Intelligence Agencies, Security or Revenge (Global Connections)

Welcome to Global Connections on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host Jay Fidel. This episode is called Intelligence Agencies Security or Revenge. How are they changing in the US and the world today? Our co-host for the show is Dr. Rupmati Kandakar, geopolitical analyst. Welcome to the show, Rupati. Aloha. Thank you for having me. Such a pleasure. >> You know, intelligence agencies are more and more relevant and powerful in today's world. On the one hand, they are the nameless, faceless heroes for any nation and many nations. On the other hand, although their operations may not be reported in the media, it is important that they be accountable and that we know what they are doing, that their operations be consistent with our moral standards and norms, and how they are affecting our community, our diplomatic relations, and our way of life. It's more than just watching all those CIA movies on Netflix. It's much more than that. So, can you tell me what we got here? You know, people call it the mission drift. Can you tell me what we have in the United States in the way of intelligence agencies because we seem to have an awful lot of them. >> Yeah, Jay. So this is now um if you talk about intelligence agencies they are the government uh body of the government or organ of the government which uh indulges in collection find actually finding information analyzing it and then utilizing uh the same information. So uh J we know that uh it is done to support national security uh support your foreign policy and also to expose crime or prevent crime. So in the US we have uh the central intelligence agency which is at the helm of uh um the works of uh uh the intelligence agencies which works globally and then the NSA which is a national security uh agency which focuses on technical and signals security J. So and then a plethora of other uh um um firms which uh make up the entire American intelligence system and it has to be very comprehensive because we have other nations which have their own uh intelligence agencies which work to counter. So just as we have governments who have diplomats uh working um face to face, we have intelligence agencies which counter and work with each other. So you know we can broadly classify them as um say domestic in intelligence which will focus on the safety inside the borders and the foreign intelligence which collects data from other nations to understand their uh level of threats external risks. Then you have the signals intelligence which intercepts what do you say uh and reads digital messages and radio signals very important in today's world and the military intelligence which gathers data u to help armed forces to stay safe and stay strong. So kind of broad bracket for these uh agencies and J always the intelligence agencies stay in the dark budget. They always classified under the R&D the research and development uh side of the budget. Nothing comes out as this part of the budget is going for intelligence agencies. It's always something known as R&D or the science budget, the technical budget. This is the kind of uh cover that they get. No, there seems to be a connection between in the size and scope and function of intelligence agencies here and elsewhere and the technology involved. You know, we did a show about um flock and the surveillance cameras here in Hawaii and across the country last week, and it was really a little bit concerning uh how the the cameras were reporting on everybody. And you know, there are thousands of cameras in any country with intelligence agencies, both domestic and foreign international agencies. And Britain is famous for the surveillance cameras. So is China. and the US is right up there too. So we have a lot of technology that reports on everybody and they can say that this is all for the protection of the country, crime prevention, uh prosecution of criminals and the like. But it seems to go further than that. It also seems to generate more and more intelligence agencies. In the US, there are 18 overlapping agencies, you know, and and the movies on Netflix, you see them all squabbbling among each other about who's in charge. Um, but the fact is this this technology uh is what uh proliferates the agencies, their activities, their overlap. Um, and sometimes the fact that they are spying on us too as well. In addition to to protecting us, they spy on us, especially under the Trump administration. Can you talk about the technology? Can you talk about how they are expanding all the time? J the for intelligence agencies the first me best messenger or the basic messenger is the human spy and then you get what you're talking about is the technical uh um power that they get with these drones the space recognition technology your mobiles are made in some uh in a way that you know uh they gather your information we had discussed earlier that Mark Zuckerberg always hides his camera and mutes his microphone puts tape over it because he knows his phone his computer is listening. We we we have conversations all around and you know uh our computer and television picks it up but we don't realize it that this is real time data being collected from the calls that we make the programs that we watch select to watch. Everything is data analysis for them. You know it's uh this is known as proper intelligence gathering because you can literally make out a person's personality through the algorithm that he goes through on his social media on his uh telephone on his you know uh on his spending uh patterns. So all these help the big companies make decisions. the governments to influence voting rights uh the external governments to understand what is working in a country and what is not where to invest where to not so all these questions we it's like a web that we are stuck in um and like you said the spy thrillers get a good run at the box office we we had discussed durand as the uh non-English movie which had a the biggest highest watched on Netflix and vigilante uh in Europe. So this kind of if you watch it you understand the dissatisfaction in a society that they want something like a spy thriller like vigilante in Europe. So we understand immigration is hurting all these are nitty-g gritties of uh information and intelligence agencies are the wing of the government which actually gather this analyze this and then proceed to act. the action is uh very important and that's where these intelligence agencies become uh brutal or effective when they uh make decisions based on this information. >> Oh, so many questions flow out of that. So, what about AI? You know, everybody talks about AI. There isn't a single day that goes by when you don't see at least half a dozen major articles in all the major newspapers about AI and people's concerns and reactions and support of AI. Where does AI fit in this uh network of intelligence? >> Yeah, J AI has actually gelled in its ergonomically uh very well fitted into uh information gathering and analysis because see it was earlier we had to physically uh or you know through a computer take time to analyze thousands of images, thousands of uh data available to us. But now today AI does the same work in a matter of seconds. If you have a thousand satellite pictures, they will map for you ex they will give you your the answers to your questions within split seconds. And that's where AI becomes very um effective because if you know how to use AI and not just dismisses dismiss it as a technological advancement, it is more important because AI today makes things faster, easier and more accessible. You know, you can uh literally you have face recognition technology which can uh show you where the person stays, his history, his national identity, his foreign journeys, anything and everything that you want can be analyzed in the graph that you want. So it's your question and the AI adapts to give you the answer. So that becomes also the AI is gathering information about you. So it's a mutual thing that happens between AI and you and today AIJ can replace an entire office setup of any individual. So you imagine the control that the artificial intelligence has over that person that thing can dictate terms to the person and the person can use it for that. So we are getting into mutual bonds J which we will be very hard to come out of. So that way, >> you know, back in the day, you know, the spies, both domestic and international, would leave a little folded piece of paper in in the in the place between the slats of a park bench, and then they would stand up, walk away, and somebody else would come and sit on the same bench and pick up the piece of paper. And that was the way they communicated, you know, intelligence, information. And then we had 911 and 911 seemed to change things because uh then you had social networking analysis and if you wanted to you know chase terrorists or counterterrorists u you used um you know this this kind of blackbox arrangement where you you looked for keywords in telephone calls and emails and the like and and the computer it wasn't AI then the computer would find connection. They would find this person's name mentioned hither and yan and they would say ah this is a terrorist all under George W. Bush uh right after 9/11 there was the Patriot Act which allowed them to use telephones and telephone records and all that and that's still going on of course. Um but now it's it's on high octane now it's really remarkable. Uh they still get the telephone records um with the progeny of Pegasus. Remember Pegasus the Israeli telephone uh snooping device. Um and then you know you've got you've got it's global. So if I wanted to find a terrorist I would have many many many ways um to look at keywords look at where every given person has been what he's done it and it goes far beyond that flock surveillance camera technique. So what I'm saying is um you know we don't know the half of it. You know you can look at all of the CIA move you know movie pictures you want. We don't know really what's going on. You don't know. We don't know what kind of technology they're using um to collect the data um and to analyze the data and then to connect the data not only domestically but internationally and and so forth. So the question I I put to you is uh who's watching the store? We do have civil rights still, don't we? Uh who's watching the trade craft? Who's watching the AIdriven data analysis um collection to decision pipeline? Who is accountable when they use it? I mean you know all those movies the CIA is killing somebody uh you know completely in an immoral unethical way. Uh and this data is allowing them to use algorithms and find people and sometimes there are errors. Uh it isn't even a human analyst. um it drives a strike, an arrest, a policy recommendation and so forth. We don't know the half of it. Who can tell us? Who is telling us? Is there accountability? Very less of it. Extremely less of it is because Jay these intelligence agencies build a network over time. It is never sudden that they enter a place and they can give you the information. It has to be built over a long period of time in which there's establishment of the faceless uh network and if you don't know what is who is it and what it is how can we monitor it uh there's an example of it that I'll give you that uh uh India had a huge network of uh spies or normal network of spies in Pakistan because of their terror activities against India and Gujaral the uh president of um the prime minister of India uh he felt uh that uh this was wrong and he submitted the entire list of spies in Pakistan directly to the government and that's when our network was uh all the spies were killed J because this person betrayed his own government in India so we had our entire network wiped off so again uh the intelligence agencies India in India had to start from scratch because you can't let an enemy state function without a sustained or you know established uh network intelligence network. So when your own uh people betray you that is when you have this kind of uh you saying accountability he felt this was wrong and he he surrendered the entire uh network of Indian spies. So uh they are vulnerable because first technically that they are faceless. They have to go and blend into an enemy state. When they blend into an enemy state J they are always at risk of being found. And the torture that uh that we hear about about spies and all is mindboggling. And for that we have to understand that their secrecy uh of operation and the independence that they get in the operation is all part of the job. And if they don't have that uh independence or that uh free hand in their workday, they really cannot function because it's like a comprehensive uh giving of information and then the main decision makers have to select out of it what they feel is right. But the raw uh agencies uh raw data that you get is in bulk and to gather in bulk they have to work freehand. Jay >> Yeah. Well, I I do uh I do worry about uh you know the uh accountability issue. I mean, I get the sense that Congress doesn't know what the agencies are doing. If you go to the individual committees, even the committees charged with following this subject. They don't know. Nobody tells them. Nobody wants to tell them. A guy like Trump and many other autocrats, they don't want to tell them. So, it all happens under the hood. Um, and some really dastardly things happen in the name of national security. Uh, so um, I'm concerned about that in this country, but I'm also concerned about it overseas. I will never forget I went to a dinner party once. May I share with you? Um, there was a guy from the FBI there and I said to him, "What do you do?" And he said, "I cover Southeast Asia." So, wait a minute. The FBI is a domestic organization. you're covering Southeast Asia. When did it get to be that the FBI covered places outside the United States? Well, that's what we do. And I think, you know, and this was 20 years ago, I think that the FBI overlaps the CIA, overlaps various other organizations. Um and in fact um there's a tremendous expansion of the jurisdiction of a lot of these uh intelligence agencies from domestic to international. So where is the line? Here's my question for you. Where is the line between foreign intelligence collection and domestic policing? And how had that line moved? And has Congress and the public been told about it? I can I can answer that last spot myself. The public has not been told about it. But how has the line moved? What's the dynamic on this? Why is the FBI have people doing intelligence gathering overseas? >> Yeah. You see, from what you say, it it really brings out the point that there is so much of blur u blurriness in what they do. there are no lines drawn and suppose because of the diaspora that functions because of uh the um the threat that travels across borders now terrorism has no borders that's what we say so when your uh suspect travels back to his homeland that's when you have to follow him uh from America to Southeast Asia so that kind of uh broadens his spectrum of work uh for the int for the spy and uh so many things that say that it it gets for the countries to understand that these spies or these intelligence agencies work across networks. There are um across borders across um what do you say um any kind of restriction because they their uh information and their source cannot be kept and that broad uh freedom that they have is what makes them you know we the point that we come back to accountability there is no accountability because we don't know what they are doing so how can we say let's put a bud budgetary restrict rictions is the only thing that we do but that also has swept under the carpet through fancy names J in the budget. So uh general public are just mere spectators or receivers of these intelligence agencies. >> Just a a cursory look at what is being spent the budget in the United States on intelligence. It's something uh uh over $70 billion. But myself I'm I'm sorry. I don't think it stops there. I think it's way beyond that. And uh that may be the part that's public, but so much so much of what they do exceeds that uh in terms of their programs, their partnerships, other agencies, their partnerships with international intelligence agencies, uh what you know, and a lot of which is functionally unreable. So, they really cannot tell you um all the money they're getting because the budget would reveal too much. I I expect that would be way north of a hundred billion dollars. Um and even the agencies may not know what the other agencies are spending on their efforts. So, what do we do about the budget? I mean, it seems to me that there's so much slop, may I use that term, uh, in the military and uh, in the intelligence budgets that there's really no accountability in terms of budgets and what we spend. Um, and and this means that they can do, as you suggested, whatever they want and they can target whoever they want. Uh, and they can take action in any way they want. And we don't know, we don't even know how much it costs or who's paying for it. Your thoughts? >> Yeah, Jay, you summarized it so well because uh these intelligence agencies uh cannot give a clear account of which countries they are working in, which people they are working with, what are the technological advancements that they are bringing in. You know, you have these fly cameras which come in. They are very uh expensive to make. the drones uh uh which move um without being uh uh detected all these cost money and these technological advancements are um something which are necessary for them and uh you know J um sometimes they go back to basics sometimes they go to technological advancement there is a span of uh uh what do you say there their spending that we really do not have any control over and if they if they were to reveal exactly what they are spending. They would leave trails of uh information as to with which agencies they are cooperating or uh opposing and that would make the other agencies of other countries more alert or adaptable to what the American agencies are doing. So secrecy is the uh main point of intelligence agencies. And if we now get into the nitty-g gritties of it, we have we also have double agents who play the game uh both ways. So that becomes uh your your trained your invested spy becomes some other country's uh source of information and that would be a waste of money. So where do we account that in? There is really no rules of accounting that we can put into intelligence agencies at all. Well, you know, um I I'm very concerned about this on the domestic level in the sense that uh there's a certain dynamic here. Anything that the government can find or buy in the case of the uh the flock surveillance cameras, they're privately operated. And so civil rights don't necessarily apply. Civil discovery doesn't necessarily apply. And so the government can buy or get as a gift for in return for access, you know, quid proquo uh from these civilian organizations. And here's the thing, in the case of Hawaii, Hawaii HPD, Honolulu Police Department, they say they're going to only hold on to this information for 90 days. And if the information is not being re not relevant to a police investigation, a local police investigation, they're going to they're going to destroy it at the end of 90 days. Well, who makes that decision? What's that decision based on? Why do I believe that or not believe that? I I would suggest to you that anything they can get their hands on, anything from any black box, from any source of intelligence, stays in the black box forever and ever more. And if they can get it overseas, the same thing. It it doesn't go away. It may be depreciate in terms of relevance or irrelevance over time. Um, but it's still there. So, what what troubles me about it is that anything and everything that everyone and anyone does remains in the intelligence black box, which really follows you all the days of your life. And that may be effective but it's chilling don't you think? >> Yeah Jay it is because uh the technical things that come for uh these agencies is that they also have uh people who they employ as spies and their handlers involved you know uh all these things um when they operate. You remember that story of the green prince of Mos Mossad the MS? Uh he was Hamas's um founder's son. So he had the Israeli agencies handling him and he would give them information which helped uh um Israel reign in the Palestine uh you know militant wing. But what happens to him the protection of him is very important because he was working uh for the government of Israel against his own uh family also. So this is one case but there are million other cases where they penetrate into the um fabric of that nation which you want to gather control of. So J it is like if you go to see it it is more vast than the stars in the universe because we don't know what they're doing when they're doing who is doing it who is the handler who is the uh subject what they're working on which information they gather what is the project that they do now the project nila that is uh going on it is something which is going to there is no definite timeline to it they are going to hunt down the uh the the what do you say the terrorists of October 7 and make sure that they dealt with whoever helped whoever didn't bar now gone back to their own life after killing innocent people they're going to hand them down something like operation uh wroth of god lasted 20 years how do we decide half of us will retire by the time uh the next budget but that overlapping or that going over timelines is what makes the agency so effective and when a country has a effective uh intelligence agencies which can uh override these timelines or budget pressures that's when it makes the you know you get scared of it and that's where you have these top agencies which we have uh they are the ones who have actually survived controls over them. >> Yeah. Well, you you you know you imply that big countries have big intelligence agencies and we know from we know from the movies and from logic itself um that they collaborate with each other and if they're in the same you know the same group uh at their allies. On the other hand, it's perfectly possible and likely that small countries have intelligence agencies. Uh they don't have to have a lot of spies. They can buy the information or they can get the information as a quid proquo. They can exchange the information. So it's a a global phenomenon that every country can have intelligence agencies and does have elig intelligence agencies. You don't have to have spies anymore. The other guy is your spy. The other country, the other intelligence agency is your spy. And you can buy that information. I mean, for example, um, how did the United States know exactly where the deer leader was when they bombed uh tan? They they got that information from somebody else. It wasn't it wasn't only the United States that, you know, was able to supply that information. And this goes around the world. So I don't have to have a thousand spies or a 100 thousand spies. I can buy it. And so every country large and small can have an intelligence service. And um how much does it cost? It doesn't cost that much. bottom bottom line is we have a network an international network of intelligence services following everybody and and sometimes telling the truth about the intelligence and sometimes using you know a false flag about the intelligence. So it's really kind of interesting how how this works and then of course you have the whole issue about about u totalitarian governments who use this information not for law law lawful purposes or um to to achieve uh security in their own country or even to help other countries achieve security. Um they do it for score settling. For example, the United States, how about that United States? If Trump wants to find somebody who's an enemy of his, how much trouble is it for him to call the national intelligence uh person uh or any one of those 18 American agencies and say, "Hey, I want to know. I want to know what's going on here. Tell me tell me everything and I will have my attorney general. I will have my FBI look that person up and take appropriate steps to prosecute or worse." And so score settling enters into the picture. I don't think this was really all that popular back in the day of the park bench, but is certainly popular now because so easy. And that goes for every autocracy around the world, doesn't it? Score settling becomes part of intelligence, hasn't it? Isn't that true? >> True. very true because um anytime there's a mishap or some um unto a terrorist action the first line that comes is that it's a result of intelligence failure. So they have to be uptight about everything that they uh they support. They the intelligence gathering has to be so precise that they for foretell what is going to happen. If they don't it's a failure on the machinery and that's where you find out that you know the viability of these intelligence agencies and is the processing of the information. Has the information reached the right channels? Has the information reached the right decision makers? Have they been able to uh make sure that if there was intelligence gathered has it been able to be utilized in such a way that a proper decision was making in the domestic or the international arena. So all these things that how the information trickles from bottom to up is extremely important in intelligence agencies like you said small countries don't need to have these humongous uh uh networks. They rely on other countries for intelligence gathering and uh sourcing and if something happens in their country they do ask for help. they do ask for satellite imagery and they do ask for uh uh you know uh persons or the branches to come in and investigate for them. So this kind of sharing of information is very important but there are so many uh there's so much of suspect in intelligence agencies that the main thing is not to trust and not to overreveal uh everything to the other. So this kind of secrecy like I again repeat is very important in intelligence agencies because what they hold is for themselves. The technological advancements Jay, the uh surveillance techniques, the uh what do you say the merging of the intelligence and the military is what makes them more lethal, more effective and uh you have um uh intelligence agencies like the Mossad of Israel, the RAW of India, you know, Russian, the federal uh security service, all the the American central intelligence agencies which are very very effective at uh doing this and like You said the ministry of state security for China that first uses the entire machinery to make sure that their population is under an authoritarian government. Nothing can flex its muscles against the government. So they use it as a two-faced prong J that they do control the domestic also and uh in outside world doesn't matter to China as much as the inside control matters. So we have intelligence agencies used in different different ways. The the weightage that is given to intelligence agencies for external threats to internal threats is very important. Now Israel is facing enemies all around. India is facing it on the west and the north. So they are targeted. U Russia just now is collecting everything. So uh this kind of aims and objectives of the intelligence agencies varies according to the time foreign policy government uh investment and J their uh their ability to make this information effective into decisions that is extremely important. >> Yeah we don't realize a few things. Let's let's take a moment to realize a few things. Um one is um why why would for example China be interested in getting the data um biographical personal data on everybody in this country? Why? Because it can make it can make um decisions about what this country is really about, how well defended we are, uh what is our political atmosphere at a given moment. Same thing with Russia. And it's so easy to get that. Um it's it's really pretty uh interesting how much information one country can get about another country and then using AI or whatever they have in terms of social networking analysis make an analysis of the whole country at a given moment. That's that's one thing I don't think people realize that it's not just you and me it's the whole country is being evaluated in terms of you know prognostication of its political choices and so forth. You don't think that Russia and China are prognosticating on the midterms? Of course they are. And they have probably better data than we do about the midterms. Um the other thing is the instantaneous quality of it. Um, one of the stories I found interesting about the flock uh surveillance cameras is not only they recognize the car, the license, the face, um, you know, and and all the information about given person walking through the parking lot of Home Depot or some other big box store, they get that instantaneously. So, Homeland Security is plugged into that and it knows when a person walks into the store, out of the store, into the parking lot, out of the out of the parking lot. So, they're there. They're there instantaneously. It's not an accident. It's not a coincidence. They know instantaneously and they take action instantaneously. You know, in the old day there there had to be, you know, communication and evaluation. a lot of people looking at a lot of screens to figure out whether Joe Doss is crossing the parking lot at Home Depot. Now they know instantaneously. And the same thing goes internationally. In other words, the point I make is that it it's not happening at on any delay at all. The whole evaluation of a person or a country is instantaneous fast as you can blink your eye. This changes things, doesn't it? >> Yes, Jay. It does. it this that the speed with which technology has been used and um break neck speed. Earlier we were on human pace now we are on supercomput pace and the data um and the results that we expect can be manipulated to our suit our questions. So if you have a million images and you want it to form a graph to show that what would be the future they would predict in or three give me three predictions of what would be the next trajectory of events and the AI would give you exactly that that is how dangerous AI is and this exact um uh artificial intelligence can fall in the wrong hands and that's when we have a real tussle between the security agencies who trying to protect the country uh promote foreign policy, reduce crime and the terrorists who are trying to increase crime, hurt foreign policy and uh damage the uh national security. So a head-on uh tussle that happens between uh based on technology because today technology is very easily available to all and uh based on your uh monetary or you know your capacity to assimilate this technology into your daily life is what matters today and terrorists are very fast to learn all this. You remember Ata? Ata said in the uh September 11 attack that just teach me how to he went to the flying school and he said I want to learn flying as soon as possible. So the instructor said in the time that you give me I can only teach you how to take off. He's saying fine that's all that I need. So they are very clear in the objectives. So if their point is to hurt a nation by you know uh some information that they gather, they would do it. They would learn. They would adapt. We have to be quick. Uh, our intelligence agencies have to be quick to make sure that that information if it reaches them can be countered. >> Yeah. You know, it's funny when we have these conversations, Rupi, it always raises questions that I have never thought about before. And so, uh, you know, we've we've established that countries, especially countries that that are wealthy, can afford to have big intelligence apparatus. And we've established that smaller countries can buy that intelligence and use it for their own purposes and trade it for their own purposes. But there's something else. There's industrial intelligence. There's information about your competitors, information about, you know, somebody you don't like on a private scale. Private scale only. And so look at um chat GVT. Look at all those other AI um you know, programs. uh if I want to know about my competitor or somebody I don't like. If I want to compete with a company or person in the marketplace, it's not hard for me. I can go on those AI programs and get a lot of information without standing up, without having industrial spies. I can I can look it all up immediately. This changes not only, you know, the country and the world. It changes the business community. It changes the individual community. Not only can I get information that helps me personally by being better informed, I can get information that's intelligence information. And maybe that's why some people are so concerned about AI because it makes everybody an intelligence gatherer. Don't you think? >> Yeah. Say see when on on the phone we we talking to our phone is listening and we talk about suppose we talk about our car and you say my car needs this and next moment you'll have uh all your algorithm showing you advertisements of exactly what you need in different different brands different u so that is intelligence gathering and they process it so fast the next time you're on your social media they flash those advertisements and you become an instant buyer. So uh this kind of um intrusive uh access that they have in personal lives then goes on to form a very comprehensive algorithm say for a domestic market, a national market and uh used by all these companies like you say to see where the potential buyers are. what would be the products that are that are that are being used by uh who is buying and what is very important for uh industries to be set up and for products to be sold. What would be the advancements in uh um products that people would like and would adapt to? What would be methods to reduce the cost of uh uh these products is what they aim for. uh and uh Jay suppose uh you remember the pager uh this so they had to get into who is using the pager how many pages will be sold then the bug had to be installed so there is a lot of uh work that goes on when uh and it can be used both ways the intelligence agencies use it the manufacturers use it this information is uh very flexible to be used so but we have to understand that the people are being monitored. The people are at full vulnerable risk of being monitored. Jay, >> you know, um I would like to uh I'd like to solve the problem. Okay. I mean, we've identified at least some of the threat aspects of the problem and they kind of overlap with the threats of AI, but they're they're more than that because if if government does this or encourages it or collaborates with other governments about it becomes all the more threatening. So, here we are and um I would like to make you the national director of intelligence. That way you have some influence over all those 18 American agencies that are dealing in intelligence. And I'm asking for you to make some policy about how to deal with this so that it provides us with security. Uh it uh deals with crime, deals with personal security, national security, and it also allows the government to extend itself um for military and diplomatic and geopolitical purposes. So you have a big road a whole big a big responsibility as the NDI right now. I think we've agreed that it's out of control. Um that Congress doesn't know that people don't know. Even Hollywood doesn't know. Nobody knows what they're doing. So I'm asking you to step in and give me a little comfort. What kind of policies do you adopt? they would keep on making the intelligence agencies stronger because today America faces such a big threat because we are right now dealing with Iran. Iran is one of u they have they're civilizational they're civilizational in the spy network also. So uh you have to understand that unless you're equipped to deal with these terrorists on every level J uh this is always going to be a perpetual battle because they never they never stop they never till their last breath they will continue to hurt and haunt. So we have to be prepared to defend and protect and that is the main crux of American policy to protect their citizens and that is always has to be um on the top tier of priorities for intelligence agencies, defense agencies, decision-m uh committees, everybody. Unless you work in um unity, we we will be unable to face what is coming. And believe me, what is happening now is going to have a repercussion in the future. There are going to be sleeper cells activated. There are going to be uh streets which are going to be targeted. They're going to be innocent citizens who have no uh no protection or no they're just simple citizens who can be attacked by these terrorists who come with a sense of revenge sense of hurt and when they have penetrated into the American society they become a more lethal weapon or they become a more potential hurtful point for us because that is terrorism J that is spreading terror in um the country and the slipper cells or the breath in point that they have that my breath are hurt across uh that place by this country even though they stay in the country even though they thrive in the country are successful they still hold a grudge and when you when you have that grudge you need these intelligence agencies to know the movements the messaging the communication that happens to understand that there's going to be disturbance to forecast that there will be something which will hurt our country. >> You know, um back in the day, World War II, you know, the Nazis are famous for having family tell on family. Uh and uh there were there were many stories about how they used one family member, one friend to tell on another friend, and they would get their intelligence that way. then they'd go out and have the Gestapo go and arrest the guy. Um, that isn't necessary anymore. They can find out who's speaking against them by looking at their own black box of collected and you know collected and and uh, you know, preserved intelligence over all of us. And so, um, you don't you don't have to have somebody tell on his friend or his mother or father or uncle. um they already have that information. This changes the world. It changes, you know, the notion of of going after your your u mission drift, going after your um your um score settling. That's what Trump is doing. He's settling scores. And of course, the intelligence agencies help him to do that. He can identify his targets and he can find out more about them than he could ever do during World War II as a as a a Gestapo agent. So query, doesn't that change the world? Should we all be concerned about a different society around us on what we say, what we think, what we write, what we communicate on the telephone and in email, uh, and on the street corner, uh, who we meet with, who we spend time with, it's all an open book. And if you want to settle scores, uh, like Trump, it's easy to do that. And then it's easy to have your Department of Justice who just got confirmed, Todd Blanch, uh you to do your bidding and remove that person from the scene. So, um I think it changes our our society, don't you? >> Yeah, Jay. Yeah. Because, uh like you said, he's using it as his own little America is his business firm today and uh we are just part of the firm. uh he has never given priority to citizens as uh the real holders of the will of the democracy. It has just been that how do I make this my own uh support system. So all the uh efforts all the actions are directed towards that and intelligence agencies are being used for precisely that to monitor which will uh suit him or not. uh you remember Mao Zidong uh when he had the campaign of a thousand flowers he he he bought everybody uh in the system to say whatever was uh he couldn't find who was against him with him so he said I give freedom to everybody to talk against me or whatever you all want everybody came out right against ma they voice their descent and it they were all slaughtered so uh something like that is happening but in a more covert way with Trump not slaughtered exactly but put to task and trained to obey that. >> I why do I think of that uh that moment where there was a a terror attack in Paris. Uh oh no it was after 9/11 >> and there was a headline in one of the French newspapers that said we are all Americans. two some new new sums to American and what it was. We are all Americans. Well, we are all we are all intelligence. We're all part of this new world intelligence um on both ends getting the intelligence and being victimized by the intelligence. And so we have a different world going on and and therefore we have to look at the world differently. Now you know Trump wants battleships. Allah uh circa post World War I called the Trump battleship which is ridiculous and and we we're spending a lot of money trillions on carriers and the like um and they may not be relevant anymore because we are in a war of intelligence aren't we? intelligence rules the day just the way drones have replaced you know classical artillery um and bombs and they're cheaper than all all that we've seen in the press. So the whole idea of of making a senseless war against Iran seems irrelevant. You don't need to do that. We're already in a war of intelligence. You can do stuff against your your neighbor. You can do stuff against your national adversary using that intelligence without dropping bombs, without boots on the ground, without uh you know uh without uh without making physical war. You can do that. Don't you think that's the future here? We aren't going to need Trump battleships. We're not going to need trillion dollar carriers. Uh we're not going to need boots on the ground. We have it in a little black box about that big. We have all the information we want to do dastardly things to our adversaries. What do you think? Is that where we're going? And is that where we should have gone in dealing with Iran? >> Correct. Right. J the second point is more relevant in what you say because everything could have been done to uh this direct confrontation was not really required uh when you're facing a persistent enemy like Iran. It was it is the access of evil. It is the kingmaker of uh terrorists. So to be able to go on a head-on battle with them and right now their wings are cut off because of the weak Hamas Houthi his bullah but once they regroup and they reh come back it's like those zombie movies that we see they do regroup J and they do come back uh more uh perilous than before because they they don't know what is uh final of death. They believe in revenge, revenge, revenge. So, uh Jay really what we are getting into the repercussions are going to come a little bit later in on and that is what Trump fails to understand. He saying it's a get in cut it off finish that's over but that's when it begins when we feel that everything is going to stop. They are going to start attacking back. They're going to be wounded. It's like the snake. If you leave a wounded snake, you can never leave a wounded snake. It'll come back for you. You either kill the snake, destroy it, burn it. But if you leave a wounded snake, it'll come back to bite you. It finds you and hunts you. So that's what we are doing with Iran. >> Yeah. So um you know they they call it hybrid war as far as Russia is concerned because it's partly um you know physical war and it's partly you know internet war and the like. Um but I think as time goes by it'll all be the hybrid part of hybrid war war the internet war the intelligence war um and you get other people to do the boots on the ground you don't do them. So I I I suggest to you that this is changing the future of geopolitics for sure and um we are we are in a time now when the results could be really really bad uh and really good I suppose for a country or an organization that wants to use intelligence as a way as a way of dealing as a way of life. So um give us your closing thoughts. What what what message would you like to leave with our viewers here after this very interesting discussion? Rubmani >> J what we touched upon was very important because uh you never know who is your uh who's the intelligence that is what is the intelligence surrounding you because information as a source of intelligence we just discussed uh is prevalent all over but the physical intelligence sources uh they are the ones who raise the families who blend into uh the structure of uh uh the environment that they're supposed to study and gather information from we don't know that and we don't know uh what are the counter measures that are taken the double spies that come in so lots of nitty-g gritties to look at it and we are going to have a lot of spy movies after the operation is complete so for for the common person is just wait and watch be vigilant and uh make your moral rights and your personal citizenship always protected J because when you protect yourself you do help the nation protect the nation. >> Yes. Okay. Let's let's leave it there. I I think that's very good advice and I think um we will all see this unfold in due course. I wish we had more time to examine some of the other implications. We know there will be other implications is something to follow. Thank you so much to our co-host Dr. Ruth Marie Kandakard, our geopolitical analyst. I'm Jay Fidel, host of Global Connections. The title of this episode has been intelligence agencies security or revenge. Watch this space. Thanks to our viewers for watching. We'll see you again soon for the next one. Aloha. Aloha Rupi. >> Aloh. Thank you so very much.