Mayor Kiss Tours the Burlington Intervale

Well, we're here in Burlington's Interval and I'm here with Kit Perkins, the executive director of the Intervil Center and Spencer Blackwell who's the facilities manager of the Intervil Center. and we're in the inter interval today uh to talk about uh the sale of Burlington Electric Department land that belongs to the city of Burlington to the Intervil Center. And I I think it's a an interesting topic. Some people might call it a hot topic, but I think it's a a chance to be here today and uh actually see the land we're talking about and what's being done on it already. >> So, Kit, uh could you give us a little history of the Intervil Center and and we're here in front of the Caukins House, which is the center of the center. Y >> So, maybe you could start with that. >> Sure. Sure. This is uh the what we call the Caukins Farmhouse. It's where our offices are located and it was the home of Reena Cockkins, the last home of Reena Cockkins, who was the last remaining dairy farmer in Burlington. And she uh farmed here with her um dairy farm up until 1995. and she passed away then and um passed her property on to her nephew Paul who in 2002 donated this whole farmstead here to the Interville Center which was the Interville Foundation at the time. And for those of you anybody wondering why we changed our name, um foundation sounded a lot like a grant-making foundation and we people thought we were giving away grants when in fact we rely on some grants to uh do the work we do. We are nonprofit 501c3 organization and our mission is to [music] develop land and farm-based farm and land-based enterprises that generate social and economic opportunity but also protect natural resources. So, we're really trying to promote sustainable agriculture and build strong local food systems for the Burlington area. That's essentially what we're what our programs are dedicated to. Um this is an 1860 farmhouse um which was restored thanks to the generous donations of um supporters of the Interville Um there's a capital camp from a capital campaign in the early [clears throat] 2000s and um it's been fully restored, nearly fully restored. We're going to do a little bit more this winter. Um and this over building over here has been uh was called the corn crib and was just recently restored last year with support from the Vermont Division of Historic Preservation and some um other matching funds. We have the English hay barn which is was essentially what it says. It was a hay storage uh barn which is currently being used for as well. That's the old dairy barn which is um is uh next in line for restoration. And um the other barn you see there behind uh or is called we call the Cuckins Community Barn. It was an old horse barn that was actually across the road and um it's now used for community events for um free to the public educational and entertaining entertainment type events. Then there's last but not least is the old milking parlor. So this farmstead as a whole is a very significant historic landmark for Vermont and the collection of buildings um in one place is what's particularly um important about it as a historic landmark and um also uh because it is so close to Burlington's largest city. It's only about a mile from downtown Burlington. So, um I mean probably a lot of people that folks that are watching remember M Reena and remember the the cows up and down the road and um uh so it's a the Intervil Foundation is dedicated to bringing back agriculture to Burlington. um it has centuries of agriculture here in the here in the innervale history and then there was a period of time when it was abandoned and really turned into a dump and an unsafe place to visit and um Will Rap who was the founder of gardener supply which is right across the road really pioneered into the intervvil to try to restore it to its agricultural roots and feeding and that was the original vision for the and so here we are this this farmstead is sort of a base base camp. >> Okay. So Kit, is there a what year do you sort of uh identify as the beginning of the Interville Foundation Now Center? >> Um I would sort of start with a story from 1986 which was when Will started the gardener supply headquarters here and he um came out one night and couldn't find his car and it turned out had been stolen and he ended up finding it in the junk pile down the road in here down on Interville Road in um with about 300 other junk cars. And so he found his car. He also um uh found a lot more and just discovered this land and discovered its potential and at that point in time had a vision for again restoring it back to agriculture and really producing a a secure local food source in Burlington. Um and creating jobs through farming. Um and so 1988 was when the organization was formally established and then 199 and it was housed in Gardener Supply for a few years and then in 1992 got its formal um 501c3 status as a nonprofit organization. >> Okay. And uh since 1996 you've had a lease with Burlington Electric to use 144 acres in the Interville. >> Yes. >> And the sale that we're talking about is 199 acres which includes that 144. Yes, it >> does. Okay. Yeah. Uh, and in that I' I've said that that really describes since 1996 a pretty close partnership with the city of Burlington to fulfill the goals of the Interville Center. >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, Spencer, how long have you worked for the center? >> I've worked for the center since for the last three uh years and I've worked down here for various different farms for uh the last six years. Um, so I've gained a fair good uh understanding of the land. Yeah. >> Also should point out that Spencer is a farmer here in the Interville. >> So what's what's your farm's name? >> Intervail Bean and Grain. >> Okay. >> So one of the things that we'll do is we'll get a chance to look at least at one of the farm sites and as we walk around the area just to give people an impression of what's going on here in the Intervil if they don't know already. >> Right. >> Um but as facilities manager, are you responsible for some of the renovations that are going on here? um not not directly doing them myself, but uh organizing them and and prioritizing and getting sites ready for work. >> And I understand this spring there was a a fair amount of flooding. So, uh I don't know if we won't be able to see evidence of that, but I heard stories that there was 6 ft of water on some people's farm area. >> It's true. Yeah. Um full-size pickup truck buried up to its top of its steering wheel, and everyone saw that picture in the paper. Um, but we were canoeing down the road and canoeing over our crops and uh hoping for the best, I guess, is all it was it's kind of exciting, you know, not every day you get to canoe over what you normally walk on, but how how did your garden grow this year? >> Um, started slow. It was a cold cold wet May, so things were really slow and and um the flood um it actually it didn't damage the plants that are growing all that much other than the stuff that the leafy greens, spinach, lettuce, and stuff that would be directly consumed without being cooked first because of a potential contamination from all the storm drains and everything else that was in the water that flooded. And then it also affect the the soil. but compacted it quite a bit. >> So all that weighted water just fills up every single pore in the in the soil and then the roots got nowhere to go. So I have beds where we um had one bed that was already planted with carrots and um we had another bed that hadn't been planted yet. So I chisel plowed the place that hadn't been planted. And then the uh we planted carrots next to that there. And then the two carrots come out. One bed that hadn't been planted before the flood. the carrots are fine and straight. And the one after it, the the one that was already planted during the flood, the carrots are like stubby little things that stop off or go 90° to the right at the bottom. >> Um, so, you know, it's >> there's that kind of damage that's we can still sell those carrots, but they're not primo, not for the >> And nobody thing to point out about the flooding is that this year was extremely rare. I would say that it floods in May, right? Usually it floods before anybody has anything in the ground and that's fine. Actually, that's a good thing for the land and it brings a lot of um really good um nutrients into the property. That's why this land is some of the best agricultural land in the state. Um so this year was really unfortunate because a lot of the farmers did have um plants and seed already in the ground that did get damaged. But normally I would say I mean it was pretty abnormal. Is that correct? >> I've seen it flood pretty much every year I've been here. But in May is is is >> is rare >> is rare. Yeah. And it normally creeps up at some at we get a lot of rain in the summer, it'll creep up to the edges, but nothing like it did this year. >> You know, kid, I wanted to get maybe to the number of people who the uh Interville Center supports in terms of employment who work for the center, but also in terms of the number of farmers who are at work. >> Yep. We've estimated that between the farmers and our work and compost and um which is part one of the programs of our um or of the organization and then uh uh sugar snap which is at the top of the hill we she Abby Duke who co- started that really does um point to the Interville Center and the work and the farms down here as a um contributing being a major factory establishment to that business. So anyway, about a 100 jobs um some seasonal but uh annually. So 100 jobs annually. Um and I would say of course that's not including all the multipliers of of all the landscapers that are served by the compost etc. and then farmers that end up moving working here for a while and then going off and starting their own farms other in other places. So um you know and we obviously do a lot of restoration work and right now as well as other kind of contract work. So we do we do uh support the contract contractor industry as well. Um, one thing I forgot, if you don't mind, I stepping back to the farmstead here and just sort of our uh role. One thing that I forgot to mention was that we're >> implementing a project this year to improve public act public access to the intervvil and we call it the way a wayfinding project that was funded in part by the Vermont Department of Agency of Transportation or VTrans. And I'm just looking over to that spot where there's going to be anformational kiosk. And over here we're going to have a public restroom and as well as just signage throughout the Intervil to help um people that come down here. uh it's nowhere to go really sort of identified both directional signage for the trails and the bike path and what's going on and then interpretational signage for both um for the history of the intervail and the um what's going on with the farms and just to make sure people know that these are independent farms and uh welcome to make appointments with the farmers to chat with them. But anyway, just to be able to be really clear when f we want to we've been very active stewards to public access in the in the rail doing the best we can and now we're actually moving on to another level of actual signage and other um I don't uh other sort of installations like a kiosk and a and a restroom that will help serve that help serve that mission and we we'll continue to to continue to do that. So >> that's great. >> Yeah. >> Well, why don't we move on to the next site and go from there. So Kit, the reason that there's an opportunity for the city of Burlington to sell land to the interval center has a lot to do with this uh power plant behind you, the McNeel generating station, is one of the results of uh the city planning to build a power plant in the intervail. And what's been determined more recently is that the BE no longer has any reason to hold on to uh 199 acres that was part of the purchase of the land in order to build McNeel. Um so uh how does it feel to have McNeel as a neighbor? Oh, I'm really proud to have McNeel as as a neighbor personally. You know, it's really has come a long way. I think it has a um a long history, of course, which we're all familiar with in terms of the development of the McNeil plant. But the idea of about what I understand to be about 50% of Burlington's electricity coming from a um electric plant that's sourced that is powered by a renewable resource, wood, especially a lot of waste wood that would otherwise not go to use. Um it's really uh I think it's a great project. I think um also it does represent to some extent the a um an ecological approach to to electricity generation. And you know we've also had thoughts and designs for using some of that waste heat to heat a facility that would be built up the road um through the center. And so the idea is to create these closed loop systems where none of the waste is actually being wasted similar to compost where we're really trying to recycle a lot of organic waste and create a premium soil product out of it. So um and really working with the school schools to help them recycle or uh compost their waste their food waste and bring it down here to the rail compost. But so the overall ethic of um using natural resources very responsibly toward a productive end and that's what what we're about. >> Uh Kit uh the negotiations to actually sell the land uh by Burlington Electric or from Burlington Electric to the Interell Center uh those negotiations began between the Interbell Center and BED is that right? >> Yes. And uh and when you had sort of come to terms on that, it was brought to the finance board for consideration by the city council. Uh >> right. >> And the administration process. >> Correct. the um you know I might reframe it not necessarily negotiations but simply the idea that we are very interested in owning the land on which we run our programs for to provide additional security for the farms that are here and just generally to secure the land as agricultural um you in agricultural use in perpetuity forever for all future generations to have access to fresh local food from the interval of Wilington. So I think a lot of the process that has um happened since we first talked and this has also been an idea that's been seated with beed for a long time um and not just happening this last year. So um did you want to let them go by? >> Um follow up with Okay. What I wanted to follow up with was uh the price that that we're discussing in terms of the sale is $200,000 for the 1999 acres. Now, uh that that number came from an independent appraisal uh that was uh that was contracted by Burlington Electric. >> Yes. And the Interville Center and um was accepted by the Vermont Housing Conservation Board, which is um would will hopefully, knock on wood, be the funding um source for this for the two paying 200,000 to purchase the land. They do that for um agricultural purposes and so yes an independent professional appraisal that's what the requirement is at least for the for BED and for the Burlington Housing Conservation Board. >> Okay. And after that appraisal the Burlington Electric Commission endorsed the idea of selling the land for the Enderville Center. >> Yes. >> Um and as I understand it the appraiser said that the highest and best use of this land is agriculture and conservation. >> Yep. It's he it was quote to quote the appraisal it's agriculture conservation and recreation uses. That's the highest and best use that's been identified by that appraisal which that's their job to do that. >> Okay. And the use of this land is then particularly consistent with the mission of the Interval Center. >> Absolutely. Yeah. We are stewards to um working helping um new farmers get started and um more mature farmers continue to do um have run viable farms and so agriculturing is a dominant part of our mission. We also are stewards to um conservation areas that that are not suitable for tillable acre is not suitable for tilling um and you're going to maybe talk to that point a little bit too and also some very important wildlife habitat that we're also um feel are is critical to to what we're doing. >> Okay. Um, I guess the last thing I just wanted to comment on in terms of the agreement is that the proposed agreement with uh McNeel and the city would preserve aspects of the land, the 199 acres for potential future uses by McNeel. For example, there's a a chance that they could expand the wood lot by 4 acres if that was necessary. >> They I'm just going to talk about some of the specifics. Yeah, the beed has said that they may need in the future an area to expand where they have their woods, just the storage of their waste wood, right? um and other wood for the McNeel gener. So they um are retaining the right to lease back four acres plus or minus adjacent to the to the woodlock here. They have uh retain the right to have access to one of the wells which is currently on one out of the four wells that are currently on the land. Um and then also a potential for a utility corridor I believe to service that well would be probably the purpose of that but it's mostly just to retain that right. Um, and I believe that was the the main conditions that they but they've retained the rights to this land for, but other than that, they've determined that they don't have any other use for it. So, >> okay. So, this all anticipates a continuing working relationship between BED and the Interail Center into the future. >> Yeah. Yeah, in the city of Burlington, I think um for sure that's what one of the better things about this deal is that uh it really will elevate the the partnership that exists but really will elevate the relationship between the city and the Unville Center which is really exciting and it's the way it should be and I and I mean I hope that it it will do that will um as part of this part of this uh transaction. I'm hopeful. Okay. So, you're ready to move on to the next spot. All right. Uh so Kit this is one of the farms on the 199 acres that would be part of the sale and it's a community supported agriculture. Uh so what happens on this land? >> This is uh this land is currently leased by Intervil Community Farm which is um managed by Andy Jones and they are the first farm that sort of repopulated the Intervil in 19 I believe it was 80 or 1990. and I think he started here and now they have grown to serve 450 families [music] with community supported agriculture shares. And what that means is that families or individuals buy a share of the farm essentially which means they they write a check in the early part of the year when farmers need the cash to get their farms going and then receive a share of veggies and food throughout the season um and varying sizes depending on what size they want. But um uh so this is a I think it was one of the first and definitely the largest CSA farms in Vermont and uh it's just a terrific service for Burlington. It's a very um it's also just a wonderful community of folks that participate in the farm and they come down on their pickup days. Today happens to be one of the one of the pickup days. So they're the um folks who work at the farm are are setting up for that. And uh so the volume is enormous. I mean we're we're talking 450 500 people and there's a waiting list for this particular farm for a share of about 150 people or families. So >> So [snorts] in in buying the land, one of the things you'd be planning to do is to sustain this kind of effort in the interval. >> Absolutely. No, it's um I just want to point out too that it's the farmers and the folks that run these farms that really keep this land active and open and productive and we're helping to do that through our programs by um enabling access to some shared equipment and other um infrastructure that goes along that's needed for farming. But it's the farmers that are down here doing the work and really serving um really growing the local food for Burlington. And um that is critical. And if anybody, you know, those of us who are a little bit not farming directly really get a separate, you know, aren't as close to farming as we probably should be considering how much we eat of these farms, but especially farming as a business or as an industry is entirely connected to the land on which is being farmed. And so to have security in that land that you're uh planting cover crops as in over there or um putting compost on and tending and um over to make sure that the nutrient levels are high enough. Um this is all organic methods of farming. They're certified organic farms. So, the idea is to give these farmers or or or other farmers that do come into the Interville in the future as others graduate off to populate farms throughout Vermont. Um the security, the long-term security of knowing like for any business needs to know its future, especially farming that is so attached to land that it's that's growing. Um it can't just sort of move from building to building. It's all about the land that you're working in. So, part of uh we would like to be able to extend longerterm tenure leases to the farmers that are here. Okay. I know one of the benefits uh that you've talked about is in with ownership, you would expect that you'd be able to get some additional funding that a lease arrangement doesn't seem to be able to provide. >> Yeah. We've been um told by um especially two of our major funders and just stalwart funders who really believe in this place and believe in Burlington and believe in what we can do um that they they have indicated that ownership of the land is much better for them in terms of funding infrastructure obviously to invest in a your underground irrigation system or other um um infrastructure needed for farming, you want to know that that's the future of the land. And so the having ownership by the nonprofit that is the agricultural steward of the land um absolutely helps our chances of getting um funding, grant funding from these funders interestedly in our mission. So I don't know if you wanted to >> there's also the stewardship part of it in that if you come onto a land piece of land as an organic farmer you really unless it's been maintained by an organic farmer beforehand it's you need to build that soil up and by most accounts it takes about 5 years until you have the microorganisms working in there that to properly grow your crops without excessive weed pressure and other problems that crops have nutrient deficiencies and you got to add compost. You'll add compost one year and it it'll do something for you next year, but it'll do 10 times for you two years from now. And it's an exponential growth. And you people want to be able to know that the lease isn't going to expire and all that they've just put into it is gone and they've got to go find land somewhere else. And a lot of people have referred, if you don't mind if I jump to the next question, but what I think may be coming is that people say, well, why not a long-term lease for for the for the Interville Center and these farmers and the difference there is that a lease is a lease number one. Um that we any day a lease can can be be threatened. And so ownership really does deliver the security that we need we want to be able to deliver to the farmers and to the agricultural use of this land here in the Interville. It also um We can't put one of the big parts of this transaction is to enable the Interville Center to work with the Vermont Land Trust and the Vermont Housing Conservation Board to put agricultural and conservation easements on the land that will ensure that it will be in agriculture and conservation and passive recreation for future generations forever. That's the idea. And so that can't not happen with a lease. It has to be in the ownership. So, um I just wanted to mention that for but it really does come down to sort of the need to provide security for folks that are growing the food here because it is about the land. It's about the soil. So, >> Right. That's great. So, I understand even with the the Caukins house that renovation of that house was uh was really helped by your getting ownership of the the site in the land. >> Absolutely. Um I know that we could not raise funds particularly for the restoration of the farmstead which is really turning into being a very wonderful public asset um and uses for working farms here. We could not get funding until we had ownership of that of that farmstead and that land. So people were not willing to uh provide donations to to an organization that didn't own the didn't own the property. So yeah. >> Okay. So, uh why don't we move on next uh to the community gardens and then go over to the compost. Uh here we are at the Tommy Thompson Community Garden site which is a part of the 199 acres that would be part of the sale. Uh um so there are according to the statistics 145 garden plots here and I know I have one of them over here A2. Uh but it's a >> to go look at that. >> It's a great place in the Interville. Um uh we just talked about one of the benefits of uh of owning the land is that there would be an easement uh for agricultural uses into perpetuity. There'd be another easement that would uh preserve these gardens into perpetuity. Um so uh what's your relationship? How do you support uh the community gardens uh uh in the current relationship that you have? >> Um well we have a you know a friendly certainly a very friendly current relationship. We don't I don't know all the gardeners, that's for sure. But um certainly with some of the um oh what are their name the folks that volunteered to try to head up and organize the gardens. Yeah, the coordinators. Yeah. Thanks. And um >> I'm really excited to have even deeper relationship potentially with some of the farm some of the actual gardeners here and with the coordinators if this transaction did go through. It would be um the special easement for these five acres that are currently located the current boundary of the community gardens as Tommy Thompson Gardens as they're currently configured would be um there would be an easement um established that would protect them on this parcel in perpetuity again. So there would be no moving of them. Um and it would continue to um we would provide a lease I believe to the um Department of Public Rex Parks and Recreation who would work with the Burlington Community Area Gardens to ensure that the program continues. And so um that's exciting. We're, you know, thrilled. Not only does it meet, you know, it certainly is food production, it's getting more and more people's, you know, hand in the dirt and really experienced with gardens and an opportunity to get more and more people down to the intervvil, which is, you know, frankly, the more people down here doing the right thing and doing, you know, and um taking a sense of ownership to in this land, the better because the safer it's going to be if you have more eyes on the land and more eyes on the area um of people that really care about the place. So, um I think you said earlier something about five about 500 gardeners that are participating in this program. So, that's just terrific. And we've also included in a memorandum uh in the potential transaction agreement um that we would consider um uh expanding the gardens as needed. And I've also made a commitment as um in general to help the Burlington Community Area Gardens secure their other gardens throughout the city because that's just as important to make sure that there's um easy access to the type of type of um um resource this provides to folks all throughout Burlington rather than just here in the Intervale and there are a lot of just just amazing community gardens throughout Burlington and to try to work with them to secure those gardens as well into the future. So, um I have a few days. >> Yeah. The only um other thing I can think of is that this the gardens have actually provided a launching point for a lot of the farms that are down here. Um quite a few um I know my wife is being one of them. Uh started out before we went into commercial production started out doing trials on a garden plot and um just trying to get an idea of of what it's going to take to get into commercial production. and to have it right here, become familiar with the same soil, become familiar with the area um before you start your own business. It's a great resource. So, it's definitely something that enhances the inner mill center's ability to produce farm farmers. >> So, I know I talk about the fact that what this whole uh arrangement promises is a partnership between the city and the Interale Center and the Burlington Area Community Gardens is clearly another partner in that process. >> Absolutely. but uh sort of working as natural allies. I think this continues to be a success story of of how the intervail can be used now and into the future. So >> agree I'm looking forward to the potential to to get to know everybody a little bit more. >> Uh so Kitten Spencer, there's a lot of fall produce behind us. What does this represent uh in the intervvil? Oh, this is uh this is one of the best looking fields I've seen this year, >> actually. It's uh they've they've been struggling with weed weed control for quite some time, and they're they're just getting it getting a handle on it. And as you can look across there, there's there's there's very few weeds sticking up and I think they're pretty proud of it. But this is a kale there. brassacas for the most part, chard and uh kale and cabbage and Brussels sprouts in the way back and they are will be harvesting off of that through December and um in in and they'll do a big harvest in December and give it out to their it'll store in the cooler through the winter and they're they're doing a winter share. So this is the second year doing that and they're going to have uh this will be greens available throughout the winter. So, it's something else, you know, to be able to grow to provide fresh food throughout the winter in this state. >> So, kid, I know one of the goals is uh for the Intervil to actually provide uh food for Burlington. I think uh I think the number is that 7% of Burlington's food production now comes from the Interville. >> That's what we've estimated based on what we know to be the consumption of fresh food by um Burlington residents um on average and compared to what we produce and compared to what we know gets marketed in Burlington. Um yeah, it's about 500. In 2005, it was about 550,000 pounds of food just in one year that got harvested from uh 13 independent farms down here. Um so there's a lot lot of food going into the into the mouths of Burlington residents and hopefully they're enjoying it. Um and also just in need of you noted there's a few farms and as well as our healthy city youth farm program that do a lot of gleaning of produce which means basically going around all the farm fields and collecting the produce that would otherwise be wasted or left in the field and they collect it which is about 30,000 pounds a year 30 to40,000 a year and distribute it to about 13 to 15 social service agencies in the Burlington area for families in need and it's some for some of the families it's some of the only fresh produce that they receive. So, it's part of our um social mission as well to to help folks get folks who can't don't necessarily have access to fresh local food to um help introduce them to it and and make sure it's available. So, we work the food food shelves and other organizations to make that happen. So, um we're really proud of that. >> Um how about with the Burlington school system? Does the food from the Intervil make its way there? >> Yes, it sure does. We were actually just trying to find out, but we think that the Healthy City Youth Farm, which is down the road, um uh we which employs and um trains about 20 to 25 teens every summer in organic farming methods and also market um business planning through market marketing the produce. Um the um they are working with the Burlington School District and the Burlington through the Burlington School Food Project to grow have the teams actually growing the food that ends up in their own cafeteria. What I was about to say before is that we think it's the only youth farm in the country that's growing food for the school district. So, it's a pretty amazing, you know, you have kids in their school lunch line who have participated in city market who even without their not even their friends, but they just turn around in line and say, "Look at those tomatoes. I grew those tomatoes. You guys got to try these." So, it's really about sort of pride and helping these kids build their confidence and life skills, but also getting fresh, healthy food to the school age population. and this brilliance and school food project and all the partners like Shelurn Farms and NOA and um are just doing a terrific job through the taste test making sure that the food is something that the kids actually will eat and like um you know there's there's kale going into the new minister soup recipe which is really wonderful. I mean you can um kale is one of the healthy as you can see right here. This is a lot of this is kale. It's one of the healthiest vegetables you can eat and probably not very attractive to kids um just on the plate, you know, steamed or but when you put it in the context of another recipe that they've tried and tasted, they're excited and they love the food. They love the food and um that that is being tested and then incorporated. So, the Burlington School District deserves a lot of credit and Doug Doug Davis especially for really embracing this program because it's not easy. It's pretty complicated um process to move from purchasing, you know, large volumes from way out of state um to really working closely with individual farms to try to purchase locally. So, and they're really dedicated to doing it. It's terrific. It's incredibly noble and it's working. So, >> that's great. So K, you know, one of the elements of the agreement that's being proposed between the Intervil Center and the city, uh, is that there'd be a memorandum of agreement that would be developed every 10 years, essentially a work plan that you would develop for the Intervail that the city council would approve. >> Um, do you think that will work? >> Oh, yeah, absolutely. the you know the the beauty what we what [clears throat] it is is it's called the land management plan and it's part of it is required by the easements that would be um placed on the land is a land management plan which is more about the day-to-day operations of the land the circulation the buildings the um how the land is managed and um what uses happen on the land that kind of thing um um but the beauty of that is this isn't going to change all that much from our point of view it's going to continue to be a working agricultural landscape and so um that's what we will right into this management plan. And so we expect to be working the process as it is outlined to date um or proposed processes that we'd work with city staff to develop that management plan. Um and uh then presented with a recommendation to the city council and I think at that point um it would be uh obviously in the welcome any comments by the city council and and look for approval. But um what you see we expect is what you'll get into the future. Um it's really we see absolutely well the land is what drives the uses down here as we've talked about it is all flood plane and it's um the the uses are extremely restricted agriculture conservation and recreation. So that uh the the land again the land and the and the sort of ecological or the environmental conditions really do do drive whatever uses happen here. So that won't vary. >> Okay. So Spencer with all the flooding this year what happened to to this piece of land? Was it underwater or >> Oh, yeah. This was um Well, you can kind of see the the field dips down in the center there. That was a a river, a main way of water to get from a low spot over in the area where the compost fields are to the wetlands in the back. And actually, surprisingly enough, uh the river doesn't normally breach its bank. It it normally the the flooding actually all comes from the wetlands in the back. And um I heard recently from Pat Fitzgerald, who's a farmer who's been down here longer than any of us um on his own property at the end of the road. He says that uh when they built the beltway uh 127 that the it made the flooding a lot worse down here and that the water comes up a lot higher and it's just a matter of displacement of water. I guess you fill in a section and the rest of the water is going to go higher. So um uh it is an issue and and it it flood it comes in from the back it pushes up this up towards the river and I guess in a really bad situation the uh that it would meet with the river and combine and that's where we get some really uh bad river bank erosion because that would create a a a flow over the bank that could potentially take out uh change totally change the course of the river um as rivers do. Um, I guess that's the the main reason we're we're growing the riparian nursery to increase the size of our our our riparian buffers. Uh, just riverside buffers. Um, and we've been working on that a little bit. Um, down on the further down on the property, um, which is actually another piece of Paul Caulkins land. Uh, we've been expanding the buffer by planting uh, trees from the native nursery. Yeah, we're going to walk by there by the shade house for the nursery, but essentially it's um was a start was established because when all the troubles were happening up and still sort of happening up in the Missiscocoy Bay and pollution from farm fields really um running off into the lake, um folks noticed that the best or recognized that one of the best ways to protect water quality was to improve the buffers along the surface water bodies between the runoff points and the and the rivers or and the lake. and um to plant along those buffers. And but there was no source for native Vermont trees and shrubs. And so the Intervale Conservation Nursery was established to um grow um native Vermont source genotypes um trees and shrubs for riparian forest stream bank restoration. And that's sort of part of our holistic approach to farming is that we really are trying to create viable farms from a social and economic and environmental point of view. really looking at a triple bottom line. So they as they say um in terms of farm operations and we are um trying to serve as various responsible stewards to the Wooki River especially along the part portions that we our land or the land that we manage abutz and so there's a section as Spencer mentioned up the up the up river >> up river down river >> down river sorry down river yeah um >> that had become very eroded and uh so we are we've done a bunch of planting of the of these species along the river to to protect that um to protect the water essentially. >> So Kit, you mentioned uh native plants. Uh one of the issues that we've talked about is Native Americans as well in terms of uh Abnaki history here and the archaeological history. >> Uh how how do you protect uh that history? >> We're learning a lot. Well, we've been really fortunate and they're to very grateful for the Native American community has approached us during this process and to really me in particular to just really educate me about the history and about the the cultural and archaeological resources that are here. It's this um very very important archaeological um site here just because of its uh connection with the Abanaki um culture. And so we are um working closely with the uh with the Native American community to uh ensure that uh what we do whatever we do here down here is responsible and respectful to that to that history. >> That's great. Um again, they're just in the neighborhood. It's not a surprise that the Native Americans were here because this the soil is absolutely phenomenal. I mean, you can't some of the shots we see of the the weeds alone are a testament to how how well stuff grows here. You got gr vines growing 30 feet up into the trees and cottonwoods that are 150 ft tall. Um, you know, very deep lush soils. Yeah, I've seen someone use their arms like this deep for terms of the top soil and you know a lot of >> you just don't get that and it's like I said I think it's some of the best soil at least in Vermont if not the country. I mean if you were to judge agricultural soils >> um yeah >> so a good use for the Interville is agricultural uses. >> That's what the that's what the soil would tell us. That's for sure. >> Thanks a lot. Well, let's move on maybe to the the compost operation. Hi kids, we're here at the Burlington Compost Project and this is one of the programs of the Intervail Center. Um, can you give us a some facts about the compost project? >> This compost project serves a lot of Burlington, but it is called Intervil Compost Products, not Burlington Compost Products. >> I'm focused on Burlington. [laughter] Uh but yeah, this was an enterprise that was um part of a program of the nonprofit organization that was the first one first program of the organization and it was started as a portable compost operation essentially to go from field to field to to restore some of the depleted nutrients back to the soil part of the vision for restoring the the land back to agriculture. And um it has it landed here on its permanent site. Um and we currently recycle about 20,000 tons of organic waste every year and then produce produce um nearly equal amounts of premium compost uh germinating mix, top soil, other really um incredible soil products. Um and we work with the Chittton Solid Waste District to um coordinate the collection and delivery of leaves for example from households. We get horse manure, cow manure, all sorts of manure from farms. So it helps them to get the the nutrients sort of the the manure off their farmland and here and it's get put getting put to use. Um waste from from a cheese cheese making operation and one of our secret ingredients is the Ben & Jerry's waste which gets um mixed with some of the drier ingredients and really uh helps to activate some of the um microorganisms that have to um be working to heat up the pile to make turn it all into um into compost. So hope that makes sense. >> It does. So uh in the Interville compost project is actually able to in some years generate uh resources from the sale of compost. >> Yeah, we uh in it's structured it was what was called in the industry a social enterprise which is essentially a business that is under the opices of a nonprofit organization and we sell stuff. We sell compost, we sell um top soil etc. And we also um receive um tipping fees for dropping off some of the feed stock, some of the um the waste that goes into the compost. So um when at the end of the day when this place is taken care of and all of its needs as as an as a business is taken care of, some if there are any unbudgeted surplus that does go back to um support some of the less mature enterprises or programs that we never expect will be self- sustaining like the healthy city program which is really has a a deeper social mission. um and it helps to support those programs and the mission of the over overall organization. So um we're really proud of that and we'll talk about I think down the road a little bit about the conservation nursery which is also structured that way but we do try to right now about half of our budget is represented by um the compost operation. >> Okay. >> So you know Kit besides the compost there are a lot of seagulls here. It just brings to mind wildlife. I think we talked about it a little bit but you said uh there's for example an eagle here in the interval. There was there is a um they don't we have no evidence that it's actually nesting here, but um there's been lots of sightings of the eagle down. That's see that big tree at the end of the that's we call the eagle tree. That's where it lands a lot and just um stands there very maj or sits there very majestically probably hunting seagulls um or some other critters out here. Um but yeah, it's a it's a there's some very important habitat down here. Bird it's a birding um haven. a lot of birders coming down and tour around the Interville because there's some real special special places [music] here that um attract particular birds. So, um that's just one of one of many. But so, we also, you know, part of our approach to farming is um farming in a way that is ecologically sensitive and does take into consideration all the other creatures and and habitat around us um including also water quality and um conservation. So, and I, as I understand it, the the land that the compost project is on is not by and large part of the the 199 acres that's part of the sale. >> It is not on that, but I I do want to note that this was land that was owned by um Paul Cawkins, who is a nephew heir of Reena Cawkins, and he and his wife Rita donated it last year to the Interal Center. And um it has really enabled us to feel um 100% secure about all the investment make we are making and there's just enormous public benefit in this operation um in terms of waste sustainable waste management and the folks who run the compost operation are 100% committed to environmental sustainability. Holly Taylor who's general manager has just done a terrific job helping to restore the site um so that we're uh eliminating adverse impact to the to the Wooki River and to other watershed um areas. So um among many other many other benefits. So feeling good about where this place is at at the moment and uh you know really grateful to the staff here that are that are again technically staff of the Interville Center as a whole but are very much an an autonomous enterprise within that within that um organiza within the organization. >> Okay Spencer, any any comments you have about the compost project? Oh, it's um it's just a great resource to have as as as a farmer. Um to to be able to have access to hundreds of thousands of yards of of compost is you couldn't ask for any more to have that right next door. And the compost staff actually in that field we we saw earlier actually um the compost facility creates a specific farmer mix made up of ingredients that a recipe that is particularly good for the farmers here at the Intervil. So that's um that's I mean it's again it's sort of part of the ongoing restoration or or um helping the soil to stay um very as as productive as possible using again organically certified compost product. So, um, and trying the compost folks work directly with the farmers here to make sure that, um, they help with that process. >> That sounds great. >> Yeah. >> Well, then, uh, we're going to go head on to the nursery area. >> Great. >> So, Spencer, this is the site of the incubator farms project at least where uh, some of the work gets done and people come to get materials and equipment. You want to talk to us about that? Well, it's it's pretty unique program where um we have uh the Intervil Center owns all this equipment. Um the green houses and a barn um for with a walk-in cooler in it and a wash station, some a carrot washer and various different uh equipment that the farms can then who lease the land have access to lease the equipment and infrastructure. So for a startup farmer, it's a a great resource because you you don't necessarily have the money to buy all that to get going. So you can come down here, you can lease some land, you lease some equipment, and you know, for a small startup, the your annual costs are anywhere from a,000 to $2,000 versus the quarter million dollar cost it would you would incur if you were to just go out on your own and try to do all that by yourself. So it's it's really pretty unique opportunity and it's actually worked really well for myself as well in my own farm. Um, I've been using the infrastructure down here and the land and the equipment for the last five years and and I've uh built a business that I'm I'm confident now that I can go out and uh on my own land and start my own farm on uh own land and start building my own infrastructure. I see, you know, how things are done and how they work well and it's really uh it's it's a great opportunity and would recommend any uh any young farmers out there who are maybe not quite so sure if they can do it to try to come down here and get started. >> So So I should How many farmers are there working in the Interval in this kind of a project? >> Um there's 13 of us right now. 13 independent businesses. Yep. That have uh that share much of this resources. Yeah. And then uh some farmers have moved on from here onto property that they've leased or purchased elsewhere. >> Yeah. Um there's there's quite they call they're called graduate sort of in the in rail center. Um there's um a couple there's there's several um there's one up in South Euro uh the Wells family farm. They're doing pastured poultry up there and and and beef. And um there's uh the Wellspring Farm in Marshfield who's a Interville graduate. Mimi Arstein. Um Eric Rosenall in in Starksboro, his farm is a he's an Interville graduate. And um his former partner Julie Robo, she's got her own uh bedding plant business in Hinesburg. That's all all sort of came out of u knowledge I gained here. So >> that's great. So I mean it is a success story. >> It is. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds >> we've had so many, you know, people from literally all over the world call us um and ask to um get more information about this particular program, but the Interval C Center's work as a whole. uh because they want to replicate the farms program, this incubator model in in their community. And um as a result, we've really um we are grateful for those calls and we even have um started to work closely with those um people as clients in terms of from a consulting relationship in order to cover our costs to share our information and they're just delighted to to have the input and Lindsay Ketchel who's the director of the farms program and the director of agricultural programs at the Interville Center does prim does most of that um outreach to other communities throughout the throughout the country. um you know, North Carolina, Canada, um Rutland, Vermont, they're trying to start their own incubator program in Rutland right now. Um working with the Vermont Land Trust and um and with us to try to do that. So, it is it's proven to be a very successful model for start helping farms become viable and enable these farms to get started and then um be able to graduate off these incubator locations onto their own farms. So, for Vermont's case, repopulate the thousands of acres of land that's preserved but isn't currently being under active farming. So, um, we're pretty proud of that. >> Yeah. >> Right. Rightfully so. I mean, I I really am, uh, committed to developing this relationship between the Interval Center and the city. I do think that the sale that's proposed builds a partnership that I think only brings promise, good promise to the city of Burlington and the people of Burlington into the future. Um, this is valuable sort of opportunity. Now, imagine it 50 years from now that we're able to preserve this kind of land for these kinds [music] of uses. That's that's really uh I think uh talk about success stories, you know. >> I think more and more we're also learning the benefits of local food, >> too. Being able to know exactly where your food is grown and having it, you know, if you've ever tasted um food grown in the inner, it's pretty remarkable and it's especially if you're in Burlington, it's so fresh. I mean, it's coming literally when you buy it, it's probably harvested that partic that morning. So having a secure source for local food for any community is becoming more and more and more critical um as time goes on. And there's all sorts of other environmental benefits to to having access to really supporting and being you know having a city commit to saying this is an area of the city we want to grow some we want to grow a portion of our food here. Um it's incredibly fortunate to have this proximity adjacent to of [clears throat] this location of this land adjacent to to um to the city of [music] Burlington and people all over the country really want it. [laughter] But it's also just for us to you know I really am grateful that the city's considering this and really solidifying this partnership and also solidifying that the fact that this land will be in agriculture for future generations [music] um is just terrific. We're here at the site of the Intervil Conservation Nursery and there's lots of plants behind us. What What do they represent? >> Well, I'd like to say they represent um positive lake quality quality of water for Lake Champlain ultimately because what these plants do is they we they're sourced they literally seeds are collected, cutings are select collected from Vermont um areas, riparian areas, and then they're planted here. And then the idea is to use these trees and shrubs to reforest um buffers along water bodies which ultimately is one of the best ways as determined by the Lake Champlain Basin program. one of the best ways to protect water quality, especially quality water quality in the lake, which is of course, especially in the Burlington Free Press, has been a huge topic and a topic for all of us who just love the lake. And um so if we we liter we uh have about 35 native Vermont um species of trees and shrubs that are purchased by conservation groups, uh farmers, anybody else, the watershed groups that are anybody that's doing a restoration along a water body, surface water body, whether it's a stream, the lake, um a wetland, etc. So they do help absorb um the nutrients that that are coming into the water would otherwise come straight into the water through runoff um and slowing down any kind of storm water runoff. So it's really a matter of making those buffers along the water bars healthier and more able to do their job which is to collect to absorb [music] the nutrients that would otherwise go straight into the lake that are currently causing that can cause um uh pollution. But it also reduces agricultural soil erosion and just general erosion of so of water of uh riparian areas. So um the there was there is no other um as far as we know um source of this kind of plant material in Vermont. And so we're really thrilled to be able to finally have mature enough plants to be selling them to watershed groups. And we literally can't grow enough at this point. They the demand is so high and people have been really supportive um overall. >> Okay. So, this is a statewide resource then? >> It's absolutely a statewide resource. Yes, definitely. Um, and you know, we are working with um folks in I'm not sure about all counties, but many near nearly all counties in Vermont um who are we either sourcing trees from those counties and selling them back or are uh sourcing the seeds and and cutings and then um we I say selling them back, they're extremely affordable. we sell them at bare roottock at prices that they just simply sustain the program and sustain our ability to um continue to grow and um that so we're we're thrilled to be working with these groups to for the purpose of ultimately protecting water quality, you know, and again it's part of our holistic approach to to farming is really trying to create a create a farmer and a farm environment that's [music] healthy and that's responsible to the environment because ultimately we all especially farmers really care about that stuff and we're just trying to help um help that process. >> Right. So, let me just stress again uh the Interval Center is a nonprofit corporation and all the all the programs and projects that we've seen are are programs and projects of the Interval Center. >> Yes. Yeah. We also just real quick talking about statewide resources. We also deliver um business planning technical assistance to farmers throughout the state as well and um sort of delivering some of what we've learned here to farms throughout the state. So, um, we're really trying to help farmers become and be and stay viable over time and, uh, you know, really >> and and meet farmers that we know have are very successful and put them in contact with farmers that are struggling and absolutely and create networking in the community. That's a really good point especially here when you're one of the best parts of the farm incubator program here is that the you know the new farmers get to be mentored by the older or more mature farmers and that is just a unique situation especially among you know a lot of times farmers are really isolated and so this really helps uh bring farmers here together here at the Interval but also as Spencer [music] said helps to network other farms throughout the state. So >> I appreciate that. I think it's a the story of the Interell Center is a is a good story. I mean, I think it's great to be here in the Interville today and we finally got some sun. >> Um, but uh I am looking forward to the potential of the city of Burlington to have this relationship that goes on into perpetuity uh with the Interbale Center. >> We are too. >> U so I think the agreement uh that that's have that's being developed has uh has been developed over now uh months of of time and effort and I and I think it really does represent uh long-term interest to the uh people of Burlington. So hope that we move forward on this together. Spencer, thanks for doing this today. Appreciate it. >> I think it's a great view of uh Burlington's Interville. >> Thanks. >> So this is what has been named the Reena Cockkins Trail after Reena who was the farmer, the dairy farmer here at the farmstead. And um this is a public trail that we maintain and uh welcome folks to come down anytime. We're again we're trying to be stewards for public access down here because really um are glad to have as many people down here as possible. And you know, we get thousands of people visiting every year just to see what we're doing, but also part of the Burlington School Food Project or folks going down to see compost or whatever. >> A lot of birders. >> Lot of birders. >> I bet. Yeah. And fisher fisher people, >> right? Folks still who are still fishing in the Wooki River. Yeah. >> Which we're hoping to, you know, be contributing to its quality water quality. So fish will continue to be surviving in there. So yeah, all the even after if this transaction happens will continue to be um you know again sort of stewards to the land and no change will occur around access to the trails and to the bike path and this is a public road. This is owned by the city of Burlington road is so it's obviously will continue to be open to the public. That's right.