Introduction to Teresa of Avila and The Devil in the Castle

get to the yard. Then my priest comes and he's a young priest and I said, "Father, would you mind? Would you be offended if I told you how to pray?" He said, "I would not." I said, "I okay, I want you to say this. In the name of Jesus, priest said, in the name of Jesus, by the power and authority of my priesthood, by the power and authority of my priesthood, I command this bleeding in your brain to stop." And guess what? The greatest trick [music] the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. >> I didn't know this was a fight. That's why you're losing. Today we are beginning either to domesticate the devil or else to deny him. He is most [music] powerful when he is denied. >> Welcome to the devil's in the details. The devil may be in the details, but God is on the throne. >> Amen. >> We're starting a new series now that we have finished spiritual uh warfare and discernment of spirits. We're going to start on The Devil in the Castle. Another book that you wrote. >> I think it's the best book that you've written out of all the ones that >> Why is that? >> Um there's so much applicable knowledge in this book that I find myself if I'm not referencing something from Ignatian Discernment of Spirits, I'm referencing something from this. >> Uh there's a lot of deeper information. And I think, you know, that the disc the discernment of spirits, as we've said, is so important for for people to know, [clears throat] >> but I think that this book and the the wisdom from Terresa Babala adds another layer to all of that. >> Yeah. >> Um, you know, one of my favorite stories is the guy who, and we'll get into it, but the guy who uh wanted to become a missionary or something like that, >> and all the while his home life is a mess. And uh what Teresa or what you're explaining through Teresa is essentially, you know, the devil is going to tempt you to things that may be objectively good but are not what God wants you to do. >> Latter stage, >> right? So things like that I think are so important for people to to know. >> So I'm I'm actually really pleased that we're going to be going through this book. But I guess >> having written this came out after spiritual warfare and spirits, right? >> So what prompted you to write this one? Well, so I you know my journey into the church, I was in seminary, Anglican seminarian when I entered into RCIA secretly by myself, you know, um I was single at the time and discerning, you know, what the Lord was doing with my life or whatever. And and uh I have always been intrigued. years prior to that, I had encountered Terresa Vavala's writings and started to read them and I'm reading them as I'm going through RCIA and going, "Wow, this woman knows Jesus in a really powerful, profound way." And in a way that was very attractive to me because she has these exalted experiences but she's the way she speaks of herself is I get the way I would speak of myself which is a very broken >> you know person she uses phrases like worm and or words like worm and you know >> but at the same time also saying how beautiful the soul is to God. So just I it just felt true. You know, it kind of reminds me although I didn't know it at the time, Teresa Benedicta of the cross who was Edith Stein who was a who was a brilliant Jewish philosopher atheist that then converted to Catholicism. The way she converted was reading through the interior castle. >> Didn't she read it all in a night >> and then I don't know how long it was but in the end she said this is true. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so I had that same experience with with reading with Teresa. So I'm converting to the into the Catholic Church and it also helped me to understand some of my own experiences and I don't mean in any way to say like I was having these you exalted mystical I was having some mystical experience but not I never thought oh I'm like her or I'm at this you know oh I'm I'm a walking saint you I knew I wasn't, but I obviously was reading someone who knew what she was talking about. So, that was the beginning of my journey with her. Uh, and then I've just never stopped. So, it there's a a handful of authors that I read and reread over and over and over again. Trace of Avala, John of the Cross, Jean Pierre de Kusad, you know, the uh Lori, you know, now a staple. But the in terms of the last study we did, which was discernment of spirits, the thing about Ignatius is that he's super practical. The the Terresa of Babel and John of the Cross are both deeper water in terms of discernment, in terms of detail. So the you know you I think people should enter in through daily mental prayer ignation discernment and then to grow to go deeper you go Teresa of Avala John of the cross in that order in my opinion at least in terms of this book. Uh so to keep complete my answer to your question, part of the part of my own struggle, one is I experienced the demonic as a kid and and then as a young adult, as an adult, as a convert, and then had to go through deliverance and all of that. And um so I've been accused of over focus on the devil. >> But I'm reading through her writings. I'm reading through John of the Cross and I don't have there's this thing that moderns have that's I think an incredibly defective aspect of our culture which is if it's new it's it's wise and good and if it's old it's less good. I just don't have that. And and especi And nobody who studies history has that, by the way, right? Like really studies history. You know, I've been on, you know, I've been on the coast of Israel where King Herod 2,000 years ago poured concrete in the ocean. >> Oh, yeah. I've seen it. It's crazy. and just these amazing feats of architecture and aqueducts and and you know you just you you're an ignoramus of history if you if you have this fundamental disposition that we're way smarter than they ever were and they were superstitious. Certainly there is superstition among you know tribal peoples and you know people who are isolated from technology and and certainly science of course is is progressed and things like that. Listen, I if I was born in any other era, I'd have been dead as a child and >> 25 times since then because of medical advances. >> Well, it reminds me that there's that old phrase, those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it, right? You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's ignorance. Yes. It's exactly. So, so I've been accused of overly focusing on the devil and but but I'm reading through Teresa and I I just decided one time I'm going to go I'm going to go well I'm just going to highlight every in a digital copy every time she mentions a demonic strat, you know, tactics of the enemy or whatever. And uh what struck me is she is dead consistent all the way through her book at each stage certain certain ways that she understands the interior life. And then I realized there's never been a book at least there's not one in English. I'm pretty sure there's never been one written on her view of spiritual warfare. And of course then it would be of course also John of the cross's view of spiritual warfare because they they were both the co-reformers of the Carmelites. And then I thought, you know, this would be a good test for me. She's a doctor of the church. He's a doctor. I read her through him, him through her. You know, it's kind of a a dual thing. And just a test, am I do I do I am I imbalanced? Right? And the conclusion I came to is no. Uh that their worldview very consistent with scripture because I've done a lot of scripture study and and of course the series we just finished on discernment of spirits which I know isn't all rolled out yet but you know we started with scripture and that's where I started with my own freedom. And so they're they're consistent with scripture. You know if if they overemphasize the devil then so does Jesus. you know, >> right? >> Um, but I I and I will also say I despise and find repugnant at the deepest levels, you know, uh, views like I I've heard one head of a a particular seminary or Catholic college Catholic in quotes, um, Father Ron Rollheiser. I'm just going to say his name because I I I think that some of what he writes is incredibly destructive and >> we have articles on that on spiritual direction.com. So there's it's this isn't I'm just I'm jumping in to say you're not making a claim that isn't backed up by evidence. It's all on the website. >> Yeah. just, you know, uh, and I've heard the head of the Jesuit order who got a little stung for it under Francis >> saying that, well, the devil is a psychological construct. And it's like, okay, then then Jesus is making stuff up in the desert when he's being tempted. And, you know, >> well, and we talked about this on the on is the devil under every rock episode. I think we hammered it pretty hard, but I I think I don't know if I said this then, but I'll say it now. I find that the people who undermine the reality of spiritual warfare that is clearly listed in scripture, I mean the majority, maybe not majority is probably too strong of a word, but a significant portion of what Jesus did, you know, and what he combed while he was on this earth. When you undermine that, it's and and you tell people, you know, the devil is a psychological construct or you talk too much about the enemy, >> it's more indicative of them than it is of >> Oh, yeah. >> us. You know what I mean? And it's and >> there is a proper balance. And I think we've covered that pretty well where obviously we don't ever want to be sensational. We don't ever want to >> um give the enemy more power than he's due. >> But there's also the balance portion is he's real. >> Yeah. Scripture makes it clear. It's a battle. You need to understand the enemy so you can combat it. So you can, >> you know, live your life. >> So >> it's just part of the advancing of the kingdom of God, >> right? >> Yeah. We're on the same page. I mean, and I, you know, it's unfortunate, but I know I know two bishops, one super prominent that everyone would know who I'm talking about, another one less. We're just deathly afraid of the devil. >> Yeah. >> And just quaking their boots over it. Um, and it's like you, you know, you have authority and power to vanquish him. >> Yeah. >> You know, because of who you are and your position. I know priests the same way. And I I just want to reverse that trend and say, "No, this is what the church teaches. maybe you never, you know, were were privy to it in seminary or didn't get the formation or whatever, but um >> and it's not that big of a deal, which may sound like it's downplaying it a little bit, but >> you know, the sacraments are are your strength and your power. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? And go ahead. >> No, I I just thought of an analogy when you were saying it's not that big of a deal. >> So So can you be possessed? Can it ruin your life? Can it be horrifying? Yeah, we've dealt I've dealt with all of that. Um >> you and in terms of when you assisted in exorcisms, you've seen it firsthand. You've never been possessed. >> No. No. >> Yeah. I just want to make that clear. >> Um is it are they super dangerous? Yes. But it's sort of like we we have the 64 acre retreat center. This is where the radio center is. Radio studio is we're right now on the Our Lady of Mount Carmel uh retreat center. And there are poisonous snakes and you know there's poison ivy and poison oak. There's like three things that can get you out here. >> I I don't want to be pedantic, but if I don't say venomous, I know someone in the comment is going to comment section is going to they're not poisonous, they're venomous. [laughter] People want I'm just going to squash that before. >> Right. So, Right. Thank you. So, I So, so what do I do when I go into areas that I know they're likely going to be? I put on snake boots. >> Yeah. And I, you know, and I I have general understanding of the risks and you just and you just don't but the people who get bit and die are the ones who >> don't want to deal with the fact that it really exists, you know, and that >> or or they're blind to it. You know, it's like we have wood piles, we have lumber piles, we have all sorts of stuff. >> And whenever I'm working with someone, I mention, hey, if I was a snake, I'd be hiding it. >> Or they're in black widows is another thing. And so it's it's literally just the same thing with spiritual warfare. >> That's probably where the enemy is over there. I should be a little bit more cautious >> when you go near that. >> And when you're dealing with it, if he doesn't pop up, fantastic. Praise God. >> But it's it's not I've always equated demons to mosquitoes. It's like, yeah, they can carry the Westnile virus. You can get really really sick. Yeah. >> You know, or ticks, you can get Lyme disease, >> but you just kind of flick them off and swan them away. It's not It's not >> Yeah. that deep. It's it's a tough thing analogously to deal with because yes, they're more dangerous analogously. I think a better analogy is like a you know a rattler or something which can actually kill you >> but uh but in Christ in Jesus we have the capacity to deal with them. Now I wanted to say this at the beginning well you know I want to go back to your question and finish that and then I want to talk about authority a little bit. Um, so when I was writing it, I was asking the question, do I talk about it too much? And what I've discerned, of course, around in the early 19th century, because of scientism, which I would call the worship of science, >> uh, you know, exorcism went away and, you know, >> yeah, we've we've talked about that. >> We've talked about all that. So the what I'm trying to do now I'm convinced that part of our mission is to reverse the imbalance not to overfocus on it which which is one of the reasons for the show as well you know uh I do not we do not participate we have distanced ourselves from deliverance ministry >> and the reason we have is because we we just because the the abuses that that you and the bad and the false teaching. And I just even though there are people who I love who are and I won't name them, but they're part of our work in some way, we're connected, we promote their work, we do collaborations, whatever, disagree with me. I don't believe that that just because the New Testament says uh- which doesn't by the way designate authority or whatever you know that you'll know them by these by these uh fruits by these fruits they'll cast out demons you know do all of this I believe that if that you before you were 18 came to me and said dad I had a bad nightmare I can speak directly to a demon related to your struggle. Yesterday, Stephanie had a rough day and I and she asked me to pray for her and I can do that for her. But outside of those kind of very limited constructs of authority, I just don't believe in lay people running around doing that kind of stuff. >> Yeah. So, you're talking about for those who who may not be um who may have heard that and are a little confused, you're talking about realms of authority. Now, I would think that most people who listen to the show are probably familiar with that, but just in case, judging by some of the YouTube comments we've got, there are there are limits to authority. I think that the best book that's been written on that thus far is Dominion by Father Ripiger. And he he he approaches this timistically >> and through scripture and talks about where authority comes from, its limitations. And so as you're describing the story, you know, uh for men, the general rule is uh for for men, as soon as they turn 18, the parental authority ends. For women, uh as soon as they are married or enter the convent, that parental authority ends. Um, for husbands and wives, there's authority over one another. >> Brothers and sisters, >> brothers and sisters, which I think people are a little surprised by, but that's listed in Dominion. I think the way that he worded it was we haven't we as in uh exorcist um what what's the phrase? We've used this phrase before. It's the common consensus of exorcist or something like that. >> Uh have not seen any issues for a brother praying for a sister, sister praying for a brother >> in a direct way. and then even at a certain point uh uh children for their parents at a certain point. >> All that being said, there's an incredible amount of nuance. >> Whenever I've talked to people about this, I'm I'm usually saying, you know, how bad is the situation? >> Yeah. >> Are you in a state of grace, you know, because >> I I think that's isn't mentioned enough. If you're not in a state of grace, >> then you're really kicking a hornets's nest without a lot of protection and you should be careful there. That's my caution. That's not I'm not repeating what they've said, but it just makes sense. >> Yeah. >> So, anyway, that's what you're talking about. Um, and >> bringing that all back to this, >> unless you did you have more that you wanted to go down? >> No, I you're coming back to the right. I just I I want to lay a groundwork of our approach. I believe we have authority, >> right? >> But it's but it's limited. I I'm very much I have seen experienced the power of the priesthood. >> Right. >> Everything we do very very rooted in the priesthood. And nothing we do and this is this is the test for me. This is kind of a recent clarity for me. If what I do requires a bishop's permission, I'm now then [clears throat] I'm then I'm stepping into a realm where I need to be like really careful, >> right? Right. But just living out the Christian faith, which is what we're going to talk about in this text, in terms of spiritual warfare in terms of the the graces or authority of your baptism as a Christian, that's the realm of this book. >> Yeah. >> And if and if you want and she wrote well, she wrote the interior castle to help the soul understand what it means to progress to union with God. In that context there, she revealed here's how the enemy works at this stage. Here's what you can do about it. Here's how the enemy works at this stage. Here's what you can do about it. And I've extracted that out. But I wanted to lay the groundwork to say our approach is I would say very bold, unafraid, clear, but not out of but very deeply rooted in the priesthood and authority in the sense that you can be bold and strong and clear and you can help people to get free without you and me running around going, going in the name of J, you know, I cast you, I cast out the demon of this and I cast out the demon of that. You know, Stephanie tells this great story uh that I think is so powerful and it and it came I think it came through someone who's al also in exorcism ministry but where they went to this group who is very well known for uh deliverance ministry and and these are good folks by the way. And um they ended up having the lead guy, whoever it was who was teaching and meeting with this one person about getting free and and so they spent a good like 30 minutes and he's just casting this out and casting that out in Jesus name. >> Oh yeah, this story. Yeah, this is [laughter] >> Yeah, this is nuts, >> right? And then and then he has the person say, "Okay, close your eyes and tell me what you see now, like where how are you feeling?" And and the person said, "I just saw essentially the face of a demon say, "By what authority?" >> Mhm. >> And the dude got up and left and said, "We're done." >> Yeah. You know, that's see this is the realm why I don't ever want to why would I ever want to get near that if if there needs to be casting out. >> Why wouldn't I rely on a priest for that, right? >> I mean, who they have full authority to do that? And they I mean, and unless the person's possessed, they don't need authority from the bishop. If they're possessed and they're going to use the right, then that's a place where they get the bishop's approval. And that's exactly right. Outside of that, you know, I want to I want to teach about what we can do by virtue of our baptism properly in authority without getting weird without without, >> you know, I I don't walk around areas that I know water moccasins like, which is like really covered water, marshy stuff without snake boots. What kind of idiot does that, right? >> I have the same attitude about spiritual warfare, right? It's like why would I walk around areas where I know the priest is fully equipped and capable and I believe in the priesthood and I believe in the authority of our bishops and I believe in apostolic succession all of that. Why would I Why would I Why would I go messing in those areas, >> right? >> When I've got very I've got enough armor for my own authority, but why would I do that when if the thing is big and bad enough, it's going to bite through what I got? You know, it's it it's interesting. It actually reminds me of of being a cop and I would tell people, you know, hey, listen, your house was just broken into. You should do this. Why don't you have an alarm system? Why don't you, you know, use deck screws in your door frame so your door can't get kicked down? Why don't you have flood lights? Why don't you have this stuff? Why don't you have a way to protect yourself if someone actually gets into the house? You have the right in America to protect yourself. I know some states are a little iffy, but you have a right. And regardless of what the state says, you have you you have a duty and you you have a natural right to protect yourself. So, forget what the law is in that situation. It's a rant for another time. [snorts] And then what happens if 12 guys take your door in and you ran out of ammo? Well, then you call the cops, right? Well, you call them anyway, but you see what I'm saying? There's And then what happens with >> the cops? We had SWAT teams. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? We have we have the next level up where there's stuff that I didn't want to get involved in. And I was on the rapid quick response team, rapid response team, whatever that was, which was like a high-speed unit. >> Yeah. But there was still stuff that was like, "Okay, we're at our our limit here. We need to get other guys to to take care of this." So, this is just the the natural reality of of of life in those situations and as well as in spiritual warfare. It's all the stuff is echoed. I wanted to say two things. One is, you know, the deliverance deliverance ministry is I don't know a proper word for it, but um the only analogy I can think of is like Kleenex, right? Someone says, "Go get Kleenex." Well, there's 20 different brands of tissue, right? You know what I mean? >> Um, and some of them work really well and some of them don't work at all. You're going to blow your nose and it's not going to be very effective. >> Yeah. >> Um, that's part of why we're doing this and why I think this book is important. Same with Ignation, Discernment of Spirits, and everything else that we talk about. Not that we are the authority on any of this, but we can point people to I'm still shocked to this day when I mention some something like this to people and they have no clue. They've never heard of it before. >> Right. >> So, we're [snorts] pulling from, you know, >> doctors of the church. >> Right. Right. Because, as you said, there's there's deliverance ministry out there that's good. There's a lot of it that's not in my opinion. >> Um, so that's why this is important. And the other important thing is people might be thinking, well, this is a weird buildup to this book, but why does all this matter, you said it earlier, uh, Theresa Vavala in the Interior Castle, her goal is to get the soul to the ultimate union with God. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, in order to do that, we have to recognize that there's going to be push back. That's why she wrote it, right? And or at least mentioned it in the book >> over and over. And that's so if your goal is ultimate union with God while you're still walking on this earth, which it should be. Yeah. >> I love your saying if you're aiming for purgatory, you have a hell of a backup plan. >> Yeah. >> Should not be your goal. Your goal should be ultimate union with God. Then you need to know this stuff >> so that you can achieve that goal. that just cannot be overstated is you you can't and and I love what Father Riper says about this that every and I I'm sort of extrapolating to maybe I should call up my own statement but every advancement of the kingdom of God is a simultaneous crushing of the kingdom of the enemy. They go hand in hand and you have to understand that. And so and and and here the other reality is this is that in in in our so we have in our orbit like what we're involved with we have a community which is called apostovier which is a private association of the faithful and it includes priests religious ley from all over the world there's thousands I think over 4,000 members now then we have the Avala Institute you know uh which is a an educ educational institution where we do priestly formation for over 100 dasceses, three seminaries, you know, all of that. And then of course this show is an Avala Institute thing. >> Um the books in the in the speaking the marriage ministry Avala Institute thing. >> So when people come into Apostle VA, this is fascinating now because we just had this conversation. What we are noticing as a pattern is that what somewhere between 80 and 90% have issues with some involvement in the occult yoga uh which has occultic you know has demonic effects. Uh I'm not saying all stretching is demonic. I'm just saying yoga has a religious element to it that cannot be extracted from it. um uh Ouija boards, uh Freemasonry, whatever. And because of our culture is becoming more and more secular, 80 to 90% of the people come in, that means 80 to 90% of people we have to refer to priests for some kind of deliverance work. I mean, that's crazy. So, so what part of my own impetus for this book and kind of talk why we talk about it so much is it's rampant. Yeah. And and I will just say this, dioceses that that didn't obey what John Paul II told them to do, which everyone should have an exorcist. Um or or people that are afraid. And because of that, they're not they are harming the people of God. >> Yeah. >> Who need this kind of care, harming the people of God. And our priests are the primary caregivers in that place. That said, every Christian who seeks to come, to your point, to union with God is on the battlefield and needs to know how to fight in their own battles, right? In the battles for their families or their loved ones or whatever. And it and it doesn't have to be scary. It isn't I I have no fear. Like I was wearing snake boots this morning, you know, when we were going out looking around just mainly because I didn't want to get mud on my pants. But, you know, I have no fear because I know where they are. I've been dealt with them for years now. You've killed one. You know, we we just And I So, I'm just equipped. That's all. >> When you can't live, what's what's the other option? I think there's two. One is you get bit because you're not aware. Yeah. Which is horrific. >> The second is you never leave the house. There's a snake out there somewhere. I can't I can't That's lame. >> You know what I mean? So, you you don't From Genesis to Revelation. Yeah. >> In scripture, the enemy is present. [laughter] >> Right. Right. and and God's combating him. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's your life, too. >> Yeah. >> You know, you're you're not there. You don't have some I don't know bubble around you. You have to you have to be aware, but you have to have the proper understanding, which is why we're doing the show, why we started the show to begin with. not just to combat all the all the objectively bad stuff that's out there, but to help equip the ley so that they're a not afraid, b not looking for the devil under every rock, but also just I don't know, understanding it and equipped just equipped to fight. Last thing I want to say and then and this is kind of a tiny bit of a tangent, but it's related and that is there are a lot of good people in exorcism and deliverance ministry. We have a lot of friends in in them. That we don't agree doesn't mean they're bad people. >> Right. Right. >> Um well, that's intellectually dishonest. >> What do you mean? >> Well, you can't modern society has tricked people into a lot of things. One of them is I disagree with this person for this one reason. Therefore, I can't trust anything that they say. >> Right? You know, I'll just say, and I'm not as if I'm in a position to give this example anyway, but there's some stuff that Father Ripker said publicly that I don't think is not necessarily accurate. I I understand that in his position, he's in a very very difficult position. I've have I've had to give talks. I've given Q&As's. You're on a time limit. People ask questions that are incredibly nuanced. You It would take another 3 hours to address one question. So you give the best answer that you can in that situation. By default, 99% of the time when I and I'm just using him as an as an example because most people know who he is. Other priests, too. This isn't this I'm not picking on him because I think he's fantastic. >> Um but I default to they that's what they're dealing with, right? >> You know what I mean? And so he said something that I think ah man, I wish more nuance. >> I wish you would have given a little bit more nuance, >> but that doesn't mean that I throw out everything. That would be insane, right? It's intellectually dishonest and that's what the world's trained us to do is to say, "Well, I don't agree with this one thing you said, so nothing you say can be trustworthy." >> Yeah. >> Whereas the reality is you have to have a track record of you said this, someone tried to correct you or you didn't clarify, you doubled down and then you said five other things and repeated the pattern. Then you can say, "I don't think that that person is necessarily trustworthy." Right? >> That's the process. If you do anything other than that, you're just you're just playing yourself for a fool because that's not how the world works. We're going to get something wrong on this show if we haven't already. I have no doubt in my mind. Why? We're human, >> right? >> Does that mean that we're untrustworthy? No. Because what's going to happen is someone's going to say, "Hey, listen. I don't think you were correct on this. We're going to look into it because we don't >> correct it, >> right? If if it needs to be corrected, we'll correct it." And if it doesn't, we'll say, "Hey, this came up. >> We double checked. Uh we're still going to stand by what we said." and here's why. >> Yeah. >> And handle it that way. So anyway, that's my kind of tangent. >> Last thing. >> Yeah. >> And and and then we'll we'll jump into setting up the text a little bit and or the conversation a little bit more. And that is I don't you know I already said I don't believe that lay people should cavalerely running around cavalerely run around you know um casting out demons. Uh, I've been in one situation where I was a little more loose in that realm before and I ended up in a place with someone who was fully possessed and they said they were struggling and I and I had known a little bit about their situation. I didn't know they were fully possessed and I and I said, "Well, can I pray for you?" And they said, "No, no, no, no, no." And then we had this private conversation later along with somebody who was helping out them. If I would have put if I would have done what my instinct was, which is to be fairly bold, uh I would have ended up, you know, putting my finger in a 220 slot. >> Yeah. >> And and getting a having a real problem. And I have I I've honestly there was another situation I'll say this another situation where somebody that we love very dearly there they had a relative who was struggling and who who was fully possessed as well um was away from the church just was doing some very evil things promoting very evil things but as they're dying wanting you know slowly coming back and in the end they came fully back >> in the middle of that we were asked to pray for that person. He gave demands like don't use the name of Jesus. Well, so did I obey that? I I used Jesus name in Hebrew which he didn't speak. >> So I I did it anyway. But I we knew there was a very high likelihood he was possessed, but he he just wasn't ready to see a priest or whatever. So we went in and prayed. We got h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h, excuse me, hammered spiritually. >> Mhm. >> And it took hours. And >> And you guys weren't doing deliverance. We weren't casting out demons. Just praying for >> just praying for the guy. >> Yeah. >> Just just, you know, L. Yeah. It was all actually supplication prayer. None of it was command prayers. >> It was just the guy. They wanted us to pray for him. He He was okay. He wanted prayers as well. and he made you know but what we learned >> no authoritative commands and I just want to repeat that because it's so important for the story >> and and think about this we had huge kickback that we had to have a priest pray over us >> to clean up all of the darkness that came on us after doing that my main argument with people who are a little more cavalier with what you know scripture says one I don't I don't know anybody who disagrees with me that I would put in a category as a bad person. >> Mhm. >> You know, uh they are scholars. >> Mhm. >> They are wellformed. They are priests. They are ley. My argument back is if you're wrong and I'm right, somebody's going to get hurt really badly. >> Right. >> If I'm right and you're wrong, is that am I saying it right? and you follow my more conservative approach, nobody's going to get hurt badly and progress will still be made, >> right? >> So why do it, >> right? >> You know, right? >> So that that that frames my fundamental disposition into authority which defaults to the priesthood. And not because I'm a clericalist, but I just understand I've I've been in I've seen the I've seen the priest beating up the demons, >> right? >> I've seen them liberate people. I've seen the demons do what they say. I've seen it. >> Yeah. >> So, I know the power of the priesthood. I I you know, I was even uh I don't know if I've talked about this much on on the air, but uh just to speak to the power of the priesthood. I was just talking with a we just had a priest over for dinner the other day and we were talking about this who a really great priest and I I had an accident and if you if you remember me talking about this tell me but I don't I had an accident I ended up uh uh bloody unconscious woke up was here on the property >> walked in the front door in a days and then I don't know if you or Stephanie took me to the ER cuz we live out in the country and it it would have been slower to call an ambulance. >> And I get to the ER, then my priest comes and he's a young priest and I said, "Father, would you mind would you be offended if I told you how to pray?" He said, "I would not." I said, "I okay, I want you to say this." So, by the way, I had a brain bleed. Mhm. >> So, my brain was bleeding interiorly because I had such a bad concussion, uh, bad accident. And, uh, when you, and if people don't know this, when your brain is bleeding, what they do is they don't want to go in to try to solve it, they roll you into the imaging machine and look at the size and scope of it and and then go, okay, let's wait and watch. roll you into the imaging machine a little while longer. And what they're looking to see is if your body is going to selfheal because that's the best way. But if there's too much blood coming too fast and it's pooling and you have to have surgery. >> So I said uh I said please pray the way I pray. I said, and I said, in the name of Jesus, priest said, in the name of Jesus, by the power and authority of my priesthood, by the power and authority of my priesthood, I command this bleeding in your brain to stop. And guess what? They rolled me back the next time and the bleeding was stopped. >> Yeah. >> Now, somebody might say, "What does that have to do with the enemy?" Well, it's a long story, but where the accident occurred >> and how it occurred >> and how it occurred, and I don't need to go into the details, but there was an exorcist here, >> it happened near a spot where he said and and he had he had cleansed the area that uh there had been some some of the worst things that had ever happened on this property happened in that place. >> That's where I had my accident. >> Mhm. So I believe >> the machine that you were using I mean there was data that we could look at that showed that should not have happened. >> It should not have happened. >> There were safeties in place and just total freak. >> Total freak accident. >> Yeah. >> So I just witnessed the power. >> Yeah. >> And I I just could you have done that? I don't know. I just don't even wouldn't even have the instinct to say >> the priest is there. I was like why would you not? He's got extra graces. The dude's got two guardian angels. You know like let let him do what he needs to do. So the so the reason for this book so the title of the book of course is is just I know I don't know if folks can see it when when they're looking at me but it's the devil in the castle St. Terresa of Abala spiritual warfare and the progress of the soul is back to your original point. It's about union with God. And so when she wrote the interior castle, which is the probably the greatest book in the history of the church on prayer and the interior life, uh I I would equate it with I'd hold up there John of the Cross, a scent of Mount Carmel and some other >> isn't she the doctor of prayer or is that John of the Cross? >> She would be I I think she would be it's not a formal title, but yeah. So I I wrote it because of this whole idea of am I imbalanced and kind of but then also was really beautifully pleasantly surprised at how powerful her advice was and I thought wow this if I could extract it and and and make it clear then people could really understand how to fight well it would counterbalance this you know unbelief in our culture or the you know not even understanding how to deal with but the interior castle has seven mansions in it and the analogy is that Jesus is in this is in the center of the castle. >> Mhm. and that we are being drawn to him. And the closer we get, the more unified we are with him, the more in union we are with him, the less uh sin and anxiety and all of the effects of sin has power over us, all of that. And so she uses that analogy and I think it's just incredibly powerful. And maybe that's another reason. I don't know if you like the book, but I think the castle analogy itself is powerful. And the way I would set it up is that she described the kingdom. So now she lived in Abila, Spain, which has 12t thick walls around the the whole perimeter of the of the city. And uh so she and then she lived around castles or castles all over Spain that time. And there's still many of them are are standing. And she described the kingdom of God as like being in those walls. And and you know, you can infer then, well, how do you get in? Baptism, you know, confirmation, you're fully in the walls. And then I wrestled a little bit with her analogy because the language she uses is a little different than Abula where she grew up. Mhm. >> There the the I I ended up in France in a in a city on a hill. It's just fascinating. People can look it up. It's called Carcasson, spelled with a C. And on the city on a hill, you have the the walls around it. So, it's on a hill to defend itself. The walls are around it. And then the people live in in the kingdom, if you will. And then in the middle of the kingdom, there's another wall. And inside that wall there's a castle. [clears throat] >> And I thought, "Oh, this sounds exactly the way she talks about it." So I don't think she'd ever been to France to see Carcasson, but she had seen other castle constructs like this. And so what this what what she outlines is is what is it like to go from the outer court which is this place where everyone who's baptized is but not everyone who's baptized is living >> according to the graces they've been given in their baptism. And so they're subject to the enemy. Right? Right. And if they in and they can be in a they can exit out in a sense. Can't unbaptize yourself. But by >> you leave the courtyard, >> you you Yeah, you can I'm just thinking theologically, you can't be unbaptized, but you can uh uh choose habitual mortal sin. >> Right. >> Which essentially puts you out of the kingdom. >> Right. Right. >> Uh if you die in that state. the the analogy isn't perfect theologically to line up, but so she begins with this is what the outer court is like. And then this is how the demons deal with people who who begin to become what I would call authentic disciples of Jesus. What does that mean? It means they're actually following him. They're not just Catholics in name only. They're not just checking boxes and going to church. They're not just a yeah, when it's convenient or when it's not. It's no, I'm all in. He died. He gave his life for me. There's no other reason to live. My whole life's going to be ordered by him. The way I work, the way I sleep, the way I rise, the way I pray, everything. And she says there are two markers or two realities that determine and this I think we'll end with this on this show and and and come back to the outer court and how the demons deal with somebody who first takes up these this challenge. There are two things that she says that happens that that change everything. Prayer and reflection. when when when the person begins those two spiritual disciplines, now she assumes sound sacramental life, regular confession, regular Eucharist, all of that. But this converse with God and this God self-awareness, the acquisition, the acquisition of those two disciplines, now you enter into authentic disciplehip. Now you're entering into the ca the interior castle. And now there's different ways the enemy wants to battle you as you progress ever more deeply into the castle. >> So if folks want to follow along with us, there are two ways, three ways they can do this. One, you can pick up the physical copy at spiritualdirection.com/shop. Two, you can hit Kindle. Or three, Jordan has narrated it. >> Oh yeah, I did narrate this one. It's It's on Audible. >> Audible. Yeah. >> Yeah. And he did a great job with it. It's fun listening to his voice. >> Well, and like I said, this is, you know, I I Spiritual Warfare and Discern Spirits is another favorite. I joke that I bullied you into writing uh Finding Peace in the Storm. It's another another favorite. But in terms of like one that I hold higher than all the others, it's it's honestly The Devil in the Castle. It was just it's so helpful for my own life. >> Um and I do think in terms of progression, it's spiritual warfare and discernment of spirits. than this. But this book has just so much wisdom because it's Theresa Babala all her wisdom in there. >> Yeah. And it and it does have I do draw on Ignatius. Ignatius was around the Jesuits were very faithful at that time and were very helpful to the Carmelites. Um also draw on John of the Cross. Of course I don't ever interpret or read Teresa or John separately. I can't anymore. Uh so uh there's wisdom from those from those sources as well. But yeah, this I and I people have told me that they had trouble understanding Teresa until they read this book because I I sort of minimize her bunny trails that she takes through the mansions. >> Yeah. >> You know, and um and I I think in a much more structured way. Uh it's not a criticism, it's just the way she thinks. She even she said herself that she wasn't a great writer. So, it's not like you're saying anything she has already said, >> you know. >> Um, awesome. Okay. Well, I'm excited about this. This is going to be another great series. People are still responding very very well to the uh spiritual warfare and discernment of spirit series. We are currently reposting that on the spiritual direction YouTube page. So, for those out there who and by the time this goes out, they may all be on spiritual direction YouTube page, but if you were following devil and the details YouTube page, that's going away. It's all going to Spiritual Direction, but you can always find them on Spotify. I don't believe there's any ads on Spotify if you pay for the non-ad account. Um, and we have way more episodes. They're updated more frequently on Spotify. I just we just ask that you give us a fivestar rating. Go ahead, drop. >> Yeah, subscribe. Drop a comment what your favorite show was and why. I would love to know. >> And we will I want to know their questions, too. what what when we're working through this, what is hard to understand or what did we fail to communicate well and then we can work that into these these >> including past episodes. I'm very very diligent spec on both Spotify and YouTube. I keep an eye on all the comments. Um so please feel free to engage 99 I'll put my name on there, but most of the time it's me. You'll you'll know that it's me. Um yeah, so give us the five stars and uh subscribe everywhere you can subscribe. Tell your friends about it. super super super helpful and we're we're just trying to help the lady and spread the church and spread the truth. >> Yeah. >> All right. All that being said, Romans 16:20, the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. Grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. Amen.