It's More Than Just A Game: Africa at the Men’s World Cup and the Women’s AFCON

[music] >> Welcome to Into Africa, a podcast where we explore Africa's geopolitical landscape, its evolving global role, and [music] the challenges and opportunities shaping the continent's future. I'm your host, Oge Onubogu, senior [music] fellow and director of the Africa Program at the Center for Strategic and International [music] Studies. >> Hello, this is Catherine Zuke, associate fellow with the CSIS Africa Program and host of the Youth Roundtable on Into Africa. >> This was a landmark World Cup for African football. And in this podcast, when we say football, we mean it in the way that the rest of the world understands it. If by any reason American football comes up, we will call it by its government name, American football. Nine out of 10 African [music] teams cleared the group stage, which was a continental record. And yet, only two, Morocco and Egypt, reached the round of 16. And so, we're here to unpack the lessons learned on African football from the men's 2026 >> [music] >> World Cup. And I couldn't have a better group of experts joining me to discuss this. First, we have Janine Anthony. She is an award-winning broadcaster. She founded [music] Ladies March, Africa's first all-women soccer network, and was the BBC World Service's first African female commentator to run lead commentaries at a major men's football [music] tournament, which was the Africa Cup of Nations. Our second guest today is [music] Chibogu Nnadiegbulam. She is a journalist with the International Sports Press Association and also an editor with Ladies March. Janine, Chibogu, welcome to the podcast. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Excited to to get the show on the road, really. >> Yes. Okay, so you know, to kick off, let me start with you, Janine. Nine out of 10 African sides, you know, cleared the group stage, which was a continental record. Yet, only Morocco and Egypt reached the round of 16. So, I want to start with the group stage. What can we attribute our successes in the group stages to? >> I think if you'd ask quite a number of African fans, their feelings or their thoughts, especially when we had the seatings and the groupings, I'm not sure people would have seen 90% success rates. I'm not sure people have seen that. What people don't know behind those numbers are that this was the World Cup where there was more money afforded to national associations, which are the associations that house the teams, in terms of preparation. I think Shivo can clarify for me. I think we had up up to about $10 million or maybe more in terms of preparatory and participatory fee for 2026 to help to enable them train for this. And what that helps you get is quality amenities, the quality of friendly games, and travel is expensive across Africa. So, when you look at what that money affords you, um there's a saying you say in Africa is to say, "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail." At this point, they were not planning to fail cuz there's now more money afforded to prepare for that. So, if we're talking about the money angle and you compare it to the last World Cup according to the data that we had, that was about just around a million dollars as a participatory like a training fee ahead of the competition. So, money makes it better. And when there's more money, there's more opportunities. There's more opportunities, you get better. And I think that is one of that. That's not all of that. Secondly, we have an AFCON, which is the Africa Cup of Nations, which is comparable to what we have with CONCACAF and CONMEBOL and the UEFA every 2 years. It means whether we like it or not, we see our rivals' faces. I'm Nigerian every 2 years. Sometimes every year if there's no COVID or whatever happens. So, you get to literally come from one competition into the qualifiers for the competition into the competition again, really. So, there is a lot of understanding of playing within the African terrain. And so, when you have that much competition and more money, you get better. Thirdly, you have quality players on the national teams. So, when you have the money and you have the competition and you have the resource, the talent resource, you're going to get a 90% success rate at a World Cup where the rest of the world barely expects it. And so, it's a win-win for us. >> In addition to all of this, the expansion of the World Cup was really, really massive, especially for Africa. We used to have five teams go to the World Cup. This time, 10. Nine qualified directly and then one was able to qualify through the intercontinental playoff. And you could see that right from the qualifying because the qualification stage actually the qualification process changed. It became a group stage thing where you had all of the top team qualifying directly, and of course, the best second place teams first of all the African continental qualifier before going on to the intercontinental qualifier. So, you could see the competitiveness even within Africa increase just to jostle for these places. Cape Verde finishing ahead of Cameroon in the qualification process. Imagine that. And then, we had the one of South Africa and Nigeria being in the same group and at some point in that group Benin Republic was at the top of the group. So, these really interesting things happening right from the continental stage. I think it also came to the fore when they eventually came to the big stage to showcase what they're made of and really like one of the DR Congo players did say, he said "Now, African teams can dream big." Wissa, that's his name. He's He was the goal scorer for for DR Congo and one of the brightest stars for the team. I mean, they were the ones who qualified through the the intercontinental qualification stage and to for them to get there, they beat Cameroon, they beat Nigeria in the continental qualification stage. So, you just see that right from the African continent, everything is becoming more intense when it comes to competition before they eventually even go to the World Cup stage and it was so good to see that nine teams qualified to the next round from the group. >> Yeah, and Teboho, I want to get your take on something cuz I saw some European commentators early on saying, "Well, this expanded World Cup format is going to, you know, dilute the quality of play." In my opinion, I think we saw the reverse where we had teams that we assumed would be fantastic that came up against, you know, a Cape Verde, the small island nation, but had the heart as you know he's pointing out this accumulation of expertise, financing, and so on. So, I I don't know what your reaction was when you heard those takes and what you felt when you heard, you know, claims that it would diminish or dilute the quality of game. >> You know, that's what comes with something new. I mean, at this point even FIFA is considering maybe 64 in the 2030. >> [laughter] >> You know, because of how successful this particular one has been. Imagine Curacao. Like who that thought that they would qualify? And the interesting thing about this, yes, it is it was expanded and a lot of people might say, oh, because it was expanded, we are having teams like Curacao and like. But then, like I mentioned, look at the Cape Verde finishing above Cameroon right from the qualification stage. So, that tells you that things are becoming different, you know? So, yeah, those comments were there and obviously, I wanted to see how this pans out because I think everyone else the same. And going into the competition and seeing how Cape Verde, we had Egypt drawing Belgium in the group stage. You know, right from the first round of matches, Africa had already begun to show that, look, we're not here to play. Morocco, they drew Brazil. In fact, they they were scoring first. It was up to the opponents to come back. I think right from the group stage, we saw an African side showing what they're made of. Portugal, that draw against DR Congo. Really? And then, we had Cote d'Ivoire beating Ecuador as well. Listen, from the get-go, we knew that Africa was prepared for this and I'm so glad that they were able to showcase because now, another reason why I really um happy with this 2018 competition is five of these teams qualified. None of them actually topped their group. None of the African teams topped their group. So, we're getting there. Five of them finished second, including Cape Verde, which surprisingly finished ahead of Uruguay, a former champion. And then, we had the four others finishing as third best among the third best teams. And we had a situation whereby these teams actually went to the next round as pretty much underdogs, you know, because but when it comes to the ranking, I mean, even with the resources that they need mentioned, we're still lagging behind. Let's be honest. When it comes to these things, you know, it was so great that we had to push the European teams, the South American teams, the teams that are seen as way above us and surprised the world. So, I think that that's why at the end of the day this 48-team tournament was a huge success, especially for Africa. Also, because just to mention at the last World Cup in 2022 where Morocco actually got to the semi-final for the first time, we could see that all of the African teams in the five African teams that competition, they won at least one game. And they were able to get like four points, four points, except, you know, Morocco that got seven points on top of the group. So, just imagine for one moment that it was a 45-team tournament. We'd probably have all five of them going to the next round. But, yeah, so now it's the 48-team tournament. Well, let's go together. I'm ready. [clears throat] >> [laughter] >> And like the joy, I mean, I was running around DC like a madwoman, I have to say. The joy of watching all these games in the group stage and just being like, "Oh my god, I think we're going to do it." I think And I was admittedly a bit cocky and I was running around DC saying, "It's coming home." And home just being the African continent. [laughter] Um and this I mean, the highs and the lows. So, we had this amazing, beautiful high with the group stage and then we got to the knockout stage and it was just this really crushing roller coaster where we would do pretty well until the 80th minute, until the 86th minute, and everything would change. And like, Janine, I just want to know what would you describe that drop-off as? Or what would you attribute that change to? You know, the successes in the group stage and then this and especially the last half of these games at this 80th minute mark where things felt like they just completely went sideways. >> I think when you follow football, even with the best quality of players or the most optimal condition, there's something we know in football called game management. Game management means that even with all the resources at your beck and call, you have to intricately manage the game because number one, and it's dying embers. That means there's high pressure. There could be tactical drop-offs. It also it wears on the body. So there's something that happens to the body that then happens to the mind and vice versa because it's getting to the end. I am most tired when I know I'm almost done with my race. Like I'm like, I'm fine if it's a sprint, but when I know the finish line is just in my nose, that's when I just want to grab it. Which means there is a propensity that there will be lapses in judgments. And so game management is not just attributable and Carback me up on this, but game management is almost attributed to coaches, even more than the players. >> Yeah. >> Because they understand that the players are out on the pitch and doing their thing. Now, coach, you need to manage the game where mentally, psychologically, and resource-wise, you can see out the results. And I think that's one of the things that was lacking. You also have to look at squad depth. So that game management means that then I'm going to bring my experienced midfielder or defender to see out the game as against just charging the boys on the pitch. Like, go boys, 85 minutes, go, keep going. It's also bringing in the players from the bench. And that's what a number of all these cuz when we got to that point, it's the business end of the competition. This is what these teams know how to do. They know how to game management. They have the squad depth to support where you're like, "Okay, I think I can take one or two players out now." Not just to infuse some sort of fresh energy, but also time-wise is also a delay tactic to break down play, break down momentum for your opponent and to kind of revitalize your team. And I thought that that was lacking in some games. It was quite a recurring thing where the games were not managed effectively towards the end. Because that's where the top teams, or the elite teams, know how to up the ante. They know how to increase that pressure. Because they're used to it. It's what they do in the Champions League. It's what they do in the league. It's what they do in the competition. They will increase that pressure. They have the squad depth. They have the mentality. And I mean, when giving instructions or when the board is raised up or whatever that you've got 10 more minutes, you've got They begin to up the ante. They begin to put in more of that pressure. So, I do think that the game management was something that I would say pretty much could be improved markedly. I think this 48-game pilot, I would call it, shows what is possible if the African associations are serious. They would take this to the drawing board. They would invest in that sports psychology because it was really, really crushing. Like, I don't know how many sad TikToks and snaps I did because of the drop of I don't know. I just lost my marbles at some point. >> I was liking and retweeting all of them. If they would be fresh from the clip market and I would be the first one. Chimgo, over to you. I actually want to pull on this thread. We've covered, you know, the technical element of it on sports management and I want to pull on this thread about the psychology of it all, right? Because speaking of these memes, there were a lot of memes that were like, "Did we lose our focus? Did we lose our grit?" I don't know what the word is late in the game. Uh what do you think of that? >> So, I mean, really there were lots of reasonings that I mean, fans at home obviously were given regarding the drop-offs. And yes, I would probably lean towards a lack of concentration than towards, you know, there was also the talk about inferiority complex. I'll rather lean towards the loss of concentration than the inferiority complex. Because like Janine mentioned, this is football. And to be fair, you're playing against an opponent. They have a coach. They're reading the game as much as you are. So, for instance, in the game between Belgium and Senegal, yes, Senegal leading, they were controlling the game in the first half, heading into the second half, and you know, they lost the midfield when Pape Gueye was taken out. He got angry, obviously, and he has taken a break from international football for now. We'll see what happens in the future. And then, you also want to look at the Belgian side that made substitutions that actually eventually gave them the win. Romelu Lukaku came in at half time. He scored the first goal. He was assisted by a substitute. So, what are we saying? You know, this is football where the coaches are reading the game and trying to see where they make things work. And Belgium, even at that moment that they were losing by two goals to nothing, they had a history where they have actually come from a two-nil down a two-nil deficit to actually eventually win a game. So, they had that history behind them as well, and they were really looking forward to to make that happen. So, yes, probably the loss of concentration part as well, because come to think of it, football is also a sport where some of these players can wear you down. They run you ragged, make you tired, fatigue. And then, also, let's say in the game between Egypt and Argentina now, that was another controversial one, bone of contention, you know, a lot of things. But, we cannot argue the fact that there was a Messi magic at the end. And eventually, Argentina was down in like two goals in few few minutes and towards the end of the game as well. Yes, Egypt were angry, some calls didn't go in their favor and things like that. But, let's look at it. You were still leading leading two goals to nothing. Even the goal that was disallowed because of what happened early on during the progress of the play, you eventually scored the second goal after that one. So, maybe, just maybe, it affected their psyche, probably the way Argentina was playing. Maybe it affected them mentally. So, that's where the loss of concentration could come from or that's where the mental side could be affected or the psychological part could come from. >> What would it take maybe over the next 4 years for us to build up our sports management systems? Is it I'm sure there's a financial element to it, but Janine, over to you. Like, what would you want to see in the next 4 years to get us ready for 2030? >> I think it's the same thing that we've wanted. I think this time around, uh building off from this World Cup, there needs to be sustained momentum of growth. Now, that sustained momentum of growth must come with failures, but they must be sustained nonetheless. African fans are deeply passionate. No one likes to play 10 friendlies and lose nine of them, but they must be done because practice makes perfect. The quality and the gap between the elites in football and the developing in football is closing and must continue to close. 2030, the World Cup will come to Africa via Morocco. We had our showing in 2010 in South Africa. 16 years on, which is presently today and 20 years when it's in 2030, two decades. It's a generation away, yeah? So, there must be marked improvement. So, 2030 is going to be played across I think six countries, but cuz it'll be the centennial version, but the main host is going to be Morocco, Portugal, and Spain. And so, based off that, it will come down to what's Africa and kind of like around Africa's time zone. And so, with that, what needs to be seen in the next four years is sustained momentum of growth, and that can only happen with investment. So, we need to have more tune-up games. There needs to be more tune-up games to improve the national teams. There needs to be improvement of coaching and coaching badges because we talk about that loss of concentration, we talk about the game management. All of those decision-making falls down or boils down to the coaches. So, we're going to talk It's a different conversation about how there isn't quite the number of black coaches around the world. Like, it's we see that very clearly, yeah? And so, with Africa, we need to really invest in sort of like grassroots coaches, African coaches. And if we want to definitely develop by getting some of the best coaches across the world into our national teams, even better, let's get them, but there needs to be investment in that as well as investment in building the national teams. There also needs to be investment in improving the pipeline of players into those national teams. We just don't want to go on shopping sprees on already made players in different countries. We want to make sure that there's the hunger, there's that desire that we're shaping within our continent and feeding into the national teams as well. So, that needs to happen and I cannot tell you how much this happens with women's football in Africa where there's a lot of like local talent like that is being developed or they're sourced and then improved upon. And I think that when we have that local talent that we're improving, because how old is Lamine Yamal when he won the Euros? He's already a European champion and he's winning a World Cup at 19. So, if you have a 13-year-old right now sitting somewhere in Lusaka, playing somewhere in Nairobi, you know, juggling the ball in Cape Town, 4 years is a world of difference. That talent well harnessed can make it into the World Cup squad so that we cannot just talk about game management of loss of concentration. We also talk about squad depth, squad quality that also feeds into that as well. And I think so that's really very important, making sure that there is the quality of the games, this consistency of the games, tune-up games, the investment into coaching and everything around coaching. So, it's not just oh, like there's a manager, sports nutrition, dietary needs, psychology, you know, the things that we need to make it right. Ensuring that we are putting into scouting resources and the infrastructural development. Morocco is such a shining light. South Africa, North Africa, I love what Rwanda is building as well. Where there is the infrastructure, world-class facilities. Like if I, as Jenine Anthony, I know that I'm playing in a place that I'm liking the grass, I will win the World Cup. I will. >> [laughter] >> No, I mean, like here's the thing, because if you're going to be improving your quality, you know, across the world in terms of the best leagues, they know what playing in a good stadium feels like. They have that experience doing that. And so, you see that it raises their game as well. Like the quality of the infrastructure, the pitches also raises their game. Like I hope the people listening to this podcast, like football is such a game of many things colliding to give a result. It's not just that one team scored and the other It's so many things that have built into gaining a win or with gaining a trophy. And so, when you look at all these things have to happen in 4 years, not in that order, but these things need to happen. And finally, there needs to be commercialization. So, there needs to be African football is largely government funded. And I don't know how anybody wants to quote this. That is what the fact is. There needs to be privatization of African football where there is investment into that or a public-private partnership where then government doesn't have to figure out infrastructure, coaching. No. The money injected Yes, FIFA injects money, but the money the sport makes within the country itself can also be put into the development of sports. Sports is now a business. It is a career. And it's not just about feel-good. It's not about uniting a nation. People have jobs, careers, build generational wealth from it. And so, when you have that commercialization as well, like making sure that the game is marketable enough that there's injection of funds that improves it. Again, I think I've said it already on this podcast, like it's win-win. Win-win for all, really. >> Chibogu, I have a question for you. I actually have two questions, and I'd love to get your takes on both. What do you think of this new proposal by Infantino to sell off a part of FIFA to private equity? And whether that model, in your opinion, would be a type of model that African footballing organizations can emulate to raise more private capital. And the second is on sports betting and whether you think or feel that sports betting has been a net good or net negative for African soccer overall. >> Uh betting, no, I'm not really an expert on that. With regard to what Infantino's proposal is, I can't really say what has happened until now and how the football world is reacting to this because yes, FIFA is trying to explain that this is for the benefit of football in the long run, you know, and it's something that will bring that will increase the money that goes to the member associations from like $8 million to $20 million for each $20 million for each um member associations, which of course is a deal that anyone would jump on, you know, but then you have to look deep. A lot of media, they're beginning to say who the investor actually is, you know, and all the connection kind of links of course to the US president and we all know how everything has evolved until now from the peace prize to Balotelli Balogun's red card, you know, everything going on. A lot of media, they're just bringing all of these things together and looking at it as it's not like it's a bad thing in its on its own, you know, but I feel like how it has progressed to this point. One Another thing that a lot of the federations, UEFA, at this point CONCACAF and AFC the Asian Federation they've all rejected this proposal and you know, they're bringing different reasons. One of them has to do with due process. I mean, they heard about this from the media just like everyone else is hearing about it which well, it's not good enough for something of this magnitude of this significance which in essence should benefit them. Okay, so they are major stakeholders in this. And then also they're talking about the unity of this because UEFA having an emergency meeting for this and already announcing that they are boycotting the World Cup if this goes ahead. This is already dividing the world of football. So, everything about it so far hasn't just been accepted in any shape or form. And it's to be honest, I think it's not going to work because at the end of the day FIFA actually stated in their press release that this can only go ahead if majority of the member associations accept it. At this point, most of the 211 national associations have refused it. The Confederation of African Football, what are they waiting for them? But even if whatever they do, it really won't matter now because we've seen press releases from three confederations refusing this particular issue. So, it's supposed to bring in more money you're selling, but personally you want to look at the fact that at some point, yes, FIFA is insisting that they will still be in charge of the operations, in charge of organizing this tournament, in charge of you know, everything. Except that it's going to bring in more money. But we know how business works. I I Gianni can speak more about how business works. People don't put in money without expecting anything. So, even the long run, they want more tournaments, you know, because we want to make more money. So, make more tournaments. I mean, in this ecosystem where organizations are already complaining about players having too many games, it's already an issue, injury issues. So, imagine bringing in more tournaments because obviously the investors will want more money from this tournament. And there Another angle to this is you would want to host a competition in a place where they will pay more money, you know. You would want to increase it. Already, the World Cup in the USA has already been bashed for the increased ticket prices. In fact, they will want more ticket. They would want to increase that even more, you know. So, in as much as FIFA is saying, "This is the situation at this point. We will still be in charge. They will not interfere." And all, it's difficult football fans otherwise. It's difficult to convince UEFA, CONCACAF, or AFC at this point. >> I have a take on this, which is I'm a PR professional. I cannot state how much of a disaster this is. This is a disaster because timing-wise, I do not think that this was kind of the right time. Look, I don't know how to explain this. Football is the people's game. And the people are can be hesitant to change. We literally have been talking about change. We know how much expanding to 48 teams took an arm, a leg, and everyone's animals as well. You know, it took so much to convince and not just even convincing, then the evidence before our eyes with the play. Then you have people that have maybe been turned from doubters to believers of the project. If you understand the pulse of the game, how it's the working man's game, you understand that everything takes time. I don't think Spain has gotten home yet from all the World Cup celebrations, and there are already changes being talked about, being tabled, and deadlines around that. I think I think this World Cup I personally think this World Cup needed some reflection. It's It's great to hear of its commercial gains and its profitability. But, there were a number of things at the base of this World Cup that needed a debrief and perhaps a reassurance. We're Africans. An African referee couldn't be at the World Cup. Africa's best referee couldn't be at the World Cup. There were travel restrictions at the World Cup. There were quite a number of things that the World Cup hadn't We could understand that play was, you know, it wasn't played. If the end of the World Cup, there are things that need addressing first that haven't been addressed, that there isn't a call to action on how things can be improved on. There was a lot of talking points, you know, that hadn't been addressed. I think what had happened is all this have been commercially viable. Let's put in another commercially viable idea. People wouldn't listen to it right now because there's still so much to be addressed from this World Cup. That was a first. You have for the first time almost a 30-minute half time. Like, people are still salty of that. So, it just feels like too much too soon. People don't know And then, right about now as well, it's 64 teams. So, we're like, "Hold up. Hold up. Hold up." There's so much going on that that's not the pace of the sport. The sport has its future. The reason why we're here now, 10 years ago we weren't here with the money that with football. So, it's not as if football will not change. We didn't have the technology VR that I'm speaking of now. So, football will take changes. It just need to take take changes in stride and in times and in seasons. >> Yeah. I mean, down to I think in my as a casual viewer, the sort of what felt like the final nail in the coffin when it comes to trust was that reversal of Malabo guns right in my opinion. And I'm a casual viewer, so I can only imagine for the people. But I I want to end with last but seriously not least, WAFCON. Janine, you started Ladies March because women's African women's football was, you know, close to invisible in the media. What are your early takes? We've already seen quite interesting results. Tanzania, my country, beating South Africa 2-1. Is it coming home? Maybe. >> You've jinxed it now, CATHERINE. >> NO. NO. >> You jinxed it. That's why you did that at the WORLD CUP. >> NO. NO. >> NOW you've jinxed it for Tanzania. >> No. No. No. No. No. >> I had to call it out. >> I believe. No, I believe this somehow my words will be jinx-proof. I believe. Except don't quote me. Don't quote [laughter] me on that. But also Nigeria 2-3 Malawi beat our, you know, I mean, the country with the most wins, 10 wins. There was a 6-0 game, Zambia-Egypt. I just want to hear your takes. I want to hear what you all think of WAFCON 2026, whether there's been any whether been changes, positive changes, any negative changes. Over to you. Wait, now I'm going to overthink the jinxing. >> Please don't. >> Chibogou, over to you. What are your takes um as an editor with Ladies March as well? >> Yeah, so I mean, the WAFCON is finally happening, first of all. And we said about it this competition was postponed from March. It's just annoying first that CAF, the Confederation of African Football, no matter how they want to sugarcoat it, no matter how they want to say it or put it, they keep making women's football an afterthought. And it's really sad that this is the case. It was postponed from March. And And yes, we got the increase in prize money. It's doubled. You know, it's like giving a child sweet. Oh, you know, sorry for what we need. Oh, please, give me a break. It's like anytime they do this, then I'll say, "Okay, we've increased the prize money. Please, you have to increase the prize money anyway. Just don't keep postponing this." Okay, so going into the competition itself, the negatives, let's start. We're having bad commentary, poor commentary of these games, which is not nice compared to what we're getting on the pitch. And then, we don't have a lot of fans. That seems to be a decade-long issue. I really wish that people get to realize how much value this women have. We're having a team, 10-time champions, Nigeria. It's a rare thing, not only in Africa, in the world. We should Right from Nigeria, we should appreciate these women more. And then, we're beginning to see a lot of other teams catching up, which is one thing that the Women's AFCON this year is showcasing. You saw the game, I mean, the game against South Africa, Tanzania beating South Africa. And of course, the biggest one of them all, Malawi beating our sisters, Tabitha and Temwa, beating Nigeria. You know, I go back to the joke that they had in the build-up to this. So, there was a round table where there was Asisat, and there was also Tabitha. And Asisat was already telling Tabitha, let's not forget that these two, they actually played in China in the past. So, Asisat was telling Tabitha that she should calm down because I mean these other players I know what they're made of. And Tabitha said, "No, it's Nigeria that needs to calm down. Please, you guys should not give us 5-0. 1-0 is enough." And then when the game came, what did we see? They actually split the five and you know, Malawi took three and [laughter] Nigeria two. But anyway, I mean, I was so happy particularly for the Cameroonian sisters because they have longed for this moment for so long, you know, and it's finally come. Now they want to go all the way. They want to get that World Cup ticket. And it's actually possible, you know, even though they are in a difficult group which also has Zambia with Barbara Banda. You know, the interesting thing about this group also is the fact that we have players who are Ballon d'Or nominees, players who in the Guardian top 100 players of the year. We have African players actually doing so well in their clubs abroad. So, and this WAFCON is really showing us these players and showing us how far we've come in spite of the negatives we've also seen. So, I'm really glad that, you know, we've had Yeah, Nigeria losing I'm not happy, but I'm glad that we've had this plot twists, you know, because somehow this has also made the world pay attention to this competition. And we'll see how it goes because now it's straightforward. You finish in top two, you progress to the quarterfinals. Bottom two, you are out. And what's interesting about Nigeria's group now is that there's a possibility that Zambia, Malawi, Nigeria all finish with six points. Sorry, Egypt, but yeah. There's that possibility. And that will bring us to a tiebreaker. When you talk about tiebreaker, it starts with head-to-head. So, that's another thing I'm looking forward to. It's going to be painful that one of these teams might have to go down even after having six points and winning two games like the others. It's going to be heartbreaking. But then again, it's also something that is going to accentuate the quality of this competition. And we'll see how it goes from here. >> Janine, over to you. We'd love to hear your take, see your opinion, and maybe even some insights on the industry at large. If there's been any sort of steep increase in investment in women's football in Africa. >> I think this particular WAFCON is a World Cup qualifier. And so, I think for a number of the players actually in the national teams, there are two things at stake. Either win this competition or get one of the four tickets for Africa to the World Cup. And it's going to be 2027 in Brazil, same time next year. And so, there are a lot of incentives riding on this particular competition, which makes this um I think Chibog was alluding about when there is competition like when there's something more to play for. It's great to be the African queens, but it's also great to showcase the world in Brazil exactly, you know, why you're there. And so, there are incentives for these teams. >> So, you see what Cape Verde did at the men's World Cup where they held European champions. No, no, not even just that. Like, the thing about like holding Argentina to a result is exactly what Malawi has done to Nigeria. Nigeria is one of maybe six, seven countries in the whole world that have been to every women's World Cup competition since its inception in the '90s. I think 1991 specifically. So, for you two, this is the first time you're playing a WAFCON. But you said, "Hold my smoothie. I'm going to hold like the 10-time champions. And it's not just 10 times. If you have to add the other versions of the WAFU Cup, Nigeria has won it more than 10 times. Technically, but officially it's 10 times. And so, the first game you're getting that scalp is like the enormity of that is exactly like why we like the women's game. We have invested in the women's game from Ladies March. Chibogu and I have covered so many women's football competitions even out of pocket because we mostly don't get funding even from media houses to actually cover the women's game. We don't. The women's game, women's football has been an absolute labor of love. Absolute. We have ensured that we will tell the stories of these girls that are underrepresented. Their stories are not being told. They are not being marketed. You barely know them. Like these girls end up being on social media so you can even put a face to the name or even just have a name because they play this game with all of their hearts. Give you the insights. What's happening behind the scenes. What their personalities are like. I should have been at the WAFU Cup, but I couldn't because it was canceled. Like I had flights. Everything was ready. And so, to what Chibogu mentioned about how there's so much that is happening in the women's game because then if you're making a plan that is saying, "Oh, you know, July is going to be World Cup." And people have plans. And there's a plan for the women's AFCON in March. Stick to it cuz I couldn't be there because then plans change and now the women's game is missing one fan. And that's what happens. These are the domino effects that we speak on about what generally then makes women's football in a space where it needs huge investment, huge improvement, huge marketing because there's a saying in Nigeria about the women's national team that have won. And by the way, Nigeria women's national team are the most successful national team in Africa, men or women. Like it's not even comparable. 10 titles is undisputed. But there's a saying in Nigeria by Nigerian fans when they speak about women's team, they say the women's team that they deliver. Which means they'll be delivering. Like they don't start like when they go on the pitch, like even if you give them zero or you give them 100, they will deliver. But at the end of the day, this delivering is mostly because of talent and is more of talent and drive than resources put in. We will have a completely different podcast if I go on that line and I don't want to do that. It's because of a lot of the passion and the drive than the funding, than the actual catering to these national teams. And that needs to be improved because we're going to see a women's World Cup next year and you perhaps have Chibogwa and I back on the podcast again talking about it. And we're going to be like, yeah, you know, kind of expected because when you fail to plan, you kind of like plan to fail. And that doesn't really help where the women's game globally has already gone. Women's game has gone far. When we started covering women's football, I don't think I dreamed the kind of success that I'm seeing now. We've been doing like this match for for 10 plus years. Where the game was 10 years ago is not where it is now. And Africa [clears throat] is still kind of somehow somewhere kind of like trying to figure out where its place is and that just needs to be improved. So, WAFCON, we're definitely enjoying the best of women's football irrespective if Nigeria is doing its part or not. We're enjoying what Morocco is bringing to the party, South Africa as well, another champion being held by Tanzania. We're having Ghana resurgence and all that. And Cape Verde as well, Cabo Verde coming into this competition. I know you're so excited. Put that for Tanzania. I think it's coming home. The Cabo Verde team, like, you know, taking a lot of support and inspiration from their male counterparts. That's also that's playing with them in this competition. So, um we are excited to always talk about women's football. We are always excited to have a platform that allows us to really speak and we are just speaking of a tiny fraction of what women's football is really all about in Africa. We want the youth to get involved. I'm loving the fact that we can speak about it on this podcast. Let's get involved. Let's get the youth involved. Like let's go to the games. Doesn't have to be a WAFCON. These women play in leagues. They play in community leagues. They play in championships in our respective countries. Most times you don't even pay a ticket to get there. And doing content around women's football is how to get the word out. I have held a position at a social media company where I think one of my fastest growing sports accounts was a women's football account. Because not only were they always doing content around what they do. No matter how small, no matter how non-fancy it looked, the fact that not only were they engaging with the community on social media, they also had people in comment section saying, "My daughter plays. Can I join your academy?" Oh my god. They did it on their own. And so there's so much that can be achieved around women's football. It builds women's communities. Women know how to communicate. Women know how to trust each other. Women know how to depend on each other. It's a team's game. So it's much more. And there's also investment into understanding more about women's health in sports. So there's been conversation about how the menstrual cycle also affects female footballers. There's so much that we have untapped around women's football. And platforms like this helps us finally speak on what is truly important on our continent. Sports is important. Women's sports is important. Equal pay is important. But at the end of the day, these women will give everything for their badge. And the WAFCON is just a small fraction. But our biggest magnet to see that women's football in Africa is growing and has the propensity to develop more than what we expect. Same thing that we're giving to the men's arm of football on the continent. >> I quite literally couldn't have put it any better. I mean, I know we've talked about the World Cup and now AFCON, but my heart feels really full talking to both of you. >> [laughter] >> Like I actually want to go outside right now and start dribbling. And I haven't done that since grade eight. You are both so cool. You're both so brilliant. You're both so passionate. It is a crime that you guys are not on a full media package right now in Morocco covering this game. Like that's already a loss to everyone. And whenever I watch WAFCON games, I'm struck by the fact, as you put it, there have been a lot of obstacles to overcome to just get there. And so when people show up, they're putting their all. You're never going to watch a game where somebody's falling asleep. Absolutely not. So, okay, to end this, we ask into Africa for people's favorite music or what they're listening to. And I would love to know for both of you what your ultimate and your favorite World Cup song is to wrap it up there. Waka Waka. Shakira's "Waka Waka". I mean, it's a banger for a good reason. >> Is obviously our first World Cup on the African soil. We have a number of honorable mentions. Like I have obviously Shakira's as well, but I think fun fact, I have a blog sports like probably 10 or 11 years ago I wrote about exactly this question you asked about like best World Cup songs. Like 11 years ago I was my musings. So and I literally >> Send it to us. We'll add it to the show notes. Yeah. >> I will. I will. Like it was so interesting to, you know, be reminded that oh my god, like 11 years ago, about 10 years 11 years ago I think, I wrote about this like World Cup songs because it's something that I've always been fascinated in terms of also how football sells itself through music and also, you know, unites the world through music and via sports. And so, it's always kind of like tough because we've had fantastic World Cup theme songs. Like, I personally have had fantastic World Cup theme songs. Waving Flag by K'naan. Oh. >> That's my favorite. Honestly, honestly, honestly, sometimes I cry a little when I listen to it cuz it reminds me of [clears throat] like my childhood. >> Fair. The lyrics, like, there's this sense of nationalism and pride that it brings. It's not like, "Oh, let's dance it away." It's like, "Wave your flag. Be proud." And it goes beyond the field. So, I do understand. I'm with you. I don't cry, Catherine, but I'm with you. >> [laughter] >> I'm with you. >> Wow. Okay. >> That it is very heart-tugging and it is emotional and it just gives you It's almost like a national anthem. >> Yeah. >> Like a personalized anthem for you when you think about where you're coming from as Africa and it starts. So, there's obviously Waving Flag. Like, that World Cup seems to have like a lot of bangers. Like, that 2010 World Cup. >> I mean, cuz it was in the African continent, so long. >> Do you know what you get? So, it's like >> Right. Yeah. Right. >> [laughter] >> It definitely had a lot of that. So, I definitely My honorable mention is obviously Waving Flag by K'naan. I love Cup of Life by Ricky Martin. I think it was at the 1998 France World Cup that had a lot of like salsa. And see, when it comes to salsa, girlies, >> They've got you. >> I don't play. >> [laughter] >> So, it had a lot of like all the music and everything and I love it. But, Waka Waka, I mean, it was just us. >> It's beautiful. I forget the South African band that was >> Freshlyground. >> Freshlyground, yeah. Yeah, so I think when they came in with those vo- oh, the chills. Like, I get chills. I love it. >> Yeah, so Waka Waka, I think Shakira like the It's that >> Yeah, I I also love Waka Waka and of course the Waving Flag as well cuz I mean, for me they remain like the all-time best. But just to bring it a bit recent, you know, it's not like they beat the other ones, but I like DNA. The FIFA anthem put this recent World Cup more than a game. You know, to be honest, after I came back from from Mexico, I had that song on repeat for more than a week. Yeah, because there was just a something about the lyrics of the song that when you fall, you get to rise again. And Andrea Bocelli sang in Italian, and then the Korean singer, I think I don't want to make any mistake with her name, the Korean singer also sang in Korean, and then it was just flowing. And I really loved the chorus. It says, "It's more than just a game, it's our DNA." You know, that kind of thing, it just like made me realize even more how much this sport means to people, to fans. And they were playing this song like almost every time we were in the stadium before kickoff. They were always playing this song. I just I had goosebumps every time. You know, it was so cool. So, yeah, I don't like it the best always, but I guess just to be recent a bit, let it not seem like >> You know what? And I think one thing about World Cup songs is because it happens every 4 years, you don't get to like review all the World Cup songs you Because I remember when I wrote on my blog spot about like my favorite World Cup songs, Waka Waka wasn't my top World Cup song. >> It was number four. I read it. >> Yeah, they were number four. Thank you, Chibogu. Like you exposed me. >> [laughter] >> Because I think I still there are some there are other like World Cup songs at the time that I enjoyed more. I think even Waving Flag was higher than the Waka Waka for me. >> Yeah. I think Waving Flag was second. Let me help you. >> Yeah. So but like you would think Chibogu wrote that blogs but it was me. It was me. And you know, I'm the author you know of that but yeah, that's my girl. But you know, then look at the value the how evergreen that song is. Where you were when you heard it, what happened, the kind of replay value that it had. Waka Waka has beat all records. That's what interests me with like other like World Cup editions and newer songs. It's like let's see over the test of time, you know, like how much does that look cuz Waka Waka feels like it's on a throne of its own and it's been like 16 years of that. So I think that is more than just a game, it's our DNA. And for people that are talking about it, none of our countries went to the World Cup. But it doesn't matter because it's more than just a game really. Like it doesn't matter if you have your own flags being waved or your anthems being sung at those grounds. It's the fact that football is so beautiful, the emotions, the stories, the way it unites, the things that come about it is beyond your country or being personalized. Like you're happy for a stranger. >> Right. >> Like you're literally happy for Spain. Like I've never been there. You know, it's like that that kind of thing. >> Exactly. It's amazing. >> Ah. What a perfect place to end it. >> Chibogu, Janine, thank you guys so much for your analysis, for your time, for your expertise, for your contributions to the sport, for your contributions to women's sports, to African football. I just feel that we are in safe hands with the both of you. So thank you. >> Thank you so much and we love that we get to bring these insights to the fans listening all around the world this podcast. Please, please continue to show love and follow the game, the women's game. It's currently on. Use hashtags. Just do as much as you can. But, also like like yes, let's continue to support African football and more broadly like African sports, whether it's basketball, tennis, golf, you name it. Like we're amazing African athletics, amazing Africans doing amazing things. Even our para athletes as well, they're doing great in their respective sports. And so, so glad to be on this platform where we can where our passion can make sense and we're able to bring it to an audience that would help us grow the sport on the continent. So, really glad about it. >> [music] >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for listening to Into Africa. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe wherever you [music] listen to your podcast. You can find more analysis from the Africa program on our website, csis.org, or find us on social media. Search for [music] @CSISAfrica on X, LinkedIn, and Instagram.