Image Making and Innovation at MillerKnoll

We are delighted to welcome you all this evening for tonight's program Image making and innovation at Miller Null offered in conjunction with the exhibition Made in America the industrial photography of Christopher Payne currently on view in the second on the second floor of the museum. If you have not yet had a chance to see the exhibition we invite you to return by September 27th when it closes here at Cooper Hwitt. The exhibition will then tour the US via Smithsonian's traveling exhibition program. So, please do keep an eye out for those venues as well. We are very grateful to the Smithsonian 250 fund and to New Balance for their support of this exhibition. Our speakers tonight, archavist Amy Asherman and photographer Chris Payne, share the remarkable ability by a distinct media to capture through their work both the big picture and the granular details leading us to new perspectives and new understandings. Tonight we will experience their expertise through the lens of image making of manufacturing including me images of the people behind the labor at the iconic American design company Miller Null. The conversation tonight will be moderated by Susan Brown, acting head of textiles and the curator of made in America. Amy Asherman is director of archives and brand heritage at Miller Null, where she oversees one of the most extensive design archives in the US. In 2025, she led the opening of a facility uniting the historic archives of Herman Miller and Null. Under her direction, the archive shapes how new products are developed, which past designs return to production, and grounds how Miller Null understands its own history. She co-edited Herman Miller, a way of living and contributed to Isama Nguchi, I am not a designer and Leila and Masimo Vignelli, a language of clarity. Christopher Payne studied architecture at Columbia University and the University of Pennsylvania and worked as an architect for 12 years before committing full-time to photography. He is fascinated by design, assembly, and the built form. Over the past decade, through personal projects and editorial commissions, he has been on a photographic journey to learn more about what's made here, the traditional industries that built this country, as well as the newest and most technologically advanced processes. These images can be found in his latest book, Made in America. Payne's work frequently appears in the New York Times magazine, Popular Science, and other major publications including Interview, National Geographic, Scientific American, The Atlantic, Time, and Wired, among many others. Susan Brown is associate curator and acting head of textiles at Cooper Huitt, where she oversees a collection of more than 26,000 textiles produced over 2,300 years. She has curated or co-curated numerous exhibitions for Cooper Huitt starting with extreme textiles designing for high performance in 2005 all the way to made in America the industrial photography of Christopher Payne and most recently on our first floor she co-curated design across time exploring the Smithsonian's design collection in addition to cataloges for those exhibitions she has contributed to numerous other publications including Alexander Gerard a designer universe and Ruth Adler Schne modern designs for living. She has taught in the master's program in the history of design and curatorial studies offered jointly by the museum and Parsons and lectures regularly for the IFA at at New York University. I'm going to turn it over now to Amy. [applause] Thanks, Alexa. Thank you all for being here tonight for my slideshow and uh thanks to Susan and Chris. Um it's really exciting to get to share these images tonight that sometimes make their way out into the world either through publications, sometimes through museum exhibitions. Um, but I would say that for the archive at Miller Null, which comprises the historic archives of Herman Miller and Null, but also the 14 other or 12 other brands that are part of our collective, um, photography makes up a huge, if not the largest portion of the archive between um, photo negatives, the prints themselves, um, photography is really important in the furniture business. um one in that we're creating assets all the time now to put on our websites, the internet, wherever you're encountering us. Um but also in terms of image making, it's been a really important part of communicating about the products that we make. Um Gilbert Roadie, who was Herman Miller's first modern designer, um has a quote that says, "The most important thing in the room is not the furniture. it's the people and we have um so many great examples of that across the collection. Photography tells stories of not only how the furniture is made um but who's designing it and who's actually making it. Um so all to say it is a really important part of our heritage, our history. Um, and conveniently when you go through um, you know, a historic merger of two of the most iconic design brands in the world, it's great to have a photo of two of the most recognizable designers of those competing brands or formerly competing uh, together. So this is Charles Emmes and Aerosin um, when they were collaborating at Cranbrook Academy of Art. Um, what does this convey? conveys maybe the future, conveys them collaborating. Uh it looks like they like each other, which helps. And so this has been um a really powerful image to get to share as we kind of build uh what is Miller Null? Who are we? What does it consist of? Um there's also these hero making images in a way. This is Charles Emmes at Cranbrook working on what would become an entry into the organic design for home furnishings competition. um the beginnings of molded plywood which would later inform stuff like molded fiberglass. Um but other images in the archive also really talk about the people who make Herman Miller null and beyond. This is a employee photograph as of 1926 of Herman Miller's whole entire staff out in front of um our manufacturing facility in Zealand, Michigan. Uh that building is still there. We don't currently occupy it. Um, but uh I love this image mostly because I'll point you can't really see her, but this woman right here, Hannah May Borst, she was the um executive assistant, you would say, for our founder, DJ Depri, and basically started the archive. So, I love that she's at the center of that photo. Um, here's another image of that same building. But you know the images in our collection are made either like this. This is probably a snapshot from one of our former executives. Um we also have a lot of images made by lapsed architects like Chris uh in the collection that we'll see tonight. Um but again they are moments in time that maybe are composed, maybe are not. But I love this image because you're seeing all of the raw material outside of the factory in Zealand. I think those are lofts now. Um, and then you see the machinery. You get to see what people are wearing. Um, but again this notion of capturing the insides of the factories, the people that are making the things. Um, sometimes it's showing you again the raw materials, um, the people's hands who are making them. But I think photography for the types of products that we make, um, how it actually comes together is such an important part of understanding it. Um, people's hands are literally making these things. uh still like that today but again seeing throughout the decades people's fashions changing OSHA coming on board um but you know again this notion of you know someone decided to capture this moment you know wasn't necessarily in a catalog that I'm aware of but that intent of um kind of crystallizing these moments or showing people how this stuff comes together um I believe these photographs were by Charles Emmes or someone in the EMS office. But in terms of innovation, this is kind of it as it's happening as it uh pertains to the EMS molded plywood furniture. So this would have been in a Venice, California plant where um this is after Charles Emmes and the rest of the office had had the furniture show at MoMA. New furniture designed by Charles Emmes. That was where Herman Miller leadership was first made aware of this group of furniture. Um and then after that they kind of had to figure out actually how to make it in mass. And so the Emmeses were designers who were not only bringing the forms uh to the manufacturers but they were also inventing the machines how to make it. So bending and molding plywood um but you can kind of see the chairs as they come together. And so this is probably staged I mean or maybe they're getting ready to go into their crates. Um, but again a con a conscious decision of capturing this moment that's also telling you that there's not just one of these, there's a lot of these and the innovation and figuring out how to make more than one was a feat for both the EMS office and Herman Miller. Um, Charles Emmes was always photographing around the office as was Rey. Um they have I would say hundreds of thousands if not millions of photos at the Library of Congress. Um but Charles loved taking photos around Herman Miller manufacturing facilities. So seeing through his eyes what is catching um his attention uh unsurprising that a stack of shells for EMS lounge and Ottoman pieces um sitting in a corner getting ready to be assembled was special to him. Um, I mean this is also just like a selection of some of my favorite manufacturing images in the collection. Um, these are George Nelson table bases that are going through I think a curing process. Uh, but again showing you um, again what happens to these things as they're coming into the world. Um, and then kind of like Chris's show upstairs, seeing inside of a machine that most people never get to see inside of. Um, it's also some of these, you know, composed, really beautiful, heroic shots of the people on the floor. Um, so seeing this woman in front of Gerard Textiles, it's I don't know that it is artificially lit, but um, it's one that kind of conveys the dayto-day while also showing you the beauty of the product. And then you get moments of collaboration, maybe staged a bit, but also uh, giving you the sense of who's behind these products. um the hand process that literally goes into them. Um and then also showing the diversity of the workforce along the way. Uh this was a shot of some of the metal work that was happening specifically for George Nelson's modern management group um in our Zealand factory. Uh but I think you know the photos like the show upstairs range from these really tight shots of process to thing images that are very architectural. So an image like this if you look close kind of understand what's happening but you get this sense of scale. Um, so [gasps] we have a in the collection, some of the photos are anonymous. Some of them you turn around the print and you're like, "Oh my gosh, that's an Ezra Stler photograph." Um, and so in 1946ish, uh, George Nelson was readying his first modern furniture collection for Herman Miller. He was putting together a catalog and he wasn't really happy with the local talent in Zealand uh to photograph his new groundbreaking furniture collection. And so he went to DJ Dupri, Herman Miller's founder, and said, "I want to hire this guy as restoer. It might be a little bit more expensive, but I think we need to convey um the quality of our product through the quality of our images, our marketing material." And so Stler was hired and his take on something as simple as a furniture pole becomes little tiny architectures and something that if you don't know what you're looking at, it's like am I looking at another planet? Um or this image of the Nguchi coffee table, which would have been the first encounter that so many people would have had of this table at mid-century. And uh from any way you look at it, it looks like it came from outer space. But this really makes it look like it came from outer space. And I think the um viewpoint of Staller, who's usually photographing buildings or interiors of buildings, takes on that point of view for a piece of furniture and turns this into a piece of architecture. And then he was also photographing um our showrooms as well. So um a showroom space for George Nelson, for Herman Miller, especially this 1948 one was also a medium in which the company was communicating about how to live with this stuff. Um I think we take for granted that this table is quite ubiquitous. However, when this stuff came out, it looked crazy to people. And so part of our role as the company that was making it and trying to sell it to you was inspiring you to actually put it in your own space and hiring a photographer like Stler to get those perfect shots within the showroom uh really helped sell. Um, another collection of images that we have that was like an oh my gosh moment was um some sets of photos by Bruce Davidson, the Magnum photographer, who was friends with a designer named Ron Beckman in George Nelson's office. And he kind of came just for fun in the early 60s to see what was going on. and he made this beautiful photo um of our main site building in Zealand, Michigan. And this really does give you the sense of place. Has anyone been to Zealand before? West Michigan. Okay. So, um when you think about these uh monumental now iconic pieces of modern design, this is where it started. Um I regret that these aren't probably going to register great, but some contact sheets from Davidson's shoots where he's in um the manufacturing facilities itself. And then again an image making photo. This is our founder DJ Depri um sitting on a very rare Alexander Gerard Sati that was done custom for the Hallmark apartment. if anyone's really into Gerard. Um, but just the moment of Davidson, you know, being on the floor, um, DJ being very conscious of being a leader, being a founder and showing that he's participating in the process. He's sitting on a prototype. Um, he's seeing if the if the measurement is right for the leg. Um but that moment being captured and then shared beyond um kind of communicating the company and what it's about. Um sometimes photos were made as I don't know I guess you could maybe call this like an early brand collaboration or um the EMS is pointing to what their stuff was made out of. So the EMS aluminum group was launched in 1958 and part of that launch was conducting a um photo essay of how it actually comes together. So you're melting down the raw alcoa aluminum and then once the side membranes are done, well somebody's got to screw it all together and then oh here's the seat pan. And then it's, you know, getting assembled and gonna go on a box and then you can sit in it. Um, I feel like I'm teasing Chris with these because he wanted to get uh fiberglass manufacturing and he wasn't able to. But you know, the EMS fiberglass chairs, uh, the process of making them was so photogenic that Ray and Char Charles Emmes made a whole film about it. So check it out on YouTube. But we have some of the stills um and other photography of the process in the archive. So you really understand um through images how these things come together. Again, pre- OSHA um the finishing that goes into it and the repetition, the mass. I think we're used to seeing these objects sometimes if you're not in a design within reach showroom um on a plinth in a museum in a singular setting, but actually this furniture was designed for everyone. There was a lot of it. The point of making it was that you could make a lot of it. Oh, and then this is definitely how they got boxed and came to you um when you were ordering them in the mid50s. But um I love this obviously very choreographed shot where um you know the box is coming together and this nice young man is packing it for you. Um and the process of making the EMS lounge and ottoman um really any of our pieces as you see tonight uh is so photogenic. It's so physical. Um the machines themselves are beautiful. Uh but it takes people to actually make this stuff. And so um seeing that interaction between human and machine um and the amount of brain power from humans that has to come together to actually make this stuff and finishing it. Um, another architectural photographer that we have represented in the collection is Balthazar Corab. Um, and so these images for the EMS tandem seating that was first installed in Aerosarn's Dulles airport which is another great thing we can point back to as Millerol is they've always been collaborating. We've always been collaborating. Um, even so much so that when Aerosin was conceiving this, he wanted better airport furniture. So, he called up his old friend Charles Emmes. But as the business when you are going out to communicate about these new products um, and their use and how you can install them, I mean, having an insitu photo is pretty special. Um, this one is interesting because it's empty, but don't worry, he got one of people in it, too. um seeing people actually interact with it, sit on it, sleep. Cororab came back in the late 80s to our seating plant in Holland, Michigan to capture this facility that at this point in time was dedicated to foam production. So, you know, obviously a beautifully composed architectural shot. Um, but you're seeing this innovation or new innovation at that point, which was molded foam that we were using in ergonomic office seating, modular seating. Um, but this is a pretty surreal photo that then reminded me too, you know, designers take photos as well. So this is an image uh taken by Don Chadwick, a co-designer of the Aeron chair um during the making process of his modular seating for Herman Miller. Um so just like Charles Emes um seeing through their eyes what the designers, the people who are conceiving these products are seeing on a shop floor. Um photography of our test lab which is still in existence today. So, it's where we break things on purpose. Um, or see if you can stain them with lipstick and get it off. Um, but obviously these are compelling photos of people figuring things out on our premises, but they were also used as catalog page inserts. So Herman Miller is communicating who they are, what they're about, how we test our products um through the page because in reality that is mostly where people were encountering us if they weren't going into our showroom. So telling these stories of product quality, design, um and again the people behind them was important in a sales catalog. These are some images by the photographer John Donnut of our manufacturing facilities in Bath, England. And so, um, our building there was done by Sir Nicholas Grimshaw. Uh, we called it the action factory. It's made up of all of these individual panels that I love this very intentional juosition of people assembling things. So, the building itself is coming together. Donut is capturing that as well as this nice guy um assembling EMS's aluminum group in the UK. Then some other shots of the interior by Donnut that again feel more architectural but sort of showing you these machines with people in the foreground um and background pulling this stuff together. So Null also has an amazing photography archive that I think we're just kind of dipping our toes into. And so this is an image from 1941 of Null's manufacturing facility in East Greenville, Pennsylvania, where we still manufacture some of Null's most iconic pieces like the pedestal series. So unfortunately I don't know the author of these uh photographs but um not unlike Herman Miller null is capturing this process of making um and conveying that it's happening over and over again. And then you get these other alienike images of the bases hanging getting ready for assembly and then more more bases just waiting. Um, so I just love to think about uh whoever is taking these and what they're capturing around every corner. And then I think you know there's so much physicality, some of which you've seen in the other photographs. Um, but these are uh the Barcelona chairs coming together. And this process today doesn't look that much different. And again, sorry, I thought these contact sheets would be bigger, but um you can see the 40 individual pieces of leather that make up uh the cushions of a Barcelona chair, all laid out. And then all of the sewing that comes after to get them together and then all of the finishing of the tubular metal frames and beyond. Um, but contact sheets are kind of a really fun way to see more of a I guess lively look at how these things are happening. Um, seeing the process people move around um, an object. And then another photographer we have represented is Herbert Matter. So Herbert Matter um first actually worked in the EMS office and did a lot of capturing of uh the making of the molded plywood furniture and the design process behind it. Um but then he was recruited away by Florence Null um as she was building Null Associates and she needed um a graphic designer to give them a brand identity. Um and then Herbert Matter was paired with Harry Bertoya as he was um developing the wire furniture which started off as an open brief of hey because Bertoya was also working at the EMS office or had been working in the EMS office and was lured back east uh by the Nolles given studio space told to work whatever on whatever he wanted. Um Bertoya had a long history in metal smithing um had learned to weld at the EMS office. um but basically took all of his knowledge from making jewelry um and working on the wire bases for EMS furniture and came up with um his version of the wire furniture and Herbert Matter was tasked with capturing that process as it was happening um and doing his classic Herbert Matter thing of um sort of photo montages, collaging um but showing you both the raw material uh but just making really beautiful images that tell you a bit about how it's made but also you could hang it on your wall and then some more like motion. This isn't Herbert Matter but um the Bertoya chairs coming together which are all spot welded every single joint um and it is a really fast and furious process. So I love this image. Um, similar to the cataloges for Herman Miller, photography uh, particularly by John Nar was used by Masimo and Leila Vignelli as they were leading um, brand work for Null. And so for the Saurin collection, you're looking up um, at a cool angle to the TWWA terminal. Um, and then inside you're going to see his chairs and tables. And then for the Bertoya collection, you're seeing a closeup of the wire itself. So, um, using both the architecture of the designer to communicate maybe form or an idea of what you're going to see inside or in the case of a Bertoya, showing you literally what it's made of, but in this beautiful abstracted way. Um, and the collaboration between the Vignellis and John Nar was a long one. um while the Vignellis oversaw their null account. Um but the body of work that was created for that is pretty remarkable. Um so in a bit of a meta sense, photography is capturing work about work or making offices. Um and this image of Florence Null is a striking one. I mean, she's the only woman at the table, which I think was probably her uh experience a lot of the time. Um, but she's leading it. She's showing you whatever the null planning unit is working on next. Um, and the intent in creating this photograph, I think, was very purposeful in showing that. Um, but in if you think about images that are circulated of designers, and Florence Null in particular, was very private. though there's kind of only a handful of images that you see of her over and over. Um, and this is one that sticks with me because it speaks so much to her literal experience. Uh, but also she's running stuff and that's what it looks like because that's how it was. um versus Robert Propes who was hired as uh the head of Herman Miller's research corporation in the mid-50s when the company was looking to expand into systems. Um Robert Propes identified first as a searcher um but kind of more of an inventor. Um he got Herman Miller thinking about all sorts of systems, timber harvesting, um cattle branding. Uh he tried to redesign sanitary napkins with Kimberly Clark after the Herman Miller Research Corporation was experiencing plumbing problems in the office. Um that did not go anywhere. However, in the process of trying to solve many different problems, he looked at the furniture that Herman Miller had supplied him to work with, um probably by George Nelson, probably some Emmes chairs, and it's basically like this isn't good. I could do better. Um and so you see him seated here in his own action office. And so action office started as these freestanding pieces that responded to the different vectors of work. And so all of these individual pieces are doing a different job whether you're recording something at your dictaphone or collaborating with your friend um or looking at cool magazines in your bookshelf. Um, but this image was created for a catalog and the way it's lit, it's a time lapse. I mean, this is the future and at in 1964, this was very futuristic. Um, and I love that that image is trying to convey that. Um this is an Ezra Stler image of uh Connecticut life general offices um that were designed by Florence Null in the null planning unit. So depicting work um but also really celebrating the architecture of the space, Florence Null's total design um and kind of giving you that sense of um what was work like at mid-century. Um, I think at this point, you know, for the planning unit, this was also a calling card. You could go out and show images of these work, um, to show what you were capable of. Uh, but it was also showing other people the potential of the office, how it could function. Um, and I think Stler's approach, um, really cemented that. And similarly for Herman Miller, this is again more action office. Um, but you know, thinking about how the photographer even got this shot, you're kind of up above the office landscape, it's showing you that um, action office was not meant to be cubicles. Uh, it was actually meant to be more of a honeycomb shape, open um, but kind of prescribing obviously to clients or inspiring them how they could use these products in their own spaces. Um, I guess today you would say, you know, this is an aspirational office. Imagine uh having a green modular couch and some really cool Alexander Gerard textiles on your flipper doors. I don't think um our photography today for products is that much different. Um but it really gives you a sense of the place and the time and actually a more true design intent. Um so our collaborations with photographers are ongoing and so um the next couple of images are by a New York photographer named Nick Calcott uh who's a frequent collaborator but these are images that he took of the AON line in um Holland, Michigan. So these are bases ready for assembly. You get the repetition. You've seen a lot of that so far. And then you're also getting it's so fun um to make an Aeron chair almost every 30 seconds and the sort of uh that speed is communicated in the image itself. Um and is yet another kind of moment in time where you're seeing the people who actually make the stuff. Um, a more recent collaboration um is with a photographer named Balaz Gardy who captured different Miller Nol manufacturing spaces um across the world. Went to East Greenville, Pennsylvania to again capture the Barcelona chair being made as well as other um manufacturing facilities. Um and then also came right back to our main site in Zealand, Michigan. Um this is a picture of the spine as we call it. So um these buildings were connected by this architectural move um through a master plan project that was done by a Quincy Jones um in the 70s. And this is a space in our manufacturing facilities that separates people traffic from material moving. Um it's quite long. It's like proto get your steps in. So like if you want to go take a walk after lunch, this is a beautiful space. And what you're not seeing are the manufacturing facilities that are visible off the spine. So uh panels, some upholstery, um they look like Bert Bertinsky photos when you look out. Um but it's an architectural feature that allows you to take in the making that is happening around you. um in addition to just being an amazing um architectural experience and makes a really cool photograph. Um so that is the end of my portion and now I get to welcome Chris Payne to the stage. [applause] Which mic should I use? My mic. How you guys doing? Is that Is this on? Can you guys hear me? >> I don't think there's a company, a manufacturing company that I know of that has such an incredible wealth of uh of imagery and also intention behind that imagery. Um, so one thing as an industrial photographer that I do is I'm always looking for, you know, looking at any place I go photograph, uh, I'm looking for photographs, uh, um, historical photographs. Most of them are just more documentation. They're not done with an eye to to beauty. And a lot of places I visit, they're not making beautiful things, right, that are that are that are useful, um, that are just inherently beautiful. And so it's wonderful to see these. A lot of these I've I've seen for the first time, but there's certain the sort of themes um that I notice over and over and over again and they're both an inspiration to me and they also haunt me. Um, I don't really need to get into the any of the history, but the reason why I photographed Herman Miller is because we were preparing this exhibition and I knew I wanted to get some furniture making, you know, and a lot of furniture making used to take place in the south. That's [clears throat] pretty much gone. And u Susan and I were interested in scale. you know, there's a lot of boutique stuff going on, a lot of artistal things being made in this country, but as you alluded to, like they were interested in making things that were beautiful, but also that happened at scale that is for everyone. And so Susan and the Kur and I were were, you know, Herman Miller was always sort of on our mind. Um, but it also it checked the box of beauty, but also scale, you know, and this stuff is still relevant. might be expensive um and it might be collectible, but it's still relevant as a as a mass product. And so that was what I found exciting. Um [clears throat] so when I went out there, it was for this exhibit to kind of check the the furniture box. And I also [clears throat] like going to states that maybe I haven't photographed as much or certain regions that were known, you know, for a particular kind of industry. And like I mentioned, the South is one of them, but also Michigan. And I remember we were we were thinking like, what, you know, should we do Herman Miller uh or Steelcase or there's there's one other one. Um, but if you've looked at any old furniture, like especially metal furniture. Um, a lot of it was made in Michigan, office furniture. And I'm one of those people that whenever I'm on a shoot or shooting photographing something, I'm always looking around to see where stuff is made because you never know if that factory or that company is still in business. And that's just another little, you know, rabbit hole that I can go down. [clears throat] But a lot of these things were made in in in Michigan. Um, so that was another yet another added bonus of going there. So we went there. I went to um let this thing going. Um, so I went there to photograph, you know, some iconic products. Now, the stuff that that you all saw previously, um, I love that stuff and like I said, it inspires me, but it haunts me because the things that I'm looking to photograph don't exist anymore. And one of the things that and you you find it occasionally, but the the the big change now in American factories and there's a lot of stuff going on, a lot of great stuff going on. But the thing that that I realized what keeps keeps bringing me back to these places is this sense of community. It's like from the top down, you know, where you have like the boss trying stuff out, um where they're hiring people, where there's this sense of energy, momentum. And I think that over the years like certain companies kind of like assume that mantle, you know, certain you you feel like a company they're they're they're pushing forward. So it does exist, but just the whole community just because it doesn't exist the way it did because there's just simply not as much manufacturing now. And as much as I love going into factories, I'm always looking for that sense of like energy and the things that you see in these older pictures where people used to dress up, you know, to go to work. I mean, the the images that we saw, yes, some of those are staged somewhat, but that's how people actually went to work. You know, I still see it in South America and Europe where where they have uniforms and in Asia where people go to work and they and there's kind of this wonderful, you know, they all look like like they belong there, you know, and like they they care about what they what they do. Uh, so that's something I'm always looking for. Um, and a lot of these factories that you're seeing in these these images, they were sort of new, right? I uh most of the places I go to um they're not new, right? And they're interesting. The processes are very very interesting. The products are beautiful, but the spaces themselves are not photogenic in the way that we want them to be, in the way that I want them to be. A lot of images that have been shown, you know, we're using natural light, available light. And I think anything with the patina of like 50 or 60 years is is just looks photogenic and interesting. But when I go to places, they just don't look, you know, I have this vision in my head and it's and it never measures up to what I want. And so I have to, as an artist, I have to turn it into something that it's not. Um, so you have, you know, you have like the space that that you have to deal with as a photographer and you have the the people and the outfits also something that I struggle with. And, you know, when I look at these old images, I just I just kind of want to cry because the machines, the processes that were used to make these pieces of furniture and really anything back in the day, those machines were as beautiful as the products themselves. the processes were much more hands-on. The tools were much more more beautiful. You could kind of see things and they were happening at a scale and oftentimes I think in some of the Herman Miller and old factories everything was happening under one roof. And now and and not that this is different than the way it used to be, but now when I go to a factory, a lot of what I'm seeing is usually just assembly. So you're seeing something that kind of already looks like it is the finished product and you're just seeing sort of people put it together. And what I've always been interested in is is that moment when something is in a state of creation but not yet recognizable but not yet finished. And so we see it in a new way. When I can't get that um it's always interested to see things being tested. So they still have this this is a the testing facility that Herman Miller has. And so when we were kind of planning out the shoot, it's like what am I going to photograph? I can't photograph everything. I don't have time to do that. So we have to pick a few sort of iconic products and time it with production. Um and then maybe also, you know, show the testing. And so a lot of times, as much research as I do, I never know what I'm going to find when I show up. And so this just I thought this was cool that they had a whole facility just to sort of test these seats in a really mundane kind of like stupid way just repetitive like they've just got to test them. Um, but this >> can I interrupt and ask >> was there always this level of testing or did the testing really ramp up with office systems and task seating and ergonomics and >> um so the images that I showed from the catalog I credit the EMS office for actually starting what we now call the test lab. It started as the Herman Miller Technical Center. And so while the EMSes were designers who were interested in creating the technology to make their products, they also were obsessed with quality. And so pretty much from the start insisted on like we got to make sure this stuff is going to work. So much so that in the 1946 Bulma show, they had a chair tumbler with an EMS um LCW, a molded plywood chair like tumbling in it to show you like look, you can throw it around. So that the image or the performance or the theater of testing started then and they brought that sensibility and that obsession with quality to Herman Miller. And frankly, you know, this is this happens across our industry. Um, but I'll claim that we started it and everybody copied us. Um, and now that function has grown to a whole department within the company and all this cool 8020 that you're seeing where we're building our own machines uh to see how many butts you can fit in a chair. >> So, yeah, this is it's pretty cool. I will say however you mentioned 8020 and you beat me to it. Um I see it's it's a modular framing system and they can you see it it's ubiquitous in factories and when I talk about sort of downward aesthetic mobility that's the main culprit because whereas before you might have had a machine that was built specifically to do one thing and it might have been cast with beautiful organic shape and stuff you just never see that now it's purely functional. So in a in a picture like this, you know, I know it's interesting. I know I want to photograph it, but the 8020 is driving me crazy. What also what I also run into and and what you know, you see these these pictures before that were very colorful and lively and they might have been spontaneous, but maybe not because a lot of times when you walk into a factory floor, they're not making um which way do I point it? There's another one. They're not making what you want that day, right? So maybe that that chair isn't being made or they wrapped it up that week. They finished it yesterday. I can't tell you how many times I show up and they say, "Oh, you should have been here last week. We we were running this thing pink. We were running it all week and now no, we can't we can't do it now." So, as much research as uh as we did for this show, did I just did I go over this one? I wanted to go. There it is. Yeah, there it is. There it is. Um, you know, you never know what you're going to find the day you you get there, even though you've planned it. And so, this is what I actually found. We scouted this. That's the test center. Um, it's cool, but what's lacking in it? Color, right? Because they sell a lot of, you know, black, gray. That's the kind of the world we live in. And so, I remember I went around with with Janelle, who uh is the marketing woman there. Um, and we were scouring, you know, the factory for for colored chairs that we could put in that they could test. Um, so it's that kind of like you want it to be real, but at the same time, my job is to make it beautiful. Beautiful so that um, you want to look at it and beautiful so that you look at it long enough that you begin to say, "Huh, so that's how they do it." So there's that that 8020 that they've they've not only is the framing system, but it's also, you know, the plungers. Um, so it's just it's sort of everywhere. So I have to kind of like, you know, block that out and and uh hope, you know, hope that color and form and lighting uh will will make up for it, make it exciting. But uh so I I use a lot of uh artificial light to sort of darken the background. Um, I could go in there and shoot it with just available light, but that's not really what that's not my intention. I'm trying to create a sense of uh theatrical atmosphere. I'm trying to take down the background, which is often not very photogenic. And to me, it's distracting. And I kind of want I kind of view uh the pictures I make as like as like paintings, you know, where everything is intentional, and there is a story in that picture um with many different layers and things are there for a reason. Uh I work for the same agency uh that Ezra Stler founded and it's funny to see him his images and he and I I would obsess over the same things and there's a picture there that that was it's it's the one I think um I used in another another talk with Alexander Lang but it's like the classic one of the you know it's in the office and it's got the walls and but there were decisions that he made and I I I could go down that hole but there were decisions he made that I knew it was a matter of moving his camera an inch or It made all the difference. And so that's kind of how I view my work. >> Let's go down that hole for a minute, Chris. >> That hole. >> You and I, you and I went down that that rabbit hole a [laughter] lot. >> I know, but now we're doing it in front of an audience. >> All right. Well, >> so >> there's something like the elephant in the room here is nostalgia. And I would love it if you would talk a little bit about how you balance your profound admiration for these photographers of the past with the desire to make something that's uniquely your own and something that's new and like what it means now 50 60 years on to photograph the innovations of the past. It's like innovation versus a legacy of innovation. Um, both in manufacturing and in photography. Um, that's a lot of questions. >> Sorry, [laughter] it's a question. >> Yeah. So, I don't I don't mean to to to uh romanticize about the past, but it's it's my intention to sort of honor what's happening now and to create my own my own language for what's happening now. And uh and I'm influenced I will say I'm influenced a lot by some of the photographers of the 40s who uh worked for the farm security administration who went out and photographed the war effort factories and they did it on color transparency on 4x5 sheets of film color transparency and they use strobe lights. What this does is it renders what you're you're seeing as if it's the present day. So there's something about seeing a black and white image that makes it feel old. But when you see it in color, it just it it that that distance is shrinks. Um, and it's also very, you know, shooting like this is very it's it's it's a technical challenge that I relish trying to make something which is not inherently photogenic. Beautiful. It's interesting, right? But it's not necessarily photogenic now in the way that it was when the factory was new and fresh and there was you know it was things these things hadn't been seen. So I'm trying to create sort of a a language which is refers to you know it's it's reverential. It refers to everything that you've seen here. I'm aware of all of this, but I'm just trying to kind of express things in a in a new way that creates a more uh still another another kind of timeless image that refers to the past, but also shows what is happening now and shows it in the best possible light. And so, you know, if I'm not honoring these people and what they're doing, then I'm not doing my job. And it's it's my intention, you know, and I will say to to make them look like heroes. you know, I've never worked in a factory and it is hard work. So, if I don't do my job of honoring them, then I've I've failed, you know, as as as an artist. Um, but this image, I love this image because this was the one that I wanted more than anything. We talk about they mentioned the fiberglass chairs and I I might I might swap it out for for one of those colored fiberglass chairs, but I love this because we all know the the lounge chair, right? And so much of what I what I find is, you know, either something that you don't recognize, either I'm photographing something that's really modern and high-tech and you don't know what you're looking at, or it's finished, and then we kind of already know what it's looking at. And the wonderful thing I love about this image, and this is the the view uh for which I went out to Michigan to get is the moment when that plywood is being put into the press and it is about to be shaped, right? and it'll come out sort of in its finished shape. It still has to be sanded and trimmed and all that, but this is where this is what I consider to be the aha moment. It's timeless, right? This is the way they did it 60 years ago. They're doing it the same way. And for an image like this, I'm hitting sort of I'm getting everything I want all in one shot. And I remember when I was setting this up, you'll notice that that press is not yet closed. It's sort of like just about to hit that wood. And I have versions of this picture when it's closed, when it's open, when that wood is more flat, but here it just starts to to bend down. And you kind of understand, you know, that it's layers of wood, but you also know what it is about to become. So that required, you know, some planning, but it's still realistic. And so as heroic and as theatrical the as these images are as I want them to be, I still need them to be real. And so I remember we we scouted it. Uh Janelle and I scouted it and I said, "Great. They're actually running these today, this week. We scouted it the day before and they picked out like a different guy, right?" Which is often the case. They'll have someone else they want me to shoot. I said, "No, no, no, no. I saw this guy with those tattoos. And anytime I see tattoos, that's my that's my, you know, man or woman. People have a lot of tattoos now. Um, and I think a lot of times I look for small people, not because I myself have am of a a smaller stature, but because if I get a small person in a picture, it makes the work they're doing or the machine that they're operating look more monumental. But this guy seemed to just fit it perfectly. And uh we're really happy with this. But let me just show you sort of another thing that I'm up against. Not only, you know, lack of color or just clutter, bad lighting. Here are some other views that I was able to make of this. So, it was I think I spent I spent the better part of a day. I was so happy that that everything had aligned to get this picture and I knew that we could use it for the exhibit and then it would really check a lot of boxes in in one picture. Uh but here you see him taking it out and then he puts it into this, you know, purpose-built uh cart, you know, that's made just to that shape and size, which is wonderful to see. Anytime I see something that is made to do a specific job, you know, that's not like 8020 that can be manipulated to create anything, but something that is specific not only to the thing being made, but also to that factory, that place. So when you think about it at um uh Davidson uh platform, right, this is the only factory in the world, right, that is making this chair. So I love it when the photographs had have an added layer of meaning where they're very specific where they're saying this can only happen here. It's happening now. It might have been happening for the past 50 or 60 years, but this is happening now in this single place. It's not ubiquitous. It's right here. >> So, Chris, you've spent a lot of your career seeking out uh forgotten spaces and things that people never get to see, but in this case, you're going sort of following in the footsteps of some great heroes of yours. Does it impact the way you approach the project? >> AB: Absolutely. And I'll I'll get to that in in a second. Yeah. But a lot a lot of no but a lot of times I I I like I said I see these historical images um you know even though if I don't know them but everything that Ezra Stler did I you know you kind of record it um when I encounter something similar it's it's great and then I can kind of refer to that but it is a burden too and I you know it's stressful it's like you gota the the bar is is set high and yet as much as you try to think about it and plan it and worry about it. It doesn't matter until you're actually there because what you're finding that day is always different than even the scouting shots that they send you. It's always different. So, case in point, when I went to David's supply forms that day, just to give you an idea of like the scheduling, you know, because they are a a subcontractor to Herman Miller. So, they're part of this, you know, Herman Miller umbrella, but they're their own company. So, they make other furniture for other companies. So, on any given day, they can swap out that press with these other dyes. And so, on any given day, I could show up and not get what I'm looking for. So, you know, you never know. And you're you're you're praying that what you want to photograph is actually happening that day. This is a this is another um thing that I photographed that day after that the uh the lounge chair. This is another Herman Miller, you know, beautiful. And it really kind of hits all the right notes where you see the person making the thing, you see the press, you see the chair, the finished product, but you understand how it's made. And I don't even think this is on my list, but you know, when I go there, I kind of know what I want, but a lot of times I don't know what I'm photographing. And so the burden of everything that came before me doesn't really matter because the only thing I have to work with is what is actually there. And once you have something those boundaries, you know, to work against the size of the machine, the person who's operating it, what they're making, then it's like, you know, solving a problem. And if it's a really beautiful thing that's happening, it's uh it makes it a lot easier because then it just becomes a matter of of finding the right composition and lighting it. And at that point, I'm not really burdened or, you know, hindered by all the stuff that came before me and I can create something that is, you know, specific to that place, but also something that is I can consider my own. So, we've touched on how important people are to these pictures, and something that people have responded very, very positively to in the exhibition upstairs is the inclusion of the workers' names on the labels. And I'm wondering, Amy, to what extent that information has been retained in the archive? Unfortunately, not a ton. And so that is sometimes we have, you know, it's a company town, so we've had retirees come in and identify people in photos, which is fun and meaningful. Uh, but it is sort of that missing piece and that story, and you kind of have to piece together, especially with these historic images. Um, who is this? Um, who are they? Oh, their grandpa worked here, too. Um, so I also appreciate upstairs. Um, yes. Like just don't make someone's name like John's at uh Davidson. >> Yeah. Yeah. We were very like nowadays I have to get model releases, right? And it it wasn't apparent to us before we did the show how much including people's names how important that would be. But when I look at the show now and I even look at I'm looking at this thing right here, right? So the previous picture was of the guy taking the chair out and that's that's the press. When we were considering the show and you have everything up and you know your conversations are starting to happen with the different pictures, you realize how much people matter in these pictures, you know, and there's a lot of things that are automated these days, right? That don't need people that are just and the picture can just be like a really cool shot of a machine or something. But a lot of times you don't know what you're looking at without that person. It lacks scale. It lacks humanity. It lacks a personality. And so the person gives it a creates the story and allows the viewer to kind of insert themselves into that picture. And I look at this one here and it was to me this is like a really great, you know, it's a beautiful picture but it lacks the kind of like personality that that one has, right? Um but it's something when I'm there I have to do both. I have to take you know the vertical shot, the horizontal shot. You have to cover your bases not knowing ultimately how those images might be used. And the person really places you in time in this case when we have processes that have been happening the same way for decades and decades to have um a person who's clearly of our time. >> Yes. >> Grounds you in our moment >> with the clothing and you know the tattoos and all that. Um you know what's funny is that in one of the pictures you had there was a there was a guy doing some sanding and behind it there was a sign that said you know safety wear your goggles. Right. [laughter] And I I can't tell you how many times, you know, I go there, a lot of people, they don't, you know, they're they're working. They don't they they work in a way that is comfortable to them. Um, and I was just doing this this big project for the MTA and, you know, I'm meeting these these people and and they're working in a way that's comfortable. And yet I I'm thinking, wait a minute, you know, depending on the audience and the fact that it's a state agency, you know, there's no way we're going to be able to show these pictures without all the safety gear. So on that level, you know, it yes, you got to check those boxes and protect yourself so that you can show the work publicly, but you're also showing it in a way that's not, you know, it's a little bit forced and I it drives me crazy. You know, no one works in a safety vest, right? Unless they're unless they're working on a on a on the side of a road or something, but generally, you know, they don't they don't do it. But there's so much the policies now with these companies, they're so strict and that's why people don't get injured that much, which is a good thing. But from a photography standpoint, it can be can be kind of frustrating. Um, this is just a a detail that just shows how the the plywood's made. And I always when I work, I try to go kind of big to small. So, as I'm working on the the big maybe the overview shot, you know, the press, the person, the setting, the environmental portrait, I'm thinking about as I get familiar with the process and the person and the materials, I begin to understand it better. And then by the end of the day, I can focus on things that are much smaller. Fiberglass chairs, which I didn't get to shoot. I did get to shoot I did get to photograph um as a consolation prize. We did a uh you know we we staged this and I think this took like all day because a lot of what I I'm trying to show beauty and I'm trying to show these factories uh you know not as they are but sort of to me in this as as what they should look like you know the the the utopian factory this this ideal that I have in my head something that that you'd want to hang on your wall or that that would be in a museum that when blown up very large you want to fall into. But I remember they just didn't have a whole lot of these chairs on hand. And uh Janelle and I spent the better part of a day, you know, kind of staging them just perfectly and getting the colors right. You know, which color goes here? And you realize that on a lot of these pictures, yes, they look informal and relaxed, but they're anything but. I mean, if they're hiring a photographer to do something, yes, sometimes it's it's a little bit, you know, shoot from the hip, but a lot of times there's considerable thought to what is happening, considerable thought to make it look natural. Um, and if you don't really notice it, uh, like good lighting, then then you're doing a good job. But once again, the ubiquitous 8020, whereas maybe in the old days in the 50s, they would have had custom welded racks that were fitted made especially for these chairs. I just want to say I love 8020 [laughter] as aluminum timber uh maybe first prototype with George Nelson's comprehensive storage system. So alumin aluminum extrusions are cool. >> I I agree. I agree. I just I see it so much. The reason why I have a thing against it is because a lot of things used to be made on assembly lines. You could see what was being made, right? You could touch it. Uh and there were people there. Nowadays, a lot of what is made, small stuff, happens within these enclosed kind of conveyor systems, plexiglass, which are framed by 8020. And for me, it's usually an obstacle to getting the picture that I want to make because the technicians don't want to disassemble this stuff. They don't want to take the plywood, you know, the plexiglass off. But anyway, that's just it's a challenge I face and and at the end of the day, I'm just grateful for the access. Um, I want to finish up with a couple of uh few pictures here. So, this is actually we it was cool. We actually saw some of the older things. Um, and they still make the uh the Barcelona chair pretty much the same way in East Greenville. And I think the reason why we didn't include this in the show is that it was just a little bit too artisal, you know, a little bit too like one of one. Whereas the the other chairs, you know, they're made in in the big presses and, you know, they can make thousands of them. whereas this I was meeting the guy who makes the chair, you know, um, and it just seemed a little bit too, you know, one-on-one. When I was at the at the null factory in East Greenfield, I got, this always trips me up, um, are these historic photos or paintings, drawings on the wall that remind me of like what it used to be. And I guess we could look at pictures now, snapshots of a factory, paintings, drawings, my photos, whatever in 50 years and say, 'Oh, those were the good old days, right? But I'm always comparing what I see to what has happened before then. And invariably, there is just this sort of more scale or more things are happening under one roof or there's more hands-on um uh assembly, you know, whereas now things might be taken over by machines. And so I see things like this and this is sort of what I'm always, you know, always looking for is not just the craftsmanship, but the sense of scale and, you know, purpose-built machines that were made to do one thing that are beautiful in and of themselves. I think this is like the foam factory that Right. It's just >> Isn't he screen? >> Yeah. Yeah, >> I haven't seen them before. I'm dying. These are amazing. >> Oh, it's >> I want to cry. >> Yeah, it was it was it was you know, you see that and I'm like, "Oh, do they have that here?" And then usually it's like, "No, we do that somewhere else now." And and I would I love to find a factory where you can follow something from start to finish. I I found it at like at Steinway, for instance, you can see a like there's raw wood and it comes out as a finished piano. And it is actually really cool to see them boxing it because they put a big cardboard they slide a big cardboard box over the piano and you know that's most things get shipped in a in a box. That's how they do it. Uh but stuff like this that I love where you know I could in one picture like this you see the things in the foreground right those might be going into being they're ready to be upholstered but you see the scale of that and you see the bins and the piles of it and then you see some machine back there some kind of a press and then you get the person right so something like this would be if I saw that I I would freak out because it's it's just checking all the boxes but usually I have to sort of be satisfied with one thing and light it in in a way that gives it a sense of mystery and awe and wonder and that takes out a lot of the background which is not sadly as interesting. But occasionally, you know, as much as I love finding things of the past, things that are made in a futuristic way are actually very cool, right? And a lot of furniture that that Milanol makes is it looks futuristic and it's made in a really cool futuristic way in a way that I don't even understand. Um, and I admit that I know just enough. I know to ask the right questions when I'm on a factory floor to make it seem like I know what I'm talking about. Um, that elicits a kind of like, you know, response that hopefully is, oh yeah, we can do that. What do you need? You can stay here all day. You know, that that kind of thing. Um, but you think about it, right? And when you ask those kind of questions, when you ask someone what they do, I mean, how many times in their life has someone come in and showed an interest in what they do, right? Probably not much. And so sometimes, yes, it's like turning on a faucet that you can't turn off. But, you know, it's really it's an honor for me to photograph these people. And u it's really wonderful when they're excited about their jobs and when they when you watch them working and they just sort of exude the sense of craftsmanship and honor and pride. Um, that's wonderful. But, you know, and it is also wonderful too with this last image to sort of show something that's new and and modern and futuristic where we don't have to really know how it's how the chair is made. You know, that's not sort of the purpose of the photograph. Yes, that information is in there. But what really is important with all these pictures is to sort of convey a sense of of wonder and awe and sort of a desire, you know, to own some of this furniture. Um, and with these to see it in a new way that, you know, makes you passionate about construction and design um, and assembly given that everything around us is made in a factory. Thank you so much Chris. Let's uh [applause] >> we are going to take some questions from the audience. Please uh wait for the microphone from Alexa if you have a question. >> Thank you. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of your work. Um two quick questions which are related. What are your thoughts on like still image versus like video for capturing like these processes like the EMS made lots of videos and what do you make of like this YouTube genre that's like pop up where a lot of people do like long hourong videos just like documenting usually in like Japan or like India and I think like Pakistan like these processes like what's different about it and like why are we so interested in watching this now? >> Come with me while I make an EMS lounge chair. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I um I I have to decide between like still images and video. And still images are so hard to make because it's like, you know, they're they're they're like paint for me. It's like a painting. You know, I have this idea of what I want and I have to construct that. Um and I just don't have I don't have time to make video. I don't really know how to make video. And I think other people can do it a whole lot better. Um, and I think it's enough of a challenge for me to try to get the story of that whole thing into one image, you know, how can I walk away with one picture and tell that whole story, you know, the hero shot. Um, I would love to do video someday, but I think that but that's something that I would, you know, invites to me a collaboration with someone else. Um, it's just too much to be able to to do that. And honestly, you know, after I've made some of these still images, that kind of creative spark for me is gone. And it's very hard to go back to a place and extract beauty because I'm just not inspired in this in the same way. I mean, I I have dreams that I wish I was a cinematographer, but you know, I chose a different path and I just feel like you've got to you've got to make a decision and commit to it. um those videos you I watch those same kind of videos all the time and and you're seeing processes that don't like they just don't exist in this country anymore. And so one of the things I' I've also been thinking about is going over there and and you know making pictures in other parts of the world because I could keep doing this made in America thing. I'll be doing it for the rest of my life. But there's it's a bigger you know story about you know just how things are made. I mean everything like I said everything we we use is is made by someone or something. And uh some of those older processes are just are so photogenic, but I don't know if they would make good pictures or if video is just the way they're they're meant to be seen. Thank you. I also huge huge fan of the exhibition and the work. um when you kept talking about the 8020 and the kind of like standardization of the way the thing is made for things that are standardized and made themselves in mass quantities. I kept thinking about that that like you have the people who are one of one. You have a machine that might have been one of one or now is easy to make a bunch of maybe by a different machine and then on and on or uh then finally you have these things that are kind of stamped out to you know every 30 seconds like we were talking about before. But some of the exhibition is also like jet airline engines right which might be massish manufactured but totally different scale physically and also in how many are made. I'm just curious as you've gone through this and gone to these factories and these places, number one, down to the person one-on-one who's making the specialty chair themselves welding it to a large scale thing that they only make a one a year or a couple and then these other things where they're making every 30 seconds. Do you have any reflections on that in terms of like how you see it or feel about it? How the people working on it feel about it? What the kind of output means to you versus the the making of the thing itself? >> Right. So there's things that are like made at scale like candy, you know, food, things like that that are just made in the millions. And the exhibition touches on that. Susan and I, we we debated a lot about that, about how to like, you know, navigate that. And what I do like about the the the chair photo that's in the show is that it it it straddles that line for me. It's that sweet spot where you're looking at a mass-produced product. Something that has been made for many, many years, but that's has a real value and function and beauty. It's not just some piece of crap that's, you know, and it'll be around and it's also kind of easily knowable in how it's made. Um, so that that really nailed that perfectly, you know, the balance of artal with with real uh manufacturing. But when we were doing this the show, Yeah. We were like, well, how do we talk about scale? And to me, scale is either a lot of something or something that's really big. So, like a jet engine, you know, or a plane, yes, it's not like a car assembly line that is constantly moving, but it is still they're making it at scale in the sense that it is big. It's a lot of many different parts. It's very engineered. It's not art, it's artisal, but it's not, you know, it's very, very, very precise. And it has to be totally u rep replicable replicable, you know, because if they're not, those planes won't come together. That jet engine has to function like perfectly. Uh but that's a great point. Jet engines, they're like sculpture, you know, and that checks that box for me, too. It's a machine that's mass-produced. Maybe not in huge quantities, but enough that it's at scale and they've been doing it, you know, for many, many years. So you're you're I'm tapping into that tradition. Um I generally find that people who tend to work on things like jet engines, the higher up, you know, the food chain you go, the more specialized it is, the more proud of the work. You know, these people are pretty psyched about what they do. They're they know what they do is very refined. Um and they've got to be very good at it. And when you go into some of these factories, the people you photograph, the people I encounter seem to sort of embody that, right? Whereas I'll go to like when we went to this the hat factory that's in the show. That's really grueling work, you know, where they go to like it's hot. I mean, it is insanely hot. You should have seen Susan at the end of the day, right? [laughter] She was wiped out. Uh I was too, but I knew what I was getting into. Um, you might I I'll go there and I'll want to photograph someone in mind. I want to redo a shot. I'll go there and I find out that person left, you know, a week earlier, but that they were only there for two weeks. If you go to like a jet engine factory, chances are that person, you know, probably was a mechanic in the Air Force, you know, or has some some background in the military and they've transitioned and this is like what they do, right? Um, am I starting to answer your question? >> You also said it kind of puts you in a different position. Like I remember you talking about the containership that for smaller things you do a certain amount of >> creating the image that you have in your head. Whereas of something of that scale, you don't really have that capability to make any little >> Yeah, that is that is an excellent point. Um, yes, a jet engine. I have to show up on the day that did they're doing, you know, there's a huge there's a big picture of the jet engine that's hanging upstairs. I went to that test facility to photograph that engine, but when I get there, where are those engines? They might be on a test stand or they're over here. There's always a disconnect. And so, you know, I'm always lucky to find something kind of generally where I want it and to get them to place it. So I do have that kind of control with lighting, with staging, with the people up to a point, you know, once you start getting into the size of planes and ships. I'm more of like a spectator doing creative documentation. You know, I set my camera up, but I can't really light it because it's too big. And I have to hope for the best. I know what I'm after, but I don't have any control of my environment. It's especially true with things uh in aerospace, anything NASA related because you actually can't get near the spacecraft. Everyone who works on those floors, they're either in bunny suits, they're not wearing any jewelry in case something falls in. You can't touch anything you can. And especially with military stuff, I shot a an Air Force bomber once. was the most grueling shoot ever because they they had to move the plane at night when the Chinese satellites wouldn't see it. And then we had to shoot it in a in a room and I couldn't get close to it. Uh people had to move my lights. I had to stand at a certain height certain from a certain distance. Can't zoom in. It was just, you know, it's no fun. So, you know, you have to you feel like the urge to you're excited to be there to see something that is going to go into space or that's top secret, but at the same time, it's like, well, what impact am I really having as an artist? You know, how can I make this my own? And a lot of times, you can't. You just have to be there at the right time and the right place and get the right angle and photograph it as best you can. Uh, and and and hope that you can make something beautiful. But you don't have the same kind of control as you have with a a small jet engine or a you know furniture or a pencil. >> We have time for one more question. I'm very impressed by all of your work and I'm I'm wondering I'm sure you've been taking photos for a while now and I'd love to hear a little bit more about the source of your inspiration for the work that you do and how you've been able to keep it alive um throughout it and what like keeps the fire burning for you as you as you continue to grow. there's always something out there that I haven't photographed. Um, but you know, I was trained as an architect and I got out of architecture school and I felt like I didn't know how to do anything. Um, and uh, I I I just but I felt like I I wanted to, you know, have something that was my own. And photography was a way where I could be architectural but, you know, have an artistic imprint. I mean, that's kind of a glossing over the whole trajectory. But I also realized I wasn't I wasn't rich. I wasn't maybe that great of a designer and I didn't have a lot of connections. So that's what you need. Working for some really good architects, I realized that you kind of need two of those three things and I didn't have have those. And I realized photography was just an outlet that I loved and it was a way for me to understand the physical world, the built environment and to still be architectural, right? But I also realized over the years that as an architectural photographer, because I also shoot buildings, right, for architects, it's very hard these days to stand out as an architectural photographer. So when Ezra Stler was doing his work, there were only a handful of photographers working at that level. You know, you had to know how to use a view camera. That takes years. You don't just show up. You don't just go to B&H and buy a tilt shift lens. You know, it was really, really hard work. And so, um, I realized that, you know, I've also realized over the years is that it's just very competitive. And so, doing this kind of work, not only does it satisfy a kind of creative a curiosity, an intellectual curiosity, it satisfies uh, you know, that creative need to create something that's that I can call my own. And it's also, you know, carving out a lane for myself that there aren't a whole lot of people who do this or who are interested in it. You know, it takes a lot of work, not only to make the pictures, but to get access to persevere. Um, some of the places in in the show took me five years to get into the pencil factory. Uh, you know, it takes years and it's playing the long game, you know. Um, and that's the fun of it, too. You know, there's not a lot of money in it. You know, when there is money, it's good money, but I don't do it for that. If I I was would joke with Janelle. I would text Janelle and I say, "If you can get me access to shoot, you know, the fiberglass chairs, I will get on a plane tomorrow and be there." Like, I would I would just the thought of being able to photograph something that no one else has really photographed, like that's a that's an honor. I mean, the work that I get commissioned to do now, it is I'm honored that someone would choose me to to represent, you know, their work or their project. Um, so that's that's what keeps me going is that is it it's part, you know, you got to make a living, you got to carve out a lane, but it's also this the curiosity and and fear. I mean, you know, I approach each job as it's my first job. I feel like I'm 25 that if I fail, I'll never get hired again. You know, you never want to get too comfortable. But, um, it's a combination of of all those things. And, uh, um, you know, when you get bored of something, you move on. But I'm still I still find myself interested in in these these things. >> Right. Thank you, Chris, so much for this conversation [applause] and thank you Amy as well.