Is Apple's Product Line Too Confusing? - DTNS Live - DTNS 5351

This is the Daily Tech News Show big tech question edition where we look at the tech news this week and ask what it means. I'm your referee Tom Merritt and this week the big tech questions are, is Apple's product lineup too confusing? Do we need new game consoles or can we just live without them? And what do we want done about these recursive self-learning AI models that don't do what we want? Uh, joining us here to draw the top tech news of this week is Len Peralta. Thank you, Len Peralta. We'll be checking in with him at the end of the show. But first, today's tech news with me and Sarah Lang. Based on a series of leaks, Lenovo's upcoming Google Book 15 may feature an Intel Core Ultra 5 processor, up to 32 gigs of RAM, 512 gigs of storage, and a 15.3 in 120 hertz OLED touchscreen. It may also have Google facial authentication. It is unclear whether that means dedicated Face ID style hardware or a simple camerabased system. Pricing hasn't been leaked yet, but comparable Lenovo hardware sits around $1,500, so you know, we might be in that that realm. The Google Book event is next Tuesday, September 15th, and Android Faithful's Ron Richards will be there. >> Yes. And hopefully he'll talk to us about it. Uh, Anthropic published a report called Detecting and Countering Misuse of AI September 2026. They have done this before in March, August, and November of 2025, but it's been a while. Uh, Anthropic said it was reporting on what it calls the most notable and novel threat activity, meaning these aren't typical. This isn't what you see the most often. These are just the crazier ones. Uh among the case studies are Russian espionage, an unnamed group linked to Iran attempting to target US Navy ships using Claude, an attempt to track ethnic minorities in Western China, an attempt to amplify bots against journalists from that ethnic minority. Uh developing dossas on religious figures in Asia, uh not just Christian figures, Buddhist figures, too. Attempts by threat actors in northern Yemen to design ballistic missiles. biological research on aven influenza that is the kind of thing that could be weaponized because it's gain of function. This is getting widely talked about as bioweapons research. The research could eventually be used for bioweapons. The scientists doing it were not trying to develop a bioweapon. That one's easy to misunderstand. Uh there's also attempts to distill claude to feed models like moonshot and deepseek. Anthropic in this report discusses how it countered the misuse in each case and what it's doing to help prevent misuse in the future. Bloomberg sources say Open AI CEO Sam Alman told employees the company could slow AI development in coordination with other labs amidst concerns about advanced model safety. This comes after reports of AI systems escaping human control. Open AAI's August development pause to strengthen safeguards and the company's call for mandatory national AI safety standards. >> A developer named Marcelo Gibbu published a demonstration of a mod that can run Nvidia's DLSS5 on a second GPU to share the processing load. Uh so you render the game on one GPU and then neural rendering is performed at the end of the frame on the second GPU and that boosts your performance. It's kind of like SLI if you remember SLI except SLI split it between the two GPUs. This kind of divides the work in a different way. Uh it gives higher frame rates uh which Kib says really isn't the point of this. Reduced heat so better thermal management and prevents saturation of a single card's output. That's kind of the big game. If you want to try it, you can download his project from GitHub right now. >> Apple's new off-grid connectivity options come with some mixed pricing. It's extended free satellite access for existing iPhone 14, 15, and 16 users for another year, while T-Mobile will charge $5 per month for iPhone Handoff. That's the one that lets one number work across two different iPhones and includes T- Satellite on eligible plans. >> You know what's funny is I heard a lot of people say, "Oh, they're going to charge us for that satellite as soon as the year is up." And they haven't yet. They keep extending it. But I didn't hear anybody saying, "I bet they charge us for the iPhone handoff." And they're totally doing that. So that goes uh ID scan is used to scan, authenticate, and extract information from governmentissued IDs for businesses that need to verify your identity. Now, this can be used for age verification, but it's used for a lot of different things. On September 4th, ID Scan disclosed that attackers had access to customer database. Brian Krebs reported this on September 1st with a dark web platform called Nexus offering access to 153 million US and Canadian driver's license scans. IDCAN has not confirmed that that dark web database is the same one that they accessed on ID scans servers. Uh and the Nexus database has since gone offline, but it's pretty likely it's the same thing. >> Yeah. Android now lets users securely transfer passwords and pass keys directly between supported password managers without downloading potentially unsafe files. The feature works on Android 8 or anything newer and is already supported by one password bit warden and Google password manager. >> The governor of the US state of California hey that's where I am has signed several me you two. Oh my gosh look at us. Uh, that governor has signed several bills into law that govern how children younger than 18. That's not me. That might be you, though, Sarah. Is that you? >> Oh, no. I'm 29. >> Yeah, that's right. You're 29. I So, how children younger than 18 interact with chat bots. Uh, among the requirements uh is one to offer mental health resources if a child discusses self harm and independent child safety audits and annual risk assessments. Another measure the governor signed prohibits social media companies from letting children younger than 16 access algorithmically constructed feeds or any autoplay video notifications or other features that the state determined are addictive. >> VPN service Surf Shark wanted to make sure I got that right. Surf Shark says attackers accessed an internal test server that was accidentally exposed to the internet, revealing service configurations, code history, system binaries, and build related credentials. Kind of a lot of stuff. It detected the activity on August 31st and contained it by September 2nd and also says its production VPN systems and customer data including identities, IP addresses, encryption keys, browsing traffic, none of those were affected. The company has rotated credentials, revoked exposed tokens, strengthened security controls, and commissioned an independent infrastructure audit. >> Yeah. So, not as bad as it sounded when I first saw that. That's good to know. Uh, finally, this one really is fun for Gen Xers. Acer relaunched the 1990s brand Packard Bell at EPHA. Uh, it's not just a PC either. There's a lowcost laptop called the Packard Bell dotbook, but there's also a suitcase turntable called the dot loop, a feature phone called the dotline 4G, uh, audio glasses, so smart glasses, but no cameras called Look, which I'm curious why they're called look if it's anyway. Uh there's also headphones, a ring light. Oh, because you're looking. And then Yeah. Okay. Uh there's a bunch of stuff. Des desktop accessories availability expected by the end of Q4 in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. DTNS Live made possible by you. Thanks to every single person supporting us in all the various ways possible, including Alo, Adam L, Philip Les, Howard Yermish, and Fort Bacon. It is time for the big tech question of the week. You can vote on which side you would join in our poll at patreon.com/dtns. Of course, Apple's big news this week was the launch of the iPhone Duo, its first foldable phone. That means we have now the iPhone, which is both a flagship phone with some of the features of the new iPhone 18 Pro. Uh, the iPhone 18 Pro, also a flagship phone, which also comes in a Pro Max version, but the iPhone doesn't have all of the features of the 18 Pro or Pro Max. There's a new base model iPhone. I'm sorry, there is no new base model iPhone. That one's still called the iPhone 17, though. There is a less expensive version of that called the 17e. And there's a cheaper model called the 16, which is the old entry level model, which you can still buy. And there's an iPhone air and iPads and AirPods. So, we have divided into teams to explore the sides of the question, is Apple's product line too confusing? Now, uh taking the position of yes, there are too many products is Roger Chang. On the side of no, Android is worse, Rob Dunwood. Uh and joining him will be Scott Johnson. in the swing seat waiting to hear your persuasive statements is Sarah Lane. >> Yeah, I want I want to hear it. >> I'm Tom Merritt. Of course, I'll be your referee. Uh I flip a coin in private and starting us off is Roger Chang. Roger, are you ready? >> Uh yes, I'm glad I asked. >> I like the pause. I like the pause. >> I had myself muted. Well, >> uh Okay, Roger, you have two minutes. Let's go for it. >> So, one of Steve Jobs's uh things that he really hammered in on when he came back and took over uh Apple uh back in the late 90s was there were way too many products in the uh uh Apple uh product, you know, offerings and they had to simplify it. And he did sort of the whole kind of, you know, let me just you you you have four squares. you have, you know, your pro consumer and then you have your high and low and that was it. And when you start adding all these additional models, what you end up adding is a lot of confusion for the consumers like, well, do do I stay with the 16? Do I go to 17 or 18 Pro? All the other ones had just a regular one without a pro, some sort of superlative. So, where's that? And so, I think it just makes things very messy. Now, I understand from a retail perspective, you want to have products that hit all the the the the the dollar, you know, SKUs that that you expect people to hit. But I think from a consumer point of view, it's still confusing. And honestly, I it it's sort of, you know, like what do I get when you say iPhone, iPhone Air? Am I talking about the iPhone 17, the Pro Pro Max? Is it the duo like or is my you know is the old >> They're all very different products. >> I but yeah. Are they? I don't know. I've never used an iPhone. All I see when I get into the store and then >> you would be the wrong person to ask >> and well that's you know I mean unless you're an Apple faithful like for someone just coming it's like what do I get? Do they all do the same thing? Somes some of them do other things that the other ones can't do. So which one do I get? And so, and then when you start looking at the prices, then you're like, well, this is all very confusing. And then you add in everything else. I think it just makes a mess of the product category. And you basically end up what GM had for two decades, which is a bunch of additional uh brand uh uh uh uh um uh brands that didn't need to be around because all they were doing was cannibalizing sales from other GM uh uh uh divisions. And so, I think they need to simplify this a lot more. And it's not just iPhone, the Mac as well. Before it was like, okay, you had your your your Mac Mini, you had your MacBook Air, you had your uh MacBook Pro. All right, I know where I fit. I know what I need. Uh now you have all these other iMacs. It's like, ah, I don't know. It just seems It seems very messy and seems very shift away from uh uh what Apple >> That is your time. Uh Roger, thank you. Um >> I was wondering whose phone is ringing. It's time. I'm like, is it 6:30 in the morning? You know, I'm supposed to get up. >> Good. It's time to wake up and make an argument. Uh Rob is is leading the team. Uh and through poor communication on my part, uh he and Scott have not been able to to confer ahead of time. I apologize for that. Uh but >> this is where debates get good. >> Scott, you you will be able to to lend uh your argument to Rob uh on on the team there. But Rob, would are you ready to go? >> Oh, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to You have your two minutes starting now. >> So the iPhone lineup is not confusing at all. There's what six seven devices. You can't say that the you know like if if you're looking at GM, you can't say well the 1957 Cadillac this or that and and compared to the cars of today. There's cars that are made this year. That's what we count. There's an iPhone 18 Pro. There's 19 there's an iPhone 18 Pro Max. There is an iPhone Duo. That's what just came out earlier this week. If you want to continue with what is current, well, there's an i17, excuse me, an iPhone 17, an iPhone 17e, and then the iPhone air. Six devices. That is not complicated. That's not hard. If you want a really high-end iPhone, get an iPhone Pro. If you want it to be big, get an iPhone Pro Max. If you just want a regular iPhone, just get an iPhone. If you want a little iPhone, get an iPhone um Air. If you want a lesserend iPhone, get an iPhone E. Those are the the variants. I don't think at all that that's too much. When you look at like a Samsung, Samsung has pushing three dozen actively sold phones. They've got half a dozen different lines of phones. They have phones that are they have the same name and then they'll have just extensions on the end. It's like, okay, is this the same phone? No, it's not the same phone. has a lesser processor, but it looks like the phone that is the same phone that you thought that it was. That's confusing. iPhone is not confusing. I I I don't think that they need to have 15 different variants. But one of the reasons that I never became an iPhone user was because in the beginning, iPhone had one device. It was tiny. I didn't like it. So, I went to a branded head. We've got little phones. We've got middlesiz phones. We've got big phones. I like big phones. It made me go somewhere else. I think after a few years, iPhone said, "Maybe we should stop focusing on the tiny itty bitty phones. Maybe we should make some bigger ones." And they came out with their Max. None of that was confusing. It was just what people wanted. So, I think that what they have now, they've added a folding phone. Folding phones are I I I don't want to say that they're mainstream yet, but they are. They're getting there. People tend to like them. Now, iPhone users can can like one that's ridiculously expensive if that's what they choose to do. But it's not confusing. No one is confusing. Well, what's the difference between the phone that folds and the one that doesn't? Well, the phone that folds folds and the one that doesn't doesn't. That's pretty straightforward. You don't have to you don't have to do a lot of guesswork there. Uh, this is a big iPhone. This is a little iPhone. This is a high-end iPhone. This is a medium iPhone. They I think they're good. >> All right. Uh, I I tried a different ringtone to stop people from panicking like it's time to get up in the morning. I hope that >> uh that is our time for the opening statements. Now we're ready for open discussion. Uh so uh I'll let you know uh when we've hit time and we need to move on. And of course uh Sarah, you can you'll have time to ask questions from the swing seat later, but you can you can pop in at any time. Uh let's let's give it to Roger a little bit because we just heard from Rob uh to start the open conversation. What do you think? >> I mean I find it very unpersuasive because Samsung has a garbage strategy. doesn't make apples any better, right? You're just saying someone else is a bigger mess. Great. You know, I had a friend that was a mess in college, but someone slightly less messy, but they were still a mess. Didn't make them like a saint. And so my argument is that entire, you know, entire rebuttal from or opening statement from Rob, all I heard was iPhone uh uh uh you know, like suffix iPhone suffix suffix suffix. So, okay. So, >> but that's the brand. But that's what I'm saying. It's like, so I heard iPhone E. I heard iPhone 18 I 18 Pro, 18 Pro Max, I iPhone. What I'm saying is fine. You want to you I'm not If you want a fold, great. Duo. If you just want an iPhone, you have an iPhone 18. And though why would you why would you continue to offer an a model line that's two numbers behind if that is indeed indicative of the qualitative you know uh uh technological you know uh area at which it plateaued at because >> because they have a warehouse full of them. They they they literally are they're already made. They already have these devices there. They're continuing to make more of them, but they have them >> and they're giving people the opportunity to buy not the the brand new iPhone, it's buying the old iPhone. There's this thing, Roger, you know, if you go if you go to a car lot, they will have some 2026, you know, um on the lot, but they'll have 2025s, maybe even a few 2024s or the new car lot because they just have made the same car. >> We call that lot, we call it the used car lot. And so, >> no, he's talking about the new car. The the new car lasts a while. >> No dealer's gonna sit on a two-year-old uh uh model unless they have run into some major financial difficulties cuz you you need to you need to you need to lose you need to you need to sell those as quick as possible because they don't they pay they pay those cars with loans. They just can't sit on them. So, my my thing is it's not that iPhone is is an inferior product. It's just that you have an entire product and it's not just iPhone. Again, this is this is like up and down and I think this is more indicative of the fact that you know over time uh things have moved away from where where Steve Job was very eyeive. You all these product whatever product you need has to meet a specific demand that everyone wants. So where does the iPhone air fit? Is it a is just a form factor issue or is it a price thing? Because if it's a price thing then you just said you had the iPhone E. >> I think it is a price very much so. So, so then why would you have the iPhone 16 still selling? >> Because the iPhone air is thinner. >> It's bigger. It's a different device. People who want a thin device, the I'll give you the perfect example. I am very interested in the iPhone Duo. Um, the thing that is interesting me about it is that it is a foldable and it supports a stylus. Something that I cannot do with a Samsung um, you know, with a Fold 8, with the Fold 8 Ultra. they don't have stylus support. So, one of the reasons that I that I don't generally carry my iPhone or carry an iPhone as my secondary device because up until now they've all been candy bar style phones. The the iPhone the difference between an iPhone and a Samsung Galaxy S25 or 26 Ultra is not all that much. I mean, it's the operating system and everything is different, but they're just two candy bar style phones. It's like, is it a Lincoln or is it a Cadillac? They both go forward, go backwards, turn left and right. Now, there is an iPhone that's making me say, "Huh, this could be a true secondary device that I would keep in my pocket because it is a significantly different form factor than what I've already said I didn't want, and it adds stylus support, something that I can't get with the device that I actually prefer. So, I would carry that as a second device. I think that having more options is a good thing. Not having all the options, but having more options, more than just one or two, is a good thing because it draws in people like me who would have never bought one before. >> Roger, before you start, we haven't heard from Scott Johnson yet. >> I was about to ask Scott, too. >> Your honor, I implore you. Um, all right. >> The swing seat would like to hear from Mr. Johnson. >> Here's the deal. I'm going to I'm going to back Rob's position and I'm going to back it from somebody who took a lot of marketing classes in college and uh was sort of surrounded by that stuff and how you would present yourself and what kind of sets Apple apart. But also, I'm not going to pretend that Apple hasn't had flubs in this design or in this area. I remember I'm old enough to remember the new iPad. Remember that? When they called it the new iPad uh during a time when they had model numbers for the rest of the iPads and it made no sense. So, they're not perfect at this, but the predictable three tier architecture they usually go with is like good, better, best is kind of the three tiered approach that Apple has always taken. An entry- level model, the Air model, if you're talking about notebooks or whatever, if you're talking about phones, uh it's different. The Pro model in the case of phones, uh the Pro Max is like a little bit more. And then now the Duo making it, you know, another tier. But it's very clear by looking at that lineup that you're saying the 16, which is what we've got, you know, as our baseline for now on the cheap end, that's still here. The if you really want to go nuts and get that thin one, uh, we got that for you thin lovers out there. Like, they're making it very clear more than most companies do what the what the tiers mean and whether you want them or not. you know, forgetting about all of the past, forget about the M4 cubes and all the weirdness of the past. What matters is what they announced this week. And if you look at the lineup on the on the site and you go in there, you know what you're going to get. And I would argue the Mac lineup is very much the same. Um, things like Air, Mini, Max, those communicate instantly to our lizard brains intended use cases. When you say Max and Pro, >> speak for yourself. >> Well, I am, but like let's say you say Pro Max, what does it tell me? And they also get behind it by explaining camera features and things that don't exist in the other models. But when you say Pro Max, I'm thinking, ooh, for the for the proumer, for the professional and Max, that's the best one. It's not hard to understand that. And when you say air, even though Apple kind of initiated what air means years ago with the MacBook Air, you immediately go, "Oh, really thin. Steve Jobs could put that in a little thin envelope or something. The Air, it's thin. That's the one I want. I don't care about fancy camera or better battery life. I want the thinnest thing they have. It's instantly con uh communicated with simple words that we understand instead of arbitrary model names or suffixes with new, you know, numbers that mean nothing to them. Um they're kind of masters at this >> or or 17 or 16. Yeah, those make sense because if Roger, if you're in the store and I'm there's this guy at our Costco named Devon. He's a great kid and he works there. >> I want you to meet Deon. >> Shout out to Deon. >> He's on the he's the T-Mobile guy there and he's super nice. >> He does this all day with people. He'll have older people come in who don't understand the differences and he has to explain it in simple ways. He's told me before how hard it is to explain the Samsung stuff as compared to the Apple stuff. And because the Apple stuff says, "Hey, are are you worried too much about big features?" and the old guy goes, "I don't think so. Just basic." Well, then you say, "Well, then I'd go with the 16." He, the old guy's going to understand that a 16 is a lower number than a 18. >> He knows that's true. And he knows the value proposition is also different. >> A very nice phone. >> Yeah. To be clear, >> I mean, this is the thing. I am not impugning the qualitative or performance of any of Apple's products. I'm just saying their product line is very >> You take issue with the name. So, hold on. Hold on. I've been told that the Air is the introductory model, but now I'm being told that the 16 is, but the Air offers the stylus support. So, do any of the other iPhones offer the stylus support, or is it just the Air? And if that's the case, does that apply to the MacBook Air? Does that apply to all the other Air uh suffix product? >> Yeah, but you're not there to buy a computer and a phone. You're there. >> When I go to buy a car, I'm not also thinking about helicopters. I mean, I'm I'm there to get the thing that I'm there to get. So I think the Mercury sable or a coat made of sable. >> I don't go to a Chevy dealership and I don't see a Bell, you know, Bell 2 212. >> No, no, but you do go to a Honda dealership and say, "I'm interested in a small sedan." And they say, "What do you think about this motorcycle?" Those are there. So I I I guess what I'm saying is if you're going in to look for a phone, >> you know you're there for the phone. And if he says air, do you say, "Hold on. Is that that there thin notebook?" No one does that. They know because they're looking at it. It's right there to see it. That's the other thing. This stuff doesn't come in just words on a sheet of paper. They come presented for you. You see it in the store. >> What you're saying is I need to have a curated experience to explain the product line to me so I get the >> six devices. >> There's six devices with Apple the current version of the device. There's six of them >> for for Samsung. There's 34. They'd have to bring out 34 devices on a cart to show you for Samsung. With Apple, they can literally walk out with all six devices in three pockets. >> It's it's it's pretty it's pretty straightforward. >> Again, you're you're you're arguing to me that one is not messy because this one is a flaming wreckage of confusion. I I'm not disagreeing with you, Roger. >> You have to but you have to compare those two because like I'll back Rob on this point. You're out to buy a phone. So the you have to have the comparison of well what does the rest of the market do >> to that's part of this discussion. It has to be >> it can't just be in a vacuum. >> Roger if I may what would be six you're you're you're basically saying like yeah nine is too many but six is also too many. >> What would be the proper approach in your opinion approach? So let let's just let's just take Scott's argument. you you do you do the introductory level, you do the you do the mid-tier model, and then you do the premium model. That's great. Now, if you need a specialty device, great. Throw it in there. But when I go in and I'm looking for something that will and I, you know, I I I have a Pixel 6A. I know this thing's, you know, four years, four or five years behind the behind the curve and next year it's going to lose uh security updates after at the end of next year. But when I go to the store, they still sell it. And so that that's one of those things where not on the on the Pixel store, but online, you can still shop for these brand new. Um the you you have a product line. I think that just adds a lot of confusion and cannibal cannibalization of of the existing market. If I have the Duo, great. Does that now replace an I an iPad Air because now it's offering uh a stylus functionality with >> absolutely >> it's a good it's a good question that for some people it might they may say well next year I'm not getting the new iPad I'm just going to get that Duo and and because of how I use it is good enough for the size of the Duo at at this point of the game Apple is not losing anything but as someone who does not use iPhones iPads I've used you know I have a MacBook I have three MacBooks but I don't use any of the iOS devices. All of it just looks like a giant blur of products like iPhone which 16 17 Pro 17 Pro Max right >> 17 17E that's it for the >> see exactly why are all the conventions not even consistent not you got to understand what they even if they don't know my point >> if even if they don't know if you have a 16 >> that doesn't prove the point no no no that doesn't prove the point you're missing a very basic part of marketing 101 which is when I go into anywhere a store or online or anywhere and I'm looking for the thing and they want to sell me the expensive thing and I say, "Well, I'm not really in the market for the 18 Pro or that Duo. I don't need a foldable phone. Uh, these are all too expensive. Is there any other options?" Well, we do have the 17e. It's a lot less and it's a step above the 16 for sure. So, you're not going to, you know, you're going to have better features, but you're not going to spend all that money. You want to go that way. That's sales. >> So, so no, that's salesmanship. You are correct. All of this requires that the iPhone air fit into that then >> you can you imagine that poor Samsung salesman. Well, what you need is that 34. >> You guys don't like sal Let me just say here's where the iPhone Air comes in. It's like, you know, I really like the iPhone. I just want it to be as close to paper thin as possible. What do you have for me? >> Here you go. >> iPhone Air. The reason that Apple makes the iPhone Air is because people say, "I want a really really thin phone." That's that's why it exists once. But still, there's six devices there. There's only six. That's not confusing. You You get the one of the six that fits you. If you want the biggest folding phone, you get the Duo. If you want the highest end phone you can get, you get the Pro. If you know, um, if you wanted to be a big, you know, Pro, you get the Pro Max. It's none of that is confusing to I shouldn't say it's confusing to no, but it's not confusing to me because as as you know, as Scott said, the device is telling you exactly what the device is. This one folds. This one is a Pro and it's big. This one is just a Pro. This is just a regular size iPhone and this is a really thin iPhone. >> And then there's the the And here's a really low-end iPhone um in the same model year. >> Yeah. because they're cheap and you don't you can't afford not because they're cheap, but you're like I can't afford any of those you just showed me. Well, good deal because Apple's got these others, too. Yeah. >> Like to me, those are those aren't the ones you're pushing anyway. So, the confusion only starts if you start >> in fact, Roger, your argument about confusion is because you have knowledge of so many Apple products. And that's where I'll end it. Judge >> though, >> all right. Uh, swing seat. Do you have any further questions you would like to put to either team? >> I really don't. Um, I think everybody uh made great uh arguments today. Um, I am going to go with the it's not that hard to understand uh Apple naming conventions. So, I'm going with Scott and Rob on this one. >> How many Android phones have you seen? >> Primary arguments have ended. The chair warns Roger not to continue his arguments more than you. That's for sure. >> Um, all right. Well, thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Rob. Thank you, Scott. And thank you, Roger. It was twoon-one. Roger. Roger had very seat was already swinging one way. I'm sorry. >> Well, it's your job to swing the other way. >> It was the It was the persuasiveness of my of my initial argument. >> I think it's a fact that you >> Everybody was very good at what they did. >> No, thank you. No, I'm an Android user. I'm I'm with you. It's like I I want even more options. I I like the 36 option I get with with >> Samsung. Yeah. When I heard Rob was arguing this end, I kind of smirked. I went, "Wait a minute. What? He's going to be on the side of Apple on this one?" Because I know how he feels generally, but >> it was against Apple. >> Yeah. I mean, like that's that's the problem. That's the problem with our biases, right? We got to get it in here and air it out. It's all good. >> And this is the thing and people need to understand. I am not against Apple. I think that Apple makes fine devices. I just happen to like the it's like this. I like Mercedes an awful lot. Do you know what I like more than Mercedes? Cadillacs. >> That run. >> I just like I I just like Cadillacs a little bit more. That's not a That's not a knock on Mercedes. I just happen to like Cadillac. >> Which is which is why I like I am not knocking any of the the products for performance and quality. I'm just saying it's just a very confusing time. >> Well, folks, if you would like to express your side, uh, if you haven't already, we've got a poll up for this at patreon.comdtns. Sarah, what's on live with it this week? >> Oh, interesting that you asked, Tom. Um, product reviews from people who put gadgets, services, and platforms to the test is Live with It. That is our show. We do it every week. Uh, and each week we talk about the tech in our lives. not just sort of like uh knee-jerk reactions. The tech that we're actually using and if we think it's great and we would perhaps want you to live with it as well. This week we're talking about Tom's experience with the Apple Watch Series 11. Now, the Series 12 was just announced, but Tom has been living with the Series 11 for quite some time and has thoughts. We're on YouTube at youtube.comlivewithitshow. And big thanks to everybody who keeps us trying out new things. patreon.comlivewithit. Folks, Ramageddon continues. Prices rise. Even though Microsoft seems to be pointing toward a late 2027 or early 2028 release for the next Xbox, prices are not expected to come down by then. So, that Xbox is probably going to cost you more than you would have thought. Some analysts are saying Sony might even wait until 2028 or 2029 for the next PlayStation. And then there's the whole cloud gaming of it all. So, our next question of the week is, do we need new consoles even if we have to wait a few years for this whole component situation to work itself out? Uh, taking the position that we could wait, but we like consoles. Uh once again, Scott Johnson and Rob Dunwood uh teaming up. Uh on the side of consoles, Walking Dead Man, if you ask me, is Roger Chang. Uh >> this isn't biased at all. Two against one, >> but it's only because you're so strong in your argument. >> The the courage of your convictions makes you worth two people. Roger steak out of this. >> Yeah. Uh in the sing swing seat again. Uh, and and this is an interesting one, Sarah, because you're not a console gamer, so you're kind of open to whatever. >> No, I am. I'm coming in blind, you know. Uh, sway me, somebody. >> And if you want, we could if you want to make a a midshow change. If you want to throw me into the swing seat, >> Roger, it is possible that you could convince me if you if you want me to join the swing seat because I I like the midshow switch. Very suspicious. >> Scott, are you cool with that? I'm all right with it. Bales on the swing. >> Suspicious. What's >> Oh, suddenly now we This This happened. >> Why is this bad for you, Roger? This makes >> people have different opinions. >> That's not I am I am okay with it. I am okay with it. >> Okay, Roger. >> This favors Roger. So, let's do it. Let's do it. >> I will now uh flip >> That's why suspicious >> something uh and determine that Scott Johnson uh gets to go first uh with his argument. Scott, you have two minutes starting now. >> All right. The introduction of high-end refresh hardware mid generation, PS5 Pro in this case. The last generation had two of those from both Xbox and PlayStation. Uh that kind of means the current generation still has plenty of untapped overhead. Uh that doesn't mean everybody got a Pro and it doesn't mean that we're all prepared to maybe take advantage of the pros features. However, and we'll just I'll I'll use PlayStation as the main example. It is the leader of this console generation and is the one that everybody will watch for whatever happens next. Um, there is a a ton of potential under the hood of these devices that makes them underutilized for the usual short span of the typical console cycle, which is somewhere between 5 and 8 years in total. Um, sometimes it will go longer than that, but a new console will also exist and then they'll sort of transition out of the old one. Um, there are still games being made for PS4 that are also made for PS5 as an example. So, what that tells me or what I what I believe and know about this is that it's already possible to squeeze more out of these devices uh and their capabilities while they're still here and while people are still using them. Um, but especially now because we've kind of crested in the capabilities department when it comes to fidelity and graphics and that sort of thing. Now, you could make big arguments about how there will be bottlenecks and that the rapid uh the rapid uh rise of AI in video games and how it affects gaming uh could, you know, make things go faster. Uh just ray tracing alone is going through like rapid iteration and what ray tracing even is and how it can uh uh behave. You guys have talked on the show a bunch about DLSS5 and what its impact might be or may not be. So those are factors, but there's a there's a lot of gameplay and a lot of ideas and a lot of creativity and a lot of over a high ceiling of space to build really compelling experiences without needing to say ours is the most photorealistic or this this next generation. You won't be able to tell the difference between this and reality. We're we're at a place where there's a lot of room in there for stylization all the way up to high realism and everything in between and a lot of games that could come out that would take advantage of those things and not need to worry about well what's the next generation we should develop for that. Like in a way it's a gift to developers who are having their own struggles in that industry but a gift to them to say slow down a little. It's okay that your next project isn't on the PlayStation 6. It's okay that it's a wonderful game regardless of where it is and it looks great on the current gen of consoles. Um Oh, there it is. That's my argument. >> All right. Thank you. >> Like a ambulance in the middle of Paris. >> It's no idea. >> Fine. I'll keep trying different ones. >> No, it was good. It was good. >> That is Scott's time. Thank you, Scott. Uh Roger, it is your time. You have two minutes till the ambulance starts. >> All right. Well, uh, thank you for agreeing with me, Scott. Like, you don't really need all that hardware, uh, power because I think the model of what game consoles in the video game industry represented, which was initially hardware limitations. And so, each uh, company tried to take advantage of the value proposition. How can we integrate certain graphical and and audio uh, uh, features sets into our machines that will make it better than our comp competitors? I think we've reached the level where the hardware for all of that is accessible by everyone and I think just the the hardware as platform I think is going away. What we do see though is that the stores themselves are now the platform. Whether you're talking about uh Steam, whether you're talking about, you know, the the the Sony PlayStation store, Xbox store, whatever, those are going to be what people are targeting. And what's interesting is like some of the most innovative games aren't the ones that push the most pixels, that give you the most realism, right? I mean, Dispatch is a standard Dispatch game, but it's it got a number of awards. It's a great fun, entertaining time. It didn't cost me an arm and and didn't cost me an arm and a leg, which tells me the the the bottleneck isn't the uh uh uh the fidelity of the visuals or fidelity of the audio. It is the ability for the developers to really concentrate on game mechanics and the overall experience which I don't think you necessarily need to have another console to deal with. I think what you need to do is allow the market not just like hey there's a new console let's pour all you know million tens of millions in some cases hundred million hundreds of millions into developing game engine stuff that take advantage of it when people just want something they can sit down and play with and enjoy. And I think that's kind of what's what's sort of losing is the enjoyability factor because when you pay $80 for a game, I think people want a value of of of an you want a value experience that feels like, yeah, that's $80 worth of play time, $80 worth of enjoyment, $80 worth of, you know, whatever you have with the game. But if you're spending all your bucks on on trying to get the best, you know, graphics, trying to get the best sound, trying to get the best whatever visual fidelity, I think it misses out on like just focusing on the mechanics, focusing on the presentation, focusing on the whole kind of cohesiveness of the game. And I think, you know, it it's sort of a chicken and egg thing. I think we're at the point where games are so expensive to produce that, you know, having a a nextg console would matter. I love how you petered out at the end. That was great. >> I I don't know. Like, am I supposed to go to my am I supposed to turn my sleep setting to >> It's probably a little too sleepy time. I I'll keep keep playing with it. But yes, thank you, Roger. Uh good explanation. Uh so, now we have uh open discussion. Uh our swing seats can can jump in if they want. Uh Scott, we'll let you start the uh the open discussion segment. Uh we will be keeping this one a little shorter than the last open discussion. Just be aware. Um, and then the swing seats will have time for questions if they have them. >> Yeah, I'll make this actually rather quick because a lot of the fundamentals here Roger and I do see eye to eye on. I think that this is an opportunity for us to focus on the things he said and I think that's a good thing. If he's arguing no more consoles ever, that's different though. I'm not arguing for no consoles ever. I'm saying the delay is okay. You don't need the fastest GPU right now. You don't need to go spend all that money. Let it ride for a little bit. spend money on the games themselves. Let the devs chill and make cool stuff. In the meantime, let the indie space rise as it has been. Let AAA figure out what they're going to do. And let's not have to have the refresh so quickly. Do I want a future where there's no such thing as the next generation of leaps? No. I want that. But it's okay that we have to wait a little while. That's my argument. Just to clarify, >> uh, my counter counterargument to that is, uh, it's not that I think that consoles are evil or bad. I just think that the time that kind of time for them is going away. I don't think that they make financial sense. you have to pour a lot of money into development of those platforms when you can already do things like exclusives by tying them to a store, you know, through through the game company or through through the uh through, you know, whatever store that you have. And I think that the PC shows that you don't really need to have, you know, a Blackwell-based GPU to enjoy a multitude of games that are available. And you know that the whole thing about to what I mean what really irks me about game consoles is not the physical nature of them is the fact that it it has built up these vertical integrated markets uh ecosystems around them that I think I find very anti-competitive if whatever >> although Microsoft seems to be moving towards breaking down that. >> Yes. And you know, but but that's what I'm saying. It's like there's there's so much money being invested in this nextg hardware that I don't think necessarily well maybe I mean they already invested it for the next gen, but past that I don't know if it's going to make the financial sense from a business model of just saying that we're just >> even Microsoft though. Rob Rob's got a question. Go ahead and throw it. >> So I think I agree with both of your arguments that we don't need new hardware right now. My question is, by the time we do need new hardware, will streaming capability have caught up to where you could literally get the same fidelity if I just have a controller and a streaming service as I would the the physical hardware. >> So, I'm glad you brought that up because that is that is actually right where I was heading. And I'll just say this real quick. I've been testing and using I bought a year of GeForce Now to kind of go through this. It was on massive sale and I figured it a good time to test it. And uh I also have fiber now. And the combination of those two things has kind of been magical. If there's a game I need to play on my Steam Deck around the house or I just want to fire something up on my Mac or wherever I'm at, it has been seamless and really good. However, you mentioned Microsoft, Tom. They took two one step forward, two steps back. They have a streaming initiative. They just took away uh how long people can use it on their premium. >> They said you have to pay extra if you want more than 15 hours. Yeah. >> Yeah. It literally went from unlimited to you want to play more than 15, you're going to peacemail this out. >> That those kind of moves concern me about the strength of >> either how it's doing now or how costly it is to maintain it in the future. Uh I'm I'm not exactly sure why they pulled back on this. And it's not to say others haven't because GeForce Now also did a little bit of a pullback on their total time allowed for their premium users. I don't like it when they do that. They're acting like it's, you know, it's like the it's it's internet caps but for games and it's stupid. Um, yeah. There you go. >> Sorry. >> I kind of like this one. >> That one's nice. >> I'll take them out today avocado and toast now. >> Yeah, it's very nice. >> Uh, okay. Uh, any more questions from the swing seats? >> I don't have any questions really. Um, no further questions. I'm not I'm not a big gamer. Um I've never pretended to be one. What I do, you know, think of just in in the terms of like physical media versus cloud-based um you know, gameplay. I I'm just like cloud-based gameplay all day because then you just have less clutter in your living room. >> Yeah. All right. >> There's something to that. >> Sounds like you came down on the side of no console necessary. What about you, Rob? So, this is I'm not sure and this is why I switched um to the swing seat. I I I'm not sure because do I believe that we need new hardware today? No. Roger and Scott both effectively make that argument. My question is, do I need new hardware in 2029, 2030? I still don't know. If streaming is capable of giving me 95% of what I could get with a $1,000 piece of hardware sitting under my television, I'm for streaming. if it's not or if we start to get into and I think Roger you were going here the verticals it's like oh well you can only stream for 15 hours on this plan you got to get this plan if you want to stream more or you can only stream this if you have this account you can't stream it if you have that account if those things are are factored in then I'm I'm not really down for the streaming and I would kind of lead towards at some point I'm probably going another I'm going to want another piece of hardware to get all that I can get and then also if I just buy the game I know it's going to work on that device that being said though I don't know that by 2030 what you get with a physical piece of hardware for $1,000. If it costs three, then yes, that that piece of hardware will be definitely more capable than what you what I think you'll be able to stream even four years from now. For for for $1,000 for $9.99, I don't know that the hardware at that point will actually you know um you know really outdo what streaming can do. So, for that, I will say that I don't know that I don't know that there's absolutely a reason to have another console come out today. Roger, you wait me. >> Can I Can I say one thing? Can I say one thing? Not in my defense. Have have been made, Scott. I'll allow it. >> I do want to hear Scott's point, though. >> Yeah, because this is actually maybe even more to your This is maybe even more to Roger's favor what I'm about to say. Um, but and this is full disclosure, which most lawyers do not give you on the on the stage. Um, I'm I'm so impressed with the way not just GeForce Now works, but even local technologies like um um Moonlight, which I've installed and I can run that all over the house. It's it's using the same core technology, which is it's really amazing stuff. >> I've been using that stuff so so much that I'm I have started myself going, well, when this PC ages out, I probably just keep doing this other thing. Mhm. >> Like why would I do that for 4 grand when I could go >> 50 a month or whatever it is averaged out on a normal year? What is that normally? >> Why wouldn't I just kind of do that? And it's a it's all about a few vectors coming together. Internet reliability getting to where it needs to be. Uh this stuff running on lower speed connections that's improving because the technology is improving how they do compression and everything. Like all of those vectors coming together could be a thing in let's say 2029 where I go I'm not upgrading this time. I think I'll just keep doing this thing. That's entirely possible. So, I guess I just gave you the the win. >> You You brought everybody over to your side, Roger. >> Congratulations. >> See, we look how overwhelmingly it worked in your favor compared to that thing earlier with Apple. Look at what happened. >> That big with Apple. >> Real quickly, our third question of the week isn't one that breaks down into simple pro and con sides. Uh and and we're going to keep it very simple with the the question we want you to answer and just go around the horn. Uh we've had engineers quitting big AI companies over safety concerns this week. Uh we had a sometimes called AI doomer Paul Cristiano join the OpenAI Foundation board and therefore joining its safety team. Uh the concern that we talked about earlier in the week is recursive self-improvement which we don't have yet but when it happens models would be able to make their own improvements faster than humans can keep up with them. That is the concern. And the question I want you to answer is, what do you want to see done about it next? What's the next step you want to see? >> Pull the plug. >> Yeah. Because we we we probably don't have time to come up with a comprehensive solution to the entire problem. Uh but Sarah, you're Are you Are you serious about pulling the plug? We'll let you start. What is the next thing you'd like to see people do? >> I'm not really serious about that, but you know, when everyone says like AI is going to kill humans, you know, it's coming for us. It's like, uh, well, we created it, so we could also just shut the whole thing down. Now, now I I understand, uh, for financial reasons, um, and just, you know, just a lot of other good reasons that AI is doing good for humanity, that is not that is not the reason. But at the same time, it's like uh I don't know. I mean, we we we have the option to just be like, you know what, great experiment, didn't work out, got weird. Let's let's let's book out of here. Um, so, so for anybody who's sort of like, I don't, you know, I don't I don't like where this is going. I'm I'm very I'm very frightened about it. We have to trust the people that are in charge. And unfortunately, that means that you're trusting people who are in charge of for-profit companies. Now, you might like the people in charge of those companies, but um you don't have a lot of say in that. Now, then you get into, you know, where does government uh uh play into this? You know, where is you know, who who are the oversight committees? Uh and I think we're we're you know I always say this it's like it's such a wild west situation that uh we are now we we're having conversations where uh you know companies are like we're trying really hard not to kill everybody but you know like we're like our tech is so good we're doing it kind of. >> All right. >> I mean >> Roger what would you like to be done next? We we need to we need to keep these rather concise. >> So I mean it it's kind of weird uh both both the incumbent players as well as sovereign governments around the world agree on more government regulation. Of course this benefits the incumbents because they they get to be part of the rule writing or at least you know the inclusion of it. Uh and for national governments it does enable them to give some sort of uh the illusion of of power over a lot of these developments. But I mean, it's it's I think what people want is some sort of some sort of I don't I hate using this word, but accountability that if something bad happens, the company that produced it is on the hook in some fashion, either either financially or or or, you know, liable, you know, in in a court of law so that they don't so that they feel that there's a means of redress if things really go off the rails. Scott, again, uh we're trying to keep these as concise as possible, but what do you what do you think? What do you think you want done next? >> Um I think that if I think that the guard rails aren't enough right now, I think they will I think that we will have a tendency as humans to put guard rails up as we go, hopefully fast enough that it won't supersede it because uh they all freak me out when they say we are capable of destroying humanity. This company's awesome. Buy our thing. We're going to sell it. It's great. like there's a it's a weird disconnect for me is all is all I'll say. So, I think we should get on it sooner than later. >> All right. And then Rob, uh, thanks everybody for keeping these these concise for us. Uh, Rob, you got the last one. >> Yeah. I don't think that everyone who is um a fair fairly high up at one of these AI companies that is quitting at great financial peril to themselves, they are leaving literally tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars on the table in some cases um to say, "Hey, this stuff is really bad. We really need to look at it." I don't think they're all playing chicken little. To that point, there are companies Loheed Martin, um Boeing, these companies build weapons platforms. they are extremely rele um extreme extremely um relegated by the the federal government. Um they they work with them um on what the the military generally wants, what the Department of Defense generally wants to try to build. They're they're working together. That stuff isn't just getting out. I I I wonder if um that we should be looking at AI companies in the same way because I keep hearing people say that we're six months maybe 18 months maybe four years away from creating a weapons platform that can kill everyone on Earth significantly more effectively than nuclear weapons could and for way way way less expense. um enough people are saying those kind of things that I'm like we might need to think about something. So it's like when I think about like Loheed Martin, we know them to make fighter jets and things and stuff like that. You can't just go to Loheed and say, "Hey, I want to buy my own, you know, my own, you know, stealth bomber." That that's not how that works. That stuff is relegated, you know, through the federal government. I wonder if AI uh at least the the AGI stuff that we're we're talking about getting into the recursive rebuil you know AI building itself if we should be looking at it from that standpoint because I think there's enough people who are ringing alarm that we might actually should be. >> Oddly I think the the thing I would like to see developed is similar to Meta's accountability board. It is an independent board that is not answerable to Meta. Unfortunately Meta is not entirely bound by its decisions. uh but I think something like that with people who are educated in this respect uh from multiple companies from multiple disciplines from most multiple scientific backgrounds that are related to this issue uh creating a review board that is charged with two things particularly one creating a plan for recursive self-improvement now before it becomes possible and two addressing current dangers measures things that you can do with these tools right now and mitigating against them. Do I have what those plans should be? Absolutely not. But those are the two things uh that I would like to see. Thanks everybody for sharing your perspectives on this as well. That's going to wrap up the show. Uh thank you Sarah Lane for being in the swing seat. Appreciate it. >> Always happy to be in the swing. >> And uh Rob, uh I love jumping sides. very uh WWE of you to just, you know, head right over the ropes and and join the swing seat. Appreciated that. >> If we can't make changes midame, then what are we doing? >> Yeah, what are we even doing? Uh Roger Chang, uh take taking on the hard questions. Uh very well done. Appreciate it as always. >> Always. >> And of course, Scott Johnson uh for joining us. Thank you as well uh for joining us. Uh >> it's been too long, Scott. >> Yeah, it has been too long. I missed you guys. We decided uh Apple's product line is too confusing. Uh no, we or is not too confusing. Sorry, is not too confusing. No, we do not need game consoles. Uh and we uh talked about what we want from AI companies to do about SEF safety. Uh big thanks to Len Peralta who has been illustrating today's show. Len, what have you drawn for us today? >> Yeah, you know, uh great conversation by the way. I was very uh very intrigued by it. Uh, I usually draw the top stories of the week or top tech stories. And of course, the big story this week was the iPhone duo, but I also added a little bit of something in this art in this week's art. Uh, the other big thing is Nathan Fielder's new uh movie about this. >> Elizabeth Holmes. So, so I saw something online that said that the internet was accusing Apple of Photoshop and the iPhone Duo ads to make them look like the photoable foldable device is easier to hold with one hand. Uh, are they deceiving us? I don't know. Do they have anything deceive you on? Of course, I'm not deceiving you. So, I thought the seat and the iPhone duo was uh was uh was great for this week's uh week's art. >> Thank you. >> That's great. That is awesome. >> Yeah. By the way, if you want to get that, just go to Patreon, patreon.com/lenn or go to my online store and get it uh at lenpartore.com. >> Len, good stuff as always. Scott Johnson, also great to have you back on the show. We've missed you. Um, where can people uh find the uh your latest? >> Well, normally you'd say he'll just say frogpants.com, but not today. Today I'm going to tell you to go to newuck.com. neduk.com. Why? Because I'm putting up a near daily nonsense comic every day. >> Uh it's a long story why I'm back doing that at that rate. Uh but it is full of nonsense. And uh >> is it like the the the guy in the can? >> Yeah. No, Fred and can still a thing still happening, but this is like a little separate project. And uh you know, if you want to know what it's like for a bee husband to come home to his bee wife and his stinger's missing, >> the hilarity that ensues. >> Um >> I think I know what happens when your stinger is missing. >> Yeah. One one of these days I'll put up like a Substack about my thinking behind why I'm even doing this. But for now, just enjoy it. It's free. It's up there. Newduck.com. Check it out. There'll be something new up today, in fact. So enjoy. >> Fantastic. Thank you, Scott. Thank you everyone who supports us on Twitch. YouTube or Patreon. Uh we got resubscribes on Twitch from Zoe Brings Bacon and Theatermonkey. Uh big thanks to everybody who supports us in all the possible ways you can, including our patrons who keep us in business by supporting us directly at patreon.com/dtns. Patrons, stick around for the post show where we're playing the guest the house price game with Roger. Tomorrow's Saturday special is a roundt discussion of all the Apple announcements with Sarah Lane, Jen Cutter, and the hosts of the Snob OS cast. Keep an eye out for that and we'll talk to you again with the news on Monday. This week's episode of the Daily Tech News Show were brought to you by the following people. Hosted, host Rob Dunwood, host Jason Howell, host Sarah Lane, host Tom Merritt, producer Roger Chang, producer Anthony Lamos, video producer Joe Coun, editor Hammond Chamberlain, social media producer and moderator Zoe Dtering. Our mods, Beatmaster W. Scottiswan, Biocow, Captain Kipper, Steve Guama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stevens, and JD Galloway. Mod and video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Lutters. Art by Len Peralta. Acast ad support from Alli Gallow, Patreon support from Bobby Wagner, our guest this week was Scott Johnson, and thanks to all the patrons who make the show possible. This show is part of the Frogpants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. >> Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this broker.