated Asian women so I wanted to date Jewish women and so I went on the apps and I lined up basically like almost a day to night with a different Jewish one it was just like stressful and it was creating a lot of anxiety Jewish I'm Jewish dude dude nice here are you Jewish but it was just like it was because I never dated a Jew yeah my family is Jewish my dad's from Israel like I study Hebrew like I'm not I'm not religious whatsoever but I'm like yeah it'd be kind of cool to like continue that lineage and I've only dated Asians and it was just it was stressful though it was just like that's a lot of pressure to go yeah you went for the objective of finding a wife I went for a bike race and then I made it with that and then working on my book like the three major prayers walk me through a night of a wife Quest right let's say you just finished the job just taking notes here and it's like six people are you on a wife definitely not a wife Quest girlfriend question I'll just you know I'm a develop a relationship with someone he's the most eligible bachelor at this point it's become a running like joke how did you meet Macy uh Instagram she hit you up or you hit her she hit me up what'd you say yeah uh she made a really funny comment I had uh posted something as a like a like a story and she had commented on it and uh and basically it was a funny comment but I didn't even think anything of it and I just thought it was a funny comment and I responded back and uh and then we just kept the banter going back and forth and it just developed easy yes there's one of my new favorite words in business and I think in this relationship experience is organic yeah like how was it organic to make content organic to interact with them and so after the New York thing we wouldn't talk about that I just came back and I was like I went to therapy and I actually interviewed a relationship coach Stephanie Rigg she was phenomenal on Instagram really really good and she's like how are you feeling with all this stuff I was like I'm [ __ ] anxious she's like you don't have to do it I was like what do you mean she's like you're you seem pretty happy and life's pretty good like why don't you just chill like and then when you want to go hang out with someone instead of having to why don't you get to so I've been trying to just think more about like what do I get to do and then also just notice how I'm feeling with some of these things like if I'm really feeling anxious about going on a date it's like okay why what's going on with this anxiety and you like let's take a step back to checking how we're doing so the past two weeks I've just chilled on it and like I like cut off a few people that I was like I don't let's just not talk we'll be friends uh and honestly it's just been it's been nice it's been so relieving I have a feeling the less pressure you put on it the more success you'll have on that I think if you went in just thinking I'm gonna have a great time and just tonight it's just about me having fun I think if you just went in like that with no expectations you would be shocked just like like how quickly you'll uh make great connections that helps me a lot what helps me especially is like the abundance mentality towards women because sometimes I'll go on a date with a girl and then I'll have like a four month break and then I'll go on another date with a girl but because it was such an extended break of doing that I like hype this up a lot and I get all nervous and everything and I make a bigger deal out of it than it really is but if I go on a date this week and then next week I go on a date and then this week I go on a date I'm like okay well there's so many yeah you know what I mean and it makes me more calm and they'll like a lot better but there's also that takes away the expectation of like this is the first one in four months it has to go well it doesn't go well it's going to be another four months and when you don't care because it's like well it's like you could meet another person next week yeah someone asked me about like my 20s if I could do it all over again it's kind of annoying stupid question and one of the things was about it was dating it was like I would have been way more thoughtful in my dating I think I just dated like oh you like me sure let's do this versus like okay it'd be nice to be intentional for that and anyone out there if you're dating just be more clear like hey I want to find someone long term like let me be more intentional dating versus just like this is a cool person to have around yeah I've noticed the dating topics actually do quite well oh really and it's yeah that's what people like yeah they love especially in in finance because the usually I want to say it's probably 85 male and if they're into Finance there's there's a chance they're not that good at dating too disproportionately and they're probably single yeah so when you have that demographic and and you as a finance person talk about dating I think a lot of people relate to it because we've all been through it yeah and it's just something that people want to work on and overcome and I think not a lot of people are talking about it or if they do yeah they take a very uh you know extremist stance on it and it seems like you either have the people who just say oh no don't worry just be yourself and then you have the other people just like to what to me seems like just trash talking other genders and just like categorizing them it's just it's weird but I think because there's not a lot in the middle it's just like that's what people that that's their options it's either like I don't know myself but that's not working or oh it's all of these things and it's their fault and you know I need to act it's it's so bad it's really it's really toxic in my opinion that that extreme and that's interesting and that's going on it seems like a lot of it's on Tick Tock and based on their algorithms like you watch one of those videos it's like oh I'm Gonna Keep recommending those videos and then it drills it in and like oh they're bad I have a yeah I have a best friend uh Neville uh he runs a copyrighting course business online and I've loved his the way he approaches like kind of like Homer Simpson he's just like well donut that's nice he's just so [ __ ] happy all the time and I think because I'm like a neurotic Jew and I'm like ah how do how's it you know what it's like and I just like that he's just more at peace with everything in his dating approach which I really admired he's like by 2023 I want to be at a place where I'm having a kid or with someone to have a kid and as he approaches his dating it wasn't so stressful like mine is and the stress is all internal no one made me stressful it's all inside I think that's for a lot of us it's like this inside these inside voices and uh his was like I'm just gonna go and have fun meeting interesting people yeah um I think now I'm finally recognizing like how nice that is and then yeah just find a person you want to keep interacting with and that'll lead to having kids and then being committed yeah would you say a lot of the stress is what drives you to accomplish so much I think I don't I think something the most successful people are doing the most dissatisfied is what my observation has been because Neville as an example of it has like a six-figure business it makes like probably 100 200k which is a lot I think a lot of money and he's just happy with that and it's just very hard for me to do that it's very I think that one of the most challenging things in businesses how do you be happy with what you have and have a desire for more because if you don't have a desire for more you're going to stay where you are which is okay and you'll be good but then you're like well I also want to evolve and progress but what is it that's in you that wants to achieve so much ah it's just High ambition you know what's funny what value is instilled by your parents you ever hang out with your parents and you're like oh I [ __ ] see where I get it from yeah you ever do that yeah or is it the opposite probably the uh I don't want to say the opposite um I don't know I call my mom and she's like okay I'm going to the gym now okay I cleaned the oven for three hours okay and she's like no I don't know how you're you always are so busy I'm like Mom you literally haven't stopped all day and I think there's a little bit of like just being around her um that's just kind of like I don't know I guess I've always been like I want to progress but one thing I think is fascinating about money making and I'm guessing this is I'm assuming true for you is that you get to a point where the money just for me doesn't really I don't care like if we sell like we probably think two days ago we had a 300 000 a day today's probably 200 000 a day like that's [ __ ] a lot of money I think that's crazy but it doesn't do that doesn't like my no chubby no nothing right but if we like do a cool new marketing initiative or do a new product or we like relaunch something for the website launch something that excites me and so it's just interesting about like what the motivators are for me it's just progress I guess I just like doing cool new things for the business itself I know a lot of people through there like entrepreneurial Journey they can make these micro decisions or little tweaks that can then Skyrocket the business were there any changes that you made with appsumo in itself uh for example maybe like changing one marketing campaign requiring on one person or something like that that really just took the business to another level yeah what one thing that's fascinating is that there's been two CEOs right so I started the company 12 years ago we brought this guy on Eamon and Eamon is just like Mr consistent he's not Mr shiny object he didn't do he doesn't like he's just like oh this is working let's just keep doing it and that went from 4 million to about 50 million in Revenue just from him doing that um and so I think there's something that gets missed out on about boringness like boring is sexy like I read this article about um these guys boating Across America I love Wall Street Journal Saturdays is phenomenal free I highly recommend it and uh that their trainer said if I want you to train without music I want you to train without any stimulation just get get used to being bored and if you can get good at that when you're doing the ocean or anything that's gonna be easy for you I think Eamon has done an excellent job at being boring like he's like ads work let's get to an ads email marketing work keep doing a marketing and I do think my nature even at appsuma like I've been back a year I was like oh Marketplace we can let anyone listen let's get six thousand so we went from 600 to 6 000. Eamon would have gone from 600 to a thousand there's different ways of approaching how to execute a business maybe we'll get to the same destination but now I think it's just figuring out that balance is of like shiny new [ __ ] and also just doing what [ __ ] works and keep doing that uh in terms of inflection points in the business I think there's a key a few key moments number one we did a giveaway so I think one of the best ways to get business ideas is look at total [ __ ] random Industries so I was like reading a women's magazine it's also cool to read women's magazines and in the back of the women's magazine had like a kitchen giveaway I was like oh that's cool we should do a giveaway for appsumo and then my business partner was like oh what if we built software for it and so we did a Dropbox for Life giveaway because I was like that's [ __ ] great that's crazy great yeah and we're still playing limited storage uh I don't know if it's unlimited but still that couldn't be that costly like so that's the thing we got to 250 000 subscribers wow in a week and that definitely is probably eight figures I don't know about profit but he figures of Revenue over the past seven eight years so that was a great giveaway wow that well one of our we have two business we have a and I think every business should get this is something uh we have a thing called a mom Master operating manual and it's basically what are the principles for how we operate as a business so one of them is test and invest and so test investors we basically launched this giveaway and we're like oh [ __ ] this [ __ ] exploded so then our second operating principle is double down so we did a giveaway for life for the next like six months Evernote for Life Photoshop for Life Netflix for life and we're still paying for them I'm really hoping these people die I hope they die soon but no how much does it cost to give someone something for Life uh so the thing that's interesting is if most people only live to around 80 right so they they're gonna have it's non-transferable so they'll have 60 years 100 a year for Dropbox for life so is that six thousand yeah but those giveaways did Millions so if you just look at your economics these things yeah they could live until 150 it still makes sense oh yeah I think that's 100 yes no but then so um so that was a major inflection point uh taking products that we built internally like the giveaway and then selling them externally so we took that and made a king Sumo send Fox's emails tools we were using sold out externally send Fox sumo.com is externally uh that definitely changed trajectory in terms of Revenue and then new exposure um going from I think one of the things that everyone needs to do is like a one minute business model like look at your unit economics so when we started out assuming when I started it it was bundles of software so it'd be like MailChimp um Meister task uh rescue time whatever Evernote and it was 25 for all five tools which is an insane deal this is such a good deal and then one day uh Andrew Chen is my best friends and he's an advisor of the company he's like let's look at the union economics of like it's five deals this price what if you just made it singular like one deal only which now is obvious but you just showed the economics of it and I was like oh so we went from five to one a day five five bundles to just singular deals uh new new curve when we started doing ads New curve and new ads when there's no one else doing it so when we did Facebook news feed as everyone else was doing it major curve um email marketing I think is probably the most underutilized thing for every business out there offline and online businesses like that's something we did very early I Didn't Do It for the first few months once you start collecting emails trajectory the business changed in the past years a lot of this the stuff um it's not major like Deltas it hasn't been major like major changes what are the biggest challenges right now for apps anywhere are the one biggest challenge that you guys face probably how to have consistent growth right like I don't know if we know our inputs that are actually going to affect the ultimate output of the business like is it like is it more customers how do we get more customers and I don't think we know how to really control our input dials like to grow like to grow your channel you probably just put more videos out like grow our YouTube channel it's like we're gonna do three videos a month their videos gonna be this and it works and I think with app similar we're at a point where uh how many people want to buy startup software how many are agencies or Freelancers or contractors how many are out there that don't know about us all right how much more how do we reach them is there more of them and then just really trying to understand that do you guys buy ads on like Fiverr and stuff like that haven't bought it you buy ads on Fiverr probably you could pay enough to get a banner there but I feel like that would be the perfect place to you know I don't know maybe if we're here at a deal you know what probably uh Freelancers probably a Graham Stefan sponsorship would be it's probably gonna change yes it's probably it's probably way better than that if you lose subscribers I hope not I mean there's different things that are I would say I'd say right now the two major things that I think we can fix or get better at is number one like where we're trying to go in the next few years so we've only ever had like one year plans like we're gonna try to be a minister what's like Mark what's our number one target x amount of Revenue and so the team was basically asking me like where are we going in the future where's this all going and so then I've spent this quarter basically putting that together and so I think I think that'll help us that's definitely been one of the biggest challenges and then secondly is the leadership team the people like we talked about Facebook early on the people that were helping us get to this point are great but they've never run a sales team of 30 plus people they've never run an engineering team of 15 plus people or like I don't know support team of like 20 people and so you have to start finding people that have taken it past that scale so that's probably the second biggest challenge which is like how do you find like a chief Revenue officer I've never heard of this role but this is like a major role at like a lot of new tech companies or chief business officers so they manage the sales and marketing organs they roll up to them I never heard of that so now I think filling out the leadership team on some of these gaps marketing we had a people issue we had people uh Chief people officer come in and then finding this Chief Revenue officer let's say the average person right here watching this has just a random idea for a business yeah what are the first steps just to test it out to see if it's going to work out not they don't already have like anything successful or they're not making money they just have an idea let's let's do a real one so like what how do you like this coffee you're selling coffee now bankroll coffee no for sale at bankruptcoffee.com how is it by the way pretty good you try the bankroll coffee yeah tastes good taste the coffee good yeah so let's say you have a coffee business right what most people do like what you probably did did you sell any of it before you made it probably not no okay so what I did I taste tested it you taste tested and so how long did you go from idea to actually making your for sale uh oh gosh probably that's six months yeah so and then how much did you have to invest in like do you have to invest anything uh I think it was I don't know offhand it was under ten thousand dollars uh split between two people I think so like six six grand for me okay and so the way I like to approach it basically call it million dollar weekend it's the the book I'm working on and it's the formula that I've used at appsumo and other companies is like how could you have done it in 48 hours and so the idea you're like well I can't make coffee you have to go taste it but what you could have done is seen is there a demand for what you're trying to sell so you could have emailed your audience posted on the community tab post on Instagram and seeing if you could actually get buyers for it yeah see and then if they get buyers for it you're like hey this coffee is going to taste just like coffee like that's my whole stick and see if you can actually get people to buy from you yeah and if you can now the six months you're spending you know you have guaranteed customers and so I think most people do what you do which is the opposite way which is not you can get to the same destination but I've always been I don't want to spend any money I don't want to waste any time and I want to figure out is this something people actually want because I've done the other way yeah where I spent six months building a site called bettercade.com it was sports betting we launched it no one wanted it I built a thing for Disney for three months finally had it for them they didn't want it and I was like it's got to be another way to do this so I always try to get people how do you do a pre-sell how do you do validation how do you ask people to actually want to buy it and give you dinero cash venmo PayPal cash app whatever and then from there then you go build a product out so this can this can go literally for any business like doing watches same thing can you because what people do if you can't get three customers is what my target is within 48 hours it's only going to get [ __ ] harder so like three yeah I think three is the right number because one yeah okay but it can't be like your family and friends right it can be it should be family and friends oh because what are they gonna be biased and say oh yes honey I'm gonna go and buy that you have you have a family yeah you have like parents probably yeah have they bought your coffee uh no I just give it to him for free okay yeah but then did you ask him about it all or anything no but my uh mine is skewed because I know whatever I put reasonably out there people are gonna buy it is it selling to your expectations yes but it's very low Roi to the point where I don't really push it it's it it's more so meant to be a background that maybe one day could be something but uh you know we sell at our cost basically and it's great branding people like it if I can only talk about five things in a week I'm gonna talk about the things usually that tend to be more profitable and this has a lot of repeat business so everyone that basically one out of every two people who buys banquil coffee for the first time will reorder on their own without being prompted at all yeah how much money would you say you spend on an average month these are for the viewers out there just to Peak their you know their interest is probably peaked on this right you gotta scratch the itch yeah what is a person like you spend per month let me just look it up let's do really well I'm just gonna look up my credit card bill I think my credit card bill alone is around 30 000 a month lately and that's personal expenses that's personal with some of our YouTube channel okay personal is probably this month I think is like 2025. I just bought a new bike I need 25 000. yeah oh um bought a new like a specialized bicycle recently I've been into pinball machines oh those are neat dude it's super cool it's a very powerful to have a pinball machine so I think my credit card bill is somewhere between 10 and 20K so I just paid off a little bit of it so right now it's 10. what limit do they give you uh this is just a personal one thing it's like 12 000 and what card do they give you I use the Sapphire card from personal cool the business stuff is separate and then my like my I have a house house about two and a half million so the mortgage I don't know it's like 12 000 all in oh no with property tax probably a little more yeah somewhere between like 15 to 30 000 a month okay I don't I mean I think what's interesting is about lifestyle inflation so as I told you my 20s like I lived on couches for a year like I literally try to bring a girl home and I was like oh that's my sleeping bag on the floor and then she left she left she left yes you just gotta own it be like yeah I did I did that's my sleeping bag no I did I was like hey it's a nice sleeping bag I got a pillow here I was renting a not even renting I was just saying my buddy's floor um but I mean I just lived so cheap that like actually getting to enjoy the money was a and I hate when people talk about this because it's like oh boohoo you couldn't spend it but it was it was to get to this wasn't right away it was like I was doing 2 000 a month and then it kind of it goes up as your income and net worth goes up and also the reality like I have 40 more years to live probably maybe 60. and like good years of active life probably 30. so I'm gonna try to [ __ ] use it and enjoy it like even yesterday I was talking with Tynan I want to buy a sauna I love saunas and like ice baths and [ __ ] like that but it's like 10 000. he's like dude you love that stuff like you're gonna use it all the time just go get it so I'll probably go back and get it next week Paul and what's that what is your business overhead per month the team cost alone is 2 million just a month yeah wow just there's our title right there yeah okay title good uh let's actually see here do you want to see what actually is more concerning I'm happy to share at a high level is like our profit last month was sixty thousand sixty thousand yeah sixty thousand that's nothing that scares me meaning that like if a few deals go bad or if marketing ends up [ __ ] up something like we could be very negative why was it so low that month because our operating principles got [ __ ] up so my operating principle I use the Amazon Approach at our company yeah which is at the end of the year I want zero net income and it means either we got distributions or we reinvested in ads we bought servers we reinvested all the money so if you look at Amazon for years they didn't make profit and it's because they reinvested it so what we would normally do is that we make a [ __ ] ton of money and at the end of the year there's like three million dollars or five million dollars left of profit and then we give it some to the team we always do a team trip so like last year past years ago Costa Rica or Hawaii or wherever we pay for everybody all expenses paid and then we buy all this stuff and so basically we taper it down Q4 this year we were trying to do it equally throughout the whole year so every month it's zero not like basically q123 was like make up a lot of money and then spend all of it now it's like every month is try to hit Net Zero so we're reinvesting all of it the problem with that is just like if anything turns like this recession hits potentially which I'm I'm trying to not worry about trying to worry about what we can control like it could turn all this upside down so I want us to have basically I want to get it to about two hundred thousand dollars in net income a month I like the Q4 approach because you want it off the books by the end of the year 100 so it's like then you then you know how much to spend versus every month you're trying to project something that like you say you can't control a recession you can't really control what's going to happen to the business necessarily so in terms of something outside of your control but you can't control Q4 100 getting down just for tax purposes yeah and it just gives us the other thing I'm noticing with businesses is that I don't know if people should be working at 100 capacity like you want to have the ability to like [ __ ] ups happen having a break yeah and so having more of a buffer where either like we'll have to move some on the teammate costs around reduce our marketing spend maybe try to increase the Top Line creates less pressure on the overall business so I'm going to try to get it back up to around quarter million a month and net income cool like cash flow cash flow and then where do you invest personally um I don't think I've ever showed this I'll show you guys oh what's the biggest thing you've ever wasted money on I mean we spent a million dollars for Black Friday at appsuma to get people to list their product in appsumo like if you listed a product we'd give you a thousand bucks oh wow and that was pretty much all uh I don't think we I think our Roi on that was maybe 50k G maybe maybe that was my call that was a bad decision uh why do you think it failed because it was just like we didn't understand the economics of how much having a product list and what the ROI is for our business to have them list I think that was number one I don't think we tested it really well said we have principles doesn't mean we're great at it yeah um so I thought that was pretty interesting uh I invest in a church that I lost half my money in that there was a they bought a church and they were turned into like a bar and I'm like oh this Bar's it's a popular bar in Austin but then the bar went out of business it's not guaranteed and then so they sold the church for half so I lost half yeah okay this is my personal finance sheet all right let's see hey it's so so vulnerable all right well this is wow this is incredibly thorough yeah oh wow why do you not just use mint because I like the intentionality of actually having to go and look at the numbers and then I feel I don't know mint just felt like it was a little lazy I felt like I have to actually every month so in two days on April was it June 1st I'll go and do this again I've done this every every month for yeah 10 years how you did your long-term investment Investments you're risky Investments yeah Rolex two hundred thousand I collect Rolexes it's actually what Rolexes do you have so I buy them in specific moments of my life to honor it as like a Memento but it turns out Rolex as like a annualized return is pretty [ __ ] insane like or it can be yeah it has over the last like probably 20 30. it's gone up in the past few months have gone past year has gone up insane yeah um I bought it like when I got engaged I bought this one when I became CEO I didn't but I don't get it so I just bought a Smurf but I'm not gonna get it until we hit 100 million Revenue I bet lately what I do now with the watches I'll buy two or three of them and then just when some moment happens with me and a friend so me and my friend got a house I got like we both got bad girls I bought I bought it for both of us um I thought you said bad girls got bad girls uh got a Rolex for that no the Smurf so I got my pilot's license so I bought an air King cool um I have another one when I get married again I already bought uh I can't I bought Pepsis to get my other friends but the Rolex has actually held their value pack well why don't you have a Daytona I feel like that's like the go-to yeah I bought one for Eamon our CEO the previous CEO uh I just don't have a good reason like to make up a new reason come here yeah yeah exactly well that was like those were kind of I don't know the other ones all have like specific specific things like I don't know I guess the Hulk was green Daytona I don't know I don't have an association with it yet that's cool but yeah I was basically and I don't mind putting a public I was basically trying to transfer crypto out and so all some watch Brokers will take crypto and so that basically reduces tax liability well that's good all right I think that was a great episode thank you so much experience of like a dating appsumo yes everything well thank you so much for coming on I'll link to your Channel Down Below in the description I guess we're going to be doing a video as well so I'll link to that video go and check that out uh and then down below in the description but also TX guys because they're a great sponsor of this episode yeah and you can also get a free stock at Publix and you can check out Noah because if you're a single female hey do your pitch do it there's one I guarantee there's there's one that's gonna all right if you here's the thing if you're a single female and you have a good personality and you love life I'm looking for someone just that's positive excited to be live hit me up on Instagram at Noah Kagan or if you have a friend that you think would enjoy interacting with me any race preferably female gender I have Noah Kagan holler at your boy thanks man appreciate you guys and uh if this works oh we got Daytona's if you get married from someone who puts uh you know where'd you hear about me iced coffee hour 100 all right so they're going to like what 30 cage it's like 30k if you get MSRP yeah then maybe like 15. it's really tough skin I've bought all mine second hand yeah like at Chrono Daytona yeah but you know what dude but you know what Federico talks watches might be able to help us out here is that the guy shout out him as well we've mentioned Federico so often on the channel because he's like our watch guy he's the guy he's using the plug yeah it's always a guy yeah Delray watchsupply.com okay thanks I'll see you guys thank you man