Managing Digital Collections: A Systems Perspective (CMS, DAMS, DPS and TDR) | NDF Online Sessions

No my hide my welcome everyone to our NDF online session managing digital collections systems perspective with our wonderful presenter Kirsty Cox who is manager digital and collections information systems atapa Naomi or Liverpool or NDF. My name is Naomi Matroid. I am an NDF board member and I'm also the public programs lead for FIA Experience Wellington um just down the road from Kirsty. Before we hand over um a couple of housekeeping notes to keep the session running smoothly, we ask that you keep yourself muted um and keep your cameras off so the focus is on the speaker. Um, also feel free to enjoy your lunch while you're while you're listening. Um, the session will be recorded, so you'll have a chance to review it. Um, we'll share a link to the recording and links to any resources mentioned um, in an email sometime in the next few days. Um, please utilize the chat function. Your questions and comments are super welcome. Um, ask questions anytime throughout and then we'll have some time at the end to address those questions. Kirsty's also said um she is happy to hand out her email if we get heaps of questions so she can um answer them directly. Um a huge thank you to Kirsty for joining us as our presenter. We're so excited to have you. Um Kirsty is currently the manager of digital and collections information systems at TEAPA. So she manages the team that looks after their collections management system emu and digital asset management system net x. Previously she worked at the Alexander Turbo Library working primarily with unpublished digital materials and with their digital preservation system Rosetta. Uh that is more than enough from me. So I will happily hand over to Kirsty now. manager digital and collections information systems. Thank you Naomi and NDF um for inviting me to talk to you today. This is um as mentioned in the um advertisements for this particular session. This is a b back to basics um presentation looking at the systems we use to manage our collection digital collections. What is a CMS? What's a dams? What's a DPS? And how do we acquire TDR? What are these? What do these terms even mean? I'll explore this through the lens of the papers um digital preservation maturity journey. So first and foremost a collections management system or CMS essentially is designed um to look after the collections that we all hold within our institutions. It's a backbone of any collecting institution and their origins are in cataloging and registration. Consequently, most of the systems these systems manage information of from a curatorial or a collections management perspective and is usually compliant with appropriate cataloging standards. Vernon of course is the most popular collection management system used by museums and galleries in New Zealand and it's a New Zealandbased system. specify um is a natural history specific collection management system and it's used by many of the New Zealand crown institution research institutions such as NEA to manage their extensive specimen collections and ENU which of course is a system we use here at Papa. These are just some of the very many collection management systems that are out there on the market. Um, EMU is a global collection management system that's actually used by many of the very large museums and galleries in Australia, Europe and North America. In New Zealand, it's a very small user base of ourselves. Um, Alexander Timber Library where I firmly worked and was an administrator for ENU Hokata Museum recently and the worst kept secret wing nut films. Oh, sorry. I should emphasize too, of course, um that these systems were primarily and traditionally developed to manage our physical collections. Um so, in many cases, we've needed to acquire over the years a digital asset management system or dams. These um systems were developed in the 1990s um primarily in the creative industry such as media, publishing and print companies and almost every sector and or you know almost every large organization should I say sorry will have a DAM solution as part of their IT infrastructure. Glams have been creating and we have been creating for a number of years a large amount of digital assets in association with our exhibitions, our field trips, expeditions, marketing and functions. We also create a large amount of digital surrogates and acquire digital assets as part of our collections. And then again just demonstrate these are just one these are just several of the many many digital asset management systems that are out on the market. Um the one that we use is net x. So what does dams look like or what does the digital asset management system really look like for us here at tapa? It's actually spread across two systems. Um our nonpolction related material um is stored within net x or what we call media library. We acquired that in 2016. Yet within EMU, our collection management system, we've had this since 2005, 20 years earlier this year. And that has been storing all of our digital assets, even our non-collection media assets before we acquired media library. So our non-collections related media assets when it was initially acquired it was configured as a minimal viable product. This is not to be confused with most valuable player. Our net or media library was acquired basically to have the real basic just enough features to make it usable. Previously, like I was mentioning before, all our digital assets were either stored in emu or in random staff hard drives or personal servers. There was no centralized space in which to find our media assets. It was never configured to handle collection related media assets. So therefore, there is no integration with ENU. There's only manual cross referencing and currently we have no budget allocation to change this. The fact that this dams is also a cloud-based software as a service means that there is no digital uh data sovereignty and there is no data center based in New Zealand. NetX support is based in United States on the east coast. So our window for support is very limited from a New Zealand time perspective. Also by the very nature of the digital assets that are stored in our media library. All the digital assets stored within this fall under the P the public records act. Recently recently our disposal authority was signed off by the chief archavist. So essentially everything stored in here is not of longterm archival use or purpose. On the other hand, our collections related dams also known as our collection management system or ENU has been highly configured to handle our digital assets. This configuration was developed back when we first acquired ENU in 2005. Consequently, this is far um predates a lot of the um um digital assets that were on market that were suitable for glams also before the creation of any kind of digital asset management system uh digital sorry preservation system. Consequently, this data structure is incredibly complex. Um it's also highly um convoluted process for staff. So essentially it has meant a high error within our data um and has made a hu it's made it really difficult from a human er um from a human error point of view is very very high and oopsie I've just gone to the next slide by accident. Consequently, essentially at the end of the day, this system is no longer fit for purpose. Um, our on-site storage is in three like three repositories. Um, we have backups to the cloud and to LTO tapes. Um but essentially at the end of the day the disc space is means it's more of a dams than it is an is a collection management system. Essentially we really need at the end of the day a system that appropriately manages our collection all our digital assets. This is this icon. I got it developed by um AI for me. Essentially throws a very overburdened emu. This graph and thanks to my colleague and my team who um pulled the data out of ENU to demonstrate this um essentially shows the growth of digital assets that are being managed and inserted into ENU. You can see a really large jump. Um that was a consequence of a project called the accelerated digitization um accelerated collections digitization project. Sorry, a bit of a mouthful. And since then the growth has the growth of our digital assets has been steadily increasing and has put an enormous pressure on our on our EU and our storage and backups. We also have developed really highly customized workflows to support bulk imports into our systems and in and assist with our very complex publishing process. Currently, we have over a million records published to our collections online and we average over 2,000 newly published records per month. I should also emphasize the current version we're operating in EMU is version 6.5 and if you know anything about EMU the back end of the database essentially is only 32 comp 32 bit compliant which essentially means for any of our digital files over 2 gig partition of those files happen ultimately this means many of our digital collections especially our AV collections have not been able to be loaded into ENU So this G graph actually genuinely doesn't show all our digital assets that we have and that we need to manage across all our collections. We're currently in the process of upgrading our version of EMU to the latest version which is 64bit compliant. However, we really do need a system that manages this most effectively and supports our aspirations for digital sovereignty. We really need these systems to be integrated as well in order to streamline our work processes and take away a lot of the manual processes we have to deal with especially with the amount of records we have to publish per month. So essentially a digital preservation system or DPS is designed to ensure and look after our digital assets in the long term regardless of their file format. As mentioned in the introduction, I um Rosetta I worked with previously. I was a super user for the unpublished collections at Turnville Library during the National Digital Heritage Archive or NDHA project which implemented Rosetta in 2008. This was co co-designed by Exal Libus with the collaboration of the National Library of New Zealand and at the time it was basically the only digital preservation system on the market. Since then there's been a number of different offerings including preservica um which is another leading product which actually has been used by the national archives in the UK but also archive matica which is open source digital preservation solution. Sorry. First published in 1997, believe it or not, this OS standard um since 2005 has been the bedrock for long-term preservation of digital materials and objects. And it's a fundamental document that has guided preservation, digital preservation since. So if you don't know about it already, the OIS model is you basically is the underlying system that informs all our digital preservation systems. It provides a lot of the common languages um language and terms sorry around when we're talking about digital preservation. In particular, you might see that SIP. SIP stands for submission information package at or archival information package and the delivery information package at the end there to the consumer. Another one is this um the DCC um the curation life cycle model. This expands on the idea of digital preservation requires actions throughout the life cycle of your digital objects to sustain long-term access to them. Just want to highlight that in the center in the core there core of the um cycle uh of this um life cycle model is the data the digital objects and databases. This is quite outdated I would acknowledge but it does miss some of the additional preservation actions in this. If you look closely enough the only preservation action that they have within this model is migration and I'll talk a bit a bit more about that later on. So what is the best combo Simon say game of systems? Ideally we would have all three and in fact many of the well-endowed glams internationally do have an infrastructure with which encompasses all three that is all integrated. Reality is many glams especially with the current economic climate can only maintain at minimum one or maybe more. That is why oh or or just like dams like we have. Sorry. That is why many of the collection management systems Oh gosh, I've done it again. Sorry. Um collection management systems have dams functionality built into it like ours, like our ENU. Um why many of the dams that you might see being offered at the moment currently talk about having digital preservation functionality. I question some of that when you try to get to the nitty-gritty of it, but they do promise it. And additionally, some of the DPS systems also have tried to build in some of the DAM's functionality and making it more usable and more accessible in order to download or share your digital assets that are stored within your DPS. Not all systems support easy integrations between each other. For instance, there's no integration between our emu and net x. There's only cross referencing and we have done some small coding with an emu which can give users the illusion of an integrated system. NetX did announce in May 2024 that support for integration with ENU and other collection management systems is on the horizon, but we haven't seen any fruits of that yet. Technology constantly changes and your current CMS dams or DPS may no longer be fit for purpose for your organization. So you need to be constantly looking on the horizon for what is your next best solution. To enable this, you need to ensure that your data is migration ready as much as possible. And when I mean migration ready, that is essentially making sure your data is consistent as possible and you're documenting as well as possible any decisions or changes you've made to your system. In particular, customizations like we have done within our ENU. But systems are only part of the picture. TDR or the trusted digital repository. This is a concept that was first discussed in a report by the research libraries group RLG and the online computer library center OLC. Since 2012, this has become an ISO standard and known as the trusted digital repository checklist. I'm finding recently a lot of colleagues in the glam sector are starting to use DPS and TDR, oopsie, be pardon, I keep on doing that. Um, TDR interchangeably when in reality a DPS is part of a TDR and a TDR is more than just a system. It's about compliance with preservation standards like that OIS model that I mentioned previously. It's about organizational viability, financial stability of your organization in order to maintain those systems in the long term. Technical procedural suitability, system security. Do you have those backups? Do you have your business continuity plans in place? Procedural accountability if something doesn't work. Achieving a TDR is aspirational for many glams. It's the gold standard for digital preservation. So what are we doing instead? So we have been on a journey around digital preservation maturity for a wee while. And one of the tools we've used to help us understand because it's such a big problem and it can be incredibly overwhelming is using this incredibly useful tool that has been put out by the digital preservation coalition called the rapid assessment model, the DPC RAM. We've been benchmarking and using this model since 2020 and it's really helped inform where we need to focus our attentions on and where we're doing really good, where we're not doing so good and really helping communicate what that is to upper management about that. So, I'd highly recommend if you haven't done so already, start benchmarking with the DPC RAM. We've also done some really small steps hardware. When I first started working at Tapa, we didn't have a right blocker. And that's what the right block is beside there. That's our blue forensic um piece of hardware. This was really important to make sure when we were transferring files, we weren't by mistake altering them when we were doing so. We now have a h standalone digital preservation commu computer to assist with processing really large digital acquisitions. We were previously I was trying to do this on my small laptop which essentially it was breaking under the pressure of me running some of the processes required when I was looking at some of these digital collections. We've included within a lot of the job descriptions and previous to me starting a lot of this was not unbelievably not mentioned in in many job descriptions but the inclusion of physical and digital well-being of our collections. It was always assumed um that you know there was always that emphasis on the physical and the digital was ignored in many cases especially in our storage considerations. Just cuz it's digital storage doesn't mean it's f infinite and not expensive or equally as expensive as the infrastructure and sometimes around our our storage physical storage needs. Also technical appraisal workflows are now embedded in all our acquisitions conservation and loans for anything in relation to digital assets within our collections. We've also improved scripts such as our bulk image importing and now we're recording check sums of all our digital assets as they're saved into ENU. When I first the first month of me working at the Papa at Papa discovered over quarter million of our digital assets had nullled check sum data. And just to emphasize, check sum. Recording the check sums of your digital assets is incredibly important for the integrity and knowing nothing's been altered or lost with that digital file. Without them, we can't guarantee that the files are genuine or errorree, and they're essential for us when we're trying to look at any future migrations of our digital assets into other systems. One of the biggest workflow improvements we've done is around our timebased media artworks or TBMA. This was a focused project in which we looked at clearly ascertaining what the process was, who was responsible for that process and what systems they were interacting with that process. Also, another really important and useful piece of kit that um digital preservation coalition has put out is one called the CAT, the competency audit toolkit. This looks at your individual current skill levels, gaps within your job descriptions um and the divide between that and the actual actual tasks that they need to do on a daily basis as well as the skills level required to maintain a level of digital preservation capabilities that you want to have in your organization. So a real life example of that is within my team. So this is my team as it stands at the moment and one key integration addition to my team in the last in the last two years has been the digital asset systems manager. Previously, this role was own was outside of this team and previously was only focused exclusively on the media library or the um net X. And as you probably can gather from those previous slides where I mentioned that ENU was used previously for a deposit of most of those this was quite unequitable in that most of the digital assets were actually stored in ENU and most of the digital assets that we really need to look at how we how we manage them and look after them was actually out sitting outside of our system. So it was incredibly important to have a consolidated role that looked at this s like upper wide. We use also a large variety of tools outside of ENU and net X to analyze and understand our collections. We are also early adopters within Papa using AI to assist with our MA mahi wherever appropriate. And if you listen to Courtney and Adrian's presentation more recently with the NDF sessions, they would have possibly touched on this a fair bit. So, also another really important resource is your local digital preservation community. in particular at in Wellington there's an incredibly strong community um going right back to the old NDHA um project team days but essentially this community has had incredibly massive contributions to international digital preservation standards over the years and I'll just mention like met some premise we've been incredibly active we are very um open and transparent community and sharing our frustrations, our joys um and particularly every year we have tried to hear the results of our DPC RAM assessments. So that's Wellington community there. Unfortunately, I wasn't present that day, but my colleague um Cat Whitney, who is our digital asset systems manager, is present, and she's the one in the white coat. Also, there's an incredibly strong and growing Australasian pres digital preservation community in particular with a um is a list serve or comes through as a Google group is the Australasian preserves. And a lot of people can ask questions or advertise or talk about what they're working on or any kind of new documentation or policy um that they're working on or training opportunities. Another one is the dams and glams. This is very informal. Um this is essentially a lot of the larger museums and galleries in Australasia Tapa included but it's mainly looked after by the museums Victoria we meet up very occasionally and we'll share again um our joys our our some of our failures but yeah and another one is um we have recently become an observer participant in the emulation as a service infrastructure project. Um we're in phase two of this project. Um and in currently like a lot of glam institutions, we only use migration as a preservation strategy. So this is incredibly important especially in relation to our timebased media artwork collection which has a lot of g some of them gaming element software and is in obsolete formats. Being an observer for this project has provided us a unique opportunity to learn from other glam institutions like Acme and Galleria New South Wales on how how they are investigating and using emulation as a type of digital preservation strategy and that's what I was talking about before within that life cycle strategies on that life cycle only mention migration. So, we're looking at other strategies going forward. And another big one, there's a huge global digital preservation community. And in fact, um, it's coming to Wellington this year. It's very exciting. It's first time that it's ever come to New Zealand. I believe it's the second time ever to the Southern Hemisphere. Um, so I would highly encourage if you haven't done so already to look at the program, get engaged with it because it'll be amazing to learn even by osmosis, even if it's well above your head. Um, some of the sessions are very informal. Um, I'm on a couple of the um, subcommittees for it and I highly encourage you to engage in it or have a look at the options. There's workshops, there's all sort things on there, but also have a look at the amazing resources like the DPC. I'm a bit of a fan girl of them, but they have amazing resources on their website like the two um ones I mentioned, the RAM and the CAT. Um, but it really helps inform your policies and understanding what you want if you are going out on market to look at a digital preservation system, how to help you navigate that space. But yeah, that's it from me and I'll hand it back over to Naomi. Thank you so much, Kirsty. That was awesome. Um, I I really enjoyed how you included just some very practical, simple, actionable things. I think sometimes this kind of mahi can be um like really overwhelming or seem a little bit um insurmountable. So I think that's just super helpful especially because we know we get um to our sessions we have a lot of really small institutions who you know this can seem um seem quite scary. Um and I also I have to say I loved the photo of you all by the Wellington sign especially considering how atrocious the weather has just turned here in Wellington. Um but it you're totally right. It is so important to lean on your community, to lean on your peers and your colleagues and talk to each other and support each other. So, I think we're we're all guilty of it, right, of just kind of being in our little cocoon and our little focus bubble of forgetting that there are other people just down the road who you could have a chat to. Um, it's time for people to post questions. Um, but just in case anybody's shy, of course, like a good chair, I have prepared one earlier. Um, so you spoke a little bit about people having um and it did make me smile and probably everybody else assets in uh on random desktops and hard drives and like I think we can all we've all been there. Um I wondered how you might have brought people along the journey in terms of convincing them to um use the correct systems, do things properly. um especially people who um may not work in the collection space. This might be really new to them. Um they've been doing things the same way for 30 years. Um so just a little bit of that kind of um yeah, your perspective on how to to get people to take this mahi seriously and bring them along with any change that might be coming their way. >> That's a really that's a big question. Um but um there's a couple of things in there. One of the key things again that's going back to the DPC looking at some of their resources around this but essentially creating what we call I didn't mention it but we created quite early on a digital asset register. So just getting an idea of what's potentially out there where they are who holds them what's on them. Um how old are they? What is their context? Why are they there? you know, all sorts of little things like that really helps you kind of understand just really at the basic level what you've got going on. previous organi um where I previously worked at Turbo. I was um at one point the inaugural the the the original only digital pre uh person working in processing digital collections along my colleagues in ATL which were the digital archavists and I was basically working on the extensive backlog of digital materials that was building up and in those curatorial areas. it became such that they realized they needed two additional MI. So they created two additional people to do the same mahi that I was doing. Um cuz it literally was years and years and years worth of backlog. Um and we had amnesties around that too which was really interesting. So a lot of things came through the woodwork. Um a lot of things also hidden in your collections that you might not discover just incidentally. you go through a file and then there's a pen drive in there, you know. Um but I think um yeah, developing some processes, some policies, kind of getting understanding what you're capable of doing within your organization or not, being realistic around that, setting expectations and not being too hard on yourself. Um but yeah, there's a lot to unpack in that, but yeah, so much I could provide. a pen drive in a file horror story like I do. >> Oh, floppy discs. A flo 8 in floppy disc, you know. >> Yeah. Oh, man. Yep. Been there. Um, so we've got a question. I'll um it's in the chat, but I'll um say it out loud as well, so it goes onto the recording. Um this is from Dave Sanderson. How do you differentiate your work from attempts in corporate land to get everyone's data into SharePoint, especially when it's often also trying to meet recordkeeping slash data management goals? That's interesting you say that because as I was saying, I didn't call it out specifically, but that digital asset systems um it was a digital asset system manager was sitting in a knowledge what was called knowledge and information um group or team and they were looking after our public records as well as our own archives because a lot of people don't realize we actually do not transfer archives to archives New Zealand. we look after our own way back to 1865. Um, so that's a really interesting one. Um, with the SharePoint, I know my colleague who's the head of that team still very much struggles with it right now with people saving things randomly. We don't know what we don't know. Um, yeah. And people will, let's be honest, at the end of the day, people are always saving things in the wrong place regardless of best intentions sometimes. Um, if they're going to find a way to do something, they're going to do it. Or else, just to be sure, I'm going to put it in all three. I'm going to put it in email. I'm going to put in a media library and I'm going to put it into a record management system and onto my port and into you know it can be a huge problem. We're trying to tackle that from a large IT perspective. So, our chief of chief of um the C yeah the chief of the information team and I always forget his actual title but um Craig Leain who you would have seen present at the NDF um that was held the the session um earlier this year um he's really struggled with that because the digital the data storage perspective it's huge. We have a huge amount of duplication across the entire organization and tackling that is a cultural shift and yeah it's a hard one and it's not just my you know we feel it across the entire organization but yeah I hopefully that answers the question. >> Oh we've got a couple more questions. So, next one is, are there recommendations for storing working digital files such as 3D scanning point clouds versus final files? Eg. And I hope I get this correct because this is not actually my field. I'm a total amateur at this. Um, but have a look in the comments. Eg. Final 3D. I don't know this acronym objects STL model within DAMS. I've totally butchered that. >> Okay. Okay. It's a bit of a pity my colleague um Cat's not present today, but essentially we have had sessions discussing that essentially we kind of treat the whatever they have a working folder that they usually use with the digital um um the digital creators here at Tapa because of course we have a large um team working on that kind of um those kind of content we create. Um so they have a lot of their own working photos. it's usually the final product that we save into the dams or else um that's what I that's what that's what we've kind of agreed to more recently but again some of those answers to the nuts and bolts of that workflow have only just been kind of worked on um and it's a little bit I've only touched on it in respect to the fact that I um I manage the um cat who looks after that system um and looking at what her capabilities and understanding what we have from a longtime storage point of view with our um our net x but essentially they're looking at you know that is the final baked product goes into um goes into net x media library hopefully that I'm sorry there's a lot of comments I'm just trying to read through >> it's all good I'm I'm reading them out so we've got a a little bit more time so we've got two more questions that have come in um and obviously you know Any other questions? Kirsty's very um kindly said she'll answer them by email. So, assuming you have a library and archives, how do you manage your relationship with the library and their systems and their desire to store their assets in their systems? >> Okay, it's a little bit separate, I'll be honest. Um so, yes, we do to a certain extent. I'm only speaking from Tapa's perspective. Um we do um allow to have our rare books cataloged in emu and distributed through our collections online. It's very high level. Um Martin Lewis who's in charge of our um our library here at Tapa has been doing that for a very long time. And we do distribute the digital assets that we create as part of like you know creating those digital surrogates the high resolution scans of the plates within our really incredibly rare scientific rare books but it's just focused on the rare books and again we don't have integrations with any other thing. It's just emu by itself. So we do not integrate with our uh our library management system per se where they manage those um manage the the entire library. Um yeah so it's only select few which is what is anemia and that is bare bones and we do cross reference to them kind of similar to what I was saying we it's cross referencing with a little bit of code which kind of gives the impression that we do link to these other systems but it's not really we do have a bit of that for media library and we do have it for what we um our our record management system which is called po mataho and it gives the illusion for a lot of our users is that they are integrated but they're not. It's all smok and mirrors a bit. Um, I also have to say I did see at the top a person making a call out like with the fact that the person who was the eye in the Wellington was what I consider original OG the goat of all time is um Mick Crouch who's from um who's at archives New Zealand who was original what we community of the Wellington um and I don't know if Mick's here today but um he was original um thought behind the Wellington community, especially the um digital preservation implementers guild, DPIG for sure is what it used to be called here in Wellington. Um but yeah, I love DPIG. That's definitely got to go on top of the acronym list. Um >> it's been very acronym heavy. So sorry anyone who hasn't followed. >> One last question before we close. Um, what digital preservation system do you use and why did you choose it over other options? >> Okay, as I mentioned, we don't have a digital preservation system here at Papa. We would to acquire one does cost a bit of money and I think um we are really hopeful to acquire one in the near future. Um, but the only digital preservation system that I'm personally familiar with with is Rosetta, like I mentioned, and but I was part of the NDHA project in which we basically co-designed that with Exal Librus to develop Rosetta. I knew Rosetta before it was Rosetta, when it was beta. Um, yeah, personally, this is I'm going to just put it out there. Personally, Rosetta I don't really feel is really appropriate for a museum or gallery. It's more appropriate for libraries. Um I'm my gut feeling is more towards Preservica or Archivematica which I know is heavily used by other similar organizations overseas to us. Um but yeah. >> Oh, awesome. Thank you so much. Look, we're right on 1:00. So, um that's us. Uh just a little bit of closing housekeeping for everybody. So, just reminding you all that um we will be emailing the recording out um to everyone and um Christy has said she will answer follow-up questions. So, um I'm sure we'll be able to get her email address um out there as well if anything, you know, pops up at 2:00 a.m. in the morning that you just have to ask. Um, we'd also indeed love it if you make sure you sign up to our newsletter so you can hear about um, our next online sessions and other announcements. Um, our next session is going to be about oral history collections um, with Sue Berman and Renee Our from Oakland Council Libraries. Um, so really looking forward to that one. If you're really really really keen on getting involved with NDF, our board elections are actually coming up in November. So nominations are open now. Um if you're curious about NDF, you want to know more um before you put your hand up maybe all of us um we love NDF. We love talking about NDF. So please reach out. You can email um via the website and ask to talk to one of us or um you know you'll see all of us on LinkedIn. So honestly hit up our DMs. We're more than happy to talk about it. We love this community. We love what we do and anybody who's thinking about um putting their hand up, we'd love to have a chat to you. Um and just finally a huge huge thank you to everybody for joining us today. Um I love the comment. Love these brutally honest discussions about our own sector. Thank you for your cander, Kirsty. We love it too. And yeah, once again, thank you so much, Kirsty. It's um been a pleasure listening, learning, and we're just so thankful for your um your time and your generosity. Um that's it from us.