Inside Leather History - A Fireside Chat w/Graham J Clark

All right. Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe. I am the host and the producer of the chats, which are a program of the leather archives and museum. Today I'm sitting down with Graham Clark who is in Australia. He is a Leatherman, a title holder, and an author, a new author, let's put it that way. So, Graham, tell me a little bit. I'd like to start off with a little bit of demographic information. Tell me a little bit about where you're from and how was your family and growing up. >> Um, okay. So, I was born in the UK um many many years ago. I won't say exactly [laughter] when. Um came to Australia with my brother and my parents when I was uh almost 9 years old. And um have lived in Australia ever since. Um, and in terms of my family in Australia, uh, here here and now, uh, my parents are no longer with us, but I do have, um, a brother, um, living in Queensland who and his wife and, um, their kids and so on. So, you know, I don't have a close family around me here in Victoria, but yeah, I've got um some family members um in Queensland and also some family members who I do hear from now and then um back in the UK, surprisingly enough. Yeah. >> Now, was your family, this is a phrase I learned when I was in Australia some years ago, was your family 10 pound palms? >> Correct. Ah >> we came here in 1972 I think it was. >> Okay. >> August 1972 from memory on a Boeing 737 I think it was. >> Um mostly the 10 pound palm um people came across on cruise liners. >> So there were some however that came across on you know um Quantis flights. So we that's what we did. Um my parents decided they wanted a better life for themselves and their children. Um and my my grandmother my mother's mother had just passed away and um they thought perfect opportunity to make the move and they were trying to decide whether or not to move to Canada or Australia. >> Okay. >> And um in the end they decided upon Australia. In some ways, I regret that decision of theirs only because it costs so much money to fly from Australia anywhere else. The only place that's really easy for us to get to is Barley, >> which Barley, there's not a lot of leather in Bali. [laughter] >> Very tropical climate. >> Also, um Oakland in New Zealand. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't regret living in Australia, but I'm just saying that Australia, it's a beautiful country, but it really is quite isolated. And in terms of traveling to from say Melbourne to Rome, it takes so long and it costs a lot of money. >> Like, it's about 23 hours, I think, the flight. >> Oh, yeah. And um it's it's not the time so much as the actual cost, you know, it costs like all of those guys that went to IML this year from Australia. Um you know, I've been following them on social media. They would have paid a lot of money for their airfares. >> You know, granted, some of them might have been sponsored by some of the the venues like the lead hotel, etc. Even so, you know, they would have easily spent $10,000 plus, >> you know, getting over to Chicago, you know, going out to the bars. Um, you know, >> getting the new outfits for IML. Yeah. >> New leather outfits for IML. Exactly. [laughter] >> Because, as you and I both know, leather is not cheap, >> right? Or if you do get cheap leather, normally it it becomes moldy after like a year or two and you've got to throw it out. >> It depends. I mean, yeah. Well, it the cheaper the the worse quality, of course. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But like I try to keep mine put away correctly so that it doesn't disintegrate. >> Absolutely. And I live in Melbourne. We It doesn't get humid here very often. So yeah, I can just chuck the leather in the cupboard, you know, put it on the hanger and just not worry about it. >> If I was living in Queensland, for example, um Queensland it gets very humid. >> Uh so I'd have to be really careful. >> Yeah. >> And I know I know a leather guy who lives in Queensland who had to throw away some of his leather because >> he tried his best, but it just got mold on it. He could he just back >> and um yeah I mean >> what can you do? I mean >> you know if you're into leather and you live in a a tropical area I can only imagine how difficult it is for leather men who live in Florida. I see >> I see those leather men >> u you know wearing their leather and I'm thinking they must be buying new leather on a regular basis. It all depends of course how much you keep your your home air conditioned. That'll help. >> Yeah. >> You know, but it's very interesting getting to know you minimally at least a little now. You know, in in 2019 I I came to Australia to do a whole series ultimately 13 interviews. Interesting. You didn't come up in the in the list. Then [laughter] >> look, I was out there. I mean, I was going to the lead hotel regularly, especially on a Thursday night for spit and polish, which is, you know, leather and fetish. Um, so maybe, you know, it's just one of those things. Our paths didn't cross. >> I'm sure we would have friends in common. I know that, you know, Damian Simpson, for example. Yes. >> Um, but yeah, look, you know, it Australia is a big country. So, yeah, >> you know, when you were here, maybe I was, you know, interstate for some reason. Who knows? >> Yeah. I don't know. But yeah, >> you were here in the summer. Is that right? >> I was there um like October into November that year, >> right? Okay. So that was our spring. >> Yeah. >> Right. I see the thing is unless I saw your social media on, you know, Instagram or Facebook, I'm you know, I'm not likely to know about you. >> Nothing personal. >> [laughter] >> Well, >> and that's another thing as well, you know, in terms of living in Australia. There's so much goes on uh in the US and Europe that we don't know about. Like I've been >> I've been kind of tapping into a lot of that recently. You know, I've joined the IML group on Facebook >> and a few other leather groups on Facebook as well, just to see what's happening elsewhere. And there's all this stuff going on, you know, in Europe and the US that we never hear about over here >> and probably vice versa. There's probably stuff happening here now and then that you don't know about. >> Right. >> Right. It wouldn't make it would not make the local press, you know. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, because we've got a small population, you know, capital cities. I think we've got five of them. I mean, you've got major cities in the UK. You've probably got about 15 or 20 of them. So, yeah. >> But yeah, look, and we've also got AWOL, as you probably know, in August, a week of leather. >> Oh, yes. >> So, that's probably the only thing that Melbourne is known for. Sometimes I hear people on social media talking about, you know, various leather events around the world and that will get mentioned as well as Sydney leather pride. >> Sure. That of course the two that get mentioned regularly. >> There are so many people I know who've one been to Sydney Leather Pride or two want to go to Sydney Leather Pride and all I hear is how much a great fun they had and I'm like oh damn I haven't been able to godney I live in Melbourne but I you know I I don't go to Sydney very often but when I do it's always so much fun. Um >> yeah, I mean it, you know, Sydney is a great city, you know, and they've got their um they've got um a leather, what do you call it? An eagle bar in Sydney as well. It's like a a pop-up eagle bar. So >> yeah, such as it is. Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't think it's all year round, but it's very very uh well attended obviously, you know, around Mardigra. >> Yeah. Sure. Of course it would be very early March. >> Yeah. >> Um which we don't have in Melbourne. We've just got when it comes to leather, the home of leather is really the lead hotel. >> Yeah. >> And when I say leather, leather and kink, you know, I I tried to do that in my book, by the way. Instead of just saying leather, >> u I say leather and kink rather than leather and fetish because fetish and kink are not exactly the same thing. >> No, >> kink, I think, um is included in fetish >> in my opinion. >> Yes. Yes, it can. So I I I did um I gave that a lot of thought actually when I was putting the book together, you know, I I thought, do I just say leather parties or do I say leather and kink parties or leather and fetish parties? So we were really getting down to the semantics. And um >> that's why >> I just the research that I did um online apparently leather and fetish is a bit dated nowadays mostly a lot of organizations will say leather and kink >> um >> okay considering the demographic that I'm going for [laughter] >> a younger demographic um you know in their 40s and 50s 30s 40s and 50s then yeah probably I should say leather and kink rather than leather and fetish. >> But before we get too carried away in in the book and all of that, tell me a little bit more um how did you come out? >> Um I moved to Melbourne in uh January 1986. Um having um moved from the UK when we came over, we lived in Queensland for many years. So I was there from about the age of just um just before nine until you know 21. >> Okay. And then in my mind I I wanted to move somewhere where um there was a bit more freedom because Queensland um it was a bit conservative and um I wanted to move somewhere where it was, you know, politically less conservative and I obviously looked at Sydney and Melbourne and I just thought Melbourne sounds like more my style. Um it's a bit more European cuz I like I like European leather. um probably a little bit more than I do like what I call American leather. They are different personally, but um I just think they let make leather look so stylish. Like, you know, some of the guys that whose profiles I check out on social media, you know, they're wearing all these different outfits and I'm thinking, my god, they must have a spare room that's absolutely choa block full of leather, but they look stunning. Like, you know, they they really make an effort. some of these leather men over in Europe. I'm not saying that there aren't leather men in the US that do that. I'm sure there are, but it just seems to me that European leather is a little bit different to American leather. >> Yes. >> Or up market, I suppose you would call it. Um, and in terms of that whole full bluff, like that what I call full bluff, high cow, whatever you want to call it. >> Yes. >> You see a lot more of that in Europe than you do in the US. >> Yes. it. I'll tell you, visiting um Berlin for the first time as a leatherman was was I was taken aback. I wore what I would consider formal leathers in the US, but I was the poor country cousin that had turned up in Berlin because my sh my stuff was nothing by comparison. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a a friend who went to Easter Berlin last year, I think it was, >> and he felt Yeah. like he was underprepared for what he saw in terms of what they were wearing. You know, he thought he brought it >> all of the leather that he needed, but then in the end, he thought, "Oh, I think I might need to buy some more pieces." [laughter] >> Let me tell you, Ben, they're done that. [clears throat] Yeah, they they are very serious about it. They're very uh uh [sighs] very model about it. So yeah. >> Yeah. I think um when you say they're very serious, I think they're also a little bit more conservative when it comes to leather as well. um as opposed to US >> um because I know that um you know the recent IML which was won by Honey Davenport >> um >> I know that there's been a bit of a kathuffle and I know that you know we don't we don't want to go into politics too much but I know that there's um there's a particular um leather influencer in Europe who got himself into a bit of trouble because he said that it was drag not leather blah blah blah So, you know, >> old school leather. Um, you've, you know, you've got that in Europe and also in North America. But, um, I think you're right. I think they take it a bit more seriously in Europe, but I think when it comes to actually wearing leather, they are a little bit more conservative in Europe than they are in the in the US. >> Uh, that's possible. Yeah. I think it really just depends on the circumstances, but yeah. Yeah. >> Now, >> tell me about So, you you moved to Melbourne, you were finding your way around. Now, how did you become aware of the the whole leather fetish community? >> Um, there was a magazine um that you could buy in Melbourne which I came across purely by accident in a news agency. Um, I think it was called Outrage and they had a listing. Um, I think it might have been on the inside back cover or something like that. I remember when I came across it, it was uh covered in plastic, so I couldn't open it. >> Had to buy it. But, you know, there was a a young guy on the front cover um who, you know, he was handsome, but he wasn't exactly my thing. At that stage, I didn't really know what my thing was, but you know, he was cute. So, I I ended up buying this magazine and um you know, ripped the plastic covering off, looked through it, and there was a listing of venues in Melbourne. >> Um and also, I think they had a listing for Sydney as well. >> So, you know, doing the main cities in Australia. Um, and they also had um they had information, you know, about gay friendly dentists and gay friendly doctors and solicitors, all that kind of stuff. So, I ended up um taking out a subscription with this particular magazine. So, I I read it regularly for a while and I just decided to check out the venues that were on offer. So, I literally went to every single one of them at least once. >> Okay. And That was when you know, drum roll, I went to the lead hotel one night. [laughter] >> That's how it all started. That was an accident actually. I was with someone. >> We'd been somewhere else. Um, we went to another venue that we went to regularly and it was a quiet night at this particular venue for some reason. Um, and my friend suggested, he said to me, quote unquote, he said, "Oh, it's it's boring here tonight. How about we go to the Lead Hotel?" And at that stage, I had never even heard of the Lead Hotel. >> Yeah. >> It might have been in that magazine, but I don't remember seeing it in there. Maybe I missed it, but I I said to my friend, "The Le Hotel, I've never heard of it." And um he I said like, "Well, where is it?" And he said, "It's not far from here. we can just jump in a cab and you know be in there be there in no time and that's how it all started. I came here, I saw men in leather. At that that stage, I didn't know that it was leather. I just noticed that they were wearing black. And it was only when I got a bit closer when I went to the bar, I kind of, you know, um not um stalked them, I visually stalked them and I'm like, "Oh, I think they're wearing leather." >> But that was uh just to clarify the the layered hotel. I mean, it is sort of a hotel, but it's a big gay bar on the ground floor. >> It's not just leather. So, it's it's leather, it's kink, it's rubber, it's the bears. So, it's um Yeah, it's it's not just a leather bar. And it's that's because obviously we don't have the population to support a leather bar or at least we didn't >> now that you know Melbourne's population is over 5 million. >> Oh, wow. Okay. you know. So yeah, I mean maybe maybe it'll happen in the near future. I don't know. But yeah, hotel when I went there, it was just a bar for masculine men. >> You know, sometimes some some of the men that went there would be wearing um check shirts and denim jackets, you know, lots of denim. Um some would be wearing leather combined with um denim, which was a really good look. and you know, country and western boots >> cuz country and western was popular here for a while. We had boot scooting 1980s in Melbourne >> and you know I went to that once or twice and you know some of those guys were wearing the cowboy hats and >> going yehan and all that kind of stuff. [laughter] >> Um so yeah the the lead hotel I think it had started in like 1983. Oh, okay. >> They've been around for a while and they're still going, still going strong. Um, yeah, I went there for the first time. Like I said, I arrived in Melbourne in January 86. I think I probably went there maybe six or seven months later because it took me a while to settle in, find find a place to live, find a job, you know, get to know a few people. And yeah, like I said, you know, that night, that fateful night we went there, that was it. It was like I had an epiphany, you know. >> Ah, good. Good. But it's also you you got your first pair of leather chaps at around this time, did you not? >> Um, yeah. I I I started going to the lead um after being going there for the first time, like I said, oh, I don't know, September, October 1986. Um, and then I was around men who were into leather and it appealed to me, but I was a bit nervous cuz I was a twink. It's like, [laughter] you know, like when I the very first time that I went to the lead, you know, I was skinny. Um, I had no facial hair. >> Um, you know, I did not look like a leather man or a, you know, um, a curious kingster, whatever you want to call it. you know, I look like a twink. So, I had to change my look. You know, I grew I grew a mustache. Um, and I started dressing a bit more masculine, I suppose you would call it. You know, bought a few check shirts, that kind of thing. Um, and I think I bought my first piece of leather probably in about 1988,89. >> Okay. which was I bought my chaps and uh a mule cap. Um but yeah, up until then I'd been going to the lead not in leather but in you know denim like masculine denim I suppose you'd call it denim jack and all that kind of stuff. >> Yeah, there's a lot of overlap. Yeah. >> Yeah. I was slowly but surely changing my look and then yeah it all kind of happened 88 to 89 when I um went to Lurorry Lane's leather lounge I think it was called um and bought um had a pair of chaps um that I commissioned him to make cuz he made them himself. He didn't bring them over from you know Europe like they do now nowadays with Mr. B leather Mr. S and all that. Um, so he made them and I had to wait for him to finish. I think he he was pretty busy at the time. It took him something like three or four weeks >> and then he called me in, rang me up. Um, I came in, tried them on, and I was just so happy with them. You know, I felt like a superhero. It's like I was watching a Marvel video. >> Wow. >> I just, you know, I remember putting my hands on them. the smoothness. They were they felt, you know, cool to the touch and it was smooth and I think I went home and had a wank basically. Am I Am I allowed to say that? >> Yeah, you just did. [laughter] >> I think I just I think I took them home and Yeah. put them back back on at that stage because I I think I got home on public transport. Took them home, put them on, had a wank. Yeah, it was great. And I couldn't wait to wear them out. So yeah, it was good. >> Tell me about the first time you did. >> Um, I'm pretty sure it was delayed, like I said, on a Thursday night. So I I've got a feeling I picked them up on the weekend, like on a Saturday afternoon kind of thing. >> So, um, I probably went to the lead the following Thursday cuz Saturday night at the lead, it's not really leather. Um, but I know the first time I wore them, I just felt like I was um a different person. You, like a new version of myself. Um, I just felt so confident, so um, sexy. Um, yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, I just felt like I could change the world, you know, and um I I had more confidence in terms of, you know, talking to other guys because I felt like I belonged. Up until then, I'd still felt like an outsider. I was changing the way that I looked. Um and you know, trying to become one one of the leather men there or you know, pseudo leather men, whatever you want to call it. And um you know I was getting there slowly but surely but um you know it was it was still a bit of a struggle because I was I was trying to make friends. Yeah. And because I didn't have any leather at that stage I wasn't doing so well but as soon as I started to wear some leather >> that's when I started to make friends. >> Fascinating. >> Wow. >> Yeah. I mean maybe there's a bit of snobbery there I guess. or maybe you're not part of our little group or I don't know what it is. But >> for a while there, for a good >> year and a half, I'm like, is there something wrong with me? It's [laughter] like, you know, um I just thought I'm a nice person, you know? >> Um so anyway, it just took a while, that's all. I mean, sometime some cities are like that. I think Melbourne, you know, is one of those cities where it can take time to get to know people >> because you're an outsider. But I think that's changed. I mean, Melbourne was a bit kind of parochial uh in the 1980s, whereas, >> you know, now it's a big city. It's over 5 million. We get lots of international travelers coming here. >> Um whereas back then, you know, Sydney was an international city. Absolutely. But I don't think Melbourne was, you know, cuz our our population was I think it was just less than 3 million. It was like 2.7 or 2.8 something. >> Wow. >> But apparently your confidence must have really soared because you actually won a title. Tell me about that. [laughter] >> Uh that was an accident. It's like >> okay. Um, >> I I went to Adelaide for uh a long weekend >> and there was a guy over there that I was dating. So, he would come to Melbourne from time to time and you know, we'd go out to leather parties here. Um, and sometimes I would go to Adelaide. So, on this particular occasion, you know, I went to Adelaide for the weekend and caught up with Greg. his name was. And um we went dancing somewhere in leather. Um there was a dance bar in Adelaide that we went to. It wasn't specifically a leather um dance bar, but we thought we would wear some leather. And from memory, I'm pretty sure I wore my chaps and I wore the mule cap that I bought when I bought the chaps from Lori Lane. And um yeah, I had no idea there was an actual leather competition on and you know some guy just came up to me on the dance floor like literally tapped me on the back and then he said you know hi my name's whatever you know I'm from the and I think he said the southern regions motorcycle club. I've never actually been able to confirm that but it definitely had motorcycle club at the end of it. So anyway, so he said where he was from and he's like, you know, we're we're holding a um a competition for Mr. Leather here tonight and we were just wondering if you would like to enter. >> Wow. >> And I was like blown away like you know cuz I'd only recently started wearing the the chaps and the um the mure cap and I thought wow okay if I what and I said to the guy what what do I need to do? And um he just said to me, quote unquote, he said, "You don't need to do anything. Just keep doing what you're doing now." >> Wow. Wow. >> And all I was doing was just dancing with my partner, Greg. So >> Wow. >> Um and then yeah, I I won the competition. I got a medallion. Uh, if you remember, I said to you, I still have that medallion, but it's downstairs in storage, and I cannot for the life of me remember which particular box I've put it in because I'm well known for putting boxes within boxes within boxes. So, >> it's there somewhere. I know that I haven't thrown it out, but yeah, I and I remember it said on the front, you know, regular medallion on the front. It said Mr. leather 1990 or n 1991. Um, and then on the back it had Southern Regions Motorcycle Club, whatever it was. >> Wild. >> I'll prove it to you one day. I will find it. One day I will go down there, pull out every single box, open them all up, um, and I'll find it and I'll send a photo of it to you. >> You were discovered. I love it. I love it. >> I was I was. And I wasn't trying to be discovered, you know, it was just an accident. Like Greg and I, we had no idea there was a leather comp on that night. >> But what what leathers and kink activities or fetish activities? Let's throw the whole thing out there. What among those do you like? >> What do I like? Okay. in terms of my own the things that I like and the things that I don't like or I'm not I'm not that keen on um I like um sounding big fan of sounding. I've been doing that for years. Um and also CBT. I like CBT. Um I was doing that in my teens when I was living in Queensland to myself. So, you know, even back then when I was like 14, 15 years old, I didn't realize it at the time, but I was already kinky or >> boring. >> Um, >> so yeah, I was um so I like sounding I like CBT. I like saline infusions. I've done that a few times. That's um quite interesting. You know, it feels amazing. Um, and it looks amazing as well, you know, cuz some guys they'll have a saline infusion before they go to a dance party, you know, they'll do it so that they look bigger in their jock strap and so on >> or before they go to the the gay beach or whatever. So, >> yeah. >> Um, I think I've had maybe four or five saline infusions all up. So, you know, it's not like I've been doing it for many, many, many years. I had my first infusion I think about three years ago now um with a friend of mine who was practicing you know universal precautions and who knew what he was doing um you know he had the gloves on all that kind of stuff. >> So I was very impressed. Um so yeah I like sounding I like saline CBT I like you know just the usual [ __ ] being [ __ ] that kind of thing. um sucking um not into some other things that some other guys like. I know younger men, younger leather men nowadays are really into fisting. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's really there's been a resurgence. You know, I see it everywhere nowadays. Yeah. >> You know, that's true. Sometimes I go somewhere like a sex party or whatever and I'm like, "Oh gosh, there's a there's a lot of fisting going on tonight." >> Yeah. So, I don't know if you've seen that as well in the US, but here in Australia, I have really noticed in the last 10 years, so many young men who aren't necessarily into leather, >> but you know, just young gay men are into fisting. >> Yeah. >> So, it's not just the leather community. >> Um, I don't have a problem with it. I've tried it. Uh, it just didn't do much for me. Um, like I remember I've got a little story for you here if you want to hear it. [laughter] >> Okay. >> I I I was at the lead hotel. Um, this was um I think the late 80s, early 90s. So, you know, this was me um you know, in the process of becoming a leather man. I remember there was a guy there one night who was staring at me, but he wasn't staring at my eyes, you know, my face or my chest or whatever. >> I couldn't he was staring at his field of vision. I'm like I looked behind me and I thought, what what's he staring at? It looks like he's staring at me. And then Eventually, I thought, is he is he staring at my hands? [laughter] And in fact, to cut a long story short, you know, I I chatted to him a little bit later. He was staring at my wrists because he liked >> he was hoping that I would fist him. >> Got it. >> And I I have skinny wrists. So, you know, I wasn't surprised, you know, when I thought about it later on. So, I I'd never done that before. Um, I knew I knew that it it was a thing. Uh, and it was on my list to try it, >> but this guy, I chatted to him. He was a really nice guy. He was a fisting bottom. Um, I don't know whether that's called a fisty fistto fisty. I've got no idea, but anyway. >> Yeah, we get the idea. Yeah. >> Um, so I thought, you know what? I'm I'm, you know, I'm up for it. Let's give it a go. So I fisted him. I think he was staying in the accommodation above the ledge from memory. >> Okay. Yeah. >> I I was guided by him, you know. He he knew how to do this whereas I didn't >> and it went really well. Um he had a great time. >> I ended up with a sore shoulder. [laughter] Um, and I did I got a long way. Like I got down to my elbow. I was shocked like you know I thought wow like I have gone that far into him. That's scary. >> Like if I'm not careful here I could do some damage. So look I I've I fisted him. That was the one and only time I've ever fisted someone. Um, I did try and fist my partner Greg that I mentioned to you before >> because we we on one occasion we decided we would try to do this. So, I tried fisting him, he tried fisting me, we got close, but it just didn't happen. Um, I would have liked if it had have happened, you know, I wasn't against it, but it just wasn't to be. >> Yeah. And you know, we never got around to trying it another time because there are so many other things that you can do other than fisting. >> So, you know, like um yeah, I I fisted a guy once. I've never been fisted, so I'm not exactly into it. It didn't do a lot for me. I know he was having a great time. Um, like I said, I just ended up with a sore shoulder, but I I kind of got off on the fact that he was having such a good time. Like, I was giving him so much pleasure. >> Yeah. >> So, I didn't get hard. I didn't come, but it didn't matter. I I still I enjoyed it. You know, if if I met someone tomorrow, you know, who who was interested in me and they wanted me to fist them, if they asked me, I would do it. >> Cool. Yeah, you know, enjoy it. Why not? So, >> yeah, absolutely. Oh, and um now what else? Um is there anything else that I'm really interested in? Um >> just the usual like I'm not I'm not a dom if you know what I mean. Um which is something that comes up on social media all the time, you know, because of the name that I use, Oz Leather Daddy. H >> some some young leather men associate being a daddy with being a dom, but they're two different things. >> Yes. >> Yeah. They don't know. >> My book My book will explain it to you. It's like, you know, you can be you can be a dom and you can also be a daddy. >> Yeah. And u but like you know one if you're a dom you're not necessarily a daddy or if you're a daddy you're not necessarily dom as in dominant >> right. >> So yeah I was what I was going to say is um I get that all the time on Scruff. I have a Scruff account. >> In fact I'm thinking about closing it down and setting up another account somewhere else because I keep getting these guys that send me messages and it's like hey daddy. Yeah, >> that's all they do. Hey, daddy. And they unlock their photos. >> Yeah. >> Or um, and I know this is something that you flagged when I spoke to you the last time. This is a misconception about me. Okay. >> The the misconception is that I'm a dom. It's like, >> let's save that for the for the end. Yeah. We want to talk more about that. Yeah. >> Okay. But um >> yeah, so they're they're the sorts of things that I like to do. I'm pretty easygoing. I'll try most things at least once. Um I have been flogged uh probably about two years ago. It took me a while to get around to it cuz I've always been a bit apprehensive, but it I was playing with someone, you know, he got the whip out and he said, "Would it be okay if I" and I thought, "Yeah, why not? Let's see how this goes." and I enjoyed it. >> There you go. >> I didn't think that I would. And so I haven't sorted it out since, but again, if someone if I met someone and they wanted to do that, I would say yes, but I'm a bit of a newbie. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Let them know. Exactly. >> And and I would do it to someone else. you know, if someone wanted me to flock them, if they had the gear, >> you know, I know you've got to avoid the kidneys and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. >> Um, I would do it. >> Absolutely. >> But, you know, somewhere somewhere someone somewhere is exploring all of the leather kink fetish community activities and things and they're going to see this interview somewhere on YouTube. Now, what advice or guidance can you offer someone new coming into the scene? >> I would say um take your time. Uh get to know a few people. Um this is assuming you're in a big city and you know you've got you know leather and kink bars um near where you live but yeah try and get to know a few people um maybe they will one of them can be like a mentor to you. >> Yeah >> to get offer you a bit of guidance but also um you know do your research. There's no, you know, get onto the internet if you've got access to the internet. Um, you know, become a member of Bluff, for example. Um, uh, buy buy books like my own. It's like, [laughter] you know, finding your leather tribe. So, you know, just, um, but take your time and, um, you know, don't feel the pre pressure to do something you don't want to do. You know, it's all about consent at the end of the day. So >> if you've if some guy if you meet some guy at a bar and he wants to flog you and you know >> you're interested then you know you need to um you need to negotiate. >> So yeah you know you need to give your consent and you need to let him know that you've never done this kind of thing before. So, you know, >> take your time. Don't rush into it, you know, and do don't do it under duress. Don't, you know, because he's a hot guy and you don't want to have this opportunity to, you know, make out with him. >> So, yeah, I would say, you know, do your research, go out um to bars. Bars are the a good starting point. So, just go to a bar, you know, check it out, go go there a few times, make a decision as to whether or not, you know, it's it's your kind of thing because you might decide in the long run that you don't want to go down the leather path after all. >> Yeah. >> You might curious, but then when once you start looking at it, you might think, "No, this is not really what I want to do actually." >> Yeah. >> And pull back. So, you know, there's no harm in pulling back. Um, >> well, and there is a delineation between leather per se and uh more SM activities. These are these can be indigenous. >> Yeah. And and and there are some men who wear leather out to the bars who aren't really into kink. >> I do meet them now and then. So, I guess you would call them vanilla leather. I don't really know. Yeah, I mean I I fit somewhere in that and it's more or less I'm a little bit more uh personality >> like [clears throat] [laughter] >> Yeah, I mean I'm I meet guys like that now and then, you know, when you talk to them about what they like to do, you know, and and it's like, well, they they'll say, well, I like to to, you know, I'm a tough I like to [ __ ] I like to be sucked kind of stuff. And they don't mention any other stuff that, you know, I'm familiar with. And I'm like, "Okay, so on a scale of kinkiness, I'm probably a little bit more kinky than you are, >> but I know other people who are incredibly kinky. >> They're kind of scary because they are interested in so many different kinks, you know, like what what some people would call the heavy duty stuff." >> Yeah. >> And I'm kind of in the middle. like you know some of the heavy duty stuff. Um I've done some of it and it wasn't for me but you know some of it like some people say saline infusions that's heavy duty and I'm like no it's not >> all I've got to do is just lie back you know I've got the um >> all you know >> it just depends upon your interpretation of these things and they how they afraid of needles you know obviously it would be a big thing but I'm not afraid of needles like when my friend gives me my saline infusion. He'll put a needle on both sides so that it's quicker because otherwise it just takes forever [laughter] >> and you know in the in the meantime you're doing the crossword or whatever >> for all the saline to go in. But um yeah, look um I would just say you know um take your time you know there's no rush but you know see if you can you know make some friends and maybe you know come to an arrangement with one of them if they they might want to be your mentor or they might want to take you under their wing as their son. So you can do that whole son daddy thing with them >> and this guy the daddy might you know have be a dominant or he might be more of a sub himself. I mean you know cuz >> you know nowadays you'll have a sub with a sub >> or a sub with a dom or you'll have a dom with two subs or >> two gets very convoluted. >> I know it gets so confusing. It's like, well, hey, you know, the I remember I was at the lead last year and this sub that I know, he was wearing his chastity cage and everything and he mentioned his sub and I'm I'm like, "What? You've got a sub, >> but you're a sub?" >> And he said, "Yeah, but you know, we're allowed to." And I'm like, "Wow, >> it's wild. >> It is." >> Yeah. This year you published a book which is our main one of our main issues today. Now you published finding your leather tribe. Now the book is a fascinating collection of uh leather sort of coming of age and growth and exploration stories. Um and there are what 22 in the collection. Is that correct? >> Three. 23. >> 23. Okay. And they are from worldwide which is really amazing. Now where did the idea come from for you? >> Um July last year I needed a break from job hunting. [laughter] >> Okay. I'd been doing that for six months and I felt like I was going down a bit of a rabbit hole mentally and I remember I was looking for something to read. So I got onto Amazon and you know typed a few different things. I think leather was one of them. I thought oh yeah like le leather fiction that kind of thing. Anyway, um, Amazon in its wisdom decided, you know, because of its algorithms, whatever, to show me coming out stories. They weren't >> specifically gay coming out stories, just coming out stories in general. And, um, I clicked on one or two of them and, you know, kind of looked at them. I think one of them I downloaded the sample and had a bit of a read and I thought, you know, there was no leather in the coming out story that I downloaded, but it was interesting. And I thought, I wonder if there are coming out stories for leather men as in, you know, they they come out, you know, as gay to begin with. >> Yeah. >> And then later on they come out, you know, to their fetish. And you know, lo and behold, it turned out that our friend Jack Fritzer had already looked at this. He had um he in one of his books um I think it was the the life and times of Larry Town. >> Oh, I'm going to get it wrong. The uh the life and times of the legendary Larry Townsen. Anyway, I I downloaded a sample of one of his books. I think that was the name of it. And he mentioned uh this whole concept of coming out twice. >> Yes. >> Which apparently um Larry Townsen had mentioned in um a magazine uh back in like 1976, you know. So gay men come out twice. They come out their sexuality and then to their fetish. >> Yes. >> And as we know now as in IML, sometimes they come out three times or four times. they can. >> Um, so I, yeah, I just thought, okay, maybe this could be an interesting passion project for me, something that I can do on the side while I'm continuing to look for work. And um, so I thought, okay, the thing what I need to do is put a questionnaire together. So I went into Google Forms, um, put some questions together. Um, I wasn't really sure what questions to ask to begin with, but I think I found a questionnaire that someone else had used. >> Excuse me. >> And it was a PDF and I adapted some of those questions and added in some of my own. Um, but I wanted it to be a fairly short questionnaire like some questionnaires are like, you know, 70 or 80 uh questions. >> Yeah. >> I want I don't want to do that. So, I kept it to 30 questions. I didn't talk about leather sex like we've been doing unfortunately because there was just I didn't have enough space to do that. Um so yeah I put a questionnaire together and then I got onto social media in particular Instagram uh and to a lesser extent Facebook just looking for likely candidates and in my mind >> what I wanted to do was I wanted to get a wide cross-section like >> it would would have been so easy for me to just reach out to my friends you know in Melbourne in Sydney some friends that I've got in Europe and North America but they'd all be you know fight. They'd all be in their 50s or their 60s. >> They would have had a similar um narrative arc to my own cuz my story is in the book as well, by the way. >> And I thought, well, that that sounds like a boring book to me. [laughter] >> Good point. So I thought what I want to do is I want um Asian leather men, you know, leather men who were born and raised in China, Japan, uh Thailand, uh Indonesia. Um and I also want um leather men who were married, you know, had a wife, had kids, and then came out as gay, you know, maybe in their 30s or their 40s. And um you know then after coming out as gay they then come came out as leather men. Although some some men I've discovered come out as gay and leather men at the same time. >> Yeah. >> It's a dual process. Whereas others they come out as gay and then they'll come out as a leather man 10 20 30 years later even. >> Yeah. A little later. Yeah. >> Happens. Um, so yeah, I I wanted a wide cross-section and I didn't just want, you know, men who are um neurosurgeons who've got lots of money to spend on leather because they are out there. I see their social media now and then some of these guys um some of these medical doctors that you've got in the US um >> you know obviously they've got a fair bit of money cuz they you know they get out and about but I wanted to get if possible access other men who were into leather >> who've had to you know save their pennies to buy their first pair of chaps or their first cap. So yeah, and I wanted to not just do Europe and North America. I thought it would be great to get some um leather men who are in Asia, in South America, obviously some here in Australia. Um because a lot of people that live in, you know, the northern hemisphere, they they think Australia is just a desert, like the whole of Australia. >> Yeah. you know, the number of times they, you know, you can tell you'll be talking to someone and it's like they don't get it. Like Melbourne is a lot like a European city. It's not desert at all. >> Yeah. >> I I still remember, just as an aside, when my grandfather came here from the UK on holidays, he wanted to go for a day trip. He didn't realize how big Australia was. >> That's I was living in Brisbane. He wanted to go for a day trip to the Great Barrier Reef and we all laughed at him like he was dead serious and he's like >> it takes a day just a day to drive from Brisbane to um Townsville. >> So yeah, >> getting back to what I was saying before, I wanted to make sure that it was a global directory that I wasn't just doing Europe or just doing the US. And I did try and get leather men in South Africa, but so far I haven't had any luck. I believe they're out there. I did reach out to one or two of them on Bluff, but they didn't respond. >> Yeah. >> And I thought, well, that's fair enough. >> It's a small community. I'll say that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Which I thought it would be, you know. I thought if anything there might be some leather men in South Africa. I doubt that there would be any in, you know, like the Democratic Republic of the Congo or whatever, but >> they exist, but they're very closeted, you know. >> Actually, after I after I'd um, you know, reached the number that I wanted in terms of stories, I discovered a group of leather men who live in Indonesia >> and I thought, who would have thought? >> Yeah. >> Like, I've seen their posts a few times. I'm following them on Instagram and I'm like, well, you know, maybe in the next edition I'll pull in some more stories. >> There you go. I I totally in support of that. Totally. >> Yeah. I mean, >> so yeah, I I wanted to make it a global directory and I wanted it to be more than just stories. Like I wanted it to be something that people could use as like a reference manual. Yeah. uh you know like I I created an index in the back of the book for that very reason. I thought okay let's say I live in Melbourne, Australia. Let's say I'm traveling to Chicago for work. I want to see what's on offer in Chicago. So all I've got to do is go to the index, go to Chicago, and it'll show you, you know, Bluff Chicago and all of the different bars and social groups that are available in Chicago. >> Yeah. Because I thought, well, that's what a lot of, you know, leather men will do. Their time is poor. >> They don't want to read the whole book. They'll just go to the index. >> Yes. Yes. >> See if whatever destination they're going to has something on offer when it comes to the leather and kink community. But uh one of the little blurbs I guess that that found that I found fascinating regarding your book is that Graham Clark carries the leather identity torch that we lit 50 years ago in the leather bible drummer magazine. >> Yep. >> What have you to say to that? When when I approached Jack Fritzer about getting a an endorsement for my book, >> yes, >> in my mind, I was thinking, okay, so he's the creme de la creme when it comes to leather culture culture and history. Um, I thought he's not going to even respond to me, but he did >> and he said absolutely. So he wrote that um that book endorsement. He actually wrote something that's quite a bit longer than that which I've put in the back of the book >> because know it it was it was really well written. Um so I thought I'll just take that snippet and put it on the back cover of the book. Um because I loved it. Yeah, I can see that >> it um it put me under a lot of pressure though, I've got to tell you because when I read that I thought, "Oh my god, game on." It's [laughter] like, >> "Well, >> I've got to make sure I do a really good job of this." >> Well, but you're you're the the accolades that are coming toward you are very wonderful. I mean a vetted global directory, 140 plus leather and kink social groups, bars, events, and then also find your leather tribe anywhere, a detailed, easy to use index of 60 plus destinations. I mean, that's incredible. Truly, >> it's all I'm going to say is I'm a good researcher. I I should have been a private investigator. Like I've been using Google. I've been using AI to find stuff. You know, I'm like at times I'm looking for leather bars in, you know, Berlin, in London, in Chicago, in New York. I'm not trying to cover every single city in the world, but that's why I've said it's a curated, carefully curated global directory because I just want to cover off the main the main leather areas so to speak in the world. So, obviously Europe, leather is big in Europe. Um, leather is also big in North America, in the US and Canada, and also Mexico. I've had a number of leather men in Mexico reach out to me >> and I've had to say to some of them, "Look, I'm sorry. I've got my full quota of um leather men from Mexico." I think I ended up in the book with um two or three leather men from Mexico, one from Argentina, one from Brazil. So yeah, I was I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to find leather men in Mexico. >> Who would have thought? >> And I've also heard anecdotally um from a well-known leather influencer that there's quite a strong leather community in of all places Brazil. >> Yes. That's that's been coming up over recent years. Yeah. >> Yeah. So I thought that's interesting. So, in terms of, you know, making my book available on Amazon, you know, I could choose where I wanted it to be available, I I ticked Brazil to begin with. Anyway, I thought, well, I'll give it a go. And now I'm glad that I did because at some point, you know, once the word word starts to get out about my book, hopefully I'll I'll make some sales in Brazil, even though it's in English. Hopefully, there are some Brazilian leathermen that can read English fairly well. >> Some will. Yeah, >> but who knows? There might be a Brazilian edition of my book at some point. >> It can happen. >> Yeah, I've already had someone suggest that to me, you know, he um his first language is Spanish and he said, "You should put this book, have it, you know, translate it into Spanish and put out a Spanish edition." I'm like, "Oh my god, >> if the opportunity comes, I say do it." >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I would do it because there's so many um you know leather communities around the world. >> Yes. >> In Spanish speaking countries, you know, like in Brazil, not Brazil, Brazil's Portuguese, but the other side of South America, Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Chile, you know, >> they've all got um leather and king social groups. I've seen them. You know, some of them I've got listed in my book. Um and obviously Mexico is Spanish as well. And then you've got um Spain itself. Um, so yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I've tried to make the book um the kind of book that you can just pick up, you know, time and time again for various reasons, you know, for the index at the back and also because you want to know if there's a really good um kink app out there. I've even listed some kink apps. I find fascinating the people that have come forward to share all of this. You know, in some interviews, you can't pull teeth from people. So, I was >> I've had >> I've had some um guys who have point blank said, "No, I'm not interested." You know, because it's too traumatic. Um, it was not a a good time in my life when I, you know, came out as a leather man. Uh, and I'm like, absolutely, I I totally understand that. You know, you know where to find me if things change, etc., etc. So, you know, I don't want to I don't want to cause, you know, mental health issues for them. >> And I've had other guys that have said to me, I'm interested. I'm just wondering, will you have my full name in the book? will you have a photo of me? And I've said, look, I'll have a photo of you, but just your first name and you know, if need if if you're if you don't want your first name in there, we can just change it. >> You know, we can assume name just use the name you want us to use. And in terms of the photo, it can be photo of the back of you like with a leather vest on or something like that, not the front. So, but the thing is I've I I haven't really I mean I thought that that might be an issue. The fact that I was I was wanting to include photos, but in the end it wasn't. I've only had a small number of men who've said no, I don't want to do this. Um you know, um I've mostly mostly they've said, "Yep, that's fine." You know, I've said, "Look, you realize your first name and your photo will go into the book." And they're like, "Yep, no problem. Absolutely." >> Yeah. For some people it'd be nothing. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But um but in Finding Your Leather Tribe, you you start the book with a trigger warning mentioning references to homophobia, religious issues, various forms of abuse, substance use, and explicit references to sexuality, kink, and fetish. Now, >> I think I was probably being a little bit overzealous, >> but why did you choose to include that that that warning? >> Well, I think it's good to have a warning because it it could induce trauma in some people like >> um you know, it occurred to me when I read some of the stories, some of them had, you know, made my eyes water. I wasn't crying as such, but some of the stories were sad. >> Some of them were really uplifting. Um, you know, they didn't start so well, but they got, you know, the story ended up having a happy ending, so to speak. >> Um, >> and so I thought, look, I better put a warning in the front cover. And then, you know, I put in anything and everything that I could think of. But in actual fact, um, after the conversation you and I had recently, I did a search through the stories for, you know, homophobia and drugs and all that kind of stuff, and I actually, um, edited that section down a little bit because I thought it is a bit overwhelming if you read that. It's like, oo, I'm not sure that I want to read these stories. So I just I think I was being a little bit um over careful, a little bit too, you know, conservative because yeah, a lot of those things were not mentioned. There's grief definitely. There's grief, there's loss. Uh there's one story in there about a a guy who part his partner passed away. His partner was also a leather man. passed away after they'd been together for like 20 years or something all of a sudden and he was alone like you know this leather man that his boyfriend husband was his whole life and then like he had to start all over again. he had to start going to the leather bars um >> in his in the city >> and he said that he was lost like he would he just didn't know what to do for a whole year >> and you know then he realized slowly he realized look I have to do something about this you know he was with his partner for so long their circle of friends had become smaller and smaller over the years until it was basically just the two of And now he's got to go out there and you know press the flesh, whatever you want to call it. >> Yeah. >> And you know, create a new um social circle. So yeah, I mean that was a bit sad because his partner passed away um >> Yeah. >> I think it was and there was someone else whose partner passed away from AIDS. So AIDS got mentioned. >> Yeah. >> You'd have to in in a book like that. Yeah, >> absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so yeah, there are some, you know, stories that are, you know, they've got a happy beginning, a happy middle, and a happy ending. There's no, you know, darkness in there whatsoever. Whereas others, you know, there was one guy um I I think he said something about his mother was an alcoholic >> and his father was domestic abu domestically abusing his mother or something. and I thought, >> "Yeah, >> that's not good." Um, >> so yeah, there are some really interesting stories in there and I've gone out of my way to make sure they're all different. I did get some stories um that were similar to other stories and I thought, well, I don't want to include those because it's like we're repeating ourselves here. >> Yeah. So, so look, you know, at the end of the day, I'm still I'm still looking for stories, [laughter] you know, even though we've now reached 23, you know, who knows if some really interesting stories come my way from leather men who live in South Africa, Indonesia, um, Iceland. I haven't seen any leather men from Iceland. I'd love a leather. >> I mean, I I know bears from Iceland. Maybe I don't know if they're maybe a little too far off your your radar, but >> if you know someone in Iceland who's a leather bear, as in they do a bit of both, possibly. >> I can ask. >> We'll take that off air and we'll talk about that. >> [laughter] >> Um, >> but yeah, so I want the book to, you know, for you to not necessarily read it from beginning to end, you know, cover to cover, just to jump in and, you know, read the bits that are of interest to you, which might be the index at the back, or it might be the the story that I did on um, you know, uh, sex and play in uh, leather spaces and that kind of thing. Um, >> but undoubtedly, and you've even alluded to this, undoubtedly there are going to be a lot of people who were not included in this book, and once they see the success of it, they see who was included, they're going to want to be included in the future. >> Yes. >> Now, how are you going to manage that? Um, I I was thinking about that the other day because I've had someone recently who was stalking me basically um was ringing me over and over and I had to block this person >> on Instagram. >> And I said to him a number of times, I said, "Look, I'm really sorry, but you know, the book is full. That's it. You know, nothing against you personally. So yeah, and I've had another um a couple of others that um who did the survey who were a bit disappointed that they were not in the book and I had to to say to them exactly what I said to this other guy. You know, I I was looking for variety and some of the stories were quite similar and I was trying to avoid that. Um so I wanted the stories to be unique and they're all unique. I don't think any of the stories that are in there now are in any way similar. Um, I'm still looking for, by the way, the story of a trans person. Like, I'm I'd love to find a leather man who may have started life as a female and then has, you know, changed. >> There is someone I think in Melbourne I interviewed. Um me let me look him up. Okay. Um >> the thing is I've got my quoter in Melbourne. That's the I was kind of hoping for someone OS someone overseas. I did approach someone on Instagram um who was quite >> for upfront about you know transitioning and becoming a leather man. But in the end he decided not to do the survey. I sent him the link and I followed up a couple of weeks later, asked him how it was going and you know, I didn't get any response. So I thought, well, no response is a response basically. In other words, I'm not interested after all. I changed my mind. >> But that's the thing in the survey as well, I did say um because I thought I don't want someone doing the survey who doesn't identify as a leatherman. So, one of the I think the very first question or maybe the second question is, do you identify as a leather man? Um, because I want them to actually say that they do. They've got to say yes to then proceed and answer the rest of the questions. If they say no, then they can't do the survey. And I'm also aware of the fact that there are [clears throat] >> uh leather men who are not gay. >> So, this book, yeah, it's about gay leather men. I've said gay leather men. >> Yeah. >> Intentionally because I know there are um leather men and leather women who are straight who play with each other. You know, leather man, leather woman play together. But you know, >> so that that's a different book maybe. Who knows? >> But I've got as as I'm as I'm hearing you, I know someone uh who's trans female to male and he's in Florida. I mean, if you like, I can send him a message. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. >> All right. Yeah, I can do that. >> Um, >> you know, I'm bringing out the um the soft cover uh later this year. I'm looking at July. Oh, probably more like August to be honest. Um so July. >> Yeah. Um, but because I've already done the book as a PDF and then as an EPUB, the content's there. So, it's not a big ask for me to come up with the soft cover edition. Um, I can just kind of like use almost all of the content in the the PDF for example, but just remove all the hyperlinks because the PDF there are hyperlinks everywhere >> because obviously in a soft cover edition those hyperlinks are not going to work. >> Yeah, but I mean and if it was something you might want to use in the future even >> Yeah. >> You know, he might be uh worthwhile. >> Oh, [laughter] absolutely. I mean, I'm hoping that um the book will end up being wellreceived once I really start to promote it. Um and I know that there are some leather men out there that are interested in the book, but they're waiting for the paperback to come out. >> Yeah. >> You know, I I know a guy here in Australia who has told me as much. >> You know, he lives here in Melbourne and he's like, you know, as soon as the soft cover edition comes out, I'm going to buy a copy. So, yeah. So, yeah. um in in terms of you know surveys um I'm still interested but I'm just I'm being very very careful not to replicate the stories that are already in there >> and you can even just let me know if you want his contact information sometime later that's fine too >> but how are you going to promote this >> that's uh the $64 million question that's why I'm here with you >> because I I'm very much conscious of the fact that um I don't have the the funds to be able to travel to IML or to be able to go to Fetish um Falsam in Berlin and so on and so forth. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's just too expensive. So, I'm having to promote the book um using social media mostly. Uh but also I'm hoping for example the lead hotel you know where I discovered leather would make the perfect backdrop for a launch when they have AWOL a week of leather in August. >> So I did chat to the owner uh earlier this year couple of months ago now and he was like yep absolutely cool. >> So excellent. >> I want to do that but I also want to get into bookshops as well. So, >> there's a um a bookshop here in Melbourne, which you may have heard of, called Hairs and Hyenas. >> They've been around for a long time, and um um I've been in contact with um the owner. And he actually reached out to me recently. He's like, "Oh, how's the soft cover going?" So, he's still interested in, you know, including my book in the bookstore. They've got a bookstore at the the Pride Center in St Kilda. Um, so what I'll probably do is I'll probably, you know, try and get in into various bookstores both here in Melbourne and also elsewhere. There's a a couple that are on my radar in Sydney and Brisbane. And also, um, I've put a a list together that I've saved in my browser of all of these bookstores, the gay the gay and lesbian bookstores overseas, like Gay is the word, for example, in London. You know that one? Yeah. >> Um, there's a very well-known one in the in Manchester that's u very gay friendly as well that I'm also going to try and get the book into. So, it's it'll be about getting the book into these bookstores, but also using social media. So getting on to podcasts. >> So if you know of any podcasts, by all means let me know because >> you know I don't know what I don't know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I've sent a few emails already, but you know that that one that I mentioned to you the other day, Dads and Daddies, but you know, they seem to mostly go for uh American um guests. >> And doesn't mean that they would only >> Yeah. Anyway, I sent them an email and then I sent a follow-up email. >> So, maybe maybe I'll wait until the book has actually been published as a soft cover to then approach them and say, "Look, you know, my my soft cover has just been published. >> Um, it's where are they? Oh, they're in New York. It's available in New York at these bookstores. I'm wondering if you would be able to help me to promote it by having me come on your show as a guest, blah blah blah." So yeah, mostly I'll be I'm self-publishing the book, so I'll be promoting it by way of social media and also, you know, podcasts and interviews, that kind of thing. >> Cool. >> If you've got any suggestions, you know, I'm a newbie to all of this, but like I said to you the other day, I've learned a lot about publishing and I've learned a lot about social media over the course of the last 8 to 10 months. But we're coming up on on a little bit of time, so I want to make sure I get these last two questions with you. Okay. >> Okay. >> How would you like to be remembered by the community? >> Oh, how would I like to be remembered? Um, so I as someone who uh it was worth getting to know, someone who um gave back to the community, um someone who has a legacy that's worth looking at. Um because that's why I'm doing this. I'm I'm not doing it first and foremost to make money. Um you know, if you guys have looked at me a bit sheepishly and said, "Why are you doing this?" as if they I you know I get the feeling that they think I'm doing this for all the wrong reasons. I'm not. I'm doing it because I've enjoyed wearing leather over the last I don't know 35 40 years. >> Yeah. >> Um and you know I want to give back and I want to celebrate the voices of those that have come before. >> So for example, one of the guys in the book he he's he was born in 1948. I'm like, "Wow, we've got to get his story." So, you know, >> I put him in the book. That's um Elliot, I think his name is. He's like the second last story from memory. Good story. Good story. He lives in New York. Um so, yeah, I wanted to um celebrate our history. Um so, yeah, I want to be remembered for bringing out this book if nothing else. And you know, for people saying that, you know, it's an amazing book. you know, you it's it's a book that you need to read. >> What's the biggest misconception about you? [laughter] >> That's what I started talking about before. Um I get it all the time on um Scruff. Like guys will assume because of the the title that I'm using, Ole Daddy. >> They get confused. They conflate Dom with daddy. Like that's just crazy. you know, they they need to um do their research. Um so I get these messages, hey daddy, and you know, they want me to beat them up. Like I get that regularly. And I'm like, because I'm into leather, they assume, you know, there's this misconception that because you're into leather, >> you want to beat people up. You want to torture them. You want to hurt them. And that's the furthest from the truth. Like I couldn't imagine doing that. If someone want did want me to like whip them for example as a like a play thing, absolutely I would give it a go. But I, you know, that's not that's not my nature, you know, like that's just not me at all. [laughter] So I'm not a dom top. Um I'm actually verse. So I could I top now and then. Um but I'm quite happy bottoming as well. Just depends on the situation. I think they call that a switch nowadays. >> Yeah, it depends. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I'm I'm a switch. Um, and I'm not into the heavy leather stuff that we've talked about before. I'm kind of middle of the road, you know. I have some kinks, but not I don't like seeing blood, basically. >> Well, Graham Clark, author, leatherman, title holder, all from down under. Thank you for a fantastic interview on Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. And when this book becomes very successful, we'll talk some more. How about that? >> Absolutely. Yeah, let's do it.