Israel’s missed opportunity with Ukraine | On the Record with Michael Brodsky

[music] Good evening and welcome to On the Record, I24 News's in-depth interview show. On Monday, Ukraine celebrated its 35th Independence Day. As the war with Russia rages on, four and a half years after Russia unilaterally invaded Ukraine, the front line has become largely stagnant with minimal Russian gains in the eastern Bonbas region. [music] while both sides trade heavy missile and drone attacks. And during all this time, Israel's ambassador to Ukraine, Michael Brodsky, has lived under the constant threat of Russian missiles and drones as his host country struggled to preserve some semblance of normal life in wartime. From the chaotic first hours of the invasion through the decision to temporarily relocate the embassy's operations to Lviv in the west, Brodzky's wartime posting was unlike anything he had previously experienced. And as the war progressed, Brodzky watched as relations between Israel and Ukraine fluctuated over what Keev saw as insufficient support by Jerusalem. But all that changed following the October 7th attacks with both countries engaged in wars they view as wars of survival. So, could Israel have done more to help Ukraine? And what position should Israel take as the war rages on? To break all this down, it's an honor to have on the show tonight. [music] Rodsky is an Israeli diplomat recently finishing his five-year posting as ambassador to Ukraine. A posting which he held under the governments of Bennett Laid and Netanyao. He is the first Ole or immigrant from the massive aliyah from the former Soviet Union in the 1990s to become a career ambassador. Previously served as ambassador to Kazakhstan and Kygystan. Michael Brodzky, thank you very much for joining me this evening. Hello and thank you for inviting me. >> Great. So, Ambassador, as I mentioned in my introduction, the front lines in the war are quite stagnant. Not really any much movement, a little in the in the side of uh Russia, but in recent months, we have seen an concerted a concerted effort by Ukraine to target deep inside Russian territory. So could you give us a brief kind of overview as to the situation the current situation of uh the war in Ukraine? >> You know I describe the situation as a mix of uh the first world war and the third world war. I'll explain you why because on the one hand there is a huge uh front line and as you said it's almost stagnant. It's been stagnant for already many years and the number of casualties from both sides is mounting is huge and uh this situation when the which is completely stuck uh reminds us of the first world war >> right the trenches >> the trenches exactly on the other hand the use of modern technologies is uh something totally new something which we haven't experienced yet there is a kill zone between the two armies. H and literally no person can survive in this kill zone for more than a few seconds. But this is something totally new, the use of drones by both sides, but especially by the Ukrainian side uh which uh has become very uh prominent in using drones and modern technologies in general. This is something totally new. Uh and probably it uh gives us an example of what can happen in other areas including the Middle East. >> Yeah. So, we're going to get to that a little bit later in the conversation, but in terms of Israel, at what point in the war did Ukraine reach out to Israel and seek its assistance? Well, it was uh even before the war, there were contacts and uh there were messages from the Ukrainian side to Israel uh and asks to provide some sort of weapons especially air defense. I remember the uh former uh minister of defense of Ukraine uh Mr. Alex Risnikov visited Israel. It was December uh 22. So two months before the war started, I accompanied him on this visit. And he discussed in very general terms, but he discussed the possibility of providing some sort of weapons from Israel to Ukraine. This has never happened uh for many reasons and our red lines, our limitations that we've always had is just one reason, but there are other reasons. the history of our relations in this sphere between Israel and Ukraine and uh and some other reasons. But and of course when the war broke out uh then the demands became really urgent and Zilinski turned to Israel officially nonofficially and asked to provide especially the Iron Dome. You know, everyone was talking about the Iron Dome and I realized to my surprise that at some at some point that many people thought that there is a real iron dome that can protect the whole country which is obviously not not true and it's not the case and this is something that I had to explain to the general public in Ukraine. That iron dome is not exactly what you have in mind. It's something totally different. >> So you touched on these limitations that prevented Israel from fully supporting Ukraine. Could you break those down? Well, absolutely. It's I think it's pretty clear and also to the Ukrainians, it's pretty clear now that we are here in the Middle East in a very dangerous situation and we should take into account uh uh different players and different forces that play significant role in in the Middle East including Russia. And at that time, if you remember, Russia was very close. Russia, the Russian army was very close to our northern border. uh they were based in Syria and we at that time created a channel of communication with the Russians to prevent different conflicts in the sky of Syria and it worked. So we didn't want to jeopardize this cooperation with Russia. Uh there were other considerations. The Jewish community in Russia is huge. We didn't want to we wanted to protect it. We want it to be safe. And >> was there a fear that if Israel helps Ukraine, provides it with defensive weapons that the government in Moscow would take steps against the Jewish community? >> I don't I don't think one could rule it out completely. I wouldn't rule it out completely. Everything was possible. And uh I think the Russians were very clear that there will be consequences on military cooperation between Israel and Ukraine. And also we realized that we are not part of Europe. We are not a part of NATO. There are so many countries that provided and still provide assistance, military assistance to Ukraine. We could provide at that time something uh different. We provided very um significant humanitarian assistance. You remember that at the beginning of war there was an attempt to become a mediator by the prime minister Bennett at the time who went to Moscow. So we thought we can contribute to Ukraine in other ways and we did. Mhm. Did you ever find it uh challenging or uh troubling on a personal level to portray these messages to the Ukrainian government, to the Ukrainian people? Cuz I I would imagine that internally you would want Israel to do more, but you understood the limitations. So, did you ever feel uncomfortable relaying this complexity to Keefe? >> I'll put it this way. I found it challenging. Yes, indeed. But I didn't feel any internal conflict because I I understood the reasons and the uh complexity of our position and it was and it still is very complex very nuanced and of course it's difficult to explain it to a country or or to people who are uh attacked uh brutally attacked and uh whose uh uh survival is on stake. So it was it wasn't easy. I hope that eventually uh I and my colleagues managed to explain or at least to project the logic of the Israeli decision-m process and uh we also managed to balance the situation by providing very essential crucial military assistance to Ukraine. Mhm. Now, did you notice or were there any differences in the the way Israel treated Ukraine under the different prime ministers, Bennett Laid for a short period or Netanyahu? >> I don't think so. I think there was a consensus on the general policy. Obviously, there are nuances, but uh speaking of the general policy, it hasn't changed much. in hindsight given the limitations that some of them are not the same because Russia's influence in Syria is not like it was and Israel doesn't need that same coop co coordination with Moscow in hindsight do you think Israel should have done more to support Ukraine >> everything has changed following the 7th of October and I believe that many questions on the Ukrainian sides have also disappeared after the 7th of October I I think they realize much better uh what sort of ch challenges we are facing here, what sort of threats we are experiencing and what sort of uh enemies we are facing. So they uh understand that our ability to assist Ukraine in the military sphere is very very limited and uh I personally believe our policy will not change before the war in Ukraine stops and hopefully it will happen soon but you know never know you never know and no one I think no one knows when it will happen. Now there's one thing that really I found striking during this war as it played out that the way Ukraine is perceived now in the west as this uh David combating this Goliath against all odds surviving not just surviving but giving a a fight trying to maintain normal life. It takes me back to how, not personally, but how I read it, uh, how Israel was perceived after the six- day war of, uh, the small country, uh, with a much weaker army compared to its many adversaries and overcoming. Do you see these similarities between Israel of then and Ukraine? And what other similarities do you notice between the countries? >> Absolutely. And not only between Israel then and Ukraine now, but between Israel now and Ukraine now. And there are so many similarities between the two countries. You know, not only in terms of our positioning and facing uh powerful enemies, but also in terms of our internal political culture. And in many in many ways we are very similar. All right. So, in terms of these similarities and things that Ukraine and Israel today have in common, one of that is a common adversary or enemy, and that is Iran. How does this shared enemity with Iran play out in relations between Israel and Ukraine? >> Absolutely. We see eye to eye the Iranian threat. Uh Iran Iran is clearly our enemy, but it's clearly an enemy for Ukraine as well. and uh we uh started cooperating on the Iranian issue. I cannot uh uh talk about in details you know about the cooperation but we um managed to um together with the Ukrainians to bring about a decision by the Ukrainian government to declare the revolutionary guards as the terrorist organization. This was a very important decision, not only because it was a Ukrainian decision, but also because many countries in Europe look at Ukraine and they um you know they value this decision and and they might make the same decision following the Ukrainian the Ukrainian decision and also um on in the international organizations we cooperate on the Ukrainian issue. because there is it's clear to both countries that we have a common common enemy and we should work together to uh limit its influence in military terms on the Middle East and on the Ukrainian conflict. So [snorts] earlier you talked about for example before the war and at the beginning of the war with Russia how Ukraine sought Israel Israel's assistance but what did Israel learn from Ukraine's experience visav Iran that helped Israel militarily? >> I think the whole world learned a lot from Ukraine that you can stand a very serious enemy. you can uh even uh um you know uh you can you can win you can protect your country despite the change of of uh the capabilities the the different capabilities and um as for Iran obviously Ukraine has gained huge experience in dealing with Iranian weapons especially the drones and this is something that we uh started learning from the Ukrainians because we are facing the same threat at the moment. But Ukraine is probably the only country which has uh real experience in dealing with this drone and actually they uh managed to develop very efficient systems and now they managed to fire most of the drones. Uh unfortunately they don't have enough uh air defense to to fire to deal with the ballistic missiles or or with uh cruise cruise missiles but uh as for drones they are pretty efficient and I think this is very important experience for us as well. >> So are there any realtime kind of um lessons that Israel has already adapted as from learning from Ukraine? We are in the process. I I cannot tell you if we have adapted these lessons already. But we have technologies of our own. Uh we go in a way in two parallel lines because both countries are in active war situation and both countries develop military technologies >> but uh the synergy is there and it will devel develop further. >> Now you mentioned that Israel isn't the only one seeking Ukrainian assistance and learning from its experience. We also saw in the wake of the Iran war absolutely countries like uh the UAE, Qatar, Saudi Arabia seeking Ukrainian assistance. So how what how much of an impact is this playing in Ukraine's relations with the region and can Israel maybe kind of try and hop on that for regional integration? Uh absolutely and I think the Ukrainians have realized that they have uh for a change a they have cards they have a clear asset uh which they managed to develop and which is very important for many countries in the world especially especially the Gulf countries which were attacked by Iran and I know that quite many countries in the Middle East have turned to the Ukrainian government and asked for assistance in protecting the critical infrastructure and their population from the Iranian missiles and drones and this assistance as far as I know was provided. You know, Zilinski visited the Middle Eastern countries and he promised to provide assistance to them. >> From what you can share, what are these lessons that Ukraine is giving its partners Israel, the Gulf? It's not necessarily about any new technologist. It's about the experience. And there is no other country which has such an experience as Ukraine, as the Ukrainians with this huge front line and with the experience of many years dealing with drones, not necessarily Iranian drones, but also Russian drones. you know, Russia managed to develop uh huge, you know, industry of drones and and in general military interesting. I don't think they use that much the Iranian drones anymore. But at the beginning, I remember they were uh relying pretty much on the Iranian drones, but not probably not anymore. And uh this field obviously changes quite rapidly >> because at the beginning of the war you had Ukrainian policemen shooting these shy drones with rifles in the streets. I would say that's not the case now. >> That's not the case. Now they have other ways of dealing with these drones. >> Uh but uh not necessarily you know uh any technological breakthrough was needed to deal with it. just the matter of experience. What works, what doesn't work. That's what I'm talking about. >> Can Ukraine win this war? >> Well, I don't think realistically and speaking that anyone is thinking of a clear win. And what is a win? What is a victory? And that's a that's a big question. But I believe Ukraine managed and will manage to survive as an independent and as a free country which which is very important as a democratic country and it is a democratic country with all the problems that it witnesses. It is a free and democratic country. I hope uh that they will remain such a country and they have this internal uh forces and uh uh internal will to uh remain independent and free and I believe they will manage. >> Has your successor been appointed yet? >> He he has already arrived. He's already in KF. Yes. >> And so what did you what kind of key insights did you share with him? Well, it I first of all I hope that at least in his term the war will be over and this is the main thing that I told him that I really hope because I was hoping in my term it was quite a long term 5 years I was hoping it the war would be over it didn't happen I hope in his term it will happen uh but uh no matter what I believe uh both countries u will remain very close our relations will remain very special, very emotional and this is something that anyone who works in Ukraine should be reminded that we have a very special bond this uh you know human bridge which is so precious and so important and uh no matter what no matter what sort of challenges we are facing uh the relations will be will remain very uh close and I I usually describe describe it as a family type of relations, you know, between very close relatives. From time to time, we need a family psychologist to deal with with the problems and we have uh obviously we have our ups and downs. But having said that, we have two very close countries with huge potential of cooperation in different fields, including the military field, especially what the war is over in Ukraine. I heard in another interview that you're writing a children's book. >> Yes, we wrote with my wife who is an illustrator and an artist. We wrote a children's book which has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine. Although it was written during the war in Ukraine but nothing to do with it. It talks about uh uh diplomacy and how to raise it. It's called how to raise a a diplomat at home. Uh these sort of things. It's a funny book with lots of pictures. It's a more of a comics than than of a regular book and uh it went out in Ukraine, but we hope to translate it into other languages probably including English and Hebrew. >> Well, good luck. I hope uh the book succeed and I hope Israel continues to enjoy from your service. I want to move on now to the last part of the show. It's a rapid fire segment. I'm going to show you three pictures and tell me the first thing that comes to mind. So, let's look at the first picture. Okay, >> if you will. >> This is Israeli Prime Minister Netanyao with Ukrainian President Zalinski recently Lindsey Graham's funeral last month. >> True. >> Well, every encounter between the between the leaders is important. This was a very short one. I have no idea what they spoke about, but uh we have um so many issues to discuss and so many things to talk about. So I'm pretty sure they they didn't waste their time. Um otherwise um although the prime minister hasn't our prime minister hasn't visited Ukraine during the war, but two of our foreign ministers visited Ukraine. the former one coin and the current foreign minister Gidonsar visited Ukraine and Mr. Ciga the Ukrainian foreign minister was invited by Mr. S to visit Ukraine and he he accepted the invitation so hopefully he will come pretty soon to Israel. >> All right, let's move on to the next picture. This is one of the first pictures you posted on the 24th of February 2022 when Russia invaded >> Ukraine. Yes. And I remember a lot lots of things from uh uh that specific day. And I remember that someone sent me a message and said this is a truly historical moment. And this is what I felt. Maybe not on that specific day, but later on I realized that it was a historic day. And this was uh when uh the Russians attacked Kiev on the very first day of war and some of um Russian I think it was tank or something uh managed to get almost to the center of Kief. But then uh the Ukrainians managed to stop uh uh the invasion and uh from uh then the situation changed dramatically and uh the rest the rest is history. You know the war which is still going on when everyone was thinking that the whole story will be over in in a few days or a few weeks. >> Still ongoing. All right. And let's move on to the last picture. This is you presenting your credentials to President Zilinski. >> This was in October 22, a day before our president visited Ukraine. A day before I presented my credentials to President Zilinski. Uh he looks uh uh differently now. I think I look differently as well. But uh I remember that meeting. This was the only time when I had a conversation with him face to face for half an hour or so. It was quite a pleasant conversation but again it was before the war. >> Well I again want to thank you Michael Bzky not just for coming here but for your service at a very crucial time and challenging period in Israel's history and Ukraine's history while serving and wartime in your host country when there's a war back at home. So, I want to thank you again for your service and for your time coming here tonight. We are going to have to leave it there. Thank you for uh tuning in today. Join us next week here at On the Record. You can find today's episode and all previous shows on YouTube and Spotify. Thank you for watching. [music] >> [music]