Meet The $100,000,000 NBA Players | From Rags To Riches

Hey guys. So Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson are former NBA players with a combined $100 million in career earnings. And now they host the All This Smoke podcast, which is one of the largest sports podcasts. And they've had guests like Kobe Bryant, Steph Curry, Kevin Hart, Shaq, and many more. In this episode, we talk about the overwhelming amount of money in the sports industry and how unfortunately a lot of it goes to waste. So if you're interested in episodes just like this, make sure to subscribe because we post a brand new video every single week. So, first off, you guys may notice we're using two different sized mic stands here because these are the biggest guests we've ever had on the podcast. The tallest the tallest guest we've ever had on the podcast. It's an honor. We have Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson, former NBA players. According to Google, it says you guys have a combined earning of over $100 million. They must be lying. Is that Is that true? That's what That's what Google says. A lot of money. Yeah, maybe. I didn't I didn't know it was that much. I I saw I saw 65 and 35. That's exactly what I saw. Yeah. I mean, that is absolutely incredible. And now you guys have a massive podcast, All the Smoke. It's one of the biggest sports broadcasts out there right now. And uh it's an honor to have you guys here on the ice. For thanks for having us, man. So, we got to talk a little bit about your backstory and how you got started in this, how you guys met, and a little bit about the business aspect of of coming up in the uh Jack and I met Jack got traded from Indiana, Golden State, where I was at at the time. and during the 2006 2007 season um like the end of January, February instantly, you know, we just bonded uh and made NBA history during that season with the uh you know, being the first number eight seed in a seven game series ever beat the number one seed. The very next season, my mom died from cancer like really fast within a month. And Jack was one of the one, one of the main guys that just took time away from the team and was traveling back and forth to see my mom. But every single day I was there, Jack brought me food, brought me weed, came and just sat and talked. Sometimes we didn't say nothing. Know he was just there for me. And that went from teammates to to a real life brother. And um fast forward, we both had 14-year careers. and went into the media space uh messing around with Fox and ESPN and we were getting a lot of positive feedback. We were at my house in the Bay one time and and kicking back and I was just like do a podcast. He's like what's a podcast? I was like I don't know but I know I don't know but people are doing it. Joe Rogan just made a lot of like I know we can drink and smoke and cuss and we couldn't do that on our other platforms. So, um, said, "Let's do it." And, you know, now we're about going on three years now and sports podcast of the year and, uh, it's just been a great experience and learning experience at the same time. Shout out Danielle, his sister. My sister came up with the name. Yeah. Great name. I'm curious, did you always think you would play basketball? I think you started with football. I was a football guy. Yeah, I was uh I was diehard football. Um, picked up basketball because I kept getting taller. Um, but I knew somehow someway one of those two sports were going to be my profession. And, you know, growing up in a household in an environment of drugs, abuse, violence, um, I just knew that my path was always going to be different. So, although I saw everything, you know, I was someone who started smoking, weeded about 14, but that was about as deep as I went into it. I was just really locked in on sports. And how about you, Stephen? Always basketball? Uh, I think yeah, it was always basketball. my city and my parents, my family saw something in me that I didn't know I had at a young age and um they put a basketball in my hand. Obviously, my family, they knew I had something different and they they kept me around and they kept me out of trouble. Like I said, they seen something in me that I didn't even know I had as a young. What age was that? How old are you? So, it started at five for me. When I was 5 years old, I played in the game at the YMCA. Score was 44 to 40 and I had 42our points at five. And so, you always been a ball hog? Yeah, I always been a ball hog. Uh-huh. And and around that time, everybody's like, "Hold up, this kid really has something." And from then on, my city treated me like I was a NBA prospect. Worked out that way. So there was like a time where you realized, "Okay, I could do this for a living. This is, you know, my most likely career." Yeah. I mean, yeah, because, you know, I fell in love with it and I and I knew I was good at a young age and, you know, playing basketball. Once you fall in love with the game, you start to fall in love with NBA and the players in the NBA and you start to have idols and you start to pattern your game after players and um and I started that like any other kid that played basketball. Nobody knew it would get to the NBA. You know, I end up going out of high school, but um like I said, people around me, my high school coaches, my parents, they knew that I was on my way there, but I didn't see What's it like getting a deal, getting your first, you know, bonus? I want to know where that money went. You guys know GQ, my first million. M I've seen you. Let's reenact a little bit about what you guys did with your first million. What was the first signing check? How did how what's the process like? How do they how do they find you? I'm going to give you this first one. I'm going to give you two. My first I signed with the penis sons. They gave me a check for $25,000 cash. This was in 97. Blew it all in one day. I blew it all in one day. Me and Mike Bby, his sister, and my little brother went to the mall and bought everything we could find. I think when I got back to the house, I probably had like maybe four or $5,000. Damn. They blew it all in the mall. That was my first check. But when I got when I I signed my six-year deal with the Pacers, uh, first thing I did was bought my mom and my grandmother house. Yeah. My first, you know, I was some a guy that came in on minimum deals, you know what I mean? So, my deals were 300, 400, 500,000, you know, the first few years. And to be honest with you, at the end of every summer, I was broke, you know, because, you know, financial literacy is something that's talked about often now, but you think late 90s, early 2000s, it wasn't talked about. you know, we talked about houses, cars, jewelry, women, everything but know how to save what we're all working for. So, um, with no background, I came from food, stamps, and drugs. So, I didn't really have any kind of representation that showed me, you know, okay, we'll put this away and save this and do this, invest this. So, like Jack said, when it came in, it went out even faster. So, it took me about maybe maybe going into year four or five maybe to really start understanding, okay, I'm gonna get this amount and put this aside. Um, I never really made any, no, huge, you know, I got my mom and dad cars. I never really made I got myself a house, but yeah, so my first I really didn't go. I wasn't a jewelry guy. Um, you know, like I said, I bought a house, bought my mom and dad some cars, and that was kind of, you know, kind of understanding like I have money, but I don't have a ton of money, you know what I mean? So, let's kind of see if we can space this out. And when did the money really start rolling in from the pro basketball careers? Those first couple years, I won a championship with the Spurs in 03. I was expecting to get paid after that year, and I didn't. They paid somebody else. So, I had to go to the Atlanta Hawks for the minimum and play again just to prove myself to get paid. So, um, and I got paid that following year in, uh, in Indiana. But it was a blessing. But like he said, it took me six about six years of my career to understand how to even think about generational wealth. Like when we was growing up, that word never even came around. Nobody in my family ever thought about saying generational wealth, right? So, it took me being around people and having financial advisors six, seven years of my career to start thinking about saving for a rainy day. Yeah. And I think mine my light turned on when I started having kids. So, I came into the league at like 21. I had twins at 28, so probably seven, eight years in was where I realized, okay, you know, there's got to be a future here. Although I hope my kids are, you know, great at whatever they do and they get scholarships just in case, you know. So, it started being less about me and more about obviously my kids after that. And that's what kind of turned the light on for me. So, when you were playing, what was the schedule like dayto-day? Like, how much training were you putting in? How much were you were you putting into like diet, exercise? It was different and all that. Uh it's different for everybody. Um and again, when we first came in the game, there wasn't there wasn't that kind of talk. Like I said, it's regular now. You know what I mean? Like during the summertime, we play good basketball and smoke weed. Like that was really that's how it work out. How every like I'd say majority of the NBA was and not till, you know, I was lucky enough to play until 2017. And you know it's to me it probably started changing around 12 or 13 where diet was important and you know all these other nuances of the game started coming in to kind of preserve your career. But like I said we not that we were old school but almost like know kind of the old school as far as it was basketball and we for us that was it wasn't weight training. It wasn't training all the time. It was just it just wasn't what it was at the time. And so it's so far advanced now where I have kids that are, you know, 13 and they're training, you know, three to four times a week now. And that was really more than I was training when I first got in the NBA. And how important do you think all those tangential exercises, practices make you at basketball? How much does that improve your game? Is it extremely important? It it works. I mean, you you know, anything you put hard work in until you gonna get something out of it. And especially with basketball, I mean, that's why Kobe the time. That's why LeBron's so great. want to spend a million dollars on his body a year just to be great. A million dollars on his body. That's a bargain maintenance. What does that even mean? Just maintenance. He has the right foods, the right trainers, you know, all year round, not just eating right during the season. Sure. You get like massages, chiropractors, everybody right on hand. That's why you see, you know, he's going into year 20 and he's been great his entire career. You know, a lot of we've seen a lot of great players play for a long time, but have we ever seen someone play at the level that LeBron has been able to play for so long? And obviously that's to what he does off the court and his upkeep. Um so I mean I think it's very beneficial obviously again it wasn't something that we were major into really toward the end of my career but um you know as like I said being a father of of twin boys who are teenagers now and I'm coaching them I can like I didn't work out for the NBA until I got to the NBA. That sounds crazy but I just didn't. Like now my kids are training and I can see the drastic improvement week by week, month by month, year by year. And I'm just like, man, I wish I would have had this when I was younger because training camp I didn't Yeah. I didn't have that and I still made the league and played 14 years. I couldn't imagine if this was something like my parents put me here and I knew what I was going to do and I had a regimen and all this kind of it would have been a whole another PL uh you know experience for me I think. So at what point in your guys' career could you call yourself like an actual liquid millionaire? And I I like I said like a year after I signed my big deal around seven years when I actually went through that first year of that season and was able to see you know million dollars in my bank account saved. That was the first time I ever saved a million dollars. Once I was able to put that away and knew I ain't have to touch it and I would still had checks and stuff coming in. I was able to say that. Yeah. But it don't mean Yeah. What was that like for you to see though? Uh it's it's a gift and a curse because you feel good but then you got people this now. Mhm. Oh no. Oh, you know what I'm saying? And and that that's always the sad part because there's a lot of people that feel they entitled now. Those same people that that was telling you, you go ahead and you do this. You know what I'm saying? But we didn't make it off told you souls and keep going. Like uh like uh Lar Russell say, we we made it off hard work and and just just meant for us to be here. But you know, that's that's the sad part about it. You know, don't have people feel like they're entitled to your money. You got to you know, you you take care of a village, you know, if you're the one that's fortunate enough to make it. And the hardest thing to do is, you know, being able to tell people no. You know, really the hardest thing to do is being able to tell family no. It's tough. You know what I mean? I can tell I I have friends that I've helped and and they're all appreciative. But I had never had a problem be like, "Okay, good." But, you know, obviously when you have to tell your family, no, that's a different level. And I think all people coming into money, not just athletes, have to understand that because again, everyone feels like they're entitled to, you know, if they've been around the whole time, they feel like they're entitled. So, being able to tell people no is is big. But same thing, six, seven years into the game. Um, and being able to save it and see it, you know, was important. But again, I still didn't have a plan with it. You know what I mean? So, although I saw it, I spent it. I said it once and I'll say it again. Henson razors have given me the cleanest and smoothest shave I've ever had in my entire life. Henson's a familyrun aerospace machine shop that has brought precision engineering to razors. The razors have a precisely built handle that securely holds the blade. This firm grip on the blade combined with an extremely precise extension means you'll get not only a safer but a cleaner and closer shave. And if you're interested in shaving money, you're only going to spend between $3 and $5 a year, which is way less than all of those other subscription services. No subscriptions, no proprietary blades, and no planned obsolescence. 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That's 100 free blades when you visit hnso shaving.com/iced coffee and use code iced coffee at checkout. Thank you so much, Hensen. And back to the podcast. Often does that come up that family or close friends ask for money? Um, man, it's been happening since I was a late teen. four times since I've been here. I've been at your house four times. Yeah. You know what? I'm actually kind of short on some cash. Is it like directly asking like, "Hey man, I'm really struggling to make rent this month. Can I please just have everyone might be a lie? It might be a tilting." Everyone has their own angles. Some people go right to it. Text you like, "Hey, can I have some money?" Some people ask how your day is going first. Some people call you Thursday and ask you and just to know because they gonna ask you Monday. They gonna set you up. So again, everyone has their methods and in rhyme and reason and asking and you know some people you say yes to and some people I just you know I ain't got it even if I do have it just cuz I just don't feel like giving it to you. So you're saying they'll try to buddy up to you ahead of time and then they act like a week later think like oh by the way man they plant the seed last week to ask us this week and then it's it's a different situation when you grow up around a lot of guys that you know that didn't make it and and didn't reach their potential. So the first thing they going to say is, "Oh man, you changed." Yeah, I did. Honestly, I was broke with you. I ain't broke no more. I worked hard and got and got myself some money and put my family in a different position. So, and and they try to use that against you as like a guilt trip. Yeah, like a guilt trip. Like, you change. You're right. I did change. I worked hard and I changed to get myself out a better position. But that's stuff you have to deal with in the in this in the uh areas we come from. You have to grow some tough skin cuz everybody going to feel like they're entitled uh to what you work for. Yeah. Now, this may be a little nosy, but is there like a specific example that you guys like think of when you think of people asking for money? Maybe it was like your assistant coaches like brother or something. Start this. I'm ready for that one. Say one. Say one. I want to hear it. I had um a church. I was uh before I turned Muslim, I was a Christian and my grandmother grandfather basically ran a church my whole life. So, I grew up in the church and as they got older, they couldn't run a church. So, they brought in another pastor from from outside to run our church. Well, he ended up stealing money, end up kicking my grandmother, grandfather church where the church was in debt, all kind of stuff. When I first made it, this guy told my mom, "I had a vision. I want to I want you I want you and uh Stevie, they call me Stevie. I want you and Stevie to meet me over here at this at the store at this abandoned store. I had a vision. I want to tell you about my vision." You fell for it, too. No, my mom did. Oh, no. I was at Roy D. I was rolling up. She was like, "Come over here." And um actually, I was She was like, "Come over here." What? Yeah. We'll come back to that. I want you got to come to me. We going to see what Reverend Washington want. He get to the place. He tells my mom he had a vision that God told him to for me to give him a million dollars to turn this uh uh broken down Safeway grocery store into a church. What kind of [ __ ] was that? Yeah. What? God didn't give me no vision for me to give for me to give you a mean of my hardearned money for you to build a church that I ain't going to never go to. But it worked. It did not work. Okay. No, he didn't get a dime. My mama cursed him out all that. Okay. But haven't talked to him since. Why? Why'd she curse him out? What What happened there? Cuz she brought you to him, right? Right. She But she didn't think it was that. Oh, she didn't think he was doing going that far. We ask for a million dollars. Okay. 15 20 help the community. Something like that. A million. You lost your rabbit. That's my son ask. That's my small ass. Uh we glanced over the the selling crack part. What? This crazy hearing that come from your mouth. What? Yes. Like it's a button up. You know what I mean? No, but it's a I'm trying to loosen up a little bit. It's good. We're the group to loosen up with. Growing up where I'm from. I was around it. You know what I mean? My P, my guy John Johnson, rest in peace, he used to take care of me. So, there's a lot of things I used to do for him involved in that to make money. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I was no different from everybody else in my neighborhood. Everybody did that. So, I was I was just blessed to have basketball to get away from it. For sure. Yeah. And uh that was the that's the biggest blessing. Yeah. What age was that at about uh probably from 14 to 18 19? 14. Yeah. How much were you making doing that? It depends. Um I wasn't the actual source. I was doing different things. So I You were like $300, $200. Like that was a lot of money. That's good money. I mean, no, that was I 14 15 years old. $200 go a long way. I get an ounce of weed for $50. Wow. That's going to last the rest of the week. And buy some pizza. Buy some shoes. And I go buy some shoes. Yeah. And I and I was getting two 300 like almost every day. I was helping my mom with groceries. My mom worked from 6:00 in the morning to 6:00 at night. So I never seen her. She was at school when she was at, you know, when she was home sleeping. We come home from school, she going to work. So I never seen my mom. Did I ever scare you? Did you ever almost get caught? You don't think about being scared? You think you surviving. So that's just the way of life. That's just the way of life. The bubble that little bubble where that's just normal. Yeah. I get that. Now, you mentioned earlier about the people who don't live up to their full potential and don't make it. Have you noticed anything within them that maybe they don't have the a certain quality or whether it was persistence or anything that got in the way that you feel maybe? It's a lot of them on social media right now and and I think the thing is with them is that they they instead of working and putting the work in, they want to say, "Why him and not me?" Yeah. You know what I mean? And it's it's a whole bunch of people saying that, but they don't know what you went through to get where you at. For sure. Right. So, that's that's that's the biggest thing. People like, "Why him and not me? why he made it. We did we did the same things. Well, you don't know what I went through to get here, right? And and that's just the biggest thing. Everybody, like I said, feel entitlement. Entitlement and it takes a lot of luck, you know. I've seen a lot of guys coming up that were better, just as good, and just, you know, made a wrong turn along the path, you know, and and that's why, you know, I thank my family and friends where I had friends die from overdoses and getting shot at and all kinds of other things. But like I said, although I was amongst that and in that, you know, I was able to stay on that path knowing that, you know, what my ultimate goal was and and you know what the people around me wanted for me too. So, you know, along with what he said, it just takes it it takes a lot of luck, man. You know, like there's only been 5,000 NBA players in the history of the game. That's only what 400 jobs, 300 some jobs a year. 400. Yeah. 400 job. There's only I would have thought it'd be like 30,000. There's only like 400 jobs each season. You know what I mean? in it. So, you know, the turnover, you know, you're probably bringing in 100 120 new guys every season and losing, you know, losing that many as well. So, it's just that a lot of luck goes with it. You know, the average career is two to three years, you know what I mean? So, to get past that and play double digit years and and be able to win, it was, you know, it was uh obviously a lot of God, a lot of hard work, but a lot of luck. Best athletes are in prison. I'm just I'm just keeping it real. Yeah. No, let's hear it. The best basketball players, the best football players are in prison. So if you you talk to any athlete from NFL to baseball to to to uh basketball, they got they know somebody Yeah. who was the coldest athlete they've ever seen growing up in my line that's in jail right now. Ask any athlete, they going to be like, "Yeah, I got a guy, man, who I grew up with. He in jail right now, but I'm telling you, he's supposed to be in the league." And every guy going to say that. And we all grew up with guys like that that made one bad decision. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And ended up in jail the rest of their life. Gosh. How does that mindset affect you today having that sort of uh you know growing up in that sort of environment? Does that stick with you or makes you humble? Yeah. I'm not going back. I'm not making no mistakes. I'm where we at right now being able to be in this space with Showtime and Madness podcast like we be morons to play oursel off this spot. You know what I mean? And we we talk about it all the time. We not Hall of Famers, right? We we are the guys that we are your favorite player favorite player, right? And we are guys that did the dirty work in the game. We're NBA champions, but we're not Hall of Famers. Normally, when you when you retire, Hall of Famers and all stars, guys that was on the commercials get the jobs and and and the stuff that we are doing right now. You know what I mean? But the roles have reversed because we are more uh reachable and touchable than those actual stars. Like, we are the guys that hang out hang out at the arenas and talk to everybody and sign all our autographs. So, with doing that, it's paying us back. You know, we we in this position now for a reason because we always treated people with respect and we treated everybody how we wanted to be treated. So that's how it works for us, man. I mean, that's Yeah. I mean, I just think obviously, you know, understanding where you're coming from is always important, but the goal is to make it out and and, you know, continue to elevate and, you know, that's what we've been able to do. Um, you know, again, the odds are were the odds were stacked against us and we were able to get out and and have a, you know, a long career. And then, you know, for us to be able to make the splash we've made post career um in in several different spaces, it's been it's been dope. You know what I mean? But again, to always understand where you came from and like Jack said, not wanting to go back. Yeah. Know that's the goal is, you know, obviously if we're going to go back, you're going to help, but you're not going back to live on the the level you came from. Yeah. And where do you learn how to get the skills in terms of of managing your money, investing it, making sure you're spending an appropriate amount? Experience was the best teacher, right? You know what I mean? Being being being broke in the summertime, you know, not having seeing my family not have when I know I'm making money, all those situations, being experiences the best teacher. And I had to go through it to understand how to save, to want to save, you know, to to to be able to be a crutch for my family. Like seeing them not have that made me focus on be able to be the breadwinner and be the backbone of my family. So knowing that where we come from, it's imperative that I be the best protecting provider that I can be and it and it starts with me making better decisions and you know just for you know like again getting again coming from you know food stamps and and and and not really having no money um to actually having money even if you have a a you know a situation in place with a financial financial advisor agent everything you never had nothing I don't there's nothing no one's going to be able to tell me to say I can't spend my money you know what I mean so to until you get to a point where you understand it's important to save and you and you really want to save. And I think that's what happens with a lot of athletes is, you know, a lot of people have, you know, the framework and and in place, but it's just like, man, we never had and like Jack said, my family needs this. I want this. I work my hard, you know, I want to reward myself for this. So, it's just like until you get in your mind that, okay, there's a reason for me, it was kids, there's a reason I need to start saving or okay, I'm old enough now. I want to start saving. Um, you know, hopefully that's when the light comes on. And then that's when you kind of start have to understanding and pull back and maybe change habits that you've been accustomed to for a long time. But just understanding this is a marathon, not a sprint. I mean, and I think when I first got money, it was a sprint. I said that [ __ ] you know, went out faster than it came in. So, just being older and, you know, you get wiser with age and I think that's when it kind of kicks in for people. It's interesting that the the switch flipped for both of you guys with responsibility to other people, like financial responsibility to your kids or to your family. That was the main driving factor for you guys be like, "Okay, got to start saving because I got to provide and protect." And I find that really interesting that it wasn't necessarily for yourself. You know what I mean? You're like, you know, you may realize in the summer, like you said, you have no money and you're like, "Oh my gosh, like, you know, I can't go to the fancy restaurant with all my my teammates because I I don't want to buy it or something." But it wasn't that. It was just responsibility to other people. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just you always feel a sense of responsibility when you come from nothing. You know what I mean? Because there are although there's a lot of clingers, there are a lot of people that really helped you get to where you're getting to, you know what I mean? Like feel like, okay, well, damn, you know, he trained me all those years for free or, you know, my mom and dad did so and so or this guy did, you know what I mean? So, you always have, you know, those kind of situations. So, we're always going to feel not indebted, but just like, okay, you know, I got it, you're going to have it, too, type way. So again, until you kind of just figure out what that balance is. If you're able to do it for a long time, that's great. But if you have to scale back, those are the tough conversations you have to have with people understanding, okay, you know, the money's not coming in the way it used to be coming in. So I'm going to have to scale back. That means, you know, your lifestyle is going to have to scale back. So it's a lot. And that that's a lot of again, a lot of athletes or musicians or, you know, people uh have to deal with that and you know, everyone deals with it different. There's this segment I remember on this this thing on YouTube. I forget what channel it is, but it's like the best and worst purchases that people make. It'd be kind of fun if you guys recollect it on the best purchase maybe or worse. Every piece of jewelry every piece of jewelry I bought is the worst purchase I've ever What about now? What about what you're wearing? The worst I still buy it, but it's the worst purchase I've ever It's the worst purchase I've ever had. I mean, I'm not I I'm not the guy. I don't have 10 cars. I got two cars. One of them cars you have? I have a I have a Range Rover and a Mercedes. And my wife has a a Range Rover. Um, we're not into cars and we don't have houses everywhere. So, every every now and then I buy myself a piece of jewelry, which I, you know, that's that's my thing. But the dumbest thing to do if anybody listening, it's not really obviously house, you know, to me. I'm not really a bad purchase. You know, no, I'm saying he's starting with the best. He started first. Oh, yeah. You know, but then you can do the worst. He said best. Um, yeah. Yeah, I mean house and again just as stability, you know, when you have to bounce around and move and live with family and all that kind of [ __ ] live with friends, like a house is important. So obviously that's, you know, that that that that's when I was able to buy my first house, I was like, "Okay, dope." Um, worst I wouldn't say it was first purchase cuz again, I'm not someone that's crazy with buying dumb [ __ ] It was just always buying everything for everybody. You know, we're going to dinner, I'm always paying for it. If we're going on vacation, I'm paying for it. So, I just think just always feeling like again, like I said early, obligated to take care of people because they don't have it. I think I waste a lot of money doing that. I'm really curious. Are finances and the payments getting better for athletes over time? Are they getting worse? Do you think you maybe had a better deal back then than new athletes would have now? Money is money is resources. Yeah, money is crazier than it's ever been. You know, these new TV deals that the deals are crazy now, but deals are going to get even crazier. So, I mean, obviously, and it and that kind of just comes with the, you know, as the game continues to evolve, you know, the the greats before us helped us get to a certain level and then, you know, Michael and Larry and Magic and took it to another level. Then the next wave comes, Shaq and Kobe and these guys take it to another level and the bronze and everyone. So, it continues just to rise. So, know the game continue. You know, you're going to have you got to have guys making 50 or $60 million a year playing basketball. You know what I mean? So, that's why I'm glad I got, you know, I got three more boys. cuz I got three chances to hit the lottery. The two, you know, I got three chances. So, it's just again, it just kind of comes, you know, with the evolution of the game. So, um, you know, although we made good money, you know, there's guys that are making more money in one season than we made in our careers, you know, so it's it's game has evolved. I was just going to ask like for a contract. I'm I'm a little curious. There's a usually a signing bonus, right? And then from there on out, no signing bonuses. Our contracts are fully guaranteed once we sign every dollar. When you hear signing bonuses, that's normally football because their contracts aren't guaranteed beside behind that besides that money they get. So you'll see a huge signing bonus and know you'll see a big deal. First of all, every deal you see for a professional athlete, you could probably cut it in half because of taxes. Oh yeah. And then agents, lawyers, a bunch of fees. So cut it in half. And then after that is where you kind of, you know, see what else is going on with your money. But yeah, it's not it's not necessarily the level that everyone may may think it's at. Um, but again, it's still it's still good money. All guaranteed. Every player in the NBA show, even if they come in on a 10-day contract, they're guaranteed for those 10 days. Even if they get injured, if something happens, they get into a fight, they get suspended. Well, my whole thing is I, you know, I signed a three-year deal. Um, you and I ended up winning a championship the first year of my three-year deal. The first year of my three-year deal, I won a championship and ended up retiring and I still got paid for the next, you know, two years. I wasn't even playing and I was being paid because that's, you know, that's the the one great thing about the MK is that money is guaranteed. What is it just like a massive bi-weekly check? Uh, every two weeks, twice a month, first and the 15th. That's pretty. So, you got But you got guys like Kobe that was making 30 million a year and he was getting 15. One check at the beginning and one check at the end of the season. Really? So he was just accepting one check of $15 million. That's crazy. Imagine that. A check of 15. What? Like I feel like I would be like putting it into this the machine and my hand would just be shaking. Crazy. And are there institutions or programs within the NBA to ensure that now people aren't going broke because it's a thing. I mean, everyone knows it's a thing. I mean, again, transition program. Yeah, there's I mean there's again there's there's things that are in place um to make sure guys don't and I think again this is new. So I'd probably say like the talk of financial literacy and really being cool is probably started in in the professional ranks probably started around 2014 15 16 in that space where locker rooms are talking about you know what you're investing in or have you seen this or have you seen that and that never used to be the talk in the locker room. So um you know this is it's newer so and there's more money now. So although guys are you know blowing money fast I just think there's more money to come and then there's more responsibility around teaching guys how to save your money and investing your money and it's a conversation now. So I don't expect to see this new generation of whether it be entrepreneurs, athletes, entertainers necessarily having the same struggles as you know people before did because again the conversation there was never convers you guys have a whole podcast on financial literacy pretty much you know what I mean there this is new you know what I mean? So the fact that it's cool and okay to listen to and okay to follow and you have great people who have experience teaching you the game it's less likely that you're going to [ __ ] up but some people still do. Yeah. What do you think of college athletes getting paid? Great. But I also think there needs to be something in place for for the educational side of it. You know what I mean? Again, most likely they're coming from nothing. I mean, these are scholar athletes that are, you know, signing these nice NIL deals. But again, if guys in the NBA are going, you know, crazy with money. Imagine, you know, you're 17 in college or 18 in college and you're getting, you know, 50, 100, $250,000, you know. So I just think there has to be some kind of education uh behind it and understanding and you know almost like a safe haven um you know where kids can go to kind of learn and invest and and start making their money work for them because they're getting you know obviously a leg up on people in the past cuz we didn't get paid until you actually make it and only 1% of people make it. Why do you think it's only recently that financial education is taking such a a priority? The internet. Yeah, the internet's more popular now. So there's probably always been people probably talking about it, but it just wasn't a big deal, you know, now. But it's out there and you can see it on social media platforms. And again, it's just a a cooler conversation. You know, saving money is cool now. Investing is cool now. It was, like I said, that was never anything talked about when we came in the game in the late 90s and early 2000s. Yeah. I feel like it's an itch that everyone has. You always want to know how much someone's making, how much money they have. It's just like something that's just so fascinating to everybody, but for some reason, it was just taboo for such a long time. Well, I just saw a thing today on Instagram as we were driving over here like the top earning athletes and LeBron was number one and I think he's making like 43 million from basketball and like 80 million in endorsements. Yeah. You know what I mean? In one year, you know what I mean? So, it's just like it's out there and guys are doing it and and and I love to see it because that means, you know, it's giving people who are coming up the aspiration, well [ __ ] if he can get it, I can get it, you know? So, I think it's cool. Yeah. I think endorsements and investments are starting to make up a lot more money. Absolutely. Yeah, it's just so fascinating to know that people could be making so much money, but like you said, like it just still blows my mind, but in the summer they'd be they have no money because like you think, like I said, every if you see a contract or or he's making this much a year, you cut it, you know, it's we're getting at least 45% is taken after taxes, fees, all that kind of stuff. And then once you get that money, you know, what are you going to do with it? So like you see these huge know pretty much a $200 million deal is like what are what are you guys going to clear after that likeund 100 maybe 100 million$ 110 million you know what I mean and then there's all kinds of fees and people you're paying in the lifestyle and so it's not although it sounds like that is a lot of money that maybe an extreme example but you know you see like a $5 million contract and then you're well they say you're making five million so some people feel like I need to live you know live like I'm making that much so you're living above your means so it's just a gamble with everybody is And what do you guys think? Cuz I I heard rumor that LeBron wants to create a new team here in Las Vegas. And Shaq, it's going to happen. I mean, we've been hearing about it. He told I mean, I'm the NBA knows nine out of 10 times want to be involved in a team going anywhere in the world, it's going to happen. I feel like it would immediately just be the most popular ever. I I think it would be hard to compete with. You're going to need I mean, you need need to be good. You know, I'm a I'm a I'm a California sports fan, so I'm you know, I'm a Raider fan. I'm a Niner fan, but I'm a Raider fan, too. And you guys got to win. Although the, you know, people are great and that you want to see, you know, you want to be entertained, you still got to have a put a good product out there. What's the first time hearing that? I like all California 49er fan. Yeah. No question. So, throw the Raiders out. You can't beat fans of both. I can't. Well, how you going to tell me what I can and can't do? What are you doing 49ers? But I like teams from California. You don't like that? Okay. So, well, he's a Cowboy fan, so he doesn't have no one else to root for. So, he gets salty all the time. Like, they're four and one right now. They're going to lose to the Eagles this weekend and it's just gonna go. We're three and two, but we're coming. We're on the way. We're on the way. See, we're on the way. Uh, so why do so many athletes careers only end after a few years? How competitive is it to stay in? It's very competitive because you got to think, is somebody always trying to come take your job? Always somebody coming in? You got faster. I wouldn't say hungrier. I think that's what keeps is the hunger. That's what kept us 14. Yeah. There's just always, you know, it's like what's next? Always someone there's there's young kids that are watching you guys that want to I want their spot. Yeah. You know, they're going to come want your spot. So, I think that's just that's human nature. Uh but it's just tough, man. That the odds are, like I said, there's only 120 430 guys in the league, you know what I mean? So, it's just like turnover every year, you're losing 100 plus guys. So, like how how can you pay? How bad do you want it? Got some guys that come in and get that little taste the first three years that had the money and can't handle it and feel like, you know, they get complacent. Okay, I got these three years. I don't care about being here no more. Nah, got guys like us that happy to be here. Play as long as we can. And do you, this is maybe the dumbest question ever, but if you win the championships, do you get a bunch of extra money or is that basically just like You get a team bonus. You get a team bonus. You got to split it between the team. You guys got about what? each player some guy. But like so you know like like Jack said, you want to take care of your train because the trainers and and and guys that help you stay throughout the season, they don't really get the bonuses. But yeah, I would say on average probably between 100 and 200,000 extra. Yeah, you get especially like if you team wins best record, you get more money. You know what I'm saying? You get more money like the coach wins u coach of the year. Everybody get a little more in the pot. How do you guys invest your money right now? Well, I'm involved in a cannabis company. I didn't want I don't want to be tied down into too many things. I have a men's grooming line called Hugh for every man. It's in Target. A fresh press juice company where we have three stores and we're also online called Vibe Health Bar. So, it's kind of our version of Starbucks but just with juice and healthy stuff. Betting company, Active Dreamers, where you know we make professional sport bedding. So, we make you know the blanket is the body and the pillow case is the head. Flowers flower you know we have a you know the number one black flower company Los Angeles. We serve all the a lot of A-listers. a lot of big A-listers. Um, tech, obviously tech is the wave, you know, so I have some tech investments. I also have a cannabis investment. Um, but just kind of learning on the fly. Again, like I said, yeah, learning on the fly and and and really, you know, to me, the best way to learn is, you know, I have a lot of older people in the space that I'll just bother and lean on and take a look at this, you know, take a look at this deal and what do you think and should I do? And, you know, you do that enough, you kind of start learning um, as well. So, how do you get into the cannabis industry and what's that like right now with the regulation? They're opening it up a little bit. How difficult is that? I got lucky. Um, my best one of my close friends was the CEO of our company, Al Harrington, he um was playing for the Denver Nuggets in 2010 and that's when it became legal and we were able to get a a heads up, a head start before everybody in the business. And uh being in this since 2010, we made a lot of mistakes. Made a lot of mistakes, but jump we got ahead of everybody. So to the point now where we were able to uh Al was able to basically be the face of athletes getting into the cannabis space and um you know he's done some great things as far as um creating generational wealth for different people as far as getting teaching people how to get licenses uh in the cannabis space and how to and how to create your own business and generational wealth. He's been a a good teacher in the cannabis space and um being able like I said being able to be uh in the space first in 2010 gave us a up on everybody. Yeah. And uh we was able to learn the game early to be able to be where we have our own dispensary dispensary in Detroit and um and we have different um row houses and uh have our flower in different uh cannabis uh dispensaries all across the country. Yeah. Now I heard uh it's difficult to collect money and a lot of credits cash business cash basically. I've also heard stories that you're not supposed to keep too much cash because it could be raided or robbed or so how do you how do you balance the two? Well, I mean that's a question that Al would have to answer. Um Jack just gets the brown paper bag. Yeah, I get the brown paper bags. You know what I'm saying? Al would have to answer those questions. But um he he is basically the guy if you have if you besides Matt, but it's a lot of guys that's in the cannabis space for sport-wise. I'm pretty sure a good 90% of those guys that went to Al and got game and on how to move and how to get into this business. I'm just curious if you guys could maybe say like like what percentage of your income comes from different sources. I want to know like how your business is broken down as far as income goes. I would say probably the largest amount of money I'm making is from our podcast. Um second is ESPN. Um and then outside of that investments probably start coming in. But, you know, multiple, you know, when you're doing startups and other stuff, you normally roll that right back into the business. So, there's not a ton of money yet coming from investments. And then, I mean, through this podcast, I've been able to do just a whole bunch of other stuff as far as hosting and working for other teams and a bunch of different stuff. So, like kind of miscellaneous would probably round out where the rest of it comes from. Easy. Easy. This show, this show is 80% for me. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Because um with the with the money from Biola, my cannabis company, I don't touch. Yeah. It goes back into the business. Yeah. Sure. And uh the money I saved, you know, I use that just to make sure my kids are straight and family is straightened to live. But this show is basically all I do. You know, I do speaking engagements every now and then. I do little stuff to make money, but this is really all I do. All I really want to do. I had no idea the podcast was uh was doing such big numbers. We eating, bro. Wow. We eating. Well, I think what what what was able to help us was, you know, our our obviously we love our partner, Showtime, but the first time around, we kind of hit us all in negotiations with our first deal. So, I kind of went out and learned the space and and and kind of started talking to other companies and in the midst of that, you know, really liked iHeart at the time. And then, you know, obviously my loyalty was to Showtime. So, when Showtime came back around and, you know, they started making more sense with what they were talking about, I was just like, well, how can we marry the two? iHeart can handle your audio and Showtime can handle the digital side. So, we were able to pretty much get double because we're getting now we're you know we weren't just before we were just getting Showtime money. Now we're just getting money from iHeart which you know so they pay you directly and you they basically have licensing over all of the content. So they have Yeah. So no so they have iHeart does the audio side of it and Showtime does the digital side of it but there I mean obviously it's a partnership but we get two different checks from two different companies. now when before we were just beginning one. How do you approach that? Is that before you started and you said, "Hey, we're about to start this podcast. Do you want in on it?" No, I just learned I mean again we this whole podcast came together randomly just with you know people know a friend connecting us with Showtime and and and we found lightning in the bottle. So obviously our first year we you know we didn't make very much at all but in our first year we won sports podcast of the year. So we knew coming into year two I was like all right we going to money this year. So when you know initially when again the talks had stalled I was just like okay well damn love what I'm doing over here but if they're not going to pay us we need to go find someone who's going to pay us. So again I was talking to Spotify, Apple, Amazon, iHeart you name it. I was talking to all these different companies and then when Showtime's like okay know let's make this happen. I'm just like okay you know my loyalty is to you but I also really love what they have done what they told me over here. Like how can we make these work? One was primarily audio and then Showtime is more of a visual company. We were able to, you know, be partners with both. Wow. How many followers did you have at the time when you did that deal? Well, I know we we started with Showtime Basketball. I want to say there was a couple thousand and now we're over 700,000 subscribers on Showtime. uh you so you know it's it's and obviously there's other shows but I you know with all due respect I think we were kind of the driving force behind you know kind of getting that wheel rolling and you know and then now it's helping us and everyone that's incredible. What do you think of Joe Rogan selling to uh to Spotify 100 million I think is but I I mean you know when you listen you listen to people some people say he under you know he should have got more. I think I think though he was one of the first to get such a deal at that caliber and when you negotiate at that like you're already getting the top. So there's there's no one. Pat McAfee too. Pat McAfee too got a nice deal. Got a great deal. Call her daddy was 50 million. 50 million. I feel like looking back at that level is set people like accept that you can negotiate at that level. But if someone had you know done a $100 million deal before him he's the biggest. He could have done 152. A lot of those people own 100% of their IP too. Oh wow. Yeah. I think the day they announced they signed him, I think their stock went up by like a billion dollars. It was something nuts. So when you take his value to Spotify some people said like he should have got more. You know what I mean? Because he is is a movement himself. Um so you know he's definitely you know a pioneer in this space. I haven't seen the episode but I know he the man in the podcast man. Obviously he's good. you know, you aspired us, you know, to to get to a level like that where, you know, you could be set for life financially from a podcast. Who would ever thought that? Yeah. So, what's your plan to continue growing the podcast? Live shows. Yeah. Live show just creativity, you know? I think I was talking to our team cuz we just started season 4 and I was just like, I feel like we set the bar in this sports space. Although we weren't the first, we set the bar and I feel like not that everyone's caught up, but now they're in the same they're on they're in the same book, you know? So, how this, you know, season 4, how do we take it to another level? Um, obviously more fan engagement, more live experiences, more you know, access to us. We're traveling around doing a lot. You know, we're here right now sitting with you guys and we're, you know, we're doing NASCAR and Bubble Wallace this weekend. Thanks to our friends over at Money Line, Ty Gibbs, shout out to Money Line. They make the dreams happen, but you know, we got a partner in Money Line, but just continuing to try to, you know, give the fans what they want. You know, obviously we feel like, you know, we're the core of our show, but being able to get top name guests is important, too. Uh, so we continue to to try to do that, but you know, like Jack said, live shows, merch, uh, more fan engagement. Um, animated, we have an animated series coming. We have a cannabis line coming. Yeah. Um, so just continuing to just, you know, not just touch this space, but, you know, how does this, you know, how does this cover our entire ecosystem and just be able to find different streams of revenue in different spaces through one thing? Yeah, I do the commentating in uh with boxing now. So know it's it's a lot of stuff that's that's building from our podcast that we take advantage of. Yeah. So been a blessing. Yeah. So I got a question. If you guys could draw a pie with three different pieces of the pie, one is the environment in which people grow up in. One is hard work and one is natural skill. How would you draw the percentages as far as if you want to be the best that you can be in the NBA, how big each slice of the pie occupy? Natural skill is the whole thing to me. I don't agree with that. But go ahead and do your pie first. I'm not going to eat your pie. I'm I'm I'm I'm eat my own. I'm going to say natural skill. For what percentage? All of it. For me because everybody has a talent and everybody has a skill. Everybody don't feel figure out what their talent and skill. So once I found out my skill was basketball, that's everything to me because that changed everybody life that one game. Basketball did everything. Basketball is the reason why I'm here. All my family's living good, why I'm living good. Basketball is the source to all that. So having that talent, putting that all into all together, that's the reason why I'm here. Without that talent, I'm not here. So you just have one pie, no slices in it. Hey, I I got that pie, ate that pie, and I'm going to make other pies for other people. Now, just just to play devil's advocate real quick. Real quick, cuz I know you want to answer, too. What about like you know, the Ball Brothers or uh you know, the son of uh LeBron James and stuff like that or Shaquille O'Neal's son. It's like, you know, they grew up in an environment. I feel like that culture played pretty hard into their ability. They still might not make it. They might get to the NBA. They might have might not have a great career. They might they in a position where their dads can force it for them. So that might help, but still they have to go out there and LeBron can't go in the game. That's what you're born with. That's skill that you have. That's You know what I mean? When when your dad goes away, if you have that skill, you can have you can you can still survive. But if you go away, if your dad goes away and you don't have the skill, you're gonna be looking for help. Um, I would say 10% is environment I grew up in. Um, never letting that hinder me, but also realizing that made me the dog I was and had the mentality I had and had the chip on my shoulder. I would say 40% is natural ability. I was just a super athlete when I was younger. Like basketball wasn't even my best sport. I was a football player. I played baseball. I ran track. So, I'd say 40% is natural ability. And I'd say 50% is hard work. I mean, there's a lot of guys that are talented as [ __ ] but don't work, you know? So, where are they going to go with that? So, interesting. I agree. I feel like, you know, obviously natural talent, you have to have natural talent. You know what I mean? Like, you have to have some talent. But, I mean, what are you going to do? I remember Kobe said, like, what are you going to do with that talent now? Like, how hard are you going to work? How much do you want it? I feel like some people are very talented, but don't really want it. And then you can tell. Yeah. And for you, Graham, if you're answering this as far as success in business and entrepreneurship, what are the pieces you said? So, you have natural skills. So innate just like you know your smart person uh or hard work and then the environment that you grow up in. Oh jeez. I'd say probably 50% natural skill because you have to like really be into what you're doing and like both of you it seems like you were just yeah you were born and so that gives you the ability to work hard which I would say is probably another 30%. And then% 20% is the environment. But so I think hard work and and natural ability could could overrun your environment. Like it could out I agree. It could outweigh that. It could be it could be 5050 with those two, right? I agree. So that's what I think. What about you? What do I think? Yeah. Uh, as far as business, I'd probably say 50% hard work, 40% natural skill, and then 10%. That sounds like my pie. You know what? You know what's we all got the same circle around all our pies. Yeah. All right. There we go. Yeah. And I want to hear some hot takes. You guys have very, you know, not much time right now. If you guys were to say top three athletes to ever exist. Top three athletes to ever exist. Y, you know, actually, let's say like sure to ever exist. Yeah, let's say it. Yeah. For me, I'm going three. I'm three, right? I'm going Muhammad Ali, Serena Williams, Michael Jordan. I'm going say LeBron James cuz I'm a golfer, so I say Tiger. Okay. Um Tom Brady. Tom Brady. Number one. He's just in the mix. Okay. So those are all Yeah. Graham. That's interesting. I was I would say Tiger. Kobe. I don't know for a third though. Um, I'll just take the top two for now. What about you, Jack? I would say, this is cliche, but I'll say Bo Jackson. Oh, good call. I would say Michael Phelps and I would say uh Michael Jordan. I'm not great. And you got to think, too. I mean, you think like Bo Jackson, professional athlete in two real sports. Any parting thoughts that you want to mention before we wrap up? Any advice to people watching? Any final thoughts that you want to get out there? Messages? No question is a dumb question. Okay, that's just what I No question is a dumb question. You don't know something, don't be afraid to ask. I learned that as I got older. And one thing about me, I never listen to reply. Listen to understand what you've been told. That's interesting. I mean, if you want it, you got to work for it. I think at the end of the day, I think, you know, everyone sees the end product and thinks, "Oh [ __ ] it should be easy." But, you know, gets in the grind and and they're not cut out for the grind. So, whatever you, you know, you're going to get it, get out, whatever you put into it. Um, know people have to be serious about their craft and if you love it, you got to put your all into it and manifest it and believe it and and and and every day get better at it. Oh, thank you guys so much for Thanks for having us, man. Thanks for having us, man. Thanks for having us, bro. Thanks for having us, bro. All right. Until next time. With that said, you guys, thanks for watching. Till next time. Uh, before I forget, I got to get a