J.K. Rowling & The Cost of Speaking Freely - Warren Smith

JK Rowling is back in the news. How do you feel about her recent debacle? I can understand where she's coming from. I think it was effective. I don't see any problems with it. I can understand why she would say that. I would probably feel the same way if I were in her position. Honestly. Yeah, she's become a lightning rod. So, for the people that didn't hear, uh Emma Watson went on Jay Shetty's podcast, said some stuff, and it seems, at least from the outside, like she's starting to sort of row back some of the condemnation that's been there because maybe it's not as sort of trendy as it used to be. And this is kind of the big complaint that everybody has. Do you actually stand on this principle, or are you just blowing with the [ __ ] wind? And uh I think JK in this big tweet that's had like 46 million impressions, which is uh that's enough. That's enough to get people to take notice. Uh she she literally says it. Like basically, if it wasn't for the fact that she had to say that she loves and treasures me, uh sh- JK wouldn't have piped up. But she is now beginning to detect this change maybe in the sort of cultural weather vane. Uh and um yeah, dude, be careful what you say on the internet. Yeah, I think she's just Emma Watson's being opportunistic. It's interesting though that the tide is turning in that way. So, that's how you can tell that it really is or when people start to perform differently like that. And it's all for business interests, I think. Probably. But JK Rowling, I mean, if it wasn't for JK Rowling, I wouldn't be talking to you right now, either. So, some of those things applied. I was when I was reading through that tweet. He's JK Rowling messaged to me in the wake of my firing and that really meant a lot to me. I think authenticity is something that's really important to her. But yeah, she's a she's a remarkable person to do that, to take the time to do that. So, I have a soft spot in my in my heart for her. Always will. Mhm. Why do you think she's such a lightning rod for this stuff? Like what's what's uniquely interesting about her position? Well, I think it's first and foremost that her work is the best-selling book in the world next to the Bible. It's for millennials, it's it's our Star Wars. It's more than that. So, she created this she became richer than the queen off of fiction. Um so, there's that. Uh but I mean, her position I think is rather mainstream, conventional. It's not risqué in any way. And I think that's why that's one of the reasons I think it's become such a zeitgeist. Cuz people when they listen to it, it's like this is very reasonable. It seems very logical. It's part of the reason why that video of me talking to the student did what it did because it's just so common sense, it seems like. There's nothing crazy about her position. Could you give a 30,000-ft view recap? I know it was a little while ago now, but just for the people that don't know the Warren Smith lore. Um just do do the previously on this season. Yeah, so I was teaching content creation multimedia. We were supposed to do a newscast. Student was feeling kind of nervous, so I said, "Let's do a warm-up. I'll sit here in the chair. You What do you want to talk about? Just ask me." We would do things like this, have a little podcast. He's like, "Well, how have your views on JK Rowling changed given her bigoted opinions?" So, I'm like, "Okay, well, when you say bigoted opinions, what are you basing that on?" Well, these there's all these tweets she said. I can show them to you if you if you'd like to see. Sure. Let's Let's pull them up. So, he pulls them up. We run through them. The whole exchange was like 5 minutes. And I didn't think it was that interesting or that crazy, but that's and then I uploaded it to like my little rinky-dink YouTube channel where I had the clips of me teaching and I called it like my teaching portfolio cuz we had to submit artifacts for teaching for our portfolio and I would have clips of me teaching. And someone grabbed it and pulled it over to Twitter. Where I was not active on Twitter, and that's where it went crazy. Yeah. And then what happened? Couple months went by. Everything changed very quickly. Two days after that, Piers Morgan had me on for like a 15-minute conversation. I was completely out of my depth. And I came in the next day and just acted like nothing happened. I tried and that didn't work. Denial is always a wonderful strategy, I think. Well, yeah. No, it didn't work. [Laughter] And then that after So, then that afternoon, cuz Piers Morgan and his producers, they just want the flavor of the day. Like so, they jumped right on it. They're like, "Will you do this?" And I was working with one teacher. We used to record in this space. So, after that, we set the space up and started once a week making videos. So, I told him, I was like, "They want me to come on Piers Morgan. What should I do? Like is the school going to get mad?" But he's like, "Yeah, they'll they'll get mad, but like just do it, you know. Just Cuz if I ask, they're just going to give me some long thing that I think that They'll make you ask for whatever it is. Forgiveness then permission. >> Yeah. And it It's it I knew I was in the midst of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and I was at a fork in the road. It's like, "Do you make the most of this?" And I didn't know where it would go at that time. All it was was one little video. You know, but there was the potential to try and make something. So, I did it. It went on Piers Morgan. And then the next day they kind of got pissed. And then I had to meet with all the lawyers, and they called me in with the head of the school, and who's never there. Um But she was there for that. And they said, "Well, you didn't break any rules. You didn't You have the releases. This And you didn't reveal any information. You You handled it delicately. You didn't really take a biased position. And So, congrat- They literally said, "Congratulations." You know, and [Music] then but several There were teachers there that were upset with solely on my position my position around JK Rowling. Which yeah, I think it's unfair to call her bigoted, but I didn't really say that in the video. But that's where the student arrived at. So, they took it as a position. And there were people coming up to be like, "How are you not fired?" And I was like, "I didn't They said I didn't do anything wrong with it, you know." And But there were people that were upset. And it just kind of but we kept making in this space kept making videos once a week. And It was getting a little bit of traction. And I think they just were waiting until the storm blew over to be able to pounce. And I get it from a business perspective. It can be a liability if you have a teacher like making YouTube videos that people are actually watching them to some extent, even though it's very small. Back then, it So, but it was the way they did it. Like I would understand if they'd be like, "Yeah, it's not quite our cup of tea. It's just a little bit of a liability, so we're going to part ways." But that wasn't what happened at all. It was like, "We'll sign this NDA. We'll pay you to sign this NDA." It felt like they were just trying to destroy me, dude. It was crazy. It was one of the most challenging periods of my life, for sure. Yeah. So, that's that's the lore. What have you come to reflect on with regards to that difficult time? I think a lot of people, maybe not quite so publicly, maybe not with quite so many eyeballs, but people go through periods where they get kicked in the nuts a lot. And it it seems to happen sequentially. Uh in in bunches. Um with the benefit of hindsight now, how do you think about that experience as part of the arc of your life? Well, it was the period that shaped me. It's one of the laws of narrative. Like if you're trying to write a screenplay, you have to have obstacles for the hero to overcome or whatnot. And we're all trying to become the heroes in our own story, whether we want to admit it or not. And the more adversity like so, literally the day the week before that video went viral, I was watching the David Beckham documentary. And I said, "This is a really good documentary." And I this really resonates because he was getting knocked down. He was struggling. And that made it compelling. And then his son becomes a soccer player in the documentary. I don't care about this guy at all cuz he had no adversity. He was just handed this opportunity. I was like so, for some reason that was in my mind at that time. I wouldn't change anything. I got lucky. I I was walking a knife's edge, but I made it through. It was scary. It was really difficult. But it's I I wouldn't change cuz if you make one adjustment, who knows how that would So, I wouldn't change anything, but it was it's been remarkable. It was I would describe it as like cuz I've been a genuine fan of this space. Like I've been watching your show long time. The people I've gotten to meet. Imagine watching your favorite football team, and suddenly overnight you're given this opportunity to be on the field and Tom Brady's throwing you the the football and you catch it. Now you just I'm going to run as far down this field until someone tackles me. See how far I can get. That was my mentality. And that's what I'm doing, you know. Yeah, it's a I resonate with that. Um the turning idols into rivals or friends is uh like a really weird sensation. Um it's a very facade thing and it takes a little bit of time for you to sort of come back down to earth. And uh you know, everybody can play it off as cool and I think a lot of people in this space do and after a while you habituate. You're like, oh there's Andrew Huberman or oh there's [ __ ] Joe Rogan or whatever. Like, oh there's Matthew McConaughey. Matthew McConaughey on the other week. And um you do habituate to it in some ways but there's a bit of me that doesn't want to. There's a bit of me that doesn't want to habituate to this. There's a bit of me that wants to say, yo my favorite movie in history is Interstellar and the main guy knows me personally by name and has my phone number. Yeah, that's [ __ ] sick. Like I should be fired up about that. Like I should I should every time that happens I should be really excited and enthusiastic. I shouldn't be like cooler than cool. Yeah, it's it's just all it's all [ __ ] Matt over there, you know, double M or whatever. Like, no like that's [ __ ] sick. Like let it infuse you. >> sent me that message and was like, can I do anything that like that's the most treasured message I've gotten. It's just a message but it's surreal. That was so surreal. Yeah. So and I don't I didn't know how to respond to it and I still think about it now that she's back in the news with everything we're talking about. I was like, man I hope I didn't say anything like Emma Watson did. Yeah, how did you feel? >> it was fine. Um yeah, you've got a uh a quote that says when conversations are not allowed to occur it only makes the problem worse. Yeah, we've seen that for sure and that's similar to something that's been kind of going viral that Charlie Kirk said. He's like, when conversations when we stop talking that's bad things happen. That's when violence occurs. So yeah, I think conversations are absolutely essential. There's only really two forms of communication that has impact. There's words and then there's violence. Like that I I I I can't think of what else there is. Like I guess music but you're not really communicating much through music. Yeah, there's words and action. You know, I describe it as like words are the boats floating on the surface and we really communicate most of what we really think I think through non-verbal communication and action and back to the narrative idea with actors that's what people like Matthew McConaughey really dig into is the subtext in the scene. They understand that the words are just the tools. Mhm. Anybody given enough time can memorize that script but what Matthew McConaughey does so well is everything else beyond the words. Right, it's it's kind of going off on a tangent there but that's how I I think about it. Conflict is a form of action for sure. Mhm. I I was thinking about this. I did this retreat recently and it's the most intense thing that I've ever done and I spent 12 hours a day from 9:00 a.m. until 9:00 p.m. basically working with emotions on a farm in Sonoma County and I still to be honest don't fully know what to make of it. I haven't come back down to planet Earth fully yet. Um but one of the things that I did realize is the amount of information that was conveyed during the exercises and the practices and the processes that we were going through as a as a group and in pairs and on our own so much of it was not about words. So little of it was actually about words. However, if you look at how most people communicate it is through mediums that exclusively transact in words. There's no body language over message. There's not really even that much body language over what we're doing right now. Uh there's there's the the aperture through which you're seeing this is squeezing this communication down and like you can sit with somebody and without getting into woo energy astral realm [ __ ] five-dimensional territory you can sit with someone and you can tell if that person that's sat opposite you is calm and peaceful or agitated or sad without saying a [ __ ] word. Right? Okay, but all of that type of communication has been lost and I wonder whether it has um it it feels to me like it's led everybody to encouraged everybody to really lean into hypertrophying the word talking portion of things and completely pushing to one side that well, okay, well how do I feel right now? Like what is the emotional context that's going on here? How is this other person showing up? What are the things that aren't being said? What's the pacing between the the words that they're saying? What's the tone that they're saying this in? You know, especially over a text message all of this stuff is lost. And um it it reminded me working with emotions for an entire week and basically doing like Navy SEAL boot camp for [ __ ] feeling your feelings um really drilled it home to me how low resolution almost all of our communication is now. And okay, what are the implications of that if you keep on spinning it up? Yeah. Yeah, it's nothing replace in person for sure. Yeah, I don't really know what to say about that. That's helpful though. Um political violence attitudes some new uh data that's just come out. The percentage of students who support using violence to stop a campus speech is up 10 points from 2021. So that's 34% against 24%. 47% of Gen Z agree that violence can be justified to advance a political goal. That's against 22% of boomers. 47 22. In 2025 38% of US college students said violence is acceptable to prevent hate speech on campus and 71% of students are at least accepting of shouting down speakers and 54% of physically blocking other students from attending a campus speech. I I recently did a video on a an independent journalist a guy with a camera on Emerson campus which is my college where I still teach like one class online but I went there for grad school and I've taught there. And he asked the students about that 34% percent survey and their response was, I'm surprised it's not higher. At Harvard as well. He went to Emerson and then Harvard and at Harvard he asked that specific question. He goes, well why? What do you mean? Well, Harvard's very liberal. And I just thinking think about what you're saying. Like think about the logic there. It's liberals believe that violence is an is a legitimate form of response to speech. It's that's just crazy. It's been a crazy time man after Charlie Kirk. What's your what's your postmortem culturally on this? It's I think it's getting worse because there's that period right after it where people are walking on eggshells. The people that disagree with them. People are being very careful and kind of sympathetic with those that disagree with them. Many. There's a lot of crazy people that this doesn't apply to. It's kind of this period of mourning and then that passes and the mood the news cycle picks back up. Events continue. And it and people kind of revert back to their their older ways. We're seeing what's happening at Portland. I I just think it's it's not looking good is my overall take. I think it was very illuminating though seeing those responses which has been some of a big wake up call for me and I've been trying to shine a light on that as much as I can through these videos but that hit me hard seeing that at Emerson cuz but it didn't surprise me but I'm hoping that people I know like my family that disagrees with me will see will kind of understand more about where I'm coming from cuz it's like, look this is like literally where I was I was sitting next to these kind of people for years. This kind of ex- maybe this can explain a little bit of why I am the way I am now or or whatnot cuz I know they're struggling with understanding that around me. So that's been I think a lot of it's been a wake up call for some people. But I'm generally in my response to be I'm I'm deeply concerned about it and where this could go. What does that mean? What what are you deeply concerned about and where could it go? Well, so yet just yesterday we had Nick Fuentes in Portland. I the last video I did covering him and a guy comes up to him who Antifa and he threatens to shoot him and because he was putting a camera in his face and then two snipers on top of the roof lay up this is what it looks like from the video paint with their lasers on him and Nick point he's like, dude there's a sniper pointing at you right now. And there's a dot on his chest. And it gets him to de-escalate and back off. I think it's only a matter of time until it's not just painting a target and someone pulls the trigger on either side and that's where I'm worried that something is going to happen that's going to escalate things. More so than Charlie Kirk being shot? Well, what do you mean by more so? Because what what what what is it that doesn't make that the escalation? We've had this event which has occurred. You're presumably one of the things I'd say that that event hadn't occurred and you were noticing these rumblings below the surface. Charlie Kirk being shot would be the precise sort of thing that would be the sort of thing that would be an escalation. So, we've seen this one. So, does it do you feel a little bit like um there was a bunch of kerosene on the ground and someone lit a match and flicked it, but it happened to land just like a little bit off. It didn't quite catch fire to everything else, but that might not be the case if another inflammatory sort of event occurs. Well, yeah, the kerosene was definitely there. It is interesting to note that there was not there was not a massive response from Charlie Kirk fans. We'll we'll just just say people on the right or whatnot. There was not lighting and yeah, that's been pointed out. But I I think my concern would be that that same event with the opposite side of the political spectrum. I mean, we've seen BLM, we've seen the riots, the tended There seems to be a tendency for certain ideologies tend to be more inclined to demonstrate frustration in different ways. Mhm. So, in a way it's it's like that's that's bad. They threw something really bad at the world and there a small sliver of hope perhaps comes out of the fact that we were able to handle it or this side was able of the spectrum. It didn't go bonkers. Um I I I don't have a I mean, aren't don't don't you feel in a way like this could go south? Am I Am I off for feeling like this there's potential here for this to cuz you're right, that was an escalation. I'm glad it didn't spark off into violence. Not there's no rioting. Yes, there's protests going off in Portland around other topics, but I mean, what are your thoughts on it? I think you're right to be concerned. It It does say a lot that we've kind of become desensitized. We were talking about the habituation earlier on like, oh, there's JK Rowling in my DMs. It's like, oh, there's a huge like another assassination attempt on a real public figure in the space of 12 months. And uh I don't it's strange especially given that I'm still in my my feely feels after after my week working on emotions. It's strange that we are able to continue moving forward that you can get up and go to work. That like that's just a thing that happens. And I guess, you know, humans need to [ __ ] put bread on the table and go to the bathroom and and walk the dog and stuff, but it it it doesn't exactly fill me with hope that this is although horrific and an atrocity just another news story. That, you know, the world continues spinning and yeah, we've got Charlie Kirk Remembrance Day, I think, which was passed, which which is a very nice tribute. But yeah, I one one question that I do have that I realized while you were talking there how do you square the circle of what you brought up, which is hinting at a tendency for the left, at least parts of the left in its current iteration, to be more kinetic, BLM riots, etc. etc. How do you square that circle with some of the reports that I've seen coming out from maybe domestic threats, maybe FBI statistics saying that most of the domestic terror concern comes from right of center groups as opposed to left of center groups. Have you seen this? Do you know what I'm talking about? Uh no. Is this the study that people were saying, oh, they removed it or something? No, I'm not familiar with that study. Basically, uh it seems like a lot of the uh some of the studies suggest that it is groups right of center that are the biggest threat. Um I just wonder taking my big broad perspective of the new stories that have really come across me over the last half decade I would say the same thing. You know, we saw um what was that place where everybody Charlottesville? Do you remember Charlottesville? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when was the last time that we saw something like a Charlottesville? I I can't remember. Yeah, I don't I I can't remember either. Well, January 6th. They would probably There we go. Yes, that is true. That was quite a big one. Says it all that I've managed to forget that. Um so, yeah, fair enough. Maybe maybe you're right. Maybe it's maybe it's equal on both sides. Um I don't I'm not saying it's equal, but it's I've been trying to look at this not through the lens of because it becomes a reductive game. It's it's to trying to equivocate between this. >> Yeah, your side did January 6th and this and you did this on this date and our side did it's like we're not That's not Yeah. I just think it's not helpful. >> does one BLM? How many Yeah. Yeah, because my my initial response and I this is the I think for many people it was like this is not right versus left, this is good versus evil, but then it's like, wait a minute, but that's exactly what can that's a dangerous game to play because that's what can drive people to kill someone like Charlie Kirk cuz they think they're facing genuine evil. I have friends that have kind of tossed me away because it's they what's a friendship when you're genuinely up against fascism and genuine evil in their minds. Which is in their minds what I stand for. So, you got to be very careful how you diagnose that. So, I've been reducing that down to it's correct behavior versus incorrect behavior. Really, cuz there's also plenty of Democrats or liberals that aren't celebrating Charlie Kirk's death and that would say you're ridiculous for saying these things. So, it's not just Democrat Republican. But so there the There's going to be people with incorrect behavior on the right side and the left side. But I think there's something about the ideology of or this way of thinking that has flourished from postmodernism um victim mentality. It It resonates with a certain personality that seems to me to resonate more with mass protesting, more inclination towards what we saw around the riots, summer of love BLM riots. So, I I think I do there is something within the ideas reflected largely on this side echo with certain types of action versus the ideas reflected on we'll just say the traditional conservative family, more religious values. You know, the personal responsibility, have a family, these things, conserve the true great traditions of the past. There's not as much inclination what I just said towards burn it down as opposed to we're all being oppressed by this by the West, burn it down, which is literally baked into the ideology of BLM. It's interesting, isn't it? Cuz the burn it down thing I don't know. It It feels a little bit like if you were to if you were to tell somebody from 10 years ago that it would be uh people on the right that weren't responding to this sort of stuff in a kinetic way. I think that might be a little bit surprising. You know, you you um one of the big concerns that lots of people have who are in the center is that if the left keeps on poking the bear, then the right is going to respond eventually, which it sounds like is one of the concerns you have or you just get escalating violence on all sides. But the right is really [ __ ] well armed and there's probably a lot of people in there that are ex-military and etc. etc. So, like if you were to just take the attributes of both sides, you should assume, I think that right is I [ __ ] hell. Like those guys are going to be pretty quick on the on the trigger for like defending myself, defending my beliefs, defending my tribe in that way. Uh as opposed to a group that on the surface is like more compassionate, more open um and it doesn't seem to be necessarily playing out that way. Yeah, I think it's unlikely that we'll see a civil war in the way we think of civil war where it's literally an organized like they have declared themselves independent and they're rebelling against it would be the federal government with all the military and police. I think that's unless it was some bizarre like certain states went I just can't imagine it. So, when I'm talking about escalating conflict, it's I don't necessarily mean this as a civil war. It's something something like much more invisible less more difficult to see that I don't I don't know. I don't think it's going to end, yeah. All right, so going back to the the stats about um uh campus being shouted down. Yeah. If free speech can be shouted down, does it even exist at all? Like what does it mean when it comes into contact with a human arm in arm blockade? Well, that's a good question. I I would say philosophically it still does exist because yes, rights are always I got into a pickle around this with Andrew Wilson was talking about this. Rights are bound by force and rights he's someone who claims that rights all come down at the end of the day to what can be enforced. So your your right to freedom of speech it's only if uh it still is going to be bound by force. It's only if you can protect it. But yes, I can be a people can shout me down, but that doesn't negate within the context of the legal system like it doesn't negate my >> But functionally. Yeah, in the moment functionally you're shouting me down. Mhm. Yeah. I understand uh spoken like a true academic. Um the uh the the theory, the principle, the philosophy of free speech is still there, but if it can't be actioned in the real world, is that am I being am I being stupid here or is this like a like a big deal? >> It would just have to be at such a large scale for it because okay, they shout me down on the college campus. I go make a YouTube video about it and I reach way more people. So but in that moment on the college campus yes, but I have this kind of my personal philosophy and I can't is that there's objective truth, the fabric of reality, which is reflected by this what I call the audience. Kind of when you make a YouTube video, it's this thing that it's not just a mass of people, but and you can't you can't ignore. There's no escaping them. So if they shout me down on the campus, you they can't escape the audience, which reflects the fabric of reality. So then I do make a video about it. It's almost like their actions compound and it draws more attention to it because they're taking an action against something that I think is very much real. These are not just social constructs. The idea of freedom of speech. Yes, we have these conceptualizations of them. That's how we use the words floating on the surface to articulate it, but I think these are it's the same idea of the founding fathers put forth with these truths are self-evident from God, objective truth, whatever you want to substitute there, but that's the fabric of reality. And so there's no the audi- people can make noise, but nothing can change what is. That objective truth that we're striving for and I think that that's what knowledge is is trying to map on to what is truth, which is the exact opposite of postmodernism though and that's where it gets interesting. Do you think uh government funding should hinge on whether a university actually protects dissenting voices? Protects dissenting voices? I do it's there's a big conversation to have around tax. Why taxpayers are financing places like Emerson. But there but they get so sneaky in those parameters. So for example, Emerson just changed what used to be the social justice center because of this very issue what you're describing. They they just changed the name to the office of equal opportunity because equality is equal opportunity. Equity is equal outcome. So they they learned and that's what colleges are doing, but then you see the video content or you talk to students and they're I'm surprised it's only 34% celebrating Charlie Kirk's murder. It's So but yeah, my answer to you would be yes. I don't think I'm very skeptical about the government providing tax money to these universities. Mhm. It doesn't seem to me like children and young people, students are being taught to resolve problems constructively. This feels like a skill issue. Yeah, I mean I I I I think it's because so few of the professors the people that would be having the conversations uh have differing opinions. It's just overwhelming. It's impossible to even articulate unless you see it for yourself. Which what I'm trying to do with the videos. It's the closest I can do is when I see footage like that, that's when I get most excited. Like my favorite video I ever made was Joe Rogan talking to a post-modern professor on his show. Because to me that was like finally I can shine a light where this is a real professor who's saying these things with his own words cuz I could talk till I'm blue in the face about postmodernism. Jordan Peterson has done it and people just don't believe you or they just roll their eyes and they're it's too philosophical like they don't but then you hear him get up there and say no, there's no such thing as knowledge, objective truth. Everything is a social construct. He's effectively he's making it crystal clear that there's no such thing as the fabric of reality to strive for it. Because knowledge is evolving, therefore his logic is we don't really know anything. And we've you could see where that that goes. I guess my point is like it's just you have to hear it straight from the horse's mouth and that was one example where I was able to do that. I was like he's literally saying it to you. So if this doesn't show you, I don't know what will. Yeah, it it feels a little bit to me like uh inverse exposure therapy. So the fact that so few alternate voices are um going on the campus, that whatever some absurd percentage of students self-censor for fear of being judged and shamed by their fellow classmates, that you have uh a changing shifting demographic when it comes to who is teaching at universities as well. Um you even have a shifting demographic of who's attending universities, right? A significant increase in in women going versus men. And it's very difficult to be a university professor that didn't go to university. So like that is your stock of future professors at the ones that are going. And uh all of these things together is a great great study by Corey Clark. You should have a look at it. It's stinks of you. It stinks of your channel. Brilliant. And um uh she uh sent a survey to every psychology professor in the US. Didn't get a response from all of them. Got a big [ __ ] response talking about what topics should not be allowed and there's a huge sex difference. There's a massive sex difference between men and women and there's a huge difference. It was really really interesting. My point is when you take this um milieu all together, what you end up with is students basically never hearing top-down, uh uh like side-to-side, or um random inclusions of other people from speakers and and and guests and stuff like that. Uh there is this I've actually and inside out, right? With their own self-censorship. Uh there is just this a increasing fragility or an increasing sort of uni- uni-dimensionality uni-dimensionality to the type of topics uh that they're being exposed to. Does that all make sense? Yeah, no. It's It's absolutely true. It's just worse than it's it's you're absolutely right. I'm right, but it's worse than I'm right. Words There's no words. This is the limitation of words. Like there's no words to capture what is actually happening. How so? So All right, so so when I'm making these YouTube videos, it's like or just this whole thing. We've been talking about the desensitization of this medium and how you oh, it's so-and-so and it all becomes it all starts to feel it's just online. It's just about making content for sponsors so I could do the food on the table and you lose sight of it. Then something happens. Bang, Charlie Kirk gets killed and it would it's and other things have happened. I returned home in the wake last year, last Christmas. I returned home. It's like re-entering the real world sitting there with my childhood friends who literally I so I'd just been fired before saying they said similar to how people responded to the Charlie Kirk thing in many cases, I'm sorry you lost your job, Warren. But you did say this about J.K. Rowling. So what do you expect? And walking through literally step-by-step logically like the flaws that she's pointing out are completely fair to have those concerns. It's a reminder that this is real. There's something at stake here and and when Charlie Kirk died, it suddenly it was a wake-up call. It's not just it was It's not just about sponsors, money, and stuff. It I forgot where we but I forgot where we were going with that. It's more than just words. It's it's it's hard to capture the reality of how crazy this stuff really is. Yeah, what what do you think's going on with young people's support of political violence? Is it because of conviction? Uh desensitization? What do you think's going on? Because going back to that fear I had about good and evil and that being very careful about that because they genuinely believe that they're facing true evil. So, to the point where those child like I'm talking my best friends. Like grew up together since yay tall. In their minds even if they don't hate me I'm giving voice to they can excuse me in their minds, but my videos perhaps or talking to Joe Rogan or whoever that is is part is contributing to something even if I'm not evil, I'm playing a role in something that is so genuinely truly evil to them. So, we need to and then all bets are off, and that's when you see people lose friends, people do things they would never otherwise do. And the only solution to this is rational conversations. And that's That's why this thing has made such a wake because that's exactly what Charlie was doing. He was killed doing just that. He was killed doing the solution. And it didn't work. And it He was He was killed He was killed for doing the thing that is the only thing you could do to prevent this. So, that's even a double whammy. It makes it even scarier. You know? So, but the problem is is that when I try and have those going back to those childhood friends, when I try and have those conversations step-by-step, if I can sit down with them I can genuinely I guarantee you by the end of it, they won't think the way they thought coming into it. They still are going to disagree with Trump. It's not what it's about. It's about something deeper than that. And I can get there if you get It might take me an hour. I've done it. I've done it with over and over with people in my personal life. The problem is is that they'll shut down the conversation. Why? Because it's it's almost because the logic is not there. Because it's almost as though they because they can't get So, the JK Rowling example. I get fired. I'm sitting on the porch at Christmas at my mom's house. Yeah, guys, I get All right. So, you Yes, I did say that about JK. Well, I said that with the student. But you do understand, right? Like So, tomorrow just hear me out. Like tomorrow, is there anything stopping me from deciding I'm a woman? Well, no, Warren. You You logically you could. It's true. Okay. So, I still have male genitalia. If I can then tomorrow walk into a women's changing room can you understand why a a mother, a woman would be uncomfortable by that? They have a problem with that. Okay. But what if she's Yeah, but she's an adult. She should be able to get over it. Okay. But what if she has a 6-year-old? Can you understand why she would be uncomfortable with that? And I There's no way to How do you contend with with that argument? Like if you can see a flaw in that, like challenge me on it. That would be really If you can provide any pushback on anything please do because that's where this these things get interesting. It would make it way more interesting, too. Cuz conflict drives stories. It's the central law of narrative. But that's my answer to you as why. It's just the law. It comes down to the logic. [Music] It seems like you are getting It it seems like this is sort of really hitting at at something deep for you. Like this mission and the challenges that you're facing by sort of trying to come head-to-head with this, whether it's virtually or in your personal life. Yeah, it's been infuriating. It's it's And that would be my response to them a family member when they say that, it's like, "Look, if everyone when I come home or if And this is before viral videos or doing YouTube or anything. This is years ago. I'd say, "Look, if I'm everyone of you hates me because of this, right? If all people your friends, they all hate me, you know, but if I'm still willing to have these conversations and want to rationally step-by-step walk you through it maybe that would indicate that if I'm still doing this and I'm still standing firm on it, maybe that would be an indicator that I've thought this through and I have a reason why. And I think that goes back to your previous question. That's one of the reasons I think that they shut down the conversations because there's something there's that kind of goes back to the logic of it. It's it's you I have thought this through. Like I have a reason. I've I've And that's why that video at Emerson was so important to me because that was my opportunity kind of to shine a window on what I've been go like what I've the people I have sat with for years. And it's There's no words for it, but I can With a camera I can show it. I don't need words. Yeah, it's it's weird. I guess we're not too far off from Thanksgiving now. And every year there's the same sort of memes come up online. How to speak to your bigoted uncle this year over the or the sort of based reverse version of that, which is three sentences to say to totally torpedo this year's Thanksgiving dinner. And people are going to be thinking about this, man. I would love You know, what would be great and ridiculously difficult to do is a a survey would be some sort of analysis of the average volume like sentiment analysis and volume and speaking cadence and like antagonism around the Thanksgiving table. Like it's just a one once per year little test like a a core sample, right? Out of the ground. I will take this one and take this one and take this one. And I have to assume that that curve is just getting really [ __ ] steep. And like really really getting up there now. And I think another question that I've got We we always hear We heard this around Trump you know, people made um a bunch of jokes about thoughts and prayers to quote literally Hitler. Um that it's very difficult to with one sentence say that this guy is fascist beginning of the end reincarnation of the Third Reich. And with the other show compassion. And that those two things seem a little bit tough because I guess the subtext, the implication is the language that you used in the first case is the reason for the event which caused the need for the apology. Right? That when you use inflammatory language, when you use sort of violent media, um my question is basically how much of that is shaping young people's tolerance for real world violence? Like is it just reflecting what's happening bottom up or is it actually pushing it forward sort of normalizing this kind of language, demonizing one side and the other? And it's not as if this is only going in one direction. Like the demonization goes in both. Yeah, but there's there's legitimate That's the problem is is there's legitimately wrong behavior, objectively wrong. Like I think it is safe to say that it's objectively wrong to celebrate Charlie Kirk's death. And the response Some of the responses we've seen are crossing I think an objective measurable line. Um It again it's going to It's because we see the world through stories. We make sense because we're narrative creatures. And we use conflict drives story. And it's this thing that's driving people to genuinely believe the other side is is evil while also holding the the thought in mind that there is evil there and we can see examples of where that is. That's what I started That's why I started the response with that because it does exist. You just got to be careful about it. The solution I The only solution is to teach people that are claiming these things about fascism, they need People need to explain more what fascism actually is. And it's such a That's why I keep saying I did get to talk to Joe Rogan and I was trying to delve into that a little bit with him because that is the singular to me a window in time that has so much insight. And look today, it's people are throwing around fascism which echoes back to them, but they don't understand what fascism is. And yeah, it's slightly It is difficult to define in a single sentence. But I think it's the authoritarian pursuit of national purity through force, something around those lines at the very core of it. And then components can be switched out. But it's a dangerous It's a dangerous game. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the I think you're asking like how to where that's coming from? Which direction, basically? Is it simply Is the violent How impactful It's the age-old question of like do violent video games make children violent? What I'm asking is is violent media as in the sort of language, inflammatory, uh especially sort of escalating up and and using um really horrific examples of people from history or from movies or from whatever to describe someone that Jordan Peterson was Red Skull, right? From the Marvel Comics. I'm sure that there's been a Thanos example used somewhere and I'm sure that the right as well is slinging its fair share of murdered whatever this particular person is that's coming in to sterilize the youth or whatever it might be. >> in on that. Like example be on the right cuz I know it it's absolutely happening on the on the left like Red Skull, the accusations of fascism. It's everywhere. But what would be Let's try and identify it on the other side. So the problem for me I think is that the response to these sorts of stories is always larger than the initial story itself. And that means that given most of what I follow online is center center right. What I see is crazy left of center stories that are then being responded to by somebody from the Daily Wire or whatever it whatever it might be. It does seem to I'm trying to equivocate basically to at least give the opportunity that I don't know everything. I'm I don't see all of the internet. I'm like, look given that maybe there is some stuff out there. I have to assume that there is some stuff. But you might be right. I may have a perfectly representative my sample maybe like absolutely perfect when it comes to understanding what I see on the internet. If I was to go by my own algorithm which is obviously hugely [ __ ] biased. If I was to go by my own algorithm, I would say yes, there does seem to be a lot more of that inflammatory language going from left to right. The purity spiral stuff, the holier than thou, the very very sort of accusatory vindictive over exaggerated language does seem to go in one direction. But I just need to leave myself open to the fact that >> I see what you mean. I don't know. >> the right too. You're right. There's people the accusations around Jews, things like that. It's there's there's I mean racism, there's you see it on X there's lines being that personally I don't think that there's certain lines I don't think should be crossed or being crossed on X for sure. You're right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean you had you had this idea about when when you know that sort of behavior has gone too far. Like is there such a thing the line between correct and incorrect behavior? There you go. That's the that's the question at the heart of it because So going back to post-modern thinking which most people echoing the sentiment don't realize they're talking about post-modernism. So you go to a therapist. A therapist to them there's no such thing as correct behavior. They're not going to tell you what to do. They're not they're just going to affirm because it's just a matter of perspective. There's no such thing as the right way to do something. There is no ideal behavior in any given scenario in that worldview. But I disagree. That's why I talk about the fabric of reality which we strive for. Even if you can't achieve that ideal, you have to have the target to aim for which means there is an ideal whether we can achieve it or not. There is a best way to behave in any given scenario. And the you can judge that if you had parallel universes that you could measure each different type of action and then you could actually see the outcomes, you could step compare those outcomes and one logically will have to be better than all other potential outcomes. One has to be but you have to have a way to quantify it. Right like so But so to answer yeah, there's there is that's we've lost sight of that. It's become this post-modern idea of everything is just a matter of perspective and is equally valid. There's no narrative, no shared meta narrative, there's no ideal shared story that is better than any other story. Everything is equal. It's just a matter of perspective. And I think it's really a dangerous that's really a dangerous idea. So I'm glad you mentioned that. How do you How do you operationalize this? How do you What does it mean for a society to say that behavior is bad or that it's gone too far or that that this is something This is this is a line that's being crossed. You mentioned that before. I feel like a line has been crossed. That was a line has been crossed within speech, right? Talk to me about that. I need you to dig into that. That's why we have the legal framework because that's the closest we can come to actually writing in black and white what these lines are. So freedom of speech for example, how do we determine when speech crosses that objective line? Well, hate speech no cuz who can define hate speech? We can't. There's no way to determine where that line exists. So the best we can do the least bad way of approaching this. They're all going to be flawed. The least bad one is to say, okay we have these laws that draw these lines, calls to violence, defamation, whatever they are. But those are laws. And beyond that you have legal freedom of speech. Now yes, an employer can create their own framework cuz they have the freedom to pay who they want to pay and how they want to do it. But we're talking about that larger framework and that's really what laws act as. Which is why the JK Rowling debate comes back to where the rubber meets the road which is the legal framework. Tomorrow if I can decide that I'm a woman, the real question is am I a woman under the law? Not do you need to use my pronoun? That that that is the question. Everything else is beneath that question. It's am I treated as a woman under the law because today if I were to walk into that space, that changing room, they have the legal right to call the police. Now tomorrow if I can decide I'm a woman and I walk in that same space, do they have the legal right to call the police? It has larger ramifications and that's what JK Rowling has been trying to articulate to everyone. Just that. It all comes back to that. Which all comes back to the legal framework which is our attempt to create these objective lines. I mean It is uh I mean I was going to say it's a shame that we have to rely on the legal framework to get people to behave in a prosocial manner. But maybe that's just like human nature is >> think we do. It's just we have to have some we have to have it written. We have to have the constraints. Yeah, sorry. I don't mean I I don't mean that it's a shame that that is a thing that exists. It obviously needs to exist. My point is it's a shame that we're having to think about that as what we now rely on as opposed to you know, common decency, shared humanity, etc. etc. Like massive scaling problem when you don't see people as your neighbor, you don't see them as human. I realized this. There was there was this insight that I'd had I think watching the rise of of Peterson was the first one that I really saw this with. There seems to be a level of fame or exposure or notoriety threshold and when people cross that some big portion of the world doesn't see them as a human anymore. They see them as a conglomeration of ideas. They're a representation of an like an ideology or or story or narrative or something. >> Yes, right there. The story cuz we see because we're narrative creatures and we see the world through stories. We cannot separate the character from the story. So when you see Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, it's all the past context you have psychologically is impacting how you see them. The only way to really perceive that the massive amount of that effect would be to have parallel universes where you could have a politician who's Trump do the exact same action, same proposed policy but doesn't have the back story. The story of Trump and you could see how the audience responds and you could have some quantifiable outcome. That's the only way we could ever begin to really observe just how powerful this effect is. But the thing that you notice at least that that that I saw when this threshold is has been breached. Um People seem to be prepared to do and say things that they wouldn't of a person who doesn't have that story armor, whatever it is that they think that they've got with it hasn't gone through that altitude. And it was disheartening. It was disheartening to think, you know these people are still people on the other side of this. Like if you say this thing or send this thing that I've spent the last seven and a half years. You're you'll be episode like 1005. At no point on this journey to building this platform has someone sat me down and taught me about like the super secret squirrel technique that is only taught to people that are moderately [ __ ] well known on the internet of how to not feel really disturbed when nasty [ __ ] happens. Like there's no and and the you know, the champagne problems, you know, what an issue do you not know that people are in poverty? You just need to make Hey hey I I do not disagree. But the social issues are still a social issues. Like if you felt ostracized or condemned or like you were being accused of all of these things, it would be tough. And yeah, it it was just it was really interesting to me that there is a size that you get to where you are no longer seen as a human and it changes the way that people behave and I fear that Charlie Kirk Charlie Kirk had breached that as well. Yeah, I don't I wouldn't know about that. I'm not near that size you have. Charlie Kirk did. But I think you're right. I think you're I'd have heard you talk about this before. I understand, it's a real And I know people dismiss it as champagne problems, but it comes with baggage. Just my little bit of whatever this is that I'm doing Yeah, it's It has There's a cost for sure. It's not just the cost, I don't think. It's the lack of It's the lack of humanity from people seeing Seeing those individuals. That like Joe Rogan like you can do and say whatever you want about that guy. Or you know like pick somebody on the other side like holy [ __ ] some of this stuff True or not, funny or not that was said about Joe Biden last year was [ __ ] horrific. Like think about if you are that guy. You're this dude who Has Been thrust into a position That you were physiologically really really going to struggle with. Probably pumped with all manner of whatever they needed to keep that racehorse running for the space of 4 years. And you're just like It may It made me feel really sad. Made me feel really really sad for him for the human that is Joe Biden. Like holy [ __ ] It's so awful What he had to go through. And um But people are just like well you know like [ __ ] it you rise to the top and you're you're you're you're the the Arrows are going to be slung your way or whatever. I don't know. Maybe I'm too much of a [ __ ] and you're just saying >> that you're being a [ __ ] It's because you Because your ego is in check and you have So your ego is not flawed Because you've achieved success. You know you're like a handsome guy, tall, you worked at you work out, whatever. All that stuff. It's like you don't have anything to prove. So you are now in this place where you have the I get what you mean. I don't know the words for it. I don't know how to describe it, but it comes down to it's the attachment to ego that I've I can't encounter that often, man. It's ego's really the emotion is the death of reason. And emotion comes from ego. What's the relationship with ego and dehumanizing people? I think we want to dehumanize people from a place of ego often. It's like well it depends on the example. Maybe we If you dislike someone a co-worker for example, maybe this is a bad example because of being a co-worker, but they have something you don't have or someone makes a video criticizing Chris Williamson's take on this political thing and do you respond with a counter video that's Kind of going off the wall and when you people a person that would respond is probably doing so from a place of ego. I think it often comes from that thing that we call ego. What ego means we could Yeah. At least for me It it Perhaps part of it is the champagne problems thing. This person Has enough going on That the there's like a ballast in the system, right? They've got like enough enough buffer stability that I can use them as this sort of um Like rhetorical punching bag in a way. Uh When Jordan was ill a few years ago or when who was the guy who got attacked by the dude in the with with the hammer in the house like last year? Yeah, I forget his Not Elizabeth Warren's husband. Somebody else's husband. And on that you go Jesus Christ an old dude Getting attacked by a guy in his house. And look maybe this is just what maybe this is the most basic [ __ ] point in history which is people become famous and then people take the piss out of them and are mean. Like perhaps it's that but it feels like it's something a little bit deeper Than that to me. This sort of loss of humanity. And I wonder whether it's tribalism that this person begins to represent something that you either agree with or disagree with. So they're kind of like a flag bearer in some sort of a way or a totem or a mascot. And like you're behind this thing or you're against this thing. And if it's a big thing like you kind of throw arrows at it or and if you're with it then you kind of defend it vehemently. And that you know just naturally sort of spirals up the inflammatory language. Maybe that plays a role. I feel I feel like it does. Yeah, I mean it's the example of Jordan Peterson if people were people Yeah, the way they were attacking him the way they're going to continue often times I do think it comes from that part that's missing from them. It's almost as though they're jealous of in some way. They would never say this probably. Whether it's his ability to think, what he has achieved or being at peace with straddling two worlds and not You know falling into one tribe. What you're talking about this team mentality I think is so silly. Uh Because of Where it's people so many people are It's like I'm on this team therefore I'm going to check off all the boxes and that's how they form their thinking. It's just I don't understand that as opposed to going point by point following the logic. Well yeah, I mean if you if I know one of your opinions and from it I can accurately predict everything else that you believe You're probably not a serious thinker. Right. Right you've you've taken a onesie and put it on and called it an outfit. most people's supply. And in in that case you have to retrofit All issues. All questions are given the same answer. Everything is climate change or everything is capitalism or everything is progressivism or everything is LGBT or everything is fascism. Yeah. Um And that mono thinking is A great shortcut. The human brain loves those, right? Uh But It's an indication like if you've just Here's a good way to think about it. When was the last time that a content creator that you like or a person that you read some news contributor, when was the last time that they surprised you with their take? I would say for instance that Bill Maher Is somebody who regularly surprises me With his takes. And that makes me Sam Harris [ __ ] almost always surprises me with his takes. If I was to like roll a dice and try and predict what it is that's going to come next out of Bill Maher or Sam Harris, there's some I have some predictive power but not that much to be honest. And I'm like wow that [ __ ] I didn't think he was going to say that. Um and that's good. I think that's a good thing. But what it feels like to people on your side it looks it it it feels like you're an unreliable ally. And what it looks like to people on the other side is a lack of conviction. It's like see see he's not with them on that thing. I mean he was with them on whatever but January 6th he's not with them there and he was with them on COVID masking but he's not with them on immigration. And you go okay that looks So much Like An opportunity for both sides. Like people on in your own camp and people in the other camp. Neither of them are going to agree with you for you dissenting. The other group is going to remember the fact that you didn't agree with them previously. And your own group is going to be like well Warren [ __ ] hell. I thought you were with us on gun control. You were with us on immigration or you with us on economic policy or on health care. And I'm obsessed with this idea. [ __ ] obsessed with this idea of mono thinking. It's so cool. >> That's especially when it comes to High we'll call them high stakes topics like Christianity or whatnot where it comes down to faith and belief. And that's essentially what happened with Jordan Peterson Jubilee that the criticism he got from that which I think is silly. But he had a really interesting response to that where it was essentially an argument of utility. He's saying because I can reach more people there's a reason That I don't want to Beyond just that it's private and it's extremely complicated. He's a guy who's always straddling that reality that words are just the tools and everything of substance is beneath the surface. That's what gives him that ability because he's doing things with those tools no one else does. He's like actually trying to reach more people with an incredibly complicated topic. The problem is with Christianity it's literally And I and I struggle with that my I consider myself a Christian but I struggle with the idea that all you need to do is say the right words and that makes you a Christian. Or and and if you don't If you don't Say the right words and claim So many people like genuinely seem to believe that it's You have to literally just proclaim certain things in order to be saved. That's really important to them. The words that you say the right words. That's I'm not disagreeing with any of the beliefs or anything but I I I do I tend to There's things that Jordan Peterson says about this topic that I Resonate with on a gut level. [Music] Yeah. It's a strange one, man. It is a [ __ ] fascinating time to navigate The world of rhetoric and communication. And um What do you think the next I mean you you don't have a crystal ball. But Uh What do you think the next few years looks like in terms of the way that this communication goes forward? Have you got any early inclinations? Well the the ramifications of like This technology this medium is changing everything. We're seeing that it's harder it's harder to hide anything. And in that sense, I think it's a good thing. Because I do have this sense of the fabric of reality exists in that the audience doesn't lie. That audience meaning that's reflecting what is and we don't want to pull the wool over their eyes. The more transparency the better. It's There's all There's that pendulum that seems to swing from the left to the right. I I don't know what will happen. I don't I mean as far as politics I would never consider myself a political expert. It's difficult. It's It's a It's a I think the universities are in real trouble. They're in real trouble. That's another thing Peterson's right about. I don't know how they're going to come back from it. So there's going to be big change around that. I think that this agent Hollywood is transforming. They're trying to catch up with these technologies. They're realizing that the ability to connect to that audience, that thing that's reflecting the fabric of reality has shift shifted. I don't You probably have an agent. If you don't, I'm sure there's agents looking at you because they're launching new departments recognizing that this is the future. And what the real ramifications of that are, I do not know. What the real ramifications are of this conflict between good not politics but right versus wrong behavior. I Well, going back to the beginning of the conversation which There's something shifting, which is why Emma Watson came out and made those comments. Something Something's shifting for the better. Warren Smith, ladies and gentlemen. Dudes, I I appreciate you very much and I applaud you for taking something that could have been horrific and turning it into a a springboard to to make something great. So that's that's real alchemy there. Where should people go if they want to check out all of your stuff? >> Oh, just YouTube Warren Smith Secret Scholars Society. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, man. I appreciate you. Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. Go on.