Matthew McConaughey Shares his Trick for Getting What You Want

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Impact Theory. I am here with a face that I think everybody is going to recognize, Mr. Matthew McConna. Thank you for joining me, man. Uh, good to be here, Tom. Thanks for having me. Absolutely, dude. I am super excited. Your book was so much fun and I listened to the audio book, so I got to hear you performing it and Okay. doing impressions and voices. Um, I was really into it. I actually had sat down at one point. and I was just going to do like a quick 15 minutes and then I had um other things that I had planned to do sort of in a different sequence and the book sucked me in and I ended up reading it, listening to it in almost one shot. It was really fantastic. Um thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely, man. I love that you've gotten into what I would refer to as the mindset space, just, you know, walking people through what you've learned over a pretty extraordinary life and career. What was the the origin behind wanting to write the book? I had been threatening to go away and see if those 36 years of diaries were worthy of putting into book form. I've been threatening myself to do that for 15 years. Um, never had the courage to do it. Figured, oh, you know what? In martyrdom, my wife or a good friend will look at those diaries and journals and if anything's worth sharing, they'll share it. And that was sort of a ch I was sort of chickening out with that idea. Um, so maybe it was coming on 50, although I'm not a sort of a numerologist where I think like, oh, I got to do things by a certain time, but maybe that had something to do with it. Um, I hired a ghost rider first to help me. We had one meeting and then he got pulled from the job by his boss and that was the best gift I could have been given. That was when I said, "Oh, okay. You need to go away." And my wife backed me up, said, "Yes, get out of here. Take that treasure chest full of journals and go see what you got." I felt like I had enough. I didn't know what it was, what it was going to be. I actually thought it was going to be much more academic than maybe it ended up being. Um, and early on in the writing process, I remember I had to pull back and go just look at what you have and let it reveal itself. And what revealed itself was stories, people, places, prescriptions, poems, prayers, and a whole lot of bumper stickers. So, there are my seven stacks. And then the central thing that came out of those was the title of the book, Green Lights. Now, [snorts] one of the um I don't know if you'd call it a bumper sticker or a prescription, but one of the things that you quote pretty early on in the book and seem to inform a lot of um the the core thesis of the book is the Gore Videll quote um which is style is knowing who you are, what you have to say, and not giving a damn. And uh I thought that was really fantastic. When I think about somebody having the sort of it factor that makes an actor memorable uh and allows them to stick with people. I mean, you know, starting as sort of a completely unknown kid working in a bar where a producer happened to come through. Um, and I think about how you translate that. You you go into detail about why that quote impacted you so much. What is it about that quote and the idea of knowing yourself that you found so useful? Well, what better subject to study than ourselves? What better subject to interrogate and investigate daily? What what's the one character that we are never going to get that that we should never get bored with chasing to figure out? But also, what's the one it's also the one character that we can't get away from ourselves. It's the one person that we can't get rid of. So I have enjoyed and not enjoyed investigating myself through through my life. Um I write about this in the book. I don't you know to form a personal style or to know who we are or what we want. That's hard to do. So I have learned to by process of elimination get rid of the things that you go well that is not me or that is just a fad. That's not going to ever be classic. That go that does not feed me. Um, that may be, for instance, there are certain pursuits we go, yeah, that may be an immediate green light that's just plugged into a battery, but that that that light's going to go out because that battery is going to die. That's not truly a solar powered green light. So, how style is finding those things where we go, oh, that's a solar powered green light. That's that's who I am and who I am not. So, we figured out who we're not first. I found that I was able to figure out who I was uh by process of elimination. Um, it's also, you know, I'd rather be a good man than a nice guy. That that that that that happens later. And that that come that's part of style. You know, I've always said this. I'm I I'd rather have an [ __ ] than a dork. Why? Because at least I know where the [ __ ] stands. The dork's trying to be everything to everybody that he thinks they want them to be. I don't want to be that. I don't I'm don't really enjoy being around that person because I can't trust them. Um, and when I've been one, I couldn't trust myself. Um, so style is also about, you know, once you do find your frequency on something, it go forward if you're a non-tyrant and don't ask permission. And that's the not giving a damn part. I found that the world will actually acquies and go, "Yep, I'll give you a green line that green light on that." If you actually go forward and mean it like you're and you're going to do it by hook or by crook and not ask permission. Yeah. There's several stories in the book about you not asking permission, whether it's um stealing the lumber to build the treehouse, which is a lot of fun. Um and then one thing that I really liked was when you first came to Hollywood and you were staying with a producer and he basically said, "Man, you you seem like you need a job, and if you seem like you need a job, you're never going to get one." And there's there's something about breaking into Hollywood that seems like the most sort of psychological breakin where everything else is it's more of a skill, right? Can you do the the accounting better? You can get a job in accounting. But there really is an intangible thing to breaking into Hollywood where people want to watch you. There's just something where the fact that this guy recognized it after spending a night with you in a bar. I think it was in a cab ride home or something where he says, "Hey, you ever thought about acting?" Um, talk to me about cultivating that the the I don't give a damn part and how that trip riding motorcycles in Sweden or wherever it was ended up being exactly what you needed. So, I move out to Hollywood. I've just I did Days Confused the summer of '92. I go back and graduate from University of Texas at Austin in 93. I do a quick stint in this Texas Chainsaw Massacre film. And then I drive out with my U-Haul and 2,000 bucks to sleep on the couch of that guy that I met in the bar two years prior. Um, who got who cast me my first job. $2,000. I know I'm sleeping on his couch, not paying rent, but $2,000 going to go pretty quickly. And I'm starting to after about two weeks, I can go on a dime, man. I need to Could you give me a meeting with an agent, man? I need to get an agent. I need get a job. And he snaps at me and as you read in the book, cusses me out and tells me, "Look, this town smells needy. you're done. You what you need to do is get the hell out of here and go do something with your buds and forget about Hollywood and what you think you need. Anyway, I did. I took off with my two buddies with what little money we had. And we motorcycleled through Europe for six weeks. Well, by the time I got back, I forgot all about needing an agent or oh, I need to get a part. I just had great life experience for six weeks. And so he then brings it up about a week after I'm back and goes, "You're ready." I go, "For what?" And he goes, "Tomorrow morning we got the meeting with the agent." I'm like, "Oh, great." He was right on the money cuz I was able to go into that meeting and be myself, be involved in that meeting, and not be so impressed that I got that meeting. I talk about that in the book. Less impressed, more involved. Um, you know, it's a trick, but it works in our life. I mean, sometimes if if something is number one on our list and we got to have it. Oh, we need it. We need a lot of times we don't get it. Think about it. Whether it's that girl or whether it's that friend or whatever it is, man, if you make them the number one thing in your life, they kind of go like, "Well, what else did you have going before you you came to me?" You know what I mean? I want somebody who had had their [ __ ] together before they came to came to me a little bit. If I'm your everything, then I'm probably a lot of times people go or situations will say, "No, we don't want you because you need us too bad." Um, something about taking that trip to Germany got that need out of my mind and the idea of getting a a job or an agent in Hollywood became subliminally number two on my list of priorities just by sheer that I kind of forgotten about it and wasn't thinking about it all the time. Well, that allowed me to relax, be involved in a meeting with an agent where they accepted me to then go out on auditions and actually get them because I was like, I really want this, but I don't need it. And there's a very there's a big difference. And Hollywood is is in and fame, there's a game in Hollywood. It is an affair. It's not necessarily a marriage. Um, and there's a game to play. And it's better to be better to want it and not need it. Yeah. The the idea of confidence, you've got the southern charm. There's no question. And I'm sure um you have a certain level of awareness about that. You know, one thing that I find so interesting about actors is they're so good at conveying emotion. They understand how they're coming across. And that level of self-awareness is obviously part of their power. When you think about developing self-awareness and translating that into confidence, is that tied to how much preparation you do? you know, how do you begin to in your early 20s have the kind of confidence where you can walk in with a bit of swagger, not need it, um, and and you know, captivate people like that? Well, I mean, I've always been very intentional. I I I will say this part of it is don't worry. Don't give a damn about the awareness. Don't get objective. Don't hop out of yourself and say, "How am I being received early?" The best work I've done, and I am very aware of that, but then the best work I've done in my career is when my head's down in the process, and it is completely a subjective experience, and I don't give a damn what you think about it or what anyone else thinks about it. And I sure as hell don't give a damn about the result because I'm in it. And I'm so in it that the last day of shooting they yell at rap and I go okay I'll see y'all tomorrow morning for the tomorrow's work and they go no it it's over like we finished film shooting rap there is no tomorrow then I'm like become objective for the first time so in many ways and I think especially today not just in in acting career but in all of our careers athletes uh everything is with so much you room to be objective. What are we on our phone? There's a jumbotron immediate response when we put something out. We may be becoming too objective or measuring too aware, giving too much credence to awareness of, oh, how am I perceived? You know, kids these days, it's what they put out, how it's received. If it's got enough thumbs up, they have a good day. If it's got enough thumbs down, they have a bad day. So, their entire our being and our attitude and how we feel about ourselves is more reliant. We're letting it be more reliant on what other people think about us today than ever before. I say lean into the subjective. I don't give a damn about what anyone else thinks. I'm done it. But but I'm going to chase down and do what's truest to me. And then it's time to pop out sometimes and read your reviews or have a look at the jumbotron or watch that watch that performance on playback. It's but but but if you're thinking about the result or thinking in the third person too early, I don't believe you do near as good or true of a job in the first person subjectively that you could do. Yeah. Your um your approach I find very intriguing. In the book, you talk about these walkabouts that you go on, and I I love that there seems to be a process to what you do versus like if everything just came easily to you, it would be far less interesting and far less instructive. But in the book, it's and I was trying to explain this to my wife and sister and I was saying, "You've got to read this book." Like it's actually really fascinating to hear how he has ends up having a wet dream that sends him to South America to float naked in the Amazon River and in that moment be you know has these realizations that he crystallizes in this journal and then he comes back and actually lives them and that like when I think about people trying to come up with their identity trying to create the space to figure out who they are who they're not to your point but they're they're they're trying to figure that out they don't know how to create that space, what the the walkabouts, the driving around, the in your 20s, you could have just posted up in Hollywood and gotten laid day after day after day. So, the fact that you were driving around the US floating in the Amazon, like what's the intention behind that? Yeah. Well, look, after that year I had in Australia where I was Tell people that story a little quickly. The duos was [laughter] absolutely [ __ ] hilarious, man. I'm glad you found it funny. I think it's hilarious, too. It's a black comedy. So, so I graduate high school, Long View, Texas. Now, in my family, which is a high disciplined family, once you turn 18, freedom, no curfew. If you hadn't learned it yet, not going to learn it. Well, I've just graduated high school. I got 45 bucks in my pocket from a job I got. I got a four handicap. I've just made two holes in ones 11 days apart last month. I got the best I'm dating the best looking girl in my school. And across town, I've made straight A, so mom and dad are super happy. I got a car that's paid for and I got no curfew. And right out of that, I decide I'm going to go away to Australia to be an exchange student. It was Australia or Sweden. And I remember writing down in my 18-year-old mind, Sunny Beaches, El McFersonson, English speaking, Australia. So I head off to Australia. Um, and I'm told by this family that I'm going to live with, we live here. It's a beautiful place. We live on the outskirts of Sydney. You're going to love it. [clears throat] Well, very quickly after I meet this family and three-hour drive out of Sydney, which is a bit of an exaggeration of what the outskirts are, we arrive at this little small home in the middle of the country, uh, outside of the town that was population 305. Um, definitely not what I thought of the outskirts of Sydney. Elle McFersonson was probably going to be nowhere close unless she was running across the the the the the ranch land out there. And there were no beaches in sight. Um, they did speak English though, so one out of three. Anyway, that year there uh was a trying one for me where I had to find my identity and was forced to go introspective. I had ran across some very odd dealings. And that what was valuable about the year is remember where I was coming from, all the green lights I was catching rolling. Well, all of a sudden that was a screeching red light halt. I had no car. I had no money. I had no girlfriend. I had no buddies. I had no golf clubs. I did have a curfew and I just had nobody I could question. So I started writing and writing letters and a lot of people wouldn't return those letters because those letters were I understand they were getting very heady and they were long and they were laborious letters to whoever was reading them on the other end of the line. So I began writing letters to myself and then I'd write a letter back to myself. Well, I won't give you all the details, but I decide to create resistance in my life, things that I can overcome daily. Basically, I didn't know it then, but I was just just to keep my insanity. Sometimes when we're lost and we're like, I don't know what the hell's going on in life. For me, I began running six miles a day. I decided to become celibate for the entire year. Uh, I become a vegetarian. Um, I'm, you know, I'm convinced my my calling is to go to South Africa after this and help free Nelson Mandela. So when I'd run that six miles a day, when I would stay celibate, when I would uh uh um you know eat my head of iceberg lettuce with ketchup on it because I was a vegetarian, these were little things that I could achieve in the day to give me some force of okay, I did that gave me some sort of sanity, but not to was it partly about control? Like that's that's a lot of sort of self-denial. It's interesting that you chose high discipline things. Yes. Well, you know, trust I mean, there was a run in there where on Friday nights with the one bar in town, I would go out and drink a hell of a lot more than I probably should have just to escape it. You know what I mean? But during the week, I needed these little things to go, okay, I can check that off my list because the rest of my life in my is anarchy right now. And I don't know who to trust, what to believe, what matters. This is weird. I think what's going on? I needed a few things. I going, okay, you ran six miles. Check. Okay, you didn't eat meat again. You ate less. Check. You were celibate again. Check. [snorts] I needed these little these restrictions to give me some form or give me some sense of structure where I can just feel my feet on the ground and go, I'm holding my head above water going through this time. But at least I know what rope to hold on to. And it's these disciplines that I put in front of myself. Um anyway, the year was wild and carny. Um, and a year though that in hindsight I would not be sitting here talking to you with the life I have if I did not have that year because I learned to stick with myself. I learned I I was never going to pull the parachute and say, "I'm going back home." Why not? It's wild. Well, I'd given a handshake deal on it. And in my mind, just a handshake deal meant that much to you. But a handshake deal meant that much. And it meant that much to my father. And the fact that in my gut in the when you know at even at even at 5:30 when I would leave the dinner table to go back for my nightly ritual and I'd go back and I'd write and do these things. Um even then in my gut I always had a hunch that wait a minute [clears throat] you finish this out you finish it out there's light on the other end of this tunnel. There's something you're supposed to learn. MCA, I would tell myself, there's some there's a golden lesson in here. You don't know what it is, but if you stick to it, the lesson will be even more worthy the longer you pay your penance. So, I saw it as a penance. I didn't know what the answer was going to be. Um, but it the the answer was was was incredible. Like I said, I wouldn't be here now without that time. I've been it helped me deal with other crisises after that, which I just didn't even give those crisises credit because they were nothing compared to what I had just gone through. Um, so I had callous skin in a way. Um, and it helped me. That's when I really began writing in earnest. Uh, that's when I really came to know myself because I had to rely only on myself for the decisions and what reality was and wasn't. Um, and so I came at that's where I got a great identity. And so if I wouldn't have had that year for instance, maybe I would have gone to Hollywood and not been able to take those walkabouts when I needed to find my balance. Maybe I would have not known, hey, you need to go off and be with yourself. You need to go through some uncomfortable times with yourself to come out the other side, which always happened for me when I did take those walkabouts. I did come out the other side shaking hands with myself and going, "Hey, it's you and you. You're the only person I can't get rid of. So, let's figure out how to get along here." So, those trips away on my own after the Australian trip were always about let's go figure out, Matthew, what we're going to forgive and what we're going to say enough's enough about. And that would the first 10 days of those trips on my own have always been hell. They were they were not not I did not enjoy the company and the company was me until I got on the other side and um you know after about usually around day 10 I figure out what I'm going to forgive, what I'm not going to put up with anymore and then we move on and then all of a sudden I'm enjoying my company and I'm having a good time and I'm present again recalibrating. there's um a subtle thing that's happening there that I hope people take away which is you knew that there is something to be extracted from living life. So you know whether you would agree with the statement that there's power in loneliness um certainly you were creating situations from which you had the frame of reference I can extract value from this. How did you get that frame of reference? Like that's so useful, but I don't think most people have that. I, you know, I don't know exactly where where I got it. I mean, I would say again to call back that Australian year where I did not have a choice where I was forced into that situation and saw the green light assets from being alone and quite lonely. Um, I do think uh that there's great value in being alone. And if we are alone and we get bored and we don't like the company, ding, may that light go off to say that does not mean we need to pick up our phone to get some attention or go to the bottle to to to to ease the anxiety or go online to get some feedback to entertain ourselves. No, it's actually a great time to say no. sit here in that discomfort long enough to go okay until you come out the other side to go all right I'm good with me again now it's it's part of that I write about when about traveling in general ideally you don't go to a place you don't I always say this don't I don't want to leave a place I travel to until I get to the point of going ah I could live here this could be my existence and soon as I get to that point then I'm like okay you can go now I can go. That's the same thing in the personal journeys. Stick with it till you get through the discomfortable to uncomfortable times until you go, you know what? I can spend time with myself. I could do this. I could do this forever. Well, then it's okay to go re-engage, pick up your phone, go see your friends, go have a drink, what have you. Go look for those things that are other relationships in life. But hopefully not until there's great value in not doing that until you go, I'm good with me and me for right now. That's really interesting given the context of some of the stories um that you tell. So you've got the floating down the Amazon River. So assuming that that falls into that same camp of I'm going to be here in what is obviously very different than city life that you'd been used to. I know you traveled to to rural Africa it sounded like at one point and have a a pretty interesting uh time there including a wrestling match uh which is a phenomenal story. Um, so when you're there, what you're trying to process through is the whatever beef you're having with yourself at that moment or is it something about a daily life that involves activity, sweating, finding a way without sort of modern conveniences? What What is the breakthrough? It's the breakthrough is I mean, I didn't I don't go there going, "Oh, I'm going to I got to work something out." It's more about I'm going to put myself in a place where I'm going to be forced to work something out. And that goes back to that place you're talking about that's very hard to find. Sometimes we don't know what it is we're trying to figure out. But can we put oursel in a place that may be very uncomfortable where you're going to go, well, I'm going to be forced to. So, I go to a place where no one knows my name, does not have any idea that I'm an actor, has never seen my face, has no idea if I'm famous, does not speak the lang same language, which is another thing to force you on yourself because you get in a Socratic dialogue because you don't understand what everyone's talking about. Um, and you are then forced to have a Socratic dialogue. You're forced to put a pen to paper for your own entertainment and you're forced to quiet times where you're sitting there wishing you could go to sleep because it feels like it's 10 p.m. but it's actually only 5:00 p.m. and you're like, "Holy [ __ ] time's moving so slow with this day. Hurry up. It's uncomfortable." Oh, okay. 10 12 days after that. I'm not enjoying the trip, but I know I have a destination. I have a place that I'm going that's 22 days away. My flight back is not for another 22 days. So, I'm not going anywhere for 22 days and I've arrived and say we're on day 10 and I'm going through hell and not enjoying myself. I'm on the move. I do I do recommend do doing these things when you can break a sweat doing them. Don't go lock yourself in a room [laughter] unless you want to pad the walls and put on a the helmet and the chin strap and a mouth guard. You know what I mean? I mean, take a trip. Mother nature has a big help. It has been for me to go off and then have a journey. Oh, I got to each day I have it's a 14 mile hike to this place. I need to get there. Uh fatigue can be very good for us in that way and letting relax in our mind and get some things out. Um and then after the 12 days of not enjoying my company, that's when I usually have some sort of purge, wake up, and the rest of the trip is just glorious. And that's when the lessons start to come for me anyway. It's that next 10 days after I've gone through the the the the not enjoying my own company. That's when I start to that's when my pens to paper writing beautiful stuff, truisms, things that landed, things that I'm learning because I'm being very present. But the first 10 are just the stuff I'm writing then is you know the the who, what, where, when, how, who, what, where, when, how, and why's you know to all the questions, the the the the mental almost paralysis. Well, after that becomes, ah, now I'm seeing beauty. Now I'm seeing poetry in life. Now I'm seeing how my actions reverb with with life and it comes back to me in the same way that I gave it out. Then life becomes a dance and a song. Um, and that's when the trips are beautiful. But only because I went through the I stuck with the the early penance of it. And when you I wish you I wish I didn't have to go through that 10 days. I wish you could just be like, okay, I'm here now. It just didn't work that It just never seems to work that way. [snorts] And when you talk about penance, basically there's um for whatever reason for you, for all of us, there's something that's hard that we have to get through, but if we're willing to do that, whether it's sweating, whether it's doing the hard emotional work, um that there's some reward on the other side of that. Absolutely. There's great value in that. We can deny it. I deny it all the time certain things. But I'm sure many of you I know myself when I keep denying it. It comes out eventually and usually in a very awkward way sometimes in a public space where it's like oh man that bubbled over then I just ah and and I regret it. I'm like you should have gone off and dealt with that on your own before you went out and said I can try to keep it at bay knowing because it's going to come out. It will come out. It will come out awkwardly in a relationship. You'll take it out on your your significant other, a friend, you'll take it out on a stranger, it'll it'll come out somewhere in an awkward way and and and you regret it. I know I have. Do you think that identity is something that we're um you're doing this internal work to uncover who you are or is there a sense of creation? Uncover or create? That's a great question, great concept. How much do you uncover and how much do you create? Um, I mean, I would have to say my first gut feeling is that those two are part and parcel. What you're uncovering because I mean, we all have everything in us. I we we all every human has every everything that every other human has in us. Now, we have it to different we have different innate abilities to different extents. Some of us, you know, are born with a higher level of an innate ability than someone else. But everyone else has some version of the of the abilities that everyone else has. So I think we are uncovering it, but let it expose itself. But the creating it is what gives the uncovering some what we uncover some form. Um because there's there's there's things that I've uncovered that I may go, "Oh, wow. That I didn't know you had a talent for that, Matthew, but I don't pursue it." because I'm like going no that's I only need in my four avenues of the four things that I'm I want to follow through on in my life that really doesn't fit in one but put that on the side as a little hobby you know maybe you'll go to it just remember remember that actually you know what you're pretty good at conducting an orchestra but I'm not going to be an orchestral conductor right now for instance you know what I mean um so it's create it's uncovering but then I think the creation is where do you channel it and I know I'm very intentional I want to channel if we can If we can channel our innate abil what we do have a great innate ability with what we're willing to cultivate, work at, hustle at, read about, learn about, keep our eyes open every day through the world. That's when we can make have maybe have a career instead of a job. That's when maybe we can do something that makes us look forward to Mondays. Um, not everybody I don't believe everybody can do what they love to do. If everyone just did what they love to do, we'd have an extremely high unemployment rate rate. You know what I mean? So, I have learned to love some things that I didn't like doing. Um, I have I still do things that I don't love to do, but I know tee me up for more time to do what I love later. Um, so the ideal I think is if you can find your own innate ability and then educate and work your butt off to to to learn more about that. And if you can form that into something that is a demand, if you can make that something you can supply something to the world that is in demand that maybe the world doesn't even know they're demanding it or should, then that's the honey hole. We can find that spot. One of the things that um I find really inspiring about you and how you move through the world is is that degree of intention looking for those honey spots. finding like when you were sort of burning out on being uh the romcom guy, you went cold turkey on that for 20 months or whatever before the um next bout of job offers came in and and now have really reinvented yourself and obviously stepped into Academy Award-winning performances and and that is really extraordinary when you think about creating that and being true to yourself and taking that risk to step into the unknown. How do you conceptualize that? So many people get trapped by fame. They get trapped by the success and they're never able to um reinvent themselves. There's there's something heartachingly sad about the person who's primed past them and they didn't reinvent themselves. Um how were you able to do that? Have a whole second set of the highest level of success ever. And which gives me the feeling that you know whether it's chasing being the ministry of culture or whatever whenever you decide that you wanted to move on beyond acting that you would just have a whole another thing. Um how how did you not get trapped by fame? Well, it was hard because you know, I so happy to be even have the job I have. It's so so happy to be doing what I get to do. But again, being less impressed and more involved, I had to go, "Wait a minute. This is still very impressive and you can still be very respectful of the situation you're in, Matthew, and you're affluent and you're, you know, doing romcoms and you like doing romcoms." And I do and I did. And I was shirtless on the beach. I was like, "Yes, and those romcoms are paying rent for those houses that I'm running shirtless on the beach for." Yes, sir. That is I thank you. Guilty fact. At the same time, I was like, I'm not don't feel like I'm growing in my work. And my life had at that time had become extremely vital. Meaning, I just had a newborn son with Camila. Wow. The only thing I ever knew I wanted to be, and now I was. And here's this the job that I had held most reverence for in my life, fatherhood. Now I was uh I was the my emotions, the ceiling in the basement of my emotions, the range was so wide. I was laughing louder, crying harder, getting angry or showing more joy, having more sadness, all all across the board. All emotions were much more extreme than they were or could be in the work because there's a very compressed emotional ceiling and basement that is sort of inherent to romcoms. They have to be buoyant. They have to stay within a certain frequency and bounce along the clouds. If you hang your hat on humanity or get love as hard or get as angry as you might in real life in a romcom, you can sink that ship and the movie's over. You know, you don't in the romcom, the couple doesn't make it back if you get too mad or too happy. You know what I mean? So, I said, "Your life's more vital than your work." Okay. Well, if it's got to be one way, the other, congratulations, Matthew. Good. But, can my work challenge the vitality I'm feeling in my life? So the work I wanted to do, I certain scripts I wanted, wanted to do Dallas Spy Club at that time, other scripts, nobody's going to touch me with a 10-ft pole in those movies. All the dramatic roles I wanted, they're like, "No, no, no, not in MCA. We won't finance it." Okay, so I can't do what I want to do. So I'm going to stop doing what I've been doing. So I stopped doing romcoms. I said, "No." I stopped. Well, for the first six months of not doing romcoms, I wasn't doing anything. Only thing that came in was romcoms. I said, "No, no, no, no, no." Finally, nothing came in. And for 14 more months, nothing came in. I considered other careers. Didn't know if I'd ever work again. But after 20 months of being gone, unbranding as I now call it, being out of sight, not being in your theater or your living room in a romcom, not seeing me shirtless on the beach, I became a new good idea for some of those dramatic roles because where's he been? I don't know. I haven't seen him. Where has he been? So I was kind of refound and and looked at in a different way. You know what would be an interesting idea? Who wouldn't have been an interesting idea for Lincoln lawyer two years ago but is now MCA. So it was a reccalibration but it was a long unbranding phase. Um I I I I had to do that for myself. I loved doing the romcoms but I was getting the scripts and I felt like I could do the same script tomorrow morning. And I was like, that's fine, but I want something that's going to make me sweat in my boots. I want some work that's going to challenge me, make me go, I'm scared of this role for all the right reasons, and I can't wait to go attack it and see what I come see how I come up the other side. That's what I was looking for. And I wasn't getting that in the romcoms. So, I stopped doing those and 20 months later, the roles that I wanted to do that did make me do those things came to me. Now, why do you pursue things that scare you? Why seek the role that's hard? Because it cost me something. because it cost comes with a price. It's it's a bit of that line, don't pick a fight, can't it's not really a fight unless you can lose it. It's not really, you know, don't it's not really a risk unless you can lose the fight. I feel more alive in them. I have an experience in the making of them. I'm nervous every day I come to work. I feel like when I nail a day and I knock it and I know I did, I feel like yes, I get I I have a measure at the end of the day like you set out to do something. You prepared for it. You had intention and you did it and maybe even became found some magic in the day that I sleep good knowing that I accomplished that day in building the architecture of a character's arc through a story. And then if I can put the whole thing together and it comes out the whole one whole performance turns out to be a beautiful song, an original song of that character, then I'm like, yes. And I know that I was highly responsible for that. I was not solely responsible, but the most responsible for that. And that gives me pleasure. That gives me gratification. That makes me feel gives me significance. That gives me confidence. If I don't pull it off and I do have a day where I'm like, "Oh, no, you didn't." And it was my fault. I still I would rather with these kind of roles, I can look in the mirror and go, "So, guess who's responsible for not pulling it off? You kind of in the same way when I go, guess who's responsible for pulling off?" I like knowing who you. And and and and it was also again work that challenged the vitality of my life. Dram dramatic roles allow you the actor to have as high of a ceiling or as low of a basement from love to hate from happiness to pain as that particular actor wants to bring to it. That's what's inherently beautiful about dramas. Okay, you're the part you're playing the role. How does how is are you going to emulate that person through yourself? Um that is a vital thing that I feel that makes me sweat. That makes me sleep better at the end of the day. That gives me a sense of accomplishment. I'm like, yes, I did what I intended to do. I prepared for it, was ready. Oh, the day didn't go how I thought it was going to go, but I I called audles along the way, enrolled, and still told the truth on my man, the character. That gratification feels good. I love the concept of having to earn your Saturday, which you talk about in the book. Um, my favorite story from the book around this theme is when you go to Africa and you get into the wrestling match and they're cheering your name, Dota. I it wasn't actually your name Ga. Um, walk us through that story because the punchline to that story is is a life lesson I think for all of us. There's a few punchlines. I hope I hit the right one. If I don't, just follow me up [laughter] and it's it's I will happily feedback your punchline to you if uh if it doesn't come up. So I go, this was following, literally following one, two, the third time I had this very specific dream. That was the third time I had it in over eight years. And the first second time I had it, I went to Peru. In this dream, I was floating down the Amazon River on my back, wrapped up in anacondas, pythons, uh, piranhas, uh, freshwater sharks, etc. And the left bank of the river all the way down past the horizon was lined with African tribesmen with spears and shields. It was an 11-second dream. 11 frames. Frame. Frame. Frame. 11. And at the end of it, what those pictures look like they would be a nightmare. It was a wet dream. Three different times. So when I had it the second time, I said, 'W whoa, okay, there's somebody call. There's a calling here. I got to follow this. So I chase down the Amazon, went to Peru. Now we get to I have it again in 99. And I'm like, oh geez, I guess this is telling me to go chase down the second half of my dream. Now what's the only other thing I know in the dream geographically? African tribes. So I got to go to Africa. Well, I decided to go. I didn't know where to go to Africa. So I I I one of my favorite musicians was Ali Faraturé. And I've been listening to him and I said, "Oh, where is he from?" Nafunk. I get a ticket to Bamako, hitchhike nine hours to Miy, get dropped off, meet one guy who speaks English, uh, finds a guy to haggle over dinner, and the next day we're on a boat headed up the Niger River to go find Ali. We find him four days later. After I find him, four days into my trip, I'm like, "Well, now where do we go? I don't know what my is this is. Was that all of my dream? Was that what I supposed to see?" Well, my guide Issa, very wise man, says, "I believe there's a place that you will um you will remember Da. It's called the Banagara. We go to the dog on country. We go up in the boat and we go and we hike many days to the from village to village and each village you come to, we get to the uh the the the boundary and the chief come and if the chief like what he see in your eyes, he raise his hand. You give him soft handshake. If he don't like what he see in your eyes, we keep walking to next village to hopefully find chief that like what he see in your eyes." Well, we go on this trip. It's beautiful. We're hiking eight to 14 miles a day to these different tribes, sleeping on the roof each night. It's beautiful. One day, I get to this place called Bijimatu. It's a beautiful uh um village in the top of the the mountains there, and it's split. There's there's there's a Muslim third, uh there's an Animus third, and there's a Christian third, and they all live together. Well, I've been hiking all day. It was a 14- milei hike. And I I'm laying there like I did when I would arrive from these hikes. I'm stretching on the ground and working out the day's kinks. And you know, when I would arrive in village, I was sort of the village entertainment cuz my skin was light, had a beard, who's this traveler? So the village starts to gather around. Kids and middle-aged people. There's about 30 people gathered around. And two of these young strapping young African boys are about 19 start kind of but and I could tell they were challenging me. I look over to Isa. I said are they challenging me? He's like yes Da they they they they want to wrestle strong white men named Da which is the name I went under David which became Da. And he goes they say they are the champion wrestlers of the village and they challenge Da to wrestling match. Oh, here we go. My heart's beating. So, I decide to stretch [laughter] this out. And all of a sudden, that that conversation is gathered now about 50 villagers around. All of a sudden, while I'm stretching, looking up at the sky, thinking about this challenge, the village starts screaming. All high pitch screaming. I look up. The two boys who were challenged me, boom, running [clears throat] opposite way, sprinting, and all the villagers are laughing and going on. Well, why are they laughing? Because guess who steps up where the two boys were right over me? Michelle, the real champion of the village wrestler. So, the two boys were talking noise saying they were champions when actually this guy is the real champion. Tree trunk legs, burlap bag tied around his waist, no shirt. He stands over me, points down at me, points to his chest, and points over there. As he does this, I know that this is a direct challenge. The crowd's going crazy as my heart starts beating and I'm going like, "No effing way." In this ear, and this ear is going, "Are you kidding me? You will regret not finding out what happened." So, I get up, stand in front of him, point to his chest, point to my chest, look over there, and head that way. Now, what's where am I heading? There's a big dirt pit. The crowd goes crazy. Now, I've Here comes Strong White Mandata and Michelle are going to have a match. We're in the middle of the ring. I don't know what the rules are. I don't know if there's hitting. I don't know if there's biting. I don't know. There seem to be no weapon, so that's good. And but he he he he reaches down. He grabs my waist really stern and looks at me to like mirror him. I grab him by the waist. He puts his other arm down. So, he's holding me by the waist with two hands and I'm holding him by the waist. We're face to face. Then he lowers his forehead and digs it into my collar bone right here. This clavicle right here. Digs it in. I do the same. So now we're ear to ear holding each other's waist and we're moving down into this position like two bulls in the middle of this dirt pit. The chief comes over, puts hands on both our heads and goes dot. Crowd goes crazy. I realize that dot means ding ding. And we get going and he takes me down. I flip him over my back. I get up, take him down. We go around and around. I get slammed. I slam him. He gets me in a leg lock. I almost lose my breath and black out. I come out of it. Get him in a headlock. All of a sudden, the chief comes in, splits us up. It's been about probably it felt like 30 minutes. Probably only been like two two and a half. We stand up. I'm pouring sweat, hyperventilating. I had had these talismans that were sewed in my beard at the time. Two of them are ripped out. So, I've got blood running down my neck and chest. My knees are bleeding. My ankles are bleeding. And again, I'm huffing and puffing. Now, mind you, I was in pretty damn good shape at this time. I just come off this film, Rain of Fire. So, I was in pretty good shape, but still Michelle was like tree trunk legs and it's just a sturdy rock. I look at him, not a beat of sweat. Maybe just a glisten of sweat, but he's not happy. The crowd is very happy for some reason. He's not happy. He's just stonefaced looking at me while I'm going. [sighs and gasps] All of a sudden, the chief goes round two. Waist to waste. Head down the clavicle. Here we go. Crowd's going ape [ __ ] Here we go. Bam. Ding ding. We go around again. Same thing's going. I catapult him over my head. He comes down. I come in. He leg locks me again. We go from headlocks. I get him in a Boston crab. He flips me over. All of a sudden, chief comes in, breaks us up, raises both our hands. The crowd is dizzying now, frantically screaming. Michelle runs away. Now it's just me. The crowd starts going da da da da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d and I'm just engulfed by about a hundred of the villagers. Well, I go uh on that night very happy with my day that I accepted the challenge and wow, I I think I did pretty good, you know. I mean, I I I sleep that night. I think uh um I've kind of crossed a cradle of truth, you know. I see the the the the the Northern Cross for the first time and the stars in the sky. I wasn't looking for it. It revealed itself. Laid there awake, saw 29 shooting stars. One of those moments where I really felt like, ta, I'm in the cradle of truth. This is it. I'm really on it. Which maybe I was. But as I'm thinking this and feeling so good about myself, I'm really feeling like I am now in tune with the one, divine one. I'm laying there on top as I'm about to go to sleep that night. Feeling so good about myself, so high about myself. [laughter] And I go as I get a little my nose blocks up as I'm just about to go to sleep. And I had some mucus in my nose. So I I I sit up, [clears throat] hawk up a big lugie, for a better word, and go to launch it off the the roof. [snorts] I had forgot that I had had mosquito net on. [laughter] So the lugie goes whoop and just splatters across my face like an oyster. And I remember just starting to howl in laughter because I was just in the moment where I was feeling like I am here the chosen one. I spit a lugie in my own face. So touche. Um anyway, the next morning we get up to leave and as we get to the edge of the uh boundary to that village on the way to our next 11 mile hike to the next village, guess who's waiting for me? Michelle doesn't say a word, looks me in the eye and as I cross the boundary to go, he looks at me, walks up, grabs my hand, holds my hand and walked with me the 11 miles to the next village. We didn't say a word. Get to the next village. Soon as I got to the boundary, met the chief, got left in, he gave a slight bow, turned around and walked back home. Wow. I go to Issa that night, my guide. I said, "Isa, let's talk about last night, the wrestling match. I mean, I think I I I I did pretty good." He's like, "Oh, no, Da. You do very, very good." Very, very good. Everybody believe that Michelle's going to have strong white men named Dada on his back in 10 seconds. You did very, very good. I said, "Yo, good. Yeah, great." He goes, I go, "Why was everyone, you know, so chanting my name?" I mean it was like you big man in this village not because you handle Michelle but mainly because you accept the challenge when you accept the challenge you big man in this village but you also very good wrestler doub I said yeah well you know I wrestled my two older brothers he goes you know Michelle he's not only champion this village Michelle is champion this village and tree village back champion wrestler I said oh really he goes yes now you come back we make honey. [laughter] And I went back there unannounced six years later, Michelle had had four kids, busted hip, no wrestling match. 6 years later, the next morning after Benjamatu, when I left to go hike to the next village 11 miles away, guess who was again waiting for me at the boundary, who held my hand and walked me the 11 miles without saying a word to the next village, bowed and walked back. Michelle, yeah, I love that story because it's about accepting the challenge, right? So win or lose, it's like that rocky moment, just going the distance. that is what matters. And you know, looking at your life and the way that you've navigated it, it's it's and you really have to read the book to get how many times over and over and over you do this. Um, you know, nothing in your life was self-evident or obvious. Not like you came from a wealthy family or a Hollywood family, you know? I mean, it was it was the sort of scrappy way that you get the job in the bar in the first place and then obviously earn the respect to people. So they introduce you to this guy, but then you've, you know, you know who you are, at least at that moment in your life. And so there's that effortlessness, the charm to get it, but then always accepting the the what if and the the big what if of not taking the work, it could have ended. I mean, you said you actually seriously considered going back and teaching fourth grade or becoming a high school football coach. And so when people think about Matthew McConna, oh yeah, I remember he used to act, but now he's a fourth grade teacher. it for you to step into that space and be like, I I didn't need to leave that space because I was okay being the high school teacher or the fourth grade teacher. I didn't need to leave, you know, the wrestling match because I was okay losing the wrestling match. It's just like accepting those challenges is why you've survived for so long in a business that eats people up faster than the NFL. Well, how many times do we think as our first thought, oh well, if I did that, if I became that fourth grade teacher, that would be a demotion or a demotive move in my life. No, it wouldn't have been. It would not have been. I'm glad I didn't have to do it now in hindsight, but that would not have been a demotion. I would have found certain value that was going to fill my soul in that ro in that role that I was not finding doing the work I was doing in in Hollywood. So, it would not have been a a demotion. It may have been perceived as one, but I I I look, I've got and I've got friends, and trust me, I've done it myself, you know, that lose a job and then get another, but won't take it because it's less salary than maybe the one they had before. and all of a sudden find themselves three, four, five, six, seven, eight years, a decade later going they're still stuck. They they didn't do anything. They're still saying like, "No, I'm going to find that thing." And I'm going like, "You missed a decade, man. Just go do that one that that you love to do that maybe was going to pay you less because you'd at least been building something through the day." And who knows what that would have led to. Maybe that would have led to something where you're getting paid five times more than you were doing something else you love even more. Uh, so a lot of times I say this in the in in the book, sometimes it's not even about what choice we make. Just make a choice and commit to it and go and dive in because we can look up. Limbo sucks. We're all in limbo now with co limbo sucks. But sometimes just go, I don't know what to do. I'm just going to do this one and I'm just going to do it. And if I do this to the best of my ability, sometimes that lens, somebody sees us do that and they come up and they go, you're actually more qualified. You're overqualified for this job. You should be doing that. like, "Yeah, that's what I really like to do." They'll see it. But put oursel in a position, right? Because you can look up and days, weeks, months, years can go by and you can go, "I've been tiptoeing around here, not committing to anything for so damn long. I'm missing out." Yeah. You talk about us being in limbo right now, and I know your obsession is values. Values in your own life, values to pass on to your kids, values for us as a society, um, to take away. and you gave a commencement speech at your alma mater that I thought was awesome and it felt a bit like a dry run for the book because so many of the themes carry into green lights but man really really truly first of all the book is amazing and I I really mean that the commencement speech was amazing some of the the values that you talked on um I think are so powerful especially right now uh the world isn't fair it's never going to be life isn't easy don't want it to be which I thought was really interesting. You're going to have to earn your way forward and that we should want it that way. Um what are some values, whether those or others, that you think people um will get more out of their own life if they embrace that there's a responsibility to freedom and that there is freedom in responsibility, you know, and that earn your way there. We remember the stuff we earn, the stuff we experience more than what the teacher tells us or what someone gives us for free. We just do. We broke a proverbial sweat on it. Whether it was mental or physical or whatever, we we we we built it. We we understand, we felt how we got it, how we achieved it, how we got what we wanted. Those stick with us whether we forget them intellectually. They were written in our lineage and they build resilience and they and and and they build a healthy true optimism going forward to know that oh no I've I've I've worked for something before and achieved it. Delayed gratification. Oh there choices I can make today for myself that will pay me back later in life. Mailbox money as we call it entertainment industry. Um ROI. There are specific personal choices we can make and they're worth considering. Look, I'm all for hedonism. I'm all for immediate gratification, too. Sometimes it's like, "Yes, dude. It's Halloween. Eat all the candy you want. Go for it." It's not going to become a habit dayto day. There's certain nights where you're like, "Hey guys, tonight we're going to blow it out. The walls are patted and we got nothing. We're off work on Monday. Let's go." You know, I mean, certain times to say that's okay. But there's, you know, I Where is the selfish choice? this the selfless choice. Where is what we want actually what we need? Where is what we need actually what we want? Where is the best choice for me? The best choice for we where's the best choice for we the best choice for me. That's the place I believe the hunt talk about honey holes. That's the real place to go forward in trying to find um tee ourselves up for those green lights in the future. And all the and I I mean the simple things. Let me bring it down to a really simple one. You drink coffee? I do. Do you prepare your coffee, put it in the filter, and pour the water in the coffee maker the night before? Not for myself, but ironically, I do for my wife. Because you're teeing her up for what? A green light the next morning. Correct. So, she doesn't have to come in and go, "Where's that filter?" She can just come in and go, "Press the button." You're giving her a gift to her future self. You're making something easier for her. It's a very simple thing, but it's a great little simple metaphor. So there are choices we make. If you're going to say right now, I'm going to lie, cheat, and steal to get what I want. And I got it. I got an immediate green light for me. That's a battery powered green light. That's not a solar powered green light. Why? Because now everywhere I go, I got to look over my shoulder to see if someone's there that I lied, cheat, and stole from. And when I'm doing that, I'm stealing whose time? My time. Now I'm not freedom. I'm not free. I don't have the freedom. I didn't create freedom in my future because I chose to be make an irresponsible act that I left crumbs. I've now got reasons to look over my shoulder. And the more things we do to create in our in our future that we got to look over our shoulder, the more of our most precious thing we have in our lives, time that we're stealing from ourselves. So, it's not puritanical. It's just like it's actually self-s serving. It's a very selfish choice. Um, and and I'm a fan of the word selfish. I've re helped redefine it. Um, but I believe that there are selfish choices we can make that are the most selfless that there are selfless choices that we can make that are the most selfish choices. Those two are not a contradiction and we see them that way. Um, responsibility of freedom and the freedom in responsibility. Life's more than just straight Saturdays with as much cake as you want to eat. It just is. We see how long you last doing that. If you really do it, you won't last that long. um that there we we we responsibility is is appreciation of a past. It's building of a lineage. It's investing in ourselves. It's investing in something we started to build yesterday that we want to take into tomorrow. There's a respon that gives us freedom. So to actually have true freedom we have to take certain we have to be responsible more responsible for certain things for ourselves who we are constantly investigating and interrogating our better selves to say I'm going to be a little bit better at this tomorrow knowing that we never land we never we never there's no there's no tada moment and that is one thing I think we all got to watch because we all are so resultoriented oh if I keep doing this I'm going to get to that place of pure enlightenment I'm going to go tada Tada. [ __ ] [laughter] No, you don't. Can it be a small ascension of evolution? Yes. But there's no ta-da moment. We're always chasing yet. And if we can get comfortable and understand and laugh at and and and be ready to work hard at the fact that we're all just if we could just say we're all just achieving our way to the unachievable. And that's as good as it gets. And that's pretty damn awesome. That's the honey hole. It's the third time I've said that in this talk, but I love that [laughter] word. I love that, man. Would you say that your book contains the the bulk of the wisdom that you'd want to pass on to your kids, or is there a key concept that didn't make the book that you're trying to instill in them? It's it's definitely in the book. It's not in the book in a form that my kids 12, 10, and seven need to digest it right now because um there's just the way the true stories would raise too many questions where they may miss the the actual, you know, moral of the story. You know, my my parents instilled that the first four times I got in trouble and in my family grow up as a kid, our version of getting in trouble was getting a whooping, right? was for not answering to my name, for saying I can't, and for saying I hate you to my brother, and for lying. There were values instilled in those four things. Those were words that hurt. Not the whooping I got. But if you if I'd have gone through life, answering to whatever name, lying, thinking I can't do stuff instead of feeling like I was having trouble and hating. I that would hurt me. That would have hurt me in my future life. I would not be who I am. I would that would be those would be a hurtful way for me to go on living life to grow into a human. And I think that can apply for for everybody. It's something we try to steal in our children. I remember this great story my dad um after I'd already learned the lesson of don't say can't but forgot the lesson. I was doing my going out to do my chores one Saturday morning. Part of those were mow the yard weedy. Crank the lawn mower three times, four times, five times, five. Put it on choke. It won't go a damn it. It won't start. I go inside. I go, "Dad, I can't I can't start the lawn mower." He goes, I saw his mers meet and I went, "Uh oh." Oh, and I knew right when I said, "Oh, I said that bad word." Can't. He didn't say a word. He got up slowly, walked out of the bedroom, through the kitchen, out of the garage, around to the back shed where the lawnmower was. Pulled it a few times, it didn't start. He leaned down, got a screwdriver, took something off, fixed this gas leak where he got the the the tube hooked back up, so it was getting gas. All of a sudden, he cranks it and it's running. And he walked over to me and he looked at me. He kind of leaned down on on hands on his front of his knees and looked me in the eye. goes, "You see, son, you were just having trouble." Beautiful was right. Sometimes, you know, we can't do it ourselves. We have trouble do. We can seek help. Someone else can help us do that. So, we we try to instill in our children that same thing. No, no, no. Don't say can't. They don't they're not 100% perfect at it, but we're trying to them help them understand why can't and hate are actually better words than [ __ ] [ __ ] damn. You know what I mean? They're not good for you. They're not good for your future. They don't they if you live hating and feeling like you can't do stuff or lying, you're not going to create green lights in your future for yourself. I love that, man. It's a perfect perfect place to tap out. Guys, if you haven't already, go get the book. It's called Green Lights. It is phenomenal. I highly recommend the audio version. He is amazing in doing all the different voices and stuff. You guys will love it. Matthew, thank you so much for joining me. And everybody, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. If you always do good work from your standards, whether you're in a project that fails or succeeds, you can live with that. But if you're doing things on other people's criteria or standards and you fail, you feel terrible.