Lose Fat & Gain Muscle Without "Dieting" - Dr Layne Norton

why do diets fail so reliably over the long term uh a lot of different reasons but if we zoom out and take a 10,000 foot view uh the main reason is because people view it as a diet instead of lifestyle change so if we dig into the statistics if of people who lose weight or sorry of obese people seven out of every eight will lose a significant amount of body weight in their lifetime so why do we have an obesity problem the problem is they almost all of them put it back on and in many cases actually put on more than they lost so if you look at the weight regain statistics and you go out like a year depending on the stats you use and the inclusion criteria for regain 50 to 70% will regain what they lost uh if you go two years it gets closer to 80 85% and if you look at three years I mean you're looking at 90% Plus have put it back on and so a lot of people want to lose weight but they only think about a diet as an end point and so if you stop doing the habits and behaviors that allowed you to lose it in the first place you're not going to sustain it I mean a great example is uh my father did a ketogenic diet like 20 years ago and he lost 30 lbs but slowly he kind of reverted to his previous lifestyle and so slowly the weight came back on and so I tell people it's hard to if you're going to lose a lot of weight it's hard to change your life while dragging your old habits and behaviors behind you and for whatever reason this doesn't seem to like click with with diet and lifestyle because you know I I looked at a um a systematic review of successful weight loss maintainers so you're basically talking about the 5% right like the people who lose it and keep it off what do they have in common and this was a review by researcher named marish breckley and it really stood out to me because some of the stuff that you would expect is on there which is cognitive restraint meaning they're either tracking calories or limiting carbs or or time restrict some form of restraint right like you have to have some form of restraint but then and then there was exercise on there self-monitoring meaning they're weighing themselves frequently you know that's obvious like feedback if you start going up you change your habit again but then there was something on there that like really kind of it made sense but I was like huh I never thought of it that way and it was a lot of them almost down to a person identified that they had to form a new identity like they had to become someone else and do you know Ethan sule yes so Ethan is a Hollywood actor who lost over 300 pounds and has kept it off and now he I mean he went from being basically like your prototype fat guy in a movie to who like he looks like he'd play a Navy SEAL he's the Prototype hard guy in the movie yeah yeah he looks like a badass and he always would put up something when he'd post his gym photos which was I killed my clone today I've got a t-shirt with that on you some your T-shirt and I was like I thought it was a cool saying but it didn't really register and then when I read this review I texted him immediately and I was like is this what you mean like forming a new identity he said that is exactly what I mean and if you think about it it makes perfect sense if you're I don't want to say that there's like food addiction cuz the the actual research for that is kind of convoluted um it's more about what they call Food dependence which there are subtle differences but regardless if you're an alcoholic you can't you can't live the same lifestyle you lived you can't just say well I'm going to stop drinking but I'm still going to go to bars and I'm still going to be around a bunch of people who drink I mean I guess you can try but it's going to be really hard for that to be successful right and so one of the other things that was in this this review was they they pointed out that they had they lost friends and then they gained new friends I think a lot of people would interpret that as well you know they're getting into fitness now and think they're too good for their old friends and I don't think it's that at all I think it's at a much more pragmatic level that if you're just doing new stuff you're not going to like it's going to be hard to hang around people who just aren't into the stuff that you're into and also a lot of times and we see this a lot the whole crabs in a bucket you start improving yourself and people who let me put that back because I might get a little uh you start changing yourself and other people it makes them feel insecure I don't think you need to try and pull that back I don't think that there is anybody out there that would say I'm over 30 BMI taking myself under Mi is anything other than improving myself like your moral worth as a human doesn't change but your health outcomes do that's Improvement there are people who would argue that it doesn't well there's people who there's people who have got a [ __ ] like 22.5 BMI that are total dicks there's people who have got a 35 BMI that are fantastic people but those 35 BMI fantastic people at a 25 BMI have improved themselves like presuming that what we want is flourishing humans that add to the world for a longer period of time for sure give yourself the best chance of last get that in you go on shove that in your face yeah good man you're dependent on it um okay so now actually give some good you know some good advice good yeah thank you well I you've been slow so far um speaking of this identity change thing did anybody deconstruct that is there are the tactics strategies mantras component parts that people can think I want to change my identity what does that look like structurally yeah so not in the study but the way I kind of present it to people is R retro engineer it okay so think about the person you want to become and then think about what do I think that person's habits and behaviors look like um if I want to lose 100 pounds do I think that is a person who's going to McDonald's every day probably not now could can you theoretically go to McDonald's every day and lose 100 pounds sure there are people who have done that sort of experiment whatever but for the most part that is not on average what you would find somebody doing who does that right are they drinking every day probably not are they exercising frequently probably are so you start thinking about what do I think this person does on a daily basis if somebody you know comes to a Chris Williamson and says I I want to be one of the best podcasters in the game right well people a lot of times they just try to emulate the end the end result they don't try to emulate the process which is why you've got a bunch of 30 th000 millionaires taking pictures with rental cars and and jets they don't own right so the question becomes okay if I'm looking at the end product what process do I think got them there and what is the evidence-based process for getting there and the evidence-based process for getting there is setting yourself up for success in terms of your environment the people you're around and the things that you do on a day-to-day basis so many people and I think it's almost like a Hollywood thing if you watch a movie it's like almost always the change in a character or the crescendo of the movie is some revolutionary thing that changes everything and all of a sudden it stops on a dime 180c Montage right and the reality is it's it's rarely like that rarely does a switch flip it is the slow Progressive accumulation of small things that you do every day that feel like nothing that feel like they don't actually do anything but you do that over time and it makes a big difference one of my favorite quotes is one of the problems that keeps people from being successful is people drastically overestimate what they can do in 10 weeks but they drastically underestimate what they can do in 10 years and if I look back I was actually having this conversation with a friend of mine who's very successful financially and career-wise and he's in a place right now where he's saying man I just don't feel like I'm getting any traction and I feel stuck and I'm not moving I said hey man like just look at the data okay the data says over the last 10 years you progress and you are successful but there are going to be periods of time where it feels like you're not and even in like the last 10 years if I look at the last 10 years or even 20 years of my life I'm like my God look at all the stuff I did but if I zoom in to weeks months even some years I felt like making progress was completely intractable and it felt like I was you know stuck in mud but when you keep your feet moving when you zoom out and you kind of get through that spot a lot of times you realize oh no I was making progress I just hadn't actualized it yet I hadn't seen those gains yet we we talk about this in powerlifting which I compete in a lot of times you're training under a high level of fatigue and so you're getting stronger but it's being masked by the fact that you have so much fatigue and then when you pull pull back when you taper all of a sudden you actualize those gains and I think so many people stop in that area where they're under the high fatigue and they never actualize those gains and so what I'll getting back to your original question what I will say is the stuff that works is not sexy it doesn't sell and it seems insignificant in many ways but it is small daily repeated habits done over and over and over again and I even put up a post today talking about how lifting changed my life and not because I got a better physique or because I got physically stronger but because it taught me so many things about resilience and working through setbacks and not quitting when things got hard and being patient and I remember like I had really skinny legs when I started lifting and even after 3 years of training my legs were still really skinny and I remember being really frustrated and wanting to quit except I had these great parents that were like we're not quitters Norton don't quit and uh so I said to myself you know maybe um maybe I'll never have a good set of legs and this is when I was competing in bodybuilding but I'm going to put in 10 years of work and if it doesn't happen then I'll allow myself to quit and I can feel good about it because I know I did everything I could and sure enough funny enough after 10 years I I didn't have the best set of legs on stage but they were good you know and then 17 years after that I actually went and set a world squat record and I can remember my coach uh who had known me for like almost 20 years um when I came downstairs after I did my drug testing and setting that world record he was sitting on a five gallon bucket and he was crying he never cries he's not an emotional guy I was like dude what is it and he goes you were the skinny kid you were the kid with skinny legs that everybody on the bodybuilding forms made fun of how did you just do that and when I what I tell people is it was just I just kept going day after day after day doing the work and again it felt like it was taking forever but when you accumulate all that stuff up it's amazing what could do it I mean even you like look at what you've done you know James was telling me about how you you got started in podc podcasting and everything and James gives this great talk where basically he's talking to entrepreneurs and the Crux of the talk is just freaking go just like be willing to fail like so many people are frozen by paralysis by analysis I think that's where a lot of the the where I work with trying to dispel diet myths I'm trying to simplify it for people because people hear all these conflicting myths and a lot of times they never start because they're so afraid of getting it wrong and it's like no get it wrong it's fine like get it wrong but learn you know and then over time you will find what works but you can't ever do that if you don't start the best heris that I've learned to help people overcome that fear of not being perfect like I'm an Optimizer right Tim Ferris I loved listening to him on the come up uh we did 25 episodes of life hacks on how to make the perfect toasted Sandage or a new meditation app or you screen time blocking or this new type of Crocs or whatever like the best bamboo cotton pants we found uh so I was an Optimizer and the problem with being someone that wants to do things right and does cares and does things with earnestness and stuff like that is that there is this sort of you allow yourself to be excused from doing a thing because well I'm just finding out the information right I'm I'm sort of stuck in this Preparatory phase I'm permanently permanently writing the plan uh and not actually acting on the on the plan and the best thing because we can throw py aphorisms around all day and I'm sometimes accused of doing that tactically the best thing that I've relied on for this is is this a reversible decision if it's a reversible decision starting a diet is the most [ __ ] reversible because tomorrow guess what you can do a different diet probably not a good idea but if you say hey for 60 days I'm just going to give this a crack I'm going to see if intermittent fasting is for me as opposed to watching all of the podcasts about it or reading all of the Articles or you know arguing with people on [ __ ] Instagram comments about it like you do that like just it's it's a reversible decision for sure right and if it's a reversible decision then the net cost of you trying it is essentially zero right because all that you will have lost is some of the time that you would have lost vacillating about whether or not to make the decision in any case so why not just have a crack and close the loop on dude I tried intimate and fasting do you know what is might work for some people I can't deal with the hunger pangs I get to 2 p.m. and I'm like I I got to eat everything and it causes me to rebound more in the night time or or it might be like for me keto for me really doesn't I don't like the way that my stomach feels on keto I feel very hungry a lot of the time high fat doesn't seem to agree with me fine but I closed that loop I closed that Loop like 10 years ago I'm like all right I have some different dietary Tools in my toolkit kito's not one of them maybe I'll give it another crack in 5 years maybe my my my Constitution will have changed a little bit or whatever um so what what you've mentioned there is that and and this is really interesting and really important I think identity based change someone thinks about the end result type of person not necessarily a person but what would that type of person do what would the best version of you tomorrow want you today to do what sort of decisions would they make now presumably the only way that you can actually work out what those decisions are yes I want to be lean or I want to be healthy I want to be fit or I want to be the sort of person that looks good with that top off or whatever it might be but you need to actually understand what the contributing elements are of that strategy and if you don't know what the principles are that you need to follow you're like wishing for this outcome with no mechanism to help yourself get there yeah and I think you need to have a strong why too like that's that's the other thing I I I get there's some people I talk to are stuck in perpetuity of trying to lose 5 pounds and I'm like hey why are you trying to lose this and a lot of times as well you know I just want to look I'm like is it really going to be that big of a difference from where you are now you know like you're torturing yourself over this thing and why don't you just do it well the reason you don't you're not doing it is because your why isn't strong enough you haven't identified why that is more important than say you're going to eat the extra socializing with your friends or allowing yourself isn't that interesting that some people can kind of become and I've got a lot of and I probably in many regards still am this uh taking a good amount of pride in my condition in my strength in the way that I look in the way that I can move and stuff like that but I let go of at least like I have to be the one of the biggest leanest jackest guys in the gym thing maybe about six or seven years ago if you don't do that you can basically just get stuck on that level playing the same game for the rest of your life like I have this unrequited love with my physique I have this unrequited love with the number of Partners I've slept with I have this unrequited love with the amount of money that I've made or whatever and people just continue to play this game over and over and over again as opposed to going if this mattered to me that much I would probably be closer to my goals and that's probably an uncomfortable realization for a lot of people yeah I mean like um I've had this conversation quite a bit recently of that goalpost will always move you know but for me like I'm competing in Nationals this weekend which by the way is why my nails are painted cuz my daughter and I we have a tradition she's seven and she paints my nails before every big me what's the style that she's gone for here can you describe it usually we do red white and blue um for the USA obviously red blue and glitter so but she had some glitter and she wanted to use that so that's I'm pretty sure because you're in a tested Federation correct I'm not sure that that's going to pass this not Natty no that's that's that's the least Natty thing that you can do well it is a performance enhancer for me so that's correct that's correct all right so but I I did want to touch on um for me I mean I I got second in the the world in 2015 in powerlifting and at the biggest power lifting meet at that point in history and then went through a bunch of injuries um like I could write out a laundry list of stuff multiple herniated discs tears and muscles in my hips um adductor tears uh partially torn pecs like a laundry list of stuff lots of fun and it took me eight years to get back and when Master's worlds sorry seven years and there were I mean that's a long time and there was a lot of failures to launch of me starting to come back and then going back to the beginning I mean that must have been at least a half dozen times and it was very frustrating and there were times where I questioned it but I had a very strong why of I believed deep in my soul that I could be a world champion I believe that and I also believed deep down that I had not been the strong that I could have been and like to your point of the goalpost movie it wasn't about I've got to be stronger than all these other guys it was I believed it deep in my soul and it was important for me to prove that to myself that I could get through that that I could come back and I loved competing so I had a really strong why and that's what allowed me to get through that and when I did it it I've one of the things I'll give myself credit for is I'm good about giving myself credit some people have said oh you're cocky I'm like no I've done some pretty bad [ __ ] stuff and like I'm okay with giving myself that credit because I've met so many people who are so successful in so many ways and they're miserable because they never go great job that was awesome yeah well done like you're allowed to do that it's okay you know like I when I got second at Worlds in 2015 and set a world squat record and that was after I had herniated some discs even I was out in my boat in the Florida Keys by myself just on vacation and I literally took 15 minutes I was like damn BL you did it like good job you know because I remembered um I knew this guy in the bodybuilding message boards and this guy had a terrible Aesthetics for bodybuilding like horrible uh had no business even being a pro bodybuilder but he worked so hard and he got so lean that he got third at the world championships for drug tested bodybuilding like it was unbelievable honestly like he maxed it out and people were congratulating him online and he said I'll never forget it he said you know thanks guys but to me anything less than an overall Victory is just a a complete uh failure and I'm like what a miserable existence like dude it's and it's okay it just because you give yourself credit doesn't mean that you can't strive for selling yourself short yeah for me that that actually helps me strive for more because I allow myself to feel it I allow myself to feel good that's positive reward like if you're not if you're not going to celebrate yourself when you get even close to your goal what the [ __ ] are you doing it for isn't it strange that we're it's more publicly acceptable to be our own biggest critic than our own biggest fan yep exactly I have a friend who's a psychologist and every once in a while she'll like um she'll validate me and then she noticed that when she would do that I would kind of be like oh well you know it wasn't that and she would go Lane you're doing it again you you're this is what you you want this but if you keep deferring it you're actually what you're telling me is you don't want it and I'm like you're right I'm sorry thank you for validating me on that you know and it really is funny I think it's it's so weird we can even feel bad about like talking about our income or talking about some we're supposed to minimize the stuff we did and look I'm not saying like get up on the mountain top and Shout about all the great things you've done but I think it's important to like make sure you're not goalpost shifting all the time I mean I've talked about this stuff with like really really really successful people and I'll never forget I had a a client I started online coaching in 2005 when I was in graduate school and uh one of my first clients I turned Pro in natural bodybuilding he he was an estate planning attorney and he pulled me aside after that show this is like 2007 and we were at dinner he pulled me aside and he goes Lane I need to I need to talk to you about something I've been around a lot of really successful people and I'm telling you you've got it you've got it you're you're going to be successful I have watched a lot of really successful people die and to a person they all say the same stuff they say I wish I had have spent more time with my family I wish I would have spend more time with the people I cared about I wish I would have traveled more I wish I would have had more experiences I wish I wouldn't have wor about the dumb [ __ ] that I worried about none of them say I wish I'd made another million dollars I wish I'd you know spent more time in or on Zoom or an email yeah exactly and I had like that sat with me but I think this last year I kind of even really had an epiphany of like I don't have to wait to enjoy my life it's to enjoy it now and I was having a conversation with somebody like like what's your goal is like to build stuff up and make a $100 million and I'm like no not really because I don't want to live a life like somebody who does that because I want my kids to like their dad and I want to spend time with my friends and do fun stuff and like compete in powerlifting and do stuff that's fun for me because like what is that money even worth if you can't do the stuff that you enjoy doing in other news this episode is brought to you by momentos trust is really everything when it comes to supplements a lot of Brands may say that they're top quality but few can actually prove it which is why I partnered with momentos one of my favorite supplements from them are their sleep packs and they contain an evidence-backed blend of ingredients including magnesium alate appenine and eleine in research backed dosages so if you are struggling to get to sleep on a nighttime if you struggling to stay asleep throughout the night or if you are not waking up feeling rested and revitalized in the morning this is a great place to start Dr Andrew hubman is actually the Scientific Advisor for momentus so if you've ever wondered what supplements he would create if he could or what he actually uses himself this is the answer best of all they offer a 30-day money back guarantee so you can buy it and try it and if you do not like it for any reason they will give you your money back head to the link in the show notes below or go to liv.com slod wisdom for up to 32% of everything sitewide that's l i v m o m n t us.com slod WI there's nothing sadder to me than seeing somebody that's quantifiably very successful admirable lots of reputation status money a claim Prestige all that [ __ ] and you look and you go you have no fun like what's the point actually what's the point and there's some people and I'm friends with a couple of them for whom greatness in its sort of success metric kind of way is so important that they're prepared to sacrifice fun I'm like all right that's not necessarily the way that I'm wired but that took me a little bit of time to realize that it's not the way that I'm wir because fun and your enjoyment of life does not appear on any observable metric that you can brag about to other people it's not apparent in your Instagram followers it's not apparent in your bank violence but it's all of those things are supposed to be Upstream from the actual outcome you want which is presumably a life that you enjoy and that you're proud of and that in retrospect you're glad that you lived and they're not mutual either like I I think um you can be successful and have fun I don't know here's a question for you and this is actually my number one question I wrote at the bottom of my end of your review the start of this year which was is it Poss possible to be world class and have fun at the same time the reason that that's an interesting question is that when you're talking world class you're you know top Point whatever .01% within your chosen industry if you are not prepared to sacrifice everything you will be en by somebody that is prepared to sacrifice everything in that one domain now the question is what's the outcome you're optimizing for are you optimizing for sort of a well balanced holistic Integrated Life are you optimizing for maximum success within this very narrow domain if it's just that one you're going to get beaten by the other people but if you can sacrifice a couple of percent in that for 50% more life enjoyment to me that seems like a trade that's worth making I may have a different perspective on this um and a couple different angles on it I think the first thing is I look at it if you're talking about like we've got a very narrow window of time I think you're probably right but I've just seen so many people burn out so fast and stuff and here I am 20 years later in the same industry still doing the same things I've done and it's because I enjoy what I do and it doesn't feel super fatiguing for me but I've seen people come in flash in the pan and here I am the tortoise over here just chugging along and I keep going you know and the other thing that's interesting too is going through all these injuries and dealing with all this pain specifically with like within Sports and powerlifting there honestly with as much quackery as there is around nutrition there's just as much around pain science um we think of pain management as stretching getting massage surgery if you look at the actual evidence-based stuff some of the strongest predictors of reducing pain and recovering from injuries are uh psychological in nature um so Stress Management there's a very high correlation between uh chronic fatigue syndrome fibromyalgia in fact most autoimmune diseases and high stress and psychological stress and psychiatric disorders um when your body is like when you're spun up all the time it apparently increases your sensitivity to pain is one of the things it does it opens they call it like kind of a sorry they call it kind of like opening the gate of pain that as you get more stressed your gate widens and allows more things in and interesting experiment there was a while back where I think it was I might butcher the specifics but the the the Crux of it will be accurate which they took 300 people and they uh applied the same amount of pressure to their skin and it was standardized so everybody's getting the same pressure they asked them to rate it zero through 100 zero being absolutely no pain whatsoever 100 being the most painful thing they ever felt most of the ratings were around the 50 Mark so right in the middle but there was somebody who rated it as low as four and somebody who rated it as high as 96 for one person the same pressure was basically nothing and for another person it was one of the most painful things theyd ever felt and so what that says is pain is an experience it's almost like an emotion and if you read the bioc psychosocial model of pain um it just really opens your eyes another thing is sleep so sleep deprivation uh will can increase your risk of injury by up to 236 per. so that looking at8 hours sleep versus four hours sleep a night um and then actually your beliefs about pain and recovery so so people who believe they need excellent formon exercises to not get injured are actually more likely to get injured than people who believe their bodies are strong and resilient people who ruminate on pain who think about it constantly who like check it like if like if I have a back niggle and I'm thinking about it all the time if I'm like messing with it all the time the research shows that will make it worse whereas the people who are more like oh yeah you know I like great example complete total shift in my mind frame uh in 2016 I had a a hip injury in training it started out it wasn't that that wasn't that bad but I kept beating on it trying to get through it and I kept thinking about it and ruminating on it and after like 12 weeks I couldn't even squat the bar below parallel without like nine out of 10 pain whereas a comparable tweak I did like six weeks ago prepping for Nationals I was squatting 590 lbs for three reps and on the third rep I felt my doctor kind of tweak and it was sore after that probably like slightly strained it and I backed off I rested I didn't ruminate about it I just was like you know what we've been here before this will be okay in a few weeks we'll just take it as it comes as it stands three weeks three weeks later I couldn't even feel it it's totally fine and I mean again this is an N of one right but this is in line with the research and so getting back to what you're saying about can you focus and sacrifice all that so for me my mental health became actually something I prioritized even more because it affected my training it affected my recovery from training so some people will say well you know you post in your stories like you're having a bourbon watching the sunset nothing exists in isolation like in isolation is alcohol good for training hell no but what if and again I don't have any data on this but what if me really enjoying that Sunset having a bourbon the relaxation effect of that actually is a net positive for me I'm not saying other people should do that and I'm not promoting people drink alcohol if you can relax and other ways but for whatever reason I have been able to recover more having more fun and sacrificing I'm still sacrificing cuz I'm in the gym you know two three hours a day pretty much I think my weekly training load is like 12 to 13 hours it's a lot of training and I'm still being diligent with my nutrition that sort of thing but I and I won't go out and get like hammered or anything like that but I'll go with my friends on the weekend and I'll have a few drinks you know and I think younger Lane would have been like you're not pushing hard enough for this you're not and now being older I'm like I'm trying to run the marathon you know what I mean and I've just seen so many people burn out so I think the answer is yes and no so the answer is if you're talking about an if you got a Sprint in a very narrow sliver of time yes the person who sacrificed more will will win out every single time but if you're looking at like long success you have to find a way to make that sustainable for you um and I think some people e and even people who maybe have that success how many of them do we see they look back and they go man I would you know I probably didn't have to go do exactly what I did to get what I got I probably could have like enjoyed it a little bit more and so I think there is a fine balance there and then the one other thing I will say is people also give them stress over they try to do everything at the same time and one of the things I've really embraced now is there are seasons of life right so part of the reason I say I'm I'm probably not going to make $100 million is because even though I'm an entrepreneur I want to compete in power offing and I want to train two three hours a day but also have kids so if you want to be a good dad and a good athlete you can't be a 100 millionaire at the same time yeah and I'm cool with it I'm triage your priority yeah I'm cool with making that sacrifice cuz I know I've had some like epic moments that you couldn't pay me enough for like setting that world squat record back in 2015 there's not an amount of money you could pay me to to give that back because what would I go spend it on like to do what and and then so like other things I enjoy like I used to do competition uh Tactical Pistol shooting I used to fish a lot more go up my boat a lot more I don't do that as much anymore but I'm cool with it because I know the kids are going to graduate one day and I'll get to do that stuff in the future and I think if some people could just Embrace that there are seasons of life um they'd feel they' feel differently about things I think a lot of people give themselves a lot of unnecessary stress because they feel like I should go back to school um I should start a business I should you know get my nutrition order I should hey if you're a single mom going back to school and you're working three jobs maybe now is the time to like try to drop 20 lbs you know like you know like it's okay to embrace the seasonality of Life yeah juji mufu wrote an article I think two decades ago talking about periodization for life and uh it's so [ __ ] it's so true man all right getting back to diet getting back to diet I would meta on you not at all not at all I think it's important I think it's important for people to see how goals overall are sort of couched within a bigger Reco system that that that stuff's really important nothing exists in isolation is there such a thing as a best diet for fat loss and overall health okay so if we look at the research there are now two metaanalyses looking at various different diets and their effectiveness on long-term weight loss and when I say metaanalysis what we're talking about is essentially study of studies where they're using different inclusion criteria and they're trying to compile a bunch of similar studies to see if we can come to a consensus right so one metanalysis looked at four different popular diets another one looked at 14 and they ranged from low carb high fat to lowfat high carb to everything in between and when I say low carb I mean ketogenic up to ornish diet which I think is like 80% carbohydrate and what they found was over the long term none of them were any better than the other ones for long-term weight loss and if we look at now those are kind of living studies so people say well you know maybe people weren't sticking to those there's another metaanalysis done that's one of my favorite studies when we get in these arguments about low carb versus this um looked at equating calories in protein varying carbohydrate and fat and it's important to equate calories and protein obviously calories if we don't equate energy we're comparing to Apples to oranges and then protein is thermogenic so diets higher in protein tend to cause more lean mass retention and tend to be more energetically expensive so if we don't equate for that sometimes we can see differences in Fat Loss even with equal calories but when they do that and they vary carbohydrate and fat uh this metaanalysis used only studies where at minimum all the meals were provided to participants so very controlled feeding studies where adherence is very high uh up to metabolic W studies where they basically have them in food jail and found that there is essentially no practical difference in Fat Loss between these diets in fact it actually slightly favored the lowfat diets um but it was like 16 grams of extra fat loss per day it was clinically irrelevant right like I would never tell somebody do that diet because you might get like more fat loss per day like do the one that you can stick to so on a mechanistic level we don't really see a difference in fat loss and there doesn't appear to be like on the average differences in inherence the only time we really see big differences in inherence in studies is when there's some kind of support like when they're talking to a dietitian every month or every week that sort of thing that does increase uh adherence but overall no real difference in adherence rates but when they stratify for adherence so all these different diets don't produce differences in long-term weight loss but when they stratify for adherence regardless of diet type it's like a linear effect and so what that says is the best diet for you as an individual is the one that you can adhere to consistently and to lose weight I like what Peter AA says he kind of puts weight L types of dietary strategies in three different buckets you have uh tracking restriction kind of where you're tracking your calories or your Macros and you're restricting that way you have dietary restriction where you're doing low fat low carb uh clean eating paleo insert whatever type of diet and then you have time restriction so intermittent fasting alternate day fasting any sort of those buckets and those are kind of your three strategies that you can you can use you have to do some form of restriction all those involve some form of restriction I like tracking macros and calories because I am brutally absurdly consistent when I can kind of eat the foods I like but just track it some people hate that some people have a lot of anxiety around tracking it feels very cumbersome to them for me it it's like five minutes a day and it doesn't matter some people like time restriction they do it and they go it didn't even feel like I was dieting you tried it you didn't like it right some people they like the dietary restriction well if I just eat these Foods I lose weight okay cool as long as any of those can be sustainable for you you have to practice some form of restriction but you should choose the form of restriction that feels the least restrictive for you and also don't assume that it will feel the same for everyone else because this is where we get into the diet Wars right where you have people have a diet that worked for them and now they're trying to evangelize everyone and get them on their team and it's it's actually really I've actually dug into the psychology of this a lot because after I've had so many of these internet debates I'm like why do people get like this because I'm diagnostic I mean I pretty much I don't want to take credit for flexible dieting and it If It Fits your Macros but I would say that no one would argue that I was one of the main people who popularized it I don't have if ym or flexible dieting in my bio like because I'm I don't like I recognize that that wasn't for everybody but when I first started it I was in bodybuilding and I found that just I would try to eat clean but then I was binging every time I got exposed to like pizza or my friends would you know have a dessert or whatever I was like binge eating and I was I had this Epiphany I'm like you know I'm pretty sure it's not like the the if I had one slice of pizza that's probably not what's harming me it's probably the fact I'm eating the whole pizza right and so I just started allowing myself kind of what I wanted but tracking everything and all of a sudden I got brutally consistent and started getting results very consistently so why do you think it is that people are so tribal about their diet of choice so I foolishly believed oh this is the solution for everybody this is why people be consistent so it started out very innocently and then um I think there's an insecure element of it of people feel insecure about what they're doing they're trying to get people on their team so they can feel better about it I think because there there's an inherent uncertainty in any sort of diet right science yeah okay and people are tribal by nature and it's a little bit of I think what I like to call the Tim TBO effect so do you remember when Tim TBO was getting into the NFL so are you familiar with him at all okay so Tim TBO was a Heisman Trophy winner who uh played in the NFL for I think probably like seven eight seasons and the the if you listen to the critics of him it was he has a horrible release angle his mechanics are terrible as a quarterback he really should be a tight end he doesn't belong playing quarterback and he had low accuracy and all this kind of stuff um and the people who were on his side were like well he's a high a trophy winner and he's got a bunch of heart and he works hard and very positive guy like he was also very religious and he was very outspoken about his religiousness he became very polarizing not really for the the things he said but I looked at this with Fascination because he had he had won a playoff game as an NFL quarterback and he he he kind of had these games where he just have horrible horrible games and then somehow at the end he would will himself to Victory find a way to get to Victory and when the chips were down it just seemed like that guy found a way to pull it out so I kind of became a little bit of a fan he seemed like a very positive guy when you knew people who knew him they're like he's legit he's a legitimately nice guy and so I kind of was like oh I kind of like this guy but then I would read the things that people would say that were negative towards him and I would get kind of defensive by like well hey you're how many how many playoff games did your quarterback won right but if you were somebody who was on the other side and maybe you're not that invested in it you're like yeah I mean this guy a that great he's got good players around him like you know look at his arm mechanics he's horri you know it's really bad but then you got this whole like group of people who are he's the best quarterback of all time he should be the NFL MVP and you go are you insane and so I think we drive each other apart with the strongest like we we do this in politics religion whatever we take the most straw man interpretation of the other person's argument and argue against that and it drives us further apart I mean I can I have so many examples of this when I'll put up a a just talking about what we were just talking about saying you know it doesn't look like fat loss is different when you equate calories protein and somebody will say oh so we can just eat poptarts all day and lose weight and I'm like I don't know where I ever said that like eating Pop-Tarts all day was a a good strategy for weight picking yeah we'll get back to talking to Lane in one minute but first I need to tell you about marrick health I wanted to get my blood work done in America and after I asked around I found out that marck health is the most sophisticated and comprehensive service out there I loved it so much that I actually reached out to the owner to partner with them because that's how much I believe in what they do you might have heard that I took my testosterone from 495 to6 last year and that was done with the guidance of mar Health without putting me on trt best of all they walked me through my entire lab report and gave me actionable recommendations to improve my health and my longevity they give me suggestions for diet for training for supplementation and if I needed them Pharmaceuticals basically it's like having a super well-resourced blood expert in your corner at all times right now you can get the exact same panel and medical oversight I got by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to Mari health.com slod wisdom and using the code modern wisdom a checkout for 10% off that's MK health.com modern wisdom and modern wisdom a checkout so two things that come to mind for that there's an idea from evolutionary psychology called a failure of cross- seex mind reading and it explains how men and women don't understand what the other is thinking from a mating perspective so there's something called the overperception and under perception bias on average men seem to think that women are more interested in them than they are and on average it's shocking yeah I know Shakara and on average women seem to think that men are less interested than they are so when in a relationship you say you know that your boss fancies you right to your wife and the wife goes no you're being stupid he's like [ __ ] yes he does right and I I know that he does either of you could be wrong but I would bet on the guy being right the woman that says like you know that or that your girlfriend that say something like I don't think that Caroline's that into you you're like no you seen the way that she like looks at me and stuff and she's like she's just being friendly it's like no no no no you don't get like you don't get it I would rely on the woman with regards to that so the way that you see the world because of your biases the person that you are your unique Constitution you use that theory of mind and Port it onto other people as well failure of cross seex mind reading now this is like a failure of cross diet mind reading because your diet worked for you you assume that it is the thing that will work for everybody else second point I think that one of the big reasons why diet is such a breeding ground for very vehement uh uh aggravating adversarial conversation is because implicit in your choice of diet is your health and Downstream from your health is your longevity and downstream from that is when you're going to die so I think that a attack on your diet is an implicit attack that you're going to die sooner I think it reminds people it's like a denial of death uh uh uh protection strategy right that no no no no no my thing is right and if you attack that you're saying basically I've got it wrong and I'm close at moving myself closer to death or I could be moving myself more slowly to death if I changed it therefore I'm there's a lot of existential uh passion that's tied up in that uh and then that kind of gets folded into a broader conversation of if you if I think that you're getting it wrong and you're popularizing a particular approach that this has a blast radius where other people might do your thing which is going to kill them more more quickly so I think that that from a psychological standpoint there's definitely two elements in the failure of cross- diet mind reading and uh this sort of denial of death approach approach I think that both of those are interesting another interesting element I just had a conversation with Johan Harry who's written the book magic pill about the dangers of asmic and and and and where that might end up give me your opinion on these new gp1 agonists like asmic I think I have a very balanced take on this so if you look at the research data I mean they work they work they're very powerful appetite suppressants and people on average lose about 15 to 20% of their body weight um people have concerns about thyroid cancer um those studies are in rodents we know that less than 50% of those studies can translate to humans I think rodents also have a very special kind of receptor on the thyroid that humans don't have and I think that the dosages that they're being give to the rats are also very high yes well and and and this is um we could do a whole another like section of how people cite studies and people have no way of knowing like whether it was even a relevant study versus something that was like a very relevant study that was done in humans um but there so there's that and then there's the well people lose more lean mass we have to worry about that if you look at the amount of lean mass that people lose while on OIC or glp1 mimetics it's very similar to the amount of lean mass that people lose when they just do diet with no resistance training or exercise and so these studies so far really haven't combined those and looked at POS zic plus resistance training correct um there was a study looking at exercise plus OIC and then people getting off OIC that showed that exercise uh basically helped people maintain their weight loss from OIC much better than people who didn't uh do exercise a rebound effect in many of the studies about AIC when people come off yeah yeah and and not probably for the reasons that people think exercise is good for weight loss but not because of the calories burned because you really have to do a lot of exercise to get a big calorie burn but what exercise tends to do is actually sens sensitize your brain to satiety signals so there was a very classic study in Bengali workers done in the 1950s and again I may butcher the specifics but the the Crux will be right they looked at sedentary lightly active moderately active and heavily active like heavy labor jobs and then looked at how much do people eat so there was no intervention they were just looking at how much did they eat they found from lightly active to heavily active they pretty much perfectly compensated their for increased energy expenditure by eating more but sedentary was disregulated sedentary ate more than lightly active and I think more than moderately active and so you have this j-shaped curve so when you are sedentary the Research indicates that it may actually disregulated your appetite signals and so since many people are sedentary now one of the things that gp1 does if you listen anecdotally to people is they say it took the food noise out of my brain I stopped thinking about food so much and I think it may be having like kind of that effect that that you know sensitizing us to society signals and gp1 is a society signal in and of itself in the brain and also it slows down GI motility which makes you feel more full um what are you worried about so I think for obese people I mean honestly for a long time we have been waiting for this we like when is the pharmaceutical industry going to come up with something that helps solve the Obesity crisis it looks like they got it and everybody's pissed off about it I mean I think my concerns are the following it still needs to be done with lifestyle intervention as well um especially if people don't want to be on it indefinitely so if people and listen I'm not making a judgment towards people who decide that they're going to be on it indefinitely that's that is their choice uh and honestly like despite the cost of it it if it gets people to lose the weight that it's been getting people to lose in the studies it will save us tons of money now the government will probably go blow it somewhere else but it will save us tons of money on Healthcare I I more worry on an individual level that if we are not instituting good eating behaviors and lifestyle change facilitated along with this that people will go from eating a lot of crappy food to eating a little crappy food yeah and still not getting enough dietary fiber uh still not getting enough protein and I think one of the things that happens is when you're not hungry protein is probably one of the last things you're actually reaching for and fiber is one of the last things you're reaching for so I I am on board with people especially obese people using glp1 mimics because it works and it will save us a lot of money and everybody's some people are like oh these things have all these side effects honestly the side effects are pretty mild when you look at some of the other pharmaceutical drugs out there that have approval I mean I mean if the thyroid things ends up being a thing okay but we have no indication of that in humans yet the worst thing we're worried about is some people get nausea um have maybe have um gastroparesis there's there's some people who have reported that but name me one really effective drug that doesn't have side effects I mean this is there for every gim me there's a gotcha one of the big push backs that Johan got in the episode that I did with him was uh basically this sort of uh like an kind of like a naturalistic fallacy I think or like a naturalistic assumption um we are offering people an easy way out why can't they just eat less and move more these fat [ __ ] like you're supplementing sublimating willpower with this you know external thing which is helping them to suppress sociiety and almost like kind of almost like they don't deserve to be thin they don't deserve to lose the weight because they're not putting the work in what do you say to those sorts of criticisms why are you so lazy that you need a car to go to work just walk there just take longer so I I think let me go back 20 years when I got to graduate school I was very much of the opinion at that time that if you were obese it was because you chose to be and you were lazy and obesity as a choice I think there is personal responsibility to change if you want to change but there is a lot more that goes into food than just this is a choice this is food is a pervasive theme throughout our entire Society it's not just oh I'm choosing this or this it's this is how I connect with people when was the last time you went to an event that didn't have food when was like do you just like go out randomly if your friends and sit around no you go out and have a meal you know um and so one of the other things where that breaks down as well when people go well they just don't have enough willpower is I've met some really successful really smart people who were obese you're telling me they don't have willpower I mean maybe in that one area there's also a lot of really in shape shredded people who are in tons of debt but what what happened with The Willpower why isn't it translating because this stuff is more complicated than just a very black and white just want it more and if we look like a great example where I started to kind of change my mind on things is we all COPE in trauma with different ways some people become drug addicts some people become work addicts in fact I I heard something once that I thought was interesting that that work addiction is the only thing that you can only kind of addiction you can have that you will be praised for right which actually makes it one of the most dangerous kinds of addictions because you can just justify it in perpetuity um some people maybe the gym too yeah some people get addicted to porn some people whatever have you right some people they find comfort in food and if you look at a study they did a study where they looked at um obese women and found that obese women were 50% more likely to have some sort of sexual assault trauma in their past yep they use the food as a protection strategy if I'm less attractive to the opposite sex it's less likely yeah I'm not going to be able to be as as frail and fragile yeah man it's very interesting I think uh very timely for Johan to release this book there was definitely one of the thing I was quite surprised about was um I think some people accused him of basically doing an infomercial for asmic but there's he spends uh 12 different sections of the book 12 different risks that he's concerned about so I there's I was um I've cultivated an audience of people that are very antic and like high sort of in personal sovereignty and I think that maybe this pushes back against a little bit of that narrative so that that it's not exactly a fully representative sample but I was surprised by that you know we know that obesity is a big problem lots of people like no one has no person in their life that wouldn't do from doing weight my dad my dad would benefit from losing you know like 20 pounds 20 maybe maybe 40 pounds he would benefit from losing that weight so I'm like I don't know I think it's to be seen uh side effects long-term use longitudinal studies how can we tie this in is this dependency is this big farmer owning People's Health but it's the same as the artificial sweetness thing like look at what you are gaining versus what you are losing and to me um Johan's got this nice like a like a taxonomy I suppose he says under 27 BMI he thinks probably no real reason to use it 27 to 35 gray area you need to really sort of think about it carefully 35 are over uh I think on balance I'm not your doctor but this is probably something which will benefit your health rather than hurting it and I was like that seems like a really well balanced approach well really well balanced means that both both extreme sides hate you um unfortunately which is um which he managed to do successfully you just mentioned there about the importance of dietary fiber mhm what do you think about Carnival as a diet speaking of extremes that hate you um so I will give a devil's advocate argument for it that any diet that is going to get people to eat less processed foods and more filling satiating Foods is going to be a diet that does better than the standard American diet so I have no doubt that there are people who go on Carnivore and they get healthier the the question really becomes why did you need to do that could you do that and still have some dietary fiber and get the benefits of that um and so I have had Carnivor Carnivor carnists push back against me well dietary fiber is just it's just filler you don't even absorb it in fact in carnivore I don't even poop as much because uh you know I'm absorbing so many more nutrients and blah blah blah blah and I always find these really like Olympic level mental gymnastics interesting because it's not like we don't just have tons of studies in humans looking at this with actual hard human health outcomes and what those what the criticism of a lot of these studies is because one of the downsides of nutritional studies is it's hard to do multi-year randomized control trials you going to lock someone in diet jail for three years at a time yeah I mean I think people have this misunderstanding that there's just like this random pool of people that are test subjects for different studies that just sit there waiting patiently for the researchers to come get them and that's their life's purpose and it's like no they're people like you and me who see a flyer and go oh try that and you know a lot of them drop out why because the more controlled you try to make it the less likely people are to do it I mean a great example is people like why didn't they do more studies in bodybuilders and I'm like because they suck as test subjects cuz what happens when you're a bodybuilder who gets randomized to the low protein arm of a protein stud you're immediately dropping out right yeah or if you've got a bias if maybe you think a low carb diet's really good and you get randomized to a high carb diet see you you know so it's hard to do these for long periods of time and keep a level of control so we have to rely on a lot of times shorter term randomized control trials looking at markers of Health that are hopefully predicting longer term Health outcomes and long-term cohort studies now cohort studies are are uh kind of an arm epidemiology you have your cross-sectional studies which are we look at this population and this population who has a greater rate of X disease and what differences do they have well those are difficult because there's a lot of confounding variables cohort studies are a little bit better because what you're doing is you're tracking the same people over say 20 30 years you're not doing any intervention but you're seeing okay these people ate more fiber versus these people and had this outcome now what I'll say is the reason I became quite convinced of the healthfulness of dietary fiber is because are you familiar with a forest plot so a forest plot um this became famous because James wils was on Joe Rogan debating uh the game changers a long time ago and kept bringing up a forest plot because uh the person he was debating didn't know what it was uh essentially if you have a meta analysis of studies and you have a center line which which means no effect no overall effect of treatment and then on one side of the line You'll have favors X treatment other side of the line favors why treatment and then you plot each of the studies where they land so if you have like this side is favors dietary fiber for decreasing cardiovascular disease mortality cancer literally every study is on this side positive yes right you might have some that like didn't show a significant effect or not a huge fact but they're all on this side M um I am not aware of any cohort study that showed fiber or fruits and vegetables did not have at least a neutral and most of them show a very positive dose response effect on mortality cardiovascular disease and do response so meaning uh if they do what's called a meta regression so they look at the different um levels of dietary fiber intakes in these cohorts then try to compare that to their risk of mortality cardiovascular disease and cancer they can basically say for example in one metaanalysis that was recent I think it was with over a million subjects for every 10 gram increase in dietary fiber there was a corresponding 10% decrease in the relative risk of mortality cancer and cardiovascular disease now before anybody goes well I'm just going to eat 100 grams of fiber a day and live forever we are talking about relative risk and it's important to point out the difference which a lot of people don't get when they hear these things reported the on the news so when I say a 10% decrease in the risk of mortality if we're looking at say and I'm just making up numbers here but if we're looking at say a 60y old person and their risk of mortality in the next 10 years is 20% right it's probably not it's probably different than that but let's say it's 20% a 10% relative risk reduction is an absolute reduction of 2% because 2% is 10% of 20% so for every 10 G increment of increased fiber they showed a 10% decrease in the risk of these different diseases and mortality if there are other things that there are claims about like for example PE people on Carnivore it's so funny they'll be like why are you trying to you know discourage high quality animal protein consumption I'm like sorry not to sound Curt but do you know who I am like have you done any like background on me my research was funded my lab was funded by the national Dairy Council the egg nutrition center and the national Catalin beef Association if anybody has a bias towards highquality animal protein it's me I'm just not crazy and when we look at say a great example is red meat so even the who has categorized red meat as probably carcinogenic um I don't necessarily believe it's carcinogenic based on the research that's out there and the reason is is a lot of studies don't show that it's carcinogenic a lot of these cohort studies don't see where the getting it from well I would say the the over half of them do but some of them don't and if you look at the confounding variables of people who are high red meat consumption it's not like we're talking about bodybuilders eating sirloin you know most of them are getting it from like processed sources of red meat and uh red meat one of the problems with these studies as well is if you are eating more of one thing you're typically eating less of another thing and actually red meat intake is actually quite a good proxy for poor diet quality so there was a really good study from I think maximova in Canada Alberta Canada in 2020 and they looked at trying to control for diet quality so they did uh basically tertile so three different levels of red meat intake with three different levels of fruit and vegetable intake and looking at the incidence of cancer and what they found was that at low intakes of fruit and vegetable intake yes there was an association of high meat red meat intake with cancer but at high levels of fruit and vegetable intake and high levels of red meat consumption the risk of cancer was actually lower than low red meat consumption with high fruit and vegetable consumption because people who are eating a lot of meat and a lot of fruit and vegetables they're probably not eating a lot of lowquality foods cuz you just don't have a bunch left in your diet for that we'll get back to talking to Lane in one minute but first I need to tell you about Maui Nei Maui Nei venison brings the healthiest red meat on the planet direct to your door no one accidentally hits their protein gos and if you're in a constant state of travel or being busy their venison sticks make it unbelievably easy and tasty to hit your protein Target every day not only do they provide the most nutrient-dense and protein dense red meat avail available they are the only stress-free 100% wild harvested red meat on the market it's an operation that is one of its kind in the world it's actively combating the environmental destruction caused by Maui's Axis deer overp population which literally looks like wildfire from a helicopter so by eating meat you are helping the environment how about that get the healthiest red meat on the planet delivered direct to your door and get 20% off your first order by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to Maui venison tocom slod wisdom and using the code modern wisdom a checkout that's M AI Nui venison docomo wisdom and modern wisdom a checkout so is the primary concern or the biggest risk that you're worried about from carnivore low dietary fiber that's one and then a lot of them are choosing very fatty cuts of meat that are high in saturated fat and there is a big debate amongst diet tribes about the whether saturated fat is bad for you um because it raises LDL cholesterol and there's a debate around LDL cholesterol and I will give you the Devil's Advocate argument for that and then I will give you what the research says so in 2005 when I was in grad school I was in the camp of LDL doesn't really matter it's more about the ratio of HDL to LDL the good cholesterol to bad cholesterol and if you look at the research studies the there was a lot of kind of disagreement in the research literature and a lot of the randomized control trials didn't really show an effect of lowering saturated fat on the risk of heart disease but here's the problem with randomized control trials is they're very short heart disease is not something that develops in two years it develops in 40 years heart disease is not the difference between you dying at age 40 and age 80 it's a difference between you dying at age 80 and age 72 and so a lot of these randomized control trials they're using I mean the Minnesota coronary experiment is one that gets cited by carnivore people a lot uh Paul solino sites a lot and it was a Ina and the big the strengths of it were it was impatient they were psychiatric patients and they either fed them high polyunsaturated fats or high saturated fat diets and looked at the differences in heart attack rates or heart disease now the what they don't tell you about that experiment is those people were not housed consecutively the average duration of each sub of the subjects in that study which was two years and they were like I think the average age was like mid-40s it's not super common for people in their 40s to get heart attacks even those who are inclined to get it and they were in and out of these psychiatric Wards they weren't consecutively and the polyunsaturated fat group included trans fats which at the time now are largely out of the food supply but back then were a big part of the food supply so it's not really an experiment that carries a lot of weight and again it's only two years it's hard to see differences if you and I invest in a mutual fund so with LDL cholesterol you're looking at a lifetime exposure risk really how much are courses through your arteries over the course of your life I like to compare it to investing if you and I invest in if you invest in a mutual fund that gets 8% and I invest in one that gets 9% if we look out in two years I mean I'll have a little bit more money but practically you'll go it's no difference but if we look out in 40 years I'm gonna have a lot more money than you right and so heart disease is kind of the same it takes time to really see these differences and people on Carnivore wall say well I feel great you can feel great right up until you have a heart attack like heart disease is not something you feel now so looking at LDL cholesterol what really changed my mind on it because again I was in that camp was what were called the melan randomization trials that started coming out around 2008 2009 now mandelian randomization is where they look at your your body people's bodies naturally have like polymorphisms on genes so you'll have people who secrete naturally more or less LDL but these polymorphisms don't affect other areas of metabolism so what you have essentially is a great lifelong randomized control trial of people exposed to more LDL cholesterol versus people exposed to less LDL cholesterol and when you look at that the exposure to Lifetime LDL cholesterol you can basically draw a straight line through it between that and the incidence of heart disease and if we look at a mechanistic level LDL cholesterol they have shown mechanistically penetrates the endothelium it's actually not the LDL necessarily it's the fact that it contains a protein called apolipoprotein B which apolipoprotein B is what actually damages the endothelium and allows it to penetrate and then deposit the cholesterol there now some people have said well it's not LDL you don't have to worry about the large LDL you got to worry about the small oxidized LDL I don't know if you've ever heard this this argument it's a very popular argument um and so what is true is that small oxidized LDL can more easily penetrate the endothelium but it deposits less total cholesterol large LDL does not penetrate it as easily but it still penetrates it but it deposits more LDL or sorry deposits more cholesterol per LDL particle the net effect is both are e equally atherogenic and so if it's funny I tell people when something aligns with our personal beliefs our level of skepticism is basically nothing when something opposes our personal beliefs it's like this right are we just are so skeptical and so I tell carnivores all the time if red meat had the the the data that fiber has behind it to support it being a health food you all would lose your freaking Minds anytime anyone even suggested that it might be bad for you but because it doesn't align with your personal belief system you won't hear a bar of it what do you make of the meat and fruit fruit trajectory that seems to be Paul saladino's new thing that he's landed on uh meat and fruit and honey is another thing that I'm seeing and hearing a lot more what do you make of this I mean listen like I I think uh fruits and vegetables are are great meat and fruit not fruit yeah CU vegetables have toxins in them uh by the way you can find toxins in Fruit too this is like the the influencer diet fear template to find an isolated chemical in a food and scare people with it um I mean I think it's I think it's better than just meat by itself but I think what's interesting is when he um when he said he went to fruit he said he felt better because of an electrolyte perspective um you felt better because you're eating carbohydrate now Paul and you have some muscle glycogen and liver glycogen and and you're feeling better doing exercise um there's not a ton of electrolytes in fruit or honey um yes the sodium transporter in the gut is co-transport with glucose so yes maybe you get a little bit more sodium transport but like you're getting plenty of sodium like that's not a you're not feeling better from electrolyte perspective so I did think it was I I applaud him for changing his view I also find it kind of um after you've told people repeatedly for years that this is the optimal diet for human Health while you were feeling bad um so I I I struggle with giving credit for that um I you know I've interacted with Paul quite a bit I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy and I think he probably is is trying to help I think the way he goes about it is relatively unhelpful um but yeah I think if you go from eating just meat to actually including some carbohydrate I'm I'm sure you'll feel better but I just find this um entire Trope around toxins in food to be ridiculous um what is someone's listening and says oh I I quite like eating meat it's something that seems to work for me I'm a bodybuilder I struggle to take my protein whatever uh dietary fiber sounds useful and and and important what are the easiest best sources of dietary fiber that people can add into their diet right now I mean I mean the data on fruits and vegetables is is great are there some fruits and vegetables that are better yeah I mean you know I don't like saying better or best or things like that um but I would say like berries are much more fiber dense than say like bananas um they tend to be also like lower carbohydrate berries are um apples pretty good source especially if you're you know eating the skin uh that contains a lot of the uh I believe pectin um vegetables of course uh cruciferous vegetables are very fiber dense uh so like uh broccoli cauliflower those sorts of things um but I mean honestly I think the average American gets 13 grams of fiber intake per day and I mean if you look at the the drop off in mortality from going from like 10 grams of fiber a day to like 20 or 30 grams of fiber a day you'd be getting your fiber up I mean there are some kind of sources that you wouldn't necessarily think about that are good sources of fiber I mean this is going to get me in trouble cuz people are going to say I'm just a food shill for the diet industry um but uh I mean whole grains I they're good sources of fiber and if you look at the data on whole grains mortality cardiovascular disease um cancer again you won't find any studies showing that they're negative for those things now people will say well you saying people go out eat Lucky Charms no I I'm you know I'm saying like oatmeal you know some cereal that are like more intact sources of fiber but again I I'm I'm somebody who's like let's not let the enemy of good or better be Perfection right and there's so much like Diet evangelism out there hey if somebody eats a cereal that's fortified with fiber or some bread that's fortified with fiber maybe not the best possible thing they could do I'd rather them get you know fruits and vegetables but if that's what they can do then that's what they can do what about beans yeah legumes great source of fiber as well they come with some protein as well um yeah all those are great sources of fiber I mean one that I use that is kind of non-traditional is airpop popcorn I Love Popcorn and it's actually very very high in fiber no way yeah yeah like um you get a I don't want to say a cup but like a serving which might have like 50 grams of carbohydrate we have anywhere depending on the the particular brand and Source like six to 10 G of fiber in it uh and it's nice in that it takes a while to eat you know like um super high volume for low yeah you could have you know you can have 50 grams of carbs from popcorn must be a [ __ ] ton of popcorn that's a big old Bowl right whereas like 50 grams of carbs from a sweet potato I mean you can eat that in 3 minutes from Haribo you can eat that in a minute oh yeah yeah yeah we'll get back to talking to Lane in one minute but first I need to tell you about ag1 90% of Americans are not getting the nutrients that they need every day to be healthy we know that food is always first many of us eat well some days even on most days no one has the perfect diet and science keep showing us that our bodies need more nutrients and that they need this support consistently every day to build a truly healthy body and get your whole body operating in a higher healthy Baseline the average supplement is tested for 10 contaminants ag1 is tested for 950 plus it's NSF certified for sports meaning that even Olympic athletes can use it best of all there is a 90-day moneyb guarantee so you can buy it and use it for 90 days a full 3 months every single day and if you do not like it they will give you the entirety of your money back that's how confident they are that you'll love it right now you can try ag1 and get a free years supply of vitamin D3 and K2 plus five free ag1 travel packs and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to drink a1.com wisdom that's drink a1.com wisdom so I mean again like I'm all for like those non-traditional sources but I would say like there's probably something to Mother Nature's kitchen of talk to me about some other sleeper foods that you think you know you like eating this most people listening are probably going to eat some blend of we go out for dinner or I get a combination of carbs fats and and proteins in one form or another what are some of the things where you go if you were able to switch this out for that on a typical sort of meal plate for someone that's remotely healthy relatively healthy trying to watch their diet here a couple of little adjustments that you can make that I think have got a lot of bang for their Buck what are some of the Top Foods absolutely I like I like where this is going uh the first thing is you know if you can ask the waiter to just use less oil when they cook like that is one of the biggest sources of added calories I mean I was out at um a restaurant last night that list their calories on there I'm like was it Cheesecake Factory no no but it was uh God damn it Lane uh Twin Peaks Twin Peaks okay um uh don't go to Cheesecake Factory women don't like if you take them on dates there apparently have you seen that whole thing incorrect oh well well well uh there's like a whole like uh Tik Tock thing going around of like a woman saying it's a red flag no it's a red flag if a woman doesn't want to go to I agree with you godamn it um so but like oil yeah I'm looking at the the menu and it's like 1,200 calories for a salad and then you look down well it's got bacon cheese nuts it's got oil in it then it's got the dressing right so okay maybe say hey could you do a half portion of cheese or could you do a half portion of nuts could you leave off the bacon could you uh put the dressing on the side because a lot of times you don't like it gets doused in dressing right like you just do a little bit America I yeah I mean I do that for almost anything like I have a burger that has like um I love um like garlic AI love that but I always ask for it on the side right because I just need a little smear to get the taste I don't need to be drenched in it okay so looking at stuff like oils dressings reducing that what else what are some of the other things and then like when you're picking your cuts of meat you know if you want to get a steak I mean things like filet sirloin tenderloin those are going to be much leaner than say your ribey your T-bone uh your strip steak those sorts of things uh and then when you're like white fish is going to be a very lean typically if it's grilled chicken typically very lean unless it's fried um and again just asking them like hey could you use a little bit less oil um and when it comes to like carbohydrate sources this is one of the the ones where it's if you put rice on a plate the the the view of 50 grams of carbs from Rice versus 100 grams of carbs it's very tough to tell the difference right so what i' tell people is this is where eating in food order can help you um so eat your ve eat your proteins and vegetables first leave your starches for the last so that you're a little bit more full so then you then you can rely a little bit more on your satiety signals right and when it comes to vegetables you can ask for them steamed instead of having them cooked in oil or fried or whatever it may be so you can do some simple switches and usually most restaurants at least in America now if you go to Australia or Europe you might not be as accommodating but America they're usually pretty accommodating um and so you can make those small switches and it will make a big difference and even just like I think being a little bit mindful like if you're somebody who's trying to lose weight like if you know you're going somewhere for dinner do a little bit of Recon look at the menu beforehand if you're curious about like okay what is a fattier cut of meat look up those different cuts of meat and see what the what the macros look like on it um you know look at okay well what do I think might be something I want to try here and and if you're you know I think a good humoristic is if you want to have an alcoholic beverage don't have dessert you know oh you get to pick one of the two yeah if you want or if you want to have dessert don't have alcohol or um the other thing I tell people is if you could just stay engaged with your own satiety signals are you eating because you're still hungry or are you eating because you feel like you need to finish it because I can promise you the you're not paying for the food when you go out to eat you're paying for the experience because if you were just paying for the food I mean you can go down to McDonald's and get some stuff that tastes great for five bucks you know what I mean you're paying for an experience so value the experience and if you're full don't feel the need to finish everything like be in tune with your own satiety signals I think that is something that's really lost on a lot of people is just asking themselves am I eating this because I feel like like I should finish it because I paid for it or am I eating this cuz I'm actually hungry I think that's very important and this is one of the things that I like the evidence-based movement I like meno you Dr Mike you know it's it's a cool movement yeah they're okay yeah they they're all right um but one of the things that I think is really important especially when we're talking about diet diet mechanisms conversations online is how to get things tactically down like that you know you can throw studies at me all day about legumes and dietary fiber and [ __ ] LDL cholesterol but hey okay cool Mr science man what do I do when I go to Cheesecake Factory what do I do when I go to Dean Italian downtown in Austin like just tell me what like what's a good way to take all of this Research into something that's applicable and I like that presumably just being like we don't need the bread this evening we'll just start with the meal is a good idea because that bread that bread I don't know where it goes doesn't go to my stomach because it takes up no room it just it's like a Harry Potter's [ __ ] closet and it just disappears out the out somewhere well another thing is like show up not super hungry you know like make sure you've had some filling Foods throughout the day this is a good one so um when you go shopping if it if you go shopping in a a supermarket as opposed to ordering online and you're absolutely starving hungry when you go at the front of pretty much every Supermarket there will be you know sort of a to go fridge sandwiches and other bits and pieces grab yourself a you know $4 sandwich that's got a good set of macros on it and seems to be relatively well balanced eat that before you go shopping your shopping bill is now just being chopped in half that's the best $4 investment that you can do because you're not you're hungry and you're walking around of course I want that and I want this and I'll have that o I'll get that you go oh I I just doubled all of the [ __ ] that I have in my cupboards and I didn't really to I I I'm a big fan of ordering online now just because I have like I just go back and I just reorder the same things every week D it's so good it's so it's so good all right so going to the other side of the fence we've spoken about carnivore is it possible to build muscle on a vegan diet great question the answer is yes yes you can build muscle on a vegan diet it's if you're goal so I always have to like unframe it out of like my mind frame which is I want to be the most muscular strongest human being I possibly can and remember that not everybody is like that in fact most people aren't like that they just want to build some muscle and look a little bit better and feel stronger sure you can absolutely build muscle on a vegan diet now will it take a little bit more uh wherewithal probably is it the absolute best diet for muscle building um it can be but you have to be more targeted with it in terms of making sure you're getting enough total protein and probably trying try to pump your protein quality up a little bit for most people who are like if they're vegans and their bodybuilders I'll say you're probably going to want to use some kind of isolated source of protein uh it can be vegan protein but you're going to want to probably use an isolated source of protein and and the reason being that um not only is vegan sources of protein typically lower in amino acids that are anabolic promoting like Lucine which is the amino acid that's been shown to increase muscle protein synthesis um they also in intact sources of plant protein it's not as bioavailable as an isolated source of protein like a like a protein powder for example because some of the protein is bound up in the fibrous material of the plant now cooking can make it more bioavailable but typically not nearly as much as like an animal protein or or an isolated source of protein but I mean really the big thing is if you're getting enough total protein you know say 2 gram per per kilogram of body weight I mean the research says that you're going to build as much muscle so you can um the the what I would say is it's just maybe a little bit more difficult especially on like a calorie deficit because the if you're especially if you're trying to do all intact sources of protein like whole food sources of protein because now you're getting the calories from protein along with calories from carbohydrate because they come along for the ride you can't isolate them as effectively as a steak or a set of eggs or whatever corre what are your main concerns about somebody that's on a vegan diet uh I think the main concern is I have about pretty much any diet is if if you if you do vegan the right way it can be very healthy just like if you do keto the right way it can be very healthy where you're using mostly unprocessed sources of food but when you become a diet evangelist it can become very unhealthy because you tie the identity to the vegan portion of that and so I remember watching the game changers and they're talking about all the health promoting effects of the vegan diet and then they're showing a scene where they're like having them eat vegan chicken wings and vegan mac and cheese and I'm like you're missing the point here um and by the way you can't like why are you trying to have it both ways here it's either Health promoting now I'm not saying you can never have fun foods like that or anything like that of course like nobody should be worried about being 100% all the time but just like without any Nuance to that well if the ideology is based around Whole Foods from nature natural etc etc and then you try to recreate your version of the very food that you're trying to run away from or disparage right that seems to sort of turn the bar stool upside down well and keto does the same thing like I said we we've seen where like the ketogenic diet is not Superior for fat loss if you're equating calories and protein uh we have really tightly specific studies looking at that like metabolic W trials looking at that um now there's keto ice creams that have more calories than regular ice creams and it's like no no like you're missing the point here like the whole point is if you do keto where you're eating like a lot of filling satiating Foods you're going to eat less calories and you'll you'll lose body fat do you really think a keto ice cream is going to help you facilitate that like no I if you want a treat but just get the regular ice cream if you want to treat you know it seems to me with the with the vegan diet that it is uh practically a little bit more complex to eat it well than most other diets I have a bunch of friends who have gone vegan for a variety of reasons and were you know evangelists for that but said in retrospect after stopping look I'm sure that a well-balanced vegan diet can give you everything that you need but the level of hurdles that I needed to overcome in order to be able to hit the macronutrients that I wanted to get to it was so restrictive that I really found that quite hard I'm not sure if the same would be said for uh other diets yeah I mean uh I think like rich rooll and I actually had this kind of like discussion where he was kind of like well couldn't you make that argument for getting enough dietary fiber on say an omnivore diet because if you're eating more meat maybe you're eating less fiber by default I think any diet needs to have some mindfulness behind it I think the thing with veganism is if you are being really strict with it there are things that might show up that are just more apparent which like so for example om theore diet maybe you're not eating as much fiber but you're not going to feel that difference really quickly if you're not getting enough vitamin B12 or iron you're going to feel that pretty quick you like well in a few months right because you're going to have way less energy you're not going to feel great but again I think uh one of the tropes that I've really tried to get away from with people is like hey you can supplement it's okay you know like just like round it out like if you're worried you know and it's like um it's funny cuz I had a carnivore kind of argue like well you couldn't eat just this food and get everything you get from steak I'm like why do I need to pick one food or one food group to just eat that to justify a diet that seems like a false dichotomy to me right and that's what you find with a lot of these diet tribes is they have to like force these really like black and white scenarios to make their argument work and you know one of the things in science is like uh it's not really aam's Razer but you know aams Razer is basically like all things being equal the hypothesis that requires the least amount of assumptions is usually true which Layman translated is the simplest answer is usually true um also the hypothesis that requires the most stringent protocols to prove it to be true is the flimsiest hypothesis and usually not cuz you're making arbitrary rules that fit your particular prior right okayo what about soy does soy make you soy should we yeah should should we worried about soy so there was actually like I think two metaanalyses done now in men looking at testosterone showing that at least with a few servings of soy per day no effect on testosterone or estrogen so at least in men it doesn't appear to do much now and I I don't want to get this wrong uh my scientific friends if I butcher it please feel free to comment on this um in I believe premenopausal women it has been shown to have an effect on some sex hormones but I don't know if it's a a good bad or neutral effect it's soy girl that we actually need to be worried about not soy boy apparently but in men doesn't seem to have an effect at least in the you know two to three servings per day range you've mentioned it a couple of times to day I hear this word thrown around on the internet all the time what the [ __ ] bioavailability uh so basically if you ingest a certain amount of a certain food how much of that of the nutrients from that wind up in circulation which nutrient are you talking about all right is it as big of a deal as everyone makes out so like let's take protein for example right so if I'm looking at protein B availability and I take in 25 grams of say a protein source how much of that 25 gram actually hits circulation how much gets absorbed through the intestinal Lumen that's really what we're talking about when it comes to bioavailability and so uh it does matter I mean again like we're looking at like if you look at certain plant sources of protein they could be 50 60 70% bioavailable in the intact plant form like I said cooking may make take that up a little bit more um whereas if you're looking at animal sources of protein they're usually like 90% and up yeah eggs are very absorbable when they're cooked um whey protein very bioavailable I believe it's almost 100% uh have you looked at blg protein beta lactoglobulin this stuff's so cool dude so um soccer players in Europe are using this at the moment it allows you to get 20 grams of protein in a 100 Mil shot so it's must be very um Cable ultra Ultra concentrated and the reason that they're giving it to athletes that are doing uh like I guess power endurance or like intermittent U cardio work precisely you are training for 4 hours a day but you don't want to have to sync 400 mil of liquid to get your protein in you can put 200 mil and get twice as much protein as you would have done really interesting I think it's like it's just an area that I'm kind of keeping an eye on a little bit that betal lactoglobulin uh stuff seems to be really interesting so related to bioavailability another sort of hot buzzword that's being thrown around at the moment is the gut microbiome how much should people be focused on it is it really the beginning and end of all disease the gut brain axis is it causing all of our autoimmune disorder like I what do you make of the sort of current furor around the microbiome oh I think the microbiome is super interesting um we have more bacterial cells in our body than we do eukaryotic cells um but if you talk to microbiome experts and the there was a gal in the lab where I did my PhD who's doing her Masters at the time who's now a PhD in her Specialties microbiome she's considered one of the foremost experts on it name is Suzanne devota when you talk actually talk to gut microbiome experts they're basically like yeah we got a lot of data we don't really have a good idea of what it all means um and so basically when you talk to them and you read the scientific research we seem to know a few things the first is that fiber is good for the gut microbiome it's the main fuel for what we think the beneficial species of bacteria are and diverse array of fibers and a diverse diet seem to be beneficial for the gut microbiome um eating too many calories appears to be not beneficial for the gut microbiome now we don't know again this where is it the cart or the horse um what I think is likely and again I am tenuously speculating but when you have excess osity and metabolic dysfunction uh you know large atopos sites uh secrete more epines which are inflammatory cyto secreted by the adapost tissue uh they seem to screw up a lot of stuff uh perhaps that's having an effect on the gut microbiome just being fat does lots of things Downstream that you don't want to do to your body but also the diet that makes you become obese is probably not a high quality diet and so that may negatively impact the gut microbiome how much is overeating contributing to that quicker gut motility that you're sort of running things through the gut very quickly I actually don't know the answer to that um so this is one of the things I have a friend who's on tepati which is the second gen of the gp1s yeah uh and he always struggled with uh sibo with microbiome things and his current working theory is that because he's basically eating less and moving food through his system less quickly that it's giving his gut more time possible hard to know that's um like I said I I uh I always tell people if you want to know who like really actually knows what they're talking about know somebody who's willing to say they don't know when it comes to something what else microbiome what else haven't we covered so diverse rray of fibers uh exercise apparently appears to be very good for the gut microbiome so they think it has something to do with the lactate production from exercise that that appears to have a beneficial effect on the gut microbiome and then uh maybe saturated fat may have a negative effect on the gut microbiome not necessarily because of the saturated fat itself but because of the end uh bile products that from saturated fat uh consumption those appear to possibly be toxic to some sorry toxic to some species of beneficial bacteria in the gut microbiome but that's kind of what we know and people have run I mean it is so when I see gut microbiome in someone's Instagram bio usually my first thought is this person's full of [ __ ] um vaginal health expert is often one that that and there was someone who I met a couple of months ago in Austin who uses uh like astral tapping into The Fifth Dimension to inform her crypto Investments uh that was that was a particularly interesting day well this is what people struggle with like going kind of meta real quick this is one of the things people really struggle with online is there's so many experts that have credentials and I'll tell people I'm like usually if you go and like okay this person's making comments about diet they're chiropractor naturopath they're um you know psychiatrist what like expertise does not translate across disciplines I don't to listen to your idea about how to fix the Ukraine or the Border yeah yeah like like somebody was like are you going to comment on Israel and Palestine I'm like absolutely not why what are they eating yeah like like no this is not deficient in a particular yeah this is not my area of expertise I know that they don't like each other and have not liked each other for a long time that's about the extent of what I know about it um you know the the I think war is bad I'll say that you know spicy spicy but but all you need to do is go to this is another question I've asked myself a lot why do really smart people believe really dumb [ __ ] sometimes because people have come to me and said Well Lane this person does this and look like or Elon Musk does this or like people who are intelligent very intelligent people look up Google Nobel prize syndrome and you will find a laundry list of unequivocally some of the smartest people in the history of mankind who changed s like one of the people who discovered DNA and a laundry list of these people believed in things like astrology and Eugenics healing crystals you know what Newton did for like the last three decades of his life no Alchemy adamant that Alchemy was and we're talking about the guy who invented calculus on a dare before age 26 like invented a whole field of mathematics cuz somebody was like no you can't prove that and he was like watch this [ __ ] like yeah so some of the smartest people expertise does not translate across disciplines speaking of expertise what's your thoughts on Gary Breer um I'm sure he's a perfectly nice person um his CL are pretty wild um which ones do you disagree with mostly uh well I've seen him say a video of like 82% of the amino acids from whey protein are converted to carbohydrate or fat I don't know where he got that number I don't know where it comes from and there's nothing to back that up um it would not be I mean that that would you can't even make that claim without understanding somebody's diet on a holistic level because 82% in what context like if I give them 100 gram of whey protein 82% is going to get converted to carbohydrate or fat like how are you measuring that like what isotopic labeling study are you doing to support this because you would need that and over what period of time because that label would be recycled as amino acids are broken down and recycled between various processes in the body so like what he's saying it would be almost impossible to even measure that uh I'm not saying it's impossible but you would be measuring in a very specific ific framework of this much protein in this period of time looking at these tissues using these isotopic labels he did manage to get Dana White to lose a load of weight though right well and I think so Dana actually commented on one of my posts and got really mad and I I actually like Dana like I've watched the UFC for a long time I think he's a smart guy um I think Dana's interpretation of what I said was that I was saying his results weren't real that's not what I'm saying Dana White obviously did a great job changed his lifestyle but he Lo he got healthier because he lost 30 40 pounds He adjusted his lifestyle he exercised consistently probably stopped drinking if he was drinking before I don't I don't know about his habits there but like he should be getting the credit for that not from like grounding with electric rugs and uh red light therapy which there may be some benefits to red light therapy I didn't look at the proposed or the protocol that magician Dana White's weight loss what was it um I I I'm not super familiar with the complete protocol but I mean I know there was like infrared light and coal plunging and again I think one of the like he's some of the cold plunge claims have been pretty extreme like he said there's nothing on the surface of the Earth that will burn fat faster than cold water this is Gary yeah simply not true it's just demonstrably not true like if we look at the studies where people do cold water they the the most of them show no effect on energy expenditure none of them show an effect on fat loss that I've seen and the absolute best that you see is like an increase of like 100 calories in energy expenditure in a day for like an hour or two of exposure in pretty cold water like okay okay and people will say well well see okay but that's not that's not the fastest way to burn fat okay the fastest way to burn fat is to get the gym um or eat less and the other thing is actually one thing that exercise in cold water so I know he's talking about cold plunging but he talked about Michael Phelps and eating so many calories first off I don't believe that Michael Phelps was eating 10,000 calories a day no disrespect to Michael but he's in the pool for like8 hours when would he have this time to eat 10,000 calories 10,000 calories for nobody who's never done it that is a unbelievable amount of food have you ever tried to do a 10,000 calorie challenge no I've gotten to like 6,000 calories in a day and that like it was insane I I was insane um and but one thing that exercise in cold water will reliably do in studies is significantly increase appetite so there's actually quite a few studies to show that it raises appetite so it may not be a great fat loss tool actually now again people will say well I like cold plunging by all means do it I mean there do seem to be some benefits for inflammatory markers and some people say they feel more better more cognitive cool but like why do why can't we just say I like doing this thing instead of like creating this whole narrative around it and what you're also doing is people will view this and it makes Fitness feel really inaccessible to them because like well I I don't have a cold plunge I don't have a cold plunge I don't have red light therapy no no no just like adjust your dietary habits and lifestyle because that's what caused Dana to get healthy like and and again full credit to Dana he should get full credit he he looks [ __ ] he looks great awesome yeah he looks great yeah and as somebody who probably has a very very demanding hectic lifestyle that's not an easy thing to achieve so my thing is no he deserves more of the credit than this other stuff the magic from that and then some of the other things he said was like um you know um you only store you only have 20 minutes of glycogen and then you're out of energy and uh you're you're what happens when you have no I think he said what happens when you have no gluc blood glucose in your in your no glucose in your bloodstream and I did a video response I'm like you're dead when you have no glucose in your bloodstream I I I think he means probably like a baseline level of glucose but still um there's just some things that are said that I'm like there's no real great understanding of some of these um some of this biochemistry here would you debate them for sure for sure I I think like um the like another thing he said is you start to you start to uh liquefy lean muscle in three minutes so uh I think based on nitrogen balance studies as well as actual like studies looking at loss Progressive loss of lean mass from dra trining and things like that uh at best you start to see like a loss of nitrogen from the body in a day or two uh but that's not necessarily like showing lean mass loss you really need like days and weeks to start seeing loss of lean mass so the idea that we're just like you know 20 minutes you're threw all your glycogen and now your body's just chomping away at your muscle that's not super accurate similar to that how big of a deal is insulin more people continuous glucose mon you know it doesn't matter if you're a m 3 you got to wear out the thing and check and all the rest of it how much of a vector for health is insulin Baseline levels of insulin and measures of insulin sensitivity like H ir and hba1c hba1c is probably the for like long-term looking at long-term metabolic health and blood glucose regulation hba1c is probably one of the best metrics and the reason reason is hba1c is glycosilated hemoglobin so certain positions of hemoglobin can be glycosilated so a glucose molecule can get added to it and so I think it's something like you know the actual percentage is like six less than 6% is what you want and probably closer to like five um but what's nice about that is red blood cells take about 90 to 120 days to turn over I think that's it it's several months and so your you can see like short-term changes in basil levels of blood glucose or like um blood glucose responses to things but hba1c is going to actually give you a really good idea of what like your long-term exposure to glucose is and how sensitive you are to insulin because it doesn't turn over very quickly and because it's sensitive to how much concentration is in the bloodstream over time so insulin in response to normal feeding is not something we need to be worrying about in my opinion long-term basil elevations in insulin are what we should be worried about what would that be due to typically uh usually from um insulin insensitivity um that's usually caused by excess body fat and obesity um now people people will say well glucose is toxic in the bloodstream and you got to clear it out and whatnot the problem with looking at these short-term glucose responses and trying to equate them to long-term health is if we're going to play that game I can make a compelling argument that you shouldn't eat fat or protein because you don't want to eat fat because fat imp impedes flow mediated dilation which is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease so a high fat meal will impede flow mediated dilation they can go look up these studies um don't e protein because protein stimulates intor and intor is elevated in many cancers so what are we supposed to do eat ice cubes and photosynthesize so you're looking at the difference between State and trait so this is something that a lot of scientists don't even distinguish between there is a massive difference between acute truncated short-term normal responses versus long-term disregulation let's just take an example of exercise if I told you if you didn't know about exercise let's say exercise didn't exist you have all the other you have all the other knowledge that you have about um the body but you don't know anything about exercise and I said Chris I'm going to make you do something that is going to raise your heart rate raise your blood pressure raise your inflammatory markers raise your reactive oxygen species and raise your cortisol what would you tell me no exactly exercise does all those things in the short term what what happens in the long term the the opposite actually happens so that means we can't use short-term measures to predict long-term outcomes we have to look at long-term outcomes and see what the difference is so when we look at insulin okay I'm thinking of a few different studies here first of all let's just take fat loss right some people will say the low carb Trope is well you can't lose body fat if insulin's High um this is usually the the they've like read one page out of a biochemistry book and closed it and said nope got got all I need which is insulin inhibits lipolysis and decreases fat oxidation so lipolysis is the process of liberating stored body fat from matapos so that it can be available for fat oxidation insulin inhibits both those processes because when carbohydrate is high you have to burn carbohydrate this is part of the Randle cycle and that's you're going to be preferably oxidizing carbohydrate and not dietary fat when insulin is low you're going to be not oxidizing a lot of dietary carbohydrate because it's not available you be oxidizing a lot of dietary fat so shouldn't that mean that low carb diets cause more fat loss and I just talked about how they didn't well how is that possible because you're only looking at one side of the equation so much like protein metabolism the net gain or loss of pro of of lean mass is the balance between protein synthesis and degradation so you have to have synthesis running at a greater rate relative rate than degradation to accumulate lean mass body fat loss or gain is the balance between the amount of fat you store versus the amount of fat you burn so let's look at these different diets on a high carb lowfat diet you will not burn much fat but you also don't store much fat because if we look at metabolic Tracer studies where they give labeled carbohydrate and look at where that label winds up less than 2% of dietary carbohydrate is stored in adapost tissue is body fat over 98% comes from fat so if you were eating a lowfat high carb diet you're not burning much fat but you're also not storing much fat if you're eating a low carb high fat diet you are burning a lot of fat but you're also storing a lot of fat what is going to determine the net deposition in either case will be energy balance good old calories in versus calories out that sounds like an argument for low carb lowfat high protein uh yes but that's just that's just typically called low calorie right because like it's hard to over consume a lot of protein but then the downsides are for fat loss okay if you're not eating much carbohydrate or fat you are going to have a lot of protein oxidation and you don't want to lose weight probably too quickly because it could tap into your fat sto your um your lean mass stores and we also know that the benefits of protein kind of tap out at a certain level so you're also if you're resistance training for your own performance benefits you probably want some carbohydrate as well and carbohydrate is protein sparing as well but again it really boils down to like which do you prefer and can execute on a long-term basis now in terms of overall health there have been a few studies looking at um you know kind of lower carb versus lower fat whatnot and essentially they in the long term they show that if you lose similar amounts of Weights similar if you lose similar amount of weight on low carb versus low fat your improvements of metabolic Health are very similar um they showed this in the diet fit study um they showed this in metaanalysis uh in 2014 I believe the citation is nowed at all where they looked at like cardiometabolic um risk factors in basically balanced diets versus low carb diets that were equated in calories and basically saw that they were equally good um at improving metabolic health so I I'm not really worried about insulin and even even on a more granular level they have done studies looking at where they've actually measured insulin or like C peptide which is axy for 24-Hour insulin and seen like even 50% greater overall insulin and still lose the same amount of fat when calories are equated I want to get Tactical for a second we mentioned a few things and I I'd like tangible tacd takeaways that people can have for stuff like this are there any things small additions to lifestyle uh the way that people eat uh the way that they uh heat or store food any of these different bits and pieces or you think these have uh a lot of bang for their book what are the best nutrition siiz sort of diet hacks that you think this has been a high return for me okay so life can I say lifestyle hacks whatever you want uh activity even like if people knew the disgustingly small amount of exercise you needed to get health benefits from it they would not be so worried about starting I think a lot of people will look at somebody like me and you and think I don't want to go to the gym for an hour or two hours every day you don't have to there was actually a study done where they looked at four minutes of vigorous activity per day okay and it didn't even have to be consecutive it could be broken up into like little bits 4 minutes decrease the risk of cancer incidents by 20% % and I think when they got up to like 10 minutes it was something like 30 or 40% decrease in the risk of cancer what's vigorous exercise um basically like I actually don't recall the actual specific of that study but I think it was like getting your heart rate above like 150 for like that period of time pretty high yeah pretty high um steps like if you look at like when you're doing stuff like if you're listening to a podcast or watching a show just walk or get a if you don't have a treadmill like if you can go outside go outside um one we've already talked about activity sensitizes you to sociiety signal so your diet's going to work better if you're active Okay and steps are so easy to get in through a lot of different mechanisms now if you're somebody who sits at a desk job and you really can't move okay then maybe you're somebody who needs to incorporate some of that more short bursts of physical activity when you're off work to get the benefits from it but for a lot of us you know we work from home um you can get a standing treadmill where you're just kind of like walking at a half mile per hour per day or just like while you're listening to something or like what I do for example like when I go do my social media content for the day today I went out went down by the river walked for an hour while I'm posting my social media content I'm getting work done and I'm getting some activity in and the the drop off in mortality from going from like 2000 which is like sedentary steps per day to 8,000 it is like a linear reduction in the risk of mortality I don't think there's anything magic to steps I think it's just a proxy for activity right okay so get more steps in and also get active get active in terms of vigorous exercise because of the benefits of it and the effects on satiety now diet wise one big one actually I'll give you two one big one stop snacking in the the studies where people lose weight and keep it off one thing that commonly pops up is they do not snack and it's one of the reasons that in dietary recall studies people routinely underreport the nutritional intake because people remember their meals they don't remember their snacks and they've shown that snacking has less impact on satiety than meals even calorie per calorie and a lot of it is around mindfulness because when you're sitting down to a meal you're sitting and you're more engaged with that meal they've shown that people who think about the food they're eating and enjoying each bite that they get a greater level of satiety from that food um this may sound weird but like smaller gender plates people eat less with smaller gender plates because it looks bigger um Chopsticks eat with chopsticks you'll slow down you'll feel more satiated because a lot of times I wonder if a smaller Fork would what yeah yeah yeah I I I don't know the study specifically but I bet it would um but you know a lot of times it just takes time for our satiety signals to catch up with what we're actually doing but if you're shoveling down a bunch of food in five minutes I mean do you really think your satiety signals have had a chance to hit you to let you know hey we're full well that's what competitive eaters actually try and do right they're try put the food in so quickly that it hasn't got to the point where wait whoa what the [ __ ] are you doing yeah so and again like snacks are typically something we're doing when we're like watching TV or we're like grabbing something as we're walking out the door we're being unmindful I mean and the other thing is if you've never done it just for one week I'm not saying do this again for the rest of your life for one week weigh out every single thing you put in your mouth just weigh it out and track the calories and I think for a lot of people it' be like the first time you did your budget and look where your expenses are going you're like wait what the I'm spending how much on eating it's the same as when you track your sleep for the first time yeah it's the exact same and what's crazy is a lot of times this happens on a particle level if we monitor something it changes Behavior right the Heisenberg uncertainty principle we found that when we monitor particles they change their behavior when you monitor people guess what happens they change their behavior but a very a very classic study in nutrition because you everybody says well I eat low calories and I can't lose weight I I think a lot of people think they eat low calories and really believe it a classic study nutrition from 1992 they had people who were self-reported weight loss resistant who were reportedly eating 1,200 calories a day going to a metabolic Ward and they gave them a doubly labeled water I believe which basically the researchers were going to be able to track how much energy they were expending and how much they were consuming and I think they even told the participants we we'll know if you're if you're not telling the truth and um I think I heard a story somewhere from one of the researchers I I could have butchered it but I think they actually said some of the people argued with them afterwards about what they're eating even though they were monitored and the they reported they were eating 1,200 calories a day the average Under reporting the study was 50% the under reported by over 50% their calories they were consuming and they over reported their physical activity by 47% and I think a lot of people will interpret that as an attack and saying that people are lying I don't think that people are necessarily lying I think that most people have a very poor understanding of what a true serving size looks like and if you ever want to be depressed go weigh out a serving size of peanut butter or a serving size of ice cream or a serving size of cereal and you will realize that oh I W I was having a bowl of ice cream which is actually four servings I was having a scoop of peanut butter that's three servings I was having a bowl of cereal that was three and a half four servings and so you really you you think you're eating low calories when in reality you're not and so I think that can be really instructive for people again I'm not saying like listen I still weigh my food I like I have a food scale at home it's not a big deal for me I'm used to doing it I do it when I have access to it when I don't have access to it I don't really worry about it and the one thing it did by doing that for so long is I know serving sizes yeah you know for the most part I can eyeball stuff I have essentially maintained my body weight which I I walk around about 208 lbs um and I compete at 205 in powerlifting and we have two hour weigh-ins so you got to weigh in and then you're lifting in two hours so you can't really cut a bunch of weight and maintain your performance I'm pretty lean at this body weight and it does require like some some work for me to maintain it but I've maintained it for almost like over four years now um and it's not difficult for me and I would say I'm only weighing probably half the time because a lot of times I travel I'm not taking my food what you've done is you you've spent so much time being specific with the way that that's now become your new Baseline for intuitive well and and also I stayed with uh some friends who were influencers a while back and she was um doing her degree in Psychology and she was very focused on food behaviors and she was like I thought it was she's like Lane's really interesting because when he was in control of his meals like at breakfast he's like he ate egg whites you know it was very very low calorie but when we went out and people got dessert he still ate dessert with everybody he like you know had some fun Foods whatever and just through I didn't even realize I was doing it but just through sheer kind of force of habit I've gotten to the point where especially when I'm traveling the meals I can control by default I make them low calorie and high protein because it's more satiating and it gives me room that like when I go out to dinner tonight have a bit bread yeah or I can have um a burger or I can have something that's a little bit more and I have room in my budget for that but a lot of people wake up and they have you know pastries and then for lunch they have a big foot long sandwich that's you know another thousand calories and then for dinner they're having um you know whatever else they're having that usually loaded in oil and starchy carbohydrate and you know I I put this up one time I was like you know the average amount of physical activity in this country is is less than 20 minutes per day and the average caloric intake is 3,500 calories and we think we're worried about seed oils and artificial sweeteners like you guys are focused on some Pebbles when we need to be worried about the really big rocks you know what I mean like so many people get hung up on little stuff and don't even think about the really large rocks that they need to be paying attention to I saw a study last week that says American adults spend on average 8 hours and 15 minutes a day on screens and 6 hours and 30 minutes of sleep I I saw that I saw you post about that wild okay final final element of the Tactical stuff what are supplements that everybody should have in their stack on average do you think what are the supplements that really work okay so I kind of like Branch these into like tiar right so my Mount Rushmore of supplements would be uh creatin monohydrate would be number one um dosage frequency 5 grams a day there may be evidence that like 10 or even maybe a little bit more has cognitive benefits Tim Farris been talking about that yeah so it's very safe I mean there are people who have been hand ringing about creatin for a long time and the the worst thing that you can say about it is people say Well it causes hair loss no there was a single study in 2009 that showed creatin supplementation increase DHT that is not the same thing as showing hair loss DHT is a marker and that is a mechanism now that's never been replicated and they didn't show a viable mechanism by which it does it because the the the their testosterone levels didn't change which is the precursor and then the in the the the product after DHT didn't change so either creatin is having some Direct effect on this enzyme or this is a data artifact that has not been replicated I tend to lean towards the ladder um so creatin monohydrate increases lean mass improves strength improves performance improves cognitive performance it has been shown to have a similar effect on depression as ssris I'm not saying for people to do use cre come off your SSR and switch it out for I'm just saying that this seems to have some really ubiquitous benefits so and even like some of the more disease states were're starting to see some benefits for creating supplementation so I'm not saying everybody should be on it but it is a lowcost high yield supplement that is very safe and we're not talking about a couple studies we are talking about thousands of studies done over decades in Labs all over the world I am very confident um now caffeine caffeine is the original neut Tropic it is the original performance enhancer um and if you look at the benefits of caffeine increases cognitive performance increases exercise performance um downsides negatively impact sleep so if you're going to take it do it early in the day preferably unless you've got a podcast yeah uh you know what one of the wildest Things is uh whoop release a uh aggregated set of their data at the end of be and on whoop you can track behaviors and it will correlate those behaviors with outcomes that you get HIV resting heart rate sleep sleep quality duration blah blah blah one of the best predictors of good recovery and sleep was caffeine interesting yeah so that's and that's like interesting tens of thousands of people that's interesting so this could be a case where you know there's confounding variables of perhaps people who are taking in more caffeine or exercising harder and that's helping them get better sleep right that's interesting so there's obviously like I mean we know based on the mechanistic human randomized control trials that caffeine negatively impacts sleep I wonder what about is there a potential that you've got kind of like a healthy user bias here with people that doing whoop they probably know that you've got a 9h hour half life for caffeine so maybe they're pumping a couple in a morning and then by the time that they get to an evening time that a dennine is yeah I mean I I think um what's probably the most likely outcome is some sort of healthy user bias with people who are using wearables also taking a lot of caffeine probably more likely to exercise and have other healthy lifestyle behaviors but why would all of the people that are using whoop are using whoop like it's interesting it's something I I might try and reach out to the guys and get a little bit more data I could send that to you all right so creatine caffeine for caffeine uh couple of questions first off there's no real like Optimal dosage but what do you think about when it comes to dosage what do you think about when it comes to timing and what do you think about when it comes to dependency so obviously earlier in the day is going to be better for Sleep based on what we know um as far as dosage I mean you get some anti- fatigue benefits like 50 100 milligrams you get start to get the performance benefits once you get up around 2 300 milligrams of caffeine like for exercise strength benefits like aute strength benefits are more like 3 to 600 milligrams of caffeine Christ so I mean I'm I'm a F of caffeine and before the meet on Saturday I'll probably have about a nice 5 600 Mig shot right at the beginning and I'll probably have a 200 milligram boost which I'm lifting in prime time at 6:00 pm so I probably won't be sleeping real great that night but that's okay it's just one night um so yeah for the for the more like standout kind of performance benefits um you know you got to get a little bit higher dosage dependency yeah I mean you can definitely get I mean there are absolutely caffeine withdrawal symptoms I go through them whenever I start tapering off for a meat because I'll usually taper down to I used to completely cut it cold turkey and I just found that that was intolerable so I go down to about 100 milligrams a day uh because actually the other thing people don't realize and I found I'm like when I cut out caffeine completely I started like feeling like aches and pains and stuff it's actually a slight uh analgesic it has a slight analgesic effect and I started getting all these like like feel why am I like having like back pain that I haven't had before the other things and when I just went down to kind like 100 milligrams a day to kind of like just maintain um I noticed that that stuff went away all right creatine caffeine um one other thing to add you can completely reset your caffeine tolerance in about a week if you go cold turkey but you're going to feel pretty miserable for a couple days it's it's I mean I thought it I thought it was a placebo thing and then I did it and I was like why does my head hurt and why am I so freaking tired and then my ex was like you haven't had caffeine in two days duh I'm like oh yeah duh uh creatin caffeine whe protein uh whey protein tasty relatively cheap soluble um been shown to improve body composition numerous times it's not magic it's just a very tasty kind of ubiquitous form of protein that's highly bioavailable so I put it on my Mount Rush isolate concentrate concentrates perfectly fine in fact there may be some benefits to concentrate in that it has uh some of the um uh some of the components that positivly influence glutathione and antioxidant status um but a lot of people don't tolerate a pure concentrate well um because there's lacto there's quite a bit of lactose in it and um some people have sensitivities to the lactalbumin in way uh a we isolate is going to basically eliminate the lactose so if you have any kind of lactose sensitivity most people tolerate we isolate like um my company outwork nutrition the protein we sell is a we isolate people like is is that because it's more anabolic than concentrate I'm like no we just want to make sure that almost anybody could use our protein uh it is more expensive uh typically mixes better too so there just there's trade-offs uh weight concentrates cheaper but there's more carbs and fats and more lactose uh if you don't tolerate either of those well then a way hydrate will probably work for you which is basically pre- gested way so they've chopped up the lactal tastes it does not taste very good and it's expensive but it it will work well for somebody who can't tolerate the lactal abans in a way and then we go down to like my tier two which is stuff that I feel strongly is beneficial uh but I just want to see like more research done over a greater period of time and those would be things like uh Roda Rosa um uh things like beta alanine citrine malite um Jin sing actually has quite a bit of good research on it just naming the ingredient profile of neonic here I'm just there we are yeah there it is that's what we're here for baby what we're here for uh uh b r ashwaganda ashwaganda another one so B ranine everyone went crazy for that when Matt Fraser said on Rogan that that was maybe it was Rogan or something else he basically retired from Crossfit and said that I think he was taking like some absurd amount of Bader alanine and attributed a lot of his sort of increased work capacity acutely to that um was citrine malate in there was that one of the ones you just said yeah yeah why uh fatigue resistance it also seems to there's some studies suggesting it may simulate mtor so that may be a small anabolic effect we don't know if that's like independent of other things that stimulate him tour but it seems to incre improve performance uh and improve fatigue resistance just going through what we went through there the uh riola the Jin sang the uh citrene bed alanine and the ashwaganda have you got dosages that you prefer for yourself with those yeah so riola it seems like anywhere from like 150 milligram to 450 milligram and then after that it actually seems to be like a a kind of tapering off end shaped c yeah um you know we um actually even as low as 50 milligrams there might be some benefits as well but if you want like the like there's some studies that show like uh actual decreased fatigue and actually decrease perception of fatigue as well as well as like uh cognition benefits and it seems to be like a very um what we call an adaptogen ashon is kind of like that as well so it kind of um puts you back to Center for lack of a better term um but yeah some good data on fatigue resistance for that uh ashw Ganda oh man dosage why did it Escape my mind just now I think that's actually uh about 150 to 300 milligrams or sorry 300 to 600 milligrams for ashanda um that's uh in our recovery product and downside to that is doesn't mix super well um when you when you mix up our recovery product it tastes great but it kind of looks like uh Beach water a little bit um because of the sediment but the ashwaganda it's interesting because I'm convinced pretty convinced because there's been quite a few studies now showing reliably it increases strength lean mass um and decreases cortis ol and modestly elevates testosterone but the effects of on cortisol and testosterone would not be enough to show those lean mass benefits so my one hesitation is I kind of want to know what the mechanism yeah what the mechanism is for that CU whenever I see an outcome but we don't know the mechanism I kind of get the heebie jeebies yeah um but it seems to do that there's been several Labs that have tested it you know cross different you know that's why I tell people is you know science is is self-correcting right like people will say well I don't trust science they they speak about it like this very I don't know like science is what is people are the ones that screwed up like people imperfect humans are doing science is perfect and the scientific method is about as close to perfect as you can get but since people are doing it we screw it up now where it's the reason that I don't go crazy over individual studies is because I the reason that creatin is on my Mount Rushmore because there are thousands of studies over Decades of research across thousands of different Labs if this was all a hoax it is a very elaborate hoax you know what I mean but can one study be faked or you know done in a way where the participants and the way it's set up or massaged in such a way to get of course not a thousand times though yeah but it's hard to do over decades and across a bunch of different labs in a bunch of different countries Jin sing yeah jins sing uh I have to go back I think it depends on the extraction method um but I think somewhere in that like 100 to 500 milligram dosage I'd have to go back and look at the specifics I could have butchered that a little bit and you know the citrine number as well yeah so the minimum appears to be about six grams um and then up to like eight grams and so actually that's one thing to look for in pre-workouts if they don't list if it's a proprietary blend that that has citrene I mean you can almost be assured that you're not getting enough because expensive so of our pre-workout which has citrine malate in it as well as riola and caffeine um there's five ingredients citrene is I think 40% of the cost of our pre-workout riola is uh 10% of the cost of neonic yeah it's [ __ ] painful yeah yeah so it's um those things are you know I'm I'm I feel pretty confident about them and then there's other things like fish oil uh melatonin I think would be on that list you're not concerned about long-term use of melatonin I mean I think we we show up in the human outcome data I mean I just I mean I think the the the worry is like with caffeine the dependence right um you know the best thing that for that uh which I found for me when there is something that has a risk of Behavioral or maybe even like whatever pharmacological dependence on on usage just never take it two days in a row if you set yourself that rule of uh if I took it yesterday I can't take it today and if I take it today I can't take it tomorrow you become so much more mindful about your use of these things especially caffeine and you're like right okay I didn't have caffeine yesterday so I could have it today how much do I need it today well tomorrow I've got legs first thing in the morning and I've got dinner on the evening time [ __ ] I really think I might need all right you've just gone two days without caffeine like how spectacular and I think that for me was the I did 500 days without caffeine so wow yeah I'm sure after the first couple weeks it got easier though I did to be honest dude I never felt the withdrawal thing I know people get absolutely brutalized by it but I never felt it uh and you get my reintroduction of caffeine was just let's just not do it two days in a row because I wanted to hold on to those sort of uh realized resensi even though according to you and meno like between three days and seven days I could have done it in that time at all but I it was more like a can I do it thing um and yeah just don't do it two days in a row and this I think the same for melatonin too you're definitely an Optimizer because I've I have another friend who actually lives in Austin who's very much an Optimizer and whenever we talk I go okay what kick are we on uh this time because whenever I come to visit him it's always there's always something he's doing where he's he's doing this every day or he's not doing this at all for a period of time and I'm always like what what kick are we on now it's the it works Lane Norton ladies and gentlemen Lane I appreciate the hell out of you uh I love your nails good luck with the meat this weekend where should people go they want to keep up to date with the things you do yeah so uh I mean Instagram is kind of my digital business card now which is biolane uh and my website's Biol lane.com and uh created a whole host of stuff to try and help people from every different level from you know our our team of coaches that do one-on-one coaching to our app carbon diet coach Which is less than 10 dollars a month that's an algorithm based coaching app that you know basically you know it tracks like my fitness pal but then it actually adjust your nutrition based on your individual metabolism based on how you're responding based on your goals um it works extremely well we've had you know tens of thousands of users and like a 4.8 rating in the App Store and so that's been nice because I've always felt like you know one-onone coaching you can only help so many people and so that has been something that's allowed to reach a lot more people and then the Su company we talked about nutrition um I have a research review where I try to simplify research we kind of break down studies every single month it's called reps and that's on my website ban.com and then I also like really when I was thinking about how do I affect the largest amount of change uh I also feel like it was mentoring coaches and so I started uh something with Professor Bill Campbell called physique coaching Academy where anybody who has a goal of basically helping people transform their bodies who wants to be a coach this is essentially like we set out to make it the equivalent of a college level education in physique Transformations so like if you want to get deep into the science behind how to like build muscle lose fat on a biochemical level but then also like relate it to actual practical coaching we do a great job of that so I didn't know you had all of this stuff going on yeah I got a lot of stuff rattled around you know what I mean yeah well this week you've got to lift some heavy weights that's the only thing you need to do yeah I'm I'm uh I'm very excited um I think I might be set up to have I got a chance at possibly hitting my biggest total of all time which after every all the injuries I've been through and everything um that would that would uh you'd probably see me lose my mind if I did I would be very because you always seem so calm when you're lifting typically when I see you on Instagram well I tell people I'm like when you see me on Instagram and you think I'm fired up that's like 70 80% Lane when you get meet day Lane that's 100% which is basically a Berserker but it allows me to I get to do my my Superman and Clark Kint thing you know what I mean I get to be the nerdy Clark Kint kind of guy and then I get to go out and and rage and you know do some crazy stuff hell yeah I appreciate you man thank you for coming thanks for having me man thank you very much for tuning in if you enjoyed that clip you will love the full length 2hour long podcast which you can watch right here