Medal of Honor Recipient Kyle Carpenter on the Stoic Virtue of Courage | Daily Stoic Podcast

That moment of waking up, my first thought was completely opposite of the last one that I had and I thought, "No way. I cannot believe I survived that." >> Our first guest is the only only the second living Marine since Vietnam to receive the Medal of Honor. >> Corporal William Kyle Carpenter should not be alive today, but the fact that he is gives us reason to trust that there is indeed a bigger plan. >> When the grenade detonated, his body absorbed the brunt of the blast, severely wounding him, but saving the life of his fellow Marine. >> All I know is that I want to make the greatest impact on the world that I can with the time that I have. >> You don't know what life is preparing you for. All you can really do is be ready for something that you can't even conceive of. >> That perspective, which if I had to summarize my journey in one word, it would be that. Foundationally, it's well, I'm here when I thought that I wasn't going to be. >> We don't think of courage as like endurance, but it's that, too. >> I can hang my feet off the edge, I can work on standing. If I can stand, I can take a single step. If I can take a single step, I can walk. If I can walk, I can run. >> You can do real hard [ __ ] Look at where you were when you started. Look at where you are now. That's proof of concept. Do you know the story of Tom Hudner? Do you know who that is? He won the Medal of Honor in Korea. >> I just spent the past 2 days with him. Or not not him, his son. His son. >> No way. >> Tom Hudner? Yeah, absolutely. >> Really? >> Yeah. He is a exceptional individual, just like, you know, his father and um >> Was his son in the service, too? Or what's his what does his son do? >> No, he was not. Um but yeah, two very successful sons and um now he helps with Medal of Honor related endeavors and just helping us in our mission, but yeah. >> Really? >> Um I mean, if if you'd like a connection, if you don't already have one, he would >> I Well, cuz I saw I just read this book about him and I saw that the picture was taken by Tom Hudner Jr. And I was like, oh, so it's I I didn't know the son existed. But, I'm fascinated by the story. It's It's in the book that I'm doing now. And >> Wow, that How crazy. >> Yeah, so for people don't know, he he's a pilot in Korea correct and he's a wingman to Jesse Brown who's the first black pilot in the Navy. And Brown takes a shot to his oil tank has to crash in this field in the Chosin Reservoir. And then as they're circling he sees that he he doesn't get out of the plane cuz you couldn't eject they're too low. This is the crazy thing. So, right right before they took off the skipper of the ship goes, "If anyone goes down he's like, I'll court-martial anyone who tries to rescue them because he's like, we can't afford to lose two planes and two pilots." >> Right. >> Right, he's like, "Wait for a helicopter. We will send a helicopter. I don't want anyone trying to rescue anyone." And then Hudner sees his friend go down and immediately disregards the orders and crashes his plane in this snowy field in the Chosin Reservoir and attempts to rescue Brown from the plane who's like hopelessly stuck in there and and Brown's last words are, you know, "Tell my wife I love her." >> I wanted to ask you about it cuz I'm I'm fascinated with this story like that decision that decision to do the craziest thing that a person could do. You're one of the handful of people who might have some insight into that thought process. >> I mean, what a small world and how how unbelievable that this is the first time to discuss >> many questions about this now. >> And I just spent two days with him. Um, but, you know, obviously it was a a split second decision out of love for his friend and fellow service member. But, as I've examined just, you know, for me personally, my my journey in those 5 seconds on the roof, you know, I feel like uh just like a championship on the football field or getting an A on a test, very few things can be executed in the moment that they are without planning or thought or preparation before. >> Yeah. >> And so, I feel like although the entire world only examines those 5 seconds on the roof, you know, I feel that, you know, one, I was just, as a recipient, and all of my fellow recipients will say, we just happened to be in that moment in that time and place, and we had the opportunity to step up the way we did. >> Right. >> I think that's the beautiful thing about the human spirit is that anyone can step up in a time of need, no matter how how small or or how large of an act. But, those moments on the roof were a culmination of the love and support throughout my life that I received from my parents. And I think a lot of people think, oh, Marine Corps, combat oriented, you know, hardcore, what whatever you think of when you think of Marines, good or bad. Everyone thinks it's all about training. >> Yeah. >> And every day we're just throwing grenades around the place, fake grenades, and hey, who's going to jump on it? And >> Like like fumble recovery drills on a football team. You're just You're practicing this thing over and over again. >> but, >> Like is that a thing that you'd actually Like was there ever a moment where that was a thing you had to consider doing? >> We do training with grenades, and I think it's just uh a byproduct of being in uniform and training with grenades that that you think about things like that and just in general going into combat, am I going to be able to step up the way that I need to? Am I going to you know, step up instead of back down when the bullets start flying? Uh but it it was never a a tangible moment of training. >> I guess that's what I'm curious about. Is it is it a conscious decision or does it is it something more like the training and the moment and the stories and the tradition Okay. >> Correct. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Sometimes you get hit with a grenade and you lose your train of thought. But, uh >> We have it so everyone >> many people think it's training, but an amazing aspect of the Marine Corps, especially through boot camp, is through the difficult moments of training, when you're worn down, when you've been out training and you're tired and you're hungry and you've been exposed to the elements for days on end, your drill instructors, it's a very intentional part of boot camp that in between those moments, they'll sit you down and they teach you about the history of the Marine Corps. >> Right. >> Those that came before you. Those stories of unfathomable courage. I mean, I remember sitting there in boot camp during the crucible, our our big final event before we received our Eagle, Globe, and Anchor. I believe I speak for all of us when sitting there, I just thought I mean, who could who could do something like this? And now I understand more, not for my action, but just from from being a Marine and having that time in service, but uh just unfathomable acts of courage from all branches, but Marine Corps aside, just those that at 17, 18 years old in World War II when they knew that the chances of of making it onto the beach, making it to the beach even, and then past the breach and and surviving what lay ahead were such a minuscule chance. >> Right. >> And when those doors opened, they charged forward anyway. >> Right. >> And you know, I think a a lot of people just in conversations I've had or just, you know, the love and support that I'm I'm so humble to be given, you know, sometimes it seems like oh, Kyle, the first guy in history that jumped on a grenade. But you look back at every conflict and there are those that that you know, grenade or not not only went above and beyond, but gave that last full measure of devotion for each other or for a purpose greater than themselves or or any individual. And so that's why I say I was just happened to be on that roof and in those moments. >> Right. >> Um but again, it was a culmination of so many different things in my life or my family, coaches on the athletic fields growing up and I think ultimately I'm just so thankful that I reacted the way I did. Now, granted, I wish I could have taken every bit of that grenade, but at least I can live my life and not always wonder why I didn't or if I could have. >> Why do you mean you wish you took every bit of it? >> Uh because the Marine that I was with, my best friend, he was injured as well. Uh so I wish I could have taken every bit of that blast, but you know, I still I feel like gave my best effort. And so now I can live my life not wondering, but just being proud that I was able to step up as the Marine and the friend that I needed to be in that moment, but also going back to, you know, those moments in boot camp to have tried my best to uphold the legacy and the the path that the Marines that came before me laid with unfathomable amounts of courage and sacrifice. >> Yeah, I feel like the tradition is a huge part of it because you know, your average person doesn't feel like they're maybe capable of doing that thing. And I think a big part of the training is not like, "Hey, how many pull-ups can you do?" And how many How far can you run and how much can you lift? Although that's obviously all part of it, but it's it's in the process of putting you through that and accepting you into the tradition that you feel like suddenly you're capable of or that you're an heir to this thing. Even though you're not actually related, you're all part of this lineage that goes back and includes every single one of those people. >> Perfectly said. Yes. >> And so in that moment, are you thinking, "Hey, this is my job?" Are you thinking, "This is my friend?" Do you think anything at all? Like in the book it makes it sound like you're kind of just a thing happened and then you woke up after and you're like, "Where's my face?" Basically. So I'm just curious how much thinking is going on. >> Well, I should have thought, "I'm about to kick this thing right at right back off the roof." Uh, but strangely, and I appreciate you having my book and and reading it, but um, strangely, I don't remember any of the moments leading up to the blast. Now, unofficially, which uh, you know, the Medal of Honor that that was awarded to me, although it's it never is and never will be an individual award or recognition, but uh, that came from over 2 years and almost 300 pages of investigation. >> It's not a thing they give lightly based on uh, one person's opinion. >> Correct. You need multiple opinions, you need forensic blast evidence. And so, you know, they talked to me in the very beginning and I really had nothing helpful to contribute. But even if I did, I think it's important to note that if you are injured in whatever incident they are investigating, you can't be an eyewitness. Cuz if you have any sort of head trauma, obviously your facts might not be that accurate. >> Right. >> I safe to say I had some head trauma. Uh but I don't you know, unofficially I would say the only thing that I remember before wasn't really anything cognitive. It was just, you know, knowing how you and your body feels. I remember almost as if I was an empty shell. I I I don't have any visual recollection. I just I I felt like I was on my knees and my body was falling forward. And then I felt like I got hit some got hit in the face really hard. Uh but but my actual kind of somewhat coherent thoughts followed the blast. And I remember being extremely confused and my vision was as if I was looking at a TV with no connection, just white and gray static. >> Yeah. >> My ears are ringing extremely loud just as they are this very moment that we're doing this podcast and >> Oh, they just they just remain ringing always. >> Yeah, yeah, which is you know, can be daunting at times, but just got to remain focused and you know, every day is driving on driving on for the mission. Uh but after I felt like I got hit really hard in the face, that was followed by extreme confusion and disorientation. So much so that that I was trying to just to get a grasp of where I was and what happened. And I've been in Afghanistan for over 4 months now, and so my first thought was okay, I'm pretty sure I was in Afghanistan. The last thing I can remember I was on a roof, but what could have injured me this bad on a roof? And then I thought maybe I got off of the roof, went on a foot patrol because the vast majority of our injuries over there, at least from my unit at the time, was stepping on IEDs. >> Right. >> Cuz we were so far out in rural territory behind enemy lines, we had to get helicoptered in, and we had no vehicles. So everyone thinks military nowadays we always have vehicles to roll around in, but very few roads to where we were, and the roads that were there were more pedestrian walkways, paths for a livestock, so you don't have to go through the fields and damage crops. And uh they wouldn't support heavily armored vehicles, and uh before we got there, they had tried that, and the banks of the river would collapse, and Marines were drowning from being trapped in these armored vehicles. So we only had feet everywhere we went, you know, traditional Marine style. >> But the part of the tradition also >> Right, yeah, exactly. And so I thought maybe I went on a patrol, stepped on an IED, and just the roof is the last thing I can remember. And though that thought process was interrupted by of course, what I thought was my buddies messing with me, because Marines and service members are experts at uh messing with each other. It's kind of like our secondary job. >> Sure. >> And I thought, man, you know, whatever's happened, I can't believe in this banged up state that I'm in, that my buddies are pouring warm water all over me. And that fragmented piece allowed the other ones to kind of fall into place, and I realized I Oh, man, whatever's happened, my buddies aren't messing with me, and that's not warm water. I'm I'm profusely bleeding out. And so, at that moment, you know, while getting just I I I would say tired, but that would that would be an understatement. >> the life leaving your body. Just >> just drained draining to and from your core. >> Right. >> Just hard to describe, but at that moment, when I realized that, I knew that was it. I thought about my family, how devastated my mom was going to be when that government car pulled into the driveway or those two Marines in uniform knocked on the front door to tell my family I would not be coming home alive. And lastly, I said a quick prayer for forgiveness for anything I had done wrong in my life, and I faded from consciousness in the world for what I thought was the last time. And >> thought you were dying? >> I knew certain without a doubt that that was it. And, you know, I couldn't feel my face except for it to get a little graphic here. I remember when I first woke up, I was trying to I was trying to feel my mouth or my jaw with my tongue, but nothing was there. And And so, but these final moments, you know, I was kind of cuz I couldn't feel my face. I I I really didn't have that deep of sense of what was going on, but I remember kind of a crying a little bit in my head, not because it wasn't why am I here, you know, why did I even do this, why am I in this position? It was more just you know, I just turned 21 over there on my birthday crawling through a field getting shot at thinking, man, I hope one day I can get my first cold beer beer, you know. >> Yeah, legal. >> Yeah, but I just turned 21 and it was more just um >> the heaviness of the moment >> of the moment and maybe in some sort of subtle way just knowing that you know, this is it and I the uh I just and I guess I I don't get to experience the rest of my life. >> Sure. >> But I now in hindsight I still wouldn't change anything because I I truly felt in my heart and I knew and I saw every day that we were there just helping a fellow struggling human being. You know, with that said, the the the world faded away. I thought that was it and to my uh very unexpected and pleasant surprise I woke up about 5 weeks later and instead of a hot dusty rooftop, it was a strange hospital room with Christmas stockings hanging on the wall beside my bed and about 3 or 4 inches of snow outside on my window pane. But that moment of waking up, my first thought was completely opposite of the last one that I had and I thought no way. I cannot believe I survived that. Uh and but that moment, you know, although I had 3 years left of recovery, 40 to 50 plus surgeries, that moment really began this journey of self-discovery, purpose, and perspective that I've been on. Uh it's crazy to say, but you know, about 15 years now. >> What's crazy to me is like, you know, you read the Medal of Honor citations, whether it's for Honor or for you or for anyone, there's like the split-second decision, right? To go on the grenade, to crash the plane, to do the thing. And that's what we call courage, right? Like that moment. But I mean, you're talking about like your ears are still ringing from the event 15 years later. Like that's a day-to-day thing that you have to deal with. I think about he crashes the plane, then he he basically wakes up and he's like, "Holy [ __ ] I survived the landing." It might not work, right? And he, you know, so he kind of wakes up and then then he's like, "Well, [ __ ] now I'm down here." Right? And now that's actually the hard part. >> Surrounded by 100-plus thousand >> Totally. Yeah, he's he's at the sprint across this field. All he has is a service revolver. Even Even if he had just crashed in Alaska, it would've been bad. Like he's exposed to the elements, like he could've frozen to death. And so now And now the hard part be like now the actually courageous, difficult thing comes now. Like what's he going to do? And he Obviously, he's not thought through what an I crash and then a helicopter pilot will come Like he's not thinking about the I think why it's courage is that it's this leap into the dark. You don't know how it's going to work out or that it's going to work out. In your case, you're going on the grenade, you don't know whether it's going to you're going to get there in time or not. You don't know whether you're going to survive or not. And then you're certainly not able to go like, "And then 3 years in the hospital and then learning to do this again and feeling this again." We almost overemphasize which is the most impressive part of the experience. Like what's the real ordeal? Is it the raising your hand? Is it, you know, that part or is it all the stuff that comes after? We don't think of courage as like endurance, but it's that, too. >> That was uh that was very well said, Ryan, and I could not agree more. And I appreciate you recognizing that because you know, I'm most proud of what I've done after the blast. And whether that's the battle through recovery or just, you know, all the way to the marathons or just, you know, continuing to push myself into that unknown. >> There's this line from Seneca that I think about. He says, "Sometimes even to live is an act of courage." You know, just the the >> Absolutely. >> the keeping going. Like, again, we think of the courage as these sort of punctuated moments and be a battle or the firefighter that runs into a burning building or whatever. Um and that's obviously one part of it, but then the other part is the waking up the next day and the day after and the day after when you're dealing with the consequences of those couple of seconds >> Yeah. >> did the thing. >> Yeah, absolutely. And when I experienced those final moments and to wake up to this unexpected bonus round that I'm living now, of course there are difficult days. There are long, you know, dark, scary, and painful nights through the hospital. And even out of the hos- hospital, life is hard. It's a hard-earned journey. But to have experienced those final moments and to wake up, I can't help but to not try to make the most of it. >> Yeah. I talked to one of the Vietnam POWs, >> Mhm. >> and he was saying, you know, any morning you wake up and the locks on the inside of the door, that's a good day. >> Wow. >> cuz they spent 7 years with the lock on the wrong side of the door, right? They can't get out. And I think that's you appreciate that, it makes sense, but I do wonder like how how transferable and sustainable is that perspective, right? Like so you have this moment of courage to do this thing, like one thing you could take from that is like anything that's not getting blown up by a grenade is better than this, right? Or anything is better than not getting blown up by a grenade, but I imagine you're still like, what the [ __ ] is this traffic? Like how how quickly does just the regular frustrations of life kick in or do find you're able to maintain that perspective? >> No, that's that's a great point and yeah, of course, you know, little things in life that uh shouldn't, you know, still kind of get to you sometimes. But I think for anyone, grenade aside, I think it's extremely important to always work on and and be able to refocus on that perspective. >> Yeah. >> The things that that really matter. And, you know, just from the the stoicism side of things, to understand what's in your control and out of your control. That's been extremely helpful for me because throughout my recovery, you know, I went from being in the best shape of my life, carrying a machine gun in Afghanistan, you know, 18-minute 3-miles and just and always having a plan as a Marine, whether that is what today holds or what this specific patrol holds, you know, we knew what routes we were taking, we knew our our points that that we needed to hit and what village we were going to and what the mission was. But when I woke up, it was complete opposite. >> Yeah. >> You know, at first I didn't know if I could make it to that next breath. And I remember just laying there on my side and you know, the beep all the beeping machines are so annoying. It's It's uh it gets kind of you know, starts to wear on you almost and you know, in the beginning when my pain spiked or I was having difficulty with whatever it was uh and the the machines will start going off and then you got to get your stuff back under control and you got to calm your heart rate. And so at first I didn't know if I could make it to that next breath or not, which the machine was helping me at first, but when I got off that didn't know if the 40 or 50 surgeries every single one you know, going into it you do the pre-op, you're there at 4:00 a.m. you do the pre-op, you do the surgery. Some of them were nerve uh transplants or transfers um at which take two to four months to make that connection regenerate. So you have to stay persistent and you have to keep working at it even though nothing is happening you have to just hope and trust that your hard work and your focus and dedication will eventually allow that nerve to reconnect, but you know, then it was I didn't know if the next surgery would take and and another aspect is when something catastrophic happens or you face extreme adversity you know, a tough lesson is that the world keeps spinning. >> Yeah. >> Understandably so obviously, you know. >> People care a lot after it happens and then they go back to their lives. >> Yeah. Which uh which you know, I understand it's the way it is, but all of my friends who I who didn't go into the military were living their best life in college and all of my buddies who thankfully did not get injured were still in Afghanistan together operating, but my life was a complete you know, unknown, I guess. >> Yeah. >> Um and >> 21, 22-year-olds are not great at patience and being told what to do. You know, and you're just like, on top of all that, you're just like, yeah, you want to go back to your life and you can't. >> Yep. Yep, I guess as time went on, you know, I had to I had to grapple with that. >> Yeah. >> And you know, although I realized that you don't have to have a perfect plan. You just have to be willing to say, uh you know, my I guess mantra kind of became just you know, keep working hard, try to be a good person, uh do the best you can and help help others around you and, you know, it's got to uh it's got to to lead you somewhere good. It's got to lead you to that light at the end of the tunnel. >> I think that's right cuz look, I I wrote this book, The Obstacle Is the Way, and I think people it's been it's meant something to people and I think, you know, generally the idea is true that there's an opportunity in everything. But it that can feel very flippant to someone who, you know, just found out they have cancer or somebody who uh just got blown up by a grenade. Like, I I I thought you have this you actually have this beautiful note in the acknowledgements that really hit me, uh which I think is is very well said. You said uh the lessons of life, silver linings, and perspective that I share in this book did not come easily or quickly. At times, silver linings only become apparent because I was forced to search through the darkness and perspectives only became clear after years of deep thought and personal growth. These lessons originated from pain and suffering, but sometimes the most difficult struggles teach us the most beautiful lessons. Like, I imagine in in many ways the the recovery in the hospital was the most challenging part personally, emotionally, physically cuz it not just goes on and on, but you have time to think about it and feel sorry for yourself and be angry and hope and despair. You like now all of a sudden the the real emotions and the struggle and the having to figure out what this means and what you're going to do about it, that's like your problem in a way that it's not 5 seconds on a roof in Afghanistan. >> Yeah, absolutely. The the mental side of it, emotional side of it, but also how I'm going to how am I going to do buttons now, which is maybe I went from the town that be my enemy to buttons being my biggest enemy now, but uh so that the physical side of it as well. Uh but you know, like so many things in life, there there is two sides to that story. There was the dawn thing, the unknown, the the difficult side of it, but there was the side that although it's it's kind of heavy to be told, "Hey, you have 3 more years left here for us to kind of put Humpty Dumpty back together again." Uh but that also gave me time to think about all of that. >> Right. >> To think about that perspective. Uh which if I had to summarize my journey in one word, it would be that because >> Perspective. >> Correct. Because I could look at you know, it's always the foundationally it's well, I'm here >> Yeah. >> when I I thought that I wasn't going to be. >> be. >> Correct. And some of this came from those I recovered with. >> Yeah. >> Quadruple amputees, triple amputees with their newborn sitting on what's left of their legs, you know, zooming off to therapy every day with a smile on their face. And so, you know, it gave me the time to think, "Hey, my arms might be super banged up, but I still have them." >> Yeah. >> Most of my body might be shredded to pieces, but I still have two good legs that can get me up and inch me forward. And it's it's not about the limbs. I I think just what I'm what I'm saying is it's about the mindset and looking at what you have compared to what you don't have. >> Right. >> And I think that comparison it can do wonders for you and take you amazing places, or that comparison can become the thief of joy. >> Yeah. >> And it can turn you into a perpetually pessimistic person. Um and also, you know, I was I saw in the hospital and before I say this, I I I want to note that I think struggle, adversity, and most things in life should never be compared. >> Yeah. >> You know, my my buddy Andy said, "You know, I've done more than some and less than others." >> Yeah. >> And that that really stuck with me. But with that said, uh and again, not comparing, but I saw that there were those in the hospital with me because 2010 was a very violent year in Afghanistan. Most of the hospital rooms, I think, except for mine, because I was one of the ones in the worst shape, uh I needed a one-to-one. I needed kind of some other stuff going on in my room, a lot of machines. But every single room had two beds and two patients in it. And there was even a time where the least injured were out in the hallways. And so, a lot of casualties were there and and a lot of wounded warriors are But I saw that there were some that had you know, and all struggle is is relative, but there were some that had much more minor injuries, but they just never left the hospital. >> Right. >> And and I saw that their mindset and not their injuries were holding them back. >> Yeah. >> And so, although of course I had terrible days and painful days and days where, you know, I wondered if I was going to be able to keep pushing forward. Although, I kind of in a way I didn't feel like I had a choice cuz there were so many people pouring their love and their hearts and everything they had into getting me better. But, you know, in life you can learn from people good and bad. >> Yeah. >> You can take good and bad examples and lessons from people and seeing that just I guess kind of planted a seed that I one thing I have you know, I I might not have functioning limbs, I might have lost my eye, most of my teeth are blown out, but one thing I have is my mindset. >> Yeah. >> Is my attitude and is my care for myself and wanting to get better for myself and for those around me. I'm thankful through all the medication and injuries that I kind of had that insight because it never left me. >> Do you know who Epictetus was, the Stoic philosopher? >> Absolutely. >> So, you know, Epictetus is tortured by his He's a slave, so he's but he has this cruel master who tortures him. He breaks his leg at one point. And so, he has this He's crippled the rest of his life, which is the I guess the term they would use then. And you know, You know, said that, you know, we have So, so he's he's coming at this not from like some tenured academic perch, but like a dude who really suffered and went through stuff. And his thing was that we every situation has two handles. You know, we get to decide what we're going to try to pick it up by. And yeah, you can you can grab the handle that says, "Hey, I'm alive. This is good." Or you can grab the handle of like, "Why am I alive? This is horrible." And that handle's kind of everything. The lens through which we decide to interpret the events or the position we're in is kind of the first step cuz if if you get that one wrong, all the other steps are really hard, I feel like. If you're like, "I was singled out. This is horrible. This is insurmountable." You can tell yourself a a story that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now, just telling yourself it's wonderful and I'm never going to suffer again and it's all going to great. And that's that's the thing that those Vietnam prisoners talked about. Like, the story you're telling yourself is, "I'm going to be home by Christmas. This is going to be over really soon." That's also a bad handle cuz cuz life doesn't really care that that's what you think. The key is sort of picking something that's both hopeful, but also got a kind of a grit and a determination to it that's like, as you said, like, "I just know I'm not quitting." Because as long as these people are helping me, "I'm not going to give up." That's That's not like, "Oh, you know, if you get in a car accident and and the doctors say you're never going to walk again." Just cuz you go, "I'm going to walk again." Sometimes that works, but not always. That's not magically going to give you your legs back. >> Yeah, there needs to be, you know, accepting of reality in there as well. Uh but I think there is tremendous power and I would say that's even an understatement to embracing the struggle. >> Yeah. >> And you know, in the beginning, to embrace the unknown allowed me to to step on to those yellow footprints of boot camp to try to become a Marine. And really, a life of service is is especially in the military, it's kind of like an entire journey, whether that's 4 years or a whole career of unknown. And then through my recovery and just in life in general is is an unknown journey. You can you can you know, prepare yourself. Uh you can you can try to to learn and and uh to become resilient throughout the difficult journey, but you never really know what the day or what life in in the big picture is going to hold. But, you know, I joined the Marine Corps to discover who I could really become and who I really was. Um and they say be careful what you wish for sometimes. >> Cuz you probably thought that was you were going to find out who that was, you know, in battle, not in a hospital room. But, one led to the other, and that's you don't really know. That's what I've been thinking about on this book that I'm writing now cuz I'm so I'm writing a book about Stockdale. >> Mhm. >> And, you know, Stockdale goes to the academy. He thinks he's enlisting in World War II. He misses World War II. Then he thinks he's going to fight in Korea like all his buddies do. Like Hudner wins the Medal of Honor in Korea. And then he he like I have this I have his orders where he's like begging to be sent to Korea. And they're like, "It would be detrimental to your unit if we sent you to Korea." And so he does So, he keeps thinking that he's missing his moment, right? Then he goes to test pilot school, and he thinks, you know, that's this is my thing. And then you know, Yeager breaks the sound barrier. She's not one of those that's then he misses like astronaut school and he thinks he's you know, like he's like what you know, he keeps and he but he doesn't know because you can't know that it's actually preparing him for this day in 1965 when he gets shot down and then he can't even conceive then of what you know, the next seven years are going to mean. But like you don't know what life is preparing you for all you can really do is be ready for something that you can't even conceive of. >> Yeah, absolutely. And you know, whether it's through that journey or that moment that you're shot down and you become a POW. You know, I encourage people when I speak or when I have engagements on the road to you know, embrace that struggle. >> Yeah. >> One, I think to be realistic that you know, life is a a very difficult journey at times. >> Sure. >> But it's also equally as beautiful and most importantly it's worth living and it's worth being here because those moments are impossible to describe how immediately I won't even say dark just a void >> Yeah. >> things become. But you know, to know that that life is difficult and when you face that adversity to embrace it. >> Yeah. >> And you really I mean in a way I feel like you don't have another choice. I mean if you want to sit exactly where you are right now or right in that moment of adversity for the rest of your life that's really the only other option but to embrace the struggle and understand that there's always a silver lining, there's always that light at the end of the tunnel. And when you reach that, which uh you know, everyone heals in their own time in their own way. So, I'm not telling you I'm not one of those that say, "Oh, just you know, brush it off, get back up, and keep going." I mean, sometimes it takes an entire life to try to continue to get better. Sometimes it is just inching or crawling forward. But in the right time to know that when you move forward, you hold on those silver linings, you reach that light at the end of the tunnel, you will not only look back and be proud of yourself, you'll realize that the journey was worth it. And you will be the strongest, more perspective-driven, more grateful version of yourself. And ultimately, in that moment, you know, it's never There's never a finish line, but in that moment, when you're on the other side, you'll realize that you're the best version of yourself. >> And do you think this is like I think having a physical practice is a metaphor for that, right? Every time I run, every time I jump in cold water, every time I lift weights or whatever, I don't want to do it. But I'm glad after that I did it, right? It's It's It's the feeling afterward that the shitty part is for. And it's not just like, "Oh, hey, the endorphins, you know, you do the thing and then you get a little a rush of endorphins at the end." Sometimes you don't You don't feel anything at the end but tired or >> Hey. >> hurt or whatever, yeah. But like 6 months later, when you catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror and you're like, "I am in the shape that I want to be." Or you have to pick up something heavy and you can pick it up cuz you did the work, that's that's what it is. And yeah, I think that's the metaphor for life is like in the shitty moments. And And not just in your own life, it's like every relationship has these dips and the good parts in the relationship are never those dips. They're at some point after those dips if you don't quit. And and just knowing like you get through the hard thing because of what's on the other side of the hard thing. >> Absolutely. And or to you know, cross that finish line of whatever you're working towards and to know that you stayed consistent and driven and you got out and did the things that you needed to do. And this is a race or this is an accomplishment in life. >> Yeah, or rehab or whatever. >> That you stayed on on the path and it's okay to veer sometimes but you stay on the path. You stay, you know, committed to yourself most importantly and you you you cross that finish line, whatever that is. I think uh it is hard to describe those moments uh because, you know, they're yours and they're yours alone but but um you know, to look back and for me one of the most pivotal moments aside from going with a big group of Winter Warriors to jump out of a a good airplane when when we were in the hospital together uh which which, you know, brought great value, you know, cuz my once non-existent beating heart, you know, was beating and I realized that I I was still I still had a lot of surgeries left. I was still extremely banged up. My arms didn't work. I didn't have any teeth but you know, to to have gone skydiving that time in the hospital >> Wait, you went skydiving when you're still in the hospital? Like they took you guys? >> and my buddies had to get our doctors to sign permission slips. Uh I think I told my mom after but yeah, I mean, it's crazy the doctors will say well if it doesn't injure you any further, hopefully, and you are X amount of time you know, away from a surgery and it's going to be good for your spirits and you can do it. And so we was got Ivy and it just it was one of those pivotal moments that just showed me and kind of re-energized me that hey might be a little banged up but I'm still here. I still have life and and you know, I can still get after it like a marine in a way. But it really was when I crossed the finish line in my first marathon. >> Yeah. >> Because it was a very emotional moment because I had set that goal of a marathon when I just come off the ventilator I couldn't I couldn't do anything on my own. I mean I needed a team of six to eight people. They had to make an announcement on the floor for people to come hold all my tubes and and help me just go to the bathroom in bed. Laying there in the bed and thinking to yourself which is pretty much all you can do in the state that I was in. But I thought, you know, what is something that down the road I could attempt or if accomplished that would show me that I wasn't just still here, I wasn't just still Kyle but somehow it show me that I was actually better and stronger than I was before. And I thought, well, you know, I've never ran ran a marathon before and as comical and unrealistic as it seemed at the time you know, I'd already realized that if I could sit up in bed which is a monumental task after you've been unconscious and your body's been atrophying for 5 weeks but I realized if I could sit up in bed I could work on hanging my feet off the edge. If I could hang my feet off the edge, I could work on standing. If I could stand, I could take a single step. If I could take a single step, I could walk. If I could walk, I could run. And maybe one day I could attempt that marathon. And so, when I crossed the finish line, so I ran the marathon in October and I medically retired and left the hospital that July. So, just a few months later, safe to say I might still be recovering from that a little. Almost 10 years later. But, when I crossed that finish line, you know, all I could think about, you know, cameras everywhere and millions of people and but and so much noise, but all I could really think about and the place that I was in was that hospital bed. >> Yeah. >> And I had proved to myself that I did it. And I remember all of the surgeries and all of the therapy and all of the believing and hoping and kind of persistence through therapy every day that that allowed me to be in that moment. And beyond that, all of the people that helped me, those that resuscitated me off the battlefield and throughout the hospitals cuz I was resuscitated three times by the time I got to Walter Reed. >> And think even of the people who invented the technologies that made those things possible. Like, like it's not just like, oh hey, all the doctors you personally met, but just think about every person, all the trial and error, the people who who didn't make it, you know, that like that made it possible. So, at that moment when it happened to you, they weren't like this is the end of the story. >> Yep. And so, not only just for me personally that moment, but as time has gone on, >> Right. >> I realized that from the moment I crossed that finish line, for the rest of my life, and it doesn't have to be a marathon, but for the rest of my life, I realized after the fact that now I can tell people you can do it. >> Right. >> And it's not cuz it sounds good or I read it in a book. I'm telling you because I know you can because I did it. >> Yeah. >> And that that was just a very powerful and and kind of pivotal moment in my journey. >> Yeah, when you do hard things, one of the things you take out of them is your now you have evidence, not just belief, you have evidence that you're a person who can do hard things. And that that's a huge gift. Cuz life is one thing we know for certain is there will be more hard things in the future. >> Yep. >> Uh big and small. But it's not going to go the way we want. And there's going to be moments just like you experience in a marathon where you're like is this worth continuing? Is it possible? You know, like, why does this suck so much? You know, you have all those feelings and then you realize, oh yeah, mostly what you do is don't listen to those feelings. Like that's the main muscle you're building. Like you're obviously building muscles in your legs and arms when you run. But I think you're mainly listening you're mainly developing the muscle that decides who's in charge. Like Seneca says, retreat the body rigorously so that it's not disobedient to the mind. You're it's like, no, no, no, I decide. And I imagine those muscles were already pretty good for you as you went through the process of becoming a Marine. Cuz that's mostly what they're teaching you is like you can do real hard [ __ ] >> Mhm. >> And look at where you were when you started. Look at where you are now. That's proof of concept. But >> Yeah. >> Every time how powerful the mind is. >> Yeah. >> I think yeah, that's that's important to understand that your mind is infinitely it can be. >> Yeah. >> Now, again, you have to work on it and and it's a deliberate effort, but it can be stronger and more resilient than you could ever imagine. >> Yeah. it can carry the body and impact your journey of life. >> It can also be a doom loop. You know what I mean? >> Absolutely. >> a doom loop because you're making the wrong choices and you haven't learned the right lessons, you know? It can also be a doom loop because it's medically, you know, malformed and it needs to be treated. You know what I mean? Like that's the that's the other thing is it's like your mind is your friend and it's also your worst enemy. And knowing when knowing when to trust it and knowing when to be like, "Not only can I not trust it, I need to get help." >> Yep. >> Because I need to get something between me and these thoughts, whether it's a journal, whether it's asking someone for help, or it's like, "No, no, no, no, I need like medical intervention right now." And that's all that is kind of the same process, actually. And it's weird that we don't celebrate that as a act of courage, also. Like there's a there's a line of Meditations, which whenever I do military talks, I always bring up cuz it's one of the only instances where Marcus really is who was a soldier specifically talks about fighting. He says, "We are like soldiers storming a wall." He says, "If you've fallen and you have to ask a comrade for help, so what?" I love I think that so what line is [ __ ] perfect. Because it's like when people ask us for help, like if your friend comes to you and says, "I need help." You're not like, "What a [ __ ] pussy." You're like, "Dude, thanks. You know, I would love to help." Like you're like genuinely and then we're struggling or we have doubts or we need help and we're like, "I don't want to bother anyone." You know? Or I don't want them to look that way. I mean, even though we know objectively that's not what their reaction is going to be. >> Exactly. Yeah, no, well said. As always I mean, coming from the the military culture, I mean, I guess I understand the toughness on that, for all of that. But, coming from the patient and just human side of me, it is difficult to understand because everyone, if you are alive, you know that life is hard. >> Yeah. >> If you are alive, no matter who you are, where you're at in life, someone has helped pick you up when you stumbled. >> Yeah. >> And everyone knowing how difficult life is at times, the adversity that everyone faces, it's the most understandable thing to need or ask for help. >> Well, there's almost a selfishness to it, right? To not do it. It's like, this is their job. Their job Like, you probably I maybe picked this up in the hospital, where it's like, their job is to get you what you need. You're harming yourself and them by not telling them what's going You know, like, there's this instinct of the shame where we hide or we go, "Oh, it's good." or "I'm okay." and it's like, you're [ __ ] things up, you know? Like, you're You're like, and also, if you take it, which I think we should, that we are we have important work to do, we're an important part of the team, you know, that we have important contributions we can make, by not getting better faster, by not asking for the help, by not getting back to full strength, you're like depriving the world of yourself. I think there's a way you could look at it, it's like, oh, this thing isn't like, oh, I'm I'm being tough and I'm just going to do this on my own. By doing it on your own, you're actually acting in a selfish, destructive way, cuz you're not able to do what you should be doing. >> Yeah, very true. And a disservice to not just yourself, but whether it's those wanting to help you, >> Yeah. >> whether your family need you to be better for them, >> Yeah. >> if you are a teacher or you have you know, influence over others or you're in charge of others in the workplace, it's not just you to get >> Yeah. >> to to think outside of yourself, there is a lot of things and a lot of people that you affect. >> Yes. >> And so, it's just, you know, that's why I say struggle should never be compared and you know, it's okay to struggle. It's normal to struggle. Everyone has since the beginning of time. >> Sure. >> You know, all the way back to the caveman banging rocks together struggling to get a fire going. And the world is a very daunting and complex and scary place to add to your own journey and your own struggles. So, yeah, I'm so glad this came up because you know, if you're struggling in whatever way, whether it's asking just a friend or or being I think it's important to spend time talking to yourself, >> Yeah. >> which sometimes people look at me like, okay, this dude has kind of lost it, but you know, to spend deliberate time to to 5 minutes to talk to yourself, so you always are able to, as you said earlier, say, "Hey, this is just a tough day or this is temporary adversity that I know that I need whether you do it or not, you know, to you, but these are the things that I probably need to do to get back on track or to get better or to say, "Hey, I'm feeling like I'm in a place that I've never really felt before or I'm feeling like it's getting a little more difficult to crawl out of this space that I'm in. And then understanding that okay, this is different. And maybe I do need you know, to bring in a little bit bigger guns here to help me out. >> Yeah, right. Yeah, you wouldn't feel guilty calling in air support or something if that's what the battle demanded, right? That's what they're there for. And they're they're [ __ ] rearing to go. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> And then and then for some reason in life we're like like someone went to school to help you with this thing that you're like I don't want to bother them. It's crazy. >> It is, but you know, it's a journey and thankfully, you know, there are voices out there and I try to do my little part where I can, but I think it's you know, up to those struggling just like military veterans and civilians. There is that gap of you know, lack of understanding. >> Yeah. >> And I tell veterans, you know, it's just as much up to us to educate the public and it's just as much up to the public to want to understand who we are and what we do and where we come from. Um so, you know, it's up to you to get help, but all those voices that are you know, in a good place in life or have gotten through that those tough times that understand you know, to continue to put the word out there that you know, it's okay to be down and out. It's okay to get that help. But like like so many things, you know, it's a team effort. >> There's different kinds of courage, right? We celebrate physical courage, you know? That's what the Medal of Honor, that's what the Flying Cross is about. That that's what most of the awards are. But I think about right so so Tom Hudner wins the Medal of Honor for trying to save his his friend Jesse Brown. I think of the moral courage to be the first black aviator in the Navy that that doesn't want you. >> Oh, unfathomable. >> Right. And so that that distinction between the physical and the moral courage at the same level it's like putting your ass on the line, you know? At the same level it's like putting yourself out there in a deeply uncomfortable, at times dangerous situation where you don't know what the outcome is going to be. Cuz it's not like, you know, I think that's something that we lie to ourselves about when we tell our history. We go like, you know, Jackie Robinson or Jesse Brown or Wes Wes Brown is the first graduate of the Naval Academy. They weren't the first ones to try. >> Mhm. >> Like, you know what I mean? Like, they were just the first ones who didn't get kicked out or or driven out or intimidated out. So, like, the courage is not just the moral courage, it's also the the physical courage and the the physical self-mastery. This was a dangerous thing that they did. And it was again a not a a thing in a moment, but a day-to-day showing up. Must have been incredible. Just as you said, unfathomable is really the only word for it. >> Yeah, I mean, to make it to that point to become that aviator, that graduate, you go back even further than that to just continue to survive. >> Yeah. >> But >> Imagine dying for a country where you are legally not allowed to ride its buses or vote in its elections. Like, the courage and faith and commitment is unfathomable again, the only word. >> Yeah. And and just one of the many things that I guess makes me so patriotic is knowing those that went through all of that and still served the country. You got treated so terribly. But you still were willing to raise your right hand for a country that didn't see your value yet. >> Yeah, in a way you believed in the country more than everyone else. >> Than itself, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Even when people weren't around you giving you a hard time or making life difficult for you or or making you feel devalued. Even when you're on your own by yourself to know what you were going to have to make it through that next day. >> Yeah. >> And that next day. >> And that's on top of how scary it is to land on an aircraft carrier in a prop plane. >> I mean >> like just the weight on top of the weight that's already every the the white guys are also like, you know, dealing with butterflies every [ __ ] day. >> Mhm. >> So then you put on top of that they don't want me and they might not be helping me when I need it. They You know, like I'm I have to sleep with one eye open. It's insane. >> Mhm. So, but like you were saying earlier, just not exactly the same but the journey of you know, persevering until that moment >> Yeah. >> where it's just this amazing and powerful moment for yourself but also all that came before you. >> Yeah. >> And everything you and and those, you know, whether it's of your skin color, your culture, your family, you know, those that are the first to graduate from their family who their it's not that their parents you know, I I was in the Marines with guys that first generation American and it's not that their parents would have gone to school or they didn't want to but they worked 15 hours a day every single day hard physical labor for their entire lives just to hopefully that next generation or their children to be able to have that moment. And like so many things, just like those moments on the roof, you know, everyone obviously talks to me and interviews me and documents my story, but that moment and my ceremony in DC all cameras are on me, but it's really a moment it was a moment for us all. And the Medal of Honor, it's a very heavy and and beautiful burden because it represents so much. It represents generations of courage and sacrifice. It represents those that not only never made it home, but those that are still guarded today at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Those Marines that were on the ground with me in Afghanistan, the children that that were killed from trying to learn how to read and they got caught learning trying to learn how to read and the next day they were killed and thrown and discarded on the side of the road in a dried-out river canal. Just represents ideals. >> Yeah. Do you know what Truman would say when he would give a soldier the Medal of Honor? Like cuz he gives it to Audie Murphy. >> No. >> He would say, "I would rather be getting this medal than be the one giving it." >> Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Like as that he would rather be the soldier who won the Medal of Honor than the president who got to give it. Which is obviously an incredible thing to say and I think goes to your point about like what actually represents the best, you know, is it the highest office or is it someone who lived up to the ideals? And then famously like Congress, you know, knows about this and towards the end of his presidency there was this movement to to see if there was a way to give Truman the Medal of Honor cuz he had served in World War I. And he finds out about this and he's like, "Absolutely [ __ ] not." You know, he's like, "I have done nothing to deserve it." even though, you know, he famously had done quite a lot as president. But he was like, he he believed in it so much that the idea that they would be bending the rules or making an exception or or devaluing the thing to make a political statement, he was just like, "Absolutely not." Even though at some level he probably wanted it more than anything. I just think that's so perfect. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So what what has the life been like for you now? What what I mean, on some level I'm sure you wake up you're grateful and then you're also like, "And what am I going to do today?" >> Yeah. Yeah, like like everyone else it's uh still an ongoing experiment and figuring it out. You know, I I can't say one specific thing that I do all the time. >> But it's I mean, the thing you wanted to do really badly, you can't do that anymore. >> That is correct. But that I think that's the the beautiful thing about service and just wanting to make a positive impact on people around you in the world. That can happen in an unlimited number of ways. >> Yeah. >> And so, you know, whether you're just, you know, the average person out there or a veteran going through transition, there is always a next chapter and uh another path. I think sometimes it's just spending that time with yourself, thinking about things uh deeply, and you don't have to have the perfect plan, but just narrowing down, you know, whether it's what are my interests, how do I want to help, how do I want to make an impact? You know, professionally a lot of what I do now is uh public motivational speaking, which was completely unexpected. >> So, you weren't planning to do that at 21? >> Absolutely not. Uh if I had to say, I probably would have stayed in an entire career. I was kind of already thinking about what I wanted to do next in the Marines, but at first my first group that I ever spoke to was about 12 elementary school kids in a Sunday school class. Uh it's a little foggy. I was still super medicated. I mean, it was early on in my journey. Kids are great though. I love kids. Uh as you know, they ask everything they're probably not supposed to. Uh so, the teachers would say, "Hey, don't talk about this and this." And all the hands go up and that's all they want to know, but you know, I enjoyed it. It was just kind of got me out of the hospital at the time. And you know, for many years I didn't even understand or I didn't even realize that I had a platform or a story that I could use to help other people. >> Right. >> It was just like you said, I was figuring it out. I was trying to heal and and and figure out this new body that I had. Uh and so, the engagements were very small. More local at first to South Carolina, which I recovered in DC, but I kind of went home back and forth depending on where I was at in my surgeries. You know, years later it was a local Rotary Club and and at some point along the way uh I just I realized, you know, maybe there's something here. >> Yeah. >> You know, people would share their stories of adversity with me. And you know, it was a journey and it was an evolution. And sometimes it was getting on stage. And for many years I just winged it, which drove my parents crazy. They're like, "What? You're going to go up and just not have anything? I'm like, I mean, I guess. Like, I don't even really know what I'm doing here. Uh but as time went on, you know, I would get on stage and I would say, "Oh, well, you know, no one really knows what a fire team is or a squad. So, now I uh maybe should just say team." And I slowly started to kind of bridge that gap in the verbage between military and civilian. And then I had a a few encounters where just lightbulb moments where, you know, I'd get on stage and people would say, "Well, I was never in the military, but" and then proceed to tell me their own version of struggle. >> Right. >> That's when I realized like, whether it's my book or speaking, although I got injured by a hand grenade, no matter where we come from or what knocks us down as human beings, the feelings that follow are are universal. >> Sure. >> Everyone knows what it feels like to be knocked down, to have those moments of victory, happiness, hopelessness, sadness. And so, that kind of really started the journey of being deliberate with my message, my intentions, and what I wanted to get across to, you know, I try to never do the same thing twice. I Every group, every person is different. And so, that's how I tried to approach things. Uh but, you know, other things, whether it's serving on the board of different various nonprofits, from mental health to wake surfing, which do kind of bleed over, you know, wake surfing is maybe a little selfish cuz I do like to wake surf, but uh whether it's boards, whether it's just taking 5 minutes to spend with a veteran, no matter what it is, going back to that that world of an unknown that I was living in in the hospital, I just try to focus on the time that I have, >> Yeah. >> and the overall impact that I can make. So, I I don't know exactly what's going to come my way. I don't ever want to just be this one thing. >> Right. >> And kind of all those things combined, I've just settled on hey, life is a crazy, unexpected, and beautiful journey. I don't know exactly what I'm going to get into, good or bad. Uh all I know is that I want to make the greatest impact on the world that I can with the time that I have. And that And that as kind of wide-ranging and vague as that is, it also allows me to be focused enough to if I have 10 things in front of me and I can only do two or three, to say, "Hey, I'm going to do these three things because I feel like that's where I can bring the most value." >> a mission, you know what aligns with it, and what >> Yeah. to make the most impact. And a lot of what I do and my fellow recipients do is, you know, it's it's rarely individual endeavors. >> Yeah. Sure. >> It's more being force multipliers for good organizations or people, causes, or companies that are out there already doing great things. And that, you know, it's not make or break whether we help or not. You know, they They still got their thing going on, and they're doing a great job. But if we can get up there and say, "Hey, whether it's, you know, hiring these veterans or giving to this organization, or hey, just just do the right thing in the moment, you know, just to spread that positive impact, that hope, and to remind people that, you you this country, although it's like no country, it's it's not perfect. It's an ongoing experiment that you know, it's a it's you know, freedom is a a powerful >> It's it's worth it to go to your book. >> and a beautiful thing. >> Yep. >> It it is worth it. And the people that are listening and all the people out there, no matter who you are, where you come from, what you believe in, that you know, you are worth it and you're worth serving and sacrificing for and spending years in a hospital bed. And like I said my book, you know, deep scars on our body because these ideals that built this country, that gave us the foundation we have, and that allow us to continue that pursuit of trying to always you know, just like in my recovery, even though sometimes it can feel like inching forward, that you know, we are always trying to get a little bit better. >> And look, sometimes there are setbacks. Sometimes you go in the wrong direction, and then you got to get your It's not It's not a line like this. >> Yep. Yep. >> Like and you you you don't have to read much history to know that 1776 to now has not been this. Maybe if you zoom out long enough, it gets rid of the moments like this, but it was a pretty squiggly line. >> Yep. But I think through those, just to hold on to the hope and optimism that if we continue to try to stay >> Yeah. >> on that path, to try to stick together. Because it might be you know, people tell me sometimes that I'm optimistic to a fault, and I understand that. Sometimes maybe it it can be seen as a weakness or naive, and I'm not naive, but I will always believe that there is more good than bad. >> I think that's a lovely place to stop. You want to go check out some books in the bookstore? >> Oh, yeah, for sure. >> Let's do it.