Jordan Robison, Natura Resources | theCUBE + NYSE Wired: Powering Tomorrow

Palo Alto studio connection Silicon Valley and Wall Street. I'm John F co here with Dave Volante my co-host. Hello, I'm John Furrier the host of the cube. Here at the cub's NYC studio of course we have our Peloto studio connecting Silicon Valley to Wall Street. This is our powering tomorrow series. It's about energy. We know that the AI generation is powered bounded by energy and money but also energy has been one of the scarce resources in the supply chain obviously the chips as well again this is the future energy is problem some people looking at space some people looking at nuclear that's topic of today Jordan Robersonson is here chief executive officer Nutura re Nura resources who have a unique way to build out an advanced integrated nuclear facility to solve the energy problem Jordan thanks for coming in appreciate the time >> oh thanks for having me. Happy to be here. >> You know, one of the things I mentioned on the intro is that energy is is all the top engineers and scientists right now are looking at okay, how do I solve the energy problem because even you look at the forecast the AI demand just the orders some are estimating that that's basically like the United States electrical grid. >> Yes. >> The total power capacity. But then you got all this dormant power. You got I mean there's a lot of like aggregations. There's a lot going on there. Grid the grids. Um nuclear has been really floated in. We've seen all the big hyperscalers. Amazon, Microsoft, talk about nuclear as an option and everyone's like, "Oh, that's fantasy land. That's way out there." Kind of like quantum was 5 years ago. Quantum computing now arriving on the scene. So, you know, these breakthroughs in science are happening faster than a lot of people are are seeing with AI. Nuclear now is an option. You know, I'm not a big scientist on the nuclear side, but I'm like my first reaction is okay, nuclear is good, but also could be bad. That's kind of would be might be a reaction for most people. Demystify the current situation. Explain what you guys are working on, the science behind it, the approach you're taking. Let's let's get into that because I think there are paths that I'm learning. You know, I think other people should too. >> Yeah. No, the the reality is a lot of these technologies were developed back in the late 50s and early 60s and they just weren't needed at the time for power generation. And so what we're doing is grabbing a technology that was successfully demonstrated in the 1960s at Oakidge National Laboratory, a liquidfueled molten salt reactor, and bringing that 60 years into the future, and doing that in a way that we can start small, demonstrate successful lensure with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, whose primary concern is safety, right? Show that we can license that technology with the NRC, and move into actually building a reactor. Um and so we're actively moving forward with a project in Abalene. Um where we've our technology is one of three technologies. It's actually been approved for construction by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and are actively moving forward in building a reactor so that we can then scale into commercial systems that meet some of those big energy needs that we're seeing. >> And you can hear the traders behind us all active as we've been here on the stock exchange floor. They love the energy. Yeah. >> And they and there's a lot of future. talk about the economics because you know all kidding aside about the trades there's a lot of thirst over Wall Street uh for nuclear and energy because they see the future there and also on the technology side uh we're covering the data centers are in massive demand. >> How is that playing into your your plans? Is that part of it? Is that big demand curve or just at the stage of just heads down get the science right? >> Sure. Are you guys still deep in the development or are you guys zooming out say hey what's the market applications >> right right so we are right in the middle of actually building our reactor system while at the same time developing our commercial system to go out and meet those needs um and so what we saw from day one before really we saw the AI and data center boom coming there was a huge power need that was already really kind of lurking below the surface I feel like what AI and data centers have done is they've shown kind of the tip of the iceberg and what's really sitting there waiting for Um and so when we started, we wanted to develop a technology that made sense on the marketplace without subsidy or mandate. Um and so in that it's really unique in what we're doing with a liquidfueled molten salt reactor. Um with salts, you can do some really unique things where you put together different mixtures of salts and you can actually control the melting point of that salt. So what we end up having is a system that operates at very high temperature but at atmospheric pressure. And so what that means is we don't need huge concrete and steel containment structures. We don't need exotic forgings on our reactor systems. So we can reutilize existing oil and gas supply chains. Um we can leverage small modular reactor fabrication where we're pulling that manufacturing offsite, doing it in a controlled facility and then deploying on-site for rapid assembly. And ultimately what we end up with is a system that's going to be competitive with natural gas and other clean firm sources of energy um so that it can go out and meet those needs. >> Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the clean piece because 20 years ago the clean tech or clean energy wave was starting. Not a lot happened now. We have more advanced science and capability. What's the biggest change around the clean tech side of this? Because that's really kind of where this works. If you get it working, >> which sounds like it's going great, then the next question is how clean is it? >> Oh, yeah. >> Talk about the change, what's changed and why is it working? >> Yeah. So, there's, you know, with nuclear technology in general, you know, it's a carbon-f free source of energy. And the big thing, it's incredibly energy dense, right? So, we can create massive quantities of energy with very small amounts of fuel on a very small footprint and do that in such a way that we're not having the CO2 and the greenhouse gas emissions. Um and so what you end up with is just this system that's very very efficient, very small, um but produces massive quantities of electricity without harmful effects on >> So you guys are on a path to clean energy with this. >> Absolutely. >> Explain that because I think this is a notable thing. This is like significant, >> right? So when you think about, you know, coal powered systems, natural gas powered systems and the burning of those fuels, you're going to have emissions coming off of those. Um in some systems, you can capture those and try to control that. Um, but with the nuclear fision process, we're taking the uranium atom and we're splitting it in order to create energy. And ultimately, we're we're generating lots of heat is what we're doing in our system. And then we're passing that heat down through a balanced plant, uh, generating steam, turning a turbine, and producing electricity without actually burning those fossil fuels. And so ultimately ended up with an incredibly clean source of energy. >> Explain the mag order of magnitude just scope just for so I can people can visualize it. You know, we see nuclear reactor as big concrete towers, cooling towers. What is it? What's the footprint like? Just explain, paint the picture. Is it like a monster facility? I mean, Albine, Texas, that's where the data centers are being built. That's where you're at. So, you're in a good spot. Congratulations. Love Texas for the energy uh angle there. But what does it look like? How big is it? >> What's it take? So first of all, our demonstration reactor is being built in a small facility sitting on a university campus in Abalene. As we go forward into our first commercial reactor system, a single 100 megawatt electric module can be deployed on less than 5 acres. We could then take 12 of those for a total of 1.2 gawatt and put it on less than 50 acres. So, as we're talking with groups about building out these thousand acre energy campuses that are incorporating natural gas and solar and all these different pieces, saying, "Hey, we need just a small corner of that, just 50 acres, and we can deploy over a gigawatt of power." >> Wow, that's huge. I mean, and I was watching some of the hyperscalers and the new AI cloud scalers. Um, they're in Sweden. They're getting all this land. You're talking about thousand acres to 15 50 >> 50 for 1.2 gigawatts. >> Damn. Yeah. And we saw Jensen's numbers uh from he's the CEO of Nvidia uh their earnings call and just recently he gave a talk I think last night that they're actually quantifying the economics per gigawatt. >> Mhm. >> And it's just significantly moved. If you look at their last earnings which they blew away, >> there's money there. >> Yeah. >> So you're like walking into a market that's hungry and instrumented. Yes. >> For this. >> Yes. Very. >> What's the vision there? >> What's your vision as you look at that market? >> Yes. So we we've got an opportunity to rapidly deploy power systems to meet that market. Um and so our challenge at this point is finding those customers that are saying, "Hey, we need this massive quantity of power and we need it as quickly as possible." Um and challenge there is you've got to get those you've got to get those customers bought in early, right? Because these are these are long development projects. It's going to take five, six years to get that technology deployed. Um, and it's going to take some pretty pretty creative financing structures to step into those first of >> Well, you guys got the molten salt reactor like that called the MSR. That's the the base technology. Talk about the business um the journey you're on, where you're at, some of the momentum you have. Talk about the successes. Yeah. So, Nura Resources was founded in 2020 really based upon um the vision of our founder and executive chairman Douglas Robinson um who ultimately saw the technology and saw an opportunity for that technology after he had spent 40 years in the oil and gas business and said, "Hey, I think this could be the future of energy and so this is worth spending some time and money on." Um, and so quickly jumped into that because we we saw molten salt reactors as this technology that could bless the world with abundant energy, clean water, and medical isotopes. And so we started small and said the first thing we want to do is show that this technology can be licensed with the NRC. Show that it's safe. When the NRC said you can build this reactor on a university campus, what they were signing off on was not that the reactor was going to function exactly how we wanted it to. They're signing off on safety. They're saying it is safe to put right here across the street from a brand new boys dormator and operate here on this university campus. And so that can be licensed with those incremental steps and start building things, start building vessels, start building pumps, start running molten salt systems so we can gain those learnings and derisk the technology as we move into the commercial realm and make it such that it's licensable for the NRC for the full commercial systems. We tell people all the time, the NRC doesn't license based upon assumptions. They license based upon data. It's >> and they have a high bar. Exactly. >> Just people don't know their the bar is super high. Talk about the Department of Energy because one of the things I love about this uh regime we're in now in the political environment is they're doing a lot of good work. They are >> they are interested. They are they involved. What's their role? Because now this looks like a template. >> Yes. >> For a path to clean energy. >> Yeah. That's why I tell people that um what this administration has done is really provided some unique pathways to accelerate deployment. And so with the Department of Energy and specifically the reactor pilot program which Nura Resources is a part of, they've provided um the opportunity to utilize a DOE authorization process to rapidly deploy technologies. And so we were accepted to that program in August of last year. and our reactor at Abalene will actually start under that DOE authorization process and then in the long term transition back over to an NRC license. Um but they've just provided some really good mechanisms such that companies can move forward quickly in deploying and demonstrating their technology which is going to do nothing but accelerate on the commercial. >> Talk about your uh your focus right now. Obviously it's the picks and shovel stages. You got to get the mechanisms out there, pumps, the workflows, you got the core technology and license that. So that's a business model. But once you get the playbook down, this a construction play there. >> Absolutely. >> Um it's an energy play obviously founded by the workflows, >> right? >> Talk about the financing, how you what how you looking at taking this to market as you guys hit your milestones. How do you think about that? What's are there we saw some unique financing around the neo clouds which are now called AI clouds uh because the GPUs and and the demand didn't have the same operating cycle >> as some of the facilities. you know, I got a 10-year lease, but I only got three year. So, that that got that's getting resolved now. Nvidia's involved and the big banks are involved here. That's on the the AI infrastructure side. >> You're a critical link >> to that AI. Have there been funding mechanisms emerging, new new ways to finance. Yeah, there were some funding mechanisms that came back or came out in about 2020 time period as a part of the advanced reactor demonstration program and that was the DOE putting a large influx of capital into these projects with some matching funds. We were a baby company barely even in existence at that point. Um and so what we've done today, we've raised $120 million in private capital, received $120 million appropriation from the state of Texas last legislative to go towards building that reactor. I mean that's that's huge support from the state. Um, and so we see it as our burden to raise financing to order in order to really develop the product so that we're ready to go out and be shovel ready and deploy. >> So it's process workflows. You got to commercialize process, right? >> Commercialized construction, build out, standing these up. >> Um, what are your blockers? What's holding you back? The just the time to get the >> the science right? What's the >> what are the key things that you're optimizing for around? >> Yeah. So if if you'd asked me 5 years ago, I'd say it's the it's licensing. um we've we've solved that puzzle, right? Uh regulatory licensing with the NRC is no longer the critical path for us, which is great. And so at this point, that's a huge milestone. >> Yeah, it is. It's huge. At this point, it's actually building, right? There's um there's limited supply chain for the advanced reactor industry because we often struggle to even call it an industry at this point because nobody's actually gone out and built a full advanced reactor system. And so what I tell people is I am not concerned with our ability to build one, two, three reactors. What happens though is once we build those first reactors and Google or Amazon or whoever says, "Okay, now I need dozens." How is the supply chain going to respond to build those? >> And real estate, too. 50 acres is still 50 acres. Exactly. Not thousands. Obviously, the thousand's not optimized. >> All right. So, I have to ask you because one, this is one of the most exciting areas in tech and science. There's a lot of cool I mean, it's a great time to be an engineer right now. If you're an engineer out there, you love physics, you love anything, this is like one of the best times. What are you guys looking for? Obviously is a huge opportunity. What are some of the hard problems you're trying to solve? I mean, folks watching, people love to solve hard problems. Yeah. Um >> unattainable problems. That's a different story. You go crazy. But there are hard problems. >> What's the kind of makeup of someone who might be interested to jump into the fray? Yeah. >> Um obviously engineering talent. >> Sure. >> What's the problems you're trying to tackle? >> Yeah. >> Yes. Share the the puzzle, the bigger picture. as an engineer. So, my background is in physics and mechanical engineering. The opportunity to jump on a project like this was a what I saw as a once in a-lifetime opportunity. We picked our family up, moved them to Abalene and said, "Hey, this is an opportunity to work on a technology that could literally change the world, right?" And so, we're bringing in talented mechanical engineers, nuclear engineers, there's a lot of chemist, right, for us being a liquidfueled molten salt reactor, as much as I hate to admit it as a mechanical engineer, there's a lot of chemistry involved in a lot depends on what our chemists do. Um, and so bringing in a lot of that experience there, but then we're reaching out to the existing nuclear fleet and the existing kind of experience on large capital power projects and building kind of a new workforce, right? Cuz nobody's gone out and built a molten salt reactor before. And so we're grabbing guys that have built coal plants, that have built natural gas plants, guys that have operated uh large lightwater reactors, and a lot of really expertise and knowledge coming out of the universities um and national labs and bringing that together to form a team that's ready to go out. >> So this is a generational shift. This is actually an energy a generational energy shift. So it's new whole new ball game. >> Absolutely. >> So you're borrowing best practices from other industries, but it's not a rip and replace, right? >> It's not a you know, rinse and repeat. >> Exactly. Exactly. It's very new with what we're doing. Although it was done at Oakidge back 60 years ago, we're really taking the legacy of what those scientists did at Oakidge National Laboratory and bringing it back. >> I have to ask cuz I'm curious. Was it just sitting around on a on a shelf somewhere? How did this what happened? How did this get exposed? Did someone just say, "Hey, we worked on this project or was it timing of other factors that were uh intersecting? What was the big driver here?" >> Yeah. When the when the technology was being developed back in the 60s, it was really for military applications. We wanted to build nuclear submarines and the decision there was solid fuel systems that were cooled with water. Made a lot of sense. Um these other reactor systems, we weren't looking at nuclear technology back then as a source for commercial power generation. Um >> so it got sheld. It was a R&D. >> It was R&D. It's it operated successfully and it got shelved because they didn't need it. Said, "Hey, we're going to burn gold." >> We solved the problem, right? Yeah. >> Exactly. Exactly. So now as we're moving into this new age where we need massive quantities of power and we want to do massive quantities of clean power. >> You start looking back and saying okay these technologies were demonstrated we just need to bring them 60 years into the future and start building up. >> You know what's interesting Jordan is that like it's almost the song is the same music. We're seeing old school ' 60s7s 80s tech in all fields >> come to the forefront. We're seeing even on the AI side, a lot of the stuff on the data ontologies and all this stuff that's been around all this AI science been theory, right? >> We didn't have the horsepower. So, the ingenuity and the timing, are there other technological factors that make it more viable now? Are there other forces um besides just dusting off the old R&D and applying it to commercial? Was there any advances that match some of the trends we're seeing in in of the AI era? there there's some opportunities to do that with advanced manufacturing, advanced materials, things of that nature. Those are in the future for us. Um right now we're trying to move forward with the the simplest kind of most base load system, right? We don't want to go to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission with the material that >> you got to get a reactor up and running. That's your job now. >> Exactly. >> All right. So, what's been the investor interest? Because this is the long game you're playing. >> Yep. >> What's the What's the sentiment there? Here's the cash matching funds. There's some sort of things going on. What's the what's the sentiment from the investors? Obviously, they know the demand, so they're like interested in that, >> right? Yeah. So, we've been raising since 2020. Um, we're actually in a current raise right now. So, we've raised $120 million in private capital. Raising in small tranches, you know, raise raise capital, achieve milestones, raise your value. Um, and so we're seeing a lot of investor interest because they're seeing the huge need that's out there. Um, like I said, it's on us to raise that capital, develop the product, and then go out and find some unique financing structures in order to do that. there's u many of our peers have moved into the public marketplace and there are some significant opportunities there um and those are things that we're going to have to weigh as an organization >> final final question for you smash the the narrative or out there that people might have fear um kind of the fear I had kind of coming in which is whoa nuclear we should really go slower u that's one fear the other fear is this is going to take a long time >> right >> um >> what would you say to those people that are listening and watching around the fear those two fears >> yeah I would say one of the big things on the on the fear side is um a lot of times it's it's radiation. You can't see it and if not handled properly it can be dangerous, right? Um but nuclear in its history really has a strong track record of safety. And so we're taking a technology that has a strong track record of safety and we're just making it more efficient and even safer. Right? And those are some of the unique aspects of our technology being this this liquidfueled low pressure walkway safe system. I tell people all the time that reactor is trying to shut itself down at all times. we're working against it in order to keep it running, right? And so, incredibly safe systems and for us, not hiding from the fact that it's a nuclear reactor, right? We do a lot of community engagement. We bring people into the facility, teach them what we're doing, how we're doing it, why we're doing it um in order to remove some of that fear and we're seeing broad support across the industry um for that technology. >> Clean, safe energy. That's the goal. >> Absolutely. >> Jordan, thanks for coming on. Powering tomorrow. This is our series around energy. Powering. This is not just an AI problem. This is a societal global problem as energy is a scarce resource uh and also the ways you can create energy and there's a new science involved. So again if you're an engineer you'd like to solve problems this is an area that if you solve it it'll be great for the world and the world we live in. Thanks for watching. I'm John Furry host of the cube. This is the NYC Wired program and the cube. Thanks for watching.