JuniorDevSG Mentoring - Fireside Chat with Jerry Tso

Okay. Uh, >> all right. Jerry, there sure. All right. Hello. Camera's over there. I think Cameron can see us. >> Yeah. Okay. >> All right. Uh, hey everybody. Uh, good evening. Welcome again to the first mentoring session. Um, so today we have a special guest. This is Mr. Jerry. So that did I pronounce it correctly? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Jerry So and uh he's the uh director of the Singapore Development Center, right? Basically for PayPal and uh yeah, he's uh would you like to introduce yourself to? >> Yeah. So uh again uh hello everyone. is so happy to see like 7 o'clock uh Tuesday night. It's a great turnout. It's a great So, thanks for being here. Um like what Michael said. So, I do run the center here uh the technology center here at PayPal Singapore. Um my area of focus is specifically around compliance engineering. Uh boring stuff, regulations and all that, but uh we do support that globally uh from here. Singapore. So we have full house of engineers um you know full stack architects product you know sitting here in Singapore. Some of you are familiar face that work used to work here or you know are still currently working here. So you're familiar with how we set up but I want to welcome everybody you know here tonight. Um just have few chats yeah with you guys. >> Awesome. >> Yep. >> So we have uh the folks here are from the mentoring program. So dude uh with the mentors as well as the mentees here. Yes. >> And this is probably this our seventh batch. Well, it's it's technically eight because it's first of pilot. >> So it's zero. So off off zero [laughter] >> off by one. So yeah, that's that's how we like to roll. Um okay, cool. Um so I got a couple of questions that I like to pose to Jerry. Of course, that's his that's his muff there from his LinkedIn. Okay. Looking back, um, what's one piece of advice you wish someone had given you as a junior developer? I'm sure you've been a developer for many years. So, tell us about your early career journey, right? What's what advice and what's what's your early journey? >> I'm I'm assuming everybody here or most of you here that are mentees are sort of young, just got into your career, you know, couple years. This is what I was told. Uh, if not, I apologize. Um, I think for me, I think two things, right? Obviously when I was young versus now the competition now I think it's even more fierce right in in compared to maybe 20 20 30 years ago right but I think some things don't change right when you first come out of you know workplace what is that one best way for you to get noticed right how do you stand uh be differentiate for you know um compared to maybe your peers or someone else that you're trying to compete with in the workplace. So for me, I wish you know two things. One is don't be picky. Don't be picky about the projects that you take on, right? If somebody assigned to you, take that with a grain. Uh just take it, right? Because sometimes uh I think you'll probably hear a saying, right? the most boring you know task is nobody wants to take but that's probably the best opportunity for you to shine right so I think that's one don't be picky >> right your your objective is to learn second is anything that you take do it with a sense of craft right anything that you produce you want to do the best you can like this is this is me man this represent me because I do think it is very important early on your career and even throughout your mid later career your branding is extremely important at the workplace or just be out there you know interacting. So you need to think about what is that brand that you want to portray right? So the best way to do is do your work >> right. So basically open be open to every learning opportunity see every every uh job that or or work uh assigned to you as a learning opportunity and of course be professional build a craft around uh the work that you do. That's great great advice for the folks here. And let's go to the next question. So did mentors play a role in your career. Do you still have mentors today and have and how have they shaped your journey? >> Yeah, I I think you know today you have great opportunity like you can pair up come to a uh you know event like this and pair up. I I think you know uh while this is great I think it is great to get you know the the folks that you know you you have similar you know professions and and but for me I think you should also look you know the people around you that on the daily basis or the people that you work with are there people that you're comfortable in talking and asking questions for me that works the best because you know for mentor mentees there is that sort of um incubation period you sort of to speak that you know you you both have to click right but at the workplace you know if you are working with someone that's a senior of you and but you you feel like that's someone you know is is someone you want to look after or model after I think just go ask a question right go ask question you know ask him to to teach you things I think that's one one of best way to get that mentorship. So I think don't be so stressed about oh I gotta go out look for mentor. I'm not saying mentor is not great but you never you actually will find that you know the the co-orker work around you for someone that you admire. If you just go asking for help they typically will actually reciprocate you know uh to you and I think that's also a great form of mentoring. >> Right. Right. So be just go out and find somebody a coworker like your senior like worker tell me about this tell me about that I think as a junior developer we all have this license to be ignorant license to say I don't know can you tell me >> you know you and I myself as a senior engineer if I go to any company that's so new I don't know tell me about this right so whenever we see something new is we are new we are junior developer again >> right it's mindset we always look out for for >> and and you're asking different But at some point you're gonna find, hey, I'm more comfortable with this guy. This guy explains to me that can understand. Again, I think that bond will form naturally, >> right? But do you have someone that you that you have as a mentor now? >> I I think I do. I think, you know, I still go to some of my uh previous bosses that, you know, I used to work with, right? I Yeah, the familiarity is there, >> right? Um I think that's always the best form. Sometimes like a reality check. You go talk to one of your former bosses and tell you >> you're kidding, right? You're like, "Yeah, exactly." He gives you for like doing doing thinking that the way you think, right? Or something like that. So, >> pretty cool. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> Okay, let's change track a little bit right now. Nowadays, AI is a big thing. I think you know, everyone talks about AI unfortunately. So, AI and AI agents changing software engineering. So, what should junior developers focus on to stay relevant? >> Wow. Um >> so you guys use AI at BL right? >> We do. We do and um yeah I think AI is certainly moving very fast but I think one things that the fundamentals uh around judgment right fundamentally it is humans still has to make the final decision and then just take an example for compliance anything compliance related right and I trust AI to just roll things out obviously not everything that gets produced by AI still needs to be verified right by by a human right so the important thing is okay AI is going to be I mean AI is already very good at generating so many different thing and looks like you know they they can BS you it's like wow this looks really good but at the end of the day is do can you provide a judgment ultimately you're going to be making a call asking the question understanding why AI gave you this answer, right? So, I think that piece is, you know, will continue to be relevant even as AI continues to advance. >> Yes. Let's double check a little bit into the concept of judgment. I call it taste. Yeah. Right. You your taste along what is good code, what is bad code, what is what good architecture, what all that stuff. >> How do they develop that? How do you suddenly think they the folks here could develop more better judgment or better taste? >> Wow. I mean again getting a mentor and seek help right to help um I think how do you hone the skills of asking the right questions right the wise and wise and wise and why really dig into the root of things right so I think at the end of the day is when AI produce something can you actually you know uh explain it very clearly exactly how things are being built behind the scenes and I just take time I think to to really practice and >> yeah so I think in consulting we have this thing called ask five wise ask why a why five times right so it's kind like so you can dig deeper into the the heart of the problem or heart of the the you know what is it that clients care about or what we care about as engineers right so that's cool that's cool >> yeah so so that gets into you know on the behavioral side the curiosity >> how do you stay curiosity >> rather just let something sort of say okay this okay Yeah. >> So I I kind like I like that AI is picking the playing field quite even. So everyone's like equally nope when faced with AI like every every six months or so something new pops up. Right. >> Exactly. >> So how do we keep a breast of all these things? How how do you keep a breast of all these things like new new developments out there and all that stuff? >> I mean um obviously you try you you try to you know play around yourself you know when new thing comes out >> right. The hands on the hands on the hands-on approach right? figure out some project you want to do at home and just try it out what's out there. Secondly, I I think uh a little bit on the mentoring aspects of it. A lot of you are looking at um getting mentors from senior folks on experience of different things. For me is actually I would go to sort of you know probably people that are younger that you know that are on the AI every day. I ask them to explain to me how things are working. You know you may or may not heard the the term reverse mentoring. Oh, >> right. So, so it's also like I could learn a lot from all of you, right? Just asking a question or things that I'm passionate about. So, I think that's another way I think it's it's a great way for me to learn things as well. Yeah. >> Right. So, you know, that's how >> I had this instance where I asked my junior developers, tell me more about this source code. What do you what do you just write? He told me I don't know. >> Oh, >> because I mean Claude helped him write the right. So right. >> So he would tell me his recommendation to me is just ask client. >> Yeah. >> At first I was like a that this is not the behavior I wanted but but come to think of it but I take take took a step back being curious again being curious like why does he think that way? Maybe that's the new new MMO right there. There's a new way of doing things. >> Ask Claude figure out ask check. >> Yeah. Yeah. Ask Yeah. Ask why? Why? Like >> Yeah. the the the the fundamental is do you understand what AI is telling you? >> Yeah. I don't just assume like oh yeah okay it's great >> right or like like I don't know that's no >> no no I think that's that's a worrisome if if I again in my current shoes if I'm compliant ask him like how did you determine >> right we should be compliant on this and that if you say I don't know I'd be very worried >> right so yeah >> okay so I should reflect on that a bit more [laughter] >> yeah so >> all right maybe let's go to the Next question. So um when hiring junior engineers, what makes a candidate stand out beyond their resume? I'm sure a bunch of us here are also looking for job or perhaps >> interested in how the job market is like. >> Sure. >> What do you look out for? >> Um I think couple thing I I think the technical chaps again is is sort of basic and now today you have AI. I think it's you know it's it's sort of that's the basic right. But I think beyond that, a couple things stood out for me. Like at the workplace, what's what's one you're going to be working in teams, you're going to work with different people. What's what's one of the most important things is communication. Can you articulate and communicate well on the problem you're trying to solve, on the solution you're trying to, you know, uh, create, etc., etc. How do you explain, right, the technical jargon you have to a non-technical person in a very structured, succinct way? I think that's a great skill you all need to have. >> Communication skills. >> I remember when I I mean I I do a bit of hiring at my workplace as well. So one of the one of the dimensions or things they ask us to look out for does this person collaborate well? Does this is this person a communicator? Right. Yeah. >> So I guess that's really important. It's not just about communicating but what I think you have interesting what you say just quite interesting that you have to know the keywords. >> Yes. you have used the right technical jargon right um that we uh we associate with mastery we associate with like hands-on experience or something like that right so exposure to those uh things right >> there there was a candidate I I interviewed recently that >> yeah he he was >> supposed to be a senior engineer but the terminologies and words he used didn't seem to >> you could be brilliant at your work >> right creating amazing application thing But if you can't communicate and tell others all about >> right it's it's as good as you know and and as you move on in your career path more and more is going to be about influencing right how do you influence the idea that you have solution have to other people to buy in and that's where this comes in so and and again I I think this this takes time right to hone that skills you know but some people does a great you know coming out of school I've seen amazing presenters technically coming out of you know polies or unis that they can do you know they maybe they have taken courses and all but you know that is the skills that's going to help you throughout your career >> so I guess for folks who have gone through like computer science or stuff like that they probably will already know some of the technical jargon but I guess for the what about folks who had didn't go through the traditional like CS route what do you think they could do to kind of like >> figure all these jarens and technology technical terms >> again I think if if you have that curiosity m you will go find you will be able to find >> curiosity >> right curiosity I think the curiosity is is a thing and and typically in in an interview it's I think you can try to draw out of them you know typically on the paper do they have outside hobby passionate projects oh yeah and things that they do rather than just work yeah outside of work right yeah >> and and you know by digging a little bit that also show you what the personality is and things like that. So that that's how >> yeah I remember trying asking some of the candidates like what do you do outside of work right have you done some open source projects have you like do you do you write a blog post or or something like that >> um there's something else I was thinking about um lost lost track of that uh oh learning agility >> what do you think about that learning agility means how fast can you like pick up something even though it's totally new to you right >> no I think that's extreme in this day and age you expect to pick things up. >> Yeah. >> Very fast. Obviously with the help of Claude has helped you even faster. >> Um so you have all the great tools, you know, to to help you learn. But yes, um you know, be able to, you know, even if something new, be able to pick things up fast, research and all. I think that's also very important. And I think in this in this day and age, things continue to to evolve, right? So um so yes, you're absolutely right. >> Yeah. remember so when we do the lead code workshop uh practice sessions uh we try to practice communication as well so as a way of like how do you uh as you solve the le code question you also communicate your approach to the individual or the group that we were practicing in so I think communicating in technical ways is actually very important >> cool exactly >> all right next question so this is something that Hman put in so maybe aspirations. I don't know. Anyway, so many engineers wonder whether they should remain an individual contributor or pursue management, how should they think about that decision? >> Well, um I would say for I mean these are two different two completely different jobs, right? Um so I I don't think you need to think about that too much yet early in your career, right? the I think early career is to hone your craft and there are a lot of similar leadership traits whether at an IC or a manager right so I think focus on honing those skills first right and get a taste of it and see whether you like it or not then you make a decision later on I think that's the right approach right um I I have seen you know many senior here I see so very very happy what they do and they have impactful you know they do impactful work on the projects you know product itself for leadership or manager typically it's actually a very lonely space right sometime great a great day is you you do nothing or you get nothing done but you actually make certain decision that help move the needle right or unblock someone that you're you're happy about right so it is a very different job. >> Yeah. Because I think as a individual contributor or IC, you're judged by the line of code by your amount number of features you can deliver and and all that. But as a manager, that's not what you what that's not what you are measured for as in terms of performance, right? So like as I see it can deliver like 50 features, many merge requests and everything fixed number of bugs and that is a that is credited to you as good performance but as a uh manager that's not what I measured for you. In fact the more I write code actually the worse it is because I'm now getting in the way of my developers and getting things done right. So >> yeah, so it's is really about um helping the team do the things they need to do, remove blockers for them and then kind of like help them uh help the team achieve the goals that we want as a as a >> and then you can get that experience at IC, right? Just start with leading a small team doing a project, right? Mentoring a new hire. Yes. >> Right. A junior person, >> right? Or unblock someone, right? If you have experience. So all those thing gives you the experience what a management could potentially look like >> and then see if you like it or not. Then you have that conversation with your boss or someone. >> Yeah. >> To to to help you. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because to be a manager, you also need to like to talk to people. >> You have to deal with conflicts a lot. >> Conflicts. Yes. Yes. So >> Yeah. People. >> Yeah. you like to listen to complaints. >> Yes. >> Solving uh difficult people problems then okay you're on the right track. >> Yeah. When you're dealing with code code problem is just bug is there I'll fix the bug right. So human problem is like oh god [laughter] how >> you know. So yeah cool cool cool. So um that's all the plan questions I have. Um do you guys have any other questions? I do. >> Okay. >> What was the turning point on your career? >> Sorry. >> What was my turning point in my career? >> Yeah. >> Um >> turning point. >> Okay. I I will give you two. Okay. One obviously it's a transition for me from IC to manager. So that that was really and that was oh gosh I won't reveal when but you know and and I actually hop on to this management track also accidentally as well because at that point of time my you know uh ex manager uh decided to quit all of a sudden right and then we were team of four or five and everybody's looking at each other what do we do now and they sort of say hey why don't you play that manager role because we think you could fit so that was you know one second the turning point for me obviously is uh was when I moved from US to Singapore and pursuing a different career or or or different change right so I did grow up in the states you know uh started working there but I got really sort of you could say bored or just want to change the scenery right and be out in Asia so you know I decided to move sort of pick up you know when my wife who was just you know uh conceived we decided to move to Singapore that was a difficult decision but we glad made it that point and voila we thought we'll stay a few years but I'm I'm been here for since 2008 so it's been it's been a while yeah it's been a while so those are the two turning turning point yeah so so again for I mean just for those of you that's you know Singaporean that are working here obviously Singapore is a great place you know to work but you know I think it's also great if you think about exposure to other parts of the world I think that's also something you know that that will open your horizon quite a bit and help you in terms of for your future career as well right it's never too late to come back to Singapore right once you go out and so we've seen many many people that that does that but I do feel like having that exposure living in different places broaden your horizon and and culturally how do you deal with diff different different people that also helped me a lot. I also stayed in Shanghai for two years as well who working in that China culture as well. So that taught me different things, right? So but I wanted to experience that myself, right? Just to see on the ground what's it like, you know, you you I think I die a few few cells, you know, [laughter] for a few years. But again, I think that also helped me uh shape shape my belief where I am today. So something to think about. >> Cool. Next question. What can you say motivated at work like to continue learning even after hours and doing this kind of mentoring session? I'm sure that it takes a lot of energy and time. >> Well, I I I think similar to a lot of the mentors here when I read sort of the profile all wants to give back, right? So, and especially like PayPal Singapore, we we also, you know, hire a lot of interns and new grads. So we believe that building up that nextgen is important, right? So so that's that's that's me. But for myself, why I mean why I stay here, I think it comes down to the people that you work with, right? Um in your workplace, uh are you enjoy with the work that you're doing? So again, for compliance, I mean it seems like the pace is picking up faster and faster every year. So and that's job security as well. Yeah. So, so good work, good people, good environment. I think that's how can be motivated throughout. >> Yeah. >> Thanks. Oh, >> question. So, >> hello. In relation to the question related to choosing the path of an EM versus um the individual contributor path, yeah, how do you actually in PayPal create that conducive environment for EMS to grow in their track as well as personal individual contributors to show for themselves? >> So for for IC's that um wants to become a manager, right? So to do that here at PayPal I think again like what I talked about earlier we would you know first we have a conversation right I think anytime IC you know wants to you talk about your career career objective so have that conversation first second and and and the manager would talk to IC as to okay what what's the rationale you know what why you decide to do this so just make sure started clear once that's clear then we as I see to again we give exposure to them on some of those leadership skills for example okay I will ask you to start leading a team of four or five doing this project you are accountable right for that project and the people around you assigning task so they give an exposure on what's what's it like right being the lead and um sort of managing the people in the task right so get that experience so so my point is we would sort of give a a little bit of that taste for about six months or so depending on people's progression and and then we evaluate right whether a person is ready or not. If it's ready then really the next step is is there an opportunity within the team for for them to become manager and and that's really a situational at that point of time to say is there a need for the business to you know so so that's that's the process for a engineering manager who who wants to continue to uh grow and progress obviously you know they would manage their domain like for first line manager is to evaluate They're managing their do their immediate domain well right as they continue to move up then you start giving them additional responsibilities or task right at a organizational level or you know sort of the more complex uh more complex projects that deal with more crossunctional teams right and then you evaluate whether that person can be successful not because uh as I mentioned Earl earlier as you go up the ladder especially on an engineer manager perspective more and more is the influencing collaboration how do you bring all the different teams together sometimes in different location all together to accomplish something right versus you you as a frontline just one team right looking after so it's about complexity of projects stakeholders that you deal with so that's how engineer engineering managers will continue to grow right and becoming director and so on so forth. So that's the typical path that we would we would do. Well, although in this day and age, I I could say it is more challenging though. You see on in the street, uh there's actually a more notion of flattening, right? The organization, there's actually less managers, right? So that's the trend that we're in right now. Unfortunately, >> there are some companies that goes for like um keep it small, keep it lean. Yeah. Then there also those that has like 20 people reporting to one. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. So yeah, so AI is is bring changes. Yeah. >> Sorry. So do you think um manager typically has to be the technically compete bunch and also you find yourself managing more of the outputs that agents like AI tools um that software engineers products more states. I think these days certainly there's a lot more of yeah managing the output of AI verifying it and things like that there's there's a lot more uh your first questions about does the manager needs to be the most tech you know most technical comp I wouldn't say no >> yes >> right there's I mean you should have a you know great competent staff to help you develop but you need to be the ones that have you know be able to set the direction right for the team to go like setting how do you set the right goals right to achieve and things that's you know manager's job but um not necessarily has to be the most technical or the best person best engineers you know among the team know right so do you have any how do you feel about how do you feel about this >> there's a there's an author uh Jerry Jerry weineberg uh that wrote a book about technical leadership so the engineering managers like us or tech lead in technical leaders and technical leaders do three things and it's a very simple acronym MOI MUA M for motivation we basically motivate the team to solve a problem together then we organize the team to solve it together and then we innovate basically we try to we we believe in that the best ideas solve the problem the best but how do you then ensure there's good good ideas uh innovate We try what we try to do as to get the team to innovate is to give them space a safe space to voice out their opinion and secondly as an as an engineering leader uh we try to be quality controller to say yeah that's a good idea but can you do better or that's that's not a bad idea but you know have you considered this or that and then help them build up the solution to a better solution right so MOI motivate organize and innovate Right. >> So we may not be the smartest person in the room but at least we can help the team and not to get motivated to get organized and then to innovate together. Right. So that's uh Yeah. >> Yeah. Agree. Agree. So you mention about quick >> so you mentioned MOI I feel like there's more of like the team side of you know foundation not like the manager skill like manager skill that affects the team but how >> like like how like what kind of managers are the ones that actually stays in the in those like small numbers the one compared to like what do they actually stand out? >> Well, I'll ask you like what kind of manager would you like to have? No, it's like I think for me it's like one structure does company actually like look at that part of the sort of API to see what kind of to keep >> okay I mean from a per if you're talking about performance aspects of it certainly yeah I mean different company would have different KPIs on looking at managers right for those thing you talk about. I think ultimately you look at I mean for for a company you look at results right for a manager okay are you commit you know are you delivering to your business units right um and how satisfied are your team members right that satisfied survey that happens right how many what's what's the quality right your team produces that comes to sort of the technical excellence you know how are you setting the bar right for your team to perform right quality right so so there are many different metrics that you know can look at but ultimately I mean different company look at different things for us you know we some of thing we talk about qualities that is important how do you motivate people how you delivering to the business business are you creative right in solving problems right to help solving problem for the business right at the end of the day it's about impact so you have a group of people under you how do you Cor that together to build something innovators to solve the problem. So all those things put together is it's part of the performance of engineering manager right um so those are the things >> I mean that that's just my perspective and we can ask different company will have different thoughts right so >> something I've been meditating on recently is about setting standards >> we as engineering leaders set the standard of what is good behavior bad behavior in the team sometimes is about the things that we ignore or we tolerate. So the things that we tolerate also sets um what they see oh he's a bad performer but you tolerating him you know what is that what signal you send to the rest of the team. So it's kind of like we have to set the bar high as in we expect high performance or good quality work from everyone make make it make make the bar a make make it a standard that everyone in your team should follow. Yeah. And then of course of course a weak underperformer maybe we can help them but again it's about not tolerating bad behavior and that what that's why >> yeah yeah saying the right standards point because I think in the age of AI is forget a lot of these fundamental things >> like that makes a good engineer or you know engineering everything AI can take care but >> you can focus on some of those I think the teams would be fine. >> Yeah. What about product mindset? Is that something that you you value in? >> Oh yeah. Like as an engineer, it's it's no good you build something if it doesn't help the company to solve, you know, to make money or solve, you know, customer pain points. That is extremely important. So having that business acument. >> Yeah. >> Right. Understand how the company's uh works, how your product serves the customer, what are the customer pain points. Yes. >> Yes. So I kind like draw a straight line from my my contribution to the company. Yes. >> Company goals, you know, profitability and all that stuff. >> I think all of you want that, right? You want to understand how does my work translate to impact generating for the company. >> Yeah. So knowing that is is is important. >> Yeah. We talk about landed impact as it has to have landed and not like oh still in the sky, still behind the future toggle. >> Yeah. Yeah. So >> cool. Great. Any any question? Yes. Sorry, we can pass it over. >> One, one last one. One last one. Last one. Yeah, last one. Can Yeah, thanks for sharing. So, just want to maybe just zooming out a bit more. So, you've worked across different domains and also different countries. Just want to find out if there's any one particular regret that you have throughout your career and then if given a chance, you go back and change it. >> Okay. Um, thanks. I I think be for for myself I mean I'm more introvert right and as an Asian you tend to be more quiet right in the loud room you probably don't speak as much but is there one thing that I would probably go back and change is just be more bold and ask more question in the room you know don't be afraid that okay somebody's gonna think you're asking stupid questions I don't think any any question is stupid questions but it just you know can to take that courage to ask, right? Um, and because you know, you don't ask, you don't know what you're going to get back, right? So, I think there are certain, you know, if I were to look back, right, in some certain instances, I wish I had spoken up a lot more, right, for them to hear my opinion and voice um to make them known. So, that that's really one thing if I were to go back. So I would encourage all of you right in different situation in different meetings if you have questions just raise your hand and ask right you never know you never know what's what outcome is going to come out of it more often than not it's going to be good >> wise words and with that thank you Jerry for you know >> thank you thank you hey uh again I want to thank everybody for coming out here tonight and especially thanks to the men mentors you know and also the mentees to pair it up together. I know you got a exciting program after this. So, um, have fun. >> Should we do like a group photo or >> Yeah, just a quick group. >> So, we just sit here and then >> Yeah, just take a picture. >> Maybe you can take one selfie with everyone and [laughter] then you take a group. >> Okay. You want to use >> Okay. Okay. Okay.