Lindsey Clancy Trial: Is Patrick Clancy Hiding Something? (Expert Analysis)

Today we're going to talk about Patrick Clancy. Now, there's a lot going on with him. A lot of people think he's actually involved in the murders. Let's take a look at his behavior and see what we think. Greg, tell us about the videos we're going to watch. >> Yeah. So, all we're going to do here is see what he was a defense witness, but I believe this is prosecution that's asking him questions. We'll get a pretty good storyline and throughput. Let's see what you think. Um, so on Monday, um, I had asked you some questions about, um, the Surface Pro that you and the defendant, um, had in your home and had access to and about whether you had looked at a site, um, on suicide methods on August 22nd. Um, if I could ask you, did I did you look at a site for suicide methods on August 23rd, 2022? >> I don't believe so. And I had also asked you on Monday about um when you were leaving the home on the night of January 24th, 2023, um your observations of Lindsay and and the children. Do you recall that? >> Yes. >> And you had testified that um you observed Dawson on the couch eating um I believe you said chicken nuggets and green beans. Is that correct? >> Yeah. Do you recall um if you're facing the couch where he was on the couch? [cough] >> Um if if I were facing the couch, he would be to the right. >> To the right. Okay. And um showing you a photograph of the living room. Um where there are some bowls on the couch. Um is that a fair and accurate depiction of how the couch looked that night? >> Yeah. >> We could have this photo mark. >> All right. Any objection? that may be admitted [clears throat] >> now. Um, as you're getting ready to leave the house to head out to get the takeout, um, did Lindsay say anything to you? >> Nothing specific that I can recall other than maybe goodbye. >> All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, we're going to see him with compressed lips. I'm going warn you up front. A bunch of you that watch us all the time are going to find red flags in places we're going to not agree with you. This is a really good story. Really horrible story, too. But those compressed lips in the beginning, I think are withheld emotion. I went back and looked for pictures of him talking. He doesn't do it all the time. So, it's outside of his baseline outside, which drives back home. My point, we're talking about baseline in this courtroom, not baseline while you're at home eating Cheetos. His eyes blink as he processes data. This guy's a sales guy for Microsoft. So, it's probably highly likely he's accustomed to a lot of data input before he gives back information. So, you have to take into account context. And I know somebody's going to say he's doing romancer because he's looking too hard. But he isn't. He's looking hard in data intake phase, but the minute he ask a qu he has to answer a question, he looks away and then comes back. And we're going to look. He's going to his right almost every time. and I'll point out when he doesn't and places and him why, but he goes away to re to recover some information and comes back and answers that question. That's good baselining. He's got nothing to lie about here, so we're going to get a good baseline out of him. When we see him ask the question about how the couch was set up and shown a picture even, well, that's an emotional thing if that's the last time you saw your kid alive. So, we see his eyes go to the same place, recover information, then drop down into his right in emotional accessing as he thinks about it. One interesting piece to pay attention to in this guy's look at his forehead. No involvement whatsoever. None in this first clip. So, we're going to look for that and look for is there a reason he does it? Is it learned behavior? But wherever. And one of the other things that everybody else is going to point out is a single shoulder shrub shrug. And it's when he's asked, did she say anything else? And he says, nothing specific I can recall. That's appropriate. I don't remember. So, that's appropriate. So, he's really illustrating his thoughts. Let's see if he deviates from this baseline, Scott, so that you're not last. What do you got? >> Okay, thanks. Yeah, the lip compression and that big deep breath and that eye lock, those are all triggered by stress. And at the same time, the emotional wear on him from something like this, the most horrible day of his life. Seeing all that and being involved that learning that everyone in his family is gone now. That's that's unimaginable imaginable. So three years of that wearing wearing on him think every time he thinks about every time he comes up he's been thinking about this court case coming up all that. So it's been on him a lot. So I think like one of the first what what you do when you first start looking at someone you find you decide what's missing that should be here. Like Greg just said we're not seeing grief muscle. We're not seeing any any engagement in the chin boss. We're not seeing anything uh that's overdone in in the facial expressions department as far as emotions go. And that's because they're they're just worn out. He's done that over and I'm sure over and now it could be a situation where he's the kind of person that doesn't do that or doesn't have those things show up. But if he is, the reasoning behind that would be because he's just been doing that so much. He's literally worn out and he delivers his answer without any of those awkward pauses we see when someone's someone's being deceptive. Every time we see a head nod or headshake, those are confirmation nods and shakes. Like even if he's shaking his head no and saying yes, it's like yes because there's a rhythm to that. If he said yes and backed up a little bit and his head was doing this just a little bit, then you'd say that might be deceptive. You have to look for other cues and clues around that to make a cluster to give you a better idea of what's happening because there's not people are relying a lot a lot on one thing and that's the way his eyes look in this. He looks like cober eyes. Don't do that. Don't go down. Don't go down that road. We make fun of that road all the time. And everybody I know that's in the body language and behavior world, they make fun of it, too. So try not to go down that road. It doesn't. It doesn't. >> You mean it's not true. [laughter] >> It's Well, let me ask Chat GPT. >> Now, I'm going to change. Hang on. Chapter three. >> I [laughter] got to go edit my book. >> Go in. Get it done. So, and like Greg was saying, the shoulders the shoulder shrugs there at the end. Those are those are appropriate. They should be there. They should be there because he he's not sure. I heck, I just did. I was not sure. So, he's not sure. So, you see that thing go up. That's fine. And he's not getting specific about all the details by adding um qualifiers to all this minutia about spec every situation which is happens a lot when someone's being deceptive. They're lying about something. They want to make sure they create that picture of your in your head of exactly what happened. He's not doing that. He's just answering the question and telling what happened. And he's not thinking about what happened most of the time. He's just delivering the answer because he remembers those things. But he doesn't reme remember the minutia. The person being deceptive usually remembers all the little tiny things that were going on in there. That's not happening here. So, leaving to the house to get food and and things from the the drugstore and all that, that's something that happens all the time. They they're doing that. They've got three little kids at the house. They're doing that all the time. And that's what happens. So when he leaves, you know, he's not going to be paying attention to all the little details any more than you do when you go outside to take out the trash or anything else because it's something it's a behavior that happens every day or quite often over there. So, okay, Chase, what do you got? >> Yeah. So, they ask him this question and it's the one question here if he searched suicide methods. >> He doesn't say no. He says I don't believe so. So, pay attention to that. They're asking him about the past and when he's saying I don't believe so, that's a current belief. It's not a memory in [clears throat] any way. So that that stood out to me not knowing anything about this case. And keep in mind there's a massive difference between us telling you what we see and us telling you like about the case. We have no idea about the case. We're not experts on the case. We haven't reviewed the evidence. We're looking at behavior here and behavior should be case agnostic. 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At the exact at the time that the murder happened, did a mental disease deprive her of what they call substantial capacity to appreciate the criminality of what she was doing or to conform her behavior to the law. And Massachusetts uses this one word appreciate very deliberately. So it means like I understand and not just I know a fact but it's actually appreciating the fact and it's a big difference in in legal terms. Huge distinction there. So someone could theor the theoretically understand police are going to call this murder and also experience reality through a a mental state that's so distorted that the act of murder feels morally necessary. And this is kind of like I really this is like philosophy like I'm trying to like I'm reading John Bodriard here. So So if you raise criminal responsibility uh the burden belongs to the commonwealth or the state, right? So they have to prove criminal responsibility. So what they're basically saying is it's very narrow. What functions in her mind were still online in 2023 when that happened? So the jury is having to judge a mind that doesn't exist anymore. And and so it's it's a really interesting state. The brain is there. Uh the the mind or state of mind isn't okay like what was the there was one final thing here. So the diagnosis helps construct a little bit but the function is what decides the forensic question not a diagnosis. A diagnosis is never the question in in the forensic state. I didn't know that until today. Mark, what do you got? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh yeah, difference there between knowing and appreciating. Quite uh quite quite interesting. Uh I agree with you, Chase. The only thing that I had an issue with in this video was I don't believe so. You know, he knows that he didn't look at anything on the 22nd, on the 23rd. He doesn't believe so. And so there was a little like okay what's going cuz just like you chase I'm like what the hell is this? I don't know anything about this. So a little flag went up where going okay why why can you commit to the 22nd and not commit to the 23rd. But look I mean there's a possibility he is just happy with the idea of of of not you know for him that I don't believe so is the same as not at all. I don't know. we'd have to go through more of his language to work to work that out. Uh Greg, I completely agree with you. The the the tightness that we're going to see in his face, which would often look like withheld opinion in other circumstances, um it is withheld. I think he is protecting what's coming coming forward for him. I make that decision because when he's shown a photograph of the scene, we really see the face tighten up >> around that and many many air areas of it tighten up. I would say to protect him from what he's seeing and protect from him issuing out his feelings about that would be my my my judgment on this at this point. So there's lots that I see that makes a lot of sense here for somebody who is themselves a victim of this situation and just one thing there that I don't believe so just for me like you Chase I go oh hang on what's going on what's going on here so it made me interested to go go forward and see whether that develops in any way in any way Greg >> I'll give you a data point so the only reason I know is because I watch a lot of videos to try to find this. I didn't watch the I didn't watch the case in order and that kind of thing. >> But when the defense attorney starts asking him questions, he asked him, "Did you search?" And he says, "No." He said, "Did you in fact look up the death of a country singer called Tom Hall?" And he said, "Yes." And he said, "And how did you die by suicide?" And he said, "Probably you click this and it took you to this." So there's some nuance to the actual question, right? So, is it the nuance of were you searching because you're right because you're trying to do something nefarious or did you search because you were double clicking down the chase the rabbit hole rabbits >> but you know >> country and western singers who'd off themselves for whatever reason. Um, so on Monday, um, I had asked you some questions about, um, the Surface Pro that you and the defendant, um, had in your home and had access to and about whether you had looked at a site, um, on suicide methods on August 22nd. Um, if I could ask you, did I did you look at a site for suicide methods on August 23rd, 2022? >> I don't believe so. And I had also asked you on Monday about um when you were leaving the home on the night of January 24th, 2023. Um your observations of Lindsay and and the children. Do you recall that? >> Yes. >> And you had testified that um you observed Dawson on the couch eating um I believe you said chicken nuggets and green beans. Is that correct? >> Yeah. Do you recall um if you're facing the couch where he was on the couch? [clears throat] >> Um if if I were facing the couch, he'd be to the right. >> To the right. Okay. And um showing you a photograph of the living room. Um where there are some bowls on the couch. Um is that a fair and accurate depiction of how the couch looked that night? >> Yeah. >> We could have this photo mark. >> All right. Any objection? that may be admitted [clears throat] >> now. Um, as you're getting ready to leave the house to head out to get the takeout, um, did Lindsay say anything to you? >> Nothing specific that I can recall other than maybe goodbye. Then when you approached the basement door, do you remember if it was open or shut? >> It was shut. >> So did you open it and yell down? >> Yeah. >> And there was no response. >> Correct. >> And um showing you a photo here. Is is that a fair and accurate depiction of the stairway down to the basement level? >> Yeah. >> Have this marked as the next case >> that may be admitted. >> [clears throat] >> Do you recall when you open the door to yell down whether the light was on or off? >> Yeah, it was on, but Lindsay always left the light on. Okay. >> And you said you called Lindsay. Um, was that a phone call? >> Yeah. >> And was that at approximately 6:09 p.m.? >> Yeah. >> And did she answer? >> No. After calling down um the stairs to the basement, did you leave the door open or did you close it? >> I don't remember. >> Okay. >> I I would think I closed it cuz I always try to keep it closed. Um I'm not sure. >> Okay, >> Chase, what do you got? >> So, one thing that came up for me here um and I was wrong this morning is people who are remembering tend to leave a lot of holes. people who are making up will fill in a lot more holes. Uh, but I think this is different. He's answering questions that are dry as hell, very factual, and probably all tailored to these yes or no corners that he's he's got a stand in. U, but you'll see that he he does these little rapid blinks while he's answering. You'll see his eyes kind of do this blinking thing. This is very common in people who want to stay small in the room habitually. Uh or they're or they're not comfortable asserting themselves or or setting a boundary or pushing stuff. Right. This looks like to me like a a good baseline here for how he says yes and how he says no. Um Greg, I'd be curious if there's an incentive here since you know more probably about the case than any of us, which is still 1% of what Yeah to it. No. >> U is is there I don't know if he has incentive here. I'm not sure what the case is uh looking at. So if he's looked at as some kind of suspect or something like that. >> Not l So the the what I know about the case is she has pled guilty pleaded guilty to murdering the three children but by you just covered it by the postpartum psychosis. So all they're trying to do is prove is prove that she's not a murderer in her DNA. I I suppose they're just trying to get her off of that charge so she won't be in prison for the rest of her life and then whether she goes to a mental institute. Who knows? I don't know any of that. So I don't think there's any he has any and he's moved on. He's remarried >> and everything is different for him. So he has no real incentive here as far as I know. So, uh, I I we're going to I'm going to take everybody you watching right now, even if I'm sitting on your iPad on your kitchen counter, we're we're going to go all the way down the rabbit hole with this forensic psychology stuff. I got obsessed with this this morning. Like, what what are these weird philosophical It's not legal. It's more It's way more philosophical. So, the prosecution's pointing toward this planning stuff. So Lindy Lindsay allegedly sends him out of the house to go pick some stuff up from the store or something. There was this sequence, right? There's uh deliberate actions and all of this is relevant, right? But if you look at forensic psychology, it forces you to separate executive functioning from something called reality testing. And this is like standard psychology, which I know a lot about both of those things, but I didn't know it in this this context. So those are different thing a person can reason from a reason logically coherently from a catastrophically false premise. You can still reason from something just batshit crazy. So imagine someone genuinely my children face some unbearable fate unless I save them by killing them. If it becomes psychologically real planning can occur down logic process logic works just fine. Yep. >> Yeah. So she can check the time, create privacy methods, all this kind of stuff. So the forensic fight now becomes was the problem itself real at the time in her mind. >> So planning tells us something about like the cognitive part of this. The reality testing tells us like whether the world that she was imagining actually existed or claims to imagine. So this is why prosecution is seeing planning as evidence of responsibility and the the defense side of everything can and look at some of the exact same behavior and argue that an organized person was in a psychotic or mental break reality. Right? So it's a completely different re reconstruction of the mind producing it. That was like a French philosopher to me. like Sartra is is what that reminded me of reading that this morning. Uh Mark, what do you got? >> Yeah, so I would you know in the UK we there's a little bit of simplicity to it which is there's responsibility and diminished responsibility and so then you know well what is diminished diminished to what extent what at what point have you become irresponsible you know you have or no responsibility whatsoever. So, um, so I think that's one of the areas that's being played with with here, as you point out, Chase, in some very, um, uh, levels of minutia, which are which are, you know, tricky to comprehend, especially when you've got, you know, children that have been murdered. That's that's a little finite. That's a little, you know, that's not diminished. That's that's completely final. Um, look, I I've only got one thing to say about this one, which is we get a single shoulder shrug on I'm not sure. That's really good. >> Beautiful. >> That's really That's really good. Like that's, you know, as as you've often said, Chase, you know, that's what the truth looks like. That's what the truth looks like. It's like, yeah, I'm not certain about that. I'm not sure. So, that is um uh that's a great example of of of truthtelling. And so for that part of the video, I had nothing more to look at that uh that solved it for me. Greg, what are you going on? >> Yeah, Mark, it's funny because later I call him the poster child for single shoulder shrugs because he's illustrating exactly what we always say. When I'm uncertain, I raise one shoulder. I'm telling you a fact and I do it. Now we have a problem. But he isn't. He's uncertain and he tells you that out loud. >> So he's got no reason to lie. There's nothing urgent here. To your point, Chase, he has no incentive. And I can only imagine the complexity of the jury instructions that this jury had to face considering what we're just talking about. You know, there's no such thing as law of the ether, as they say. So, the complexity of this law has to be one that's really racking them. The reason they are back out again tonight, I'm not going to talk about her. I there's only a couple of pieces of video clips of her that I've seen. And we got to remember she's on antiscychotics and all that kind of stuff. So, when people are looking for normal, I would say don't look at her for normal or for a baseline because you can't really read it from across the room. She's not talking. This guy I accesses the same place when he answers it was shut. He's fidgety by nature. I'm going to use a word that Scott and I use all the time on TV. He's apprehensive. It's clear he's apprehensive. And he's not apprehensive about being discovered. He's apprehensive about having to live through this again. And you can see it because the minute he's released from a question and she turns to do something else, all that energy comes out. And it all comes out. It's not coming out when he's under duress. when he's being asked a question, like if we were asking a murderer, they would it would come out then. But he does touching his hair, his face, going up right up to his right where we typically associate with visual cues and then downright into where we typically associate with with emotion. And then he goes just moves his eyes over to his left to an internal voice and goes into a thousandy stare. What we mean by a thousand yard stair is your eyes go out of focus. Watch this in the second time and pay attention to his eyes going out of focus and him going behind his eyes to work on something and it's likely what he doesn't want to relive because you see a bunch of tongue juts come out that we associate with distaste or disapproval then back down the the lower right and back down the lower left. This whole thing is and then he even swivels his chair a little bit. But he's doing all that while he's sitting quietly waiting for her to to present whatever is going to go into into the case. and everything goes away the minute she asks a question. So that's all internal stuff for him. Probably related to the death of his children and that you can only imagine how horrific the destruction of a family he valued was. Then he's back to this more than normal eye contact. Breaks away to the same location when asked a question. And then Mark punctuates beautifully. I don't know. This is a great example of a baseline coming out over and over and over. And also a great example of I always say as long as your mouth, your brain, and your body are all telling the same story, you're congruent. His brain is doing a different story while he's not being asked questions. You can see he's running a whole different tape in his head. Scott, what do you got? >> All right. Since we brought up uh existentialist philosophers, I'm going to say say this more lies on the on the the side of of nichch instead of well I guess art could go on they could go down both roads but the way my perspective will be from the niche perspective as or let me go Kofka because there we go because this guy Kofka has a story about a fellow who woke up and he was a cockroach and didn't say why turn into the [ __ ] and nothing else it just said hey this cat wakes up and he's a cockroach he starts living his life like that and the world's dealing like this this I woke up and found out he was a monster. So, because every a lot of people think he's the guy that did all this stuff. And so, what we're seeing is the body language of him reacting to to that and I think trying to keep his his head together during all this because the questions are bringing him back to those moments of the most horrific day of his life. And there's these short he comes back with these tight short answers and that that's why we see that big deep breath there at the beginning. That big deep breath and that and letting go because it's it's horrific. He's having to go back and every question she asks him, he has he has to think of his child, his children's faces, what they were doing, how they were sitting, what was going on right then, right? The last time he ever saw him. And then it gets worse here in a couple minutes. But then we see that head scratching and and that, you know, his fingers going going weird places and goofing with his ears and stuff. Those are those all look odd, you know, when he's fixing his hair and all that. If you look at if you layer that oddness over top of it, you say there's a monster or just what about some guy who's just stressed more than he ever has been in his life. And that's what we're seeing here. So yet when you see a queue like that, you see two or three things pop off at once. You have to take into consideration, you have to ask yourself what are what are those and what else is going on around those? What's happening in that in what's going on in real time in that situation? You have to take all that in consideration. You have to put all that into into the um information you're sorting through. How does what's happening affect what you're seeing? And is what you're seeing affecting this guy? And it is that rapid blinking and and the voice volume, you know, and tone going down like that. That's not fading facts. Usually it is. If someone's being dishonest, they're being deceptive. A lot of times they'll get quieter toward the end. His go really quickly because that's his brain is saying, "Let's get away from this, man. I don't want to talk about this anymore." So it keeps getting low and it goes a lot quicker than it does with fading facts. So like Greg was saying, if you see these and compare them and say, "Wait, that's something we hear all the time. It doesn't that mean this? It means it means this over here in specific situations but not this one because we're dealing with a a different situation here. So that's where I'll end mine there. All right. Is that everybody? >> Yeah. >> So I went last. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Just making sure. >> Then when you approached the basement door, do you remember if it was open or shut? >> It was shut. >> So did you open it and yell down? >> Yeah. >> And there was no response. >> Correct. and um showing you a photo here. Is is that a fair and accurate depiction of the stairway down to the basement level? >> Yeah. >> Have this marked as the next place >> that may be admitted. [clears throat] >> Do you recall when you open the door to yell down whether the light was on or off? >> Yeah, it was on. But Lindsay always left the light on. Okay. And you said you called Lindsay. U was that a phone call? >> Yeah. >> And was that at approximately 6:09 p.m.? >> Yeah. >> And did she answer? >> No. >> After calling down um the stairs to the basement, did you leave the door open or did you close it? >> I don't remember. >> Okay. >> I I would think I closed it cuz I always try to keep it closed. >> Um I'm not sure. Okay. [laughter] Um, and so after you called Lindsay and didn't get a response, what did you do next? >> I started checking upstairs. >> And where did you check upstairs? >> Um, first the bathroom. I thought maybe they were taking baths. Um, but there's no one there. >> And then where did you go? >> The kids bedrooms. >> Was there anyone in the kids' bedrooms? >> No. >> Um, and then did you go to your bedroom? >> Yeah. >> And were you able to get into your bedroom right away? No, the door was locked. And that's when I knew something was wrong. [clears throat] >> And when you realized the door was locked, um did you have a way to unlock it? >> Yeah, the previous owners um when they installed the door knobs had these uh like these keys that they tape to the back of each door. So, I got the one from Corora's room. Then I started unlocking the the knob. >> Okay. And um when you unlocked the door to your bedroom um did you go in? >> Yeah. >> And what did you see when you um opened the door and went in? >> I just saw blood everywhere and the window is open. >> And showing you here a photo. Is is this um the bed in your bedroom? >> Yeah. Now, the way the bed is in this photo, um, kind of pulled away from [clears throat] the wall and slightly a skew or at an angle, is that the way it was typically? >> No. >> And when you left the bedroom that day, um, for the last time prior to coming home later that night, was the bed in that position? >> I I don't think so. >> It may be admitted. and you said you saw the window. Is that correct? >> Yeah. >> Was it open? >> Yeah, there was wind blowing in. >> All right, Mark, what do you got? >> Yeah, [clears throat] what have I got in this one? Um, okay. The door was locked. Um, that's when I knew something was wrong. And you get a little bit of movement in the chin here, you know. And I I I looked at that and I thought, [clears throat] okay, well, this could be good because I think it could be, you know, a little bit of emotion and chin boss, but actually I think it's actually milling in the in the mouth there. I think one of his self soothers at the moment is just and along with this very kind of closed face as he tries to control the emotions there. I think it's a side to side motion rather than the muscle here. I'm willing to be picked up on that and taken to task. Um but either way I'm I'm okay with it. uh I saw blood everywhere and the window was open and we see the breathing rate and capacity go right up at this point. So so I think there is the reliving of um some very powerful emotions there. Panic, fear, I would I would imagine it feels like it looks like panic and fear to me. And again, if if this was somebody, so I'm taking on what I what I imagine some people are saying about him. I imagine they're saying that he in some way was complicit and planned this or did it or I don't know. I don't know. [clears throat] >> If that were true, if that were true, I wouldn't expect him to be able to have that emotion at that time because none of it would be factual. and he'd have to act it. And if that's him acting it, it's too good. Like, it's radically too good for acting. Uh it's a real feeling that he's having um right now. So, it's a good good sign. Uh the only problem I have uh with this is um he's asked if that bed is typical for the way it used it it was normally. He says no. Uh they then say is that how you left it when you left it that and he says I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so. Okay. So I am concerned like why don't you know how that the you should know if you left the bed that day. It's if it's so radically out of place. You would know it was radically out of place. It's like wow who who who just moved the bed as I just got out of it. So there's there's there's some kind of logic and credibility down there. But again, is it his thing of like I don't believe so. I don't think so. For him, I don't believe so and I don't think so is good enough as a no for him. It's good enough >> as a as a no. So yeah, I don't know enough about him and the culture. This is me just trying to pick at it and go, okay, what can I find? Okay, I found that, but it doesn't match up with anything else. It's not a cluster. It's one thing that I'm having to go and search for. And listen, if I go searching for it, I will find it. But does it make it accurate? No, I don't think it's making it particularly uh accurate. Uh Scott, what do you got on this one? >> All right. I think those short tight answers again that lets us know he he doesn't feel the need to add qualifiers. We're not seeing these big emotional upheavalss like you see a lot of times in people who are and that happens sometimes when someone is actually feeling those emotions again because they're reliving it and they'll come to this shock thing and they'll have this big upheaval of emotion. But when you see somebody in a situation like this who's been going over this for like three years or something, they're just emotionally worn out, just tamped down. So the shoulder shrugs that you, you know, usually indicates a lack of of confidence, those should be there. That's normal. And those single shoulder shrugs like with the chin going over there. I'm all the time talking about if it's a shrug and the chin goes over. Most of the time, man, that's deceptive most of the time. But there are no absolutes. And he actually does that once. The other one single shoulder goes up and he's shaking his head. No, as a confirmation shake. So, but when he gets over over here like this, I think he's he's doing eye blocking as well. So, that's three things at once. It's not just the chin and the shoulder. that doesn't knock it out of why it couldn't be deceptive, but I'm under the impression that that's not a deceptive cue in this situation. So, I'm going to ride I'm gonna ride on that one being non-deceptive. All right, Chase, what you got? >> Yeah, y'all got it. Um, y'all had a lot everything I had. Greg, I hope you can talk about his chewing motion and and some horses here in a second, but I will. I'm sure. [laughter] So this part obviously it's dark as hell. It is hell. It would it would be it's the hell on earth for anybody. This is the worst thing that could happen to somebody I think. >> Uh so on the forensic psychiatry angle of this uh they've been studying parents that kill their children for decades. I forgot what it's called. something aside. Um, but this this guy named Philip Resnik, he developed this classification system that is is insane. So, it's five big things. So, you have uh filicide is what it's called. altruistic, acutely psychotic, unwanted child, uh fatal maltreatment, and then spouse revenge, which is all five disgusting, horrible. Uh but the disturbing one is is this altruistic. So this this what they're talking about here is a parent killing a child while believing the death relieves the child of some kind of suffering. uh and I think it was 70% of the time it accompanies some kind of suicide. So a parent could del develop this belief if if the child becomes motherless, they're going to be in some terrible existence and it's going to be way worse than kind of like taking them along if they're suicidal. Um, so prosecution, uh, they they brought on this forensic psychologist. His name is Kirk Hileburn. Uh, and he reportedly testified that he believed, uh, Clancy was suicidal and she thought her children would be better off, you know, what if she died. But he rejected the idea that she was psychotic and concluded that that she totally understood everything that was going on, everything she did wrong. So, think about this. The prosecution can essentially say, "Yeah, she believed she was sparing them suffering and simultaneously say uh she remains totally criminally responsible for everything." And what we're saying here is motive and mental capacity are separate, two separate forensic questions, I guess. So saying she thought she was saving them solves nothing all by itself. So the real job is figuring out for these forensic guys what is the thing that produced the belief was it like depression uh psychotic delusion and these things that she's hearing voices maybe like those are called command hallucinations so the machinery is actually where the case lives and I didn't know that until I was today years old what do you got >> yeah I'm going to disagree with you guys about emotion I think he does show a lot of emotion here but it's so contained that this is the beginning of it This guy's face is really contained. I agree with you guys there, Mark. I do think the chin boss is actual grief, is actual emotion. His flutters several times, which is why it looks like it's coming out of his chewing faction. But the chewing actually comes after. And I think the chewing is a way to deal with the stress that's caused. That's an adapter. But I see that chin boss engage like several times and flutter. And the reason I think it's control is watch his upper lip get really long. I mean, you have to really pay attention, but his upper lip extends and that is that is containment of emotion. And we see him when she starts asking these questions, he he gets to where he anytime he gets a second, he does a whole lot of this adapting. Looks like a baseball player, coach, you know, signaling and that kind of thing. But his chin drops and gets lower and loader and lower. And then Mark, that you brought it out, his respiration exhaling in between breaths almost to the point of hyperventilation looks weird. Then you see that fluctuating chin boss a few times, a heavy swallow, and his eyes reen. So all that stuff, watching that upper lip extend down, that looks like containment of emotion to me. And we always talk about you should have residual emotion from horrific acts. You should remember it. You should feel it. You should express it in your face. And I think that's what we're seeing. And that mouthgrooming is just a way for him to release whatever is going on. Now, the cause of the stress here, I think if we were doing this about the woman we covered last week, we'd be like, "Yeah, she's full of it. She's lying. And here's why." Because she would, to your point, I mean, all of you have brought it up at different times. If you ask her, "What did you see?" Well, I saw a bed that was sitting different. She wouldn't have said exactly what she saw. She would have given you a reason why and rationalized and done something different with it. This hard eye contact and this reding of the eyes, that looks hurt to me as much as anybody. It's starting to be. If you don't have empathy, this is a hard one to see, but if you do have empathy, it's a hard one to see. But it gets worse. It gets painful to watch this guy. It is so brutal. Just stick with us. >> Um, and so after you called Lindsay and didn't get a response, what did you do next? >> I started checking upstairs. >> And where did you check upstairs? >> Um, first the bathroom. I thought maybe they were taking baths. Um, but there's no one there. And then where did you go? >> The kids' bedrooms. >> Was there anyone in the kids' bedrooms? >> No. >> Um, and then did you go to your bedroom? >> Yeah. >> And were you able to get into your bedroom right away? >> No, the door was locked and that's when I knew something was wrong. >> And when you realized the door was locked, um, did you have a way to unlock it? >> Yeah. The previous owners um when they installed the door knobs had these uh like these keys that they taped to the back of each door. So I got the one from Coror's room then I started unlocking the the knob. >> Okay. And um when you unlock the door to your bedroom um did you go in? >> Yeah. >> And what did you see when you um opened the door and went in? I just saw blood everywhere and the window is open. >> And showing you here a photo is is this um the bed in your bedroom. >> Yeah. >> Now, the way the bed is in this photo um kind of pulled away from the wall [clears throat] and slightly a skew or at an angle, is that the way it was typically? >> No. >> And when you let the from that day um for the last time prior to coming home later that night. Was the bed in that position? >> I I don't think so. >> It may be admitted. And you said you saw the window, is that correct? >> Yeah. >> Was it open? >> Yeah, there was wind blowing in. >> And when you saw Lindsay on the ground there under the window, um, which direction was her body facing? >> Her head was closer to the house. Her feet were away from the house. >> Okay. And did you go to her? >> Yeah. >> And did you um observe any injuries? >> Yes. >> And what did you see? Uh she had deep cuts on her wrists. Um and she had a red line across her neck. I I wasn't sure what it was at first. Um but she cut her neck. >> And um do you recall that these wounds weren't actively bleeding at the time? >> Um I later learned that I said that on the 911 call. Yeah. And and when you observed these wounds, um is it correct that the 911 operator um asked you um or instructed you to apply pressure if needed? >> I I don't recall the whole call, but I I believe that's probably true. >> Okay. And and you didn't at the time feel the need to apply pressure to any of those wounds. Correct. >> Correct. >> Did you say anything to Lindsay when when you found her in that state? Yeah. I said, "What happened?" >> And what was her response? >> She said, "I tried to kill myself." >> Did you um ask her anything else? >> I said, "Where are the kids?" >> And what was her response? >> She said, "They're in the basement." >> And at that time, she didn't tell you um that they needed help or they were in danger or any or they were injured. Correct. >> Correct. And so you mentioned um talking to someone on 911. At what point did you call um 911? [snorts] >> Um I don't know the exact time, but it took a few minutes because my phone was switching between Wi-Fi and 911. So I I almost just started calling out for the neighbors, but eventually it went through. >> Okay. Um so you had some difficulty connecting, but eventually you connected to the 911 operator. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And um did you stay on the phone with them? um while they were sending people to respond. >> Yeah. >> Okay. While you're on um the phone with 911, are they asking you questions and you're responding with information about her condition? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um and if you could just look at the screen here. Um I just Is this the model of the first floor of your home? >> Yes. >> Okay. And so, um, we have here, um, the sliding glass doors. Um, where would the, um, basement door be in this model? >> Directly before below the stairs. >> All right, Mark, what do you got? >> Okay. Um, I said, "What happened?" She said, "I tried to kill myself." There's a lot of uh, adapting there, and especially like a venting around the back here. Again, [clears throat] you know, if you take that on its own, just on its own merit in in isolation, then yeah, you could go, okay, kind of red flag. Why is he so nervous about that? Not going he's reliving the situation and the panic of the situation and the um well, the enormity of it. He's already hyperventilating like he's going to be getting hot from from all of that. Um and and and in the reliving of the heat of the situation, um the 911 call for me, you know, there's there's some I don't I'm not quite understanding the logic of this that the phone is trying to get a signal and it keeps jumping to to Wi-Fi. Um as well, I' I've not experience though the phones can do some bizarre stuff. Electronics can be a bit bizarre. So, look, if I was wanting to play on the side of he's he's a party to this, then yeah, I would raise that as what is this story about not being able to, you know, make a fast 911 call? What's all this nonsense? Um, and again, you know, if these are these adapters and this swear this this um um uh chair swinging was going on and it wasn't in his baseline because it shows up all the time. He's a bit squirly all the way through cuz it's a nasty situation going on here. It doesn't kind of, you know, with people who are being deceptive, you hit them with a question that is designed to put them under stress and pressure. Yeah. And they start peeking. It's like, "Oh, right. That was because of my question." That he's like that all the way through. >> All the way through. So, um, yeah, the only issue I have with this one is is the 911 call. So, if you if if you think I've hit on something and you're on the side of like, he did it, put put your put your comment down below, Mark, you're a genius. You found out about the 911 call. Uh, Greg, what do you got on this one? >> Yeah, Mark, if it were material, I might even look there myself, but it's not material because she's okay. If she had died because of lying on the ground for another hour while he was running around be a different story for me. I agree with you. It It's odd. But it's also kind of pertinent that when I looked at my phone and it was trying to switch over to voiceover IP, you know, you would remember that because it'd be stressful. The stressful stuff is what you remember. We talked about him having no no brow involvement. I'm a little obsessed with brows, but him having little to no forehead involvement. But watch when they say, "Did he or did she have any injuries?" Watch his brows go up in shock very quickly. Residual emotion. One of the few times we've seen his brow move at all as he starts to talk about these two things. Now, we expect residual emotion in all these. And then it's followed on by his emotional eye accessing looking down into his right. If you think about the last funeral, your your eyes will do the same. And then he's describing her injuries. He even illustrates a line. He doesn't put up to her throat, probably out of taste or out of personality. And when they ask him, um, I forget what they ask him about, and he says, "I'm not sure." And he does that single shoulder shrug again. He's got disdain or contempt in his face when he says she cut her neck. He looks disgusted almost at it. And then he does, I called it the other night, the baseball coach signaling all that stuff. And I think, Mark, you're dead on. It's He's got so much stuff going on in his head and so much pain and so much other. I mean, you can only imagine this has been, I think, 2020 or 2023. I don't remember when it was, but if it's been several years since this happened, you probably are just now starting to get a scab on the injury. Just starting to get a scab. Not healed, not anywhere near healed, and probably never will, but having to relive it, it has to be just brutal and tough. Um, Chase, what do you got? >> Yeah. So, y'all covered what what I would have said about the 911 call. You can you can see the stress. It's it's honest. It's very clean. Everything's straight here. Um I I had a I have a textbook still to this day called the detection of malingering and deception. And there's there's a piece in this. So the alleged voice that she heard in this case uh is people hear these command hallucinations. You have to do this thing. uh and they make some kind of a a decision about credibility right away. They either believe her or they say everything's [ __ ] So, a forensic psychologist approaching this is going to get a lot more surgical or has to uh you examine the phenomenology of the voice. What did it sound like? Uh did she recognize the voice? Did it feel like it originated in her head or somewhere in the room? Those are two those are important distinctions there. Did the voice have some kind of identity? Was it a male? And and how did she attribute authority to this voice? That's a big deal. So, and the other questions is is there a larger delusional system attached to it? Has she ever heard it before? Has she ever been able to resist it before? Uh what happened if she ignored it? Right? So, there's a whole lot of questions, right? uh that matters because these things that they call these command hallucinations they have patterns. So a classic forensic review that that where they had all this review of these papers uh they published these rates that that ranged crazily like from 40 to 90% give or take which tells you that hearing a command alone predicts nothing. 40 to 90% it's just all over the place. So the it predicts nothing. So the compliance with people hearing these internalized voices and I wrote these statistics down uh was associated with things like recognizing the voice and having the hallucination jammed into another delusional system. So the content like you need to kill XYZ, you know, that grabs everybody's attention, but the relationship, how the person, the the perspective carries a a ton more value. I was going to say slode, but that explains why the prosecution psychiatrist, his name was uh Gregory Sat, uh attacked these characteristics of the account. So the continuity, the timing, all tons of inconsistencies that he's that he says. So he's essentially asking, and I'm sorry to go along here, but here's what he's essentially asking here. Does this claimed experience possess the architecture that we expect from the phenomenon that I'm hearing from this lady? So you examine the symptoms under the label, right? Because one label doesn't mean identical symptoms. It's not math and it's not science. Psychology I just don't think is science at all. I I think it's numbers and data and predictive analytics and stuff, but it's not like doing a Excel spreadsheet. Humans don't fit on those. >> We've just lost all our subscribers who are psychologists. >> Sorry. [laughter] All right. I'm going to focus on the part where he's asking about speaking to Lindsay and with all those cues and things popping off because he's talking about his person, his wife who he just found outside with all that stuff wrong with her neck and the things going on with her wrists and that's what they've been talking about and that's mind-numbing and it's horrible when you think about that and you're thinking about your person doing that. You weren't ready for that, man. you're out getting Chinese food or something and some at the at Walgreens and you come home and you find that you're discovering this stuff. Nobody prepped you. Nobody did anything. You just walked in and said, "What's going on here?" Couldn't find anybody. You and you stumble upon that. Yeah, that's pretty hardcore, man. So, keep in mind because we see that that that weird cluster of cues. That's going to happen to anybody. when when you start, like I said before, when you start seeing a bunch of cues pop off, that means stress has been introduced into that situation. What caused that stress? Is it um something that was said? Is something's introduced to the situation? What's happening there? And then when you see these cues pop off, look for other ones around that. So, you see one cluster, what else? What else is going on in another cluster? Or is there another cluster? What's going on in real time around that situation? Think about what's happening here. He's in court, like I said before, 90,000 times. He's talking about his family being is, you know, isn't with us anymore. So that and what that means is there's a lot of stress when somebody scratches their nose means their nose probably itches. When they scratch their head, their head probably itches. [laughter] So I'll find a spot in there. I'll go like this. And that's all I'll say about that. Uh Mark, what do you got? >> Yeah, you just just make yourself freeze. >> Okay, [laughter] that's what I'll do. I think you were last again. >> Yeah. Yeah, you were last. I've been >> Okay. Sorry, we had problems on what number we were on in >> Yeah. And Scott froze. >> And when you saw Lindsay on the ground there under the window, um, which direction was her body facing? >> Her head was closer to the house. Her feet were away from the house. >> Okay. And did you go to her? >> Yeah. >> And did you um observe any injuries? >> Yes. And what did you see? >> Uh, she had deep cuts on her [snorts] wrists. Um, and she had a red line across her neck. I I wasn't sure what it was at first. Um, but she cut her neck. >> And um, do you recall that these wounds weren't actively bleeding at the time? >> Um, I later learned that I said that on the 911 call. Yeah. And and when you observed these wounds, um is it correct that the 911 operator um asked you um or instructed you to apply pressure if needed? >> I I don't recall the whole call, but I I believe that's probably true. >> Okay. And and you didn't at the time feel the need to apply pressure to any of those wounds. Correct. >> Correct. >> Did you say anything to Lindsay when when you found her in that state? Yeah. I said, "What happened?" >> And what was her response? >> She said, "I tried to kill myself." >> Did you um ask her anything else? >> I said, "Where are the kids?" >> And what was her response? >> She said, "They're in the basement." >> And at that time, she didn't tell you um that they needed help or they were in danger or any or they were injured. Correct. >> Correct. And so you mentioned um talking to someone on 911. At what point did you call um 911? >> Um I don't know the exact time, but it took a few minutes because my phone was switching between Wi-Fi and 911. So I I almost just started calling out for the neighbors, but eventually it went through. >> Okay. Um so you had some difficulty connecting, but eventually you connected to the 911 operator. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And um did you stay on the phone with them? um while they were sending people to respond. >> Yeah. >> Okay. While you're on um the phone with 911, are they asking you questions and you're responding with information about her condition? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um and if you could just look at the screen here. Um I just Is this the model of the first floor of your home? >> Yes. >> Okay. And so, um, we have here, um, the sliding glass doors. Um, where would the, um, basement door be in this model? >> Directly before below the stairs. >> Um, at some point in time, do the first responders make their way down to the basement? >> Yeah. >> And, um, do they take over care of the children? >> Yeah. >> Where do you go? >> They sent me upstairs. >> Okay. And um at this point, your honor, I'd move to submit the 911 call as the next exhibit >> that may be allowed uh pursuant to the earlier Order. taken to a hospital. >> Yeah. >> Um was that uh Beth Israel Deacon is in Plymouth? >> Yeah. >> Did you also go to that location? >> Yeah. >> And at the hospital, were you able to see your children? >> Yeah. >> Um and was Kowan then transported to Children's Hospital? Yeah. >> Did anyone ever tell you not to leave your kids alone with Lindsay? >> No. >> In January of 2020, 2023, did Lindsay ever tell you that she wanted to harm your children? >> No. >> Did she ever tell you she was going to kill your children? >> No. All right, Chase, what do you got? >> So, watch his body. The breathing is a like when we talk about a shift in breathing, this is it. This is the classic textbook breathing jumps. It moves from the chest and it goes up and it it moves from uh relatively slow to high deep breaths. face touching spikes like crazy. He's swaying around and adjusting himself. This is a person is trying to kind of hold still and and stabilize is is the word that I came up with this this morning. He's trying to stabilize himself. >> But listen to the answers. Did anyone tell you not to uh lead the kids with her? Did she say she wanted to harm them? All this other stuff. Uh stress and honest can coexist. If you watch our channel, you already know that. But if you take the if you take the body for a lie, and Mark's going to love this, that's called the Oll error. >> Yep. >> So the the questions put his kids and kill in the same sentence. So the nervous system is going to move, right? The nervous system do stuff. Uh let's go down the psychology rabbit hole forensics really quick because this is fascinating. Um, the mind that the jury needs examined is a mind that just existed in 2023 for for like a I don't know a couple hours. >> Nobody gets to interview that version of uh Lindsay, is it Lind Lindsay? >> So experts do this thing where they they kind of perform something closer to archaeology, right? They collect a bunch of fragments, medical records, treatment uh records and stuff, medication changes, what other people observe like doctors, friends, all this kind of stuff. Uh same way they do like an ADHD diagnosis. Um, with all this stuff they're looking at, jurors, all the jury heard the evidence that in in all these weeks before the killings took place, Clancy or Lindsay searched topics like hallucinations, psychosis, postpartum depression, and ways to die uh in the weeks leading up. So now watch how dangerous interpretation can become in a courtroom. So the defense can look at all those internet searches and say she knew something scary was was going on. She was trying to understand her own mind that was it felt like it was deteriorating. Right? So the prosecution can look at the same exact stuff and they ask the question if she understood these concepts beforehand, how much did that knowledge influence the story that she's starting to tell herself and then a forensic psychologist has to resist kind of choosing one side or the other side because one Google search is that definitive? F no. Right? It's it's just full of ambiguity. So one strange statement carries all this ambiguity. So convergence is where the confidence level comes from. So do 20 different pieces of evidence all over the place start pointing toward the same psychological state and and that's what they've really got to prove here in this case. Um all these questions that they've got to ask. So evidence created before the crime [snorts] usually carries a different forensic seriousness from all the explanations after what happened. Right? So that's how you rebuild a a mind that that doesn't exist anymore. It's just one little fragment at a time. And that's what they're trying to do. That was fascinating to me. This didn't have anything to do with the body language year. If that was boring, I apologize. It was unbelievably fascinating to me to read some of these things. >> Uh Scott, what do you got? >> I want to delete all that anyway, so it doesn't matter. >> Okay, [laughter] >> that's Yeah, that's something you would absolutely do. >> Yeah, I'll take care of it. Don't worry, I'll take care of it. >> Please go ahead with your [clears throat] >> We'll put it out of that. >> Go ahead with your stuff, Scott. Please. >> My fascinating part. Okay, this only takes about 30 minutes. [laughter] Okay, here we go. There's not much I want to be able to add to anything that I've said so far because it all goes back for me to stress and that's what we're seeing. Everything we're seeing pop off and happen goes back to the stress he's feeling. So, I'm not going to go over and and go over the same things over and over and over. Greg, what do you got? >> I'm going to run down a long list. If you want to know whether you have empathy or not, if you're watching this and you feel like LA, you ain't got it. I'm just going to tell you because your body should be able to pick up on all the things we see in this guy. When she starts talking about the 911 call, you can see his anxiety build. He starts getting he's naturally a little twitchy as you know, but he starts moving faster and he's keeps moving and then as soon as they start playing the call, he has exasperated exhales. You can see them. I mean, it's pronounced. He's constantly adapting, not like he was doing before. He's downright eye accessing. That means he's feeling emotion. There's a strong intake breath. And then he braces his neck and his chin so he can hold still. He eye blocks with his chin down to protect his throat. And then we see Mark that same thing we saw earlier, but much more pronounced. That fluttering movement across his chin boss, this muscle here, you can see he's trying to contain it. He drops that upper lip down to try to contain that. And then his upper lip actually starts to quiver. That's emotion all day. And if you can't see the pain this guy's going through, I mean, there's still more stuff even there. When they ask him about seeing his children, there's so much emotional containment that that lip drops again and his eyes reen. There's a shortened response to everything that he asks. This is just hard for me to watch. And if you don't find it hard to watch or if you think he's guilty because he looks like he's in that much pain, I would go back and look at everything he says and follow it through. To Scott's point, he lost his entire family in the night. In the night. And now he's reliving this. What is it, three years later? >> This is brutal. hard to watch for most of us. Sure. For you too. Mark, what do you got? >> Uh, yeah. Um, well, let's actually Chase, look, you've given me a bit of content here talking about a fellow's error. So, um, so Aellow's error, first coined by Paul Ecman, I think in the book Telling Lies. >> You're right. Yep. >> And so, you know, everybody here is interested in uh body language behavior. Let me just take you through what a fellow's error is. In the Shakespeare play a fellow, Deszdona um is accused by uh Aello of um of uh of uh sleeping around. >> Yeah. Yeah. Adultery with uh Yago. And um and she realizes that to try and convince him is point is not going to happen. She's never going to be able to convince him. And she is frustrated with that. And that frustration causes her to cry. Iago, sorry, a fellow believes that the crying is a signal that she is guilty and therefore he kills her erroneously. She has not been unfaithful at all. She's always been faithful. It was just her frustration that produced the tears. He reads it as we often do in the heat of a moment. we read body language absolutely incorrectly and it's a raw shack test. It's more of um a good example of what's going on in our own minds than somebody else's mind. So uh Ecman coined the idea of a fellow's error. Uh yeah, listen point of of of I guess order here is that Greg, I'm right in saying we don't get to hear in that video the the 911 call, >> but he does. >> But he does. So when people watch when you watch that when you watch it back after this you're not hearing the 911 call but you're seeing the results of that call >> great >> on him. Um it is uh to to your to everybody's point who's been talking about Kfka it is purgatory for him that what you're seeing is somebody in in in a nightmare. It's purgatory for him and uh you know Kfka denoted Kfka was the first absurdist uh arguably um and he thought that purgatory to your point Chase was not a a physical place uh he thought it was a place in the mind somewhere that a contained space in the mind and it was denoted by confusion and guilt and powerlessness. And so I think you have those elements there in that 911 call. Confusion, guilt, >> powerlessness. It's a classic CFKA purgatory that he's in now because also he's in a bureaucratic system. He's he's in um he's in a court of law which is classic. It's the trial, you know. So, so it's a classic Kfkaresque absurdist nightmare here, but to the to the highest degree because it's absolutely real for him. No doubt about it. Uh, look at it again and and see what you see now. If you were ever at all doubting that this is somebody going through hell right now, this is what it looks like when they're trying to contain it within the bureaucracy of the system that they're in right now. >> So it kind of like crosses streams with the metamorphosis. >> It does. >> Um at some point in time, do the first responders make their way down to the basement? >> Yeah. >> And um do they take over care of the children? >> Yeah. >> Where do you go? They sent me upstairs. >> Okay. And um at this point, your honor, I'd move to submit the 911 call as the next exhibit >> that may be allowed uh pursuant to the earlier Order. taken to a hospital. >> Yeah. >> Um was that uh Beth Israel Deacon is in Plymouth? >> Yeah. >> Did you also go to that location? >> Yeah. >> And at the hospital, were you able to see your children? >> Yeah. >> Um and was Kowan then transported to Children's Hospital? Yeah. >> Did anyone ever tell you not to leave your kids alone with Lindsay? >> No. >> In January of 2020, 2023, did Lindsay ever tell you that she wanted to harm your children? >> No. >> Did she ever tell you she was going to kill your children? >> No. Did you receive um a few days after this this happened, did you receive a phone call um from the defendant while she was at Brighamin Women's Hospital? >> I think it was um like a week or so after. Yeah. >> And um what did the defendant say at that time about what had happened with the children? Uh, she didn't talk about our kids. She talked about what she went through. >> And what did she say about what she went through? >> She said she heard a man's voice telling her that if she didn't do it now, she would lose her chance or something like that. >> And did she also tell you that she had had a moment of psychosis? >> I don't recall. Did she mention the children at all during that call? >> I don't think so. I mean, not directly. >> Had she ever mentioned psychosis to you before? >> No. I didn't know what psychosis was until after this happened. Did she ever tell you she was hearing a man's voice before? >> No. >> All right, Mark, what do you got? >> Yeah. So, here in the video, they're putting forward this first time I've heard it, putting forward this idea of of psychosis. And um he doesn't jump on it in any way. He doesn't I if if for me there was guilt involved, this would be a great opportunity to jump on this even subtly and just add a little bit of fuel to the fire there. Just add something in there, you know, subtly and does not take that opportunity uh at all. which which somebody who was complicit in this in some way or had um had some guilt beyond what he probably already feels. I mean, you know, if your kids have have uh been murdered, uh you're going to feel some guilt. You're going to feel some even if you would, you know, absolutely nothing to do with it, you will find some guilt somewhere. That's the Kfka-esque nightmare. you will find some guilt. There'll be plenty stored up for you. But he doesn't jump on it, which again is a great signal for me that he's nothing to do with it at all. Uh Chase, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one. I I listen to pronouns maybe way more than I should. So this guy named uh man something Pinabaker, he wrote this book called The Secret Life of Pronouns. It it it really it was very influential to me. Scott Pinbaker. >> I've got him. I've got him with James. >> James. It was James. >> It [clears throat] is James. Yeah. Is that okay? >> Uh who's a Texas guy as well. U But he keeps the word our kids in there. >> She talked about our kids. >> Yep. >> That's >> She didn't talk about our kids. >> Not the kids or she talked about my kids like they were his. She took them. she doesn't deserve to own them. The ownership gets stripped away in his mind. Doesn't happen. Uh and then the voice, some man's voice telling her if she didn't do it now, she would lose her chance or something like that. Uh he he doesn't want to make the quote neat. That's a big deal. So he's like, I don't recall on this psychosis stuff then. I don't know uh what psychosis was until after all this happened. In my opinion, and I could spend half an hour breaking this down. Uh I don't think he believes the story about her hearing voices. That's my opinion. I think he's just answering uh what what happened on a call. I don't think he's buying it. And you can hear maybe some of that uh before he explains it. She didn't talk about our kids. That's the line you need to pay attention to. First thing he says, she didn't talk about our kids. Uh so I don't think I don't think he's he's all in. Greg, what do you got? >> Yeah. I think two big things. There's another pronoun, she what she went through. And he emphasizes she in that one that is powerful because it wasn't about our kids. It was about her. When they ask him these questions when he first starts, you see his blink rate increase and people are going to go, "Oh, he's lying." That's just his processor working. And he wipes his nose. An old absolutist trope about if you touch your nose, you're lying. Well, he just about cried. You could see his eyes were red. He likely has some mucus on his nose and that's probably where he's wiping or it's uncomfortable. He's wiping his nose. Then he goes into this emotional eye accessing that we said before. Residual emotion should be there about his wife calling and then she didn't talk about our kids. I agree with you, Chase. If you hated her, you would have thrown under the bus. And he's not I don't think he's said a bunch of horrible stuff about her. He's been contained as far as I can see all the way up through here. And then he says she talked about what she went through. And right after he says that he presses his lips closed immediately. I mean presses them unlike what we've seen yet. Sets his jaw does two tongue juts and I know you're marking that one. Scott does two tongue juts and chews the inside of his mouth as an adapter or thinking move. I think that's anger containment. And I agree with you. I don't think he bought in. I think he is just not going to say anything other than what he's asked and he he doesn't exasperate exhale as they're asked about the kids as he's asked about what she said about the kids before he says that um that hour. I think it's sharp. It's contained and this is containment of anger. I think if we look really closely, if we slowed this down, we'd see some tightening of the jaw a little bit more than you can even see on the surface. So, I agree with you. Scott, what do you got? >> Yeah, I don't have much on this again. Yeah. But well, we know why. But uh I agree with Mark because if that was his shot right there, man, if he wanted to like he could have said, "Man, let me tell you what was going on over there. She used to freak me out. I wake up in the middle of the night and she was talking about some man over in the corner. It wasn't that thing where you're trying to wake up, you know, sleep paralysis. It wasn't that. She was having a discussion with some and she could have gone down that road or he'd always say she he could have said she was all the time going do what and look around and nobody would be there. Is that you talking? Things like he could have just run that thing home, but he didn't. So, you know, so I I agree with with Mark on that. And again, I'm laying everything on stress from all that. That's that's why we're seeing all we're seeing. >> Did you receive um a few days after this this happened, did you receive a phone call um from the defendant while she was at Brighamin Women's Hospital? I think it was um like a week or so after. Yeah. >> And um what did the defendant say at that time about what had happened with the children? >> Uh she didn't talk about our kids. She talked about what she went through. >> And what did she say about what she went through? She said she heard a man's voice telling her that if she didn't do it now, she would lose her chance or something like that. >> And did she also tell you that she had had a moment of psychosis? >> I don't recall. >> Did she mention the children at all during that call? I don't think so. I mean, not directly. >> Had she ever mentioned psychosis to you before? >> No. I didn't know what psychosis was until after this happened. >> Did she ever tell you she was hearing a man's voice before? >> No. >> All right. It's got pretty interesting. Mark, how's it looking to you so far? >> Yeah. So I guess the question here would be is there any deception here? I don't see any deception at all. Is there withholding? Yeah, I would say there's behaviors about withholding, but withholding emotion, withholding um the pain, not showing that. Um could there be some withholding of some data? Yeah, I think there could be he could have some fuller answers to some of the questions and he's not delivering that fuller answer. An example of that I think Chase would be in that last video there where he may have an answer that says le I don't think she she was psychotic in any way. I'm not buying this. Um, but he's withholding that. Maybe maybe leaking out in the in the pronouns as you as you say, but he's not overtly um taking the opportunity to speak his mind. So, is he withholding? Yeah. Um, is he is he deceptive? No, I don't think so. Chase, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I think here's the the big question that might sit at the center of this whole case is can somebody understand that killing is illegal while experiencing it as morally necessary. So, if if you could imagine holding the the same two beliefs at or these two beliefs at one time, police are going to call this murder and these kids are going to suffer unless I save them in this way. So the the first one tells us she understood the law. The second one tells us that the this result might have felt like inside of her head, right? Forensic psychology kind of lives in that gap. So, the jury, the jury that's deciding right now, and maybe by the time this video comes out, the jury will have decided uh whether she understood the true moral meaning of what she was doing or whether ill some kind of illness rewrote that like totally rewrote it. That's that's the big thing here. And God bless those kids. uh people who hurt kids. I I it's extremely hard for me to to have an ounce of sympathy, a a milligram of of sympathy for any of those people. And I maybe I I want it to be the case where there's some mental incapacitation here because >> Chase, I'm I think I'm right in saying that she has to it's understanding at the exact time. >> Yeah. So the understanding can change pre and post. >> Yeah. >> So you got to go the jury have to go inside somebody's head at a specific moment. >> Yeah. It it's remote viewing is is basically what they're asking the jury to do. >> Um Greg, what do you got? >> Yeah. The one thing that I did read is that she was making some something she written down or said that they had tracked where she was saying that they would all go to heaven and be together. she was actually saying those words which meant it took rational thought to know she was taking their lives. And so there's there's a lot of stuff here and we're not here to solve any of that. We're not here to solve was she in was she capable. We don't know the facts. What we do know is there are people who want to blame him and say he did it because so we looked at the video. I'll tell you what I saw was a guy in pain. A lot of pain. In fact, some of this was hard to watch. And the pieces that I cut out are even harder to watch. So, there's pieces of this you just don't want to see and you feel sorry for them. This is a tragedy regardless. If she had a psychotic break and she killed these kids because she thought it was the right answer, it's a tragedy for her and for him and for the children. If she with any kind of intent or any other reason killed these children, it's a tragedy still. I mean, this is a horrible thing when you go back and listen to what people said about them and, you know, said they were loving and all this. This is a whole family destroyed in one evening and a guy who has to live with it the rest of his life and a woman whether she feels remorse for it. We don't know. The thing I would warn you about when you watch videos of her and you see her with a blank stare is she's on some antiscychotic drugs that mimic Parkinson's masking which means low facial expression and blink rate. So be really careful when you're watching any of those not to assign. Even I look at it and go hell I can't tell because it's what we see. Scott, what do you got? >> Yeah. The reason I like this one so much is because we see someone who is uh stressed as much as you can be stressed and we're seeing all these things fly off of them from a body language perspective. We're seeing the neurological part of it happening because we don't see much happening in the face when it comes to facial expressions. We're seeing the the um the lyic system isn't popping off and and all these odd things like that. We're seeing the natural things you try to do when you're when you're uncomfortable, when you're when it when it isn't on fire. But I'm sure in a lot of ways it is. It keeps I'm sure it has to keep getting a shot in there at some point because when he starts reliving those things. So I think it's fascinating to see somebody under that much stress and we get to see what those uh stress points are. We see we see him come out in his body language from goofing around with his hair and his ears and and goofing around with his mouth and the way he moves a little bit in the chair. And I think he I think he did a fantastic job of keeping it all together. I don't I don't I still don't understand how he could keep all that together after witnessing that kind of thing, living through it, especially being in his family. So, I think that's that's this is an opportunity for us to see to to look at someone who, in my opinion, is being honest, but a lot of people think they're being deceptive because of all the things they're doing with their body language. Because we teach to look for body language, to look for cues, and we're seeing tons of them, but none of them point toward deception. So that I think that it's a great example of of that. All right, fellas. Thanks another good one and we'll see you next time. >> The behavior panel >> seen yet. Sets his jaw. Does two tongue juts sets his jaw. Does two tongue juts sets his jaw. does two tongue juts. >> Can't you