Jeff Rubin on AI, Data Strategy, and Digital Transformation at Syracuse University

[music] Welcome to Infoiversity, the official podcast of Syracuse University School of Information Studies. I'm your host, Jeff Hensley. Today I'm joined with Jeff Rubin. He's the university's first senior vice president for digital transformation and chief digital officer. He's also somebody I've known as a co-f faculty member at the School of Information Studies for more than a decade since 2014. We'll talk about his vision for Syracuse's digital future and how AI and data fit into that strategy and the lessons he's carried from his time as founder of sidearm sidearm sports leading innovation at the university. First, can you give our listeners just a very brief picture? What was Sidearmm Sports and how did that kind of create a springboard for you to end up where you are now? >> Yeah. So, so Siren was a company that I founded back in in the year 2000. So, it's been a been a while. Uh, and it came out of a company that I started a few years before that u where it was more work for hires. And then when the the.com bubble burst in 2000 2001 time frame uh consulting was hard right work for hire was hard and so decided to get into more of a niche industry with a licensed product and at that point Syracuse athletics came to me did not know anybody there and they were in need of a website a college athletic website because the vendor they were with was was a victim of the.com era going out of business so we built it built a SAS platform form uh licensed it to Syracuse and then went after the market and uh you know it took took many years but but grew that um quite a bit in 2014 I sold the company to Lefield uh big multimedia rights company based out in in Plano Texas remained on as as president uh and executive vice president of digital for for Lefield um and you know really reached the pinnacle of the market we We had 1,700 universities we worked with that licensed the product. We had um 95 plus% of all V1 schools were on the sidearm platform. We had a team of well overund 20 folks that worked for Sidearm, most of whom were here in Syracuse. Uh and everything was great and and really thought that I'd retire doing that until this opportunity came along. >> Yeah. And you're actually an high school alumni. >> I am. Uh so so I came through the high school did my undergrad uh here graduated in 95 and uh at that time the web was just commercializing and I was fascinated with the web and and maybe even broader telecom uh and felt that you know I finally knew what I wanted to do but I I needed more information so I went straight into my master's uh degree here uh in the high school and got it in degree that's no longer here but telecommunications and network management Yeah, I have uh heard a lot of alumni tell me that one thing they got from the high school was the ability to transition with technology, not to be afraid of technology change but to move forward with it. >> So you have kind of deep background in technology and I have a a question for you that you know we talk a lot about digital transformation. >> Yeah. what does that mean for the university from your perspective and what are your first year goals? >> Yeah, you know, so so when I when I look back and think back to to those mid 90s, uh it was really about digitization. It was really at that point of of moving from an analog world into a digital world. And so taking things that might have been paper press releases that were faxed around to various media outlets and digitizing them. Uh and then kind of moved into a digitalization phase which was more around building processes uh around this data making business decisions. So it wasn't just about digitizing but actually using that data for purpose and and so these were all the right steps uh which lead us up to this this digital transformation. When I think about this, I think now it's it's we have so much data uh that we're collecting here at the university. So many silos of data. Uh and by the way, none of that was wrong. Every silo of data came with the right intentions and the right purpose. The problem is that that we never really thought of uh until it was was later of of connecting these data sources and how much more we can learn when we bring them together. And and so digital transformation to me is is really reimagining how we think about and we engage with our constituents around all aspects of the university. Uh and and so I think about from um how students do campus sports to financial aid to how they register for classes to campus safety uh to our data and AI strategy. Right? So th this university and and our chancellor, we we've invested a lot in physical transformation. This campus is absolutely gorgeous and and as I took my older son along for campus tours a few years ago and I went to a lot of campuses in the country, it makes you appreciate even that much more how beautiful Syracuse University campus is. Um so physically we are fantastic digitally. uh we have a chance to be a leader in this space and in some areas I think we are leading and in some areas we have some catch-up to do. >> Yeah. And I know we're one of the most wired campuses. >> Yes. >> And I think you had some stuff to do with that too. >> Yes. Yeah. So so I like to say uh Syracuse University is the nation's most connected campus. And and what do I mean by that? Um you look other universities could argue that they have more Wi-Fi access points. Uh we have almost 5,000 access points on campus. Our Wi-Fi is actually really really good both indoors and and outdoors, but it is Wi-Fi and and so it has limitations of of what a Wi-Fi uh can do and the number of devices that can can be connected. U but you know as as you know Jeff our our sports facility is the JMA wireless dome right previously the the carrier dome >> and JMA Wireless is a company that's just a stones throw away from campus. Uh, and we had an opportunity not just to do a naming rights agreement, but to be on really the leading edge, perhaps even the bleeding edge of connectivity and and JMA specializes in a couple things. One is connected stadiums, which is called the DS distributed antenna system. And uh, and our stadium, the JMA wireless dome, competes with and is actually more connected than most NFL stadiums uh, in terms of the number of sectors that it has. We have AT&T, T-Mobile, and Verizon all connected into that stadium. But then beyond that, JMA specializes in private wireless, which called CBRS. And it's a a spectrum, a frequency spectrum that is unlicensed, um, that allows really anybody in the United States to take advantage of the spectrum for cellular connectivity, not Wi-Fi. And and so we went all in on this. Uh and so every residence hall, academic building and outdoors on North Campus uh is part of this this private wireless network. Now what you can do on it because it's so new, right? Because a lot of vendors haven't uh created products that support CBRS yet, it it's a little limited. And so the the first thing that we did was was really by happen stance which was T-Mobile came in and said, "Hey, you've got this incredible indoor network and and by the way um you know the the major carriers, they all work on the macro network, the outdoor network, right? So they have antennas on certain buildings. Uh but indoors is really where where a cellular network struggles, especially as you get into, you know, basement and subb uh in buildings that is hard to penetrate through walls." Uh, and so they said, 'W you've built this massive network. Can we just piggyback on it? And and we, yeah, we could. There's actually a term for it called a a mochin, a multi-operator carrier network. And and so T-Mobile was the first. They they piggybacked their signal on on top of our uh antennas or the the JMA wireless antennas. And what that hap what happened overnight was anyone who was had a T-Mobile service uh which is in third place out of all the carriers in Syracuse. But if they had T-Mobile service, all of a sudden they had LTE connectivity in all the buildings. And we're like, this is really. So then AT&T came and said, uh, can we do that? And we said, sure. And so AT&T came on, uh, this past summer and and I'm an AT&T user. And so wherever I am on campus, I don't really even recognize it, but my phone is connected. Um, Verizon was the hold out. Verizon was was you know they they've spent a lot of money on their spectrum and they didn't want to piggyback on other equipment because uh you know they're servicing their customers. They don't want somebody else servicing their customers and I understand that but um let's just say we are in deep conversations with Verizon right now about them joining the mockin uh which would be absolutely tremendous and we would be the first in the country for Verizon uh to to do that and so you know that that's a really big deal aside from from that connectivity you know we're looking at a lot of our our kind of more operational equipment our back office so our cameras our HVAC sensors uh things that we can foot on the mock. It makes perfect sense to be on private wireless and not on a Wi-Fi connectivity. >> Yeah. So, I know that I have great service wherever I am on campus. So, >> fantastic. >> So, let's talk about AI. You've heard about AI, right? >> Little bit. A little bit those two letters. Yeah. Pack a punch. >> So, what's the university doing um in terms of AI? What are your strategies around that? >> Boy, Jeff, that's a loaded question. uh because because there's a lot and and I'll try to keep this within a a decent shorter answer, but um artificial intelligence only works as well as the data that feeds it. And oftentimes the data that feeds it is uh limited by connectivity. So I like to think of this this triangle of connectivity, data, and AI, right? And and we're the most connected campus. Uh we have a lot of data. uh we we might be a little behind some of our peers in in data strategy with caption c p catching up quick um and and then the question is then what is that AI layer what does it mean what do we do and there's a lot of ways to look at this question um one is from a uh kind of higher ed in general and all the headwinds that that are hitting higher education and what does that mean for AI and I'll get to that in a second uh the second way to look at it is what does it mean from from a pedagogical standpoint? Uh how do we think about the future of teaching and learning? And and so if I start there, I I I really believe that artificial intelligence has the ability to be the technology that can finally change after centuries uh the way we teach and learn, right? I mean, for for well over a century, it's professors go up and they teach and students take notes and then they're assessed usually through exams or papers or projects and so forth. And um and that's fine and we've come up with some fancy terms over the years, hybrid learning, active learning. Um but but at the end of the day, pedagogy's really flipped classroom. By and large, pedagogies remained fairly consistent uh the way we teach, the way we learn. But I teach a large class. I teach IS295. It's a large class this semester with over 200 students and I know there are students in there who are really grasping the material. Uh and and then students who are struggling with the material. Um that is all and that's probably true in any class. And by the way, a student who's struggling with material in my class might excel in your class and the students that's excelling in mine could be struggling in yours, right? It's going to be class to class. So, what what if we could rethink the way I teach? What if I could lecture for a bit? Um, but then we go into a simulation mode where everyone gets out their laptops, they're all connected, high-speed connectivity, via cellular or Wi-Fi, and we go into a simulation mode where they are now applying what they have learned in lecture to an actual scenario. Right? So, so the way I think about college a lot is we lecture or we teach students for four years most times and then they go out and they apply it in the real world and then that through those applications or as they're applying it right those scenarios become more advanced as they move up the ladder and in corporations more complicated why can't we start applying that first semester freshman year and and the answer is is because you know the the resources to do that at people at different levels um is hard but AI can do that right AI can do that where we can give a simulation and and based on that first question it can detect how sophisticated you are or aren't with the material how comfortable you are aren't with the material and then take you down kind of choose your own adventure if you will um to get you to the same outcomes which is learning this material uh and and applying it in in various scenarios so I you know I I think that is one strategy we have is is how do we adopt AI in the classroom for both faculty and students and rethink pedagogy. Now to do that we needed to bring in AI tools and and so you know the last year we spent talking with Open AI and Google and Anthropic uh and ultimately did a deal with Enthropic for a variety of reasons one of which they really were looking for partners in higher ed not just customers in higher ed um and and so this partnership allowed us to give Claude to every faculty staff and student on campus that's exciting in itself I think for a couple reasons. one shows the world that we're we're taking AI seriously that that we're investing in this. Uh we may not have all the answers but we are investing in this giving this all are the equitable access for all students uh and faculty and staff can begin to to integrate this in into the classroom. That's important. Uh so that's a pedagogy standpoint. But but then if we go back to those headwinds of higher ed for a second, right? And and the headwinds are numerous. Uh we have an enrollment cliff that that we know have been coming for a long time and we're here. Uh we have even for the the the students that are eligible to come to to college. Uh we have parents and families questioning the value of higher ed. Uh we have policy in Washington which is affecting our international uh population and students that come primarily at at the master degrees. Um, we have the cost of higher ed at at a all-time high. Um, and we have this thing called intercolgiate athletics, uh, which, you know, right now if you want to compete at the top level is an additional $20.5 million that that we have an expense for that we have no new revenue streams coming in to offset. And so, you take all these headwinds and you say, gosh, you know, how how do we get through this? And uh I think AI has the ability for us to look at new revenue streams and also to look at operational efficiencies. And I know people look at operational efficiencies and they say, "Oh, you're you're firing people." And no, I I don't think that's it at all. I think um I think every job in society will be affected by AI. Uh and I do think we can look at the number of positions we have at a university and say, do we need that many? Uh and that doesn't mean you're firing anyone. It means when when uh people leave the university, we should question, do we need to fill said position? Uh and I think there's going to be some cases we say and I'll give an example of a health desk. Do we need as many humans staffing a help desk? Health desks have high turnovers, right? Not a lot of people say, I want to work in a health desk um for a career. It's usually an entry point. And so therefore, you take a lot of energy to train people on a health desk and be trained on the information that they are helping with the resources they have. AI is really, really good at that. AI is really, really good at that. And so, u I'm going to just say, you know, eat my own dog food, right? My team, we oversee a help desk and we are actively looking at that to say, how can AI augment the staff and eventually um maybe reduce the number of staff that we need working in help desk. So when you look at scenarios like that, you begin to see how we can find ways to cut budget or cut expense. Uh and I actually think AI can help help on the opposite side of of increasing revenues when we look at how we're interacting with with donors. For example, you know, my own sense is that here at the eye school, we're training the information professionals of tomorrow and those information professionals need to be competitive and so they need to know how to use AI. That's right. So my own sense is is that instead of restricting students from using AI in all cases, we should be looking at ways that we can get them to understand how to use AI best, what its limitations are, and all the things they need to be thinking about around that. >> 100% right. I I I fully agree with what you're saying. And um uh look, I was talking to somebody earlier that said, "Would Syracuse ever mandate an AI course?" You everyone has to graduate with an AI. Now, >> it's an interesting thing to think about. >> That's right. >> We have for a long time had requirements around math and writing. >> Well, the world's different. >> The world is different, right? and and you know and maybe if we AI I don't want to say it's it's too specific but but look at technology right information technology >> there is not a person in this world who will go into a job or a career that won't be surrounded by information technology both in their career and in their life. So it really becomes a life skill and the much like language was and math was and writing was or is uh and and so the question is you know are we doing our students justice with them graduating in 25 26 27 28 and saying that a student graduate without taking the technology class without taking an understanding AI. Uh, look, I believe we should be doing it and and I believe it should be threaded through through a number of courses that we teach here, a number of discip >> Yeah, it's interesting. I had a plumber at my house the other day and you know, he did the work and they pulled out this tablet to to create an invoice and and ch and charge me. Technology is even in those kinds of jobs. It is everywhere. It is in our daily life. You're right. It's a life skill. Now, here at the high school, we have a master's degree in AI. And when I talk to the high school board folks, those folks are running companies that um that need to know about how to use tools like that. Hey, Anya, our lights just went off. I don't know if that matters. I'm gonna back up a little. Here at the high school, we have a master's degree in AI. And when I talk to our board members, one of the things they tell me is more and more companies these days know they need to use AI, but they don't know how they need to use AI. They don't have people that think strategically about the ways to implement it in our in their companies. That's right. >> And that's certainly one of the things that we're teaching our master students. We've also had an AI minor for a while here at the high school. Now the university has been thinking about a bachelor's degree in AI. Can you talk a little bit about what's envisioned for that? >> Yeah. Yeah. So absolutely. Um and and I agree with you. I think every organization around the globe, profit, nonprofit, government sector, military, uh needs people who can apply AI, needs people who can under go into an organization and say how is this organization either going to leverage their data uh through the use of AI or implement AI strategies to better enhance their services, their products, um their interactions with customers. every organization uh needs that and our students are well poised to be able to deliver on that. Uh so I I've been part of a a working group a working group that that the provos put together at this university to look at the question you asked which is a bachelor's degree in AI and there were a number of us from a lot of different schools from across campus uh that participated in this and it was a thoughtful several month uh working group and where we landed uh is and and I I will preface this by saying you know pending curriculum approvals both at a a school level, at a university senate level, and at the New York State Department of Education level is we have approved uh or we have submitted for approval two degree two AI majors uh that could be available as as early as fall of 2026. One is is what I call more of your traditional AI degree that you're seeing at a lot of universities. uh and that's more within an engineering computer science degree and it's it's your you know people who are building the models building the algorithms machine learning coding uh but that doesn't play to the core strengths of Syracuse University right we we have strengths of our professional schools our high school our school of communication our business schools um and so what does that look like and that's what this working group spent a lot of time on and so yes one will be more the traditional degree but The second is a degree that has uh that the the provost has said pending approval will live here in the high school and that is applied AI. I think we're going to call it integrative AI uh because we have to come up with fancy terms in in in higher ed but but it makes sense, right? We're integrating AI. It's it's what I just went back to is we need people who can implement or integrate AI strategy across a variety of of disciplines um globally. That is really exciting. Um that is really exciting is is I think we are the information school right and while we got our roots in library science because that libraries right we they were the information source right and and then you know the the that led into kind of the the internet age uh with with email and gopher sites and FTP sites and then that went into the worldwide web and um and obviously blossomed with with Google and and search strategies changed and and Wikipedia >> and nothing screams information like artificial intelligence, right? >> And nothing has been trained on more data than artificial intelligence >> and and so we have all this data now. It is technology. It squ sits squarely in where our strengths are within the the school of information studies. And it's something that uh I think not only will our students students benefit from, but I really believe the campus is going to benefit from as well. >> Yeah, I we are totally on the same page here. When I look back at high schools historically, they've always been on the cutting edge of technology because technology is so intertwined with information, right? We talk a lot about information technology. Well, there's a reason for that. And um yeah, we are like right at the edge of that. because we're going to have three degrees in AI. You know, I don't know, people are joking about us being called the AI school or something like [laughter] that. >> Yeah. Uh I I like it. Um and man, call call us what you want as long as you come and get educated with us. >> Yeah. So, I'm going to go back to data because we were talking a lot about that and how AI is really only as good as the data. So can you talk a little bit about data governance and balancing innovation with privacy, ethics, and security? >> Yeah, it's it's a real challenge and and maybe take security separately because cyber kind of the the cyber risk of of what we're doing in in AI and just where we are as a society is is uh I don't want to say scary. it's evolving uh right and but but take uh I'm going to take the first part which is looking at kind of the governance what I'm going to call you know responsible AI uh is a term that the the field has been using transparency privacy um and I think Syracuse or the team that I oversee which is information technology services team at Syracuse um they were they do a lot of things on campus from from our research computing our academic computing um to cyber uh and what we do there uh to our data and AI strategy to our enterprise applications right so so we oversee a gamut but we've never really had governance uh and and we don't have governance as it relates to data AI that is changing as we speak and so we actually hired uh recently someone she came from the department of commerce she oversaw governance uh and enterprise applications for Secretary Lutnik at Department of Commerce. She is now here at Syracuse, one of our new APS. Uh and we are implementing data in AI governance. So we actually we're calling communities of practice. And so we're starting with two uh this year. One is on data and AI. We're combining those. And a second on accessibility uh both which is where we fit within in this this what the high school talks about uh and cares about. Uh but this can't be its just saying this is policy, right? The the way we say it communities of practice was we are gathering faculty and staff uh from around the university including folks from general counsel including including folks um from uh from different schools and colleges to help us think about data strategy. uh we are implementing a Microsoft surface or sorry a Microsoft fabric data strategy solution uh what what that means is now the data doesn't just necessarily reside in in one product it resides in two right u because it could be pulled into fabric and there's a lot of reasons that you you'd want to do that u but who has access to that data how do we think about AI on top of that data how do we think about accuracy of the data uh how do we think of the security the data. Uh all of those are things that we have to think about and and that the these governance kind of communities of practice are going to help us think about. They will come create some recommendations which will help guide uh the university as as we go forward. So I think we've got the right steps in place. We've got to act upon them. uh security or or cyber risk is is strong is hard and and something that we think a lot about because social engineering attacks are at an all-time high. >> Yeah. and these these social engineering attacks of you know fishing or vishing voice attacks or smishing SMS attacks um they're becoming a lot more sophisticated right where where even I might look at something and say real or fake right whereas before you know someone with a good eye would just say oh look at the broken English or the the bad imagery you'd be able to pick this apart but today with AI u you know a lot of these these attackers are using services are using tools tools that are helping them create perfectly worded emails u or text messages. And and I you know where this scares me is when we get into the visioning the voice of you know when it's when it sounds like Jeff Hemsley and it looks like Jeff Hemsley and it's asking me to do something and and is it really you right and so how do we combat that is is a real real challenge. Um, you know, one of the the new ones in with a Gentic AI uh becomes scary with with uh prompt injections. You know, the the idea that, you know, an agent uh is is going to look at white text on a white background on a page and carry out something with your data that you didn't ask it to do, right? And that's real. That that is >> kind of like a SQL injection. >> It's like a SQL injection in 2025, right? uh but you've participated in it, right? Because you know with the SQL injection, someone just kind of came in and I guess somewhat similar is they came into something you built and then you know use the form field to to enter in some sort of SQL and here it's uh you know you just told your browser like hey can you go do this for me and as it's doing it it's it's been instructed to go do something uh malicious right or or give up data. Those are things that are that are really concerning to to us. you know the social engineering side um you know agentic AI but at the same time while there's also concerns there's also kind of on the offensive side AI helps us with some of these tooling right meaning the tooling is becoming more sophisticated to look at different attack uh vectors uh and and help us with with u kind of thwarting some of these attacks before they come in. So, it's, you know, it's cat cat and mouse game. Uh, just, you know, this the the rules are changing. >> Yeah. I was talking to uh somebody just a couple weeks ago on this uh infover about security and he was talking about some of the exact same things and particularly the human element of it. So, yeah, we know those are concerns. You have been involved in making us the most connected campus. Can we become more connected? Do you have a vision for that? And once we get some of these initiatives squared away, what's next? What do you see out in the future? >> Yeah. So, can we become more connected? Yes. Uh the the limitation is really it's not our imagination because we're coming up with ideas every day or or different parts of the organization are coming up with ideas every day. I'll give you an example in a second. uh we're really just limited by you know resources you know how quickly can we move and what are the priorities um which could be set from a board or from a chancellor's office um but yet every unit should also have their own priorities right that that they my my goal is that at some point that people can start carrying out some of these uh initiatives on their own without necessarily needing central resources but you know I really we go back to one of the questions you asked of you what is digital transformation to me and and how does this work? And you know, I I look around my my youngest son is actually right now on a tour of Syracuse University. He's on his official tour. And uh going on these tours, one thing that's always constant, they talk about safety and security, >> right? And so they'll point out these blue lights on campus, like if your son or daughter is feeling unsafe, uh they just have to sprint faster than their attacker to a closest blue light, hit a button, and wait 10 minutes for for public safety to arrive, right? I mean, I'm I'm being a little facicious, but the truth is blue lights are very 1980s, 1990s technology, right? And so when I think of digital transformation, uh I'm not saying you have to get a remove the blue lights, although they should be probably not on popping lines anymore and and they should be video instead of just a something that's sending a signal to somebody. Um but every student is walking around with their cell phone, right? And and they all have the campus app or we know that 90 x% of them have the campus app. So they can hit a button if they're they're feeling unsafe, right? And so again, I'm not saying get rid of the blue lights. Hit a blue light, hit the button. I I don't care what you hit. U call a number, send a text, whatever it is that you want to do. But the problem is always going to be the last mile, right? And everything. And public safety could be around the corner uh in there in a matter of seconds or they could be across campus and it could take minutes. Why don't we use drones? So whether they're tethered or untethered, but I'm thinking tethered drones. We have a few drones tethered to various parts of our our campus. Uh and when somebody activates one of these safety alerts, uh the drone comes up and get lights and eyes on a situation within seconds. And that live video is being dispatched or transmitted back to dispatch and public safety. So even that public safety officer is minutes away knows exactly what he or she is coming into and what the situation is. And hopefully just by getting lights on a situation and eyes and the the sound of a drone is going to thwart any type of of situation that was going on. That's what I mean by digital transformation. That's what I mean by connectivity and and what we can be doing. Um is we just have to think of every part of this university and rethink it in terms of technology that's available to us through the connectivity that we have. >> So you're an entrepreneur like you start inside arms sports. How are you bringing entrepreneurship to your new role? >> Yeah. Uh I so I'll answer that two ways. One, originally this role would be thought more as a CIO, you know, chief information officer or CTO, chief technology officer, and this is no knock on those professions, >> right? U but but this is going back to when I sold my company in in 2014. Um, after the first couple months, the CEO of a larger company came to me and said, "Do you want to be CEO or COO?" And I said, "I don't understand. I am CEO." He goes, "Yes, but you're doing both right now." And you can't. >> Oh, interesting. >> And so I said, "Okay, I want to be CEO." And it took me a long time to realize what he meant by that. But the point was operations and strategy. there's not enough cycles in the day to do both. >> And so in my mind, um I'm more of a strategist, right? And the operations, by the way, neither one's more important, right? They're they're equally important. >> But what I when I looked at the core strengths of what this university has, we have incredible operational folks uh within it. It's incred. They've been here 20, 30 years. They're incredible. what we were lacking was somebody who had the bandwidth to do strategy and and so that's what that you know being the entrepreneur that's what excited me about coming in here is to think about the art of the possible to think about what we can do now with that said I also have to change a little bit of culture so technology or it is often thought of a support portion of a organization so like HR is support finance is support is support there's nothing wrong with with support. But what I'm trying to to get the team to understand is we need to lead the university into the future through it. Doesn't mean we're going to stop supporting, but it means we have to partner with every corner of this university. We're not the domain experts in financial aid. The financial aid offices, we're not domain experts in advising, the adviserss are, but we are technologists. And so what we can do is help lead the conversations of what these these different units are trying to do and give them the vision, the path to enable that and partner with them to to get that done. That's what our students do, right? They go into organizations, they learn to apply. Our students are leading organizations in the future and that's what we need to do here. And that's really what I've done and think about bringing that kind of entrepreneur experience into Syracuse University. Yeah, that kind of touches on things we talked about earlier about technology is everywhere and touching every single job. >> That's right. >> And so if there's ways that we can push that forward, that's going to be great for us. >> I think that's about it. I think we covered pretty much all of these. I >> think we did a good job. Nice talking to you, Jeff. >> Jeff, thanks for visiting Infoiversity. I'm really glad that we had an opportunity to have this chat. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to great to chat with you about this. >> All right. Okay. Thank you.