Jim Chapman: Overcoming Failure Anxiety, Finding Love & Life-Changing Therapy | E78

There's a lot of rumors surrounding Jim and today he addresses some of them for good. My dad, he was out of my life from fairly young. He was arrested. He was in prison for a while. He was definitely sociopathic. I wonder what man I would be if he had stuck around. Oh, I've lost count the amount of times I've been called a cheater. Me and Tanya broke up just over 2 years ago. Me and Sarah got together as far as the world is concerned a few months later, but obviously that wasn't it because the world only found out me and Tanya broke up when we decided to tell them. cuz I lost my [ __ ] the other day on on social media. So, I can take hate. I've got a thick skin. It doesn't it bounces straight off. I don't care. This is my job. It's not a personal reflection on me. But when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiance the names they called her and saying that my baby should be miscarried, that's where I draw the line. [music] Some people come on this podcast and they're cy. Sometimes they even try and bend the truth, protect their ego. Dare I say it, sometimes they even lie. Not my next guest. Completely, utterly, brutally honest, raw, unfiltered, and vulnerable. He's a British celebrity with six or seven or 8 million followers. But you don't know Jim. You don't know Jim Chapman. Almost nobody does. Today, we're talking about success, the chronic curse of overthinking. We're talking about love, breakups, rumors, both of the similarities in our mindsets. We're talking about how you need to be a contradiction in various parts of your life if you're going to be happy. Something I didn't realize until today, until this conversation. And we're talking about child abuse. Child abuse to an extent that most of us could and should hopefully never be able to imagine. We're talking about paralyzing anxiety, social media, its upsides and downsides, and what all of this life stuff is fundamentally about. Unavoidably, there's a lot of rumors surrounding Jim. And today, he addresses some of them for good. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. [music] Jim, I always think the most important place to start when I have these conversations is getting to know the experiences that made you who you are today because for me that creates the context for everything we're about to discuss. And a lot of the time people don't really know those things. Um, so tell me about some of the experiences when you were younger, when you're in school, um, that you think have contributed to the man you are today. Okay. Um, I guess, and God is instantly going to sound like a so story and it absolutely is not. This is a positive thing. I guess the first thing that springs to mind is my dad. So, uh, my dad was he did some bad things like he he abused my mom um, from even before I was born. I got two older sisters who, um, you know, dealt with it as well. I don't think he ever turned a hand to them, but he verbally was very I mean even I remember that and I was super young. I remember him being very very hurtful and very unkind and just bullying to to my sisters. Um I think he always wanted boys so my brother and I were kind of like I've got a twin so we were like the the prodical children I suppose. Um, it I didn't know this cuz obviously I was born into it, but it's not it wasn't until I got a little older and I would have like sleepovers at friends houses or I would just be in the presence of other people and their parents and I'd be like, "Wait, your house isn't terrifying? That's that's uh this is great." You know, and I think I got as I got slightly older, I realized that things weren't quite right. And it was one day uh my brother and I were in the room next door where we slept my my parents. And we walked in and my dad was like on top of her just beating the [ __ ] out of her basically. And my brother and I, we were only tiny, we must have been like five or six, tried to pull him off, but obviously he was huge, so just pinged us away. And it was a wild night, you know, the police came, took him away, um, etc., etc., just kind of and he I didn't know at the time, but he had been beating my mom and abusing her for years. [snorts] But of course, she was trapped. Now, my mom is a saint, but also she doesn't tolerate fools. She's not I think the thing about domestic abuse is a lot of people go, "Oh, just get out of there. Just get out of there." It's not It's not as simple as that. She had her kids to think of. I remember being in the car with my dad and he would threaten to just crash the car and kill us all. He drove like a maniac. He was drunk quite a lot. My mom couldn't just leave with four children because he found us. We tried to leave and he found us, you know. So I think um that he's very much a cautionary tale for me. Um he was out of my life from fairly young but never fully out because he you know was taken away by the police. He was arrested. He was imprisoned for a while but despite the fact that we had like a court order that he couldn't come near. He still came near all the time. At one point he kidnapped is a very strong word but at one point he took me. Um it just kind of came to the window and I was his son. You know he was my dad. I worshiped him and I still didn't fully understand. So I remember going to the window and saying, "Mom's calling the police. You have to go." And he just sort of went, "Okay." And just took me with him and drove. We're in a bloody police chase. Drove like super fast and the police had to kind of, you know, stop and pull him over. Um it was, you know, it's a it was a very unsettling time for a child. But because of that, he was removed and I spent most of my childhood being brought up by my mom and my big sisters. So I wanted for nothing. Um, I was very well loved, very well protected, super well looked after. And I think actually I I often wonder, and I was having this chat with Sarah the other day because obviously we've got a child on the way. Uh, and I was thinking, I wonder what man I would be if he had stuck around or or if we couldn't get away from him or whatever it would have been. Um, and you know, whether he wanted to or not, he taught me a lot of lessons. Um, but I think mostly cautionary lessons because my family are bloody great. You know, there's uh got two big sisters, I've got a mom, I've got a twin brother, and I would choose no one else on the planet to take those roles. If I had the choice, they would be the people I choose, 100%. Um, and he missed out on that because he was unwell, I would say. Um, he had MS and I always remember him you being a victim of it in a way. that my sister inherited from it from him. And she's so positive with it. Like she's not a victim. She doesn't let it beat her. She has times where she's tired. It gets on top of her. She has a little sob. She goes to bed. She recognizes the signs though and she goes, "Right, okay. It's getting on top of me. I need to rest for a while." I remember my dad just being like a victim of it and being like, "It ruined my life. It did this." He used to play football, from what I understand, a fairly highish level. like kind of he played for West Ham, not in the A team, but something and he was like, "Oh, the MS ruined it for me." Which I'm sure it did. You know, there's no question with that. But life deals you cards and you react, you behave in a way that you that you see fit. Um, and he let the cards life dealt him ruin everything, I think. And I think because of that, he was angry. Um, I also I mean, and I I don't say this lightly, but I think he was definitely sociopathic. He manipulated everybody and a lot a lot of it my mom didn't even know about until we were clear from him and then people start asking her for money because, you know, he owed it to them. I mean, he he went to prison for like armed robbery or something like he was just, you know, he did really bad things. Um, so I think for me that's kind of the first thing my mind goes to when someone asks me about kind of um childhood um formulation of me. But I don't necessarily think of it as a negative thing cuz actually I think that because he was removed from my life by my protectors by my mom, my big sisters, I had a wonderful childhood. you know, we didn't have any when he was around there was more money because I think he stole a lot of money and because he he took it, you know, there was two parents earning, but also he he earned it by sort of nefarious means. Suddenly, we had no money. Um, and my nan had to like buy the house that we lived in and we stayed at my mom's best friends for like a year or so because she took us in cuz we couldn't afford anywhere else. But I was safe and I was happy and I was like my mom had more capacity to be a better mom because she wasn't constantly running for the hills, you know. So actually I think that it's a really positive thing um that happened because imagine if he was still around. Imagine if he was still my father figure now. At 33, I'd be a mess for one thing, I think, but I'd also be I wonder if I'd be a not a nice man. And actually, I pride myself on being decent and kind. Um, and he missed out on that. I read a little bit about the story as I was doing some research on your book and things like that. And one of the the most startling parts of all of this is how much empathy, dare I say, you appear to have for this man, which I think people would find surprising. I think you said I don't blame him for how things happened. Yeah, I don't I I I actually I I think of myself as quite an empathetic person. Um I rarely have arguments with people. Um I do with Sarah obviously because we live under the same roof. Um and like we have disagreements, but your fiance? Yes, my fiance. Yes. Um although not at the moment because she's pregnant, so [laughter] she can do no wrong. Um, but I I do have uh I tend not to have like extra personal drama because I I do consider how it would be from someone else's perspective and I appreciate that. Yes, okay, I could have my say because I feel slighted about a thing and I could say, well, you did this and it made me feel that, but that's my feelings on an action that they um did and they will have equal and opposite feelings on the way I behaved because of their actions. Nobody I don't I believe nobody will go out of their way just to be a prick. You know, they've always got their thoughts and feelings and their motivations. And I don't think anyone's doing it like, "Oh, that will piss Jim off. I'll do that." You know what I mean? That they're living their life. We all live in our bubble. My uh my therapist calls it the lifeboat. We all live in our lifeboat, right? Um but we're all on the same ocean. So depending on how good your lifeboat is, you will weather the storm or not, right? There's a storm on the ocean. We're all in it. Especially at the moment, there's a pandemic, right? We're all in the pandemic together. But it depends on the boat you're sailing on. Um, and there are times when boats kind of bump into each other or someone's in a dinghy and you need to sort of tie them to yours for a while and help them get through things or whatever. Um, but I really don't feel like anybody is purposely um an ass. It might be manipulative. They might see a way that they can behave that will um better them in in a situation where they go, "Okay, I'll come off better with that." And it might it might do him no favors, but you know, they're not doing it for that reason. They're doing it for that reason. They're doing it because they want to um have a better situation for them, not just to piss me off. So, I tend not to have arguments. I will say to someone, "That's not cool. Can you see that from my perspective?" Um, and do you and and do you think so when you think about your the situation with your dad, it seems like from that you you avoid attributing blame to him and then so I'm I'm questioning myself. I'm saying is that because you understand the reasons why he was the way he is or um you have empathy for I have Yeah, I just I think I just have empathy for for people. I don't I think there's definitely blame. I think we all we all have to own our own actions. Um, but I think there are also there are reasons behind actions. I don't think it's ever as simple as he hit my mom just because he's aggressive. I think you have to dig deeper. Like my my my granddad was so his dad not okay. I remember being I remember going to his house and he'd be like watching not porn but like softcore in front of us, you know, as just he was just I don't I don't know if he was just a bit like um scenile at that point or or or what, but you know, it's not all right to do that with young kids around. Um and you see these generational cycles, right? 100%. Yeah. And I'm very proud and very happy to have broken that cycle because, you know, I don't I don't know what his dad was like, but my granddad taught my dad his behavior. Not all of it because I actually I actually do think there was um I actually do believe my dad had sociopathic tendencies which isn't necessarily a taught thing. It's more like a brain function thing, you know. Um but I think there was definitely something there and it didn't help having his dad teach instill in him certain beliefs and patterns or whatever. Quick one. Starting from the minute the lockdown is lifted, we're going to start bringing in some of our subscribers to watch how this podcast is produced behind the scenes means you get to meet the guests, meet myself, and see how we put all of this together. If you want that to be you, all you've got to do hit the subscribe button. My mom is a very loud person, and that's a huge [clears throat] understatement. Like, loves to scream in people's faces, very short temper. My dad is a certain way. And as I've got older and older, I've got more conscious that at times I feel like myself becoming a little bit like them in certain moments. And it scares me sometimes. I think and I think well genetically of course I'm half of each of them. So um have you ever has it ever concerned you in the same way that you might have picked up some of the unpleasant traits of either of your parents? Um has crossed your mind. I'm turning into my mom for sure. My mom my mom has unpleasant traits only in as far as she for example when I moved house wouldn't stop going on about parking like that sort of thing. Oh you better get parking. My mom I live in London you don't get off streetet parking. I've got a parking permit. I park around the corner. That's my life. But she's like oh you need to get a driveway. I'm like no I don't. Like that's the sort of thing she won't let it drop. She's got a fact in her mind about um Trump for example and she goes oh Trump's bad. He did this thing. I'm like yeah but what about all the other things he did? you know, so she's um that's her kind of annoying trait. And if that's the worst I get, then I'm fine with that. Um as far as my dad, I don't think I mean, yeah, like I say, he's half me or I'm half him, I suppose. Um but I think that the thing is my my degree is in psychology, right? So I know a little bit about it and I'm always quite conscious. Like I know for example, there are certain genes that will only get triggered under certain environments. So yes, all right, I might well have his gene for something, but if I don't if I'm not in a environment where it's had to uh where it would have expressed itself, then I might never. And I also think that there is an element of um I guess consciousness that can override that. Self awareness. Yeah. Self awareness and education because therapy, psychology, totally. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very um I work on and I I hate this I hate saying this because it sounds like really wanky, but I work on bettering myself, you know? I I I know my flaws. I work too much. Like I forget to bring my head up and I neglect Sarah sometimes because I'm too busy typing away or I'm too busy in my own little world stressing about whatever I'm stressing about, which doesn't need to happen, but it does and I I'm aware of that and that's the sort of thing I work on. But I've never been aggressive, never been violent. Um I weirdly I do boxing quite a lot but it's not about the violence of it. It's about the chess of it. Like I really like the it's an intellectual sport. You know, you have to be smart. You have to think about where you're positioning all the time. Um and I've never this is not I don't know if this is not in my nature, but it's something that I won't entertain. There are times where I get driven bonkers by Sarah or by people and I just think, "Oh my god, I could just like nut you right now." Obviously, I'm never going to because it's just every fiber of my being is would not allow me because I've seen the impact. I've seen I'm 6' three. I could do some real damage. Um, but I just never would. So, I I I do get loud sometimes if I'm, you know, if we're having an argument, I will kind of just talk louder. And I think with me and Sarah in particular, it's tricky because we're both quite smart. And [laughter] so when it comes to an argument, we're just trying to outsmart each other the whole time, which makes it really frustrating. We're both going, "No, you're wrong because of this." [laughter] And both of you are right. Yeah. And actually, yeah, there's truth in both. Um, for sure. Um, but it's really hard to see that when you've got your blood up, you know what I mean? But I totally think that there's no there's I've got I like to think I've got the best bits of my mom. Um, and if there is any kindness in my dad and and I remember moments. I don't I don't have loads of memories of of him. 90% of them are negative and scary. But there are moments I remember him sitting down with me and reading there was a magazine, I forget what it was called, but he used to get like um little bit of a figure every time and he'd make the figure and it was like something to do with bugs and we made a big spider. 12 quid per magazine basically. Yeah. Really, really overpriced. But I remember him um he would read it with me from cover to cover and we'd put the bug together. Now, there would end up being six issues um that we didn't get done and we'd have to do them in one go because he wasn't around because he was gone doing whatever he was doing and um he would let me down a lot. But I remember doing them and I remember loving that time with him. Um what kind of dad do you want to become? Because you've got a kid on the way now. Congrats again. Yeah. [laughter] Thanks. Um, it's really hard to say this because I know that every first time prospective parent goes, "Oh, I'm going to be the best dad." And actually, you know, invariably we'll all [ __ ] up at some point, right? It's going to happen. Um, I just I think for me if I can have a child and if I can instill in them the waste of time in anxiety like that just the the just the sheer nonsense of it. Like I I really want them to understand that worrying does nothing. You know, yes, all right, we can be stressed about things. There are times when life is hard and things there's challenges to overcome, but you overcome those challenges when they present themselves. There's no My therapist once said to me, when you worry, you rob yourself twice, right? Because the first time around, you're overwhelmingly thinking about nothing but a potential problem which may never rear its head. If it doesn't rear its head, then you've wasted time worrying about it. If it does rear its head, then you're forced into action because you can't stay in that situation. So why stress about something that's never going to happen or you know something that you will solve if it does happen? So I really want my child to understand just be content I think um and to know that both me and Sarah and all of our families so my my siblings my mom Sarah's siblings and her parents will always be there to help. You know I think that if I can do that then I'll have done a good job. Um I want to be patient. It's in my nature. I'm a very patient person. Um, but I also know that I'll be tested. So, when I do snap, I snap quite quite loudly. So, I want to be calm. I want to be patient. I want to be soft and considerate. Um, and again, empathetic because the thing about kids is I I really appreciate is they get frustrated because they're obviously told what to do by their parents. They can't necessarily verbalize or especially don't have the communication ability to say, "No, that's not what I want." You know, they have to appreciate that obviously what I want overrules it for the most part because safety or whatever. Sure. But I think they I also need to appreciate that they'll be frustrated because they can't communicate effectively why they feel pissed off because I've said no. Um, and that will often come out in like tantrums or whatever. So, and they won't understand daddy's world and why when they're trying to get your attention, they don't know you're on a Zoom call pitching something, for example. They're just like, "Daddy won't play with me." You know? So, totally. That's interesting. I also want to make sure I'm around enough. My job totally allows that. Like, I have time. I can work as little or as much as I want. That's that's the beauty of my job. Obviously, I work less. I earn less. But, you know, I can make those sacrifices. I don't at the moment. That's my problem. I work constantly because I like what I do and because of the constant my it's anxiety. I'm constantly worried about if I take my foot off the gas, what happens next? I find that fascinating. But I picked up on that before we started recording because every time we talked about your screenplays or other things you're working on, you would then end the sentence with but I might lose it all. Right. And I I don't resonate like that. I found that interesting because it's not how I end my sentences. But it was it was like you would tell me something and then you would also then almost caveat it at the end with there is a chance I might not I might not get it or I might lose it all. Yeah. And I I I find it particular because I don't think in that way. So where does that come from in you? This my mom right uh 100%. Again she's wonderful. She has like a like an ethos. It's not a saying but it's an ethos which is like a day doing nothing is a day wasted. Um she can't relax. I can't relax as a consequence. Um, if I'm sitting there just chilling, even if I'm watching a film, which for me I consider as research because I write films, right? If I'm watching something, I'm like, "Oh, okay. I see what they're doing there." And it's like, I don't watch them passively. I'm constantly thinking about them. Um, but even if I'm sitting there watching a film, I'm like, "Oh, I shouldn't be doing it." 9:00 p.m., right? It's it's the evening and I'm supposed to be relaxing and I'm sitting there going, "I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't be doing this." That's my biggest What's your brain saying in that moment? It's telling me off. It's it's going, "Dude, you need to be you can't just be sitting here watching. You need to be doing you need working and making what what if this all goes wrong? How are you going to earn the money? How are you going to afford to look after your child and pay the mortgage and you know all that stuff?" Um, a lot of people will resonate with that for sure. Um, and you've addressed it in therapy. Yeah. What have you learned? I learned that I do it. [laughter] Okay. Which a lot of people don't even know, right? That self-awareness of knowing that it's a problem you have. Mhm. And and it's taken me I've been seeing my therapist for Christ six, seven years, something like that. How often? Uh it varies. If I'm going through a moment, then more often. At the moment, like once every six weeks because I'm pretty chill. Um but it's taken her most of our time together just to crack that. And she sort of said, you know, with me it's my biggest um strength and also my biggest flaw. It just depends on where it is on the dial. Like if I've got that at seven, it's great because I'm motivated and I'm enjoying my work and I'm loving it and I'm sitting there going, "God, I'm really good at this." You know, and I'm typing away or doing whatever I'm doing. If it's an eight or a nine, it's torture. Paralyzed or Yeah. often paralyzed. Often paralyzed, ironically, into doing nothing because I'm so busy stressing about getting it done. I don't [clears throat] get it done because I've got no brain space because it's too busy whizzing around in my head going, "Get it done. Get it done. get it done. Um, so there's a point where it's sort of really um, ironically kind of just it's the antithesis of what it's designed for. And I think I I think I get a lot of that from my dad because I remember being young knowing that it was easier to be busy and keep myself separate. So I used to draw. I'd be really arty. Um, and that's one Yeah. I sit out of harm's way and I So you would draw straw in the corner because you felt safe if he if you were busy and he was I wasn't if I wasn't in his in his ey line. I couldn't be chastised or it was safer. Think of my dad, he was very unpredictable. So which is terrifying for a kid, right? Because you don't know if you're going to get love or you're going to get punishment for the same action. Um so I would spend most of my time just kind of getting on with stuff. And because of that, I've developed a real independence, um, a real creativity. But if it's turned up too high, it's crippling. Whereas, if it's at a good number, um, then it's what's got me to where I am. I I 100% would not be here without that because I just wouldn't work as hard as I do. Um, but I don't need to work as hard as I do. You know, human beings have a couple of things they need to do. They need to sleep. They need to eat. They have the option of procreating. [laughter] That's kind of it, right? What else is there? The rest of it is just made up, right? [laughter] The rest of it is just made up [ __ ] that we've given ourselves to do. Society has told us that in order to be a complete person, we need to climb, right? Totally. And it's bloody stressful. It's it's it's debilitating sometimes. So, when I have that turned up too high, I end up doing nothing. But I worry myself. And Sarah's like, "Where have you gone?" Like, I just disappear. And I don't talk. I don't like I haven't been like this for a while because I'm pretty good at recognizing the signs and I know to take my foot off the gas a bit because of, you know, all the therapy I've had. Yeah, it's it's the bloody worst. What has helped you? Um, therapy. Yeah, it's absolutely that being aware of it. There's there's a point I always say this because I've actually couple of my best mates have I don't know a guy that's my age that doesn't need it by the way. Um, [laughter] so a couple of my best mates I've put them in touch with therapists or sort of said something, you know, I think you should see someone. And actually, we're really open and honest with each other. We're constantly looking out. If one of us is quiet on the group chat, we'll go, dude, are you all right? You've been a bit quiet. Um I said to him at the time I was like there's a really tough point with therapy where you start seeing someone and at first you're really resistant. She's like no I'm fine. What are you talking about? But when they point things out to you like [ __ ] I'm not fine. But you're aware of doing it but you have no tools in place of how to stop doing it or how to at least challenge it. So you're just punishing yourself for doing it. Like I remember going through that stage for a long time going I hate that I'm failing. I hate that I'm still stressing out about [snorts] being like working constantly or not working constantly or whatever it is. I hate that I'm doing it to myself, but I can't stop. And you feel a bit like a junkie, you know, in a way that you're like, you know, it's wrong. You know, you shouldn't be doing it, but you can't you can't not. Um, and actually it takes a while to learn the techniques. You know, mine is as simple as it's it's it's painful that I have to go, right, stop. Just don't do it. Take step away from your laptop. step away from your camera, do what whatever it is you're doing. Have five minutes. If you feel better after 5 minutes, go back to it. If not, then take the rest of the day off. Um, and that's what I have to do. I I need to be Sarah needs to keep me in check quite a lot because if I sometimes it sneaks up on me and I'm kind of like at stage four before I even realize it. I'm like, [ __ ] I'm in too deep. Um, so she's [clears throat] often like, dude, come back. Um, and that's really helpful. It's hard though because you don't want to be told by someone that you're not performing the way you should. You know what I mean? Especially someone that matters, right? Right. Totally. Especially when it's your already your weakness. Um but you need to be like I actually really like criticism. So it's good for me. Like you know if I send someone some work or something and they go, "Oh, okay." As long as it's constructive, you know, they go, "Okay, I see what you're doing here. Don't like that." That that's not great. I thrive on that. I'm back in there and I'm, you know, so I think having other third parties be like, you're not doing right right now. Um, and that's something that I really want to be totally aware of when it comes to my child cuz I don't want to be an absent father. I don't want to be a dad that's always going, "No, no, no, no. I'm just not my lap, so come back to me in 5 minutes." I I want to be able to, obviously, I have to work. you know, we all have a living, but I want to be able to have my kid with me and be present, you know, and not them think that they're sort of auxiliary or like an afterthought or just an addition. I want them to know that they are the center of my universe. You know, I say this every week, but I'm going to say it again. Um, it is a tremendous pleasure to have a podcast sponsor that a you've used for maybe 3 years. People ask me as well, they say, "How many huels do you drink a day?" The answer is probably about two, sometimes two and a half. Um, but a podcast sponsor that you genuinely believe can help people change their life for the better. Um, watching the team at Hule argue with each other and be so uncompromising about the ingredients that go into this bottle or the bags or the bars or the hot and savory has only strengthened my evangelism for this brand. Watching the founder Julian and the CEO James insist that only the best ingredients go in here and be so scientifically precise about what goes in this bottle and in the bars and in the bags has only made me love this more because I know they've got my back and I wish all of you could be in those boardrooms that I've been in and watch them fight for your and my health um via this product. So, professionally, we talked a little bit about your work there. One of the things that uh that you've said is you don't like being called like an influencer, like a YouTuber. Uh I think it's really reductive. Yeah. Um and I think that actually if you look at, you know, if you just weigh up the quantity of work I do, it's only about less than [clears throat] 50, I'd say. Um unfortunately, I don't get paid for the other stuff yet. [laughter] That's how it starts, you know. So yeah, you get paid for YouTube at the start, right? Absolutely. Yeah, totally. Um but I do lots of other stuff. I appreciate that I communicate that other stuff online via my social media. I just think that influencer is for one thing it's an ugly word because it implies that you are um utilizing influence over someone whereas actually I just share the stuff I like. Even if it's an ad, even if it's if it's um I'm working with a brand, I'm not going to work with a brand that I don't want to talk about. Right? So it's I'm talking about things that I'm actually enjoying or passionate about or whatever it may be. And I don't see that as exerting influence. I see that as sharing joy or even if it's just sharing good tips or whatever it may be. I see that as a as a very different thing. And I I also have a thing and I've mentioned this a few times as there was a void in um social media where myself and my contemporaries who all started around the same time did it for fun, did it for love, did it for adventure. We had no idea it was going to go anywhere. And when it started to, we were like, "Oh my god." And genuinely I look back at it and I was such nostalgia. I don't miss it, but I love that I was part of it, you know, cuz it was such a cool journey to moment in history as well. Yeah, it totally absolutely was, you know, and we sold out these venues and we were, you know, we had screaming fans. It felt like being in a small version of One Direction, you know. Um, it was wild and just so much fun. Did you miss that? No, I loved it at the time when I was in my early 20ies. every young person and I saw some of those clips of your meetups in like parks and stuff and I've never seen a line that long in my lifetime. Yeah, it was wild. But like like [laughter] a thousand meters, I don't even know how many meters that is of people four like four deep in like this massive line just screaming and crying at times. It's really hard to put it into words. I tried explaining it to Sarah when we first met because obvious Yeah, it's really hard and we if I get stopped in the street now by someone she's like what? Yeah. But she's also like, "Oh, men didn't scream or cry." Yeah, we don't get it. They used to be. Um, but my what my point was is that like everyone thinks, especially young people, especially young men, well, all young people would love to be that guy. And you're telling me you don't miss it. No, I loved it at the time. Don't get me wrong, it was great. But the novelty soon wears off because it got to the point where you couldn't I couldn't take public transport. Like I couldn't walk to the shops. um you know and it sounds like I'm really exaggerating but actually at the time it really was that just I would even now if I'm walking along the street and I see a group of teenagers I'm like oh [ __ ] here we go it's not teenagers anymore they're all in their 20ies but I'm so conditioned to being aware of teenagers now that I'm like oh my god oh my god they're going to come for me and they're going to like scream and cry and it's I don't how is this played with your anxiety though that's not that's not what sets me off so that's fine um I've always got time for it if people stop and want to have a conversation As long as I physically have time for it, I'm not rushing. I'll always stop and have a chat. You know, I've got I'm I'm really gracious in that I appreciate that without those people, I wouldn't be in the position I'm in. I don't feel like I owe them anything because at the same time, I provided the content they wanted to watch. But it's definitely like almost like a transaction, right? I wouldn't be there without them. They wouldn't A lot of them have said like when I had announced that I was pregnant, Sarah was pregnant, a lot of them sort of said, "Oh my god, I can't believe it. You you like bought me up." because a lot of these teenagers watched my content and and my contemporaries content. Um like Shay Carl as well, don't they? Right. Totally. Because because they they they loved like watching us and and we were role models for them I suppose you know and that was a really wonderful thing to be part of. And dare I say you were idyllic in a way that it often with with the sh the shaytards and shall his family I didn't have a perfect family like that. So there was it g it you felt like you were part of that you know. Yeah, I think that and also the friendships with um with the others it was very identical but it genuinely was that was our life at the time. It was just pure fun and like there was no stress. We were young so we had no like um no responsibilities, no mortgages, no no like other things to worry about other than just like going out there and having a blast and we just got to document that and share it. You don't miss it? No, I say I'm nostalgic. I'm really happy I had was part of it. But I don't miss it because I'm 33. I don't want 14-year-old girls pawning over me, you know what I mean? Or or just kind of like desperately trying. I remember one time being on the tube and this young girl just burst into tears and her dad looked at me and thought I was like, [laughter] you know, would you blame him, you know? So I was like, I'm all right. I'm on the internet, which didn't help because just being [laughter] on the internet. He's like, doing what? Um, so yeah, I don't I don't miss it. Uh, because it's actually really invasive and like I say, I don't care about the notoriety. It was really lovely to be that person for some people um and to have even then although there was big numbers it was still fairly underground and it hadn't really reached mainstream it was just online right so although it was lots of people it was of certain sort of sector of society it wasn't like older men it wasn't you know it was just teenagers basically um and it was yeah say it was a real blast but I don't miss I feel like actually I grew out of it fairly rapidly The thing about it being teenagers is that no one can obsess like teenagers. So they would be desperate for the photo, the selfie, the um they scream and cry and go ballistic and actually I'm I'm really anticlimactic. [laughter] I'm just I'm some dude. I'm really I'll often just go I'm really sorry that it's me. Yeah. Um so yeah, I'm very like I said, I'm very grateful for it. Um I love that I've got those memories and I love that I've made those friends. Um, but yeah, I don't miss it. Who's Jim now then? If that's if that's old Jim and that's your say your first chapter, what is the what is your second chapter? I feel like I've had so many chapters actually. I feel like I've I've evolved. The beauty of my job, right, is I'm allowed to do that. I'm allowed to evolve. When it's forced, it can be really ugly and I think that's how a lot of people lose their following. Um, partly it's it's entropy. You know, people grow up and they move on. They do other things, but algorithms, algorithms, all that. I think mostly it's just people force it to try to get traffic and views and actually my life has just as it's changed I've grown up with it and I've been I've accepted that change like for example I'm really I'm really hoping I turn into a silver fox. I'm I'm looking forward to aging gracefully. You know what I mean? Um and I think that that's kind of my my my role on social media. I'm not pretending to talk to young people anymore. I'm not pretending to be the cool guy and like, you know, I'm I'm I appreciate that I'm I'm getting older. My life's changed. My interests have changed. My career has changed. And I share that with people as opposed to desperately trying to still impress a young an audience that aren't right for me. I I speak to a lot of YouTubers and we used to sign a couple and there was this really interesting moment where that first wave of YouTuber because of algorithm changes. I think predominantly algorithm changes. What they were doing then just stopped working. The views went down and I swear to God I witnessed a form of depression and existential crisis from these YouTubers who suddenly were like what the [ __ ] has happened? What do I do with my life now? because their whole identity from whether it was like 16 years old to 22 was doing this one thing. They never really understood work, right? And it's funny because I've never really talked about this before, but one of the YouTubers we signed, you'll know his name, maybe 18 at the time. And we remember calling him and offering him 20 grand just to show up to a place. And he's like, "Nah." Right? I'm like, "Just show up to the He's like, "Nah, just can't be bothered." Like, and he had developed that sense of like complacency about his career and how you make money and how easy it is. And then when [ __ ] changes, I'm saying he can't make any money anymore. And and he's spiraled down because I think life taught him that money and life was super easy. The algorithm changes and now he's like [ __ ] And he has to go work at Tesco. That's something that I really can't tolerate in this industry is when people have that attitude like I'm where I am um because I'm good to work with. as much as the numbers and as much as everything else, I've stayed the test of time because I am honest and decent with my audience and I respect my audience and I don't take the piss and don't take it for granted. But also, if I am offered a job, I turn up on time. I say my pleases and thank yous. Um, I get a lot of repeat work because I'm good to work with and I pride myself on that. And I have no I have so little tolerance for ego. Like all of us, if we're on set shooting a thing, whether it's you, whether you're the runner or the director or you're me doing the bit to camera or you're the guy going to get coffee, we're all just want to do our job and enjoy what we're doing and then go home at the end of the day and say, "Oh, that was nice." You know, we don't there's no space for any of that. And I think that we it's particularly bad in this industry, right? more so than the other because when it comes to musicians or actors or whatever they are there's so many people around them right who are um looking after them and who are saying no and who are advising them and also they're not their own content Brad Pitt doesn't play Brad Pitt he plays someone else right someone like me my job is to edit myself take my own photo make my own caption reply to my own comments and it's all like Jim Jim Jim Jim Jim it's very easy to then think you're the center of the universe, but actually for every person who's commenting going Jim Jim Jim Jim gym, they're also commenting on everybody else's content because they just consume the content. I might be their favorite, I might not. It doesn't matter. I'm not um my I am not my job. And I think that's really important for a lot of influencers to work out like they believe themselves to be important. And actually, I say this quite a lot. If I were to die tomorrow, there'd be my friends and family would be gutted obviously and they'd be really really sad. And there'd be a few people of my audience who are like who um have a real connection with me, but for the most part, people would go, "Oh, that's a shame. I liked him." And they'd move on. They'd find someone else. I'm not that important to them that they can't continue without me. So funny because that's it sounds really depressive to some degree to say, "I don't matter, whatever." But I actually think it's the opposite. It's really freeing. Yeah. It's the most liberating thing ever. I remember I remember having the same sort of existential conversation with myself and it really happened when I learned about the universe and space and I got really into the cosmos and I was like wait a minute I'm [ __ ] not important at all. Totally. when you when it like there's a scene in Cosmos where it zooms out from and it just keeps going and you're like wait stop and it's like nope that's just the moon and then it goes out and it's like that's just the galaxy and then the galaxy becomes a piece of sand and you're like what the but the the freeing part is that means that all this [ __ ] doesn't matter and that's liberation like ego can be and this is the the powerful thing about psychedelics from the last person that's sat there who's the biggest psychedelics investor in the world is it dissolves your ego and says to you nothing you don't [ __ ] matter and yeah So, I just thought that was fascinating. It's really something that's really important to to learn. I I think probably one of my biggest uh learnings from my career cuz I went through it, you know, at the beginning when everyone was like obsessing over the the YouTubers, I was like, "Wow, I'm like a really big deal." Um I think it's really important to know your worth and to know your value and to um appreciate your position. I know that I am worth a certain amount of money if I work with a brand or I know that I'm worth a certain amount of time if I'm doing a thing. But I also know that I don't matter in the grand scheme of things and that this is a phase. I might I might [ __ ] this up tomorrow. Do you know what I mean? It might last for another 10 years. It might last for another 30 years and I might never want to quit. Equally, I might get bored of it and go, you know what? I feel like it's too invasive now. Whatever. It doesn't matter. It's my decision and I don't owe anybody else. But equally, they don't owe me. They don't have to watch me if they don't choose to. And I think that's really important. And a lot of people, especially when they're young and they're developing their sense of identity, as a lot of influencers are, and suddenly are put in the position where they are reaching lots and lots of people, um it's very very easy to think of yourself as the center of the galaxy and we're not. And actually what really matters, what truly matters is the people that matter to you, you know. And as much as I appreciate my audience, I don't know them, you know. I wouldn't know. I mean, statistically, there'll be a certain number of them that die every year just because of whatever, right? I've got no idea it's happening. You're not sending cards. You know what I mean? Like, I've got no idea what's happening. So, it just so happens that I'm on the other side of the camera and these people connect to me uh and I connect to them, but it doesn't go any further than that. You know, something really almost some something your perspective is fascinating because on one end you're very you're very freed, right? Right. On the other end, you you talk about your anxiety of of of worry. And I'm I'm trying to weigh those two things up. This idea that you're like, do you know what? I don't have a plan. I've heard you say that. I don't have a, you know, 10 year plan. The future is the future, whatever. But then maybe when we zoom in and we look at the micro scale, which is like right now, today, it seems to be very Yeah, you're not you're not wrong. I think on the on the the wider scale um I um it's very freeing to to know this on the more individual scale like when you when you zoom right in it's the stress of survival I suppose of like um being enough to maintain you know what that bit comes down to money I think which is unfortunate because like money is not my main motivator but I realize it's necessary. Where did you learn that? I feel like is there anything in your past where money or the lack thereof beca, you know, became um compromised your safety? No, I don't think it compromised my safety. Like I say, we didn't have any. Um and I appreciate that life is um it's like I said earlier, there's a point where you have enough and that after that point it doesn't matter anymore. You know, you can go from having a little bit of surplus so that you can enjoy holidays, etc., you know, buy yourself some luxury things, whatever you want. After that point, it's all numbers. It doesn't really make any difference. But when you go the other side of the scale and you haven't got enough, it's a major stress, you know, because what blows my mind about it is it's all fake. [laughter] Like it doesn't it's just it's literally me going, "Here, here's a piece of paper for loads of your stuff." And you go, "Okay, cool. I put value in that piece of paper." It's bollocks. But it's unfortunately the way our world works. And that stresses me out just in terms of providing. Like I couldn't go back. I mean I could. I'd have to, but I would really struggle if I had to go back to a conventional job. Just doesn't suit me. Like I was bloody miserable. My mom thought I was going to kill myself when I was working those jobs, you know? I I was very very sad. Um I I think it's a it's a need for me to create. And I I know that sounds really ridiculous and really wank, but like I I can't turn up to a job that is the same thing every day. It it it it for me feels like a prison. Um and I actually I I think the people that can do that are like special because how wonderful to know that you are um you can switch on, do your job. um you can know that you are earning your money, you're looking after your people, you know, you raise your kids, whatever, whatever it is, whatever your life is, and also provide to society and give back your taxes and all that stuff and just be, you know, a good egg and then go home and switch off again. I just think that's the most wonderful sensation. Something I've never experienced and probably never will because my mind doesn't work that way. So for me, my the anxiety comes from the fear of going back to that or not being able to provide. And the only way I know how to provide is in a very risky industry where I have to constantly churn out content. I have to constantly create whatever I'm creating in order to earn the money. Um, and that's that's a scary thought. Um, but I also appreciate that it's it's the anxiety comes in the job of it. I think the freedom comes in the um sort of the more I guess meta of it. You know, like I don't matter. it does whatever that the the Jim Chapman's not really of any relevance. Um, but for my life, it's really important that I put food on the table for for Sarah and my child. And that's funny because, you know, we we always live in now, right? It's only ever going to be now. And uh what you're saying is in the now there is urgency, there is stress. Yeah. It's so we never we're never going to live in the future. It's never going to be meta. That's not the experience we're ever going to have. Maybe if we meditate we can spend some time there, but dayto-day we live in the we live in the present moment. Um it's it's yeah it's really really interesting to me and as you say you're in an industry where a lot of people aren't making a lot of money right the creative industry so it's particularly challenging um yeah very much so and I think people are following their passion I think the thing with influencing in particular is that the passion is so easily monetized but it's also so easily taken away and it's so competitive that it often I think Some people are just passionate about the business of it. Um, now I don't pretend to have a business mind at all. I haven't got a bloody clue. Like I've got a production company that I've just started with with one of my pals and he is in charge of the business. When it comes to my my social media stuff, my management are in charge of the business. I just make the stuff I want to make, the stuff that I think will be good. Um, and I fully believe in letting people do play to their strengths. My strength is not that. So, but I often get called like an entrepreneur or something. I'm like, yeah, all right. I just I just been it's it's been luck and timing and really bloody hard work. Um and the hard work I can I I'm in control of the luck and the timing I'm not. Um and the other people around me are in charge of sort of I guess bringing looking after like the financial side of it, you know, it's the admin stuff that I don't you hate. I [laughter] hate the fiery passion. Yeah. Hate it. You said just a couple of moments ago the the proponents that have made you successful. You said like you know luck, hard work, etc., etc., do you think you could have achieved what you've achieved over the last 10 years without hard work? No, absolutely not. How do you square that with the culture we live in today that is almost viewing hard work as a bit of a toxic thing? I've almost got to the point I'll never get there because I don't care that much. But I've almost got to the point and just to say again, I will never get there, right? Because I'm not going to lie to people where I sometimes feel bad being honest that I wouldn't be here without hard work. I'm not telling you to burn out, right? But I don't know how if I hadn't have sacrificed in the way that I did, I would of course that's my experience. I've not lived another life, right? I can only tell you what I've done. Yeah. I think it's really important. It's like work hard, play hard, right? It's really important. I I I posted this on on my Instagram stories the other day. It's everybody there's there's like You're right. There is a lot of people who are sort of um uh poo pooing working hard. Don't work too hard. And there's also people who like on my Instagram it comes up all the time. Hey, I run three businesses and I do this and I'm only 12 years old and like Yeah, but that guy's trying to sell you a course. For sure. That is his business. Yes, for sure. That's what I mean. There's there's there's there's definitely something to be said and this is where I like again this is where I struggle when you work work hard like I and and work with passion like you know again Sarah's dad says says um work is a dirty four-letter word right you if you find the other saying if you find something you love doing you'll never work a day in your life so work really hard and work with passion but also stop when you need to stop take your time off enjoy your evenings or you know again I've got a job which allows me to work as much or as little as I please. I wish I did like a 4 day week. I would very much like to do that so I have a three-day weekend or I take a day off in the middle of the week. I've got the means to do so, just haven't got the brain to do so. You know, um, and I think that that's a really important distinction. You work all your bloody life and suddenly you're 60 and you've gone, "Oh my god, I haven't like actually enjoyed my experiences. Um, I haven't actually, you know, I've got to do some really bloody incredible experiences. And sometimes I'm too busy stressing about what's next in my diary or finishing a thing, meeting a deadline, or even stressing about the key messages I've got to get across when I'm on that adventure that I forget to enjoy the adventure. And it's the biggest sort of um waste of time that my job has within it. You know, like I remember being in a on a helicopter and this wasn't me actually. This was somebody else who who I recognized in. I was taken away um to New York. I was going on a helicopter around Manhattan and it was like, you know, what a cool experience. People don't get to do that very often. Um and this guy was sat next to me in the middle and he couldn't take his picture because he had to lean over me. And I said, "Oh, I'll swap seats with you." The pilot came over the um you know, the whatever it said and said, "Um, oh, don't swap seats cuz you'll unbalance the helicopter." The guy was so pissed off. He said, "No, I want to swap." I'm like, "Well, no, cuz you'll kill us now." So, it's a bit different. I offered you my seat when I didn't think we were going to die for doing it. And he sold so much because he couldn't get the photo he wanted. And I'm like, that for me really, really kind of is the epitome of not enjoying the moment. Like, just enjoy the bloody helicopter ride around Manhattan, you idiot. Um, but that's probably a byproduct of social media or something because yeah, you know, the part of the value of that was for him clearly was being able to tell the world he did it versus being in the moment. And for sure, for sure. And that and unfortunately that is the job. We have to tell the world we've done something otherwise you know it hasn't happened right and then there's no point taking you me on that really cool experience because I haven't told anyone about it you know so that there there's definitely a a dichotomy there in that you need to prove that you've done it and you need to show your enjoyment um but you need to also not let that take you out of the moment and that's a fine line. One of the things I've been thinking a lot about lately, which links to that completely, is because I sit here with people all the time and I and one of the things I keep noticing is that in order for them to actually be happy, they have to try and be a contradiction or two completely different people in separate areas of their life. A lot of the lack of success they have either in their work or relationships or whatever or in their personal lives comes from not being able to switch off from being like being super successful entrepreneur and then when they get home being loving, patient, you know, and then in the the example we've just been talking about there, I would assume happiness would come from being able to do your job and take the photo, but then have experiences where you just don't give a [ __ ] if the world is watching. That's entirely it. Like how do you And that's not easy. No, it's not easy. I um And dare I say, the thing that put you on the helicopter might have been the inability to switch off in some degree because hard work. Hard work. I haven't I haven't got to where I am by switching off whenever I choose to. You know what I mean? I've got here because I work harder than I should. Um and that's that's a massive sacrifice because I've missed out on moments. I've missed out on um you know like there are times where I should just be more present with Sarah but I'm too busy working you know I miss out on things but I get to go on the helicopter but you know more than that I get to live a really cool existence like I love my job so it's it's really difficult but my the way I kind of cross that tea dot that I suppose is that I will very often much rather pay for a holiday and have a actual holiday. [ __ ] if I want to say oh Dubai and they'll go all right when do you want to go right but I tend not to because listen if if there's often times a thing will come to me and it's it's a place I've never been or experience I've never had and I'll jump on it but I will tend not to request a free trip because honestly it my time is more valuable than the money I can potentially earn. So I would rather pay my money to go somewhere and switch off and read a book, do the crossword puzzle, hang out, you know, because I value that much more than the money. I think that that's the thing. I think some people put their value in money in my view too high. Um, and I I don't value it like that. I think my what's what's most important, what I value more is people and time. Okay, quick one, quick story from one of my podcast sponsors, Fiverr. Fiverr.com, as a lot of you will know if you've listened to this podcast before. Um, one of the challenges we've had with this podcast over the last, I'd say, couple of months since we've really cranked up the production, is we usually promote the podcast just on Mondays. So, you've probably seen on my channels, Monday morning about 9:00 a.m. I put the podcast out there. And one of the things we've wanted to do is to keep that sort of momentum and hype moving throughout the week from Monday till Sunday when the next podcast comes out. But we've had a bit of a resource capacity because Jack who produces all of this and edits all of this only has so much time and these podcasts are coming in thick and far. So we turned to Fiverr to help us extend our capacity and we hired a video editor on Fiverr who's now producing all of our video clips for this podcast. So now in a very very very cost-effective way, we've been able to promote the podcast every single day from Monday till Sunday. That is what Fiverr is all about. Extending your team, giving you capabilities you might not have had and doing it in a very cost-effective way. One of the other really interesting things you said as we were talking, maybe before we started filming, was you were talking about the things that you're good at writing about with your screenplays, and one of the things you said was love. Yeah. And I thought to myself, I wonder why he's good at writing about love. Um, I don't know actually. I I I know my my strengths when it comes to writing. And it's one of those things where to begin with, we've all got imposter syndrome, right? Constantly. I've still got it 10 years on. But I know I'm good at that. Um, I know I can send a script somewhere. They might not like it. It might not be the thing for them. And then I get told no quite a lot, but invariably they say, you know what, great script. You've done a really good job there. Um, so I am confident in my ability there. And I know my strengths are dialogue. Um cuz I write how people talk but also get the point across. Like I can't I'm the worst person to watch a film with cuz if I'm watching something I'm like people don't talk like that. [laughter] What is going you know um but also love. I I just think I've got I I don't know. I think I'm a bit of an old romantic and it comes down I I think it really for me comes down to how you feel love. You know if you can feel love and you can put pen to paper you can write love. Um, and I I I pride myself on trusting and loving like to I'm not a jealous person. I'm not um I'm never going to micromanage a relationship or anything like that. If I love someone, I trust them implicitly. They can do as they wish. They can go out with the boys, whatever. I'm never going to go, "Oh, who did you meet and what happened?" I'm never going to like check their phone, you know? I'm never going to do any of that because if I love someone, I'm all in. Um, and that for me is really important. If you get your fingers burnt, then all right, then you then that's they get one chance, you know. Um, and that's that's my life. You had a very public relationship, one that was shared on YouTube for many many years. You ended up marrying said person and um and then that relationship ended. Um, difficult I imagine to to have that experience in public, right? Next to impossible. Yeah. Like it's uh, you know, we were together for 12 years and most of that time was wonderful. You know, it was really great. Like I say, we conquered the world together. We were we were both part of that first breed of influencers, social media people, and we had a wicked time. And then we grew up together. It was as simple as growing up in slightly different directions, you know. Um, and at some point, you know, the are you going to do the further you go on like that, the wider the gap gets. I literally just did this for the first time last week on this podcast. I was like, I'm almost starting to see relationships like two parallel lines. And and if you imagine the parallel lines have just a 1% angle either way. Sure. Right. They're either going to stay parallel. They're either going to go away from each other or closer together over time. Totally. I look back at it now and I realize that actually it probably it was a small a small incline or decline, whichever way you want to put it, but it some point becomes insurmountable, becomes a chasm you can't leap anymore, right? So I look back at it and realize that perhaps it was uh it started much earlier than either of us anticipated, even either of us realized. and we just kind of kept getting more and more distant until eventually we were just roommates basically. Um, was it hard to break it off when you get to that point because you've got the world watching? Yeah, it wasn't hard as a couple cuz we were both we both knew we deserved better, right? We both knew we're like this isn't working and we took a it took a [clears throat] long time to have the conversation because I think we both tried for a while. We're like it'll come back around. It'll come back around but we're not stupid. We both knew we deserve better. So the when we actually had the conversation, it was for both of us quite freeing, emotional because of all the time we had together, but quite freeing. Of course, you've then got the audience to think of who make [snorts] assumptions, right? And oh, I've lost count the amount of times I've been called a cheater. Um, just and poor old Sarah gets called my mistress constantly. I didn't even know Sarah existed. Like, she was not a person to me until well after we broke up, you know? Like I met her on an app and like I'm really I'm really tempted at some point sometimes to get the app, right? I haven't got it anymore, but I want to redownload it and find our conversation. Go, look, we started talking on this date [laughter] um just to just to prove the point because it's not Sarah didn't sign up for this [ __ ] You know, she fell in love with me. Um and it just so happens that I come with a bit of an audience who have opinions on things. And you know, we all gossip, right? You we've all got opinions on things. I watch people go through break up breakups on TV or I watch like the drama with say Megan and Harry or whatever and I and I have my thoughts and my feelings on it. Um but of course I'm not going to DM them [laughter] about it, you know. Um and I think that is the issue that on the internet there's sort of anonym an anonymity and people can say things there's no repercussions. I lost my [ __ ] the other day on on social media because and I never address it. I'm very much of the like I said earlier I I'm inconsequential on the grand scheme of things. So I can take hate. I've got a thick skin. It doesn't it bounces straight off. I don't care. Like this is my job. It's not a personal reflection on me. So whatever. But somebody had DM'd Sarah a bunch of pictures of my old relationship, my previous life. And said, "You'll never match up to her." And then had sent another one saying, "And your child deserved to be miscarried." And I lost my [ __ ] And I'd never I've never behaved this way online. But I went straight to my Instagram stories and I told the person I said [ __ ] you to the person. Um and also I was very mad and perhaps I should have let caller heads prevail but actually the amount of um support I had off the back of it. People saying you know what bloody too right. Stand up for you stand up for Sarah. Stand up for yourself. Stand up for your child. Um and we had two years of it right cuz me and Tanya broke up just over two years ago. Me and Sarah got together I don't know like as far as the world is concerned a few months later but obviously that [clears throat] wasn't it because the world only found out me and Tanya broke up when we decided to tell them and we only decided to tell them when we did because the press found out. So actually it was much earlier than anyone realizes cuz we were trying to get our heads around it and work out how to do it with minimal um sort of like minimal backlash, minimal negative energy, right? because we didn't have any towards each other at all. Um, but when it comes to when it comes to me being called a cheater or whatever, whatever, it's fine. It bounces back off. I hold my head high. Everybody who I know and care about and respect and love knows what really happened. And that's what really matters to me. I don't care. But when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiance the names they called her and saying that my baby should be miscarried, that's where I draw the line. the person that sent that message. Mhm. You know that they they probably wanted that reaction. Yeah, I do. Um I one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given was don't play around in the mud with the pigs cuz you both get dirty but the pigs will love it. Right. So I live by a motto of never explain, never complain. I don't I own my decisions. Like I own my life. I'm an adult. I don't have to explain myself to anyone should I not wish to. Right? Simple. Um I am confident in my ability and my decisions that I'm like this is the path I'm choosing and you can like it or lump it basically. Um but I felt like making an example. I didn't out anyone. I didn't say any names. didn't, you know, share any um usernames, but I felt like making an example of that person, especially with it being so out of character for me to do so would have had overall a positive consequence for the people who were thinking it but weren't writing it or the people that were thinking of writing it. And actually, do you know what Sarah's getting much less of it now, I'm getting much less of it now. Um, so I think in a way it was almost like costbenefit analysis in a way. You know, I I I weigh these things up and I think there's always going to and I've been thinking a lot lately because of um there was a couple of my friend is the global head of social media at Manchester United and there's a lot of black players and so when the team loses what you see on the black players Instagrams there's lots of monkey emojis and um it's actually awfully my friend called me and he said what do we do about this right and he said we're going to take this dance um as a club and you know they we talked a little bit about it on like our WhatsApp group or whatever and the club stood up changed the cover photos and said like Manchester United against racism, the players's got more racism because shining a light on it. It's like it's almost like it's not a real thing. How do I explain this? It's it could be some 14-year-old kid who who's leaving these monkey emojis who is actually quite an okay person, but they just have this thing in them where they want a bit of attention. They see you or Marcus Rashford as not really a real human, right, and an idol. And so they think just leave. They're not like an inherently bad person, but when you get anonymity and you get and and we all have this, you know, envy in us that comes from somewhere, you know, the lifeboat analogy, right? And so like I I'm what I'm I don't know what I'm basically saying is like I don't think we're ever going to be able to cure that problem with the only way I've actually seen is I think you'd kill 99% of it if social networks went anonymous and you had to upload your passport because I think if if you connect real world consequences to behavior. I fully agree. It's why you don't get your dick out in public. It's well not well that's not why but it's like it's why you don't go up to someone and say those things in public because there's real world consequences. I totally agree. I think I think people should have there should be some sort of like identification process when you set up an account and totally agree with it because the amount I get, the amount Sarah gets um is it's a it's a real bloody shame as well because especially because these people are like supposed to be and I use this in inverted commas fans. They're supposed to care about my life, my existence. They're supposed to, you know, they followed me for a reason. Yeah. Um and I refuse to believe, especially because I'm I like to think I'm a force for positivity. I tend I talk real talk and I share real things. But even when I'm talking about mental health or a bigger issue, I do so from a stance of positivity, right? At least I try to. So I refuse to believe that somebody is that negative or hates me that much. But in six mill you got I know six how many followers you got? Uh on across everything I think I've got two on YouTube, two on Insta, just over two on Twitter. I don't know about Facebook, you know, let's say six, seven, eight, whatever. But then you're reaching more people. You know, the people that follow you aren't the ones that you're reached. Yeah, of course. If you took that many people and thought probabilistically, how many of them would just not be like okay people, but have the capability of sending a awful message. There's going to be [ __ ] thousands. Yeah, you also guarantee that when I do, like for example, when I announced that Sarah and I were pregnant, um I went on to Twitter and I was I was trending and like I haven't trended for years. I was like, "Oh, this is fun. I haven't tried for so [laughter] long." So, I was going through it and 99% of it was really positive, but there was a lot of it that was just like um you know, a little bit of hate and I had a really good time responding to some of it. Not like I wasn't saying anything. Like, for example, someone was like, "Jim Chapman still exists and he's not with Tanya and he's having a baby. Who knew?" Um, and I just retweeted it and responded going I know, right? [laughter] Well, turn up for the books. I am I'm still alive. Who are you? Um, so nothing like I didn't respond to real negativity, just people going, "Wow, that's like that's a funny old story. Oh, it's not Tanya." Um, and like I really enjoyed like I I I actually found that good fun because by drawing attention to it, these people were then like, "Oh my god, I love you. You're the best." because obviously I've let them know that I've seen it and that I'm not tolerating [ __ ] but also I don't care enough that I'm going to write something really negative back. I'm just like, "Yeah, I see that. I acknowledge it. I am here. I'm also a human." And it's yeah, it's a really interesting sort of phenomenon that people can write what they want without any sort of consequences. But when you give them consequences, they'll suddenly be like, "Oh, wow. You've noticed me." Should I tell a really funny funny thing that happened this week, this weekend? It's yesterday. Um, there's a story that came out in the press, something that I had done. This kid had like DM'd me. He had made me a Wikipedia page and was like, "I thought you deserve one." So, I made one and I offered him a job in 10 minutes. I said, "You, what a great show of initiative. You've shown your writing skills. Like, come work with us." It was in the papers. There's this like Facebook page where one of the articles in the papers was posted. There's 60 comments. 59 of them are like amazing, right? And then there's this one comment which is like really [ __ ] It's like [clears throat] Steve Bartlett is like an evil guy. He they said that I made a PR story out of the Manchester bombings because we raised a huge amount of we let our team had the day off and we and we raised this huge amount of money for the families of the victims and and so he wrote all this awful stuff about me and I screenshotted it and I I messaged the guy and I said, "Could you like I sent him the screenshot. I went, could you explain this?" I I've never seen someone just completely change. And I said, and one of the things I said to him was, "Would you would you be okay with me sharing this on my channels?" Guess what he said? Well, obviously not. Absolutely not. And I was never going to share my channels, but I I Why wouldn't Why can't I share in public? Well, because he's written on a public forum, right? He's written on a public forum. Why can't I share it on my channel? Why wouldn't you like 3 million people seeing that? Right. And and he was like he literally I went, "Do I have your permission to share this?" And he went, "Absolutely not." to respond to it. Absolutely not. [laughter] Facebook group, didn't expect me to see it, you know, and this is I'm trying to over the last couple of I guess months trying to understand how to deal with this social mediacentric often group think driven cuz I'm sure all the cheating stuff was one oh yeah, it was a group of people and then they're like, "Yeah, it must be." Yeah. I would say Tanya's never said anything. Um, she's never come out and called me a cheater. Um, she hasn't done the opposite. Um, like I have, if I'm being totally frank about it, like, you know, I've sort of said there was nothing. [laughter] You've [snorts] addressed it. I've addressed it. I'm trying I'm trying to I moved on first. Sure. As far as the world is concerned, you know what I mean? Like it's really hard to say this without sort of making accusations or whatever, but as far as the world knows, I moved on first. It's not necessarily I should stop there, but it's it's tricky to be accused of something when they've only got limited information to to use, right? So because people see that I moved on first, they think that perhaps I cheated. So for me saying I didn't cheat and for Sarah saying I didn't cheat with Jim, um it doesn't necessarily prove anything, right? Because of course we're going to say that because we want to deny our infidelity, right? Um, and it's tricky to keep going back to it and keep saying the same thing, especially when it's so unfounded. Um, but there's a point where you just have to let it go. Like you can't you can't change everyone's opinion about, like I said, like there's there's there's like a a load of people watching you, they all have opinions on you, good or bad. And the perks of this job is that we get paid well for it and that we get to live a bloody adventure. Like it's so cool. I never expected this in my life. I never expected to be able to do the stuff I get to do and live the life I get to live. It was never planned out for me. I never had like um the tools in place for it. I found myself here and I've grabbed on with both hands and I've worked really hard to to maintain it. So that's the perk of being in a position I'm in. Unfortunately, it comes with a few drawbacks, which is that people make opinions on you and you just have to not care so much. Not easy though. It's not easy at all. Especially when they message your fiance. It's not easy at all, especially also when it's so [sighs and gasps] untrue. Um and yeah, and and also there's no way to rectify it. There's no way there's [clears throat] no way I can rectify it or Sarah basically. Yeah. Um that's difficult. That's really difficult. It is really difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And and you must have this you must see these falsehoods in the comment sections. You must instinctively be like that's not true and that's harmful to my relationships or whatever. I need to fix that. And I still really value Tanya. We're still we're still mates. So I'm not, you know, I'm never going to I'm not going to uh make a big thing. I try to just when it comes up in conversation, I'll just say, "Yeah, it's this. We grew apart." Right? because I I respect her and I value her and I I'm I don't want to keep bringing it up all the time because also it doesn't define either of us. People break up all the time. Unfortunately, they don't always break up in public, but it doesn't define us. We both still have our careers. We both still have our lives. We both still have our people. Um and that's very important. It's just a shame that it comes up so frequently and it's so um untrue. I had a sex therapist, a relationship therapist on this podcast um two weeks ago and she said a really lovely sentence which I haven't been able to forget and she said, "Just because a relationship ends doesn't mean it wasn't successful." I still look at us as very successful. Yeah. Like I said, we ticked all our boxes. The next thing for us was what I'm now doing with Sarah. And um I I see now that Tanya would not have been the person to do that with. You know, Sarah 100% is. And there are things that I have with her that I've never experienced before. Um, and I'm very lucky. Like I said earlier, I feel like when when when Tanya and I started going separate directions, separate ways, um, it was earlier than I think either of us kind of gave credence to. Um, and so if we had have done, if you know, if I had have done the things I'm now doing with Sarah with you, I I don't think I it would have been for the best, you know, whereas now I'm I know that Sarah's my person. I've I've learned a lot. I know what I'm worth. I know what I can expect from a partner. Um, and it's it's really I've never experienced it this way. It's really lovely. It's really fruitful. It's really rewarding. It's really dynamic. and it's really reciprocal. Did you have a list of um attribute? I was talking to a couple of friends the other day um mixed gender group and one of them posed the question like what's on your list for an ideal partner? Um so you're with a partner. So I'm saying I guess my question to you is what does what did you look for? But and also I want you to answer the second question which is what does a partner need to offer Jim in order to be a good partner? Uh okay. Well, partly to offer me, I think um I I need to like I said earlier, if I if I love someone, I trust them 100%. Right? I expect the same in return. I can't I can't deal with jealousy. I can't deal with someone checking up on me. If I'm out or if I'm doing something, I I'm not going to humor it because it's not me and I don't want anyone to consider that it might be me. And if if as my partner you're thinking, "Oh, he's out somewhere. He's with someone doing something he shouldn't be," then I haven't got time for it. So, I expect that. Um, but also I I I expect to be appreciated and reciprocated. Um, you know, I know it's it's complicated. It doesn't happen all the time. And there are times when you're in a bad mood or whatever, but as I was walking here, Sarah texts me saying, "I know I haven't said it loads because um I'm just feeling really sick, you know, with the pregnancy and everything, but she went, "My my baby has hit the jackpot with a dad, you know, and like I just want you to know I really do appreciate you." Um, and I haven't said it much lately, and that's that's that's all I need. Why does that matter to you so much? Because I I want to know that I'm valued. Um, and that's that's that's the thing for me. I don't care why. Um because if I'm going to give someone my all and like I said earlier, if I'm in love with someone, they get everything. They get all my stuff. If it's stuff they care about, they get all my time. They get everything, right? Um and I need to know that there's value in me giving myself. Does that link to your childhood at all? Perhaps. Yeah, perhaps. I I just fully believe and maybe this is why I write love well. I fully believe that if I'm with someone, they've got it all right. I don't believe in I don't mean that in like a really um codependent way because that's like the worst, you know, if you're kind of encouraging each other into something. I feel like you both need to live your lives independently but make a good team and like you when you team up together thing good stuff happens basically. Um, and yeah, perhaps. But I but I I think that I for me if I'm not if I don't feel like I'm valued enough, I don't feel like my um it's not I say sacrifice, it's not a sacrifice, but if I don't feel like what I'm giving isn't appreciated or my worst nightmare is being tolerated. Like if I'm with someone and they just go, "Yeah, all right." and they just they just tolerate me. I'm out the door. Um because I'm too good for that. Like I I have value and everybody does. I'm not saying me as an as an individual. Each and every single person has their value, right? They deserve to be appreciated for that value. And if they're with someone who doesn't appreciate it, takes it for granted, um whatever, then you're not with the right person. You know, I think that you you need someone who uh respects you and appreciates you um and who sees your worth perhaps more than you do. I mean, I I don't see myself that clearly sometimes. Um and Sarah will often often say like, you know, the text she sent me saying, you know, my my my babies hit the jackpot with with the dad that they've got coming up is, you know, that means a lot to me. I haven't had a chance to reply yet, but I will after this. And that is it's a really big thing, isn't it? It's so such little effort for her to send, but it means a [ __ ] lot to me. Have you heard about love languages? Yeah. Have you ever done the the old love language test? No. Have you? Have you not? I do. You know, I tend not to not that I don't believe in that stuff. I just tend not to um I think ignorance is bliss sometimes. If I'm super aware of it, then I don't know if it's like I said earlier with the therapy, right? When you're aware of your your thing, your stuff. Yeah. And then you do it more. Ah. And until you learn the tools of how to overcome it or how to at least challenge it, it's frustrating. And I feel like if I learned that I was this way inclined, every time I did it, I go, "Shit, comment." Like apparently I'm apparently I'm like the archetypal Capricorn. You want to do your love languages now? Go on, shall we? Yeah. [laughter] I did mine and it's actually really, you know, I'm not that guy. I'm not like a I'm not I don't look at this the sun and decide what's going to happen tomorrow because of the way the planets are. I'm not that guy. But the the love language thing is based on asking you a bunch of questions about like what you value more. So ultimately comes up with an answer and it says Jim Chapman values when someone does this and yours would be words of affirmation or or recognition. Mine is slightly different. So we'll talk about mine later. But um we're going to do your love language now. This is going to drive me for the rest of my life [laughter] now. Like I said like apparently I am the most type of Capricorn and every time I do anything that's sort of Capricorny now. And I never really believed in this sort of stuff. Every time I do anything now, I'm like, "Damn it, my bloody scars told me." or something. Okay, here we go. Okay, so me and Jim have just completed the full love language survey, which took um about 10 minutes. And his results, why am I nervous? [laughter] I know everything about you and I'm looking at all of your results here. Um so it says, and this is not surprising. This is what I expected from our conversation up until that point, right? Jim's primary love language is words of affirmation. Right. Actions don't always speak louder than words. If this is your love language, unsolicited compliments mean the world to you. Hearing the words, "I love you," are important. Hearing the reasons behind that love um sends your spirits skyward. Insults can leave you shattered and are not easily forgotten. Kind, encouraging, and supportive words are truly life-giving to you. And you rank as a 33% on words of affirmation, which is high. you rank on as 3% on receiving gifts, 17% on acts of service. And then physical and physical touch and quality time, you rank the same. Okay. I would say gifts, I think it might mean more to somebody else. I think that my job comes with a lot of stuff. Yeah. So, I don't really care about it so much. Um, I'd agree with that. Um, like I said earlier, we get lots of hate and it bounces off, but if the hate comes from someone I love, Yeah. that's an issue. Yeah. If it's an insult as well, that's an insult. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a problem. if it comes from someone um that that I care about. Um yeah, you know, I'm really lucky because Sarah does all of that. She actually does most of everything. Um which is great. Um and I'm genuinely I'm very fortunate to have her. Um she is everything that I want. And I use the word want and not need because I think that's the difference between codependency and like a healthy relationship. I don't need her. I would be fine. My life would continue. but she brings a little uh a little spice, a little something extra, you know [laughter] what I mean? Um and and it's much more enjoyable to have her by my side for everything. For sure. So, what's next for you then? You're you're working on a lot. We were talking about this off air. Yeah, I am. Um I'm always working on on stuff because like I said, just I just love creating. Um so, I have just started a production company with my friend. We started in January or February last year. So, just as the world like exploded. But actually, you know what? has given us the chance to really knuckle down. Um, and we've got some really good headway so far. Um, we're having lots of big conversations with important people and people seem to like our stuff. Um, I we do scripted and unscripted. So, I head up the unscripted, sorry, I head up the scripted stuff. So, my writing so far, I've got a couple of films on the go, writing a book. Um, I'm also working on a like a like a show, like a series. Um, and we've got a bunch of unscripted stuff that I also chip in on. Um, but that's very much James, my my my business partner is very much his sort of um wheelhouse. Um, and the difference in time it will take. So, he's constantly having meetings and constantly like churning stuff out, whereas my stuff takes a lot longer. So, I often feel like I'm not pulling my weight. But then I'll send him like I just sent him a document yesterday, which is 20,000 words long, which took me two weeks to write, and it's like a an entire breakdown, beat by beat of how I see this new thing working, and he's like, "Oh, so you're doing stuff." [laughter] So, it's it's it's weird, but I think um we both we both are really invested. We're both really good at what we do. We're successful in our own rights. Um but I think there's something special about working on something that's just for passion. We don't need this to work. We just really really want it to and that's really exciting. You know, if they say, oh, you know, Jim Chapman was a success 10 years from now, what would they mean? Um what would that mean to you? I mean for me if I were saying it about myself it would it would mean that I in terms of work it would mean that I was respected in my field. Um it would mean that people who my contemporaries appreciated my input. Um but more than that if it were just in general success it would mean I got out okay. You know what I mean? I came out the other side of this and um I have I'm I'm content. For me, contentment is sort of like a a goal, you know, and I don't think it is for many people. Um, I don't want to stress about stuff unnecessarily. I don't want to constantly strive for more. Um, I don't feel like it's necessary. I want to be really happy with what I've got. And I have that very in spades with my people, my family, my friends, um, Sarah, my my baby on the way. I've got more contentment than I can throw a stick at. I don't have it in terms of my career because I'm constantly worried about where it goes. So, do you ever [sighs] I hope I do. I hope I I think what what it would take is um a project that is very successful, say with my writing, and then people come to me rather than me constantly knocking on. You know what I mean? It'd be really nice to be in a position where go, "Hey, you wrote that thing and it did really well. I want to give you opportunities now rather than me chasing it." And I have that in terms of the social media. Like I'm very lucky to be in the position I'm in which is sort of I've been doing it for for a very long time and have a good name for myself. So people often come to me. I don't have it in my the other part of my job and I'd love that. But I'm still new at it. I've only been doing it, you know, like I say, I've been writing the first screenplay for three and a half years, but that only got to a point where it was worth talking about a year ago, you know. So it's still very much in its infancy. So I I just hope that I get to a point where people um like my stuff and go, you know what, you're really good at this. let's let's work with you on this project. If it doesn't happen, it won't be through luck of trying. Um, and I won't hold it against myself. I'm not going to be I won't feel like a failure. Um, because I don't I don't really believe in that. I I I believe you can be a failure if you if you quit and you never try. You never try at all. Right. But if you don't make it and you and you've given it a good bloody shot, then you know, you've done better than most. Yeah. I said that tweet the other day and I was in the gym and I thought about it and I thought you know the the concept of worry and fear are so illogical because you know no human has ever done more than their best and even on my [ __ ] days where I'm like really unproductive and whatever bad mood or whatever that was actually still my best that day for sure by definition. So this, you know, um but it's it's fascinating and I um I looking over your story and your career, one of the the key things I saw was this temptation from you to like resist your labels and to and to not be sucked into the world telling you who you are. Yeah. I I I think it doesn't really you know what it's one of those things where you meet people and the second question they ask you is what you do for a living. The first being, hi, what's your name? Right. And there's more to all of us than what we do. Like I said earlier, my job isn't what I my job is what I do, not who I am. Right? So I don't like being Jim Chapman YouTuber, you know, um stifling. It's like a box. It is totally a box. And in the same way, it the same way that, you know, an accountant might not want to just be called an accountant, you know, there's more to him. He's got his own life and whatever. Um I just feel like it's it's pigeon holing and it's tricky in this industry because people don't like you being good at more than one thing. if you're written about um in the press or whatever, it's probably for you entrepreneur, I'd imagine, right? For me, it's YouTuber still. Um and actually, like I say, that's a small part of I upload one video a week and I've only been doing that since we found out we were pregnant because now it's exciting to talk about stuff. Other than that, I haven't uploaded for 6 months, you know what I mean? So, there's more to us. We're allowed to explore new avenues, do new things, but I think for the sake of um society understanding who which box you fit in, right? Cuz in articles they have to use a word so that the reader knows and they can't say Jim Chapman and then list your your skills. Yeah. [laughter] So they're like box. Which box? Right. And I understand it because it's it's how we even down to like you know the a simple individual level. We all stereotype. Yeah. I mean that's just that's just psychologically it makes sense because totally and it gives us sort of like categories to work from. If you're walking down the street and you see every single person as an individual, it's sensory overload. So you see someone in say a certain clothing and a suit, you're like, "Oh, okay. You're a banker." He might not be. He might like wearing a suit, but in your head that's what he's done because it's easier just to sort of carry on with your day. Compartmentalize. Imagine if we didn't. Imagine if you know lion running towards us. We thought, I wonder if this is a good lion. Do you know what [laughter] I mean? I I said this to Sarah just the other day. We're having a conversation, quite a heated conversation about something and um she's I call her worst case scenario Sarah quite a lot because she often will catastrophize, right? And I said, "You're the kind of person that sees someone running and you assume they're running from, I don't know, a crime or or a gun or something. I'm the kind of person that assumes they're running towards a bus [laughter] because I I I I see the world as neutral, right? I don't think the world has an opinion on me. Um, but I see my people as positive and I know there's lots of negativity out there, but um, I don't see the world as that kind of place in general, whereas some people I think are geared up to think the worst. It's like, um, you know, the whole fight and flight thing. Um, some people are geared I think I think I'd probably die, right? Because I'd be geared up to see a stick as a stick, whereas actually it makes much more sense to see a stick as a snake because on the one time it is a snake, you don't die. Whereas I'd go, "Oh, it's a stick and then get bitten and die." Um, so I think if it were 200,000 years ago, I would be no good. But actually in today's society, I'd do all right because I just like to see I think inherently I just see the world as a neutral or or at best positive. Um, I don't want to think that everybody running is running from an explosion. You know, it's just not the way I choose to see the world. I think that's a much healthier way to see the world. Like to think so. I think it'll take you much further. But anyway, listen, thank you so much for your time today. I think you're an incredibly inspiring guy, not least because of what you've achieved, but because of your willingness to be honest. Thank you. And I think, you know, a lot of the stuff you've shared about your childhood and being open as a man about, you know, the impact therapy has had on you, I think, is such an admirable thing. And even your call to, you know, to men to go to therapy, I think is something that I can completely get behind. Um, there's been so much stigma around it for, you know, you know, a bunch of historical reasons, which as a society we're overcoming. But I but I really applaud you for that and I'm super excited to see what you do next. You're you know you're clearly someone that's a brilliantly talented, b incredibly hardworking and um yeah and that that mixed with your your um your huge amount of self-awareness I think is going to make for some unbelievable I I hope so. Um I also think that it could go totally the opposite way. [laughter] Uh but but either way, you know, I I I will I know whatever I do, I'll do to the best of my ability, you know. So even if it doesn't go the way I intend, I'll find the next thing, you know. I'm smart enough to do that. Thank you. [music] [music]