Malcolm Gladwell: You Are Optimizing Yourself Out of Experience

We got Chris Chavez here from Cidius Mag. We have Malcolm Gladwell [music] who needs no introduction and we're going to see what happens. Roll the dice. >> I think it's going to be fantastic. It's going to be fun. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Performance is an individual act. Actual racing is such a tiny part of the experience of being an athlete. [music] The Boston Marathon or the New York City Marathon relied more on pure competition. We need to kind of bring that back. The idea of having as one of your tentpole events, something where there's a realistic chance of a grizzled previous generation guy can come and win it all is fantastic. We're selling it all wrong. Like, don't [music] sell to racing. Sell the training. I had uh dinner uh with some friends several months ago, but one of the people at this dinner was Molly Sidell, who I met for the very first time. >> Yeah. >> And we had this really interesting conversation cuz she was, you know, she had just signed with Satisfy and she had just announced that she was going to be running Western States. >> And I was like, man, this is like this this is signaling perhaps a new era. Like I've always wondered what happens when somebody who is that good like an elite marathoner like an Olympian decides you know what I'm going to before you know we've seen elite athletes in the twilight of their career postretirement like drop into this world but what happens when somebody who's still in that zone of of elite high performance decides you know what maybe there's something for me over here and I was like you you might just drop in and just rewrite the record books like perhaps All of these times that we're seeing in these really long races are just lowhanging fruit for somebody who's really good. Like what happens if Kipchigible decides he wants to like do Leadville or something, you know, like and the question of course is like will that translate? And then Molly drops in and you know she struggled. It was her first time, you know, perhaps with a little bit of experience. This is still something that could happen. But like >> do you think about that? Like >> how did she account for struggling? Did she have an explanation? >> I don't I don't know. I don't know the details of it. I think it kind of all started to fall apart a handful of hours into it and she to her credit, you know, didn't drop out. She decided to like really push through and was celebrated for that. But she came in at like 24 hours or something. You know, >> I I you know, I think it goes back just sort of like I think for a long time probably a lot of track and and running folks would look at just sort of like, oh, what's the average pace that that person ran for 100 miles, 50 miles, or whatever it is, and they would just think, oh, like that's not that fast all things considered, cuz we're used to seeing all these crazy fast times on the track. And then, you know, seeing the performances that someone like Jim Walmsley has just put together, both, you know, holding the Western States course record for as long as he did, but then you take a couple steps back and he wasn't like the most accomplished track athlete. Like he he attempted the steeple chase way back in the day and like it w he wasn't all that great. And so I think for a period of time people just thought it was like all right well like trail is and ultra is where you know the not so great track. Yeah. And now it's it's really cool to see someone like Molly go in at this point where she's still very young, arguably in her prime. And I think like there's still, you know, that kind of a little bit of unfinished business when it comes to just the traditional marathon that she won an Olympic bronze medal in, you know, 5 years ago at this point. Um, but yeah, there I I think Trail and the Ultra Scene is getting younger and and and faster. Part of that also probably does come with what you brought up before which was like this investment from the brands to you know now that they're there's money there's so much money make a living in this world. >> This raises an interesting question I've always wondered about ultra which is is ultra an extension of distance running or is it is it its own >> c it's one yeah it's one of two things and I don't think we really have the answer to that. My gut would be that it's own it's it own it own. >> I don't think I don't see anything. What does running for 2 hours and 20 minutes have in common with running for 24 hours? Like very very little. And also >> psychological >> tolerate sleep deprivation is not a factor in track and field or marathon running. >> We've gotten to the stage now where for the mentality of the marathoners is a lot closer to the mentality of 10k runners, the 10k runners of a generation ago than it is to the No one's thinking of this as this kind of like you know insuperable psychological obstacle. They're like it's routine whereas Leadville and Western States are like insupable psychological obstacles. They're like >> what I don't know is whether Molly Cidell and it's a good chance she can is has this the psychological makeup to do to transition from two hours to 24. We've seen Dez Lynon, you know, in the world as well. Yeah. >> And yeah, I mean I the thing with Molly is just also sort of she's still just so early on and sort of like this next chapter in this foray into Trail that I I don't follow it as closely to know how many people just nail it on that first go. And so u give it a couple years. And I think that that's sort of like when we could probably make the assessment of whether this move was, you know, the the right one. But it is it is exciting and I think it does draw more eyeballs because like you I I look at it sometimes through podcast analytics at times that you know these the marath the top marathoners in in uh in the United States are some of the most popular athletes in distance running. Yeah. And that, you know, kind of pairs with the fact that uh the the masses are sharing the same race and they can sort of relate to the idea of, you know, running a marathon whereas like someone like Noah Lyles doesn't generate as much traffic as I could do a one-on-one interview with no Liles and it does way fewer downloads and all that kind of stuff than someone like Conor Mance or Clayton Young. And so I think that it's really cool to see that there sort of that popularity that these people have generated from running traditional marathons, they're bringing that to to the to the ultra scene uh as well. >> Yeah. If you are on the world stage as a marathoner, you're an elite marathoner, but you know, in every prestigious race, you're coming you're coming between like fifth and 10th. Like why are you not thinking like maybe I'm maybe I should go, you know, give it a shot over in this other world. Maybe I have a better chance of distinguishing myself. Like when you saw what happened with Rachel and Tran at Cocodona, like it went globally viral what she did like the up there is an upside there that might not be available to that like elite but just below the top, you know, the the highest tier of of performance. >> Yeah. Well, I think maybe the money is one factor that maybe hasn't caught up. Uh even if you're >> like is that person who's getting fifth or 10th at those marathons like making a good living? I don't even know. >> Uh for an American probably because they they get some heavy appearance fees to show up to the race. So like you don't necessarily so a lot of and the crazy about uh thing about running is that so many of these numbers are under NDAs and so like we don't necessarily know what exact numbers are but some of these folks do get six figures to show up to the New York City Marathon and then from there there are you know bonus structures in place where it's if you make it to you know 20 miles if you're top American or whatever it is like uh that you can trigger more money into your contract. contract. And so, um, even if the person is finishing seventh, you know, that that probably was a better payday than they would have got if they podiumed at something like Western States. Um, so I think >> but the average person has no idea who that person is. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. It's sort of like would you trade in just sort of like the financial stability versus, you know, the popularity and then how do you kind of take that popularity to translate to dollars and that's kind of like the next thing. So, um, yeah, but the the financial side of of running is still kind of a little bit taboo to talk about, um, just because it's been that way for so many years. >> Yeah. What do you think about that? >> Think about whether people should be switching out. >> Yeah. >> Like, well, I mean, I think there probably there's such a great unknown about that. There's you by the time you're 25 and you've invested so heavily in being a marathoner and thinking about the marathon, it's quite a transition. I would think >> there's also all these little like subcultures within subcultures like the person who does really well at the backyard ultrasing themselves at, you know, bad water. >> Yeah. Then there's what mountain running. there's, you know, all the different I couldn't tell you what all the different racing disciplines are at something like, uh, UTMB, but uh, yeah. So, it's like there's so many different ways to also, I think, but, you know, separate yourself as a champion and as a really good athlete in Ultra Trail where as in the mar in the marathon, at a major, it's only really the the winners in the podium and the top Americans who generate, I think, a lot of the the attention. And so, um, >> how how different is the training? >> I think that it's still very much an unknown. Like, I've interviewed so many of these people and they all have such different approaches to uh to their training. Some of them really go on intuition and feel and they don't even have a coach and they go out and they just run as long as they feel like they should that day and, you know, kind of make adjustments along the way. Who's who's the super analytical one who um god I heard an interview with him on science of sport ultra guy posts all of his workouts has all this very clearly worked out things about fueling >> oh David Ro fascinating on the show I think that's the one I listen to >> so Roach what surprised me about Roach was his training did not seem that dissimilar from a marathoner's training >> right he's not doing. >> He was experimenting with tons of threshold work and also training like a competitive eater. Uh his whole thing was to see how many carbohydrates per hour he could train his body to absorb. And he's convinced that that is the limiter, you know, like that is what's limiting so many of these athletes because they can't sustain a threshold pace because they can't they they have gut issues and and they're not able to absorb enough calories. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] So, and he's had success, but you know, then he got injured and he's had, you know, it hasn't been a perfect like trajectory for him. But I think >> him transparently sharing all of these experiments is sort of the ultra running version of Brian Johnson trying to live forever, you know, and it creates a lot of >> public intrigue and interest and affection for him and controversy for sure. And you know, maybe we need a little bit more of that in this world if we want to capture >> people's interest and fascination. Like when what Rachel and Tranken did went global, like what are the lessons that we can learn from that that would make people more interested in track and field? Like I went to my first track and field world championships a couple years ago in Tokyo. We tried to connect and we never were able to. You were like podcasting every day and I was really surprised at the pageantry of it. like, oh, like I thought I knew what to expect. I'd never been to a real legit like big track and field meet and it was really a unique experience like and I can after that I can understand why somebody is like >> reluctant to leave that world. >> Yeah. >> To try something you know some experiment in the ultra world >> to the point of Roach. So if you look up basketball, uh an enormous amount of fan involvement in basketball is around the game, not of the game. So huge numbers of basketball fans don't even watch much basketball. I would be one of them. What I do is I listen to people talk about basketball, think about basketball, read about basketball, and follow it through statistics. Right? And I'm a model for a lot of people follow basketball the way I do. running doesn't have we have way too little conversation around running. We're still way too formous focused on the performance itself. And someone like Roach is attacking that problem by being so open and transparent about in the way that he trained. And I often thought that one solution to this would be that, you know, the the Garmins and uh Whoops and Aura rings of the world should sponsor athletes on the condition that they post all of their data. M >> if I knew exactly what Josh Curry was doing over the last months, you know, in preparation for this run at the world record or if I knew exactly how Sawe trained leading up to what, you know, that would be that would so enhance my interest in the sport and allow a whole class of people into the sport who aren't there >> in all these sports. This this culture of secrecy is so self-defeating and the notion that somehow if I'm an elite athlete and I share my workouts, I'm compromising my ability to win. >> Somebody knows what I'm doing. >> Your coach's IP or whatever. Yeah, >> it's I'm sorry. This is a separate obsession of mine with the craziness of our obsession with IP. I I I've had it with [laughter] that term IP. It is totally [ __ ] useless. Who cares? Does that apply to AI scraping [laughter] everything that you've ever done and then giving it to people for free and making your books uh nobody want to buy your books anymore? >> So, who owns the IP of my last book? I don't care. I care where the I care who gets the money from the sale. >> Uhhuh. >> Right. Or who gets enjoyment out of it or anyway this is a quite a this note we have applied this ludicrous notion to sports and how can you follow running if you don't know what the runners are doing? We I see them I see them 16 minutes a year. >> Yeah. >> Right. And I'm supposed to be a fan of the of the sport. >> Uh I I think cycling is doing a better job of this. Like Whoop is posting what TAD's like strain score like just I think yesterday it was like oh he had a 20.8 strain score and he had a max heart rate of 198. >> I don't know that he's you know on Strava these cyclists they'll post their workouts. I don't know how meaningful that is to people. So selectively >> but yeah right like the big the mega rod or the coffee >> psych out your that's why straa is the natural person for this the condition should be you have to post you have to record everything and post everything no there's that's that's interesting to me but it takes a certain type of personality it takes a David Ro type personality for that to translate and not all athletes are are wired for that nor should they be like it's okay to just want to be an athlete and perform. It's different when you're that entrepreneurial extroverted athlete who's like who can be a social media influencer at the same time. >> I disagree. So if I'm a basketball player, I play 82 games a year and I might play if I'm a starter whatever 32 minutes. So I don't know how many 82* 32 minutes. I don't know what that is. It's a very large number. That is a body of work that basketball fans have unlimited access to. They can watch me play. They can analyze to their hearts content every aspect of my performance. And every year more and more and more analysis based on that body of work is available to the fan. Right? So it doesn't matter. There are very shy NBA players, but they don't shield the world from seeing how many, you know, what their particular statistical profile was in a given game or so in running, we just have to get past this fact. If you're shy, whatever your your your livelihood in this sport depends on fan engagement and you are, if you are an elite athlete, you are de facto public figure in the world of athletics. >> You're an entertainer. >> You're an entertainer. The problem is I guess the contracts aren't written in that way in running and so that's what the >> well they're still living in a different era where you know bonuses are based on podiums and things like that which which aren't necessarily calibrated to what is going to move the product like the whole the whole like kind of value proposition of paying these athletes in the first place which is to like sell more of whatever. >> Yeah. I think a perfect example for something like this is, you know, someone like Sharon Lucetti, who's the uh Kenyan marathoner who's won the Boston Marathon two of the last three years, I believe, or or back the last backto-back years. And I saw someone just do like a public audit of like her social media channels. And it's like, well, this doesn't really match up with just sort of like the level of athlete that she is. She's won New York, she's won Boston, she was fourth at the Olympic Games and I think just barely has like over 10,000 followers or anything. Uh, and I was like, well, yeah, I mean, you're assessing their social media posts. Their job is to train really hard to be able to run a 14, 35, 5K late in the late stages of a of the Boston Marathon, not necessarily to hit post on Instagram. And it's just sort of like the contracts for these athletes don't have those structures in place where it's like hey like you have this budget for you know social media person or uh or a photographer to be at every practice or anything like that. And so um it's a shame because we do want these people to be bigger stars so that others can you know recognize just like oh yeah I mean I was rooting for that you know really big move late in the late stages of the race because I know what this person's been up to this whole entire time. But aren't most runners kind of quiet, introverted, you know, athletes living a somewhat monastic lifestyle? Like when you think of Noah Ly showing up and he's got the Pokemon and the briefcase and the, you know, the whole like Yeah. Like that's a whole like these people are like they are performers. You know, there is a performance to that, a theatricality to that that is, you know, not the typical kind of mindset of the average, you know, out outstanding runner. >> People I have tons of conversations with teenagers or pre-teeners trying to convince them to join their school's cross country team. It's like one of my little things that I do constantly. And the thing they don't understand is they think that the what they're like, why would I do it? It's so solitary blah blah. And my point is, no, no, no, no, no. It's insanely social cross, particularly cross country. You go for like an eight mile run with your best friends and you're running at a pace where you can chat. You just you just basically gossiping for an hour and a half with your best friends who are all fit and cute and like this is perfect. This is like and then you get in a bus and you go for an hour and a half to attract me and then you're flirting with the person next to you and the this is like what do you what do you want and then you go to the meet and you run for like six minutes and the rest of the time you're lying in the infield with other cute people. [laughter] This is like a dream. This is this is so much better than basketball in every way. you you've been hired as a chief marketing officer [laughter] cross country >> performance is an individual act but performance actual racing is such a tiny part of you know we all know this of the experience of being an athlete and like we're selling it all wrong like don't sell the don't sell the the the [snorts] racing sell the training training is I love training >> I don't know I think I I don't know if the training is the skeleton key to unlock unlock like public fascination or broadening public interest, >> just getting kids to >> But I think like when you were talking about basketball or just athletes sharing their their training as a way into penetrating like public interest, when I think of basketball, isn't it isn't isn't it really as much the drama off the court as it is what's happening during the games? Like the perfect example would be Formula 1. Like Tyler over here, he's he always says like, "Oh, the reason everyone's interested in Formula 1 is it's like the Bachelor for guys." Like there's so much dram like interpersonal drama >> around these drivers and the teams and all that kind of stuff. It it like has nothing to do with what happens on race day, you know, >> and that somehow has captured the fascination of, you know, millions, if not billions of people across the world. Like that's something that is lacking in these smaller sports. It's like we don't really know who these people are. >> No. And I think it's even those circles I think are so small that even some of that little friction that sometimes makes, you know, creates attention in something like Formula 1 or the NBA where there's a player who unfollowed this team and that kind of stuff that generates headlines. like in running I think it's so the the problem is it's so small among the people who are covering it who are participating in it the top 1% the coaches the agents that someone's bound to get upset if you frame something wrong and so um that's what kind of detracts some of those things from getting traction but it to your point like it is what would make it I think a bit more fun. [music] >> Yeah. Not all creatine is created equal, which is why I'm here reminding you once again why I trust Momentous and why I take their creatine specifically. They already made one of the best on the market. 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Spots that I do not hand out easily. Their sunst sticks sold out last summer and their mineral spray is selling really fast. Everything is in stock right now though, so make sure you get it before it sells out. Go to freaksofe.com and use the code richroll to save 20% when you order now. >> So right now we've got World Cup happening. uh Wimbledon, um there's so much sports happening right now. Uh Tour to France, are you watching all of this? Like what what can the running world or track and field learn from these the most globally popular sports in the world? I wish that this is particularly true of marathons, but and this is not a new suggestion, but the thing about tennis is how much individual personality each distinctive personality each grand slam has. Same with golf, and we don't have that same >> I know where he's going with this. >> This is, you know, that I'm not the only one to say this, but >> we've talked about this on our own before. >> One of the marathon majors should be old school. What does that mean? There should be um no one can wear the uh a watch. Uh there should be no um uh uh no super shoes at all. You get your shoes from the from the event. They're old school shoes. There's no clocks during the course and there's no pacers. Just do it old school. Like let's see people and the fueling just water. [laughter] >> And let's let's make it a hilly course. >> Yeah. Like this is 1975. >> 1975. The winner can be 214 and a bunch of guys are going to bonk and like in mile 21 which we haven't seen at an elite level in quite some time and that will be >> maybe somebody will take a subway train. >> Yeah, [laughter] right. Rosie Ruiz it >> it would be and if I knew if I knew that every year that's what I'm picking a city. That's what Barcelona was. Barcelona was like >> I'd be much more interested in watching that >> so much more. But then Berlin could be go for it >> like every single thing and London could be some and some of them there's two sec secondarily the courses themselves should be more interesting all this flat stuff give me a break it should not it's like well this is the flip side of the enhanced games like this is the other side of that coin right did you guys watch that >> yeah I let curiosity get the best of me and I watch I was on a on a plane actually and I just like jumped on wife and I was like, you know what, just going to tune in and watch it live. And um I didn't I wasn't expecting world records, but I wanted to see just sort of what the presentation of this was going to be like. And they were far from delivering on world records. And even the one that they got has been met with just a bunch of scrutiny, I'm sure, from the swimming community on the size of the pool and all that kind of stuff. But um I think you if you watched it for knowing this is a big marketing vehicle for what they're trying to push. Um then you saw them do that. But I from a sporting spectacle there really wasn't I think too much to it. >> Did you watch it, Malcolm? >> No. >> You didn't you didn't even watch it. Did you did you consciously boycott it or just it didn't >> it didn't even rise to the level of [laughter] like what am I doing here? Like it >> those track times were just abysmal. >> Well, it was ter Yeah, it was terrible. which left people with one of two theories. Either this just means that everyone uh at the elite level is doping or uh these were not, you know, the right people or they hadn't been on their doping protocol long enough or that like these these compounds don't actually work in the way that we >> shoes are more important than >> doping, >> but they let the swimmers wear the skin suits and I think that was the real differentiator kind of like you know on the better end of those performances. is I mean it was sub it was like underwhelming across the board >> but why not let the track guys put springs in their sho do some crazy thing with their shoes you know if they're going to like let the swimmers wear these suits what is the technical gear uh advantage in track and field >> yeah I think we'll see that um I think the the the toughest part with running and track is that it just it lives so much around the Olympic cycle right and so at some point you get too close to trying to experiment with these off events or these exhibitions where you try to get a little bit freaky and bend the rules a little bit, but um it's it's not out of the question. We saw Kip Chigible attempt the sub two marathon twice. Didn't get it the first time, but that first one was similar in in the sense of they knew it wasn't going to be world record eligible, so let's optimize it for uh trying to see how close you can get to to two hours. And I think it did open so many people's eyes to like, oh, this could be possible. Um, and so yeah, I mean like I I with last year Faith Capon attempting the 4-minute mile didn't come close. I think 40 406 was was was good, but similarly to the swimmers at the enhanced games, you don't know what exactly was I mean it's a time that I think that she could have run in a regular race, but they outfitted her with there's the marketing side to it. We'll say it's the spikes or the suit that she was wearing, the pacing formations. And when you throw too many of those things into a record attempt, then it's really hard to quantify. Well, how much did they actually get from this versus that? And so, uh, yeah, I'm sure we'll see other ones. There are other >> madeup barriers that I think people can try and, uh, you know, market around the sport. The sport loves around numbers. But, yeah, I I going back to Malcolm's point about just sort of making these events feel, I think, a little bit more important and unique. Like I think that is sort of like the beauty to something like the Boston Marathon or the New York City Marathon where those are the ones that don't have pacemakers. they you know uh they just are tougher courses with the bridges and the hills and so that one relies more on pure competition and uh we need to kind of bring that back I think to there's just such a overfixation on times and this is something I think I feel like I talk about weekly with just sort of all of these and and that goes to the marathon and also to to track where um you tune into so many of these broadcasts and this is my one gripe is that the announcers will just get so fixated on like this is what the meat record is or the world record or the world lead and when they the athletes deliver on a really thrilling finish or a race like they'll still bring up the fact that like oh but they missed the meet record or the world lead or whatever it is and it's like no let's focus on the fact that we just had a really good race between these you know phenomenal athletes and so um it just I the the framing around competition I think is what needs some work across probably a variety of different Olympic sports. Swimming probably also has that too. >> The be the best example of this golf does this better than anybody. And the best example of this was I don't know what year it was, but do you remember when Tom Watson nearly won the British Open at the age of was he 59 58 59 he lost in a playoff to Stewart Stewart Sync maybe if I'm remembering correctly. >> I don't I don't follow it that closely. That's because golf has one of the four majors, the British Open, is played on a course that is set up in such a way that a 59y old can compete against a 25-year-old or a 30-year-old. And it's not you could not have that happen that couldn't happen at the Masters, could not happen at the US Open, but it can happen at the British Open. So like you it's a completely different >> and the idea of having as one of your tentpole events something where there's a realistic chance of a savvy grizzled you know previous generation guy can come and win it all is fantastic like and that's because they have paid attention to what Chris is just talking about Tom Watson in no way at that time was the greatest golfer in the world in no way if you would just want to do an abstract comparison of golfers, but they were smart enough to know that we can construct a competitive environment where he can compete with the best. And that was I mean I'm still talking this is 25 years ago. I'm still talking about it. I'm not the only >> Well, another example of that is the race between the two of you guys. I've spoken to [laughter] you both about this, but like what was that like four or five years ago? >> Five years ago. Yeah. had a legit track meet here in New York City where Chris and Malcolm faced off in the mile. And that was one of the like I was more excited to watch that than I'm like I like track and field. I'm not like insane about it like you guys, but I was not going to miss watching that. >> It was brilliantly hyped it up. I got to say that was >> to my own demise. I think Yeah. So >> So you were the Tom Watson in this equation. [laughter] >> I was the grizzle vet who came through. >> What What did you run? 515 or something like that. >> He he ran 513 and I just was off the back 520 something. But um I think the biggest takeaway I had from from that race is one probably go into it in better shape. Uh but two I think I overextended myself on I think moments before that race was even going off. I had to like rush up to the broadcast booth to make sure that like uh the stream was working properly. Barely I think got a warm-up in. So these are my excuses coming out five years later. But um it was uh you know it it was a lot of fun. I don't do well now uh when I put a big goal out there and drive some attention. So like personally I think I've strayed away from doing that. You know if I want to go attempt a marathon PR I think when I when I finally did break three hours in the marathon that was something I was after for a long time. I went to Houston, didn't really tell too many people and just went out and did it. And so that was the biggest lesson I had from uh that race with Malcolm is just I don't do so well with just sort of like the uh the pressure and attention in the leadup. Uh and that thing ended up getting I think a quarter million views on on YouTube and a Men's Health article that hyped him up and then bashed me. [laughter] >> Is that right? I never saw that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Are we Can we Can we expect a rematch at some point? >> He's going to kill me. This is done. >> No, he's way way I have no I don't belong in the same track as Chris. I got I had a very fortunate set of circumstances break my way and also there's something you know this rich something happens between five years ago when you're 62 5 years is a long is like a big I am nowhere close to the runner I was in my late 50s >> he was 57 I was 27 >> yeah but you're quietly training hard I would imagine >> you the the word on you out there is that you're the ultimate sandbagger >> [laughter] >> True or false? I'm not even going to answer. >> That track down like, you know, along the East River there where all the all the Manhattan Knights go to, you know, match. >> I don't I don't run there anymore. No, I have I can't do the kind of training because I now live upstate and I have kids and I can't, you know, so I my I do little things on my own. >> The sandbagging psychological warfare. [laughter] >> I' I've thought a lot about it. What I would really like to do is the one the one event I think I could in my my advanced age do well in at this point is the 800 and I would like if I could configure my family obligations in such a way I'd love to make a run at like a decent you know post 60 half mile time. >> Yeah, >> I think I still have a little bit of speed. >> That's what I would need for that. But uh I can't be Chris. Not that's that's >> there was a much more under the radar rematch that did happen. We we we did run a 3K against each other indoors at the Armory. This one we didn't like really tell people about before him, but he >> kicked my butt again. So I'm 0 and2 against Malcolm in in a race. >> I forgot about that. [laughter] >> This uh tradition uh of running well in publishing uh needs to be extended. We have like Nick Thompson right now who's like breaking all these Masters records. >> Yeah, Nick is the real deal. >> Yeah, he, you know, he's definitely the best runner in publishing right now, I think, isn't he? >> I would think so. Yeah. Uh, and then especially when you take into account just sort of like the age group records and stuff that he goes for. Uh, >> yeah, I if we disqualify any former professional athletes, uh, then I would say yeah, Nick is definitely >> also being the CEO of the Atlantic and [laughter] being by all accounts like a very good dad, you know, who's who's there for his kids. So, this is possible. Malcolm, >> he's Nick is really So, I know I've known Nick for a long time. have run with him and it's like a revelation. He's just on another, you know, I quit commit competitive running when I was in my teens because I I was running against a guy and I understood that I would never be at his level. You just sort of know, right? You meet these people who are and what interests me about Nick is so he's one of the best in the world uh for his age. Um, does this mean he could have been one of the best in the world when he was 25 or is it again are we talking about a separate category of achievement? Is there a whole different class of people who come into their own in their 40s and 50s? I wish there was a good explanation. Is his aging curve just different from everyone else's? is uh is he somehow managed to stay healthier than like what's the explan like how do we how do we account for somebody who was a good but not great D1 runner and then becomes flatout world class in his 40s. >> Yeah. Well, I think the other thing to also maybe remember, we do we do have a way of kind of assessing it when he goes out and he's done it I think a couple times and gone out to run like the World Marathon Majors Masters Championship race or whatever it is and someone like Ken Ry out I think has also run those and and and fared well. But I guess the the problem would be just sort of we don't really see all that many what 40 late 40year-old Kenyans and Ethiopians still going at it in the sport. everyone kind of makes their money and their the most of their opportunity in their 20s and 30s and then kind of ride off into the sunset. Whereas like here in the states like there's so many people just like Nick who have kind of they don't have all the heavy mileage on their legs from those 20s that um it kind of allows for them to and plus super shoes and all that kind of stuff has allowed them to extend their careers by so many more years. >> But it's also the psychological factor. A lot of these people are are people that feel they're motivated by the fact that they know that they for whatever reason or life circumstance were not able to achieve their potential as an athlete in their prime. And so there's something to prove. There's an animating energy to the master's athlete. >> Whereas the person who achieved all of their goals, they're like, >> why would I keep doing this? You know, it's a different it's a different mentality. I mean, I have a friend from [snorts] my college swimming days, Alex Costich. He never retired. He just continued to train swimming as if he was still, you know, at Stanford in 1987 or whatever. And he's gone on to dominate uh open water swimming like throughout his 40s. And even now in his mid50s, like he's slowed down a little bit, but he still pops into like the wy ki rough water swim and maybe he won't win, but like he'll get third and everyone else is like between the ages of 16 and 19. It's insane. >> Yeah. >> You know, [laughter] >> I think this is like a very sub subculture of like like open water swimming. like nobody pays attention to this, but this guy is like he's just the most like it's consistency over decades. >> This is a great PhD thesis for a sports physiologist. I'm sure some they've done versions of it, but like identifying a category a number of examples of these kinds of of he's not like a late bloomer. He's just a continuous bloomer. He's a perennial. >> Yeah. >> Not a late bloomer. >> Yeah. I think I I can't remember how like there was a group chat of me and some of my swimmers from back in that day and we're like, "Did you see what Alex did?" And then when you when you added up like the top like I think maybe he was fourth, I don't know, in this race and if you add up the ages of the top three like they still were younger than him. [laughter] >> I love that. I know. And I think it's just also a statement on culture and people's interest in longevity and maintaining their health. Like we're just we're just rewriting our expectations around >> human possibility because we're treating our bodies differently and we have a better understanding about how to do that. And you know when I was it was like oh if you're 21 years old like you're toast. You're done. Like you'll never you know like like go to the trails. that was the thing, you know, and it's like, oh no, that was just because like it just wasn't possible to extend your athletic career beyond those beyond college. So years ago, before any of this, I needed a website. So I did what you did back then. I hired a designer. [music] I waited months. I paid a small fortune and ended up with something I couldn't [music] change a word of without calling them, paying again, waiting again because it was impossible to do any of this stuff yourself. 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Learn more and schedule a demo drive near you at rivan.com. what what's happened in running in the last and I love this is something that Chris can you know we've had the op like in a lot of sports what we've seen is extension at the top end older athletes lasting longer but the big story in running in the last competitive in the last couple of years has been the opposite that we've got genuine world-class performers emerging in their teens like >> Cooper >> Len who's arguably the best half mile in the world at 17. We've got the Cammy Myers at 20, who's maybe the best mileer in the world right now. Who who nonchalanted his way to 331 the other day? Like, >> was it 33? I just >> Yeah. Yeah. 328. >> 328. Sorry. 328. I watched that and I was like, >> he would just went out for a run and it was 3:28 and he's 20 years old. I was I couldn't I was watching I was like >> and he just kind of like eased away and and then there's Sam Ruthie and there's >> who's the kid who's in high school right now? >> Cooper Cooper. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> He's I mean he's at 17. We never >> And so how do you account for that? >> I don't know why running is suddenly and he's we could come up with other examples. >> Yeah. Women have had that for a while, but that's there's sound physiological reasons why you might expect women to peak earlier than men. But this is this seems new and kind of interesting. >> Um, yeah. And I think the biggest thing because right now, I guess I've been looking at it a lot with Cam Myers in particular where, you know, he's an Australian middle distance runner who's just rewriting, you know, not only his national record books, but slowly moving up in, you know, just the alltime list. Uh but we we love just kind of looking back as Yakabing Britzen tends to be like the example that a lot of people point to. So you know grew up in maybe one of the uh most competitive Norwegian families where he's uh his old his older brothers were both runners. His dad was a renowned coach for for a bit. They had a whole like Kardashian style TV show that followed them around uh for several years. and you saw this kid grow up and then become an Olympic champion in in Tokyo. Um, but all of his times that he was running as a kid were were so were record setting and now we look at just sort of cam and we can kind of see just sort of he's already trending faster than someone than than Yakob was back in the day. And I think part of that I think is one we we keep bringing up just sort of like footwear and shoes, but that is just kind of a big part to it. Like these athletes are growing up at a time where they've had it their whole careers where for a period of time there were athletes who competed in the non superhoe or super spike era and then had to kind of adjust and um and and cross over these two eras. Uh but these high schoolers have had it this whole entire time. I think it's the accessibility to training like everything's on the internet nowadays and when you hear of the the trendy double threshold Norwegian method that is out there like that catches on and you know high school coaches or college coaches will adjust it to their programs and so the training has gotten better. The fueling is a whole another side to it too whereas it's not just in the marathon. Chris, none of these >> these are all plausible explanations, but they don't explain they they would explain why everyone's getting faster. They don't explain this particular phenomenon that a 17year-old or a 19year-old or whatever can be world class. We in a at a you know in a in a way that was simply unthinkable for most of the history. Like everyone's getting benefit of the shoes. Everyone's getting access to these better training things. Everyone's getting better fueling. the 25year-old is gets exactly the same advantages. So why are they being destroyed all of a sudden by kids? >> I think it just goes I mean there's probably the genetic factor also that kind of goes into it too. It just sort of he someone like Cooper comes from like a family of athletes but then you can also point to several other people who have had just sort of like that athletic background. But yeah, I mean every now and then there just comes those, you know, freak talents. And >> I I guess like track isn't in the same, you know, kind of uh level as it was maybe back in the Jim Ryan days, but everyone kind of argues that he Jim Ryan was the greatest high school athlete ever in history. And you can argue LeBron and all that kind of stuff, but uh Cooper's already surpassed what someone like Jim Ryan did back in the day. And it's not as mainstream nowadays, but come something like 2028, I think a lot of people will take note. And maybe that's around the time we start to learn a bit more. We we've got plenty of time, I think, to still learn more about just sort of what it is that's made him uh this good. >> But it's cool that, >> you know, in 2026, we can still be amazed and surprised, you know, when we think we're just, you know, kind of nearing the end of what is possible athletically. I mean, look at what Todd Pagache is doing in the in the tour right now. Like, if you tune in to Lance's The Move podcast, like, there's a lot of talk like, "Oh, this is like he's he is the best athlete in the world right now. He's so dominant. Like, perhaps greater than Eddie Merks ever was. It would be the analogy that Lance used was it would be like somebody winning the New York City Marathon by 10 minutes." like like the margin that separates him and everybody else is so dramatic and like how do we account for this when everybody's training super hard and you know this sport is so globally popular like you know anybody who would show the potential would end up you know in this race and yet he is so much better than everybody else. The only thing that I can think of for these is that you know and David Epste talks in one of his books a lot about this the sorting which is in any kind of situation where someone is has a lot of athletic potential. There is a process in which they try and figure out where they belong. Right? And one of the arguments against early specialization is you it impairs your sorting. You can think you're a good swimmer at nine, but actually no, you should have done volleyball, but you couldn't figure that you can't figure that out if you unless you play volleyball until you're whatever. So >> that was a a a significant constraint on early great performances that we're still sorting. Federer is still playing football at 16. So we don't know whether he could have obliterated every you know tennis thing. But one one possible explanation what's going on now is maybe we're for for reasons we don't entirely understand sorting mechanisms are getting a lot more efficient early on. >> Mhm. >> Um that we just have a clearer idea about where people belong and >> not efficient enough for the United States to be competitive in the World Cup >> at the level of expectations. You know, there's a lot of discussion right now like how come we can't compete at the highest level in this in this sport. Everybody's got a theory. >> My theory is it's we're using the wrong theory. >> So there's >> I knew he would have like [laughter] I knew this is something I want to hear. This has been >> Okay, go ahead. >> Thought a lot about this and the discussion sort of drives me crazy. >> There are two paths to excellence in any kind of community. There's a scale path and there's an exploitation path. The scale path is you play the numbers. If I increase the number of people participating in said activity, I will by definition improve my chances of getting a superstar. Right? If I if I go from a thousand people running a marathon every year to a 100,000, I'm going to get 10x more elite athletes. The other route is exploitation which is it's not about increasing the size of the pool. It's about increasing the quality of the pool. Looking at who's there and somehow bringing them to the next level. Our assumption in America is that all of these problems are scale problems. So we say we're the biggest country in the world. We have scale on everything. We should be succeeding at everything. But the truth is that at the very highest level of not just athletic performance but all performance, it's almost never scale. It's exploitation. You know the classic example would be I forgot what the exact number is something like 60% of Nobel prizes were won by Jews between 19 you know 20 and 2020. There are no Jews in the world. It's not like there there was a 100 million Jewish physicists. There's a tiny number. But it was never about it's about exploitation not scale. It's about that they had a culture that allowed people to develop a level of ex intellectual excellence that put other cultures to shame. If I go down the list of elite performance, it's always exploitation. No one, the greatest tennis players almost never come from the biggest tennis playing cultures. They come from tiny tennis, chess, >> you know, [clears throat] when was the last time America had a a bonafide chess grandmaster? I mean, Bobby Fischer, right? It's been right now the best Jesper in the world is from Norway, a tiny tiny tiny country. The Netherlands has been one of the best football playing countries for since Brilliant Orange in the 70s. The Netherlands is a postage stamp. You could bury the Netherlands in a city of Chicago and not even notice it. Like there's no evidence for this notion that scale is a reasonable strategy for producing excellence in any you know only in a small number of of sports but most sports if we do distance running what is it it's Japan Kenya and Ethiopia I looked this up actually this morning I was thinking about this 68 if you look at the top 200 marathon performances in 2025 68% of them came from Kenya, Kenya, Ethiopia, and Japan who which collectively represent what some insanely tiny fraction of the world population, right? It's just like Americans have this thing which just drives me crazy. We're big. We should be good. No, got nothing to do with that. It has to do with what kind of attention do you pay and what kind of cultures do you create around excellence in very very small cohorts of people? >> Yeah, it would require rewriting our culture completely. >> Exactly. Um, >> and I don't want, by the way, I like the fact that America is a scale country because it benefits us in a mill, there are a million other things where I think scale really really works well. >> Bill Simmons and Chuck Clusterman were talking about this the other day and Chuck had a you know, he was I was very humored by his take, which is basically like this this arrogance that that Americans have like that we should be like why are like we're you know we should be exceptional at everything like this expectation, you know. No, not not. But there, like I said, the things that do require scale are the things that America excels at, and they're really, really important. >> Scale, entrepreneurial success is a scale problem. >> Norway's come up a couple times. Uh, how are we uh making sense of Norway's ascendancy as a sports uh superpower? >> It's exploitation. It's the It is the greatest example. It's a very wealthy country that has developed cultures that are really brilliant at exploiting talent, right? We're seeing it in distance running. We're seeing it in football. We just watched in the World Cup with chess. We've got like, you know, Magnus Carlson and others. It's like they >> we have Eden and Blumenfeld. >> Yeah, we've they're they have and I don't what a a better question is what exactly is the secret sauce to their exploitation strategy? I don't have a good answer to that. Well, you have a lot of thoughts on you sports and they have a very unique uh you know approach to that. This idea that like kids are not allowed to keep score until age 13 or whatever like which just completely upends all of our assumptions about what drives performance. >> The Germans I think maybe the Germans you do this thing where they don't even play >> uh uh full strength soccer until they're into their teens. They play four on four and then six on six. And then there's also a really nerdy thing that they do that we don't do which is pay huge amount of attention to relative age effect to the great inefficiency in our >> go back to some of your earliest writings on >> they take it do you know that the Dutch especially are obsessed with this that looking at their elite performers in soccer a generation ago and realizing they were all born in the first half of the year and which meant that they were losing 50% of their um or you know what they And do you know what the Australians in swimming do? You know what this >> uh >> where there's this move now where they go one step further which is they do in um these experiments with in age class swimming they have two measures of they give. One is one is your age. So you compete in your age class and then second is you can do these relatively sophisticated calculations of your biological age. And so they develop a a um a handicap. So I have a bunch of 12-y olds doing a 100 meter freestyle. I have a I use the biological age to to to have a built-in statistical handicap so that the kid who is relatively the youngest biologically has a level playing field with a kid who is, you know, maybe a year and a half ahead of his >> of his age or her age group. and then I adjust the times. So I have two sets of results that result from the race. I have the standard results and then I have the adjusted results. So you could come in last in a standard results but after I do the age class adjustment you could be first. And what that does is it radically improves the sorting mechanism because what they were finding in Australian swimming which happens is that huge numbers of kids quit in the 12 13 range because they think they're not good. M >> and you're losing all these kids who are simply late bloomers or young for their age. So this is a mechanism that says actually I know Rich you came last but if we do it you're you're you're a year behind maturity-wise with the other kids in this you and if we do that adjustment you were the best and suddenly Rich is no longer rich goes home to his mom and says I'm actually great at this I'm going to keep going for another two years >> like if you do that your capitalization >> your exploitation strategy becomes way more way more significant Australians dominance in swimming is a another example of exploitation over sorting because it's a culture you know it's a water culture like how many people live in Australia >> like I don't know 20 million or something it's like it's it's nothing you know >> it's funny we don't know is it 35 or 40 million and you know they've produced you know time and time again like Olympic champ the size of Canada >> it's basically it's basically Canada down yeah um yeah no they're a great example of of the specificity of of uh of expertise in these areas, these these these cultural specificities. >> Yeah. What's going on in track and field this summer? >> So, it's an off year technically from this is the first one we've had since the uh since the pandemic where there isn't a traditional world championship or an Olympics. And so, we got into really good cadence where Tokyo Olympics 2021 and then we had two world championships, Paris Olympic, Paris Olympics world championships. And so, um, World Athletics, the governing body, decided, well, that was pretty fun to have, you know, a pretty big high stakes competition. So, they did form what they're calling the World Athletics Ultimate Championships. Sounds like a like a Frisbee uh contest, but it's uh big prize money 3-day competition that is basically, you know, a mini world championships. Not every event is featured there. And so, that's coming up in September. And so they're going to start doing that I think every even year uh going forward. >> Where is that going to be? >> So it'll be in Budapest and so September 11th to the 13th. And so yeah, I I'll go um that'll be fun. So it'll a fun 3 days and uh it works off of like the World Athletics rankings. So like you have to race a certain amount of times and have some good performances to up your ranking. And so they've kind of gified it so it's not necessarily about you know the 12 fastest people uh will be running. And so um it's basically emphasizing I think a bit bit of consistency over the course of a of a season. And so um that's what I think a lot of the top athletes have to look forward to. But then other than that there's you know people trying you know to break world records uh this year. And so a lot of athletes putting, you know, a target date of they want to go after someone like Josh Kerr is going after the mile world record in just a couple days, but um there's other athletes like a key Hutchinson from from Great Britain has had her sight set on the women's 800 meter world record which is has it stood for a very long time since the >> should have been expuned a long time ago. It's a bogus record. And so, you know, it it's pretty cool, I think, that we're getting to that point now where um because of all of these things that have created marginal gains for the athletes that uh for that time period that before the athlete biological passport came in and and we were able to kind of crack down on on doping a bit better, a lot of those marks are are finally starting to to get erased. But, um it took it took a while. I I I brought this up a couple days ago that Malcolm a couple years ago had this idea of instead of, you know, keeping track of, you know, these all-time world records, um, decade records was I think like the direction that you you went because you can't necessarily go out if you're, you know, world athletics or, you know, the swimming, you know, federation and be like, we're gonna erase all these times because we think that they're, you know, sketchy or dodgy from the Eastern Block or, you know, there was that period where there were Chinese dopers. It's like because you open yourself up to a bunch of lawsuits probably from those countries, those athletes and um so you can't necessarily have this blanket eraser. Uh but it to to Malcolm's point, I think like if you would were to just keep track of like here's what the records have been since 2020 and we're going to keep track of that until 2030 and then we'll reset. Like it's I think a fun way that hasn't really >> There's a wrinkle you do. >> Mhm. You raise a bunch of money, like whatever, $50 million, and then suddenly 2029 becomes this crazy year because you say, "I'm going to give a million dollars to the best performer over the course of the previous decade." >> So, everyone's just like, and and the dollar figure is huge. So, you create this artificial frenzy like in 2029, everyone's like maxing out to do. It's a non-Olympic year. The last the last year, the decade's always a nolympic year. So you'd have this kind of track needs more of these kind of artificial >> well that also plays into I think we talked about this the last time you were on my podcast this this idea that it's not about a singular breakthrough performance. the real uh you know the real athletic champion is the person who can sustain high performance over and so that would that accounts for that you're valuing that >> the older you get the more you become biased in favor of body of work arguments [laughter] over peak performance arguments >> that's that's like you know to to your point uh so you look at someone like Sebastian Sawe who just broke you know the 2-hour marathon in London and he runs 159 um and you know a lot of people would see a time like that and it's the world record now. But is he really the greatest marathoner of all time? I don't think so. I think you still have to give that edge to someone like Elliot Kogi who was able to sustain the career that he had over the course of 10 years. So there's still like a long way for someone like Sebastian Sawe to go to achieve sort of like that level of two Olympic gold medals, many world marathon major titles. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that's like the perfect example of assessing someone over, you know, the course of their career versus just sort of the one-off performance. He could, you know, maybe never run faster again. Uh, but if he, you know, goes out and wins 10 more marathon majors and an Olympic gold medal in LA, then it's, you know, he could start to make the case. >> Who's the quintessential example of someone who gets over overlooked in peak performance, but uh would be a giant if we considered body of work. Is there a swimming example, for example, or a I don't know what the >> Well, I mean, I I think Phelps would still be up there because he sustained his high performance over so many Olympic. Uh >> I mean, >> that's a great that's a great >> in track. It would be Kajel Kaj Kelcha. >> Yeah. Yelcha who's like what he's been uh Mr. runner up so many times and like has run so many world class times and I think last year was the first time he got a world championship or he got a silver medal at the world championships on the track and then >> basically has been one of the best in the world in every distance from a mile through a marathon >> over the course >> it's not only longevity it's dexterity >> over the course of six seven eight years >> and he uh he's actually he's like really tall and he has this slightly odd you the way he runs you expect him to be wearing a top hat >> like it's a kind of like he's just he's kind of lanky and he has a kind of stiffness and it's just he's kind of a character I and I know nothing about I mean I just know that every time he runs a race doesn't matter what the length is or whether it's whether it's 2019 or 2026 he's in the mix >> so kind of he's >> a mile all the way to the marathon he's the I guess the joke now is that he's the only guy who's uh never run uh he's run a marathon but never run over two hours uh cuz he ran 159 and finished second in London. >> I know it's the craziest thing. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> Like just the idea that you would run under two hours and not win. >> It's just like who would have ever thought that, you know? >> So crazy. Um yeah, I've been trying to, you know, dive deep into to that race and it's been really cool. You know, I had the chance to chat with Sebastian Sawe just a couple weeks ago a bit and uh you know, the scheduled to talk to his coach, I think, but um yeah, it that that day just the stars align and you needed just sort of those two guys to be on and and have that, you know, head-to-head 40k, you know, 35k into the race where, you know, you're on world record pace, but someone's still breathing down your neck. I think that's ultimately I think what did push Sebastian Sawe to um you know not only just win but but get under two hours. I think the one side of the sub two that I'm kind of very interested to explore and it feels like a like a Alex Hutcherson or a Steve Magnus angle is just sort of everyone's talked about the shoes and you know the fueling and the pacing but I think that there was something subconscious that happened that not enough people are talking about is that they had this huge clock on the car ahead of them that showed them the projected finish time and also the pace of the last kilometer And psychologically I feel like something happens that you can't necessarily measure uh you know in that you know span of time where they looked at whatever their split was at 40k and suddenly like that clock showed you that you were now under 2hour pace >> and it's just sort of what happened in that moment is like you can't just take someone's blood or whatever it is to measure what it was but that adrenaline it's like what happened in that in his brain in that moment is something that, you know, you can't really measure in the shoes and all that kind of stuff. So, I got Saw's take, but it's Kajelia who, you know, I need to talk to still and figure out just sort of like he's someone who has famously loved closing long runs really hard and um to be in contention and to see something like that happen, what happened internally is just sort of uh um what my biggest curiosity is and how that race unfolded. Also knowing kilometer by kilometer how much you are uh ahead of or behind uh breaking the world record pace you can make those micro adjustments totally in real time. >> Yeah. Having that car you know there's drafting you know also that's happening there. You can't the rules say you can't get super close to it. We saw a half marathon world record not count because uh Jacob Pupimo the he ran 5647 or something like that. Just an insane time. uh but doesn't count to toward the record books because he was too close to the lead car and they said that you know that gave him too too much of an advantage from from drafting and so um in the marathon I think they were pretty you know dialed in to not have that be the case in in London as well. >> Yeah. Wow. >> Yeah. >> Well, this this conversation around valuing high performance over time is also sport dependent, right? like some sports and some specialties within sport are going to lend themselves to being able to perform at a high level over time versus other ones where it's just it's going to be less possible. So, you have to would have to take that into account as well, wouldn't you? >> What's an example of a sport where you can't do high performance over time? Um, is it not different to be able to compete at the highest level in the 100 meter dash uh over time versus the marathon or being a 200 mile ultra runner? Like wouldn't those >> Mhm. >> be treated differently or considered? >> I mean, we have seen examples of uh I mean a really a really good example would be um uh Johan Blake. >> Mhm. the Jamaican 100 meter runner who has is exactly what we're talking about has won very few international big big deal international competitions but has been one of the top two or three sprinters in the world for an astonishingly long time. Same with a >> but nobody's going to be 59 years old like they are in golf. >> No in the but remember there was a woman named Merlin. >> Yeah. uh Jamaican again. I mean repping Jamaica repeatedly here since it is greatest country in the world, [laughter] home to so many of my relatives. She ran she was world class into her late 30s. um and those kinds. So it's not impossible and those people are do you remember there was a this dates me even more there was a a a New Zealand marath marathoner from New Zealand named Jack Foster who was running 216 in the 70s was running 216 217 into his late 40s which back then was just astonishing because you could win flat win marathons at that pace. So, like I just think I think you're right. It's harder in certain fields, but that just makes me feel like like Johan Blake does no way gets enough love. I mean, sprinting is really sprinting is something where you would expect a real age related drop off, right? And it did not happen with him. And that that should mean we should say that he should be spoken of in the same breath as some of the greatest sprinters who ever lived. >> Top end speed gets eroded with age. uh whereas you can continue to develop your aerobic capacity and and compete at a higher at a high level on in an endurance type race. Yeah, >> I was just thinking about that because uh you know I think Noah Liles is someone who has been sort of like the de facto voice and face of of sprinting over the last like couple years because he kind of wanted to assume that mantle just he's someone who's wanted to push for you know track being a bit more popular and so he's one of those guys you either hate him or you love him and and that's kind of a a a good thing but I was thinking to to the point of longevity in the sprints he was a high school phenom back in 2016 finishing fourth at like the US Olympic trials. And so now, you know, he's trying to position himself. He's the reigning Olympic champion to potentially go into the Los Angeles Olympics, you know, as a favorite for for a gold medal. It's like it's a long time to stay at the top of the sprints. So, even what we're seeing now, like this current season, like he isn't racing a ton, but every time that he gets out there, he's still winning these races. And there are like these these younger folks coming up in the sprints, and he's managed to to hold them off. And so we're right now, I guess, like for the, you know, people listening or watching and who are curious about track and wanting to get into it in the leadup to the LA Olympics, uh, now is the time to really appreciate and enjoy a talent like Noel Isles because, uh, it's not a given that he's going to be at this level in 2 years. Uh, and so I had that just kind of like moment. He's like, even though this he's like in his late 20s, I was like, we got to appreciate what we're seeing right now because it's not it could it could change so quickly. That's the cool part to track too is that um there are these newer, younger faces who are just popping up left and right um who can easily supplant the Olympic champions and world champions that we saw in the last two years. >> Chris, you have a uh book coming out this fall. Yeah, >> next fall. Yeah. So, >> Oh, next fall. A whole other year, a whole other year you're waiting on it. >> Yeah, I guess like uh I handed it I turned in the manuscript back in June and so I think now we're going through a very long uh editing and revision phase. Uh it ended up I definitely went over my word count. Uh so uh but I'm excited for it. So it's the marathon book is the working title, although I kind of want the title to stick. Uh, and yeah, but it I think the one funny part to to it is that I did ask like the publishers at Penguin Random House is like, "What's the latest we can, you know, update some of these times and performances?" Like, I've got a couple chapters in here that reference world records and American Records. I'm like, "What are they going to be in summer 2027 before this thing goes to print?" So, um, that's the challenge, I guess, with with tackling a subject like the marathon. >> That's exciting, man. Congrats. Thank you. Please come back and and uh talk to me about it when the book comes out. >> I would love to. Yeah. >> Yeah. And in the meantime, uh 800 meter showdown between you guys. >> He's going to destroy me. >> Commit now. >> No. No. He's he you didn't you recently run 220 something >> for the 800. >> Here comes this sandbag. >> No, I can't. >> Well, so the fun part with is that at every World Championships they do um a media 800. Uh, and so if you have a credential, you can go and run on the same track that they're hosting the world championships at. And so over the years, you know, we do start to see, I think, a couple retired runners move into the media as photographers or videographers. So they they end up winning. And the winning time is is like 154, 152. Pretty legit. But, um, I've been to a couple world championships now. And so I wanted to run it last year in Tokyo. And, uh, training was going really, really well. I recruited Mark Kugan, one of the best mileer coaches in America to to coach me. And um and then one day I was moving into my new apartment and I was trying to move a dresser and I just dislocated my kneecap uh while trying to pull it in through the front door. And so uh I had time trial I think two two days before that and I did run 216. So I was looking for a big performance in Tokyo. I ended up just watching the race with a knee brace on. And so, um, yeah, I guess like I'm I'm in for 800 meter training, but um, I won't make it easy for Malcolm in a rematch. >> And you have something to prove. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> U, well, this was fun, guys. Thanks, man. >> Thank you so much. >> Yeah, I'd love to do do more of this kind of thing. I appreciate you guys. Great. >> Yeah. And uh I I I guess I don't need to prep for these [laughter] as long as I'm I have people like you. >> Don't do it that >> Don't do it. Preparation's overrated. >> Yeah. All right, guys. Thanks. Thank you. >> [music]