Maria Nicanor talks with Robert Earl Paige, 2026 National Design Awards Winner, Design Visionary

Tonight we are kicking off a brand new series pairing our director Maria Nikonor with the 2026 National Design Award winners. Um we just celebrated the winners on Tuesday with a grand gala event. Um and now we're leading into one-on-one conversations at the museum. Uh spanning design disciplines and the 10 award categories. The talks will offer an inside look at the innovation, practice, and vision behind the work of this year's winners. One of the categories included in the awards is design visionary. Um, it is given in recognition of an individual, firm, or organization who has made a profound contribution to advancing the field. Individuals eligible as nominees for the design visionary category must have been practicing for at least 25 years. Robert, I think you got that. Um, and past award winners include Frank Garry, Robert Wilson, I am pay Gail Anderson, just to name a few. This year, the legendary designer and one of the most positive people I have ever met, Robert Earl Paige, has received the award and we're so thrilled to learn more about his decades of work here tonight. I met Robert uh one year ago. I don't know if any of you attended our trienal uh making home um but Robert was commissioned to intervene with the Carnegie mansion which is not an easy task um but he made an incredible largescale carpet runner up the grand staircase um and drape textiles that hung very high above the staircase uh referencing joy. Joining us from Chicago, Robert is an artist, designer, and educator who work whose work disregards boundaries between fine art, craft, and design. After earning a BFA from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and working for S Soom, Paige transitioned to commercial objects and fashion. In the 1970s, his signature dicabar collection, home furnishings inspired by West African textiles, was sold in over a hundred Sears stores nationwide. It introduced black visual culture into mainstream design. A participant in the black arts movement, Paige champions community engagement in art and culture, a really um important part of our mission here at the museum. and his practice reflects a love of color, commitment to design principles, and a belief in making art accessible for everyday people. He'll be talking with Maria Nikonor, who many of you know. Um, she's our brave and fearless leader here at the museum. She has a background in architecture and design. Uh before joining Cooper Hwitt as its director in 2023, Nikonor was the executive director of Rice Design Alliance, the director of the Norman Foster Foundation in Madrid and a curator of design architecture and digital department of the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. Before Before that, Maria spent most almost a decade as a curator working on exhibitions and architecture initiatives at the Guggenheim, New York, our neighbor here. Um, just a little bit about the format. We're going to kick off with a video and after that um we'll dive into the conversation between the two of you. We'll have some time at the end for questions um from all of you. So, please join us in the conversation and then um we'll head into the great hall. We have a few refreshments afterward. can mingle a little bit. So, thank you so much for being here and enjoy. >> I'm Robert O. Page, a doodler, a dabbler, and a tinkerer. I consider myself a person that's interested in in being a global artist. Anyone that's interested in beauty, I'm designing for them. Color allows for a joy and a beauty that exists when things are not so well. Color is the skin of the world. When people come to an exhibition, they're commented it was beautiful. That is really gives me a chill to think about that. One of my missions is to turn ugliness into beauty. And so when someone pays me that kind of compliment, it's a joy to be recognized for something that you've labored over and enjoyed all your life. It's an extraordinary thing. And I'm just pleased as punched to be Robert O. Paige at this point. >> It is. It really is. All right. Hi everyone. Um, it's great to be here with all of you. It's great to be here with you, Robert. And as Alexandra said, this is the first of a series of conversations where we celebrate our national design winners. I'm so happy that we're starting this one with you. Um, and that we get to launch the series with you. Uh, so we'll get to mark what these talks are. You and I will decide what they are in the future. Um, I, you know, part of the the ethos of these series is to make them very personal and for all of you to get to know the winners and to just gain a different approach um to their work. You have had such an incredible career, Robert, and just looking around the room, I just see friends of yours. The these are friends who know the incredible things you have done. Well, a little louder. Okay. Can you hear me? All right. Yep. >> These are not working as well. I speak I'm Spanish so I speak super fast. I'll slow I'll slow down. >> Spanish it up. >> Spanish it up. I can do that. >> Yeah. There we are. >> There we go. You That's better. So, because many of us know and we'll go into all of that. We'll go I I want to talk about your time as an interior designer. I want to talk about your time at the Art Institute of Chicago. I want to learn more about how you got into the Black Arts Movement. But before we do any of that, there's something that Alexandra said that I've actually been thinking about a lot since I got to meet you, which has to do with uh your positivity and your attitude because every experience and again I think everyone in this room has experienced that. You just told me that you have this moto of like an attitude of gratitude and I want to know where that comes from because that comes from sometimes your upbringing or your parents or not from your parents or from your readings or from your education. Can you tell us more a little bit about the attitude that you bring to your work? Um and that feeling of positivity that all of us just always feel when we're with you. >> Well, um well, I think it came from um growing up in Chicago on the south side. Uh coming from a neighborhood that was uh with loving neighbors. Uh I was two blocks from the park when I was very young. So I would take a tribe of young boys to the park, you know, on Saturday and and we would look for I would look for different sticks that I would make boring arrows out of and we would swim in the swimming pool and I'd ride my bike. And so it was it was a place where imagination, creativity, and invention was always apparent. You know, I made skate scooters coming up. So I think just the idea of joy and the love of life and and looking see I think looking and not seeing. And so at that time I was very curious and I think curiosity has a lot to do with it. To me curiosity is a wellspring of creativity. >> Maybe let's let's talk a little bit about like the beginning of of your career and I know that you you started working as an interior designer but also you jump from mediums very easily, right? You started with home furnishings. You've worked on textiles. You were just telling me that you're moving on to ceramics right now. Um, but tell us a little bit about the beginning of your career when you were working. You were working in a big firm. It was a very big sort of corporate firm, Skidmore, Orins, and Merrill and uh probably you know a very anonymous type kind of job in such a large um in such a large environment. What was it like to to work at that time in that in that place? >> I'm sorry I didn't get that. >> Tell us about when you were working at Skidmore and >> Oh, Skidmore. Ah, yeah. As I said, I'm a southsiderer and at this particular time when I was growing up, we didn't have to go north for anything. And then I got an opportunity to work for Skidmore and Merurl which at that time or still may be one of the largest architecture firms in the country or in the world. And so what it was, it was an invaluable experience because it put me in in in an environment where there was rich with culture, rich with uh relationships and I believe, you know, connection is the key to most things. And so, but when I got there, I was not a student at the art institute. And I kept telling this one architect, Bill Morrison, that I'm going to go to the art institute. So one day he told me just shut up and when you get there then tell me you're in. >> And then you did. >> Yeah. So that so eventually I got in there and uh of course that's why I'm here. But uh Skidmore was as I said an invaluable experience. And when at what at what point did you get more involved with the with the black arts movement um after having had that that experience and of course um as every one knows it was a movement was a sister of sorts to the black power movement um as well and bringing back um African-American and African aesthetics back um into visual culture. So, what was how did you have that first moment of contact of getting more involved with the black arts movement in Chicago? >> Yeah, I'm going to have to I'm having a some trouble with this hearing. There was a, you know, a situation that happened that I think has caused my hearing in this one eye to do some strange things. And so, I probably need a >> I'll I'll go slower. >> Yeah. Uh, neither one. I need, you know, I need a I need an interpreter. >> Yeah. >> Can you >> Oh, no. I'm not going to do that. >> I'll go slower. Don't worry. Is this a little better because it's a little louder? Yeah, I think this is louder. >> If you just Okay, >> just tell us a little bit about Yeah, that's better. >> Thank you, Sheamus. All right. Um, I'm curious about how you got involved with the black arts movement. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Well, then again, you're going to hear me talk a lot about the south side of Chicago because at that time, you know, it was just I mean, you had all these great musicians and organizations and I mean, it was just kind of people don't want me to say it this way, but it was kind of like a a great Gatsby. I mean, you know, we had beautiful men, beautiful women. I was driving around in a 1936 Bentley in college. you know that that does not talk about the black house moving but it was part of you know all the kind of vehicle that all of us had but the camaraderie and the love for one another the eye that you know we were in invested in the community but see the black arts movement I don't think has really been talked about in detailed enough you know uh when we were coming up as I said there were photographers and painters and writers and all of us had different workshops. That's how the our wall of rep re respect came into into being. But um it was kind of like the role the role of the artist in the revitalization of a community, you know, artists and non artists alike in the creation of a a community aesthetics. But and central to that idea was this idea that art was functional, right? Um which is something that you you have worked around a lot. So this this idea that art is meant to bring social change as well, which is something that you have continued to practice, right? It's uh art is meant to educate. It's meant to which sounds like something so standard uh now, but like what what do you think about that? uh how did that affect the way that you worked? the idea that of functionality, >> you know, the uh the award that I received from Cooper Hewitt that talked about the uh design visionary and the thing that's kind of been on my mind for a while besides the isms of things is I think I may have mentioned the idea that I don't see or haven't been hearing the word beauty used a lot. You know, you can go through a architectural magazine or a lot of things and you never hear it. And I like to hang my hat on on that. You know, one of the things that I'm going to pursue as soon as I get a little time is is kind of bring back to this idea or this barrier between fine arts and decorative arts. You know, I think I may have mentioned, you know, I mean, the idea that that you could consider ornamentation a crime, you know, I mean, you look at this beautiful building and you see the the lovely details where the the benefit last night, you know, for the for the awards, you know, was in a in a museum that's just I mean, it's yummy, you know. Then you get into a situation where you've got a in piece Manderro is from my hometown of course and between him and and other artists architects they start stripping any kind of ornamentation off of anything >> they kind of killed the whole thing didn't they >> yeah I mean and I didn't even know the term you would know being an archaism you know what the hell is that all about you know but it's you know it's the it's the curtain wall and the Okay, I hope that answered that question. >> And you work you work a lot with color as well and that you want to bring beauty back and I know that geometric forms and color are very important to you um as well. Do you think we should bring back ornamentation and that would help to bring beauty back? I know that's something you talk a lot about. You see when the art institute at the time I was there, you know, it was right after one of the wars and there were a lot of exis there. They on the bill of rights and one of the great instructor that I had was Mara. Well, there were two Mara Ill Lillian had came to the states as a a scholarship from Frank Lord Wright, but the other one was uh Grace Earl and to be able to come into her class, she was the one who inspired me to get into flat pattern or textile designs, but to come into her class, she had a bulletin board with articles from G National Geographics of Vogue magazines and would run around and talk about twiggy limmy things and buggy spider things. You know, how can you not just beested with that? >> And was that before or after you went to to Dakar when you spent some time in Africa? >> You spent some time in Africa. >> Yeah, that was during the Dhaka collection, the collection that I did for Sears. And that was more less an idea or to see what I was was there really any validity in in the things that I was putting on paper. And to get there and to see, you know, brothers walking down the road with these beautiful turquoise robes on and these little kofies on and even the white sandals and their legs put me in the mind of stripes. So everything has always been for me a way how it relates to things that I'm thinking about or I'm doing. >> And tell us a little bit then about that time that you spent there and how the deck of our collection came about. Um and like how all of that felt because it was for those of you who maybe don't know it like it's the Alexander was referencing it as well. Um, it was a series that, uh, Robert worked on and it was, uh, sold at Sears at the time, which meant that it reached and the African textiles and an African aesthetic went into the home and the homes and and changed the the the visual culture of what what was going into American homes and what the American shopper had availability to to purchase. Right. So um tell us about that whole process and how it came to be with with Sears and and uh working once you were back from your trips. >> Yeah, there was a uh Leonard Evans uh was a grand man who had this idea of a Tuesday magazine. Tuesday magazine was a supplement in the in a number of the papers. One in particular in Chicago was the Sunday Times. But one of the supplements that he started was Tuesday at home. And the idea behind that was that freedom of choice at the marketplace. And the idea was, you know, African-Americans look at Life magazine, Vogue magazine, and all those. So he wanted to reverse that. And the idea was freedom of choice at the marketplace. And so that was all tied up with the idea of going to Africa because at that particular time we went with a a fashion designer Arthur McGee was his name. And so between him doing his research and me being along for the ride, we both came back with a wonderful story that was in one of the publications. And I mean a part part of many of these experiences also which had to do with um with uh advocating for social change through art. I know that you started an organization uh that was called Everyday Art. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? I think it was with Carol Adams and uh >> yeah that that that ties into what I was saying about the the role of the artist and the creative of a creating of a community aesthetics. We had um moved to the south side of Chicago and Dr. Carol Adams and I, she received a um application for a grant and so we were the first to have a ah Henry's Threadgills. Yeah. See, when I talk about Chicago and talk about the different organizations, Henry Threadgill was part of a wonderful organization of musicians who transplanted now lives in New York City. But yeah, back to the everyday art. And so we, as I said, we were the first to have a federal festival on the south side of Chicago. But it was all about kind of a connection between how to bring the community into the understanding how beautiful we are, how beautiful the community community can could be in that the need for an aesthetic. And there's a lot of I think there's a lot of similarities or you might find differences as well around this idea of gathering and how important it was to gather people together, right? Which is something that we have struggled with maybe in the last few years, socializing more people people getting together more. Um, can you hear me? All right. No. Yep. So I I was hoping that we could talk a little bit about how how you see things changing from the times that you are talking about. I know that it was important to you to have a lot of socializing and gathering, a lot of mixing of different disciplines of artist. We've lost some of that, don't you think? Or have we not? >> I don't know if I got that question. Are are we losing our our ability to be more multid-disciplinary and to collaborate more with each other? >> That's all right. >> God, I can't even that is cringe really. You know, when I think about that particular period on the south side again and you know, we had bookstores, we had tea shops, we had galleries, we had, you know, I mean, like when I mentioned Henry Thegill and the ACM, I mean, they would have concerts every every month at scattered sites, you know, and it was a place that you look forward to coming and meeting everyone, you know. They had vendors that was selling t-shirts and books and things. It was just a just just a hell of a great opportunity to be with likeminded minds. >> Where where do you go look for that today? Where do you find that community today? >> Oh, see that's the problem, >> right? So that's what I want to talk about. See, I'm I'm I'm in the process of what I'm calling a cultural resurrection because I find the things that were so important to us as we were growing up and I see the things that the kids don't have now. I've been working on some woodprints at the Art Institute of Chicago and I spend quite a bit of time and as I'm meandering around and looking at the kids work and things and I think about when I was coming up, you know, there was a great book that Helen Gardner had the the history of art and in it it had, you know, the elements of design. I don't see that any other work. So I'm very interested in the elements of design, the principles of design and and the reass reassurgence of those kinds of elements because um see what they have done to us, you know, not when I say AfricanAmerican artists or women artists, they've uh put what they say on us uh getting your do. I don't know what that means because if we were not doing what we're supposed to do, we wouldn't have achieved what we've achieved. So, I'm interested in we used to be the meal of the meal at one point. Now, they reduced us to the afterdinner mint. We're like the little talk chocolate on the pillow in a boutique hotel. And I'm sick and tired of that Whoops. So, what are you going to do about it? >> Well, you know, like I said, the uh the organization that I'm interested in forming, but it actually formed when I had the exhibition, which that catalog showed the the United Colors of Robert Page, and it's called the Paraple, and Paraple in French's umbrella. So I've organized a group of artists that will come up under that umbrella, spend time at my Italier or maybe three days a week and work on different whether it's fabrics, printing, furniture, prints or whatever. You see, one of the things that I'm finding with artists that I'm gonna take myself out of this because I think about money that they're doing a lot of work, but they're not talking about money. And I don't I'm not talking about money, money, but you need money to do more art. And so that's one of the things on my agenda to do because during the first of the year I said this is the year this is the millionaire year for artisans. And so that's what I've been spreading around and I and I write it every morning. You know I have a visual diary. And so when I write stuff I put the day the time and then I put year of the artist the artisan. And is this you were telling me earlier that you're thinking of creating of getting an apartment that has a storefront. Do so you're still thinking of organizing people and of getting people together. Um is this do you think that's what you want to do in this space? It sounds like that's your the next project that you're dreaming about that you're imagining. Uh I don't know where you find the energy to do it, but you're thinking of the next thing which is the storefront. So what what do you think that will be? >> Yes. See, dreams are incredible things. You know, we're we're magicians. You know, we take raw things and turn them into beautiful things. And I've always wanted a storefront with an apartment on the top so that I can go downstairs and start working. But in dreams, like most things, you know, you have to be careful of what you think. And so that's on my mind and there's one that's available to me and I'm saying at this point do I want to put my energy in that or do I want to do what? But uh my gut is telling me to stick to your dreams no matter what. So next time we get together I'll be in that bad boy working my off. Yeah, >> I think that might be a good place to open it up for some questions because you're ending up in a very uh in a spirit of doing things together and collaborating together, which I think is a a good way of thinking about it. And of >> another thing I'm find, you know, there's a lot of questions, but there's not a lot of answers for stuff. >> Let's let's try with some of the questions here. >> I have some answers for some stuff. Um, so we'll open it up a little bit if and we'll help with amplifying any of the questions that you that you have if that's helpful. >> Oh, don't be afraid. I won't bite you. >> Uhhuh. I have a question thinking about I mean I'm of a certain age and I have the same kind of feelings you have in terms of about what our life experience had been and trying to see it in another generation but I have no idea when you start talking about how you socialize and how the different groups cross-pollinated. I don't know how young people do that today. Where do they do it? I'm in Harlem and I don't know where to tell another young person to go dance to see art. Maybe there's two one or two places. The sense of community isn't evident. And so even if I wanted to sort of engage that group, how would we connect with it? I mean, have you found an ability to connect with younger people in Chicago? Are there programs and things that allow you to engage more? >> Okay. I'm sorry. He's ask he's asking how you connect with young people. Where do you find young people these days? Young people. How do you connect with younger people and how do they socialize even? >> Oh, that's my group. you know, from what I call big shorties to to the older ones. You know, like I said, I'm a my desire to is inspire. And so half of the idea of having a facility or a place where they can come and be because when I was at the art institute, you know, we didn't have a place for the shortage. Like in the exhibition that that was showed at the High Park Art Center, I took a page from uh Jack Whitten's uh woodshed. So I had a a room where young see when you have an opening some parents will bring their shorties and they will have their glass of wine and they will see their friends and they will go and start chatting and the kids in a wasteland. So, this room was set up so they could come in and doodle because that's one of my principles. I'm a doodler, dabbler, and a tinkerer. And they would come and they would doodle away. And a result of that, the University of Chicago had me come over to the lab school to have kids work on things that inspire them for my exhibition. But I'm connected. I will always be connected to the shorties because if you don't get them here, it's hard to get them up there. A lot of problems when you know when you don't get them early. My question was very similar to his. Can you hear me? >> No. >> Oh, it died. Okay. It does. Oh, you can hear me now. Yes. >> I'm sorry. Okay. So, when you're speaking of the shorties, I'm trying to visualize the apartment above the space where you're going to bring people and are those your friends or your gatherings from the southside? Are you is that the intention? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. to get back to the period when the bam or black arts movement was flourishing. There was always a place that you could go and be a gathering of like-minded people talking about whatever they're talking about, you know. So, that would be a place. And then for me in Chicago, there's a lot happening on the north side and not a lot happening on the south side. And that's the void that I'm attempting to fill. Uh a gathering of like-minded people being about the business of art. You're creating the spaces if you don't find them. Yeah. We have a couple more. >> Hello. How are you? >> Come on up here. >> Yeah, sure. Let's do it. >> What's up? Hey, brother. How are you? >> My friend Dario. >> So, you mentioned with the black arts movement um that there was a need for an aesthetic, a a need for an aesthetic in creating the black arts movement. In that period, what did you discover? Right? Like as you all are working across textile, across painting, you're beginning to gather a type of aesthetic. What are the maybe tenets or categories or maybe even visual language, shared visual language that you discovered in creating the Black Arts Movement? What did I discover that everything's connected? that we have a shared interest in being together and and exploring design and music and relationships and appreciation that we're still on the planet was one of the things that comes to mind now. I don't know if that answers your question, but the atmosphere was open and ready for exploring your yourself, you see, and in anything else that you were about. >> Yeah. Because when because when I think of movements like say the bow house, >> you know, the bow house also was a group of individuals working across multiple industries and multiple disciplines. Um that was both education and production. And out of the bow house came a series of design tenants vocabulary >> came out of the bow house. >> Exactly. that really still influence the world today. And so I'm super curious about with the black arts movement, was there a similar type of uh shared aesthetic or series of codes that were developed as you all gathered? >> I can't speak specifically about anyone other than myself. So the way that when you talk about the B house and I mentioned Black Mountain, you know, whether it was Vienn Vienna's succession group or or or distilled or any of those movement the way I look at art from my perspective, it's like a color palette and all these movements are there. So what I'm inclined to do is to see that how see how I can apply what I do to any of those movements. I'm presently in in involved in in looking at how different movements okay like a for instance if you think about a wobby shabby you know beauty of things imperfect impermanent and incomplete how can I use that principle to keep me from thinking about making mistakes you see because if you a a creative person, you have to be in what I call a a state of play. When you're in a state of play, then you're not making any mistakes. Because if you're thinking about make mistakes, then you can't be creative. In play, then you in a state where you say there's great possibilities if I try this or I try this. See, creativity has no rules. It just has boundless opportunities. And so that is the way that I'm approaching it from my standpoint. Now others may have all kinds of things. I think Henry Thread has got his hand up and he's a musician, you know, uh, from that period. So I think he may have something to add. Did that answer your question? >> Yes, sir. >> Asking about the vows. just something similar in terms of the arts movement in Chicago. No, it was not because the bowels was a school. It was one of singular aesthetic concept about art in the organizations in Chicago and the among the artist groups, the poet groups and the music groups. We weren't everyone in the organization was a school in themselves. So what Paige was doing was not what another designer would be doing. They might be under a a particular umbrella like in the ACM we was under one umbrella but there was no such thing as the ACM school. There were everybody was a school in a university themselves and that was the same among the poets in Chicago. The same among the the people that worked in visual arts. Okay. Alison, did you have a question? >> Hi, Robert. Um, I know part of this question, but I think it might be fun for the audience. Um, you are so, um, engaged and inspired by collections. Um, we've had some great conversations about the artworks that mean a lot to you and I was just curious if you could talk a little bit about collections like this one or at the art institute that have been a really important part of your creative process looking to the past to inspire you to go forward. >> Um, she she's asking about collections and >> collection >> collection. >> Yes. So the collection here at Cooper Hwitt and the collection in Chicago of Chicago. >> This collection >> the art that inspires you. >> Oh gosh. I have been inspired by uh the work at the art institute in particular. Uh there was a a woman Sonia Delane and Sel Sonia Delan had an exhibition at the art institute at a point when I was working at Skidmore and the art institute was free all day. Now it's only free from 5 to 8. So anyway, I would go every day. I would sit with my um sketchbook and I would draw her designs and I was fortunate enough to see the great exhibition that you had here of Sonia Delane at the same time they had Steve McQueen down the street, you know. So, um museums and collections and exhibitions is is is my bread and butter. You know, if you you know, you go, it's like being in your Italier. It's a sanctuary. It's a place you can be. You feel comfortable in it. I remember I was at the Art Institute on one of those Thursdays when it was open until 8:00 and the bell went off and there was a g a European gentleman next to me and he said, "Closing there's no better place to be." And that's the way I feel about the museums, you know, and I'm constantly looking for ways to go and to be there. I guess that's what I loved about New York when I lived here and still that is it was a feast for the eyes. It was always something to see, some places to go. Not that Chicago, but Chicago. I was just thinking about this morning. You know, you know they say Chicago second city. I don't want to. But maybe don't let anybody from don't take that back home. But maybe you know. Yeah. >> Did you? >> Yeah. >> Um >> I think Little Wing has a question. >> Yeah. Well, stand by come up and get get my good ear. >> Hi, nice to see you again. I have so many questions, but I want to I only get one, but um I wanted to hear more about your process and um I guess your medium in looking at some of the images, we see paintings or drawings and I think someone mentioned you're now moving on to ceramics. So just curious about your process in designing um your pieces. >> You know that I was telling students uh you have to be this this whole thing of language you know uh I didn't know anything about practice. Somebody said, "What's your practice?" I what the hell you talking about my practice? Because my practice is my practice and I practice every day. But I've never seen a piece of paper that I didn't fall in love with. As I said, I'm a a doula, dabbler, and and and a tinkerer. And so most of the things that I do and how I start is just unconsciously dueling. You know, I have a a mind that's AC accustomed to a certain motif that I can just start working with. But as long as my unconscious mind is working, then I'm fine. But once my subconscious mind clicks into the conscious, I've lost the create I've lost the creativity in what I'm doing personally. But I like to just do you just do what you do. Are you in the arts? >> Yeah. So, what do you like to do? >> Like you, I like to do it all. I like to Yeah. paint, draw, think about space, think about products, think about fabrics. So, it's everything. >> Yeah. See what happened to me during the time I was at Skidmore. I was I had learned how through grace. She turned me on to batique, you know, writing with wax. So from that I ca I came came out thinking that I was a textile designer. You know, I printed two, six pieces of fabric and shipped them to the Museum of Contemporary Craft before it became the Museum of of Art and Design. And then I said, I'm a textile designer. But the problem with that later on was that when they talk about you focusing, it's all right to focus, but I think in some cases you need to scan because the same ability that you put into whether it's painting or ceramics can be applied to all of it. So don't get trapped in that. You know, it's kind of like they talk about passion. I said passion is that little thing that's up on the heel with a little light and sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not. But curiosity comes tap you on the should and say what about that or what about that? And then you can go from there. But don't get do what you do. Yeah. Yeah. >> Thank you so so much. >> Thank you. I was going to say that this museum isn't closing anytime soon. We can grab a drink in the great hall. Um and I'm going to stay with what you said that I'm going to just claim that museums are the space to gather and where we should get together. I'm going to leave you with um something that has to do with um sustainability and longevity and there are cardinal rules and I picked this up from one of your New York drama awardees u Andre Dield and he talks about the cardinal rules is Carla rules one is surround yourself with people whose eyes light up when they see you coming slowly is the best way to get where you want to go go because pat patience is a talent and the third is the top of one mountain and the bottom of the next so Keep climbing, but do what you do. >> Thank you, Robert.