Louis Tomlinson: When The Police Knocked... I Just Knew! "The Room Was Cold That Day".

not really ever spoke about it in depth like this. Nothing prepares you in life for those kind of situations, but I felt like I'd failed at the time. That's the truth. And it's still something that I'm unpacking still to be honest. >> Louie, you spoke to your sister Lotty about this. Would you like to see it? >> Louis Tomlinson. >> I didn't spend my life as a young lad thinking I was going to be a singer. Like, I grew up in a working-class town. Seven of us living in a three bed house. Like my mom used to work a lot of nights. She had to play dad as well. So I would have to get my sisters ready for school. So people in Doncaster didn't get those opportunities. And then the X Factor came along. I auditioned three times. First time I failed. The second time I failed. And I remember thinking this is utterly crushing. Just so me. But she made me feel like I could do anything. So instead of running away, it was like I know I deserve it. I know I can't. So how do I relearn confidence and go for a third time? When I think about what happened in the preceding five or six years, it is crazy. >> Yeah. And the toughest thing to deal with is just the lack of normality and part of growing up in a working-class town. I have this like guilt for the success and money that I've earned and then personal work within the band I really really struggled with. >> But you co-wrote 15 platinum singles. >> But I wanted to do more. But mostly for me, I didn't realize the value of family time. And the more time I spent in the band, the more time I spent away from home, like two of my sisters who are identical twins. I've never told them this, but I wasn't confident enough to tell them apart. That shows just how little I was at home. >> And then it ends. >> And what was really strange was being 24 years old, realizing that the only way is down from it. >> Louis, there's so many things that happened in your life. How does a young man grieve? It's not really something I speak loads about about I'm I'm happy to because I cannot have that define me. >> The floor is yours. >> I see messages all the time in the comments section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you could do me a favor and double check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show in the trajectory it's on. So, please do double check if you've subscribed and uh thank you so much because in a strange way you are you're part of our history and you're on this journey with us and I appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you [Music] >> Louie to understand you. What is the earliest context that I need? >> Something that played a massive role for me in my life was the fact that maybe for the first four or five years of my life, it was just me and my mom. My first proper memories are just kind of having like really kind of nice and warm and really like emotional conversations with my mom. I think something that I'm kind of proud of is that I'm I'm I find it easy to be emotional and I kind of like talking about my feelings and I like getting into conversation with other people about that and that was definitely something that she instilled in me from from like a really young age and something that still definitely really helps me today especially you know navigating through the life like I have those kind of things and being able to talk about your emotions and your feelings like vitally important actually for the job that I do mentally you know >> so your your father wasn't around he your biical father left soon after you were born. >> Yeah, it's not really something I speak loads about, but I'm I'm happy to. Um, yeah, he wasn't he wasn't involved in my life at all. I've met him like three times ever. >> So, your your mother played, I guess, several roles in your life. >> Yeah, my mom was always really good at that. I think she realized the fact that my dad wasn't going to be around that she had to play dad as well. And she had this kind of mischievous instinct in my mom and definitely kind of inspired some of that. and and and part of that was her being her, but part of that was also trying to play that kind of dad role, you know, where you kind of lock about and encouraged to do kind of silly things that aren't going to hurt, you know. She was just she was just like I get emotional about she's just the best woman I ever knew. Definitely. And also just I feel so vitally like lucky to be able to have her as my mentor cuz she just everything that I look to in like friends and partners, etc. They're the kind of things that that she embodied really. >> And you had siblings? Yeah. Lots of them. >> Yeah. Lots of them. So when when I grew up, like kind of like the bulk of my childhood, there was seven of us living in a three bed house. I've got a little bit better at. But one thing I really have struggled with is being on my own. And and the more I've thought about that as I've got a bit older, it's because I just never had an opportunity to be when I was young. the when when you live in a house that you know it's threebedroom, there's seven people living in it, you you're you're literally all living on top of each other and I I loved that. Like it was like one of the best things that ever happened to me being an older brother. Like I just it's just it's like one of the definitions of my purpose I would say. I just like to look after people mine. So like being an older brother is like a role I feel like I was always supposed to do. And then I think even you know as we move through life and a couple of things got more challenging that role has become more prevalent. Definitely. >> I I was fortunate enough to speak to quite a few people that um have known you over the years. >> I heard that was cool. That was cool. >> Yeah. And I was uh I was just listening to some of the the recordings of those conversations like Nisam. >> Yeah. >> He's your childhood best friend. >> Yeah. >> Cal who's your photographer and videographer. >> Yeah. Love Cal >> throughout the years. Lotty, who's your younger sister, 6 years younger. >> Mhm. >> And it's interesting that one of the things they all came back to is that you you really haven't changed. >> I appreciate that. >> Yeah, but that's what they said. Your best friend from childhood said that's one of the most remarkable things that you're still made out of the same stuff and you've never turned around and thought you were anything more than you were back then when he knew you. >> And that's one thing I love about him, you know, as a friend. I've never said this to his face, but you know, he's he's a real guy. like uh you know he's never turned around us to us and never said oh I'm this big shock now or that ego you know that's never played and he's never been embarrassed of us you know he's he's a real guy >> it's at least 50% conscious that or at least it started out as that idea because I think when you enter a crazy situation and and and One Direction being like the pinnacle of that idea there's people around you that all of a sudden feel that that used to feel really really similar and all of a sudden they feel really different I'm not talking about day-to-day conversation but I'm talking about stuff that we can relate to, problems that I might have had that I might, you know, talk to them about. And I think that's quite an alienating feeling. Um, so instead of instead of kind of just submitting, I've always always resisted that. It's been really important to me. And those kind of things, you know, hearing that and hearing other people say that about me, that that does make me really proud cuz there's definitely, you know, it's definitely a lifestyle that can kind of sweep you away. But I think the other side of that and getting swept away, I don't really like the idea of what that might look like. And I think you need people around you that are going to tell you if you're being a dick, like vitally important in this job. Definitely. And those things I think I think when you're surrounded, you know, like a lot of successful people are, when you're surrounded only by success, it it it it breeds a funny kind of narrative to be respected from people in Doncaster like that. That means a lot to me. Definitely. So that's why another reason why, you know, I wouldn't drive through the streets of Doncaster in a [ __ ] Ferrari or whatever. >> And you went to school in Doncaster, Hayfields. >> Yeah, Hayfield's where I did most of my time. And then I failed my A levels and then went somewhere else for a year. >> You failed your A levels. >> I failed my A levels. Yes. That was the first time I'd ever ever got a real bollockin off my mom. A real real dressing down cuz she was really really fair, but there was something that she was kind of strict on with school work. And I remember getting in the car and she said, "You [ __ ] your life up." And she never swore. She never swore. And I remember I got goosebumps thinking about it there. I remember thinking, "Maybe I need to do something with my life." >> At at 15 years old, 15, 16 years old, you join a drama group. And I was watching actually just before you arrived, at 17 years old, you got the lead role in Greece. [Music] to >> the foundations were set and you ultimately at 18 years old decide to um go and audition. >> Yeah, that was the third time I auditioned for the X Factor. So, every year previous to that um so that would have made me 16 when I first auditioned. There's like three producer auditions and then you get to see Simon, you know, it's the it's the main one. Um and the first year first year I didn't get through any of them. the second year I got through the first round and then for a final time I said to myself well I'm going to give this one more shot because that was another thing at that age it's it's it's one thing saying you're resilient and I like I do think I am but it's a lot easier to be resilient at that age as well definitely >> it's really surprising that someone would go to the X Factor once be rejected essentially go again not not make it and then go again without having their self-esteem or their confidence knocked to the point where they go I'm not going to go through that again cuz every time you got to come home you got to tell your friends and family. It didn't work out. >> Yeah. Well, the first year I can remember it being utterly crushing. Like I'd not really had real rejection at that point. I hadn't really experienced that kind of thing. The second time I went was even more challenging cuz I went with what I'll describe as like the hottest girl at school at the time, right? So, she's also a singer. We got talking like months ago. Turns out she wants to audition for the X as well. I'm like, well, let's go together. Thinking this could be like a smart little play. She goes before me and I think at this point I feel like I was still in the queue and she showed me that she got through to the next round. It was like a gold ticket. I then didn't get through and then we got because I was with her, I was traveling with her. We then got ushered into a room of say 200 people and every single person in the room had a yes. I remember that being really really challenging. I'm just you're just surrounded by people that are dreaming. You know, they're really really excited about what does the next stage look like? And that created a bit more fire. I think it was like, okay, how do I get on the right side of this next year? How do I how do I be in this group of people next year? >> Did your mom play a role in you going for that third year? >> I can't remember specifically, but I I would say if I would have had any level of doubt, 100%. The musical that you just referenced that I did at school, I didn't want to go to that audition and she literally picked me up and drove me there and I was so thankful that she did. She was often very very good at, you know, pushy parents or or that's not good. She was never like that. She always had the the right amount of force, you know, um cuz sometimes you need that as a kid and especially actually even as adults, you know, in a situation where you're second guessing something, as soon as someone goes, "Go on, you can do it. You're okay." So, I think that definitely played a a big role in that. Even if I had just suggested that I wasn't going to go to this audition throughout the year, she would have been giving me a hundred different reasons to go. Now, not literally, but just from a confidence point of view, the way that she was talking to me, how she was just put me on this amazing pedestal. She made me feel like I could do anything. Definitely. And I think that that helps in those kind of situations going for it for a third time cuz my mom's saying I can do it. So, maybe I can. >> So, you deal with the audition where you sang make you feel my love. That was boot camp. So that was the second part of the audition. Um my first audition was a song called Hey There Delila. Did nothing for me like sonically. Like obviously now I can say this cuz I've got a bit more experience but as a young lad you're not thinking about any of these things. It was just I like that song. I'll sing that song. It was bad. It was really really bad. And to the point where like it still makes me deeply uncomfortable like listening to or watching that audition. The only thing I done like this is the school production of of Greece and that was to about 250 people over two nights and that felt like a [ __ ] mountain of people. Cut to then your live TV audition at the MEN in Manchester and there's 3,000 people in the audience. 3,000 people is a big gig for anyone to play like full stop. Like if you do 3,000 tickets you're doing really really well. So like it was it's the definition of being thrown at the deep end. And I think that's part of what they want, but it's not it's not going to yield the best results from everyone. Some people it is, but I just remember feeling like a [ __ ] deer in a headlight. Like really really shaky, like really really just felt really really uncomfortable. I was just I just wanted the ground to swallow me up. I'd never been in a situation where I was quite a confident young lad. So it wasn't very often I'd even been out of my comfort zone like that. And I just felt felt like a deer in the headlights. Definitely. Am I right in thinking that they probably had the idea to construct a band much sooner than >> they must have done? They must have done. Knowing knowing Simon, I will have had these conversations with him in the past, but can't remember now. But >> knowing Simon, yeah, I think you know he's like, right, he will have had that in his mind for at least for the year before. >> He loves a boy band as well. He's got a track record. >> Yeah. Yeah. They make him a lot of money. M. And so you come third on the X Factor as a as a band when you put together and then you signed at 19 years old to Simon Cow's Psycho Music. And it's crazy because when I think about you signing at 19 years old and I think about what happened in the preceding five or six years, I mean it is crazy. It's a mist. It's only now outside of being in One Direction that I actually have a little bit of a concept of what happened and even you know the the craziness of it because nobody has any context to it before it happens. So we we definitely we felt like things were going really really well but we also there will have been part of us especially in that first year of just assuming this is what you know success looks like. You know a successful artist does these things. And the first moment that I remember distinctly actually that that I realized that maybe this was bigger than like let's say like the average thing at the time, we got booked on a support gig with a u like a Disney band called Big Time Rush. And before that tour show, our manager, but our like senior manager, the kind of guy you only see, you know, like six gigs a year and it just happens to be Vegas and LA and all the best places in the world, you know. and he sat us down. It was like this dressing down. It was like, "Look, this is what you need to expect from a gig like this. Expect people to only know the the singles and even if they know the singles, you know, like that's that's a real win. They're not going to know the the words to the album tracks that it's going to be a very very different show to what you expected. So, we're all ready to go out fighting cuz we've not really had that at that point. We'd have most things that we' done we felt really confident doing. So, like we we we were kind of going on the back four. And then I can remember when we walked out on stage and I think we opened with something that wasn't a single and people were just locked in like massively locked in and it was really really [ __ ] loud in there. And I think that was a moment where I remember again I had this kind of side to me when I was younger. I was so excited to tell Richard who was our manager at the time. I was so excited to tell him post gig about how it actually went. Did you see it then? Cuz that was obviously not how it played out. And I remember feeling pretty smug about that. But I think on it was once I kind of got to bed that evening and I was kind of thinking I don't know I wasn't an overly deep thinker at that point but I was still thinking occasionally on a deep level. And I'm looking at this music manager and I'm thinking like this guy's like uber experienced like he's been in this situation countless times. So if he was to predict it wrong like maybe he did I'm like well maybe we maybe something is happening. >> How do you take care of yourself amongst that? Because you know one of the things I've learned from doing this podcast is I've learned so much about the brain. I've learned so much about dopamine and and and sleep and circadian rhythms and all these all these things. And so when I fit that into the context of what your life was like at an age where these neuroscientists tell me that the male brain is still growing. It's still forming itself. You're putting this tremendous external pressure on it. You're like shocking it every night. I remember when I interviewed Liam um your former bandmate him telling me that he would like he remembers walking out on stage in I think it was Dubai. There's like a hundred thousand people there and then thrown in, you probably remember the gig, like thrown into the the taxi, taken back to the hotel room and locked in there. And he was like, I remember him saying to me, was stage, car, hotel, locked. Stage, car, hotel, locked. >> [ __ ] >> I would say that the way that that we both handled it, me and Liam, was quite different. I think I I that's often why I I kind of had a good relationship with Zayn from early on because neither of us are kind of rule abiding and not in a way that's like utterly disruptive. It's just we have our own ideas, you know, and that at least alleviated a little bit of the pressure knowing that deep down if I wanted to just go and do something, I would I would genuinely just go and do it. Whereas I think Liam and the other boys actually to a degree there was there was an element of a little bit of fear I think you know and and also Liam had you know he'd worked so hard from the age of 14 to get there Liam's journey was a lot different to mine my I just felt like a happy golucky guy won the lottery you know like whereas Liam was very very precise and deliberate and he'd got there for all his hard work so I think we also came from a slightly different point of view another benefit that I I had during that time and I still have is I'm not a dweller. Like I I'm I'm an overthinker for sure, but I wouldn't say like I'm a dweller. So I wouldn't use this phrase in me very often, but like there was there's definitely an element of ignorance is bliss during that whole time. I find it so fascinating that you talk about this, this idea of you being having the the minerals or the personality where you would push back against the system a little bit because when I spoke to your former cameraman and videographer, >> he said that you you were the one in a group that stood up against the the label. >> So, you'd be the one to turn around to the record label and say, "We need a day off." >> Mhm. >> And it's interesting again cuz I I was one of the things I learned from doing this podcast is this idea of like learned helplessness and control and autonomy. Basically, TLDDR is it says that people who feel like they have control have much better physiological health outcomes. They have less stress. They're more insulated, better psychological states, less anxiety, less depression because they feel like they're in control of the situation. So, >> there's this crazy study that I was reading about when I was writing my last book about these these rats where they they learn that they can't do anything about the situation and they basically give up and they become submissive and they stop trying. And I think about this in the context of humans as well. You're you're from what your your videographer told me, Cam, you were clearly not that. You're clearly someone that would push against Simon Cow's record label as a young man. >> Yeah. And that's something I've had a few conversations with my friends, similar things um about this. And I'm not certain where that was like inspired by cuz it's brave, right, to to stare someone who at the time, at least in pop, was one of the most successful people in the music industry and say, "No, you've got it wrong. Here's me, an 18-year-old with no experience telling you, "You've got it wrong." I I think what gave me confidence in those ideas is even if it wasn't a collective voice, even if it was just my voice delivering the message, it was always with collective intention. It would always be for the good of all of us. Making those decisions now on my own are no, they're not quite as easy. >> There's there's a lot of different kind of things at play. But where and again it kind of comes from that big brother kind of role. Again, I was the oldest in the band. It was kind of my role in the band, I think, to to to kind of to do that. And I realized that by far I was the most opinionated in the band, definitely. So, I think I wanted to use that for good and not just chatting [ __ ] about someone on Twitter or something. Another important distinction about One Direction is this is not like disrespectful to Ed. Like, I appreciate I was in a boy band. I know that, right? But like if there would be like one genre of music that I would think might be the most naff, it's it's boy band. if you could call that a genre. So going into at this point going into One Direction when I was 18, you know, growing up in the north of England, it's like it's like real, it's kind of like snobby musically, you know, this like this like real music and then there's boy bands, you know? So having that kind of feeling going into it, it was that that was why it was easy to kind of push against some of these old school ideas cuz they were the ideas that I didn't the reasons I didn't like these bands is cuz they all looked the same and cuz they all felt very kind of PR pressed. You know, it was always a really interesting project for me to try and to to look at One Direction and think, well, how how could we make this a little cooler? I remember the the the the real turning point in One Direction was when we put up the pre-order for our first single, What Makes You Beautiful. I can't remember the number of how much we sold that week, but we broke some record, right, the pre-order and we got told this and we not released any music at this point. And I remember thinking that's fascinating because they don't know what it's going to sound like yet, but they're invested. That felt like power really early on. And it also felt like that we could rewrite the rule book because people were invested in us as much if not more than the music. I think that's fair to say. >> Was there a part in the the evolution in the journey of One Direction where you had that moment where you go there's elements of my life that I love that I no longer have access to because of this success? >> I would say that it's more gradual than that really. you know, you you start to you start to lose some of your own independence to a degree. And then I think also the age I was, right? So like I was 18 when I first joined the band. And I always say this, that year of my life before I auditioned for the XFactor, at least up to those 18 years was the best year of my life. You know, you've got independence at that point. I was driving. You could go out. like it was just it was it was so fascinating socially. There's always something to do. So to leave that behind was quite gutting actually and that took me a second to get used to at first. Now I always felt incredibly grateful and really excited every time I was doing something with One Direction. But any kind of time for reflection I was I was really really missing home. Like me and Zayn would when we were younger we had countless conversations of like you know should we just pack it in? Should we just call it a day? Why? >> Because you you you feel alienated. You've got you you you you are living this lifestyle that and there's a million different reasons, right? But like the fame thing is really difficult and mostly for me it was about being alienated and I can't like any of my life experience was now not so relevant to some of my friends you know and I think that also I have this I think this is part of growing up in a working class working workingass town but I have this like guilt for the success and money that that that I've earned as well and I think that also is kind of part of the same thing I think I think for it's kind of like two different things. The fame thing I'll never I'll never be okay with. Like if I like, of of course every artist says this, but if I could just do the music, you know, be amazing. That would be amazing. I suppose I could on a on a lower level, but I wouldn't get the same rush that I do. I think it's almost Yeah, it's almost everything else that that comes with that. It's interesting when someone says they they felt isolated, which is something I've heard a lot from people who've had great public success where they've got a big fan base because we think of like isolation as not being around people. But I guess isolation in the context you describe it is more about connecting to people, relatability. >> Yeah. But it's also like like the metaphor would be like what's that really famous crossing in Japan? If you took a drone shot and you pulled right out from that and you would just become a little dot amongst the noise sometimes. That's kind of how it feels because also it's not the it's not the real world. You know, the the the even in the way that people perceive you, it's not the real world. The first moment that One Direction got the first big pay packet was a merchandise deal that we got and we always did really good merch. >> How old were you? >> 19. That was the first kind of moment where I I I felt really really excited and so I rang my mom straight away and you know told her about it like I always would and she was really excited for me and obviously you know there's she's just proud that's it and then I remembered the feeling of but who else do I tell now cuz like do I call up Nisam and tell him well he'll he'll he'll be into that and he'll be really proud of me but bear in mind he's just seen me on the X Factor and this is another thing I realized about people is they think if you're successful then everything is just you know successful and that's how it goes. So I think you know if I call if I I didn't call Nazam but if I had called him he probably would have been really nice but in his head would he shove his shoulders like well obviously you know things are going really well for you. So I think there's definitely a lack of like understanding there rightly so. There's also a a gill, you know, especially at that age. People like life's really really expensive at that age. People are like up to their eyes and student loans. It was only about 2 years ago that I put all the plaques up on my wall at home and my awards like the Brit awards and stuff that I got in the past from the band. They still annoy me even now in my lounge because like if I'm in having a conversation with someone, I don't even really want like I don't I want to just be me. I don't want to be that guy that won those awards. Like we can be and we can conversate like that, but truthfully like if someone if Nisam came over to my house for like a chat and a coffee, I would hate that the conversation might end up then gravitating to me or my success. It's much more about just what those uh relationships and conversations look like in the real world. That's what I'm craving is that real normality. All I want is to just be on an even playing field with everyone in any kind of conversation. I think that was the toughest thing to deal with is just the the lack of normality in every sense of the word. >> How does things like alcohol play into this? Because you're you're living a crazy crazy life where your dopamine and your your brain is being tested in all different ways. I remember Liam saying to me, this is really when he started to have a problem with alcohol in the early years of the band, and he I'll never forget it, him talking to me about the mini bar in the room. >> Like one of the things I didn't realize is, okay, you've just been out on stage in front of 100,000 people, then you're back in a hotel room with a mini bar. >> I feel the pull from alcohol and I definitely drank quite a bit when I was when I was in the band. But I think an important distinction post show would be I'd smoke my weed. I'd go back to my tour bus and I'd go and smoke me weed and Zane would would smoke with me too. I hope he doesn't mind me saying that. I'm sure he won't. And that was great. And actually like you know people do things for different reasons and that was my vice. That was my choice. Now the reason why that kind of suited my brain at that time was I've just had all this noise in my head. I've just had this crazy experience on stage and that's the noise that you kind of need to quieten down sometimes. So what we would do is we'd get back on the tour bus, we'd play Call of Duty zombies, we'd smoke our weed, and like that's all we'd think about and that's all we'd do. And then we'd get into cliche stoner chats of deep conversation, probably UFOs, you know, all that kind of [ __ ] And as as as dafted as that might look and feel, it it again, it's our normality. It's creating the normality on tour. It's a version of what our friends were doing back home as well. But also it just it it it was such a lovely way to kind of debrief from those moments away from the manicness. You've just got this kind of really subdued nice environment. The juxosition actually felt quite nice. >> If you could go back to the day that you signed the contract with Psycho, what is the advice that 33y old Louie would give 18 19year-old Louie? >> Such a that is a really really big question. I I I think I would just I think I would say to be be be confident in the earlier years because the older I get, the more I realize most people in their earlier years of doing said thing are to a degree faking it. And I think for a long time I was just thinking, well, you know, I didn't spend my life as a young lad thinking I was going to be a singer, so I'm playing catchup and all of those things. And listen, I'm also there's another thing I'm I'm more than comfortable enough to say. I'm not the best singer in the world. I'm okay with that, right? But like there was definitely a time where those things were challenging as a young lad. And I think I would just cut myself a bit of slack as a young lad because it's been a lot of my defiance and decision making that's got me to where I've got and that should give me confidence. So I think I think as a young lad you I I did really just felt like a deer in a headlights and I didn't really have any kind of context what was going on. And I think when I'm talking about these things, I'm not talking about uh no, we're not going to do this Disney performance because I don't think it looks good on the for One Direction. I'm talking about more like introspective uh personal worth within the band or those kind of things. I really really struggled with that as a young lad big time. So I would I would say I would give myself a bit more credit there. >> You really struggled with that? >> I found it um I found it really tough. So like like as I said before like I was the kid who won the lottery. Like I I sang my first audition um for the X Factor. Didn't feel like I did a good job. Was really surprised that I got the three yeses. Now that was maybe 4 months before the first edition's air. So I've told everyone at this point obviously I'm in a band. I'm on the X Factor. And I have told anyone that will listen. Like everyone. And actually me and neither me nor Nile got any TV time on our on our audition. So the irony is we get put in this band but people have no idea who we are. Like there's no context for the viewers to actually see this and and actually really care. I felt like I was playing catcher from that moment in I remember this like really like real na thing typical X Factor thing. We went filming for the judges houses which is the stage. You have the auditions, then boot camp, judges houses, live shows. And we weren't filming for judges houses. And I was already questioning. I wasn't really singing at all. We had not had like any individual thing to sing. It was all like harmony stuff. And I got stung by a sea urchin, right? Random story. My foot blew up like an elephant. And we had to film all this. You know what X Factor is like, right? We had to film all this Jeopardy. This like how will how will the boys audition without Louisie? It was awful. It was awful because there was no credibility to that statement. The boys could have auditioned straight away. At that point, I was doing a lower harmony and I don't I would be shocked if anyone could even hear me in the mix at that point. So, that was really challenging where, you know, I'm already starting to feel those things and then you get something like that that's quite literal and they're and they're trying to sell this Jeopardy. And I remember thinking, oh, like I it just it really I wanted to do more. I just didn't know how to do that. Again, there's no context. I thought I was a good singer before I went on the X-Factor. Then I get through the audition, they put me through, and I'm like, "Okay, well, I must be all right." Then they don't show the TV audition. You're like, "Oh, maybe that's like a personality thing or I don't know, maybe it is my voice." And there's a lot of there's there's there's a lot of especially as a young lad in this situation, there's a lot of unanswered questions. >> Did you ever ask those questions? >> Did I ever ask him why I was in that band? No. I would love to, though. I would have loved to, but do you know why I wouldn't would never with him? Simon would probably he would he would Simon was always very brilliant at making me feel uh like worthy in the band. But but as you said before, like I was often a a voice between the band and the label. He was the label. Well, he put me on side and that's a smart move, isn't it? One thing he would always do, Steven, is he would always say my name. Now, when you're a 19-year-old lad and Simon Cow says, "Do you know what the thing is about that idea, Louie? You are empowered." Now, we like people using our names. Now, imagine that Simon Cow and you're 19 years old. There is a spell that comes with that and there's a power that comes with that. And I think I think for a long time I kind of I kind of fell for all those kind of ideas. Now, I think Simon again is an interesting person. He is a brilliant businessman. Now, I learned a lot from him. I I I still deeply respect him and I was I was I was in awe of him as a young lad. I just I was I love to be around him. I love to listen to him make decisions and and all of that. And I thought he was he was definitely brilliant at that time. He just he built me up on a pedestal to the point where I thought that it would actually have a realworld meaning, not just a thanks darling kind of vibe. >> When did you realize that it didn't? When I joined Psycho on my own, >> so this is after the band, you sign of sorry. So the band the band split up and uh now I didn't have my pick of record labels. It was never like that. But even if I had I could have had 10 offers on the table. Let's just assume they're all the same money. >> I would have I would have picked Simon always because like again a little bit like the north of England, loyalty is like a a really important currency. It really is in these kind of you know working-class places. was really really vital and I think like for me it was that always meant a lot to me. So I thought well if I'm I'd heard that some of the other boys were thinking about going to other labels which was they were right to and I found out I was the only one that was going to stay with him and that just motivated me more. So all the other boys went and joined different record labels some of them not even within labels that were in Sony which Psycho was part of. And I remember thinking oh wow this is like it's amazing for me actually that all the boys have done that cuz like look how good this makes me look to Simon. I look really loyal and and and and like some of it was like deliberate, but mostly that's just how I am as a person. Like I I would rather just keep the happy family kind of vibe that that that suits me. >> One of the um one of the things people don't talk about is the impact that your success has on everyone else back here in Doncaster, including including your mom. I spoke to your sister Lotty, one of my team did and I was listening to the recordings and she said that it was especially hard for your mom because you leave home suddenly at 18 years old and from everything you've described, you were more than just a kid. You were in some respects a partner in raising the the family >> and best mates as well, man. Yeah, definitely. >> Did she ever speak to you about the impact it had on her all of that? That's something that I can remember really clearly. And she used to do the uh university analogy. And she used to say, "I knew you were going to leave home at some point, but I had at least a time scale to that. I could like work towards in my head, okay, you know, in 3 months time he's going to leave for uni and that's that." One Direction never happened like that. You know, we it all ran away with itself. So, I think it felt like we all blinked and before we knew it, I was no longer living at home. So, my mom had no time to even grieve that idea of like, and just for context, I mentioned this in I made a like a film and documentary, and it kind of sums up me and my mom's relationship perfectly. The first person I told when I lost my virginity was my mom. Like, I was as if as if I was telling like one of my lad mates, I was just and I wasn't telling her for any other reason other than to show off and be like, "Guess what happened tonight." And that that we we definitely had that kind of energy together, you know? We we we we I always always saw her more as a best friend than anything else. And especially cuz I was her first. She had me when she was 19. We spent the first few years together without a male role model. So it was a little deeper than your average, you know, son and and and mother situation. So I think it really hit me like a ton of bricks. If I had my time again, I would have been more present and aware of those kind of ideas. And I actually, here's a story. Actually, I don't I've never told Daisy and Phoebe this. Daisy and Phoebe are two of my sisters who are identical twins. And they're about four or five years younger than Lotty, so they're about 21. Now, I could always tell them apart perfectly, but they look utterly identical, these two, especially when they were really young. And I can remember the more time I spent at the band, the more time I spent away from home, I wasn't confident enough to use their name to them. you know, it would be always like, "Oh, babe," or like, you know, something that way I wouldn't have to mention the name because I wasn't certain who was who. These are two sisters that I spent my life with and grew up with, but I think shows just how little I was at home. And if my mom my mom would come out to see me, which was great, but other, you know, the kids were at school and stuff like that. So there was a long time for those out of those 5 years we're in the band a long time spent not spending enough time with family and that I would say that is that was 85% the job and the situation and one direction and stuff and then 15% me too like I could definitely have done more like that but you know it when you when you're living a life like we did in One Direction free time is so competitive and when you're young you're not smart enough to realize the value of this family type. >> And you were on an absolute rocket ship >> up until you're sort of you must mean what sort of 23 24 years old when the band origin announces that it's breaking apart in March that year. Zayn says he wants to leave to have a normal 22y old's life which shocked the world. >> Um how do you reflect on Zayn's decision now? Cuz you were you pissed off at the time that he was breaking things up or >> I was fum. I was again it it's not something we've discussed enough yet but um me and saying I mean but again it comes back to like loyalty for me and I just selfishly I'd wished he'd had a conversation with me first cuz me and Zayn I'd like to think that he would say this too. I think he would. There was times where like we were like let's put it like this is a good way of describing it. Uh on the last tour that Zayn did this, we always said we would never be this band. The type of band that would have all their own individual dressing rooms. Well, sometimes when you've got a lot of guests and stuff, it can be challenging, but we always said we wouldn't be that band. And on the last tour, Zayn did, Harry had his own dressing room, Liam did, Nile did, and me and Zayn shared. So, I think I kind of like testament of of the relationship. So, I felt a little bit hard done by. I felt like like not like throw these boys under the bus, but let me know. But I just a little bit I I I I I thought that we had a relationship where he could have had that conversation with me. In reflection, and he hasn't told me this, we'll see when I chat to him about it, but I think if he told me, I would have tried I would have tried to tell him to stay. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why he didn't, cuz he know he knew I was always very opinionated. >> So, how did you find out? That evening, um, the night before we found out, everything was normal. We're in the hotel room. We were somewhere, I don't know where, somewhere in the world, maybe where weed isn't legal, but we were having a joint. And everything was normal, you know, and and then I think he maybe left at like 11:00. He was cool. Wasn't like in a bad mood or anything like that, you know. Good night, lad. And then the next morning I woke up, we had a shoot with like Coca-Cola for some sponsor thing. and we found out that he wasn't coming. Now, like I had this in me too, but like Zayn was quite prolific for it. Like this wasn't out the ordinary. Like if Zayn I always rated him for it. If he didn't want to do something like he he literally wouldn't do it. Like you name the thing, it doesn't matter. He just he just if he does it doesn't if it's not right for him then he won't do it. So I think well then that's probably why he left the band you know and that's what I admire about him because if I was in his same situation I would have probably put six plasters on it just to hope that we can stay playing happy families you know I want to know if he regrets it not in the way that like he his own personal success has been incredibly successful and he's done really really well like that but he must miss it like he must do because I know Zayn really well and Zayn has a bit of the kind of energy I do in such a way that sometimes this whole job can just be a little bit fussy. It's just a bit fussy in general, you know, just there's just a lot going on like now when you're in a band, you can share that wealth. It's like it's, you know, say they say you're a sat an interview you're not enjoying. You just kind of shut up a little bit and let someone else pick up the pieces and they'll do that role. We could share the things that we didn't like to do as much. There must definitely be times that that he he misses the comfort of that for sure. But it's not it's kind of like the elephant in the room to be honest. It's not I've met up with him a couple of times recently, but it's not often something we'll discourse. But there'll be a time for that for sure. I would like to have those conversations with them. But it crushed me, man. It absolutely crushed me. I was I was devastated because it felt like, oh, is this the beginning of the end of the band? But then also, I'm like like this is like my best mate in the band at the time. So, it was I'd lost a friend and someone in the band. It's >> funny. Yeah. You know, I've heard you say that you didn't you weren't prepared for the success of One Direction, but you also weren't prepared for the end of One Direction. >> Oh, no. >> And you describe it as hitting you like a ton of bricks. >> Yeah. It was awful. It wasn't until after the event that I realized that I actually computed all these feelings, but it was like I was straight grieving for it. That was grieving the band. I'm someone who unfortunately has a little bit of experience in grief and all al allbeit it felt different but it was a version of the same thing. It was something that I really wanted that I couldn't have anymore. I think like anything like that you know like if you're like a I'm a glass half full kind of guy. So like I I felt the wheels start to turn in motion like that but you're looking the other way you're like no it's fine it's not going to play out like that. It's never going to come to that whatever. And then we had a meeting one day and and and and it did. >> What happens in that meeting? What what's said? Is it Simon saying something? Is it the boys? Is it representatives? >> It was us boys, which was great. Um, always how it should be like that, obviously. But I think it almost might as well have been representatives. What's really fascinating is those real serious moments. We wouldn't have a lot of them in One Direction. We were just kind of going with the flow and really happy, you know, for each other and stuff like that. But I think those kind of moments where you have to be selfish, it was an atmosphere that I never really felt in the band because normally, like I said, we're arms in arm in- arms. It's all this camaraderie. And then all of a sudden, you get someone thinking more independently and more for themsel, which by the way, they have every right to do, of course. But it just felt the room felt cold that day. I can remember that in particular. There was it was I'm trying to find the right metaphor for it, but it was it was something where these are all the same faces that I'd seen every single day, but I'd never quite felt an energy like that in the room. There was like a there was there was this emptiness. And I think probably because we knew we all knew collectively where it was going, you know, and that's probably some friction between those ideas. The thing that really bothered me was and this again is naive was so naive at the time but I was adamant on having some kind of indication of because it was it was it was originally said as what's that [ __ ] word we've used a million times hiatus. >> Yeah. >> Which by the way is just such a cringy word. So it was originally pitched as that. So I was thinking I remember saying like well if I'm going to try and do some stuff on my own and at this point I didn't even know what I was going to do. I was like it' be good to know how long this break's going to be for. So let's speculate a year, two years, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years. I never really got an answer to that question, which I understand now because truthfully, I don't think the people or person involved was brave enough to answer that question deep down. I think they probably knew the reality and that's why it was tough. >> And does Simon try and persuade you back into the band? Let me say that by this point, and I I I' I'd say Simon was aware of this, but maybe not quite so aware, because we're a band, after about two years of One Direction, nobody absolutely nobody could tell us [ __ ] Now, we wouldn't we were nice boys. We were never like rude or anything like that, but like so like if Simon had like it just we didn't have that. It wasn't. He might have had that relationship prior like back in the ' 90s when all that stuff was kind of prevalent, but I think we we'd always had our own kind of confidence like that. So, it he was never involved in those kind of decision-m. In fact, he was smart enough to realize that that would rub us up the wrong way. >> Makes sense. >> And then it ends and uh your life goes from absolutely crazy to less crazy. >> Yeah. It's something it's still something that I'm unpacking still to be honest and still trying to work out all of those kind of things. I remember something I spoke about before, but Julian Banetta, who is a producer who worked on a lot of the One Direction stuff, we had a great relationship with him, really cool guy. We had this crazy night at um it was like some kind of Billboard Awards in Vegas. Julian, he pulled me aside and he said, and it was like really, it's funny because he's not really like this heavy, but it was a real heavy statement. Obviously, I had a few vocar red balls or something and he was like, "Where do we go from here?" Now, by the way, the we upset me a little bit. It's like a I understand that and we are all in this together, but that question is a hell of a lot deeper for me than it is you. I understand. I get it. But at the same time, you're probably and what he did end up doing is carrying on doing what he did. And I still don't really know the answer to that question. And I still it's in fact maybe I don't think you can. I think a lot of people's not everyone's but most people's natural trajectory of let's just call it success. I could make a pantic argument for it not being specifically that. But you know they have a kind of linear journey. They that the older they get, the more successful that they get. What was really strange was being 24 years old and realizing that the only way is down from it. like there there is no alternative reality where I at least keep up or supersede. No way. There was no chance of that. And I wasn't that wasn't you know it was very obvious. It was very obvious to anyone around it. And still is something that is challenging definitely cuz you've had a look behind the curtain. You know you know now these those some of the things that maybe I had then that I don't have now. I, you know, I'm not I'm not overly pressed for like a I don't know, like a billboard for the album on uh in LA or here in New York. Like I don't get those kind of opportunities anymore. Does do I lose any sleep over it? No. No, not really. But I think the feeling in general of I have to work really hard to be to to compete at the level I do. Like that is just a fact. Like I just got a number one record and the last record on Faith in the Future. Never in a million years, never in a million years when I started my solo career did I ever think that I would be getting a number one record. It's a testament to my fans, testament to the record, the producers, etc. But I've always had to work on my own anyway, I've always felt like I've had to work really, really hard just to kind of keep my head above water. Now, the reality of that statement is, and I realize that as I say it out loud, my version of head out of water or head above water is very different to a lot of people cuz from 18 to 24, that whole landscape looked very very different. And that's why I've always found it quite unrealistic to like not like to not compare the two. I I completely agree with that cuz they you cannot compare them. The two being One Direction and my own solo career, but it's something that you can't ignore. I do this I do a cover. stupid of me to call it a cover. I realized how funny that is. When I do a One Direction song, I call it a cover, which is really ironic. But I do night changes on my tour show. And I can remember this one show in particular, I think it was like a 5,000 capacity uh room. And I think maybe we'd done like 1,200 tickets, which you know is okay. That's all right. But when you're singing night changes at a gig like that, when you can vividly and vi and visually remember singing night changes like that at say Wembley Stadium and you're literally singing Look how fast the night changes and you're looking out to this sparse room. It's like a brutal kind of poetry. And that's the point about it being unrealistic >> is >> I could I could be the most and I am I could be the most glass half full guy in the world, but life is gonna constantly challenge me like that. Definitely because that was the pinnacle. >> Yeah. I um Yeah. I mean it's it's it's very very human. Obviously the example and scenario you're talking about is one no one no one can understand, >> but it's the comparison is how how we work. It's how we understand the value of things. M >> and as you say going to the the top of Mount Everest at 24 means that you're always going to have some kind of sort of even unconscious comparison to to everything thereafter. Do you what do you do about that? Do you have to use a different yard stick of measurement? Do you >> I I try to I try to >> These are words, aren't they? Do you know what I mean? >> That's it being honest. >> And some days I I live by it. Some days I live by it definitely. I I wrote something on my social media probably like four or five years ago now, but it was on Instagram, I think, and about my interpretation of the word success because I'd spent a long time and I only knew through the lens of One Direction. And I think that's a constant battle. It's a constant conversation with myself internally that I can measure my own success in a different way. It doesn't have to be a numbers game, you know, in terms of like fulfillment, for example, and like, you know, going doing like this latest record that I've just written, like I feel really really good about it. There's been an element of me kind of swimming against the tide a little bit to this point. It's like that the feeling of fulfillment is like that's that's legit. >> Did you have conversations with your your former band mates about how they were coping with these all different? Uh to be honest, that would only happen me and Liam. Um like between the other boys, like not that it's not like emotional cuz like it is and it's it's definitely deeper than surface level, but it it's it's more it's more I would struggle to text the other boys as much. me just I would love to hang out with him in person like that but I just there's an element of it feeling >> it's just all a bit small talk you know like which is lovely and it's nice and it's nice to catch up like that but me and Liam would always speak on a much more deep level because and I like he definitely he I felt bad saying this cuz feel arrogant but I shouldn't I I wanted to look I wanted to look after him definitely Liam like that that was that was like a role I feel like I was there to play and like he definitely, you know, often his uh the way he would like perceive certain parts of his life, I I would be really inspired by like he was someone who really brave at times which like contrary to sometimes what he put out but really really brave like he would ask anyone anything with a smile and like you know he he had a really good way about him like that. I would say he was the closest to being my brother. Love him deeply. could spend hours and hours and hours with him, but there was an element of always checking in and just making sure that like he's cool like that. Did you worry about him? >> Always. Always. Yeah. Cuz because I knew he was a little misunderstood. Uh but also, you know, like interestingly the record when when when you're starting out as a solo artist, the parallels of people who know themselves made the best records. Definitely. So like if you're still unpacking all that information of who you are as a person, as an adult, which we all were post One Direction, it's it's near impossible to point and go, "This is who I want to be as an artist." is cuz essentially it's just a metaphor for who you are as a person or at least that you know the best stuff is Liam will be someone who candidly I could say to him really honestly like bro [ __ ] hell like I miss being in the band and we could like have a really honest conversation like that whereas and I I I I don't mean this in a in a in any kind of way but if I'd said that to any of the boys I'd be worried that they might think oh things aren't going well in his solo life you know whereas Liam I never I never had to worry about those things. It was It was It was like brothers like that. >> He wore his heart on his sleeve, didn't he? So you Liam was Liam. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I just It's really fresh that it's a really really cool way of living cuz we all say even like I would like to say I wear my heart, my sleeve, but you know, there's still 10% of me. It's God in the right places. He certainly had his his way of being. I like to >> I do like as we were saying I do wonder if that made him slightly more susceptible to um the pressures because sometimes you know if you can if you can put on a second face >> if you can yeah what's helped me in this job and there's no truer time that that kind of shows itself it's me as a parent is there is a real distinction. This is me there is me at work and there is me not at work basically. So either being a parent or being a a friend or a partner or whatever. That's always helped me to have that kind of distinction of, you know, when I'm dad to Freddy, I'm full-time dad and I'm not a singer, you know, and I'm and any of that world outside does not does not really matter. It's not relevant to me as a father, which it isn't. >> Did I ever tell you about the uh data breach that we had at my previous company? >> Yeah, I remember hearing about that, >> which which um was a total nightmare. So, I'm glad that we now use one password. What actually is it, Steve? >> It's called um One Password, and they're the sponsor of the podcast now. And they have this feature called Enterprise Password Manager, which means that if any of our passwords across the team are compromised or leaked, then it notifies us. And obviously, if that were to be the case, we're at huge risk across the entire team. Through one password EPM, you can also store all of your sensitive information. And it's helping us to move closer towards pass keys, which means eventually everybody will be able to log in to pretty much everything without ever having to put a password in. >> Sounds like a good addition. 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Yeah, quite the pose with the hands in the pockets. It's much more nonchalant than I would have actually been feeling. I mean, these ones are all the the band photos. I mean, it's just [ __ ] unbelievable. Like, looking at some of the uh crowds and these images is insanity. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. This my my mom took this picture. This was the first picture ever taken of us. My mom took this. >> You look super young. >> Yeah. Yeah. That again. Yeah. So, I was the oldest 18. Then you got the Harry, Liam, and now they were 16, saying 17. >> And of course, you're >> Yeah. I love that picture. I love that picture. It kind of really sums up mine and Liam's relationship. I love it. I love it. He will have been telling me a joke that I didn't think was like hilarious at the time. So, I'll be giving him that kind of face and then probably about an hour later, I would have laughed to myself about it. >> And I have these these beautiful pictures of your beautiful mother. >> Oh, yeah. They're lovely. I love this one. I love this one. This is cute. Real cute. Yeah. Yeah, I got I got the very similar picture to this uh by me bedside table at home in my bedroom >> about a year after you leave One Direction. The uh your your mother passes away from leukemia. Thinking about the timing of all these events that thinking about the the shock of being thrown into a very different life, one without the boy band around you and then your mother getting leukemia, which if people don't know is the 12th most common form of cancer. She she passes away at age 42. the timing of all these things is is quite unthinkable to me because there's so much transition in your life. Um I'm just terribly sorry. I'm just I you know I appreciate you saying that. >> You know I don't really have anything else to say other than just understanding what she meant to you and the role she had in your life. I'm terribly sorry. You know >> there was definitely as you said the timing obviously there's no good time for anything like this but I think the timing that's what created a bit of it didn't last too long. I want to say maybe six months but of like true like resentment for the world like real resentment feeling really hard done by you know it's the kind of one thing I remember about grief when you're in the midst of it you could stub your toe right and something like that is utterly unjust now that's something you might have done say none of this ever happened you stub your toe it'd be annoying but you just get over it little things like that are really really struggled with when I when I was grieving. So, it's things that should work a certain way that don't. There's a zip on my jacket that won't quite go all the way up. Real micro non-important little things, but I think because of the weight of the stuff that had happened, there was just yeah, there was a moment in my life, as I said, for about 6 months where it just felt like I couldn't win. In fact, I could only lose. So, that's where even just stubbing your toe, you another [ __ ] thing. Now it it sounds stupid to say but once you're met with these when you're met with that kind of mindset of feeling hard done by the smallest things definitely can amplify that. >> When did you hear that she was sick? >> I got friendly with a footballer called Jamie Vardy and he'd invited me to his wedding. So, I was I was at the wedding and now it it was like the party afterwards and it was like 10:00 p.m. At this point, I'd already had quite a few vodka red balls, which was not ideal for the the weight of the conversation. Uh, my mom called me. I was I was stood outside. It wouldn't been out the ordinary for my mom to call me, so I wasn't worried or anything like that. She called me like most days, if not every day. And then she told me, and you know like what it's like anything like this in life when when you hear something like that carries any kind of weight, like the first 10 thoughts are either it can't be true, maybe she's got it wrong, maybe the doctors have got it wrong, just all these stages of denial of before actually, you know, even embracing the thought. It wasn't really, it wasn't kind of really lighting. It didn't even feel like it was like a cry for help at the time, but that night I got absolutely battered. I got I got really really drunk. Um that there'll be nights where, you know, and there has been nights in the past where I'll have a little bit too much to drink. Um more from not knowing me limit, but in this kind of situation, it's not something I ever really use drink for to be honest, but I just that was I felt the only way just to completely escape that moment in that in that that night. What I found really challenging during even that first conversation with her about it was I still wanted to inspire hope. I still wanted to like cuz she was really hopeful and she was like so I was trying to have this like genuine worry that any son would. But I also was trying to shield a bit in my mom from that. I didn't want her to, you know, feel like she'd upset me or, you know, even though obviously it wasn't her choice. But I can remember that idea of really trying to I would be real with my mom about how I was feeling, but there were times when I wouldn't be cuz I wouldn't want her to feel guilty. >> So, she told you over the phone that she'd had a diagnosis. >> Yes. Yeah. She told me that she had leukemia. My first answer was I don't know where, again, this is just like the definition of denial. My first answer um word for word was, "Oh, that's the good one to get though, right?" Meaning that has the most survival rate. Um, and bless her, she has to be like, "No, not really." >> And how long was it from that phone call till to till her passing? >> I I have no idea. I could not I I want my guess would be 18 months. I think it might have been quicker than that. Um, the anniversary of her death, I get texts all the time and whenever the anniversary is and someone will say, "Thinking of you today." And it's only at that point that I know that that's the day >> because I just it's deleted from my brain. >> She she passes. Um because you don't have a your biological father isn't around. You're very much at that point, you know, you're the in some respects you're the father of lots of siblings >> cuz you're you're your big brother. Um you you went out on stage three days after her death for an XFactor performance. Um, from what I understand from from Lotty, she very much pushed you to do that before she passed away and told you that you you you needed to do that performance. I'll never forget the X Factor final performance that he did with Steve Aayoki when my mom had only passed away like a couple of days before, which I still can't believe he even, you know, had the strength to do. But my mom was just so proud of him and especially him starting his solo career. Even in like her final days, she was like, "If I don't make it, I still want you to do this performance." And when she did pass, we were like, "There's no way." No one would have expected him to do it. But he wanted to do it for her. >> And I knew I knew exactly what that was. I knew why she was telling me. She was telling me because she would have hated something that she something that had happened to her affect my career and my life as a person. I would do it again for her. That's I don't think I'll ever have a more challenging time in me life than those three and a half minutes on stage. I did it only for her. I didn't I didn't It's not something I look back on and go I'm really proud that I am proud that I did that, but that that you almost say those kind of things when you want to do something, right? I'm really proud that I did that. I that wasn't it felt like it was taken out of my hands. I didn't want her to have that gill, but it was the last thing in the world I wanted to do. Like obviously like I just it was it was horrible. And also the song alluded to the song was called Just Hold On. It's weird how empowering those moments are. I I can sit here now and comfortably say that the chance now obviously they could, but the chances of my life being as dark as it was in those 3 minutes alone, like I would be desperately unlucky to ever be in a situation like that again where it was where I was so young. I was in a situation where as you said all the timing was and then I felt like I'd you know been encouraged to go on stage but it wasn't really something that I did that I wanted to do. It puts everything into perspective you know so like like nothing's going to get as hard as that. So I think it it there's times where my job will weigh me down even like today you know not today but I mean in this current head and it's just worth it helps me remember and it helps me put things into perspective that you know just because a radio station isn't playing my single you know that that hurts 0.0 0 0 0 1% the same as as something like that. I think because I was so challenged emotionally and I I I survived the experience, it's given me a weird kind of confidence to be honest. It's it just knowing that life probably won't get that dark again. >> You sometimes don't realize that the role that your parents were playing until they're not around that they were almost a sort of tectonic plate underneath everything. Was that was that a realization at that point? >> Big time. I I there was this true dependency on my mom that I did not realize until I'd got until I'd lost me mom. Um so I think there there was definitely stuff that I've had to learn like being like on my own. And often she would inspire confidence. You know, I'd say I'm worried about this. I don't want to go to this audition or I don't want to do this or I'm worried about this song. And she like, you know, as she always did, made me feel like I could do anything in the in the planet. And she'd actually make me feel stupid for even questioning the fact that I could couldn't do anything, you know. So, I think there's moments like that where you have to you've almost had to relearn confidence like that. >> And and how how does how does a young man grieve the loss of his mother at such a young age? >> Everyone obviously everyone everyone's grief is completely individual. So then I found out more recently, purpose was mine. Now this is again not a luxury that everyone has in a situation like I found myself in. I I grieved and I I I had moments where I was deeply deeply upset. But these were fleeting moments because there was too much to do for my sisters. There was too much to do for my dad and granddad. There was too much to do for me family where it gave me something to do. It gave me a true purpose. It gave me a reason in the darkest days to get out of bed and confidently get out of bed cuz I had that there was stuff that needed to be done. And at that time my sisters were so so so young and I was so terrified of what kind of effect that would have on them, you know, growing up. And luckily they impress me every day. They're amazing amazing women. My role felt like the the strong one in that situation and someone who's willing to give someone, you know, Daisy had called me and she'd be really upset and by the end of the call she can just see the glimpse of a glass half full. That was my job. You know, the grief became less relevant because of the need to look after everyone else. Like sometimes you get might get asked like you know what advice would you give to people with grief? It's just an impossible question to answer just because like I'm still I'm still feeling it. Like you you could you could and the interesting thing about that is you could spend two weeks with me and you never knew me and you never knew my life story. Never in a million years would you think so? I don't carry myself like that. I'm not someone who's like down in the dumps like that. But it's still there, you know. It's it will never go away. >> What What are the symptoms of it still being there? It it it there is like this air of I suppose air of unpredictable this feeling of and that's sometimes where my my uh positivity comes from too like things could change tomorrow. So I suppose that is and that kind of jeopardy and that kind of idea that's how I would interpret it that and because for for any grief that I've experienced it has been relatively quick. I haven't really had a lot of time to compute these kind of ideas. Does that create a certain anxiety with life and a certain worry for life that you know if the foundations are uncertain and bad news can arrive at any moment one would you know that seems like the the breeding ground of worry and anxiety. I I actually wrote that down earlier cuz when we were speaking earlier you said I wasn't a worrier back then >> when you're talking about your childhood. >> Yeah. I didn't used to be a worrier. Now I'm I'm sure most people can say that right? your worry your worry levels or at least for most people are you have less worry when you're younger you know you haven't quite understood all your emotions yet really >> do you have anxiety do you struggle with it >> it's yeah I experience it all the time is it something that kind of controls me no you know I'm sure you've heard about this my vocal coach always used to say to me that the feeling of being anxious and excited are near identical in feeling And and and that was something that always kind of stuck with me really cuz not always but like a lot of like stuff that feels really good can be quite intimidating beforehand. You know that that was an anxiety that comes with doing something that is out of the ordinary. I suppose I can distinctly remember not so much now but on the first tour like I would literally before going out on stage I'd literally as futile and as ridiculous as it is I'd think to myself like how do I run away from this? like how could I literally run out the door and not do the gig? So maybe that would be a version of anxiety, but it didn't stop me getting up there and doing it. I suppose maybe there's the the difference. >> Couple years after the passing of your mother, you lose your younger sister, Felicity. And the circumstances of her her death are um deeply deeply tragic. When I was speaking to several people in your life around you, they they talked about how you had done so much since the passing of your mother to support your sisters, how you'd really take t taken on the role as being the the quote unquote head of the family is what they told me. And the tragedy is deepened by the fact that she's 18 years old at the time. Again, an unthinkable an unthinkable tragedy for for one person to go through in their life, but for you to go through two of these things in succession is I mean, I don't have the words. Yeah, that was that was kind of what I was speaking about before. That moment of stubbing your toe and that kind of aggravating you. That was just like that idea accentuated. Um I just couldn't believe I couldn't I couldn't believe how deeply unlucky we've been as a family. I was just now you know maybe it's not overly uncommon um people that you lose parents young and obviously struggle to deal with a bit at the time. I felt angry at life and I felt angry mostly on be behalf of my family. Now it wouldn't be like obviously I would know that I was included in this idea but I wouldn't be I wouldn't be thinking what have I done to deserve this. It was more Daisy and Phoebe are so young they've already had so and Lotty as well already had so much to deal with. Why this and why now? It just it just it was it did feel incredibly incredibly unfair. That's something that's interesting about grief is just how different each thing feels. Um was that definitely it hit me in a different way. I was it was completely sudden and immediate. I uh again one of the most challenging moments of my life. the so I'm sat in my house in London and everything was like fine. Um I was a little bit worried. I've been worried about Felicity for the months prior as I was worried about all my sisters and I was just sat in my front room smoking a joint, not thinking about anything really. And then the doorbell rang at like 1 in the morning or something or maybe like midnight. And I had this feeling come over me straight away. And I'm not really this kind of guy where I'm I you know and in on another day I might have been worried that the police were coming to grab me weed, but I wasn't like that. I just had this thing come over me straight away and I knew it was bad. and knew that look when someone rings your doorbell about that time it's not it's rarely good news and I saw and then and then I opened the gates I've got these gates and I opened the gates and I saw the police car and the policeman and then they told me that she passed away and I literally was like okay right um I can't tell you why cuz it was it was just there was just Uh, it was only me and my best friend and my ex-girlfriend at the time. So, it wasn't like a pride thing of me being like, "Okay, like I'm I'm cool. I'm fine." I just I think I didn't I just Not only did I was I in denial at that moment, like I just refused to even compute it. It was just like, "Okay, cool." And then I remember shutting the door. And then I had I told the people I'm in the house with. And uh obviously then they then they start crying and obviously then I think your brain starts catching up with you. Um and something that was really really tough for me at this moment in time and this is a stupid thing to say cuz I know that he was more than willing to be there for me but my best friend who I was living at the time who's here today I remember him saying I'm just so sorry. and he was crying his eyes out. I was just like, "I'm just so sorry. I'm so sorry." And I I felt I felt I felt guilty that he felt like that, which is stupid. Um, and so I'd said before about how this is, you know, me and my family are are are some of the characters in this story, but often what's not spoke about in the name of grief is people like my best friend and the role that they have to play. Now, these are not trained therapists. These are not people who've had any kind of reference of this kind of pain. And all you're doing as a best friend there is actually demanding or just praying hoping that they give you something in return that will not change the reality but just you know be there for you or whatever. And that nothing prepares you in life for those kind of situations. That's something that I will forever, forever, ever be in debt to him for because yes, you know, this is an unfathomable, it's a really impossible situation for me and my family to have found ourselves in, but there are other people at play too, you know, and and and I I can only imagine how hard that was. And he knew how hard it was for me and how I just lost me mom and and there are no words, right? you just I'm sure you're just scrambling your brain trying to find the words and there isn't any. Um, also bear in mind everything that I've said before this, if I was to dumb my role down to like one thing in life, I'd maybe say like to look after people. Well, like in the context of my sisters, the protector, right? to lose me sister in the manner that we did. Even though I know I knew that it wasn't fair on myself, like I felt I felt utterly guilty. I felt powerless and I felt like I'd let me sister and like I'd let my mom down really. Um my mom said to me like last couple of weeks of her life, she was like, "You better promise me you look after your sisters." is and I'm like, "Yeah, you know, of course, you know, I will." And she was like, "But specifically, Felicity, you know, she's fragile." I felt like I'd failed at the time. That that that that's the truth. Um I know now that I I didn't and if she was here now, she would say that you didn't. Um but yeah, it doesn't change the feeling. And that's again, you know, that that was that's always been the role I played in the family. So, and all I was trying to all I was trying to do after me was just put me and me sisters in and me grandparents in a bubble and just like let's just nothing's going to get to us, you know. So, that that uh sounds like a really um arrogant thing to say. I mean this more metaphorically, but it truly undermined me. It undermined all the hope that I'd had, all this all these kind of ideas that I was instilling post a life without our mom. And it just kind of undermined all those ideas. It made it made it a lot more challenging for me to say them and and feel them and believe them. But the same with me sisters, like you know, so it it just made everything obviously infinitely more diff difficult. Um, the only thing I'm thankful is that me mom wasn't around to to see that because that would have been horrible for her. But, >> you know, I actually learned this from um being around, funny enough, being around Liam. Um, when someone is struggling with their with their own demons, per se, unless you've been around someone who's really struggling, you probably don't understand how helpless it often feels. And and in hindsight, it's, you know, someone that's not been in those situations thinks, well, you just you just go over there and you sit with them and have dinner and then you fix it. You just stay. But actually, the reality of helping someone who's struggling is they often do things in private and in secretly you referenced you knew that Felicity was was struggling with something. Was was that the passing of your mother that she was struggling with or was it life generally? Was >> I think it was a bit of both. I think I think obviously mom passing definitely amplified any of those things. Um, but I think with Felicity, she was one of these people that um she was uber intelligent from a young age. Really, really, really intelligent, which is ironic cuz I'd say we're relatively smart family, but she was like in her own league. Um, really, really intelligent woman. And I think that brought its own like social frustration for her definitely. You know, you hear these people that are like intelligent from a young age. She would always have felt like she was on the outside looking in, but only because of like her intellect really. And you know that's tough for kids when they're younger. Definitely it's not something I can personally relate to. But I can imagine how that would be really alienating and tough. Fisty was probably the most like mom. So that that that then that also carried its own way because it felt I'd say Felicity looked the most like my mom as well, like visually. >> I mean, she's authentic. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. >> You look like each other to be honest. >> Yeah, we do. I used to get that when I was younger. People always just say how much I look like me mom. And as a young lad, that's not really what you want to hear. But I I'm really proud that >> Yeah. Yeah. You can see how much I love her there. But you see, I've alluded to some of this stuff in the past, not not really ever spoke about it in depth like this. And part of the reason for that is, and this is the correct forum and it makes sense, but part of the reason for that is I can't think of anything worse than being uh what's the word? Um when if when someone if someone like this was talking to me about this and I had not experienced that, I'd feel really sorry for them naturally. I don't like that. I don't like those feelings. I don't like those ideas. appreciate that it's it's weighty and people should of course feel sorry, but I think the reason that I'm always quite selective of how when I talk about it is because I cannot have that define me. I can't. It's not fair to my family. It's not fair to Felicity. It's not fair to my mom. Like I can't. And you know the the problem is if we walked out of here and we just happened to get paps right in the article that the Daily Mail print every single time they will write about this stuff you know like like every single time it could be me and you going to get a coffee and then you know they do that thing where it's like a 20% new article and then they just fluff out the rest of the 80% with basically the narrative that that they want to push. But that's that's something that I can't escape and I that that that I find that really frustrating because I'm not someone who is a a glass half empty kind of guy. I don't want those kind of feelings and emotions. I empathize and understand with the with anyone hearing these stories. Of course, you're going to maybe you would feel bad for me. But I think my biggest worry in these kind of things is to not be defined by it. And an example of that would be when I released a song called Two of Us, which was a song that was written essentially about my mom's uh passing. >> Yeah. >> And I didn't realize by releasing that song how a it would open the floodgates to have many people kind of, you know, put a lot of their trauma on me as well, which is okay, but also creating this thing where anyone just feels like they could ask anything then. So, I remember going on to BBC breakfast news and uh it's one of those things. It's [ __ ] early morning slot. Like, not even the presenters want to be there. Never mind me at that time. And I'm not good with early mornings. Anyway, so I'm going on to talk about two of us the single. Now, we distinctly said, you know what, it's like, you know, these are these are the things that are okay to mention and do not mention these things. Now, if I was going to go on and talk about what the song was about, then fair enough. you know, that's that's one thing. But I actually had a journalist at the time who asked me um directly about those things and I'd known that we' we' we'd said don't. Now, it's very different to be like sometimes on that list we might have don't speak about One Direction like that. This is not what I've got a problem with, but when someone's had their their own grief and you're still then going to ask those kind of questions, I think I found that really really troubling. And I think what was interesting was I I I left the interview and I used to be good at this when I was a bit younger and he took to Twitter was like never [ __ ] working with the BBC again blah blah blah blah blah then he came back at me this journalist he said well um if you write a song about grief expect to be asked about it and my instinctive reaction was there's somebody who hasn't experienced grief they couldn't possibly have because if they had they wouldn't make such a horrible horrible comment that just lacks all kind of empathy. So, I think it's those kind of moments where I've I've quite guarded with this kind of information just because I think as I said, I think a lot of people if I never spoke about it, I I don't carry myself with someone that looks like they're really hurting. At least I hope I don't. I don't think I do. >> Do you know what I had? This sounds like a crazy thing for me to say, >> but I I had no idea. >> Okay. Right. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. >> So, we met Soccer. >> Okay. Right. >> I had no idea. >> I like that. Okay. That makes me feel good, actually. >> And, you know, it's it's just me being honest. I had no idea. I'm not someone that I don't read really read newspapers. I don't stay close to um tabloid stuff. Uh I had known Liam, but Liam hadn't spoken to me about these things. I'd met you. We hang out for a couple of days at Soccerade. I had no idea. >> Yeah. Okay. And it was only in researching your story and your background and understanding where you've come from and really what inspires a lot of the music and and different things like that that I started to understand these things. So, um you're certainly not someone that carries yourself in any with any particular identity really that's that that one could could discern other than just being a normal guy. >> And the the other thing that that connects us is it was Liam and I think it would have been Liam's birthday a couple of days ago. Yeah, his birthday was 3 days off mine. So, his 29th of August, I believe, and mine was mine's the 26th. And we both um I knew him a little bit. You knew him an awful lot. And he he passed away um while on holiday um in Argentina. I mean, yeah. I just it just couldn't believe it. And you to him cuz he had told me he talked about you all the time through the pandemic. I know you were doing things together, doing sort of these sort of live life live shows and stuff. and he would talk about you as if you were his best friend in the band all the time. And I guess that's that's you feel you reciprocate that feeling with him, right? You were like the especially thereafter the band, you know, >> definitely thereafter. I I'd say um in the first couple of years me and Liam used to speak about this. We we kind of but head heads a little bit like I said before Liam had been you know he'd been working really really hard since the age of 14 to get to where he was in One Direction. My journey wasn't like that. So there was definitely, you know, if I wanted to do something and I might be going out late at night and then Liam might say something on the line along the lines of we've got a photo shoot at 9:00 in the morning tomorrow. We we never saw eye to eye on those kind of things cuz I'm just like, well, I've got this amazing opportunity, so I'm still going to go out and, you know, party or whatever. But I think Liam he came from a very very sensible um point of view but mostly because he had uh he'd given so much more time and energy to it by that point like like as I said like when yes it was my third audition but really they weren't too taxing the moments of the rejection I I just got on with it and got through it and it was fine. The only time X Factor was relevant to me was the times when I was auditioning those days. Whereas Liam, it became his life from 14 right up until 16. Um, you know, he he'd sang at like West Brom Stadium before like any of us had done anything. Um, I when I put my post up about him and by the way so utterly challenging that like that there are just too many words and too many memories. You could it could just be infinite the the post you know you got to you I really wanted I really wanted him to be remembered the way that he should be remembered but this you know I could just go on and talk all day about how amazing he was but I think we all looked up to him if we it if we were I don't think I would have been brave enough to say at that age when I was in the band I think I would have had too much pride um but we all looked up to him massively for like the reasons that I just stated you know he he was vastly experienced before any of us had done anything. Um, he was also like the safest pair of hands like in every sense of the word. So like vocally, interview, music video, you know, like whatever it would be and he'd be like working and doing it like he would always be the safest pair of hands where he maybe of me and saying in the back like either smoking a joint or doing something stupid. Liam would always always have his eye on the ball, which ironically created more space for the, you know, when you've got someone who's willing to pick up the pieces and you've got young lads, young lads don't reflect and go, "Oh, I can see who's picking up a lot of the pieces. I'm going to do a bit more for it." Well, no, you just see that. Like my role in the band might have been to be disruptive and have conversations with record labels or or or management or whoever and that was for me to be disruptive and go against the grain. Liam's role was the opposite but equally if not more important to just keep everything going, you know, and and be that safe pair of hands of of uh keeping everything in check. That's why from like a very young age like he was he was he was called like the sensible one in the band which I also don't think would have done him loads of favors mentally either. >> He was wildly misunderstood. >> Big time. Big time man. Big time. >> And often times people maliciously misunderstood him which was hard. You know it's hard. I don't know how I don't know if I have the right words for this but if you knew Liam Payne and then you went on the internet and saw the way that he was described when you know certain moments in press and there was that interview he did in LA >> and things like that. >> Yeah. you you if you you could only feel awful that he was so poorly misunderstood because he was often painted as being arrogant or whatever, but the reality of Liam is like the opposite of whatever the word arrogant is. >> Pure is the word. >> Really? Yeah. Really nice way of describing him like that had and I don't mean this in a in in a remotely um rude way or derogatory derogatory way. He he had a bit of puppy dog energy about him, you know, like he's just like when you say pure there, that's what it makes me feel like. He's just the kind of guy that you might, you know, you might get a bit of banter wrong and it comes across a bit cutting and you see him go, "Oh," and you go, "Oh, I'm a [ __ ] asshole." He just just such a >> just really wanted to be liked. And now we all do obviously like that that I've seen all of us. But I think for Liam it was it was vitally important but also he missed out on some of the social life cuz from 14 to 16 he was actually working at that point like he was still at school and stuff but his brain and and his dreams and probably every night that he went to sleep he was thinking about how is he going to achieve what it is that he wants to achieve. So he he definitely had a very different journey to to all of us. Where were you when you you found out? >> In the car on in LA and I just dropped I'm pretty sure again my memory isn't good at these moments of time, but I think I think I just dropped Freddy off at school with my son and we were just about to pull back up home. Yeah. And yeah, I think that's how it went down. It was actually It was actually I found out through Nile. He told me and then I yeah as soon I think he said n say something like on the lines of have you seen the news and I knew as soon as he said that um kind of knew what it might meant what what he might have meant um I had the feeling to that had a felicity you know and I think anyone has this when they're around someone who's struggling um my 150% wasn't nearly enough. And that's where we, you know, it's my own arrogance thinking that I could have helped really cuz it was so much deeper than than what I could have done for him. He was definitely, you know, he was definitely struggling at that time in his life. And a lot of people said this and I really it really resonated with me. It just he never if he could if he could just see just for 5 minutes just live in your head or my head and see how we perceive him. He would be so shocked. >> He would be like honestly but like even the fact that you two were friends and I didn't know about that until you mentioned it so maybe he mentioned it loosely. Um he would have loved that. He would have loved that. He would have you would have been someone definitely definitely that he would have felt really like proud to know, you know, and like cuz cuz you come from also a very credible space and that's something that was always always really important to Liam. Business very very important to Liam. >> Um so the fact that you saw him like that would have meant the the world to him definitely. >> He just he just Yeah, he he very very misunderstood. But I think also the fact that he was misunderstood is because he was like I said to before about our all of our solo endeavors. When most bands or artists start out, they do a development stage for 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, 2 years. We had to do this development in the public eye post being in One Direction. Liam was still working so much out. So the fact that he might have been a misunderstood, you can't, you know, there's some things that people definitely can be judged for, but in terms of him occasionally coming across like that, you can't even judge people on looking because they just see what they see. But in reality, that's just someone navigating almost in the way that if you went down to university and just people watched for two months, you would see some stuff, you know, of people that were struggling with some things and whatever. Uh or, you know, complete walking contradictions. You'd see someone in the first year who says that they swear by this brand and they'll never wear this brand and then next year they'll be wearing said brand. We we when when we're at that age, we're all still just working it out. there's so much room to be misunderstood cuz you you you don't know yet, you know, and and I think that was a tough thing for all of us is working out who am I outside of Liam in One Direction, Louis in One Direction, who who who am I and what does that look like? And that question's intimidating. Really really intimidating. you lose you lose a friend there, but you also in some respects it marks it's grieving the band again, is it not? Is it not? You know what I mean? It's >> it definitely brought up feelings like that. Um, look, there's there's there's now only three other people on the planet that can deeply understand my professional journey. Like you never say never, right? never like I just can't I can't ever imagine I'm not sure it would be right to him like say say say say say say say say say say say say say say say say say say say say say say sake of argument 25 years time it's like a [ __ ] oasis thing they offer us an arm and a leg and they're like come back and do this many shows I don't know yeah I think it just it just completely put a a pin in all that and the irony is there was no one campaigning for one direction to get back back together more than Liam. And like I would say I came in a close second actually. Like definitely another important thing to mention about Liam which I thought was incredible. There's a time where I felt like me and Liam were professionally losing together. We were struggling to to um be solo artists and find true success and we were kind of struggling together. And then Liam had little moments where he had like really successful singles and they stream really well and he'd like feel really good about that. But at that time I nothing was really working for me and and in my job. So, I was really proud of him and I'd messaged him and stuff, but and then not to the same weight, but kind of role reversed a little bit and Liam start was struggling a little bit more professionally and I just started just started to understand the picture a little bit more, started doing more touring and stuff like that. And like for example, when my I made a documentary in a film about like my life after One Direction and Liam came to the premiere. Now, I'll just say this cuz I was going to mince me words, but none of the other boys would have done that fact. Boys out the band, the the lads in One Direction. Would I have even done that? I would like to sit here now and say, "Yeah, I think I would, but I I I don't know truthfully." And the point being that le me empathizing how I was a couple of years prior to that Liam was sat in a cinema watching a film about how I had been successful in the last 12 months when he was struggling with his own things. And it's something that I'm not sure I would have been brave enough to do. I'm not sure the other boys would have. And basically all that is to to sum that up is just utterly putting himself second. there's no way that that wouldn't have had a certain kind of weight on him because as you said, we're all human and we naturally compare. So, you know, there might be things that were happening there that that he was he was wanting for. And I think just the fact that he turned up on that day and was there for me and I just did the role reverse in my head and imagined that I just imagined how challenging that that could be and it's just a real testament to to Liam and he couldn't have been more happy. And it's another great example, right, of this of where the [ __ ] internet are just it's just horrible place at times. He put up and luckily I know someone will have screenshotted it cuz he deleted in the end. But he put up this beautiful post after my premiere for this documentary. Like an essay, a [ __ ] essay, like stuff that he's never said to me before. It was like the sweetest, nicest [ __ ] [ __ ] And then about two days later, he deleted it because the fans were just caning for it. Just saying that he was like, you know, bandwagon kind of like like you know what what it's like. It's a very small percentage of people, but they make a lot of noise and sometimes it'll push you to a point of like even deleting a pose. But that being an example of him just really putting himself second and really trying to say to the world how proud he was of me and and the end goal was more ridicule >> and save happened right when he was in Argentina. He was there watching Nile. >> Yeah. performing. There was lots of similar narrative around his his appearance there. >> And and all I would say in any regard like that, not just Liam, in any person like that, after you judge, cuz sometimes it's human nature to judge. After you judge, just give those things just a little bit more thought. So take the tour thing for example, and he's at the tour show and people were people were making comments of how much he was loving the attention. On the surface level, that's someone who wants attention. If you just look a little bit deeper, that's someone who's just been in the biggest band in the world and wants those situations again, who hasn't had those live situations again and craves for them. The reason also Liam could be misunderstood is because he he didn't really operate with a filter, you know. So, he would just feel something, say it, and they go, >> "Is there anything else that you you've been meaning to say?" It's a great provocative question that is always right. >> No, no, there is. There is. There is. Um, >> well, we should we should we should talk we should talk about Freddy for a second. My little boy. >> Follow the head. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Which is again something that happened to me. Um, I was young. I was 24 when I had Freddy. Now, what a lot of people the emotions that a lot of people go through when they've become a new parent. Some of those will be different for me because I've always been uber excited about it. Even from like being a young young lad, but also truthfully, I felt utterly confident. >> I just I just I felt I felt like I was going to be a good dad. I really really wanted to to to do that and to play that role. Um and he's just honestly he is just the sweetest kid, man. He's just so kind. Like that's what honestly I could well up thinking about it now. That's what that's what makes me feel deeply proud. >> That I mean that's what I I did ask Lotty and a few others about about him. And the quote that I got back is Louis is the most amazing dad. His little boy is the nicest, sweetest, most polite boy ever. And that's obviously because of how Louis has brought him up. I tried to take a lot of advice and be more like him with my parenting. And that came from Lotty. I know multiple accounts of just how wonderful of a young young man Freddy's growing up to be. So that's >> he's great, man. I tell you what, I'm at this age, 33, few gray hairs on me head, starting to be a bit more aware of me age, feeling a little bit older. There's nothing that makes you feel better than when I go pick him up from school. I am a young dad. Like for that age group, I'm still a young dad. So yeah, it's good for my ego as well. The only things that can sometimes be challenging like that with with Freddy is um it took it was like the elephant in the room for ages, me talking about like my life and specifically the fame like specifically like those kind of things cuz I think to a kid they just see it in the pure sense of a singer, you know, there's someone who sings and that's that. But the I think where I where it became inevitable that I'd have to have conversations with him, it'd be like say we're out, you know, uh at Target in America and someone stops me for a photo. Now, I'd like to say I'm pretty good with photos. I'll do them eight times out of 10. Um whenever I'm with Freddy, there is a 1,000% no chance. Like that is just not happening. I don't get enough time with him as it is. I'm always always balancing me time between tour and going to see Freddy in the UK. So like it's just a flat note every single time. And after like the second or third time that that had happened, I just played in my mind. I put into bed that night and I I was reliving it and I was thinking he's going to think I'm a dick. And that why was I was like cuz I you know it's really important that you know I push kindness on him and and and and respect and seeing the good in people and all of that. And all of a sudden I was doing this thing that was really contrary to what I was kind of trying to teach. So, I did have to have a conversation with him about it. But again, you're you're trying to explain algebra. As I said before, when I'm not at work, like I I would be more than happy to like nobody to ever recognize me when I'm not at work. When I'm at work, I'll need it for the promo. Give me a bit of that. But when I'm not at work, like I'm I could go out me way to just never have any of that. Hood up. No one. Cool. So, when I'm picking up Freddy from school, I am certainly not some guy used to be in this band and this singer. Like, not at all. Well, I am there like everyone else as a father or as a mother. It was last day at term go to pick him up and go to his class and I could just hear what sounded like karaoke. And I'm thinking of all [ __ ] days of me going to pick him up, they're doing karaoke today. And she had absolutely no problem asking me in front of everyone if I wanted to come to the front and do one of the songs. Now I'm there as a parent like you know that that's that. And what's really tough is in front of Freddy and all his friends, I have to plightly decline. Now, I don't really like how that's going to make Freddy feel. You know, those kind of situations are really, really tough like that where now some people may well have just grabbed the mic and just took the stage, you know, but um I I those there are moments like that that I think I don't think he's going to truly understand until he gets a little bit older. He's been to a couple of gigs and that definitely added like some context to it all. >> He came to you in California, didn't he? >> Yeah. when you performed out. >> Yeah, that was amazing, man. It was so amazing. >> I did something at 24 years old that has had a profound impact on my life. I set myself the challenge of posting every single day on my social media channels and at the time I was doing it to grow my following. But it had this profound impact on my life and two remarkable things happened when I did that. I managed to learn faster because every single day I'm capturing what is happening to me and trying to distill it down into something that I can share with the world. But more remarkably, it led me to building a following of many millions of people. And that's the basis that I used to launch the Dire of SEO. And that's why I want to tell you about our sponsor today, Adobe Express. They are the platform that I use to make all the posts across my LinkedIn and across my Instagram. It's a couple of clicks and you don't need to be an expert. And that is why I love using it because I'm not an expert in graphic design. It's accessible to use for all of us, even if we don't have the technical prowess to design great things. So, if you want to start compounding both your reach and your knowledge like I did at 24 years old, then head to adobe./stephven and get started with Adobe Express. That's adobe. Steven. I guess we should talk about the music. >> Yeah. >> Which I'm very excited to talk about. So, you've been working on this album. And I think what's the important context we've had is I'm curious to know how much everything we've talked about today and the season of life that you've arrived at at 33, you're now in love as well. >> Your girlfriend is out there from all the people I spoke to. >> You're very smitten. I think your your friend from back home described you as being whipped. >> Was that Miz? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like him. That's funny. >> Um and you went Instagram official. >> Yeah. Yeah. I saw that. New territory for me all that. Yeah, I'm learning on the job. >> How does that all weave in to the music? And how is the music different this time around? Like what are you thinking going into the studio? >> You know, all of those all those things are so relevant. They are like, you know, personal life and and and how happy you are and fulfilled and content. All those things of course play into the record definitely. I think because of you know a lot of the conversation we've just had, there's been a certain kind of weight to the music before now. Like I said, I wrote that song about my mom called Two of Us. And there's just a certain I could imagine, you know, listening to my first record, like I' i'd be pretty exhausted after listening to it emotionally. It's like [ __ ] hell. Just put in a couple of nice, happy, fun songs, you know? But I it wasn't true to me at that time. So like I think I think now now I feel in a comfortable place to be like positive and like happy and confident. You know, that's one thing I was thinking about with this record is like my intention is just to maybe feel good. I know that's a really cliche and like obvious thing to say, but I'm not sure some of my other music did that. It made you feel it was honest. It was painful at times, but it didn't feel that good. So, I think now I've got this almost like a new sense of life, a new sense of happiness and purpose and fulfillment, all of those things. But also, it's something I've like the older I get, the more hippie I can get on these kind of ideas. And if I would use like a an analogy, on the last two records, I had a very small palette of paint of the colors I was choosing from. And a lot of them were kind of darker colors. Whereas on this record, it feels like the palette is a lot deeper. There is a lot more to say, but there's a lot more color on there as well. That makes me feel really good because that that I must feel good to make that record. You can't fake [ __ ] like that or at least I can't anyway. >> And how much does love come into all of this? >> As I said, I'm I'm like deeply deeply romantic person. Um it also it's also easy to be romantic when you're a creative. You know, those two things are just they're tied. But I think for me, I really struggle to write in a fictional sense. I really really struggle. So like for me I have to have been living it. I have to it has to be literal. It has to be real to me. So if I wasn't feeling so good like right now I wasn't feeling so in love. The record probably would have a slightly different feel to it. Just cuz it you know I things like that are in everything that I we do I would say. >> And what is success for you this time around? Like what is we talked about the comparison and this and that and all these other yard sticks we can use and >> I'll tell you what success is. Success for me is actually successfully computing what the new idea of success is. So I know what my old idea is, but true success for me, and I'm not there yet, is getting to the point where I don't just say this is my new version of success. I mean it implicitly. And it's really what's really difficult is the music industry is an industry that is a a numbers game and b competitive. Now you can pretend to have this different version of success and and and and you can get there in the end, but the point being that like there are a million different tools in place to pull you to the other side. >> Yeah, >> it genuinely shouldn't matter where my album charts, let's just say like go to the UK for example, where my album charts in the UK. It shouldn't really matter that much to me, but it does. I've not quite got there yet. And I think the irony is I just started to get there on the last record. And the last record obviously high class problem. I get that. Went to number one. And then all of a sudden I'm like obviously I want it again now. So I I started to have the answer for what the new thing of success looks like until I succeeded. I superseded my own idea of success. And then I'm like, "Oh, well then the barriers just changed." And then that then then you're basically just playing the same game you were before. >> Where are you in your journey of happiness? Like if you had to plot plot your plot your life on a timeline of like, you know. >> Oh, I like that cuz I've never really thought about that like thought about it like this. It makes me feel good. It feels like I'm on the home straight. >> Okay. Nice. Beautiful. Like I feel like truthfully, like obviously not what I would have told like my sisters like back in the day or my family or anything like that, but like it was more of a concept. Um the idea of me getting over this and being truly happy for a long time. It was like a concept as opposed to any kind of form of reality. It was like, "Oh, well, I'm sure, you know, logically that makes sense in my head, but will I ever get that? I don't know." Um, I now feel worthy for the success that I've earned. And for a long time, I I just I didn't know if I'd ever get there. And I would say this record, this this album is the album that I was always that I always deserve to make. It's just I had to be brave enough to say, "Yes, I'm an artist. Yes, I'm a recording artist, and I'm a touring artist, and I'm a songwriter." And all these things that sometimes just felt a little bit cringe to say out loud, weirdly. And I think part of the imposter syndrome maybe, but the the picture that was forever quite blurry looks a little bit more sharp now. >> And I mean, the fans are waiting. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I saw the tweet you did the other day where you you talked about the music and how confident you are and how you're feeling about it. Um, and the response underneath that that post was just insane. >> Absolutely insane. the energy is is there and um people are extremely excited. You have an incredible fan base. >> Yeah, honestly, I I I could I can never talk about this enough. Um and anyone listening to this now that doesn't know me or my fans would just think that this is just another artist speaking another cliche about his fans. I'm telling you, this is what I call it is a codependency. like I they do so much for me and I do, you know, hopefully stuff for them when I do the gigs and stuff, but like when I feel the energy on stage, this is not a let me show you all what I can do. this is a look what we've done together, you know, and I really really feel that the the size of the venues that that'll be playing on this next tour. These are things I never considered for myself and only made possible from the fan base being like really really loyal but also like real patient real patient for me to just kind of you know work all these things out on the fly while they keep buying the record. The other thing that really surprised me that a lot of people didn't know about is that you are also um a pretty prolific entrepreneur in your own right and you've you've founded a music festival called the Away from Home Festival which was which originally in London but has expanded internationally around Spain, Italy, Mexico. Um you got your clothing brand as well, 28 I saw 28 tattooed on your arm there I believe which is a streetear brand. Um and that's done tremendously well. The the brand has sold four soldout drops worldwide and hosted some incredible events. Well, I'm very excited. I'm very very excited about your um your album. Very very excited by it. I'm I'm I guess um Do you have a name for your fan base yet? Everyone seems to have a name for the fan. >> You know what? That's so funny cuz like >> the Tom Lindon. I don't know. What's it? >> There must be though. That Oh, I think No, they call himself the Louis. >> The Louis. So, I'm a Louis. So, >> there we go. So, just rolls up the tongue. >> We We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. The question left for you, it's a bit of a paragraph, but I'm going to give it my best shot. If you are truly prioritizing the most important things in your life, brackets, eg family, and we only have limited time and effort to give. If you are a high achiever and performer, have you prioritized the most important thing? >> No. No, I haven't. I haven't. But I would I would I would that's really tough one to answer. It requires some true true honesty. Those the things that really really matter. For a start, I spent a lot of my a lot of my later teen years and early adult life in One Direction. So, I didn't I didn't re I wasn't really in the head space for the ball to have dropped for how important certain things are. When you're younger, it's super literal, right? Like, if I drink this alcohol and get really drunk and I feel good, then that's good, right? Then you get a bit older and you realize, oh, maybe it's not so good. So, like any of those kind of things. Um, I I I I suppose now I understand how important, you know, looking out for yourself is and and and mental health, but also, you know, I've always been a family guy, but I mean, actually deeply cherishing those moments as well. So, I definitely could have done that more as as a young lad, but I think that's probably the case of a lot of young people that they probably reflect and think, well, I should have done that more as a as a young person. But the truth is, the ball hasn't really dropped yet. you don't realize how important those all those little intricacies intricacies are cuz also when you're young everything's so new so you just like the allore is so much sexier on the other side oh look there's a new thing here new thing here new thing here whereas I think it takes a bit of age and experience to look at those things to go oh actually maybe I haven't been spending my time correctly >> yeah I mean you perfect you said it perfectly and it really held the mirror up to me to be honest because I think you know you said you you haven't perfectly prioritize the most important things, but you're certainly prioritizing the most than more than most people, >> you know, cuz I hear about how much time how much effort you put into making sure you spend time with Freddy and your sister described you as always being family centric. >> Um, and that's a really really beautiful thing. Louis, thank you so much. So, I can't be can't be more excited to listen to the album with all the context that we've described and also the understanding of where you've arrived at in your life now and how how your perspective has has developed and um all that lived experience has poured into a beautifully uplifting wonderful sound. Um so, thank you so much for the honor and the privilege of being able to have this conversation with you and just for being a really on and off camera just a really really sound guy. >> Oh, nice one, man. I appreciate that. No, I really enjoyed it, man. I really It flew by though. We've been talking for some time. >> Yeah, it's good man. Thank you so much. Make sure you keep what I'm about to say to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you to come even deeper into the D of a CEO. Welcome to my inner circle. This is a brand new private community that I'm launching to the world. We have so many incredible things that happen that you are never shown. 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