Learning This Sooner Could Have Saved Me Decades - Oliver Burkeman

Is it possible to be the best in the world and relaxed at the same time? >> Um, the best in the world. I don't know. I um I what I do think is that it is very possible to be really really good at what you do and relaxed. And actually my experience is that the more relaxed I can be, the better I am at things. I'm not going to claim to be the best in the world at anything, but um I I think that notion that you've either got to choose a relaxing life or an accomplished one. This is this is the thing I'm on a mission, very personally motivated mission to prove is not uh not how it works. I think there's a tension between having high standards, which is [gasps] hypervigilance and obsession and focus and really paying attention to stuff and that just tends to bleed into the personality and the ambient anxiety and uh I can see for instance if you were to say um is it possible to be the best in the world and never relax at the same time that question would seem pretty obvious. to answer. >> Yes, of course. Because the exact same level of resolution that you're obsessing over your pursuit with is the thing that kind of destroys the rest of your life. The interesting question is to work out whether you can kind of be on and off or if you can hold things a little bit more loosely whilst still getting the right level of output you want. >> Yeah, it's really interesting. I think that um there's there's something I mean this runs through a lot of what I try to write about, but there's something about wanting to feel in control of the process of getting better at things or being good at things which is kind of completely different from the actual process of getting better at them or or being good at them. So I think there's, you know, this is on some level just the banal observation that people who really excel in what they do are very often or perhaps more often in a flow state while they're doing it. They're kind of they sort of let go into the action. They're not sort of sitting back inside their minds controlling it all in a very um sort of uh conscious uh controlly controlly way. So yeah, for me and of course I'm talking about things like writing or speaking. I mean I'm not talking about it may work differently in to different degrees for kind of sports performance and things but you find that the more I'm trying to make sure that things go well that that's just like a and and therefore I'm sort of unreed and clenched and muscles tensed and everything. the more um you sort of pop into this awful self-conscious space where nothing nothing works and it's much better to lose yourself in the activity than to be trying to control it. >> I think a lot of people are struggling to find a healthy way to pursue goals without tying their selfworth to the outcome. M >> that is one of the one of the fundamental problem like if I >> the only way that I can get myself to pursue a goal is if I care about it >> and in the act of caring about it I'm going to be disappointed if I don't reach it and in the act of the disappointment is some sort of value judgment about me and my worth and whether or not I you know so how do you healthfully pursue goals without tying your selfworth to the outcome given that the only sort of goals you do pursue are ones you care about and in the caring the disappointment and in the disappointment the selfworth. >> So I mean I the there's a sort of ideal way of doing this which I don't claim to have you know totally pulled off or anything but I think the distinction is when you say care about there's a way of caring about goals that basically defines yourself as inadequate and insufficient until you've met them. Um and there are other ways of caring about goals. So there's a concept in um psychology the concept of the insecure overachiever uh which whenever I kind of mention it in public audience context or whatever like like half the people in the room uh just the the look of recognition uh >> that passes over their face is amazing. Right? So people who do really well in life and they're driven and they're probably applauded and celebrated by their friends or by society at large. They're doing loads of impressive stuff, but on some level, and I was like this for years, they're doing it to try to fix something about themselves or to try to feel okay and to try to sort of fill a a void. So loads and loads of really successful people in the world, I think ultimately are sort of feeling like they've absolutely got to succeed otherwise on some level they don't really deserve to exist or something. >> Mhm. >> And that sort of that puts you in a perpetual place where everything you're doing for in terms of goal pursuit is um is is to try to make yourself feel sort of less bad about yourself. And and it puts you in this really awful situation as well, which I definitely used to experience a lot, where anything you achieve in the world, which you might think you could then feel like proud and happy about, just instantly becomes the minimum standard that you've got to meet next time. Um, which is a very depressing way to to to live, right? Um and [laughter] cuz and and so you know you you you do really well at a an exam or you get a certain level of public success with something and then it's like that instantly becomes like if you don't meet that same level the next time then then [clears throat] like who are you? What are you? There is this whole other way of thinking about caring about goals, right? which is to say like at least to entertain the possibility of like what if everything was fine right now and you feel good about yourself and you don't have these self-worth psycho dramas going on and then on top of that you decided to create some cool things in the world because that's a more interesting way to live than um than sitting around doing nothing. So, I think there is a way of being ambitious and accomplished that doesn't need to be um like in in flight from from something, but it's a it can be challenging to get there. >> I love this. I I've it's been one of the central questions. I think it's why I'm such a huge fan of your work and and your newsletter as well that everyone should go and sign up to that the imperfectionist. uh it it's one of the central questions that I want to achieve things but I don't want to miss my life might might might be a a pathy way to to sort of describe it and um I called it the curse of competence this uh situation where if if things go well for you sometimes or even worse than that most of the time then success is no longer a reason for celebration. It's the minimum level of acceptable output. And there's a line from a John Bellian Luke song that says uh if the higher I climb is the further I fall, then why love anything at all? And he's he's talking about it with regards to falling in love with somebody. But the same thing is true. The insecure overachiever in me pattern matched it to personal development. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I was um >> I just thought it's so funny. I I found out in the middle of December last year that the podcast charted really high globally on this this Spotify thing and the the Goldilocks zone period after not knowing that I was that I charted at this thing >> and before realizing that that meant next year I have to be better than that [laughter] was >> Yeah. Right. Right. a approximately probably 15 minutes or maybe less [laughter] >> and a beautiful 15 minutes. >> It was so good. It was I got to actually enjoy the thing before I thought, well, 2026's chart is only whatever 11 months and 30 days away, so I must I must get my nose back to the grindstone. I remember I saw this Ryan Holiday video. I brought this up to him. >> Um, and I think Ryan's a super balanced guy and I really really like him. But, um, I had seen this. It's almost like performative grindset. I don't think I think it's more him, which is why it's less, it feels less contrived. He got a call from his publisher and he was sat in in his office and it was to say, "You've hit the New York Times list. You're number whatever one or something like that. Congratulations." And Ryan took like 3 minutes or less, like 90 seconds on this call. And it's videoed and he put it on his Instagram and then was like, "All right, I got to get back to writing the next book." And I was like, "Ryan, come on, dude. It's like you're supposed to be the [ __ ] guy. Anyway, curse of competence. Um, if the higher I climb is the further I fall and me my Spotify debacle last year of of Yeah. realizing this is the minimum level of acceptable output for 12 months time. Um, it's it it's a real pervasive challenge. >> Yeah, absolutely. I was speaking to an author more successful than me talking about how um I shouldn't name names. He was talking about how, you know, when his first big successful book had um hit right at the top of the charts, he was like following along with his friends on WhatsApp and they were just like completely amazed that this thing was happening and everyone was just overjoyed and then realizing when that happened to his like I don't know fourth, fifth, sixth best seller or whatever it was >> and it find and it did get to the top very soon after release that he sort of felt only uh relief and then realizing that there was something a miss about only feeling relief in a situation where you should be, you know, you should be just sort of amazed and celebrating that it's happening. But now it's become the the bare minimum. >> Yeah. >> That I I asked a question at my live show. So the people who came to see me in North America last year would have heard me ask this. It's one of the final questions which was to work out basically whether you're gripping life too tightly. Um, and it is when things go well, is your presiding sensation one of joy or one of relief? >> Yeah. >> Like is it is it the uh sort of congratulation of self-love or simply the abatement of fear? And uh [laughter] I just think like this you see it's strange doing talk I'm sure you do live life live life live life live life live life stuff too and it's strange giving talks like this because a musician wants hands in the air and and shouting and a comedian wants laughter and clapping and if you're us what you want is this kind of [laughter] sullen fearful look on someone's face it's the what does an existential >> existential crisis He's triggered, right? Yeah. Exactly. >> What does an existential crisis look like from the outside? And that's what we're that's the [ __ ] bullseye for me. That's exactly what I'm going for. >> Yeah. Brilliant. No, I think and I think that's a great it's a great question. It's a great way of putting it. It obviously raises the question of what the um what the answer is to this. And I think um uh it it's it's really one of those things where first of all just seeing the dynamic is far more powerful than like any technique or method for goal setting or anything that I've ever I've ever come across. Just like realizing that you're that you're doing that and that it kind of makes no sense that you're um that you're turning your successes into reasons to to to beat yourself up. And I guess also I guess this is sort of part of this overarching idea that I end up writing about, you know, because we are finite creatures because we're all going to die because there is [clears throat] um because there are limits of all sorts of other kinds of the control you have over your life or the number of avenues that you can pursue with finite time. there's this really powerful and incredibly liberating and I insist not depressing sense in which you've kind of already failed. And [laughter] so this this um this desperate kind of white knuckle clinging to the cliff face attempt to not fail, you can sort of let it go cuz like a metaphor that I've used in my writing before, right? It's like we go through life braced like we're in a like we're in a plane that might crash and you're adopting the brace position or whatever and it's like everyone's terrified >> but in a way the plane has already crashed >> and it and you're um you know and here you are right you're on the desert island in the smoking wreckage of the plane and that's what life is right it's just sort of uh doing what you can with what's in front of you and >> I definitely There are definitely people uh who think that this is a very sort of unambitious, depressing sort of resigned attitude to life, but I think it's absolutely like it's so um uh invigorating to to realize that like I don't have to go through life trying to um uh stave off the the great failure cuz that's just being alive and now I just get to >> It's an interesting version of what the actual situation is right that [clears throat and snorts] I've said this before. I I often think about the fact that one day I'll die but my inbox will continue to accumulate emails [laughter] that will forever go unanswered and unopened. Um >> so given given the fact that you're not going to be able to do everything that you want, you you cannot do all of the things. There will come a day where there are still things that you want to do >> and and time will be up. So with in that in that perspective 100% there is there is already failure as the set point if that is your criteria if your criteria is to do everything that you want to do complete all of the tasks answer all of the emails or whatever one day you will fail at that and uh yeah it is a an interesting inversion of what might be more accurate >> and yeah not just a fail not just a fail to do everything, but even to fail to reach kind of perfect standards in the things that you do do or um fail to have uniform uh positive responses to the things that you do. It's like once you see that the way that all these things are kind of outside our control, it becomes a lot easier to um waste less time trying to control them and thereby sort of, you know, free up time and energy and focus for for doing uh doing a few of the things that you that you want to do with your life. >> You're a fan of Krishna Mert's secret of existence. I don't mind what happens. >> What's that mean to you? So just um for anyone who's not familiar with it, right, he's he this is the the the the legend or the anecdote here is that he's um leading some group in California in the ' 70s or something. And uh this is um uh Christian Merty the spiritual teacher and he he sort of he he asks everyone who's present, do you want to know my secret? And of course all these kind of spiritual junkies absolutely obsessed lean forward desperate for the secret. And his secret as you say is I don't mind what happens. And for me uh that is a sort of ultimate statement of a kind of approach to life that um that that recognizes the limitations of the control that we have. recognizes how much of our lives are spent sort of anxiously leaning into the next hour or the next day or the next week >> just waiting to make sure that things are okay and then of course they are okay usually >> and all you do is lean forward into the next >> into the next week through your own life >> right exactly exactly and I don't think Christian in that in that u line I don't think he means uh that some things that happen aren't better than others that you shouldn't try to have things in your life or the world or the people you love like go well instead of badly. It's just that when whatever happens does happen um there isn't this sort of automatic stressful collision between like what you um are demanding that reality do and and what reality does do. And you can still put huge amounts of effort and time and focus into trying to, you know, have things go the best way, but then when they don't go the way that you were hoping, you're not sort of completely bent out of shape by it. Who knows how perfectly even he manifested this attitude, right? I think a lot of what we're talking about here is kind of a a a a shift of perspective that um that uh you know one one hopes to embody on one's best days but >> it's a a largely unreachable gold standard I think but it's definitely a direct it's a direction that you can be or an orient orienting principle would be a good way to put it >> a quick aside if you've noticed your energy isn't quite what it used to be even though you eat well and stay active there might be a reason for that as we age our mitochondria, which is the parts of our cells that produce energy, become weaker and make less energy, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline. 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You know, the place that I get this this looking over the shoulder of the present moment thing the most is when I go to comedy shows, especially if you go to the mothership here in Austin because lots of comedian I this is probably the same way it is at many other comedy clubs, but I haven't gone to them. when you see a lineup and there's eight comedians in a night and it's 10 minute spots or you know five minutes maybe for the first few guys and then some tens and then maybe a one or two 15s and then a 30 or a 60 at the end and what it means is that there's kind of a a regular carousel of these new comics stepping out on stage and me at my most juvenile and worst and most dopamineergic is me going oo I can't wait for the next guy as the current guy starts and then I next guy my way through every comedian. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Until the show's out over and then I can't wait to get into bed and then it's the morning. >> And um >> this you're you're so right that >> people sort of lean toward the thing that's happening in an attempt to control it, in an attempt to deal with the uncertainty. I think our first ever conversation that we had I I'd identified that most of your work is around control. It's around people's need for control, their desire to control. >> Do you see just to dig into that a little bit? Is control the reduction of uncertainty? Like what what is control trying to achieve? What are the what are the component parts? What's the problem it's looking to solve? Yeah, it's a really um deep and interesting question. It gets to the point where I don't know if I have the the answers. I guess what I think ultimately the [clears throat] idea that I'm tracking which is of course you know me doing personal therapy and coming to terms with my own issues is that there's something really really sort of overpoweringly intense and and vulnerable feeling about being human and consciously showing up for the human life that we have to sort of really take account of the fact that we're here that we didn't they didn't choose to be born, that that we have limited time, limited or limited ability to steer how things go, that we're going to die. All of this is just like super intense. And I think that very very often what we're doing without necessarily realizing it um is is pursuing strategies for feeling like not that we've got out of this situation cuz you can't get out of it until death but feeling like we're we're [snorts] feeling like we're engaged in a project of like getting a little bit out of it or sort of up on top of it sometimes is the is the way I think about it. It's like we're trying to sort of lever ourselves into a position where we're kind of controlling life instead of being in life, which all of us inevitably are. And so, you know, you can do that in ways that involve I think, you know, a lot of mainstream productivity culture is all about developing that feeling that like, you know, I'm really in the driver's seat of the of the of the thing now. But also sometimes it's a more kind of numbing out and distracting ourselves response, right? A lot of a lot of kind of time wasting is probably best understood as the fact that if you were really to focus on what you wanted to be doing, you'd feel vulnerable again because like who knows if this difficult plan would work out. Who knows if this awkward conversation is going to go the way I I want it to go. And that manifests in all sorts of ways. I mean, the thing you'll say about the comedy clubs is interesting to me because there's a cliche about how people put off life until they get married, until they get a promotion, until they retire, these big milestones, and that's true. Um, but even after I felt like I kind of got over that, uh, which to some extent, you know, getting older will cause you to get over it because you pass some of these milestones and and, uh, realize that there's just more milestones. But you're referring to this thing that I've really noticed in myself too, which is the capacity to sort of live not a decade in the future for when you get that big promotion or retire or something, but like about an hour in the future or 20 minutes, right? Like like even >> such an amount of time that's so [ __ ] unimpressive. [laughter] It doesn't even achieve anything, >> right? And it's just that sort of waiting for the next thing to happen, checking it went okay, and not even checking it went okay. In the case of comedy club, uh, a night at a comedy club, what's going to go wrong, right? Like I mean, actually, and I would be I'm terrible in those situations cuz I have sort of too much >> weird vicarious empathy for the performers and like I'm >> Me too. >> When people when people die on their feet in comedy clubs, I can't bear it. But, um, >> that maybe doesn't happen at the highclass Austin ones that you go to either. >> Typically, the guys are not bombing all that much. Although I'm I'm sure if it did happen, I would feel the exact same. I' I'd want to do throw some sort of a lifelong I'd feel obliged to make this performance night. Okay. Like how is it my responsibility to do that? So you you you hit on something that uh I think is real interesting. So I'm 38 next month and um what I'm interested in speaking to a slightly older gentleman on a similar set of rails to me. What changes for the insecure overachiever as they age? It's interesting. Uh I turned 50 that well actually technically last year but I am I am 50. um which is completely alarming and uh I'm still constantly going through the weird experience of realizing that people in their 20s or even their 30s are relating to me as a as someone from an older generation when I'm not talking about now in this conversation but like you know when I was just kind of assuming we were having a oh I see right I'm an old person um what changes is is you know I think that gradually there's this accretion of experience that gets big enough that you realize um that firstly you know the world does not uh collapse when you don't meet um when you don't when you break a streak of some kind of uh achievement that um that that you know you can sort of relax in that sense and you sort of develop I have developed I think um uh a greater level of sort of basic confidence that I sort of know what I'm doing when it comes to to writing things which I don't until quite recently don't think don't think I had um but then also there's just the kind of if you if you healthfully manage your midlife crisis and your dawning sense of mortality and being in the sort of much more decisively being in likely second half of of life and and and all the rest of it. There is just that kind of um awareness whether panicky or quite sort of up down to earth that it's sort of got to be now, right? It's like like when you know when are you going to >> when are you going to do that thing or travel to that place or learn that skill? Like I mean at some point it's going to have to be it's going to have to be in a in a now. Um you'll be familiar, I'm sure, with the the book um uh Die with Zero about um >> Bill Perkins, good friend, lives here in Austin, Texas. >> Right. Right. About how dangerously possible it is to defer gratification for too long. Um and uh you know so I've to the extent that you know to the extent that I'm a calmer person and a happier person than I was which is you know it's a mixed picture but I think one of the big reasons for that is sort of this combination of like I kind of know what I'm doing and also even if I didn't I would have to do it now. >> Hurry the [ __ ] >> that's a kind of that's that's a good combination of uh motivations. >> That's nice. I I I don't make a habit of showing my phone on the on the episodes all that much, but you might be able to read my new background. Come on. There we go. Can you read what that says? >> Do it anyway. >> Do it anyway. It's a gentleman walking up what appears to be a completely exploding ravine. There's this like cosmic hellfire coming down. It's quite artistically done. I think my prompting was my prompting prompting was lovely. But uh that's rotating that's rotating on my phone background with different versions of do it anyway. And do it anyway for me is kind of do it scared, do it uncertain, do it tired. It's not push through and grind like the sort of the just do it thing feels a little bit more forceful and grippy. And maybe this is just like total bias because like I did this one. Um, but I really love I really love Do it anyway. And do it anyway, I think, speaks to what you're talking about here, which is >> yeah, [clears throat] >> you you you don't know how maybe it won't maybe you you don't have 100% certainty that it's going to work, even though it probably will. You maybe it what like just [ __ ] just do it anyway, dude. And I think that that the doing it anyway becomes increasingly important >> the older you get. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like the maybe it's not maybe it's not quite the same point as do it anyway or maybe it's identical, but the slightly more um the slightly more uh the one that evokes a more British atmosphere uh for me is um uh is uh like you might as well. [laughter] >> It's so much more British. Yeah, it is. >> You might as well. Um but um like it's like >> Yeah. the the the stakes shift in such a way that like you have less to lose or maybe you never had what you thought you had to lose in the first place. Elizabeth Gilbert has that wonderful line about how you um >> you're you're scared to let go or to surrender because you're afraid of losing control, but you never had control. All you had was anxiety. >> Um which is a which I think is a a brilliant. Yeah, >> that is Elizabeth Gilbert writing somewhere. I don't know uh which uh which wonderful >> book it comes from. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How great. Isn't it I think there's a lot of pathy lines about you know true hell is when the person that you are meets the person you could have been or whatever whatever whatever. Uh a really painful version of hell is you getting to the end of your life and finally realizing that you had nothing to lose but you feared it all along. Like oh god like now now it's gone. And I spent my entire life fearing that I would get here the place that I was going anyway. Like I was always going to be here and now the time to do anything else is sort of passed me by. >> Yeah. Yeah. Genuine tragic uh situation. Yeah. >> What sort of person do you think is having the most fun? Do you ever do you ever think about engineering enjoyment as a a productivity strategy? [laughter] >> Um I mean I started off very skeptical about any kind of engineered fun right especially in kind of corporate settings but frankly even in one's own life because uh as moment you're the moment you're engineering it isn't it doesn't it stop being fun? uh the moment you're doing it for some outcome other than itself, aren't you just sort of monitoring it all the time vigilantly to make sure that it's uh that it's having its having its effects? So, I'm not sure this is this quite an answer to your question, but what it makes me think of is um sort of trying to engineer fun experiences is not something that um I feel I've had much success with. But asking myself in the moment in the context of the day what I feel like doing or what I would enjoy to do letting my productivity be at least somewhat guided by the question of like what I feel like doing has been a huge revelation for me. I think a lot of us probably the insecure overachievers right we go through life with a sort of deep lack of trust in ourselves. We think that if we were to just do what we wanted, we'd just like unspool and spend all day [laughter] on the sofa eating potato, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um and of course, it's not true. Like, you know, if you're interested in being productive or ambitious in the first place, you can pretty much assume that you're not the kind of person who's just going to become a a wreck if you were to uh ease up on yourself a bit. And the big revelation for me was finding that when I can pursue some kind of approach to productivity that allows me to take note of what I want to do. Firstly, you get to harness that energy instead of trying to um squash it all the time, right? It's like crazy to come up with these incredibly um rigid straight jacket productivity systems that say like even if you feel like working on X, you've got to work on Y because that was what you >> that was what you assigned. >> You're just wasting your own energy. Um and then secondly the big discovery is that actually you know I I among the things I enjoy sometimes is things that involve you know work or administrative things that I would would never have wanted to try to force myself to do but feel like I need to do those sort of the things that belong to the world of obligation. Actually, there there does come there do come moments in the day or the week when that's the thing that you want to do cuz you want to be the kind of person who keeps your commitments and is organized and all sorts of things like that. So, it's kind of a no lose situation if your professional situation permits it at all. I think to um to to navigate by fun and enjoyment at least uh a little bit more than you probably are doing. >> Yeah. You wrote about the idea that interest is everything. When you're procrastinating on a project, wondering why your outwardly successful career doesn't feel as vibrant as it could, or feeling stuck on a difficult life choice, it's worth asking if you've forgotten the importance of building your days as far as you're able around what actually interests you. And I think this sort of explains the bind that many people are in where they struggle to do what they want because they think it won't be as effective in the marketplace or something or it's it's not right for some reason. What they want to do is not right. What interests them is not right. So they nerf that. And you know, I've I've I'd be fascinated about to hear about your experiences with this because I think one of the um one of the places this is really evident is in any kind of um any kind of digitally mediated stuff including you know most of what I do um but especially uh a lot of what of what you do and at the scale that you do it right you have the capacity to really know what other people respond well to when you do it. This this phenomenon is famous in podcasting and elsewhere for leading some people uh sort of astray, the kind of audience capture phenomenon and the rest of it. But even if you're not being audience captured, you're still liable or susceptible at any moment to really decide that what you're going to try to do is is give people what they want. And I think as opposed to what you want to give them because it's more um interesting for you. And the big irony of course I think um at least my limited experience has been >> actually what people want is to read, watch, listen to things from people who are really alive with interest in what they're in and what they're talking about and dealing with. >> Before we continue, I am a massive fan of reducing your alcohol intake, but historically non-alcoholic brews taste like ass. You don't need to be doing some big reset. Maybe you just want to crack a cold one without feeling like garbage the next morning. Which is why I am such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. They've got 50 types of NAS, including IPAs, Goldens, and even limited releases like a cocktail inspired Paloma and Moscow Mule. And here's the thing, you can drink them anytime. Late nights, early mornings, watching sports, playing sports, doesn't matter. No hangover, no compromise. And that is why I partnered with them. You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'s bestselling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you. Or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped right to your door right now. You can get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbwing.com/modernwisdom. That's athleticbwing.com/modernwisdom. So true. Yeah. And uh in my experience, the further I've gotten away from what is it that I'm interested in, who is it that I want to speak to, the worse the show's got. Now, the numbers may have gone up, but if it's something that I don't care about, like maybe if you run a charity or something, you're you're a pediatric neurosurgeon or something, like it's on you. Your job is in service of this thing. And and it's the parameters of outcome are a bit more tightly defined. Like it's not if if you do the surgery and it goes well, it doesn't matter if you enjoyed it or not, right? Like what matters is the outcome. But with this the all that these sorts of conversations and largely even blogging as well, >> it's just vibes. Just what was your vibe that day? What was the kind of language that you used when you put this thing across? What was the sort of energy that you brought into the conversation? And uh yeah, for for me there's been times where oh, it would be tactically great to bring this person on. It would be um useful from an optics perspective or whatever. And uh I've done pretty well. I've said no to some guests on the podcast that would [ __ ] shock the world that I've said no to because I just it just didn't feel it just straight up didn't feel something. It just I was like no. The answer the answer was no. Mhm. >> And um the more that I've done that and the more that I've been like, "Yeah, Morgan Hel for the seventh time. Yes, Rory Sutherland for the 11th time. I don't give a [ __ ] I'm just going to do it." Like Rory Rory Sutherland accounts for like nearly 1% of this podcast ising [laughter] non insignificant amount of hours on this podcast have been Rory Sutherland >> and uh and you and I you know I just I will continue to do it and yeah this tension between >> what is marketable, what is effective especially because people unfortunately momentum is so much more important than ability or uh quality for a lot of things. And that means that if you play the game enough, you can then sort of burn and coast with I've applied some momentum and then I sort of get to come into land and then do the same. So that's where playing the game but knowing it's not about it. That's why I do think that there's an argument to be made. Well, yeah, you know, like this movie star or musician or whatever that maybe they're interesting, maybe, you know, we'll see see how you get on with them. And sometimes it's really great. often there's times it's really great like rolling the dice in that way to be like, "Okay, we're going to pick up a bit more steam and then I'm going to bring more people in to learn about some more niche ideas." Uh, that's not necessarily the worst thing in the world, but [ __ ] hell, there is an upper bound. And I if I start to stray beyond that whatever Overton window thing, it gets it gets so it's so dull. And you know that's why you've got this line in that um in that blog post where you say connecting to the aliveness is the ultimate point like just connecting to the aliveness of what the thing is that you're doing. >> Well because the other I mean the other point is like yeah when you said that you can take certain decisions that that are not like that but the numbers might go up. Um you know firstly you might want to argue that the numbers wouldn't wouldn't indefinitely go up if you kept doing it. there might be a short-term boost, but also like, you know, at the end of the day, why do you care? Right? That's what it always comes back to is like if the thing you're not doing isn't overall and in aggregate uh a sort of a meaningful experience, then once you've got like, you know, basic food and shelter taken care of, why why would you um why would you do it? And it's I mean, I say it as if it's an easy thing to remember. It's obviously we're all forgetting it. uh all the time and kind of pursuing these instrumental goals that lead to other instrumental outcomes and kind of losing sight of whether they're all Yeah. It's the thing about uh climbing a ladder and realizing it was the wrong >> up against the wrong wall, >> leaning against the wrong wall or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh that's a really good point. I've been thinking about this with the advent of AI because everybody has now anyone that writes or or or speaks or [ __ ] anybody uh has the potential to augment their process by using AI. And [clears throat] one of the things that it's given us the opportunity to do is basically put out it take credit for work that we didn't do at a scale that no one's ever been able to in the past. [laughter] >> Right. Right. People have done it in organizations and stuff at a lower scale. Right. Taking credit for their what their underlings produce. But this is like >> you know but it this is nuclear. Yeah. >> It really it is. It is. and it's available to everybody and it's available in sort of micro ways. For instance, let's say that you and your partner had an argument and it would be really good for you guys to make up and you go to chat GPT and you load the last few messages in and you say, "Can you write me a reply that is meaningful and loving that compromises without completely destroying my boundaries and will make my partner feel great? Please refer to as many psychological principles as you can, but keep it light and light-hearted. We've been together for about 5 years. Send. They send you that back. You send the message over to your partner. Let's say >> your partner goes, "Baby, I'm so glad you sent me that message." It made me feel so good. I I just, you know what I love about you? And then all that you hear coming into your ears is, "I'm a fraud. I'm a fraud. I'm a fraud. I'm a fraud. Liar. Liar. Contrived. Conceitful." like because you do not get to capture what is truly happening here. It wasn't you. It wasn't your genesis. What someone's saying is thank you for showing me you and thank you for how wonderful for me to be the progenitor, the muse, the inspiration for your thoughts. And because you didn't do it, you don't get to capture any of that goodwill. >> Yes. No, that's a great it's a great and kind of chilling example, although I know that lots of people are are uh doing it. And I think that yeah, I mean I think that um I wish I could attribute this argument because it's not my own. I'm borrowing it from something I read and I can't remember where I read it. But I think that um a lot of what happens when you use um LLMs in that kind of context to sort of it's again it's like wanting to stay in control, right? It's wanting to sort of control and direct the process. make sure you say the right thing. It's totally not about the fact that a lot of relationship happens in the repair that follows saying the wrong thing, right? Um so you have to sort of go wrong first. But somebody was making the argument that you know it's a very very old observation that everyone seems to speak in therapy speak these days and sometimes this leads people to go on tirades against therapy itself. Um, and I always want to I always want to kind of say these are two totally different things, right? And I I couldn't really put words to it, but I saw this argument made that actually a lot of the therapy speak, especially in the obviously in the last couple of years or whatever, is is really the kind of generic output of um both of language models and of the kind of brains that use them too much and come to think and and speak like them. It's the exact opposite of really good therapy, which is about, you know, at least in the tradition that I'm familiar with, is about like long-term real relationship with another conscious emoting human being. and absolutely doesn't need to be full of, you know, so-called therapy speak and jargon terms and um, you know, turning every human experience into a into a sort of technical path path pathology or something. It's completely different. But that feeling that everyone is kind of thinking too hard about what they're saying, >> figuring out what to say first. Even just the nature of textbased communication and email and messaging has allowed >> the ability to delete and >> right you think about it first you work it out. You know, even that is a bit secondary. >> Isn't that interesting? Isn't that that's such a great point because what what is it? Written language has been around for basically no time at all for human history and spoken language has been around for way longer and like editable written language has been around for a microscond essentially >> and the yeah that's a I've never even thought about that but that's a really really great idea that it does but how could that not create a an environment of self assessment and and cajoling energy and this sort of semi- manipulative coercion of Was that really what I meant to say? Was that Well, it's what you said. It's what you said the first time and the second time when you got to go back. No, that's that's more like what I meant to say. I'm not I'm not >> by any mean if if all books had to be published on the first pass, the world of literature would be a [ __ ] mess. But [laughter] um I I I I think that's a a really interesting insight. Going back to the uh the idea about engineering enjoyment, I think the really impressive magic isn't in just grinding out difficult tasks. It's the very elite strata of people who are able to turn something enjoyable into a drag. Like that is it's it's kind of like inverse stoicism. you're you're you're insulated from the good things happening to you when you manage to turn everything into something negative. So, I had a little essay uh that I quoted you in that I wanted to I wanted to read to you and it's called Frankle's inverse law. When a man can't find a deep sense of meaning, they distract themselves with pleasure. That's Victor Frankle. Frankle is arguing that a lack of meaning causes people to seek temporary relief in superficial pursuits rather than addressing the underlying existential void. Perhaps for many, maybe even most people, this is a big issue. But there is another group who suffer with the opposite problem. Frankle's inverse law. When a man can't find a deep sense of pleasure, they distract themselves with meaning. If ease, grace, joy, and playfulness don't come easily to you, one solution is to ignore momentto- moment happiness entirely and just always pursue hard things. You become a world champion at winning the marshmallow test. You convince yourself that delayed gratification in perpetuity is noble because you struggle to ever feel grateful. The TLDDR is you prioritize meaning over happiness because happiness doesn't come easily to you. >> Oh, I love that. And feel uh confronted perhaps. [laughter] [gasps] >> Yeah, you've got I've got your line. It's it's significantly longer than that and I didn't want to subject you to the whole thing, but one of my favorite lines paragraphs from you is you need to do at least a bit of what you care about now as opposed to banking on finding time for it in the future. Once the decks are clear and life's duties are out of the way, life's duties will never be out of the way. And so if you really mean it, when you say you'd like to write a novel or spend more time with your aging parents or fighting climate change or having fun, at some point you're just going to have to start doing it. And I think that uh the the the category of people for whom ease, grace, joy, momentto moment happiness are more difficult to access. They have learned that a lower efficiency but higher reliability fuel is to just do hard things because the sense of satisfaction can kind of always be achieved even if the sense of joy can't. That's really interesting and I love your use of the word grace in the bit that you wrote is kind of is kind of really interesting to me as well because I think there is I'm slightly changing the subject maybe or developing the subject but there's a but there's a there's an aspect to this which is also which also maps onto uh the distinction between uh like living entirely in your head and in your intellect versus being kind of embodied in the world, right? Because a big part of um enjoying life and showing up for things is um is embodied. Um uh you know even just in the most basic sense of like like feeling the air on your skin when you're present in a in a >> enjoying the coffee as opposed to using it at the maximum possible survivable temperature in order to get the caffeine into your system. >> Exactly. Exactly. Um and so yes, I think another thing that uh you know that characterizes these uh insecure overachievers of which we speak and that has definitely been like part of my biography and I see it all over the place as well. uh is um is being really sort of in your head and really sort of not only driving towards the future but assuming that the only way to but that doing the driving through sort of cognition and living in your frontal cortex or whatever this very specific feeling um and I think you sort of see it I I feel like as I've got a bit older and more experienced with what I've been doing you sort of I um I sort pick up on it in people and kind of public figures sometimes, right? Not people I know personally, but it is this kind of it's not just like we're charging into the future, but we're sort of dragging ourselves into the future by our by our thinking in some way. And and it is there is something crucial about remembering that you're a that you're a body as well. Um when it comes to of course you can then be sort of obsessed with the body for reasons of like you know looks maxing or or kind of really obsessive kinds of physical fitness or whatever that are just as much about >> the future progress. I think the crossover the crossover between those people is is way bigger than you might think. Which is why >> the in the modern world the kind of dumb gym rat versus the hyperobsessive autist with glasses that doesn't lift. Those ven diagrams have gotten closer and closer together because the desire for control in the cerebral world has moved into the physical world as well and and and the reverse has happened too. Uh >> yeah, I I I think you're right to say people hope for they want this I I make life happen and that's beautiful agency. My friend George Mack is writing what will be the seinal book on agency right now. And um it's going to be fantastic. And I think I I massively value agency and high agency in my own life. But there is a a limit to the art of agency. I guess you could say like learning when to just be able to be on a set of guard rails. Well, I want to say even I'm going to read that book very energetically because I want to say that it's not so much that um agency is great and all but there comes a point where you have to I think it's that agency and control are in some sense fundamentally different things and that >> interesting >> my experience anyway has been that to whatever extent I can relax the need for control that's the extent to which I kind of acquire what I think of as agency or power or something, right? It's like when I'm going through my life trying to make sure that it goes the way I think I need it to go, trying to bend reality in a direction that I've decided that for em fundamentally deep buried emotional reasons, right, I need it to go. >> I'm actually sort of disempowered. I'm I'm kind of uh chained to >> You're fragile. Kind of >> You're very fragile, >> right? Absolutely. Yeah. And and again, maybe it's not everybody, but I when I when I don't need um when I don't absolutely feel like my basic worth needs something to happen, like that's when I can >> get fully lean into it. Yeah, that's that's wonderful. >> Yeah. No, absolutely. >> That's wonderful. >> Um so, yeah, I think I think um I don't think there necessarily needs to be any limit to agency. We just need to see and appreciate the sense in which it isn't to do with sort of this kind of um the kind of control domination based urge which has another agenda always than just creating and building for the joy of doing so. If you struggle to stay asleep because your body gets too hot or too cold, this is going to help. Eight just released their brand new Pod 5 which includes the world's first temperature regulating duvet. impair it. Their smart mattress cover which cools or warms each side of the bed by up to 20°. And you've got a climate controlled cocoon built for deep uninterrupted rest. The new base even comes with a built-in speaker so you can fall asleep to white noise, nature sounds, or little ambient Taylor Swift if that's your thing. And it's got upgraded biometric sensors that quietly run health checks every night, spotting patterns like abnormal heartbeats, disrupted breathing, or sudden changes in HRV. which is why it has been clinically proven to increase total sleep by up to one hour every night. Best of all, they've got a 30-day sleep trial, so you can buy it and sleep on it for 29 nights. And if you don't like it, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the Pod 5 by going to the link in the description below or heading to eight.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom a checkout. That's ei.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom a checkout. What is the cost of constantly asking whether or not you're living your best life? [laughter] Uh, it's a good question. I mean, most obviously, I suppose it's just that that is um that's a that's an invitation to find your life as it is right now wanting as opposed as compared to some um fantasy that you have of what your best life would be. I'm quite suspicious of the notion of of a best life. It reminds me of the notion of sort of fully realizing your potential, right? These are these are concepts. They're not they're not they're not reality. And they're also concepts that have this kind of absolute no no stopping rule, right? No no limit. like you can you could be doing absolutely the most amazing things in the history of the world and you'd have no objective way to know that you had maximized your potential or that it was your best life and there couldn't be one better. So maybe I'm taking your question too literally you really are asking that that's where you're going to end up. There's a really interesting uh tweet that I saw a couple of weeks ago by this lady who's a communications professor and it was a a clip of her and she was talking about how being underrated is a compliment but being overrated is an insult and how if you actually think about that what you're saying is why would not being as popular as you're supposed to be be a compliment and why would be why would being basically an overachiever >> with regards to your capacity and it's it's all just social signaling. It's all just you being able to say as the observer, I'm the sort of person that is able to detect in another that which hasn't been recognized by other people on both sides. Like I know that they're full of [ __ ] when actually people think they're good or I know that they're actually brilliant when no one else has re realized it yet. >> And um >> yes, >> that is kind of happening with our own judgments of our potential. that what we're saying is I have an estimation of where I should be based on what I think I can do, >> but the what I think I can do is plucked out of complete [ __ ] obscurity. And it is, like you say, a fantasy because >> what this is a good question that I sometimes ask myself if I get too self-critical, which is what else could you have done? What else could you have done that you didn't do >> in order to assuage whatever deep feelings of insufficiency are currently swimming through you? Like what else what else would you have done? And when you actually go through it, you're like, "Fuck me." Like, I mean, I could have gone to bed half an hour earlier on Tuesday and then that would have meant I could have got it. But I'm really, you know, I'm playing in the margins here. I I really I really [laughter] I really really gave it a good shot and uh just when you ask what else could I have done? Um you in my experience you find out probably not that much. I I I I probably did pretty close to what I'm capable of. And again what was Have I ever done my type A people type B problems thing to you? Have I given you this one? >> Uh it's not ringing a bell. >> Oh >> so maybe not. God, let me give you [laughter] >> let me give you this. I mean, this is I am I am just so shameless with how much I get inspired by people like you and Alander Boton, but uh this this is one of my best ones and this this came out of a conversation between me and George. I think type A people have a type B problem and type B people have a type A problem. Insecure overachievers need to learn how to chill out and relax. And lazy people need to learn how to work harder and be disciplined. Given that you subscribe to me, I'm going to guess you're probably type A. Some version of a walking anxiety disorder harnessed for productivity, as Andrew Wilkinson says. Here's the thing you may have already realized. Type A people with a type B problem get very little sympathy because a miserable but outwardly successful person always appears to be in a much more preferential position than a content being lazy but on the verge of bankruptcy one problems of opportunity will always get less sympathy than ones of scarcity. One feels like a choice the other like a limitation. One is a bourgeoa luxury the other is a systemic imposition. I need someone to teach me how to be disciplined and work harder feels noble, upward aiming, and charitable. I need someone to teach me how to switch off and relax feels dopamineergic, addicted, and opulent. Every underdog movie ever has a training montage of someone sorting their life out by working harder. None included a guy learning how to log out of Slack at 6 p.m. or finally enjoy a beach holiday. So, yes, Taipei people may objectively have better lives, but subjectively they're ravaged by the sense that they've never done enough. They wake up every morning feeling as if they've already fallen behind, and only if they dominate their entire day flawlessly, will they have dragged themselves back up to some minimum level of acceptable output, which means they can go to sleep that night without feeling like a loser. Congratulations. You might be very successful, but you also might be very miserable. Just work harder, bro. advice reliably makes everyone more successful in the only way they can be judged outwardly. There are very few issues in life which can't be solved by just working harder. So everyone treats it as a panacea, not a purpose-built tool. And on average, maybe more people do need to hear David Gogins screaming in their face to go harder than Echart Tle whispering in their ear that they are enough already. But for a certain perhaps minority cohort of people, they actually need to hear the opposite message. We need a parasympathetic gogggins. Who's going to carry the TV remote and the Cheetos? # rest harder than me. Type B problems are just as tough as type A ones, but they require a much less sexy solution. Peace. One that you can't actually achieve by simply working harder. >> Nice. I agree. I agree. I agree. I have those problems. I have had those problems. You know what? It also makes me something that would came up in the middle of listening to you read that which is lovely um is there's like a weird selection bias problem here as well isn't there which is that the see if I can express this the the people who are drawn to the hard charging >> Mhm. uh self-punishing, you know, work harder stuff are going to be pretty much by definition the people who don't who for whom that message is something they don't need, right? that that the the temptation is going to be for people to pursue those messages and consume that kind of stuff, read those books, watch those videos because they're already like in too deep with the idea that that's what they need to do and they need more sort of fuel to to help their um their sort of driving of themselves. And so and and probably the reverse is true, right? which is that people who are kind of um already pretty relaxed and into relaxation are going to be consuming a lot of uh relaxing uh content. So it's almost like you know it's like democracy the the people who get into power exactly the ones who shouldn't be in power or whatever. It's like the people who people who really need to relax are going to be the most prone to um consuming the message that they need to >> you just you you keep [ __ ] activating my trap cards all of them. I can't read you another I can't read you another essay, but it does go to show how astrally [ __ ] connected we are. Um I did I I I'll just send you I'll send you it and you can read it afterwards any um if if anyone wants to read it. It's called Advice Hyperresponders and and they can just search it on my on my blog. >> Oh, there you go. Yeah, that the the title the title shows me that that is uh >> basic basically the the people who most need the medicine don't take it and the people who are likely to overdose have taken too much already. >> Um And uh you know the the the most spicy example of this that I think still holds true was around me too which was telling men don't be pushy caused men who really could have actually done with a bit more confidence around women to take it to heart while the guys that were just blowing through boundaries all along disregarded it entirely. >> So advice is not taken evenly by people. It it amplifies their existing fears and predispositions and worldview. Yeah. No, absolutely. It's and it's also the idea that the the the I'm not going to try and quote successfully quote poets uh live, but it's the idea that the worst people are full of intensity and the and the and the the best lack all conviction, right? It's the same where that comes from. Um, well, this is why, you know, I'm not going to pretend that it was some sort of strategy in any of the books that I've written, but I do sometimes think in hindsight, and one or two people have said it to me, that I am uh that I might be performing some kind of useful and edifying bait and switch in some of the stuff I do in the sense that like sometimes I think it appeals to people uh who um think what they need is more time management advice or something like And then I sort of um uh you know if it works completely destroy their worldview from the inside >> l them in under a false false sense of dopamine and then pulled the rug out from Yeah. I mean >> so it's a a good point to make and I there's two things that I've been thinking about recently especially over the last maybe 18 months or so which is since the last time that me and you spoke. Um, [snorts] I have really [ __ ] tried to go on a journey partly inspired by you, partly inspired by Alan, partly inspired by Joe Hudson and my therapy and to be like, "Okay, can I be really good at what I do and and enjoy it? Can I try and produce at a high standard and not grip life too tightly?" And one of the problems of that this journey of relinquishing of certainty and control and all the rest of it, there's two things that have happened. First off, I've had to publicly say things that sound like they're in disagreement with something that I previously said. Um me saying that uh just work harder, bro advice, a sentence that I've almost certainly said at some point, like [ __ ] your feelings, just keep going, blah blah blah. Um that feels like I non- insignificant number of comments said something to the effect of bro sold us the problem and now he's selling us the solution. [laughter] Uh and I'm like well look if if I did if I did do that I [ __ ] sold it to myself as well because I believed it. So I I apologize I apologize for that. That also being said at the time I've never said this is the way to live your life. Like this is what I'm playing with at the moment. And I think I've caveed a lot around like don't just [ __ ] end yourself trying to get this done. So that's the first thing. The first thing is that you've The first thing is that you've you end you end up with a lot of criticism. I up with a lot of criticism. I think you think you end up with more criticism end up with more criticism being giving being giving the sort of rhetoric the sort of rhetoric philosophy that you philosophy that you do because it sounds do because it sounds it doesn't sound it doesn't sound like going from low like going from low agency to high agency to high agency. agency. >> It sounds like going from high agency to low agency. So that's the first thing. low agency. [laughter] And like the obviousness of just work, the the the sort of just work harder, grip it more tightly >> advice is so much more pathy. And much of my channel has been built on, you know, analogies analogies of that in the the orbit around that sort of thing. The second thing, and this is way [ __ ] harder, and this is something that I'm really interested to find out whether you had to deal with, and I think a lot of the audience are dealing with too, is a complete loss of congruence as a person as you try and go through this, especially if you've made you've wrapped a lot of your identity in being the hard charger. I get things done. I know me. The outcomes I get in the real world are because I do things. I I go to bed on nighttime and I think about doing things. I wake up in the morning and my plan is to do things like, you know, thoughts, intentions, actions, goals, outcomes. They're all aligned. And say what you want about >> Trump or Andrew Tate or [ __ ] Mamani or whatever it is, but they are highly congruent people. Like they are just a single line up and down. And this is why Andrew Tape recently lost a boxing fight. That was why it was so um damaging I think to some of his uh perception publicly because he had this sort of very congruent line and there was now this thing that had got slotted on the side. It would be like if you found out that Trump had started doing meditation or something. You go well this doesn't fit the congruence that we expect or if you found out that Mandani secretly owned a bunch of like bakeries or something. It's like it just doesn't I can't slot it in to to my sort of worldview and the going through this I truly believe that there is something on the other side of letting go and that is a journey that I'm going to try and go on. But as you do that, your real world results briefly and maybe even for actually a medium, a pretty significant chunk of time get a little bit worse because you've got to relinquish some of the strategies that you were you using previously before you've got mastery in the new ones. >> And you're saying all of this stuff and you're talking about embodying emotions and just going with the flow and learning to and from the outside, what it looks like is not that you've evolved into this newly enlightened ver. It looks like you've devolved back to the thing that you tried to only just get escape velocity from a [ __ ] decade ago. So this this loss of congruence between criticism and congruence, those are the two things that I've felt in the last 18 months since sort of trying to embody this a little bit more uh honestly. >> That's really interesting. I mean the criticism one feels somewhat kind of professionally specific, right? because you're Oh >> yeah, >> there's a strange Okay. The the criticism >> having a stroke. You're having you're having a stroke. It's nothing to do with the camera fading [laughter] in and out. The beginning of the end for you, although this is how you go. >> Oh, I lovely. Uh [laughter] well, it's you know, having an interesting conversation. There's worse there's worse ways. Um uh that's obviously a professionally specific thing and I had a slightly different journey in that I was being sort of sarcastic about um uh sarcastic in public about sort of self-help related things from an early point in my career and then became went on a sort of journey towards more sincerity which um does is does leave you open to some of the same criticisms to some extent right it's like you said this is all rubbish and now like the question I've been asked a lot is like you spent lots of your earlier career criticizing self-help gurus, but now you've become a self-help guru. How did that happen? And it's like I don't think either of the arms of that criticism are quite accurate, but anyway, that's a separate separate matter. I think the inongruence thing is really is really an interesting uh uh point. And I do think that yes, the the process that um sounds like we're sort of both on is one where you have to kind of be willing to move away from strategies that have served their time. And in one definition, right, that is the original um highly respectable definition of a midlife crisis, right? Not some kind of terrible problem where you start acting out and being weird, but just where you shift from the first part of adulthood to the second part of of adulthood and things that you used to get yourself established in the world or to to ultimately the therapist would say probably to sort of separate off from your family of origin and your parents, right? And become sort of fully fully existing individual adult human. they stop they stop working. Um uh they they they they're no longer the they're not going to get you all the way through the process of sort of coming to or or further along through the process of coming to sort of understand life and yourself and the endless um fascinations and difficulties of relationships with other human beings and and all the rest of it. And I think, you know, um I I think an argument could probably be made that kind of that remaining completely congruent, as you put it, all the way through your life and from early adulthood through to through to late adulthood is like a disaster. Like I think that's kind of a >> I don't think that's anything to be um to be celebrated at all because I think you know we all do know people who seem maybe we don't do I mean I know people we we know people who are stuck in the they're sort of the wrong age for the for the for the psychological outlook that they have in what you mean there >> well people who are sort of you know there's something a this about people who are acting at in their late 50s in who seem to have the attitude of some aspects of the attitude of being in your late 20s, right? Not necessarily any particular lifestyle choice. I'm not saying everyone's got to be like married and settled down and with adult children by the age of six. It's nothing like that. It's just that sort of there's something almost hard to put into words that is a bit too sort of right. They're sort of too intent on establishing themselves in the world or something. They're too intent on >> too intent on sort of um yeah, I think that I think that is a kind of a I think that is [laughter] a some there's something there's something kind of wrong about that. On the other hand, you know, it's never too late and people go whatever route they need to go to get to their midlife crisis. Um, uh, James Hollis, who I know we both are, uh, admirers of the of the work of, I think, um, the Yian psychotherapist, has this whole very excellent kind of riff about um, uh, how the goal of the goal of really good therapy is to like make your life more interesting to you. and how >> and how the the wide the wide world just sees this as like nothing. Like what a pathetic goal in life to to to to have a to to become more and more interested in in being alive. But he says like, you know, he makes the point that really that's like that's the whole game. >> Uh it's the most that psychotherapy can do, but it's also [clears throat] it's also all you all you need for a absorbing and meaningful and fulfilling life. that it and I think it's that requires this kind of change in development and I'm sort of going on and on now you can cut this out but but the bit the bit that um >> the bit of what you said as well that resonated with me like no I have quite recently gone through phases of feeling like I'm completely unable to work for like weeks at a time being completely like unclear about the direction I'm taking and like really sort of out of sort thoughts in ways that when I described them in very simple language sounds like I was going through like a depression or something >> um but it wasn't that it was it wasn't pleasant at all but I think it's better understood as these phases of like yeah the the the last way of doing things falling away and you just haven't figured out the >> the new way of doing them yet. one of the particular pains that you feel as you go through this uh whatever we want to call it this chasm of in congruence. Um one of the challenges is if you're around people who are highly congruent at the time you feel so inferior by comparison because these people know what they're doing. They're waking up and thinking about it and you you used to be peers or are comparable or maybe even ahead of them in whatever version of a hierarchy you've con conceived in your mind and you're like I'm falling behind. I'm falling behind this. Look at this person. This is how I should be. This is how I should be behaving. I should be a a singular spear of of of reason and and intention and action. And it should all be moving in the same direction and what I feel like is one of those red ropes that kids eat, sweets, and I'm floppy and flaccid and I'm all over the place. How h how their congruence is throwing my inongruence into harsh contrast. And that's a really dangerous situation to be in because what it causes you to do is it causes you to >> it's kind of like being a crab that's outgrown its shell. Come out of it and is now trying to force itself back into the old one. Like that's that simply is not going to work. But it will delay your growth in moving forward. It'll make you feel like [ __ ] [ __ ] the whole time that you're doing it because you're just going to it's going you're not going to have the nobility of your evolution or the congruence of your past version of yourself. Like both of those things don't exist, if that makes sense. And uh yeah, it's it's it's a it's a challenge being being in a period of transition around people who aren't is a it's a challenge. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. And the sort of um you know, you can get us you can get some way through it by reminding yourself smuggly that the reason they're so congruent is because they haven't uh you know >> grappled with the truths that Right. Exactly. But no, I think it's a real I don't think that's not enough. And it's and it's a it's a real issue. It's one of those times where and I think these we're not we're not easily susceptible to the advice that like what's required of you in that moment is like just to kind of stay, you know, just to um just to not restlessly uh leave the situation uh whatever they call that middle stage of the alchemical process, right? Where the where all the things are happening. It's like the the only the the skill you need or the the the um quality you need there is to is to just sort of remain there and to to stand firm or whatever the the phrase is, right? to be um to to not let yourself be lured by the temptation to just like fix it all and sort of nervously irritably start um start tampering and like it's true but it never gets uh I don't in my experience it never gets like um uh easy but it is um or pleasant but um but you can have I you know I said before that these these periods of nonproductivity in my recent past have not felt like depressions. I think you can you you can feel on some intuitive level when this bad situation of being in congruent compared to other people or not being super productive when you want to be being super productive. You still can connect I find to some some kind of intuition that like that this is growthy or generative as a wonderful way to put it. Yeah. like you're not when you really get quiet or write in your journal or whatever it is that you do, you don't it's not like life is completely meaningless. It's like I'm out of control and I don't know what's going on and I wish I did know what was going on, but something is going on. [laughter] Ah, this is so good. In other news, you've probably heard me talk about Element before, and that's because I am frankly dependent on it. Uh, and it's how I've started my day every single morning. This is the best tasting hydration drink on the market. You might think, why do I need to be more hydrated? 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Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below, heading to drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklnt.com/modern wisdom. One other contrarian opinion of yours, which I think is real interesting, is on settling. basically that people can sort of get more out of life from settling that when you commit to a person or a path more opportunities will arise because of the the newfound depth. Is this intention with the the creature inside of us all that desires maximization and novelty and and creativity? It's been interesting that that thing I wrote in 4,000 weeks about about settling. Um because obviously apart from anything else, this is a phrase that and immediately conotes kind of romantic relationships and dating >> and uh uh I don't think that's my role on your podcast actually, Chris. I think to come in and give uh dating advice. I think that I think that is best left to uh other guests probably. But the but the but the thing [laughter] that the thing that I was trying to say and that I think is just true is that it's not so much that you should settle in that context or any other it's it's that finitude just means you are settling right like what we mean by settling is accepting some downside in return for the security or um whatever else it might be uh that that you get through taking that option. and choosing that relationship, staying in that job, whatever it is. And and one way of expressing like half of what I write about is just like there are always downsides, right? You can do what you like. You only need to face the consequences as uh Sheldon Cop puts it. So, it's not really >> I think we get into the situation where we think, well, I'm the kind of person who would never settle. So, I'm going to max. I'm going to go for the absolute best thing. But what that gets confused with is I'm going to go for this thing that doesn't exist, that has no downside, that has no conse no negative consequence. When for finite humans, every choice, every decision on how to use your time or what commitments to make or not make has um has a downside. Um, so it isn't that you should do any one specific thing or that settling down to extend that phrase right into a long-term relationship is necessarily the right thing for any person at any given point in life. It's just the recognition that if you don't do that and you do the other thing, you're also settling, right? You're also um deciding to accept a different set of negative consequences. a lot of indecision, a lot of um uh uh commitment phobia, I think, in relationships and in other domains has this feeling of like I'm just going to keep my options open, >> but you don't keep your options open. you choose to spend that portion of time without the benefits of a long-term relationship, which might be right for somebody, but don't go fooling yourself that you're somehow >> like hanging back from like you're in the human condition, like you're not getting out of it. And this means that this means that >> um this means that you're making that kind of trade-off in every moment of time. I hope this is clear. I don't know, but >> it is. Yeah. Is there how do people know when it's a good time to settle? Is there such a thing? [sighs and gasps] >> I think that I mean rephrasing that question back into what I was saying. It's like how do you decide which how do you decide which trade-off to make? >> How do you know in a given moment which trade-off is the right trade-off? And I think an awful lot of it is is annoyingly enough kind of intuitive and beyond words and and all the rest of it. But I do think that you can become aware that the only main reason that you're not committing to something is some sort of restless fantasy of [snorts] not having to make any tradeoff. Um, so holding out for a kind of perfection that that doesn't actually exist in the world. Um, and I think when you become aware of that fact that when you see what game you're up to, then it's often very easy to see, oh, right, actually, yes, this is the this is the path I should follow. This is the commitment I should make. Cuz the only reason that's really stopping me from making it is this kind of notion that I might not have to accept any loss or disappointment >> um >> for making it. >> What are you working on now? Have you got a new book? I want you to have a new book. Can you have >> I'm trying to write a new book. I'm trying to write a new book. Um I'm I am uh endeavoring to write a book. Uh, I should be more I should be open about what it is, shouldn't I? I shouldn't be all koi. And >> it's probably helpful to the creative process to like uh put my cards on the table. I'm trying to write a book going into going in on this topic of aliveness and this idea of this mysterious concept that describes so much of what seems to be missing from so many people's uh experience and also to be present when things are going really well. this sort of intangible sense of um of uh of of aliveness. I I need uh some other words perhaps. And also I'm trying to get at this idea that a lot of what stops us from feeling that kind of deep sense of being immersed in life and doing the right things and the meaningful things and [sighs] and all the rest of it [clears throat] is a kind of um well the word I keep wanting to use is clenching. And then the correct antidote for clenching is unclenching. >> But my um my editors are concerned that the um imagery if I >> consider it's not >> talking about clenching and uncenching. >> I I it's a fraugh word. Have you considered grasping? Grasping is grasping is quite nice because it suggests that you don't yet have it. >> I quite like that. >> Well, yes. Yeah. No, absolutely. I think that's a huge part of it, but it's all Yeah. And I and also um it's the kind of it's the degree to which kind of relaxing into the situation that you're in is the pathway to agency and the pathway to enjoyment and all the rest of it. And part of this where this comes from in some ways is partly to do with the very widespread sense that people have that we're living in like really unnerving historical times and that the the sort of wider world is one that causes a lot of people to want to sort of like like um uh um clam up or or tighten or something. Um, and I think that this this move of relaxing into the chaos and the craziness and the uncertainty is one that like I think it's really useful just in day-to-day individual life, but I think it might also be a way of of relating to the feeling that whether it's politics or AI or a million other crises unfolding everywhere >> that that trying to sort of shelter from all of that completely is see I don't want to write I'm not an activist. I don't want to write a book about being an activist and making the world's crisis better. But I also don't have got no time for the kind of argument that is like just ignore all that stuff and focus on you know that just focus on your own personal life and your and you know building your business whatever like these two. So as ever I'm sort of annoyed with two camps of writing on on on these topics and I'm trying to find uh what I think people should do instead. >> Walk some balance beam in between them. I think If you were to say a book about aliveness, it would if it wasn't you or someone like you that's going to do it in a sufficiently sanguin and self-deprecating way, it would it would my my first sense would be a sort of cloyingly prescriptive framework >> spiritual. >> No, it would be it would be a framework. It would be too practical. It would be well the components of aliveness as by seligman etal in 1988 um that would no thank you been through that world. I think to call >> I have no plan to tell you. Yeah, I have no plan to tell you about the surprising neuroscience of this um [laughter] of this of this topic or um or [clears throat] you know um yeah the kind of what studies have shown um there's a place for that writing and I apologize to anyone I've no it's supposed to it's supposed to be there but the is the place for that writing supposed to be around aliveness >> like the the the the neuros the neuroscience of and you're right I like >> so no but this is really This is very useful information for me because I do struggle with the the labels and the words. I'm trying to do something that is not a kind of I'm not a spiritual teacher writing a book about how to um transcend the self, but I'm also absolutely not trying to get into that um that science-based um well-being stuff. It really is this sense that like there's a there's a quality to the experiences and the activities that we that we know are the right ones for us to be doing. And there's various aspects of modern culture that seem to sort of systematically um squeeze that out. And yes, I think it is all ultimately about control. >> That because I always think that >> Oliver Burkeman, ladies and gentlemen, Oliver, you're great. Everyone should go and subscribe to your newsletter which is the imperfectionist. Where else are you doing? Is there anything else to subscribe to or is it just that? >> That's the thing to subscribe to. Um my most recent book is Meditations for Mortals. So, uh that's the other thing to to mention here. >> Until the next time, Oliver. I appreciate you very much. >> It's a huge pleasure. Thank you so much. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been completely [music] destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. Come on.