Inside Salford's Crime Family - Pat McCann, Over 20 Years in Prison

The one I got done for was um a jewelers called David Robinsons. David M Robinson's in Ultranun just outside of Manchester. Um and rammed it slapped a Grenada through the Rolex display window. >> So you done for five hours. What was >> that? Yeah. 18 years and it was four shootings. Do you know what I'm saying? Conspiracy. Four shootings over like a two three day period. Uh, I was in Strangeways, G, Armless, Strangeways, G, Futton, Dovegate, Oakwood, Fosway, Earl Stoke, Portland. Got released from Portland. I've done I've done about 25, 30 prisons in my life. I've seen guys cut his own eyelids off, his own ears, nose, his own lip. I've got friends also got cousins and friends that I would have died for. I don't speak to them no more cuz I'm Muslim. These are people that I would have really died for. Yeah. Anyone who reads the Quran with no bias and um opens their heart and reads it and takes it in, they will not have a problem with Islam. Islam can save the world. 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And don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. And boom. We're on. We're on. Today's guest we got man. Yes. James. How are we? >> I'm good, mate. Thanks very much for having us. Massive fan. >> Oh, yeah. Thanks for the shout, man. >> Good to see you. I know your brother. Well, Jordan. >> Yeah. >> Very much a big character. Got a lot of love and respect for him. He's just a mad bastard. People, you see what you get. I believe he's a great artist as well. Unbelievable. >> Great eyes. >> Yeah. But bit of a mad story. Family travelers. Sulford. >> Yeah. Um, prison. A lot of prison. Nearly 20 years in prison. You've done >> century in my family and my dad and my brothers and me. >> Yeah. But it's s is a mad place. Manchester, Glasgow, sort of London. That is Liverpool. It's full of mad bastards. >> Yeah. The world is, let me just think you Jordan. Big up Jordan man as well. The greatest artist to ever come out of um England if you ask me. The greatest rapper anyway. One of the greatest musicians. But yeah. Um, I watched his podcast review when when it was up and um, just wanted to say if you watch his very first podcast Jordan's did with a kid called Man Take Risks from Birmingham and um, he says on that podcast he said I have to be careful what I say cuz of his ADHD. Shit just comes out of his mouth and um, the kid actually does know scripture James. Yeah, because as well as myself done years in prison and like the Bible's your best friend in prison. So he definitely does know scripture. He's just a bit of a madman. Like that's not just a bit. He's a certified mad man. >> And um he, you know, I'm a big brother to him, but he's had this complex from a young boy. I think it might be because he never knew me dad. Do you know what I'm saying? Where we we all I've got the best of memories with me daddy. You know what I'm saying? Like the best. And me my brother Jim does. Jerry does. But Jordan never got to meet daddy. He didn't know what his voice sounded like. Didn't smell him. None of those things. So he's always felt like he's the head of the family, but he's the baby of the family, but he's he just tries to carry himself like he has to carry everyone's burdens and pressures. Do you know what I mean? So that's why sometimes he does come across a bit mad. Um he's he's had a lot of pressure from a >> Yeah. Underneath all that when you sit with himself, he's very on it. He's very switched on a lot more to the character than there's a method to his madness. >> People buy into that character as well. he was selling tickets. That sort of attention as well makes you play into that character because it's getting the views and the clicks. >> It's an alter ego in it. Of course it is. >> And then and then people think, "Oh, it's good." They just they carry on. But with our Jordan obviously um just one more thing when I come home in 2008, he was about he was getting into trouble. My mom had the pub and um so my mom had the pub. She was in the pub and he was at the house and um he was always getting into trouble. He was so my mom's like, "You got to do something." And Big Bro have just come home from jail. Must have just been away for 5 years for robberies. So um I've got him. Me and a couple of my mates have chased him down, brought him back. This is like punishment style kneecapping he's getting now. Yeah. So we've brought him back to the house. He's he's was fast, skinny, and fast. So my mates had to catch him. Dragged him across the craft and all that into me Mars. Yeah. I had it all set up. I was like I was going full Joe Peshy on him. Good fellas. Yeah. So I'm giving like you fucking you've took a piss, you know. You think you can get away with all this? I said to him, mate, go and get the bat. Yeah. So he's gone and got the bat. So I'm like, you get your legs are getting broke now. I'm I'll teach you. Yeah. And mate, do you know what he did? The kid Yeah. He just stuck his leg out like, you know what I'm saying? didn't wink or didn't, you know, he called my bluff basically and I couldn't do it to him. James, he's my little brother. I love him. Just been away for 5 years. I just wanted him to say no or scream or whatever >> and he didn't. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, shout to you. Anyway, Jordan, enough about you. >> Before we go into the madness, I always like to go back to the start of my guest. Get more of a bit of understanding about you, where you grew up, and how it all began. >> Yeah. So um I I was born in West Midlands in Warsaw. Um we lived on a site um in Bloxswitch. I was born in Mana Hospital in Warsaw and I traveled till I was about 9 or 10. So traveled all around the country stopping at different camps, different sites and just a life on the road like a typical traveler kid from the ' 90s. And uh yeah, it was the best years of my life. And um about 1997, 1996, 1997 we moved to Sulford. My dad was in prison and my mom's not my mom's she's from Dublin. She's born all her family's dubs and she's Irish but she wasn't a traveler. She met my daddy at 15 and basically lived on the road with him. Do you know what I'm saying? She wasn't close to her family. She like went with my dad, married, met him at 15, married at 16, had children and yeah, so she was away from her own family for large uh periods of time and the ' 90s culture, especially with the Irish travelmen, there was a lot of drinking, a lot of fighting, do you know what I mean? So, um there was a lot of Yeah, there was a lot of violence. And my mom, like when my dad went to prison, she said, "You know what? I want you to settle. I want us to get education and um settle. So she just moved to Sulford and said we're not going. So whatever comes, we're dealing with it. We're not. That's it. Do you know what I'm saying? >> Mhm. >> And that was the start of it. Oh yeah. >> What was your dad then prison for? >> Um I don't really know, James. It was like burglaries, robberies. Um I I don't really know because um I know he was he was um he was a hardworking man, my dad, but he did have his problems with um drink and drugs and it was whenever he came back to Manchester um he got into them kind of problems. It was like a cursed city Manchester for travelers. My dad used to call it a rainy sitter, but he he did very well when we was out of Manchester and was traveling. But whenever we come back to Manchester is uh Yeah, he was on the drink and the drugs and carrying on. >> How many brothers? You got four? >> Yeah, four brothers. Four boys and four girls. >> That must have been madness for your m Kathy. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I've spoke to your mom a few times on Instagram. >> Yeah. Yeah. Shout out my mom, man. She's a G as well. Mhm. But yeah, uh it was it was hard for her. But to be fair, like any other family where these girls, they take the role as well in it. So my sisters did help a lot. Like shout out my big sister tree. She's like, she was been my hero from a kid. Do you know about school? Um I did a little bit. So obviously my mom's like, "Yeah, I want you to get an education and all that." She just didn't know the kind of education I was going to get in Sulford. Do you know what I'm saying? Obviously, it wasn't the one that she wanted. But for me, uh never really liked school. Um I'm oldfashioned like that. My dad didn't. If it was, if I wasn't away for that 10, then my daughter wouldn't have even gone to high school. So, I've just went away when my daughter was six to come home. She's 16, leaving school. I used to argue with her all the time because I didn't want her in high school. I don't I don't trust the curriculum system. It's not just me. I mean my whole people, our culture do not trust the school systems. So education is very important. Um you can get that anywhere but the the doctrine what the schools um are pushing I believe they're just trying to suppress people's full potential. >> Do you know what I'm saying? They want they want a strong workforce. >> You're not using your creativity in schools. All your memorization times table and all the shit you learn in school they don't use that. arithmetic, maths, you know, that that can be taught at home and stuff. It's the um the whole setup of a school. It's like a prison. Do you know what I'm saying? The way it is, the classrooms, the lightings. Yeah. The whole atmosphere of it. If you look at thousands of years ago like the Greeks and stuff went their schools was outside by running water and things. What's going to inspire the mind? Do you know what I'm saying? where these the kind of classroom environments we have over here it's all like just to build a strong workforce like uh factory f basically and also this um these children today with the school I think they're just everyone's becoming way more stupider because you know once calculator was involved all of the new mathematicians people are thinking that they're clever they're not their mathematicians are becoming weaker Yeah. And more uncover now with chat GPT Google children are just so like no one will think for the self. No one will try and uh resolve a problem in the mind. Yeah. Whether it's a mathematical problem or or or a riddle or something. People will just straight go to the easy route. So that that's where we're at with um so using caravans we use in sights. Yeah, we was in I was it was on a site then sometimes mostly in the winter you'd be on a site >> that's fixed lovely I loved it but in the summer you're out traveling do you know what I mean where did you go so we traveled um all around like the Midlands southwest down Cornwall Somerset around London um apparently we was in Scotland I don't remember it but um yeah so we was just it was families and Um just back then as well there was no satnavs so travelers had to use like landmarks or junction 10 of the M6 or certain things and that just be stuck in your memory. Do you know what I mean? Like today it's all sat navs and stuff. That's why I think I probably have a dead good sense of navigation cuz of being on the road from young when my dad would always like wanting to know where we are where what we know. Do you know what I'm saying? >> When's the first time you got into trouble? Uh, first I went into trouble was about 10. Yeah, about 10. What' you do? Steal a car. Well, I was caught in a stolen car. Sorry, I didn't steal the car, but I was in the car at like 10:00. That was my first like took home. I didn't get arrested or nothing. Just got brought home to my mom. Do you know what I mean? >> What' she say? >> No, she's just like, "Why did you get caught?" That's all she ever used to say. Do you know what I mean? She It's just why did you get caught? or why is it always you? But um that um that estate where we grew up there, James, to be honest, it sad me and all of my mates from my generation, we all wanted to go to prison. It was like a right of passage. So um people you see people when you you get arrested and if you don't go to prison at first time, you'll be on some kind of like youth probation called yacht youth offending team. So when you go there, you see all of the other little kids that are just coming out of jail and you're hearing the stories and then it's like you you just want to go to jail just so you can be like him. So I've just got out. >> You sound stupid but that's the way it was. I believe it's like that today still. >> Yeah. You earned your stripes like people from the streets that feel as if it's a badge of honor not realizing it's backwards. But if you've not got anything, if you've got that camaraderity with camaraderie with other boys in sort of prison, you feel as if you should be there because it gives you your stripes. >> It gives you your stripes. But it's it's it's so stupid because to be honest, I of all I've said for the last 20 odd years is all I want to be is a criminal. I'm 40. Me, James. I've only just got a bank account. Only just got a contract phone. Never had a job in my life. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm 40 years of age. Two children. Never had a job. Never. only just got a bank account, only just got identification. These kind of things like like make people that was in my year at school that just good lads but stayed on the straight and narrow. They're miles ahead of me now. Do you know what I'm saying? And I've run through bare door on the roads, but it's it's pointless. Now I'm working legit doing something honest. I'm earning more money than I ever have in my life. >> Safer. >> It's safer. I don't have to worry about stuff. When was the first time you ended up when did you >> What age? >> Uh 15 by yours. >> Yeah. No, no, I was juvenile. Um >> so yeah, juvenile >> detention center. >> Nice. Juven, you have secure unit which is from 14 to 15. Oh, from 10 to 15 is secure unit and then juvenile is 15 to 18. So yeah, it was in Wittton House in Stoke. It's proper prison. um wings everything like that. That's not room proper wings cell door protar prison but yeah that was like the taste of it for me and then that was like it was just I was in and out after that first time it was just like constant you know what I'm saying and that that's where I met a sort of person um it's called Ricker um basically everyone in Sulford knows him um and but I was young I met him there first and I was only him for stealing a car do you know what I'm saying he was a robber, but he like um he he had a massive effect on my life from from that age. Do you know what I'm saying? Cuz I was like he switched me on to like robbing. And then I was like, "Yeah, that's what I want to do." And he was very successful for his age as well. Do you know what I'm saying? The guy's done a lot of jail, don't get me wrong, but um he was very very successful. And uh yeah, it was something like I just wanted to think, yeah, I want to be like that. Do you know what I'm saying? I don't want to just steal cars. I what I do that me and that was it. >> So what were you doing? Robberies. >> Robberies. Yeah. >> What was your first robbery >> or one the first one you get done for? >> Um yeah the the one I got done for was um a jewelers called David Robinsons. David M Robinson's in Ultran just outside of Manchester. Um and rammed it slapped a Granada through the Rolex display window. Got caught. But I always believe that when something happens to me, it's meant to happen. And basically when I got caught then it was 2005 and it was 27th of March and in 2005 a week after to the day the laws changed when uh IP got introduced the 4th of April 2005 IP was introduced. Yeah. which is basically a life sentence night. If they put you in prison on that, they do not have to let you out ever. You know, if you don't get parole, you don't get out. So, I just come home for an aggravated burglary where we've like took the door off for car keys. So, that's class as a bad crime. It's like a robber. And then, um when I got arrested, basically it was a week before. So, we fell under the old law. So if I would have got arrested a week later, which I would have anyway because we was active non every day, sometimes two a day. Um, and if I would have gotten it then, I'd probably still be in jail now. Would have got IP. Do you know what I'm saying? Cuz we're the kind of people um we don't get decat. Me and Jordan have never had decat. Just then, all of my codefendants was in decat 2 years before they got out. So for 2 years, they was in open prison going home to the families. All of that. I didn't get none of that, mate. I didn't get a CCAT until my last year. And then in my last year, I got a CCAT. I went to four different CCATs. They was moving me like every three months and just release me. So, so unsettled me like that. Keep moving me, moving me, moving me. Then to just throw me out after 10 years. It was It was a mad one. >> What was your sentence? >> Uh, it was 18 years. >> That's what you got? >> Yeah. >> What did you get out the What did you get out the jewels? >> Oh, no. The jewelers. I got I got a five. So, basically jewelers. >> What did you get? Anything? Now we got what's happened. We've um as we've rammed the window, there's a security car van across the road and that's it's at the bank filling up and he's rammed my car. So we was with I was with another Sulford kid. Shout Danny again. My mate Danny Mackey come back and help me. We was with two other kids from Manchester. So we basically only just met up with them. We'd gone out to do something and we ended up bumping into these kids cuz we was both following the same thing. And then the lads that was with us from Sulford, a couple of older lads, they wasn't with the jewelers cuz it had not been planned. We thought they sculpt it, but it not been planned proper. We didn't know where this we didn't have a spot to park the second car and the best route home, all of that thing. So, they was a bit more meticulous in their planning because they was a bit older. I was a bit more I'm not asked. I I want to slap some. I want some dough. And yeah, so we've ended up jumping in the car with these other two kids, three kids. Me and my one pal jumped in this car, the stolen car with these other three kids from Manchester, from South Manchester. And um yeah, basically they got off when when u we've been rammed. They've ended up getting off. >> So the security cor would get involved >> exactly, mate. Do you know what I'm saying? I don't know. But yeah, I basically got nipped there by >> the corers wouldn't even do that. >> No, but he should have got in trouble for that. He should have minded his own business. >> But he would have been classed as a hero in his own life. >> Yeah. And it was heroes that jumped on us as well. Wasn't just him. Like he's rammed the car and when we've my mates come, we've got out. >> You have bales on. >> Yeah, bal swords and yeah, basically it was like rugby players that jumped on us, man. Like sail sharks, fucking rugby players or some shit like that cuz right into the sail. Do you know what I'm saying? >> So the guy in the security core van is there dropping off money, seen a robbery. >> We was following him before. This is how I met these kids. It's it's ironic, mate. Yeah. We was following this van and then these kids have started following it. So we're like a few vehicles behind. Dave come in front of us straight away. We said that's pl. We thought that's double. Police had those cars at the time. And um yeah, then we've clocked two it was and we knew them. Me and my mate knew two of them kids. and we was chatting and it's like yeah come on we'll go and do it. We we said we've got a jeweler's name but we know that jewelers yet it's heavy jewelers. >> So yeah do you know what I mean? >> Was all the watches legit back then cuz they change all now watches on the shop window changed all the insides. >> This place is like the rocks Edinburgh. >> Do you know what I'm saying? That's what this place was like. Do you know what I mean? The dogs bollocks. >> So what you thinking then when you get a five your bigger sentence? >> Yeah. So at that time I just done two years before that I just been in for 2 years. Yeah. From like 03 to 05. Come home in 05. I'm out for 4 weeks getting it. Doing this rob. >> You're the oldest brother? >> No. Got an older brother 9 years old. Jim. Yeah. >> What was his prison? >> Jim, then me, then Jerry, then Jordan's the baby. >> So what was his Was he in and out of prison? >> Yeah, he was in and out of prison all my life. When I was young, he was same juvenile. So my dad was gone. My big brother was gone. And I said this before, to be honest, James, I never wanted to be a robber. I never wanted to be a criminal. I wanted to just be a tarmacer. That's all I wanted to be. I wanted to be what my daddy was. I loved it. I love going out in the L. I love the smell of tarmac. I love knocking doors. I love finding work. Do you know what I mean? That's all I wanted to ever do. And then I got exposed to certain things in Sulford like and even just movies like um the general about Martin Kahill the the um from Dublin >> he's the robber. Yeah. Um John Matt Vicker from England the great bookie robber. So cuz people in cuz Sulford's such a staunch stronghold of top robbers. When I got there I didn't know like that that was going to infect me and then whilst that infected me I was like yeah this is what I want to do 100%. Also, I wanted to be accepted by my peers. Faced a lot of bullying and a lot of discrimination wherever we went cuz with my mom and then we talked like travelers. So, it wasn't just in Little Luton and in Sulford. It was before even we got there other places wherever I was going. Always fighting and then I've got little brothers and sisters. I always got to protect them as well. So, always fighting no matter what. It used to be like I didn't even want to go to the shop with my sister cuz I'd be that scared thinking if someone says something to her I'm going to have to do something and um cuz it was like every day it was the ' 90s and people wasn't used to seeing travelers on council estates. Do you know what I mean? So we we faced a lot of discrimination and um for me just to get rid of that I was willing to do anything. So once I realized if I start showing that I'm game or I'll get through that window or I'll do that that these people started to accept me and yeah so then I just played into that alter ego of do you know what I mean? >> Do you think that's what it's all about is just trying to find acceptance no matter if it's right or wrong. >> Yeah. Massive. Massive. >> Did you feel like an outcast? >> Yeah. Always I always felt like you know what I'm saying like an outcast. Yeah. on the peripheral where everyone else was like community and stuff. I didn't now I do I feel a part of it and I love those people. I love Little Hton. Um it's you know the salt of the earth people. I don't blame them for the way they was. I understand that people are scared of something they don't understand and where do you know what I mean? and and also it's just a bit of banter. But when when you're like um used to feeling like you and your family are different to everybody else and people call his names and stuff like that. Yeah. It just you kind of get like thing you know what I mean. >> So you got a five. What are you thinking then when you got a bigger sentence? Did you feel you were then earning more stripes that you were doing bigger sentences? You were doing LTPS like >> Yeah. So So >> what did you go to? Um Hinled that shout hinled that was like all of us um from Sulford that's our jail for juveniles and young offenders. It's an adult prison now. It's a CCAT but growing up that was like the toughest jail in the north at Hindler and it was just so mons and scousers basically it's in Wigan so it's in between Wiggins in between Manchester and Liverpool. So yeah, that was like the start of everything once you get to Hindler and you realize Yeah, man. And then you realize as well people that Sulford is uh you know, I've had this conversation with you before, James, uh when we spoke a few months ago, Sulford's one of them cities. I don't know how much you know about it, but it's one of them cities where like if you go to that sitter, you'll become an adopted son of that sitter. You you will you'll feel patriotic towards it. If you live there, see if it's only for 6 weeks, that will be forever in your heart. It's one of them kind of places. It's it's it's it's a river sitter. And um some of the best robbers in the world come from there. And that's not just me saying it up. That's a fact from around the UK, but also around the world. other neighborhoods. If you take Sulford and take the percentage like the per capita of people that get involved in serious robberies well or serious organized crime from young that's sulford remember the Ben Affleck and everybody was a bas or 60% were robbers a mad stat I don't even I think I've just butchered that there I can't remind but I remind it was such a high stat that the town became it's a true story I actually reached out to him and it was he get out of prison but then just get back into >> the real the real guy. I seen him. >> They get back in for another robber. He's back in again. They whack the guards on the truck, didn't they? Then the truck whack the guards. >> Unbelievable movie that great. Listen, I like Ben Affleck. I love Ben Affleck. I love um Matt Damon, Matt W. I like all them guys coming out of Boston. >> Um all them actors, I really really like them. I think they they make great films. But I, you know, Paul Ferris from your bits. >> Yeah, the We Man, >> the We Man, Paul Ferris. Um so when I was away years ago I was reading his book and when Paul got nit down here in London and uh MI5 sting buying um machine guns. Yeah. >> And um when he got nit so he was in the the English prison system and he says in his book cuz uh Paul Mass rest in peace Paul looked after him. Bobby and I looked after him. Shout out Bob. Uh yeah. So when he was in the British system, he said himself like the lads from Sulford are the greatest lads. He said that you I've never met people like them and they looked after me more than anybody in the English system. They also said they're different to everybody else in England. And we are and that's true. Um obviously the robberies, there's a lot of drugs now. In the '90s there wasn't that much drugs, but the organized crime was rife. Every every kid now thinks he's a gangster in today. Um they wear they drive around them snidey bikes with with a snidey belly on or you might have a knife and that don't make you a gangster. Yeah. But in their mind they think yeah I'm bad to watch the movie or some rap song or something. But when I was growing up 99% of kids at my age 15 16 17 really did think they was like a mafia boss. Do you know what I'm saying? and they didn't think they they in their their mentality because you see it in the jails when we're in jail from young or also for kids will always back each other like no matter what they could be 10 12 kids if there's only two are using them showers you will die next to each other like the the solidarity what was in Sulford was unmatched and I've seen I've been around it's it was unmatched and you just see the way we was and the way certain other people was just the way they talk or The graph did talk about we was way more advanced at our age. The kids aren't like that today in Sulford. I think we was like that last generation to do you know what I'm saying before the internet came. >> Do you think you were starting to adapt to prison life more? >> Yeah. Too too easy. >> Does that become your life? >> Do you know what I think James to be honest traveling around a lot as a kid helped me with prison. >> Why? >> Because you not feel trapped? >> No. Because Yeah. Definitely felt trapped. I want to be free. But what I'm saying is meeting new people and having to like do you know what I'm saying? So we'd have to go to schools in different areas and stuff be like school here for two three days then starting a new school. So always having to fight and like um fight for my respect. Do you know what I mean? And like demand my respect that help me like nah, you know what I'm saying? So going to prison was just like for me it's just another school. Do you know what I'm saying? and there's going to be people there that I don't know and I'm going to have to fight or whatever. I'm going I'm going to have to like make my mark here and that was just exactly what I was doing in different schools every time I was going from school. >> How was it when your ma was coming up to see you obviously her son in prison, her husband in prison, she just used to it. >> If anyone knows me ma, they'll know I was always happy when she came to visit. >> Do you know what I'm saying? >> She just used to that. She just >> She's done a bit of porridge myself. Herself m she's done a little bit. So she understood in it. Yeah, she's done a bit herself. But to to be honest, she could she could write about me mommy because >> she's there's probably about five or six jails and they're probably the new ones that she's not visited in this country. I've seen me daddy me my brother Jim Jordan or any of my friends cuz she used to visit a lot of my friends as well. Do you know what I mean? So uh she used to visit my mates and shit. So and she's done a bit of porridge herself. She has visited a lot of jails in this country. And >> see, when you get out after your five, was it just straight back to work then? No thoughts of changing your life? No. No. Straight back. Yeah. Straight back. Straight back at it, mate. Like boom. Do you know what I'm saying? >> Um I didn't ever want to do anything other than that. Like once I was in it, I just didn't I just looked at someone who's going to work or doing anything legal as a fucking mug. Do you know what I'm saying? Now I realized I was the mug, but it was just that mentality. I was thinking I'm like I'm gonna hit a hat and gardens one day. Do you know what I'm saying? So a lot of robbers have that mind frame of like that big graft will come. But if you're stealing money and then waiting for it to run out and then going to steal more money, it's inevitable that you're going to go to prison. >> The law of averages. >> Yeah. The bigger the turn, I think, >> the more likely you're more to get caught. Look, we have done Lee Murray won. >> Yeah, >> I think it was 50 odd 60 million. >> 53 million, man. Free Murray. >> What a that was and they had to leave millions behind >> the gold the gold one billion. I don't think everyone get caught. I don't think the gold >> Brinks Mickey >> that was like that's probably about 78 mil today. That was 26 million. >> Um yeah, I don't think a lot of people went missing because of that as well, didn't they? But I don't think everyone got nicked on that. There just some top robbers coming out of London. Freddy Foreman, he was like to be honest, Fred Freddy Foreman is probably my favorite London gangster out of them all. Like it's definitely be Freddy Foreman. And um he was a top robber as well. He done Security Express. I think he got they got about 6 million >> in the 80s. Probably about 20 30 mil today. Do you know what I mean? >> The great train robbery as well. I think >> 69 that Yeah. >> Yeah. It was it the World Cup was 66. I think it was 69. Yeah. Because they got 30s. That was a bit of sad because they got 30s the same in like the same decade. They just gave the K's 30s for a body a piece >> and they fucking >> Yeah. One of them end up in Brazil. I think he get part of cancer. Ronnie. >> Yeah. Ronny big. Yeah. He had a good life though, didn't he? He was out there for years. >> Yeah. Never. >> Do you know what they do? Do you know they kidnapped him? >> Where? >> The the British. Do you not know that? >> Yeah. But they couldn't bring him back. >> No. They kidnapped him and brought him to an island in the Caribbean, near Jamaica. And then it's like, yeah, you've broke the law. You can't you can't um you can't do that. So, he he escaped again basically. So, they've got him thinking we're getting him, bringing him home. >> I think it was some fucking vigilantes, mate, trying to get a reward or something. >> And um yeah, but it's just a shout to um the British government, man. Don't cross them cuz they do not let you slide. >> If they want you, they'll get you. >> No, listen. Listen. And what they did to runner, they brought him back with cancer, right? And his deathbed, a fragile old man now, right? And not that the guy's fragile to any of his family or nothing. He's one of my heroes, Ronnie Pigs. But he was frail. He was in his elder age. Yeah. Riddled with a disease. They still slapped him into the jug. And just the way they've treated Curtis Warren um like since he's he's got out of Amsterdam and then they stitched him up gave him that sentence for the shit in Jersey but put him in a cafe a prison in England and cuz it was a Jersey law where they got a sentence you do the full term. Do you know what I'm saying? So they made him do his full term here and they're still going at him now even though he has no license just for crime prevention or whatever. It's if you make a mockery of the British, the crown, the state and laugh at them, they will come for you, bro. >> Yeah. They'll make everybody get extradity from Dubai now. Big players. If they want you, they'll get you. They'll create a new law. They'll get something put in place for you to get >> this country definitely will and they hold. But the UK, >> UK, I believe, is the strongest out of everyone. They've got so much power them in America, but I even think UK is above them. >> Of course, we are. people like America. Yeah. Um just is m you uh England's puppet. They're just there to do whatever England say and they can take the blame for it. Do you know what I mean? It's basically it's a genius idea if you think of it. This country is way more your country. Your country, bro. The jocks. Let's talk about the the the Scots. The Scotsman. I they have a massive part in running the world. Yeah. A massive part. People don't realize. Um Christopher Columbus, his father-in-law was Henry Sinclair of Clan Sinclair, one of the most prominent Knights, Templars. Um the Romans built a wall up there cuz they were scared of whatever was behind the wall. um the the queen uh the the great Elizabeth, she went up there to die. Every single monarch in the last thousand years has to when they have their coronation, they have to do it on the uh the stone of scone which is in Scotland. It stays in Scotland. Um, also 90% of every single president of the United States is Scottish heritage. Washington DC is built along Messianic lines. Yeah. The geometry where the buildings are. The oldest meionic lodge in the world is in Scotland. >> That's where it started. >> Yeah. That's where it started. Do you know what I'm saying? And also every war in the last thousand years, there's been a Scotsman involved in that war in one way. >> That kind of makes me proud, me. >> Yeah, you should be proud cuz cuz once you realize you're like, "Wow, Scotland." Cuz you look we just look at it as I'm I'm for independence as well for Scotland. Don't get me wrong. >> I'm independent. I should I believe independence should be everywhere in the world. I believe everybody should have control of their own country, but we don't. Scotland is a woke country now. It's become softer. It's become weaker. has forgot who the fuck it is. It used to fight for freedom and independence. >> Yeah, man. Scots the Scots like listen, they will rise up, mate. 100%. This the Scots I remember something, right? And it stuck in my head and obviously I think it's just been an anniversary of William Wallace as well. Yeah. But I remember there was an attack in Scotland. Yeah. At the airport. The guy was in a Cherokee. I think he was like some doctor or something, but the jeeps ended up blowing up or some shit right at the airport. You remember it? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Over a decade ago, but >> the baggage handler from the airport had him and he said, "If you come to Scotland, we'll set a boot." Yeah. >> Yeah. I just thought I think his name was >> Yeah. Yeah. And I just remember and I thought, "Yeah, that's that's the Scots. They were on fire." And he was fucking >> Yeah. Yeah. But he said, "We'll fucking set a bit." Yeah. And I thought, "Yeah, man." Like, >> yeah. They've got that fighting blood, the Celtics. You know what I'm saying? But I just think the whole world is the fuller divide. It's full of hate. It's full of madness now. And Scotland has become a vote country, which is sad to see and I'd like to think they will rise, but a lot of people are scared, but that's understandable. So, growing up, kids, footballers, other idols, you've got gangsters and robbers. Like, do you believe that then that's only going to propel you for prison because your sort of role models are criminals? >> Yeah. So, yeah, because that's all I'm looking at them and thinking, I want to do that. I want to be better than what he's done. I want to be bigger than that. And it's just um it's a slippery slope because you're surrounded by other people that are doing it and you're always finding ways to make it sound normal and do you know what I'm saying? And justify things when really it's not it's a fucked up life to live to um to go out and steal things off other people. It's not good to do and I'm not proud of it. And I've got my own hands and feet what God gave me to go out and get my own stuff. I shouldn't have to go and steal other people's. So I I feel like that now sincerely and I'm fought her. But back then it's hard to feel like that because all I wanted to do was have money because we was very poor. Do you know what I'm saying? My mom was on her own. She didn't have her her family. She'd run away from my dad. So she didn't even want people to know where we was. So my mom, don't get me wrong, she got a hustle on and she did exactly what she everything she could to get exactly what we needed. Whether it was Christmas, Easter, new uniform. So she did her best, but the poverty was still there. We was poor. Do you know what I mean? We might have had the little things, but we was still poor. And I'm thinking like most other people, this is the fast track out of poverty. I'm going to be able to rob a million pound. But even back then like a hundred grand you was it was massive money you know like now you don't look at it the same but back then 30 odd years ago that's all I was thinking and you know cash machines held 100 grand you know what I'm saying after your five what happened >> so after my five um I got back with my beautiful wife man like we'd had a little break we've been together since we was 15 um on we we've known each other since she was like 13 and 12 or some shit lived on the same street and then yeah um I asked her to be my girlfriend and when we was kids and then yeah we was boyfriend I don't even think it was real was it like it was boyfriend and girlfriend and then we was together for like 3 4 years split up and I was an idiot I was a young man do you know what I mean and I didn't I wasn't the best guy to her the way I should have been and uh yeah I was in and out of prison I was putting my mates before her do you know what I mean and I wanted to be out with the lads rather than be with her. So we split up and we was apart for like 5 years. We was apart from 03 to08 and then I come home in 08. We got back together and she I stayed out of trouble relatively then. This might sound a bit warped but it's um it's the way the criminal mindset think. So I'm thinking I'm selling drugs. I'm thinking I'm a straight head now. Do you know what I mean? because I'm thinking I'm not out doing robberies that I'm this is straight. So I was doing drugs and stuff but I hated that I've ever got involved in that. I hate drugs you know. >> What'd you end up back in prison for? >> Um I didn't go back to prison then in 2008 till 2015. >> What was that for? >> For firearms. >> So you done for firearms? What was the sentence? >> Yeah. 18 years >> you know. >> So what you thinking then? Life sentence. Yeah, I was feeling clear. >> So you stayed out of trouble between then trying to make money. >> Mrs. and my kids. Yeah, I was doing drugs. Do you know >> you became a father for the first time? >> Yeah, I became a father. >> How was that for you? >> That was a massive shock to the system for me that because once my kids was it's like it's scar as a man to think right that I've got to protect these. So, it changed me from wanting to go out and do robberies and do those um more daring things cuz you got to be daring to really go and put hit the pavement like that. You can't be halfhearted. It's not for the weak or the faint-hearted. So, once my children was there, I knew that I can't step like that. I've not got it in me in no way cuz of the fear of going away from my children. So, yeah, that made me like change. Um, but to be honest, I was still an idiot. I still wanted to be a gangster. Like still a sausage. Do you know what I'm saying? Like I'm not leading, for example, for my people, for my children. I'm I'm still thinking I'm fucking the big man. Do you know what I'm saying? So, I'm still carrying myself like that. Like, yeah. Oh, I want all that attention. I want people to think these kind of things. Like, now I don't give a shit what people think. Why should I? Do you know what I mean? Think Elon Musk cares if I just say he's a dick. He's not asked, is he? Do you know what I mean? Like, so >> yeah. But >> how was it getting an 18 then? You've got your messes. You've got two kids, >> mate. To be honest, yeah, I took that on the chin like boom cuz I was expecting higher. So I was thinking it was four shootings. Do you know what I'm saying? Conspiracy four shootings over like a two, three day period. And yeah, so I was thinking I'm getting fucking lambs. Yeah. or like a ads where I got to do two/3 of it or something. Do you know what I mean? But it was even though I wasn't saying, "Oh, I could have got worse or it was a stitch up me. I shouldn't have got that long. All I did was got my friend a gun." Do you know what I'm saying? Friends phon me to get a strap and that was it. >> Yeah. But that is conspiracy cuz if he kills two bodies, you're you're doing this the bigger you're doing more than him. >> Yeah, basically. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? I got longer than him. >> I never done anything. She's got a big gun. >> Yeah. No, I know. But but then let me just let let me give a bit of context to that. So >> yeah, I understand what you're saying, but obviously >> No, no, no. So what I'm saying is Yeah. that that was what I was um accused of of facilitating a firearm. But by the time I got sentenced, I was sentenced as a shooter. Do you know what I'm saying? So really, I should have got a 10 for facilitating a firearm. But by the time sentence come, the indictment has been changed around. I'm the leader of the OCG. Yeah. And I'm a shooter now. Do you know what I'm saying? And we'd already gone guilty. So they gone guilty. Then 4 months later it got changed. I don't want to get into that why it got changed, but yeah, it got changed and I got put as um a shooter. So I got 18 years. >> What the deal? >> If you didn't play, you would have got 25. >> No. So basically I got my credit was 18 years and the credit brought it down to 17 years 2 months. So they took 10 months off but guess what I got that 10 months put back on in jail for phones. I got jail for an iPhone. I got jail for a Zanc call to get get an extra time added on. >> What year were you in? Uh I was in Strangeways, GRA, Strangeways, G Full Sutton, Dovegate, Oakwood, Fosway, Earl Stoke, Portland. Got released from Portland. I've done I've done about 25 30 prisons in my life, but >> mostly >> done 10. Um um I don't know. >> All the same. >> Yeah. Like a shovel's a shovel to Strange ways is fucking >> Strange ways is home in it. It's very violent right now. It's the vi most violent prison in >> um the country. But we're um we are the most unruly prisoners. James mate Manunians the the POA openly say that that the manunians are the most unruly prisoners in the prison system. um us and the scouses because of the strange ways riots they've not forgot that it was a month took the full prison for um or 25 days. So the cons for 25 days had the full run of the prison and that's something that the POA and they don't forget lightly. So, wherever the monks are around the prison system, because this is another thing, this country is a very small uh prison population. Um, even though we lock up twice as many as any other European country, we we've got more prisons. There's probably more prisons in London than there is in Germany. This is a like a fact. Honestly, Germany, France, they have small amounts of prisons. We have like some cities have five or six prisons in here, but there's 70 million people in the country. Yeah. There's um 87,000 is the British estate for prisons. So say if 20,000 of them are like women, another 10,000 of them are like um young offenders. Yeah. Then you've got like another 10,000 maybe 20,000 nons. Yeah. Then another 10,000 accidental criminals like wrong place, wrong time, there's probably 10,000 hardcore villains in the system. And if you've gone once and you're one of you're always going to see one of them, do you know what I mean? No matter what uh establishment you're in in the country. I've never since my very first time to jail, I've never been back to jail and not know. Never. So, in a nutshell, the whole British prison system could fit inside the Wembley Stadium. Do you know what I mean? So, that lets you know it's not that big. If you've ever been to a game at Wembley or something, the whole British, everybody who's locked up in England could fit inside of Wembley Stadium. >> What's the worst thing you've seen in prison? Um, I've seen like to be honest, yeah, the worst thing I've seen in prison is probably self harms. Do you know what I mean? I've seen some bad self harm happening. And I've seen a lot of stabbings and slashings and stuff like that. Yeah. But you can wrap your head around that cuz you know, you're in the jungle, it's survival. But the the self harm I've seen people do to the self that certain things you can't unsee. It'll never like that'll never leave you. Do you know what I'm saying? I've seen guys cut his own eyelids off, his own ears, nose, his own lip. I've seen a guy that has got no skin on his body to cut himself no more. He has to cut old cuts. Do you know what I'm saying? because he's literally James he's cut himself that many times that he can't he can't do it no more. So um that's probably the worst thisest thing I've seen in prisoners and also see a man to see a man break see a man break especially if it's someone you respect someone you like and you see them go and then it's usually over a woman. Do you know what I mean? And you see a man go like that, that ain't nice because that's I'm I'm when I if I love you, I love very deep. And if I see you hurt, I'm an empath. I hurt also. And I've seen a couple of my friends like lose their head and not being able to help them or do anything for them and then have to hurt other people, staggering them off and stuff cuz you can't once someone's gone, you can't start back on them all of the time. Like people talk it is reality is what it is. Do you know what I mean? So when you heard that and you see someone that you looked up to and had the greatest respect for and stuff, then you see them go and yeah, man, just let lose the selfrespect and stuff. And then those kind of things are hard. >> Jordan sings about it. Your your dad passed away in prison. >> Yeah, my dad passed away in prison. >> When was this? >> 2016 September 2000. >> Yeah. >> Did that play in your mind when you're in prison? >> Yeah. Cuz the Jordan not saying I think he's done a song where was in the same sail as your dad. >> Yeah, man. That's a mad one. Jordan was actually on the same landing. >> Is that true? >> Yeah, Jordan was on the same landing as my dad. Yeah. Um I've never been there, but my big brother's been in Preston and Jordan's been in Preston. I went once. Uh I've been in a visit I visited my dad in there. I visited Jordan in there. I had a fight on the visit with Jordan in there. Me and Jordan had the mass fight. Remember, babe? I gone to visit him, me and my mom. I've ended up having a scrap on the visit, but I know what it was cuz when I've walked in that visit, I'm in this jail and I know my daddy's died in there and that's the last place I see my dad was in alive was in that jail. So now I'm visiting my dad's youngest son in there. It must have just brought all of these emotions because I've ended up shouting at him at stuff on and God love him in his own little mind. He's probably going through his own motions and I'm coming on a visit screaming at him and he's just fucking smack me. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I've got ced dragged out the visit. He's just fucking But I'm shouting at him. I'm like, you you need to stop this for mom. You're fucking Do you know what I'm saying? When really I have no right to speak to him like that big brother or not cuz I could treated my mom just as bad as him and caused her just as much stress. But I just think it was the emotions of being in that building knowing where my daddy was last. Yeah. And um yeah, another time I did go in there, James de James, I was in in Lancaster Farms as a juvenile young offenders prison. And um I was going So it was coming from Lancaster. You pass through Preston into Manchester. So um they stopped off at Preston to pick someone up that they're bringing to court. I'm on my way to court in Manchester and I'm like to the jail. Let me off. I need a piss. They say no. Cuz in my I think I want to go in there. I want to walk in here. I've never been in this prison at the reception. So I'm like, if you don't let me off, I'm going to piss here now. So I'm like, right, I'm going to fucking piss in the cubicle. And they've unlocked me, brought me in. And I've walked into the reception. Didn't even use the toilet. As soon as I walked into the reception, I just said, "Nah, get me out of here." Just felt it. A lot of people that have been in that prison tell me it's a hell hole, Preston. But yeah, um to be honest, um while we're on that subject, my dad, yeah, he he he basically killed himself because he took tablets. But my personal view is I don't think he committed suicide. I don't think he intentionally killed himself. Killed himself by consuming those tablets. Um but he didn't leave a note for his family. This was a very proud man. Loved his family. James, seven children and a wife at home. Um me myself being in jail for years knowing like there's no way people don't do that. People say what's going on and why. And he never left the note. And also he pressed his belt, his um cell buzzer, emergency buzzer. He pressed that. So um yeah, if if um a man was trying to kill himself intentionally, I don't think he would have pressed the bell and um I think he would have left a note for his family. >> See, when you're doing an 18, do you feel potentially you could have died in prison as well where you think it could be the same >> when you're doing such a big sentence? Does that play in? >> My fear was I'm going to die in there. That's all I That's all my whole that last 10. That's all I was thinking is I'm going to die in here and know I am cuz I was just thinking is history repeating itself. >> I'm going to die in here. My ch like me daddy. What you have to understand about me dad as well? Um shout big Jim Mac legend. My daddy. Yeah. He's he he he was in the bed with my grandfather when my grandfather died. My daddy was only seven. Jordan was seven when he his dad died. Six, seven. And um so my dad got us into bed is doing they're in a camp in Manchester. So on in caravans and my dad gets in with my grandfather in the bed and my dad has a little tangerine. Yeah. And my grandfather saying, "Give me some, give me some." And he never gave him some. And then when when my daddy woke up in the morning, my grandfather was dead in the bed stone cold. So um yeah then that's that ended up being my dad staying in Manchester then and my dad was actually my dad's a sford was born in Sulford my dad yeah um but his full traveler his his mom was a ward his dad was a man shout my granny winning man and and my grandfather Jim as well but when my grandfather died in Manchester that was then my granny stayed in Manchester whereas we probably wouldn't my dad and I wouldn't have stayed if my grandfather was alive they would have stayed traveling, they probably would have more been in the West Midlands, but when my grandfather died on that camp, um it was in ' 66 and um yeah, 1966. 1966. So when that happened, she stayed in Manchester. So my dad, similar to me, he was brought up in a house. Yeah. Until he was about 15, 16. Then my great uncles, my dad's uncles, they've come and picked him up and brought him to the Midlands and been like, "Look," cuz he's getting brought up on the council estate, single mom, they've showed him the way, like, "Come on, this is what you do." And um he was one of the best men in the country, my dad, to get work. Like the jobs he got, everybody wanted to be partners with me daddy. Everybody wanted to work with him, people from all different families cuz he could get to work. And then he'd always come back to Manchester and everything would just fuck up. >> Can you see this sort of cycle? You visiting your dad in prison, your kids visiting you in prison. >> Yeah. >> Somebody needs to break the chain. >> You say that. Yeah, James. But to be honest, like I know exactly who I am. I know exactly what blood runs through my veins. Yeah. And I'm under no illusions, mate, of what my ancestors have been through. And I'd say, "Oh, Centra, my bloodline's got a millennia of British prisons, mate. Whether they're colony prisons around the world or the stone concrete walls on the mainland. So, I'm not under no I'm not we're not unique. My family aren't unique. Do you know what I'm saying? I know this is this is what runs through my veins and this is probably what my grandchildren go through. Like, you know what I'm saying? You just accept that. That's just the sort of madness it is in >> against the famine and the crown. Like it is what it is, mate. You can't escape that. Yeah, we might have more technology and it's 2026, but I'm not under no illusion who I am and who my people are, where I come from, and what I won't stand for and what I will stand for. So, if if I have to stand for something Yeah. and that might mean prison, I'll stand for that. Not a problem. Cuz like I said, I know where I come from. >> Do you know what I mean? >> When did you get out? >> August 21st, 2025. >> So, still very recently. >> How was it getting out after the big one? >> Oh, man. Because as you get older, you do start look at life a little differently. >> There's a lot of people, big percentage of people do go back no matter what sentence they do. >> But what you thinking then after the big one, 2025, when you get out, >> mate? It was a hard one, you know, because like I'm gonna be honest, mate. I come home, James, to no family, bro. Do you know what I'm saying? I come home to my wife and my two children. Um, like it was a bad I had to get a train home. Yeah. I had to get a train home from Portland. Basically, Portland's an island off the coast of Dorset. Yeah. It's an old proper old Victorian prison. It's a little island called Portland. And yeah, man. I had I had to get a train home from there with all of these things in my mind thinking shit. Then I come home, I get to the train station and it's just my beautiful wife and my two children. Do you know what I mean? And I wouldn't have wanted anybody else to be there. Don't get me wrong, but yeah, it was like a bit of a shock to me. Like I was like, "Wow, coming home like this, everything I'd done for my fucking town, my estate." Like, and yeah, mate, it's just one of them. It took a bit for me to get my head wrapped around things, but what it was, I'd been, you know, I've been arguing with my family and stuff before I come home and probably also I'm Muslim. I'm coming home Muslim. Do you know what I'm saying? So like in the last um 10 months of my sentence, I took my shahada, I became Muslim. So that's a massive shock for my family, bro. The um the Irish Catholics, do you know what I mean? So, um I think that must that would have played a part in it. But, you know, I've got friends also got cousins and friends that I would have died for. I don't speak to them no more cuz I'm Muslim. These are people that I would have really died for. Yeah. And people that I love that I still love. And you know, if God wants them people back in my life, then he'll soften their hearts. If he doesn't, I don't care. Do you know what I'm saying? >> So, you're a Catholic man, raised Christian. >> I was raised Catholic. Yeah. And then so why obviously >> what about you? What are you? >> I'm Catholic. >> You're Catholic? Yeah. >> But in prison system >> a lot of people become >> I thought you was rangers fan. >> Nah Celtic bro. >> My family are all rangers. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. >> Yeah. Is um so a lot of people go Muslim. A lot of the white guys go Muslim for the the extra perks. We know that when they come out they don't really follow up. What was the idea behind it? How would you go Christianity to Islam? So basically the years and years of what I've been through in jail. So obviously online I got a lot of people going Muslim convert and like they don't know. They're looking at me thinking fat guy. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I know I'm not stupid. They don't know that I'm a motherfucker. Do you know what I'm saying? And like I've I've been this for me. Jail is nothing. No, no man has ever like ever in any prison in this country has ever violated me and got away with it inside of a prison. So, and if um Muslims in um the prisons, a lot of people do turn Muslim in prison. Yeah. Because not um nobody's compelled because in Islam you can't you cannot make I can't make you become a believer. I can't pressure you to accept this because then your heart's not in it. But a lot of people do it in prison. It's like fashion. So a lot of London kids and stuff are like it's like like it's a fashion thing. Do you know what I'm saying? So but that's like with anything there's going to be a stigma attached to it. But for me, um, the biggest thing in Islam for me was finding this peace because I'm so internally conflicted. Also, no, I've I've like I'm a student of scripture and um, nothing has ever settled my questions of where we are in the universe. Um, where are standing like we're just on this rock spinning through space. Yeah. around a massive ball of fire like I'm I'm I'm a ponderer. I always think in me James and today as we stand in 2026 lot even me and you lots of other people we don't really have our own thoughts. I know we think we do but we wasn't made to process this much data and imagery what we do today. We could process I could process it this morning just on my phone probably more imagery than a man 1500 years ago did in his lifetime I could do in one day. >> Your brain Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Your brain is just a computer. >> So our subconscious is littered with stuff that was not ours. the the ancients people the the like the in Mesopotamia the ancient Greeks and the ancient Egyptians these people they just had the stars at night to ponder and stuff and think so there's so many great thinkers and philosophers back then but so they us we have a lot of other shit in our mind so cuz I've done lots and lots of solitary even without a book James even without a Bible you get to find your own thoughts back and your own things. So with me, I've always been respectful to every religion, but I was Islamophobic because I was such a staunch Catholic and I was had a fear that Islam is going to take over Catholicism and do you know what I mean? So in my mind, I was like, "Oh, it's a war." But after reading and learning and coming to an understanding of like, "No, this uh it's all connected. This is just the last chapter in like there's been four great books over 120,000 prophets have come from the creation of man. So there's so much stuff in the Quran that if you are a thinker like me or someone who the scriptures you start reading the Quran you're going to become Muslim you're going to find peace and you're going to become Muslim. Like if people I see people go I've read the Quran and I think sweet such whatever but I know they're lying cuz anyone who reads the Quran with no bias and um opens the heart and reads it and takes it in they will not have a problem with Islam. Islam can save the world. James the the the thing what really upsets me is don't forget I've took on the whole far right on my own. Yeah. The whole far right came for me. Tommy Robinson all of them. Yeah. No, the thing with Islam is people say it's the enemy. It's this. Yeah. Islam is here to save humanity. It's the last bastion in humanity. Nuclear weapons are haram. Yeah. They're not allowed. Like nuclear weapons are a no. No. No. The people in this country, the working-class people from areas, especially in northern towns, Yeah. They are championing the likes of Nigel Farage. For me, what is so upsetting is I know that this man and the reform are the arch enemy of the working class people. The arch enemy. They do not have no workingclass person's uh interest at heart. None of them. And I've I'm I'm very observant and I'm I'm a very uh political person and I've watched the Reform Party. Yeah. And I ain't got nothing good to say about any of them. But when I see the the people that should be scared of Na Jaf Farage, the people in Blackburn, in Burnler, in these um low-inccome towns, in these northern towns, he's a hero in these towns. These this these places strongholds for Farage. Yeah. But you you should be opposed to him. And um so when I come home Yeah. And I'm seeing all of this uh propaganda and all this far right shit. I started speaking out cuz I couldn't I didn't have to. Yeah. My my MS built while I was in jail. She built my macario music, you know, my Instagram. She built it up. She was sharing all of the kids from jail cuz I was down the block or whatever. She, you know, she was going out of her way and I'd phone her and she was doing it and she built it up and I had a good thing going on with my music and I just can't see something and not say something if if I, you know, I thought I'm doing myself a disservice. Don't get me wrong, I've been shadowbanned and all that stuff, but I just can't stand the far right and I thought I need to speak out about these people and Yeah. So, but anyways, I'm going off a bit, but back so back to Islam, man. So, I was in jail. Yeah. And shout out Father Leonard James. I need to tell you about Father Leonard Cox. Shout out Father Leonard Cox. I confirmed three Catholics with him just in um in Dovegate. Yeah. While I was there four years confirmed three Catholics in that prison alone. Father Leonard, right? Yeah. He's a he's the only Catholic priest in the world. Catholic priest. He's married. Right. Check this. Father Leonard he's in Birmingham. His dasis is there. St. Margaret and Mary's Church. Yeah. And I know, you know, Father Leonard, I hope you're still well alive and kicking. And I hope he you he won't mind me telling this story. He's a dear friend of mine, Father Leonard. And so he was a Church of England vicar. He had a church. Yeah. But really was a Catholic, right? His stepdad made him be Protestant, but he was brought he his mother was Catholic. His grandmother. So he's grown up in the Church of England, Protestant. Yeah. He's in um church. He's giving out mass. So he's giving out holy communion. He's doing mass inside of the Church of England. Do you do you understand what I'm saying? So instead of doing a Church of England service, he's doing mass. Yeah. He's giving holy communion, everything. So they got onto him what he's doing and they disown him. They take his house, his church. You're gone. Like how dare you? Yeah. Sacrilege this. what you're doing. So the pope finds out what he's done. Yeah. The pope flies Father Leonard out to Rome face to face. The Pope says, "Listen, what you was doing was brilliant." He said, "Like that. I can't believe that you're in England." Yeah. In actual England. The head of the Church of England is the king or the queen at that time. Yeah. And you're there giving out Catholic mass and holy communion. So he says to him, I want you to become a Catholic priest. And he said, but I'm married. And the pope said, do not worry. You can keep your wife. I need you as a Catholic priest. So that's how Father Lennon became a Catholic priest. Right. And I used to have deep chats with him. So we tell one day he tells me, "Have you heard of Iona in Scotland, Patrick?" So I said, "No, there's a little island called Iona, right? It's where Columbbo, he brought Christianity to Scotland. Columbbo it 1500 years ago this like 500 year AD his father was called Nyall in the island Columbbo so uh N was king N in Ireland and Columbbo has fallen out of his father over scripture so he comes to Scotland he leaves on a little boat he leaves Ireland a little boat few monks and some scripture and he goes and he lands in Iona do you know the island in the and he builds the monastery there. Yeah. So he builds this monastery there 1500 years ago and then so the reason father is telling me about this cuz he's just come back from visiting there and I'm like what? And he shows me the pictures. He brings the pictures and he's like look he said between that island pie said and um America there's nothing but the Atlantic. He said it's so beautiful. Then he gets to tell him that this man from Glasgow, just Willie McDougall or something like that, right? Takes a load of kids from Glasgow 30 odd years ago somewhere up to this island because that monastery what Columbbo has built. Yeah. It's fell into disrepair. So he takes these young kids up, these Neds, whatever they call them, non-educated delinquents. Yeah. He takes them up. The jock's always been the good words out. He brings them up there. Yeah. and um they're fixing it up and they build it back up and Princess Diana's mom, she heard what he's doing. She was Catholic. She starts donating stuff to him. So, Father Leonard told me this story. Then he's telling this man this story on the actual island, James, cuz he visits it three times a year, right? And the man is telling he's a Glasgian man. He's telling him and he's like, "Yeah, I know cuz I was one of the kids that came with Willie and rebuilt it." So anyway, he's telling me this story, right? And I'm like, "Wow, this is amazing. I want to look at these things." Then the imam comes in. So father is like, "Oh, come here imam. Sit down. Say hello to Patrick." Right? Chatting to the imam. Then father says to me, "Patrick, do you know that Mary?" And in Mary is you if you know with Catholics she's you know Catholics are very devout to Mary where um Protestants Church of England is not but Catholics are as you know very very devout and he's like do you know Mary is got the only female in Islam with her own chapter in the Quran and I was like no way I didn't know that. No. And then the imam's talking so then we're talking and then when I'm doing prayers Yeah. And every Sunday at mass I do prayer open prayer and I talk and I was praying for the rahindas and the weaguers the they're Muslim people with the weaguers are in China and the rahindas are like myar Bangladesh but they're an oppressed people are people that's getting persecuted so I was praying for them and um father lender come up to me and he's like I really like Patrick that you was praying that you mentioned the weaguers and the ringers and I'm like Yeah, you know any oppressed people anywhere in the world. And then father Leonard tells me he says get this book about Jes and Arab perspective on Jesus. So I get this book Arab perspective on Jesus and reads that book and then this is like 4 years or something before I became Muslim. And uh yeah so I read that book and then um I go to another prison now. Yeah. I go to um a CCAP prison. Yeah. And the war in Gaza has kicked off bad. And um I just couldn't watch I was watching it and I couldn't I was getting so stressed out. So one day my friend Isaac I said it was during Ramadan. I said I I'm on a fast today just in solidarity with the kids in Gaza like it's it's knocking me sick seeing it on the news. Al Jazer was on the news every day then they took it off the telly now. You can only watch it on a telly if it's internet connected. Yeah. So one of my mates like yeah he said I'll do it with you. So we did that and then the next day after that night I felt so good and then the next day I made up my mind. I knew like I'm I'm going to do this. I'm I'm becoming Muslim. And the next day, somebody passed away who um from Manchester, well-known person. Yeah. And very fit man as well. He'd been in 20 years. He had the 10 or something left to do. And u he'd passed away. And my other mates come to me and he's like, "You heard?" I said, "I know. I know." And he said, "Paire, man. You look at all your fucking you're overweight and stuff as well. You don't know if you're going to make it out of it. You And then that was it. That day I said, "Yeah, I became Muslim." And then I just went and did it. But don't forget, I weren't even like chilling with Muslims, James. You know what I'm saying? All my mates that are around me are like um there from Sulford or Manchester or Liverpool. Yeah. So, um don't get me wrong, I had a few Muslim mates, but I wasn't chilling with them like with the boys. So then when I'm come back I'm Muslim and then I'm like I can't I'm not eating that. Yeah. You know like bacon grill and stuff people are like what? I'm like I'm not eating that. I'm not eating that. And people are just like people couldn't understand. My my close friends that really know me they understand. But some of my friends was like you're the most Catholic guy I ever met. Yeah. You don't stop. So, and I'm like, "Yeah, exactly. That's what's led me to do this." Like, because you you could only go so far. And I don't want to upset your faith, James. You're Catholic. Any other Catholic? >> I was raised Catholic. I'm not religious anymore. Yeah. I I um >> I question it all. There's three Abraham religions. They're all sort of similar in a way. It's whatever person buys into it. You could be raised to vape in it. >> Yeah. Yeah. You can be raised anywhere and see the world with where your surroundings is. So I don't judge anybody. I just sit back and question all Jesus is mentioned in the Quran many times. >> More times than I know plenty of Muslim people who are amazing people. I know plenty of Christians are amazing people. And I know plenty of cunts in both religions. There's demonic. There's extremists. There's killers and pedophiles in all religions as well. I think we need to take away the word >> the religious word of what this person is. portray them as fucking evil, you know? So, I think the divide is part of the problem. I just sat back and question, "Oh, I don't care. If you're good to me, I'm good to you. I don't give a fuck what >> I believe, James, also that I believe that 1% of all humanity is bad." And the 99% is good, you know, and that doesn't matter what creed or faith you come from. So what you thinking you came out Muslim Christian guy in for robberies then coming out with the Quran it must be a shock and it is funny as well because people think nah you've been in there getting better food you can't do >> you know but how could I because I only done it at the end of my at the beginning when I first went to jail like I I did it at the end of 20 years >> why do you believe believed in it so much why did why the transition cuz I don't even think you can go from Islam to Christianity can you >> can you go >> yeah what is that not a kind of like >> no like listen this is what I'm saying. So >> I don't know cuz I don't I've never read them. >> So um for me right I I'll tell you now exactly how it goes. >> Mark, John, Luke, Matthew, the gospels that we know that's in the New Testament. Who was the day writt? You don't know? >> No. >> That's right. So nobody does. So it wasn't by the people that they saying it was by. They when the Bible was canonized there was a a meeting called a council in Nio and Paul went there. Now Paul was called Saul in the Bible. He was called Saul. Yeah. And he was persecuting Christians, killing them, capturing them and killing them. Then he has a change of heart. He says that some Jesus speaks to him. He says, "Yeah, just what Paul says in the Bible." And then he's like, "Oh no, he's a Christian now." So Paul was like nearly 300 years after Jesus. Yeah. It's three three centuries later and he's there when these books get written an Old Testament person. I don't know where you are with the Bible. Me I've never read it. >> Right. So >> I just raised it through school. I think it was not fairly Jewish people who wrote the Bible. >> Did they not say it was fairly Jewish men who wrote the Bible? >> Well, so it it was the Bible is 66 books. So the Bible >> has been changed many times. >> No, no, it's not that it's been changed. It's it's different books >> of of different times. There's a chronological. So the the Bible and the Quran and the Torah is 6,000 years of history. >> That's it. So >> was first. >> Yeah. So the Torah's first. Yeah. Obviously, uh the first five books of the Bible is the Torah. So the the But they have another book as well. >> I believe Jesus existed. I believe it was black as well. Was it Joshua or something? Is that a is Joshua or something? His name is yeah. So I believe it existed. There's plenty of evidence to say existed. But >> for me, man, with so many gods and so many religions, I question who's right. >> No, I know. I know. Like, so the thing is, yeah, when you're Muslim, you accept it all. This is what I'm saying. So there's 66 books. So from the beginning. So the should we talk about the creation of >> talk about what you want. >> Right. >> So the creation people this is a class today as well. So the the the the creation story of us is that Allah subhana tala God Yeah. created us Adam from clay. Yeah. He creates us from clay and he assembles his angels. Yeah. to say look at this creation. Now one of these angels is called or shan the Satan Lucifer. Yeah. So this one angel the devil he says I am not bowing down to that. Yeah. God says why. He says I'm not bowing down to him cuz I'm made from fire. He's made from clay. Right. So there's a little a dispute, a disobedience from one of the angels. Yeah. He then takes the shape of a serpent and convinces Eve to bite the apple. Right. Then us, we are sent here as a punishment. Yeah. Adam and Eve was sent to earth as a punishment. Naked as well. Yeah. They were sent here naked. different parts of the planet they met up and parented human. Now they were sent here but also the devil was sent here. Yeah. To prove to God that he can corrupt us that our species what he's our creation yeah was not worthy of him to bow down to because we're corruptible. So he's been here now. There's been 120,000 prophets sent and four great books. And you follow this, you get back. The whole time the devil has been here. And the devil was made of fire. Yeah. The angels is made of fire. We was made of clay. Right. In in in heaven, in Eden, we was made of clay. No. Clay is 70% water. We're 70% water. Water is the only thing in the universe that can kill fire. So the devil is made of fire, but we're made of water. So every human has that goodness inside him to be able to overcome and defeat the devil. Do you know what I'm saying? And um so we come here and humans um if you look at every other planet, every other species on the planet, sorry. Every species, James. Yeah. They can survive four seasons outside in their habitat. It takes us 2 years to acclimatize to the gravity of this planet before we can even stand up. Yeah. A shark's born swimming. A horse is born, it can stand up and walk. Yeah. We need to take the animals what are indigenous to this planet and peel their skin. Do you know what I'm saying? To survive. Like have you never questioned are we even from here? >> Yeah. Of course I did. >> Right. So that so that that suffices for me. The creation story in Islam. Yeah. It satisfies everything. The scientific stuff, the stuff about the mountains being three times as deep as they are high, they act as stakes. Yeah. Things about biology, things about the human biology, things about in the stuff in the Quran, what they're scientists are just discovering today. Now, it's hard. I understand for a lot of people, a lot of white people like you said, "Oh, I've got I know good Muslims, bad Muslims, no matter what." But I know people still what they still think in their head because I'm a human myself, mate. And I've been there. I've looked at someone who's white and Muslim and thought he's raged. Yeah. Yeah. I I have. Do you know what I mean? He He's raged because that I couldn't comprehend. Yeah. Then when you embrace Islam and you realize there's no colors, there's no there's nothing but the worship of one God. That's it. No partners, no association. The worship of one God. It teaches you to not drink. I don't drink. I don't take drugs. I smoke weed. Yeah. That's not a drug. >> So I weed. God put that there. Right. Now, if I go and get um a a card to say that this weed is for my medical whatever, that's halal. No, God knows your intention. I don't smoke weed to get high, James. Yeah. I smoke weed to deal with my PTSD and my other personality disorders because what happened with me daddy, he overdosed on tablets. Yeah. So, I've never been a fan of taking tablets. Do you know what I mean? But I know that I'm I've got a few issues. um what obviously comes from a lifestyle in prison. So the weed it keeps my PTSD at bay. So I don't smoke weed to get high. I smoke it for a medicine. >> Did you think the backlash would be so big when you when you done that video and you were saying free the strip and you had the outfit on and you coming out the mosque? >> No, I was just outside my house what it was. I' basically I'd put a I'd put um a post up a few weeks before that at the start of Ramadan. So like 4 weeks before and I got bare at James. You know what I'm saying? And like I've got an ego still. I can sit here and all that. Of course I've still got an ego. I've still got that but I got that instinct to to activate. Do you know what I'm saying? So when all of this is happening, I'm fucking fuming, bro. I want to hurt people. Yeah. But God is working inside of me and it's like nah this is the other thing what people need to realize like me being Muslim has stopped me doing so much stuff already and it's put I had never had an ounce of forgiveness Catholics talk about I'll forgive when I was Catholic mate I I wasn't forgiving nothing yeah nothing like no do you know what I'm saying if it was forgiving somebody it was a lie but now being Muslim I have that forgiveness so I was I was getting it Yeah. And no matter who you are, mate, it's hard. Like one little comment can piss you off. I've getting bad comments, me, bare good comments, essays of people saying, "Oh, you're great." All of this. Yeah. One little dickhead with no picture and no followers says something and it's in my head. You know what I'm saying? So, it's human nature. So, I was getting so badly trolled. So, when I that post that went that was viral, but that that post Yeah. I was a bit like I was in people's faces because I was like I wanted to ram it down people's throats cuz I'm pissed off from getting trolled for a month. Do you know what I'm saying? But as a Muslim I I have let myself down a little bit because I should be doing more. I should be giving more da I should this like the way I'm talking about things here now about the creation and all of these things and about how you should love Jesus. My my Islamic name is Esau. Yeah. And that is that's Jesus. That's Arabic for Jesus. But I've not been doing enough, giving out enough da and trying to educate people. Even if you don't want to be religious, just don't hate someone else's religion. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that um this is bad because I've been there before and I thought that and there's so many people around the world. I mean, Tucker Carlson, you know, Tucker Carlson now for years when Tucker was on Fox News, he had his anchor show on there. Um, and he was nothing but slating Islam on Muslims all of the time. He's, you know, he's got the balls to come out now and say, "I got it wrong." Yeah. I got that wrong. Like, nah, Islam is not the problem. Do you know what I'm saying? >> What do you think the problem is then? >> Me, the problem is corruption. The problem is capitalism. Uh, the problem is the money doesn't exist. It's an imagined belief. 500 years ago in this country, you had gold smiths and silver smiths and you'd take your gold in and they'd say, "Yeah, James, there's a receipt to say how much gold you have." And the gold smiths and the silver smiths. Yeah. They realized that, wow, everyone never comes for the gold so we can print these receipts. Yeah. That that was basically how fractional reserve banking was born. FRB, it's a legal practice. This is what banks still practice today. Fractional reserve banking. Yeah. So that means that they can loan out 10 million even if the vote only holds 1 million. If I do that, it's fraud or something. So the gold smiths and the silver smiths realize something there. Oh, hang on. We can do this. Yeah. Then uh the bank of London, you know, comes about. Yeah. But the Bank of England, sorry. Yeah. That gets took over by a certain firm of people and then for the last 500 years like the world has been under um their strings basically because the money makes the world go round. So also where we live in in capitalist cities, we live you know capitalism. Well, I'm a capitalist. You're a capitalist. But we're mass consumers and then advertisement makes the world go around. Yeah. So, we're we're mass consumers. We see something. Rolex, I want it. I see that. I want Gucci advertisements for it. So, then that leaves us way more easier to be manipulated with propaganda as well. So, cuz we live under that. We don't see it cuz we're just a part of it. But once you realize and you think, "Nah, it's fucked." That's fucked. So you got all these poor people around the world and majority of these poor places, a lot of poor Muslim places, poor Christian places in the third world and we're over here and if you look at what we've done for money, me just personally, me myself, the shit I've done, I'm ashamed of, do you know what I'm saying? I I've hurt people or scared or whatever I've done what just for that for money cuz in the reality of it is if I lived I had a piece of grass here by this river and there was a forest there like me and my son could go and fish every day. We could go and chop down wood, build a house out of that wood, could burn it for fire every day. Uh her and my daughter could be cleaning the pots or doing whatever. Like what what do we need money for? Do you know what I'm saying? Mun is being introduced to us for one thing and one thing alone that is corruption. Yeah. Is to corrupt us as a species. What did Judas sell out Jesus for? Do you know what I'm saying? So the money and the people that control the money. Yeah. That's that's the problem because they're the same people that are dividing. They're the same people that are undermining the integrity of Europe. They want Europe on it back. Do you know what I'm saying? So these these things are going on. Yeah. And I'm not just going to say, "Oh, it's Jews." Because that's ridiculous. I've got some great Jewish friends. Yeah. And they are just as upset as me and other people at what's going on under the guise of any religion. You know what I'm saying? So what's really going on is elite people. Yeah. these elite elite people and they they might be Christian, they might be Muslim, they might be Jew, they might be Hindu, they're all elite and they have a say in certain things that none of us will never know about. I'm sure you know about the foods, James. The ultrarocessed >> foods. Yeah. The water supplies like us as as a think about this. Yeah. I'm a traveler. Used to being outside a lot. never had no jabs me as a child. Never had a TB. None of these things skills and we're out playing in muk and you know messing around like if if you just look at the way the medicine and food is controlled. Do you know what I'm saying? Like the our species since cave was outside bare vitamin D. Yeah. Eating fresh veg. So we was outside for thousands of years. Yeah. Hunter gatherers. Then 30,000 years ago, 20,000 25,000 years ago, Homo sapiens domesticated wild wheat. Yeah. So we domesticated this wheat than agriculture's born. So for thousands of more years, we're in the field. Yeah. You're outside all day. 150 years ago, 170 odd years ago, industrial revolution, everyone's pushed into factories, pushed down coal mines, into houses. So, our bone density is shrinking. This is proved by archaeologists um on dig sites and they're taking bones from 7 800 years ago. Our density, our bones is shrinking cuz we're all we're indoors all day. We're told to put sunscreen on to protect you from the sun. The sun gives life to everything on the face of the planet. Do you know what I'm saying? So, we're we're controlled through these revolutions. The industrial revolution. We're in the middle of a digital revolution. Right. So, it our species has been controlled and pushed down since the industrial revolution. Yeah. >> Do you think we're devolving? >> Yes, mate. We're devolving. Yeah. Because we're becoming less intelligent, right? kids will the the faith that people have in chat GPT is and technology is unbelievable because all those having all of this faith in that it's going to be so easy for that to hoodwink us. >> What do you think life is? >> Um I think life is um to live. You know what I'm saying? >> I think humans know how to live. We've ever been through a system your whole life. >> No, we're full. This is the We're fully programmed. Yeah. Like we are fully programmed. If I'm born in China, I'm going to speak Chinese. I don't know what the fuck is coming out of my mouth. I'm speaking Chinese. If I get to 18 and I've never seen someone with a blooded nose or a bust mouth. Yeah. First time I see that at 18 years of age, I'm going to start hyperventilating cuz we're all made the same. We're all inherently good. We We are desensitized from young. For you to hit another person, another human, and bust or stab them or shoot them, that should violently make you sick. First time things like that happen. If you're 18, 19 and you only you've never heard of it happening. You didn't know it could exist that someone could get a bus nose or a bus mouth, bus lip. Soon the first time you see that, you'll start hyperventilating. Yeah. Like because that's we all got the same makeup cuz we're all inherently good. We're taught to be bad. It's learned behavior. And they want us bad. They want us playing GTA. Yeah. They want kids killing kids. You know, the taxi driver yesterday said to us, his nephew, 15year-old killed. He said he had to sit at a trial and watch the video and he's he's like, "No, no, these other kids other kids as well killed him. They have other children and they've took his life." And I just think the the powers that be didn't want um these things to be happening. They wouldn't. You know what I'm saying? You can't even slap your child, James. That is like how you know how can you discipline your kid now? You can hit your kid. He's going to go I do you know what? If I ran the world Yeah. If I ran this country, every kid that's 16 to 18 would be in the military. But have to do national service no matter what. Cuz they would come out at 18 with um qualifications, license, discipline, ready for the world instead of I wish they threw me in the armor instead of juvenile. And if they went around and said, "No matter what, they own your children till they're 18." Yeah. They've got them under curriculum till they're 18 now. So every boy and girl at 16 has to do 2 years national service. The country would be way better, but also people would be tougher. They don't want tough people. The the people that are really pulling the strings, they want men weak. Yeah. They want women um promiscuous and giving away the dignity. Do you know what I'm saying? This say they want boys to be girls and girls to be boys. Do you know what I'm saying? So, I know what's going on in the world. I believe you know what's going on as well, James. But there's a lot of other people that don't. And they're the people that I clash with cuz sometimes if I'm only trying to give you my opinion, what I think might be helpful, then these people are so um pig brain sometimes like they don't they're not trying to rear it. So a lot of Did people disown you for turning to Islam? >> Yeah. >> People you've known for a long time. >> Yeah. People like family and friends that like cousins and stuff. It's not they dis We just don't speak. But you know, I would die for them people. They would have died for me. And it is what it is. I don't care. I have her and I have my children. >> Why do you think people are so against it? >> I was against it. So I understand why. I understand because of the propaganda that's at play. like Islam is under attack. But once you understand like if you if you live on a street James Yeah. with practicing Muslims now just because someone's born as um an Arab or a Pakistani or an African. They're born in into a Muslim family and they're born like if they do something they're not a Muslim unless they are living as a Muslim, bro. They are not a Muslim unless they're practicing Islam. Do you know what I'm saying? So a Muslim means to submit to God. That's what a Mus the word Muslim means. One who submits to God. So just because Muslims might do things and you go mate, what about what the Christians do or the the Catholics or the Sikhs? So, but when it's Islam, it's a Muslim guy just done this. Not this guy called such a such a thing has just done this. It's this Muslim guy. And it's those little subtle things, microaggressions, >> media hyping. >> Yeah. It's the media divide. They're they're the biggest problem on the planet because people believe what they see. People believe what they read. >> Yeah. I used to So I So when I fell foul of propaganda, now bear in mind, James. Yeah, I have always had affinity with the Palestinian people from very young. I've as soon as I was aware, I think it was like 05. Yeah, it was 05 when I got nit for that jewelers and um it was at the bollocks then. Yeah. And I was like, wa, oh my god, what's going on here? Then I researching and learning more over the years and realizing my own people went through exactly the same off the same people as well. In in 1913 before World War I or two there was a English lord called Belffor and he it's called a Belffor declaration. He come out saying there should be a land for the Jewish people. Yeah. And then that ended up being the catalyst for the other Zionist movement um to for the formation of the state of Israel in 1947. But it was the British a British lord who first started that idea who came up with that idea. >> What do you think? >> So I've always been like cuz even the black ants went to Palestine. Do you know what I'm saying? I've always seen a similar every Celtic home game, the Green Brigade Fry, free Palestine flags. Do you know what I'm saying? So, it's a shared solidarity. Now, what was the navigation for me is hard is because I'm saying, "Yeah, I support Palestine, right?" But, James, I do not support unvetted males coming into the country, bro. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't I'm not for that. And I don't like that because I don't know who they are. I don't know what they're going to do. Yeah. We don't know anything about them. They can say they're nine. You don't know what country they're coming from. They can say, "Yeah, I'm 10." They can say anything. So, we know that's been allowed to happen. We've got a great military that could stop that. >> Do you know what I'm saying? So, that's been allowed to happen. But >> why do you think it's been allowed to happen? Do you think it's to cause the unrest? The sort of >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> civil unrest between the people that live here as well. Listen right there is very powerful people that want to see Europe destructed. Now since 2011 what's been happening it went off um Tunisia, Libya, Egypt. Yeah. Syria. Remember the Arab Spring. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So that happened that was designed because you know that was a revolution of BBM cuz I remember we rioted there in Sulford. Yeah it was BBM it was Blackberry Messenger. So is the the technology that's how those uh the Arab Spring spread so fast because of the technology but there's been mass big billionaire people behind the mass influx of migrants coming from North Africa. Yeah. Coming from North Africa, then coming from Asia in through land routes. Yeah. That could have been stopped at the on the Mediterranean. You we could have summoned a a flower and n of said NATO uh ships, you know, combined countries to put all our navies together and stop this influx because it's definitely an attack on Europe. Yeah, there's correct channels to come through. So, um, for asylum and stuff and I'm all for asylum, don't get me wrong. Like, I'm all for someone having a better life. Yeah, of course. But I know that the amount of people that have been making their way into Europe that there's something behind it. There's people behind it driving it because they want Europe in tatters. like these people do not like Europe. They don't for Europe um has been behind a lot of shit that's happened to the Jews throughout um history. Do you know what I'm saying? Like this is the thing. The Jews are such an easy target to blame because kings and emperors and popes from thousands of years ago, you know, whenever something's going wrong, even Makaveli said to keep, you know, to be a a statesman, to be a leader, it's a fine balance, you've got to keep everybody happy. And as soon as the people started to turn around a king or an emperor in Europe hundreds of years ago, what did they do? Do you blame the Jews? Do you know what I'm saying? So then Jews was expelled from this set or expelled from that s and persecuted. It's way bigger than Jews. The Zionist movement as a whole is run by atheists. Do you know what I'm saying? They're not religious people. the Christians and Jews desire that that run a Zionist movement, but if you ask me, the fully godless uh atheist people now, the the Jews that live in Manchester practicing in synagogues, they shouldn't be getting attacked, James. The Jews down here that they're going to do the fib, they shouldn't be getting attacked, right? that people attacking Jews that are not bothering. No, but just going to pray or worship. That's playing into the hands of the divide. I see that. That's why I don't sit there calling it's the Jews or it's this or it's that cuz that's just another black. That's that will settle people go, "Yeah, it's the Jews." No, it's not. It's something even more elite and bigger what's going on. But the Jews are just there because they've always been there to blame. They've all that's why the Pope kept them around so much. I can blame the Jews. Blame the Jews. Blame the Jews. And mate, what that Satan Yahoo, he is a horrible piece of shit. I hope to God uh God willing one day I get to see that man in handcuffs in the H. Yeah, I would love nothing better. But um what he's doing there is is horrible. But when I see Jews getting attacked here for it or in in England, you know, or in Europe, I think they're just falling into the trap of this is what the people really want. They want this divide and they want you to say that life's precious, but that's not for me. All life is precious. Any child deserves to live. Any child should have basic needs met. You know, any child should have um food, water, loving mother, you know, uh school to go to or whatever that it may be. Any child should have that and that whatever faith they're from, whatever color they're from, they should be allowed that they should have that. >> How's life leaf now? >> It's good. We're flying. >> We're flying. We're flying. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, mate. Do you know what? We We're getting on so well. Like I'm doing something honest now, James. And you know, it's rewarding for me, mate, to to not have to look over my shoulder, to not have to worry. You know what I'm saying? It's really rewarding. And we're doing well. And people uh when people are seeing you doing well, they're wanting to help you more. Do you know what I'm saying? >> Honestly, I've had >> in the last few weeks, me and her have had great support. And thank you to those people like they've been supporting us massively cuz it was hard for us. come on the internet, you know, everyone loved us, then everybody hated us, now everybody loves us again. Yeah. But it it it cuz of who we are, the internet doesn't mean shit to us. It's just a little bit of fun. We we're living real life every day. But for lesser people, it could easily break us, man. I mean, I I took on the full far right on my own, man. Do you know what I'm saying? They was lining up, bro. Even whilst I was in jail uh for a 8week recall, they're trolling her and stuff. So >> yeah, but you know what? Let me just say a couple of the lads >> from the far right, whatever the patriots, whatever. Like few of them, I've spoke to them, few spouses, a few other kids, spoke to them in depth and you know, we've found a mutual ground and they've said, "Ping respect you." Thought he was just a fucking cunt at first, mate. Yeah. But you know what? Fair play. like and we ain't going to try and give you no more shit because we feel like you're actually sincere and genuine in what you're saying and you've highlighted things to us what we didn't know. Communication is key. What we've got now is everybody's screaming past each other. Nobody's sitting having a like I don't give a fuck who you are, what you if you're decent to me, I'm decent to you. People see the world differently from everybody else. You could be a Christian next year. You could be a Muslim for the rest of your life. You you just don't know the way life goes. But for me is just to sit behind it and go, you know what? Let's listen to all aspects of it. I think that makes sense. Let's like look. Yeah. >> Um there is so many people in this country right now that I'd say >> it's usually like the poor people, man. And it's sad and it's usually like I I don't think like you get intelligent racist people. I feel like it's a lot the racist people are low IQ people. Do you know what I'm saying? Because for anybody to feel like they're superior to any other human to me, I just think that's stupid. >> White people are the minority though. There's only 8% of white on the planet. >> Yeah, we are the minority people. The white man came from um the Euro mountains in Russia. The white Russian came there down from them mountains like 60,000 years ago. So white has always been a minority on this planet. So you had Asia and Africa. I think there's racism at all walks of life as well. I think it's more online though. When you walk the streets, you'll never see any badness. I think social media makes you think the world's falling apart. >> That's the thing. That's the thing. And for for some of these people that are abroad and not even here and stuff when they're seeing all this shit online. They're not living in the dayto-day. Like our neighbors are black. Our last neighbors was black on both sides. Everyone on the streets get along. Is it's just >> the majority is not asked. No, it's online. It's all fake shit. And people are thinking, but also some people might just live in an area where they never see any other culture. They might have never met mixed in school with any other culture. Yeah. And all they know about this other culture is what they've been told or misinformed of other people. You can't blame them people. I've been misinformed. I know I I keep jumping but I'll have to come back again another time because I've got a lot to say and I'm jumping from topic to topic but I was trying to say before when I fell foul of propaganda when I was about 17 or something it was just after 911. Yeah. and Saddam Hussein and the son who's oh that was another thing I told you a minute about Murdoch the Robert Murdoch another Scotsman right even though he's born in Australia his heritage is Scottish the most powerful man in the last thousand years him alone is the the most single powerful individual in the last thousand years that's a fact and you know that just by the media what he controlled he he's the ultimate um king maker but yeah I fell foul of Murdoch's propaganda because it was just some people with big finger like this going to press a button and like so that was saying that basically Saddam can press this button and we're all fucked weapons mass destruction everyone's going to die so I was like fucking hell go get him and I was well for the war and going to Iraq and killing Saddam I was well for that now as I as a 40-y old man who realized how over a million innocent people was killed in that campaign. Yeah. Pointless. Lots of soldiers died. Young men, people I know personally died or family members died over there for what? What was it for? >> Yeah. Nothing. Greed, power, oil, gold. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All war is murdered though. All war is murder. You get 9/11. You've got all these soldiers patriotic. It's understandable. Let's go to Afghanistan, Iraq, whatever. >> Yeah, but what did Iraq have to do with it? >> No, nothing. >> Exactly. Didn't make sense. The false flag event though. >> It was like Pearl Harbor happened off your Jap. It was like them saying, "Let's go and do fucking um Greece. Japs have just bombed us." >> Got the Gulf of Tonkan incident, which was a boat which is out near Vietnam and it get bombed and they says it was a Vietnam people had done it so they could go and attack Vietnam. But it wasn't. It was it was proven. I know it wasn't. It was bullshit. >> They tried to say the Vietnam was sticking up for the French and that is bullshit. >> Yeah. So everything's to do with money, greed, power, you know. So the media plays a massive part in that. >> I'm opposed to war, me, James. I'm not I'm against there's no right or wrong. There's no everything's wrong in it. It's the people behind it pulling the strings who fund both sides. That's what my problem is. But people want to choose a side for me. It's all fucked up. It's all bad. But how long it went out licensed till? 2034. 2034, mate. >> What's the longest you've actually been out since you're 15? >> Uh, yeah. So, >> two years. >> No. So, this is the basically the when I got back with Becca in 28, that was the longest I had out from 2008 to 2015. I'd never and like now I've been out 12 years. >> You're going to beat this seven years. >> Yeah. Like, mate, I won't go back. I don't care. People can try what they want. I ain't going back nowhere. I'm here. I'm here to stay, mate. Like I ain't going back nowhere. I'm not doing nothing wrong. And I'm I'm fully prepared to take on anybody. Yeah. Anyone, anyone ever born from my mother, any government, any uh judge, prosecutor, cuz I ain't doing nothing wrong. They could come with trumped up shit. I don't care. I'll fight it where I have to fight it. I'm doing nothing wrong and I'm not leaving. >> I'm not leaving my family. I'm I'm >> Mate. Listen, we need to They need to make a film, bro. We want some movie deals. see what he could do for us for me and I Jordan cuz what we've done from our city mate it wasn't easy and another thing we put little on the map and people need to know that before us like little people was going to jail and stuff they get bullied and not respected that stopped with me yeah and everybody in so will tell you that then with our Jordan as well and like now the younger kids growing up it's more cooler to be from let aluminum when it wasn't back then cuz it was just an overspill town built cuz obviously had the docks in Sulford this all the navies the ship canals been built and then the population is growing so little was just like four fields yeah those fields nothing there cuz of the boom of the population they had to build the states there and then they build the states like as an overspill town you know what I'm saying and yeah so we really set the levels there and you know what Jordan's done with his music to come from that place and to have fans. He's got fans in China, Japan, all around the world, man. And yeah, watch there. There's definitely going to be a movie coming out of Sulford. >> What's your plans for the future? >> So, my plans is getting my app built my car music app for my music cuz I love music and I love to help other people, James. So me helping someone, even if it's write a bar or even if it's to put them in contact with a producer, I like that. And it's not just to get a penny off somebody. I like to help someone. It helps my PTSD to to help others. And I like to her poetry. I love, you know, I love music. I love I love writing. So I want my app to be up and running. Mario Music app and my metal business, man. Yeah. a lot of good to scrapards and it's something you can trust. It's a physical thing. Metal, do you know what I'm saying? Where the money changes all the time where metal is like it's real. Do you know what I'm saying? It's >> What's your social medias, brother? For people who want to contact you, drop your message. >> Yeah. So, basically, it's lady in waiting. At the minute, it'll be changed back, but Lady in Waiting or Mario Music, but yeah, shout out Lady as well. And um shout out all the boys, everybody, all my mates, everyone who supported me. Do you know what I'm saying? I love you all. >> For anybody watching, brother, that's maybe in a life of struggle and can't see a we out way out. What advice would you have for them? >> Listen, I would just say to you is carry on. Also, if you could get a hold of me, a DM, I always write back to people. People ask me all the time and I'm always there to help another human being out or I always respect a man that admits that he's struggling because you know it's not it's not easy for a man to come out and say or ask for someone but I can just say that I'm an advocate for therapy. This is therapy now. Me and you speaking James and I said it to my MS last night. I said, "I really like James' interviews because he's a really deep person and I've I've watched lots of your interviews, James, and some of the questions you've asked people, I thought, what a good question." He's trying to invoke the right um emotions and he's he's trying to shine a light on the darker sides of some of the things we go through. You're not just concentrating on all of the glamour, all of the glitz. So, I really respect that about you as a man that you you you're a deep person and I could tell you really care about the world and you I can tell you care about the people around you. So, anybody who is struggling, I'll just say guys, carry on cuz I've been in dark dark places, mate. I've been down freezing cold blocks with no phone credit. Um with bare beef. Yeah. Knowing I got to get back up. got bare beef like me and I never give up cuz I have I had a beautiful wife and loving children. Yeah. And I have my faith in God. But what helped me massively was talking about how I was feeling. If I didn't have that outlet, my life could have been different. But me learn I done two years on a therapeutic community. So learning to say how I'm feeling and not shy away from it and not be ashamed. Do you know what I'm saying? because you're a man. And if you could say you're feeling a bit like this about something, I respect that. I would never take that as a weakness. I'd take that as a strength. Only a coward would try and exploit that and take that as a weakness. I'd take that as that's a man who's confident in his own skin and he doesn't mind sharing. This is how he feels. And there's many of um you know there's many of clubs out there like men's clubs and uh things like that you could contact if you didn't want to speak to like a a a help line or something cuz I know that's hard but yeah my inbox would always be open also lay there lady lady in waiting she's helped on a daily basis she has so many women writing to her and saying that message you sent me you've helped me so much so I believe my and her job uh on this And that the lane we're in is helping others. And if users was to go in our DMs and see user be like, "Yeah, it is helping others." Cuz when we're just posting together, people are like, "Oh, it's beautiful. We love your relationship." But we both individually engage with our fans. We will take our time out to write back. Not just someone who's who looks good or he's got loads of followers. I don't care if this guy's down and out. He can't offer me. I feel it's my duty. He's wrote to me. I've opened it. I'm going to give him a bit of advice. >> You know what I'm saying? >> Thanks for coming on today. I wish you nothing best for the future, bro. Yeah. Listen, God bless you. >> Hopefully we'll be back again one day, mate. It's been amazing. Is that all right, Steph? Yeah. Yes. Hi.