IATA–UPU–ICAO Webinar on Airmail Safety, Global De Minimis Trends and Radiopharmaceuticals

Who's the most person? Yeah, you have to. Yes. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening everyone. Welcome to the Ayata UPO IO webinar on airmail safety global dimminimist trend and radio pharmaceuticals. Um, I want to double check that you can hear me and uh that you can see me. >> I can. >> Yes. Yes, we can. >> Thank you very much to >> All right. >> Okay. Uh, this joint IATA upu IO webinar is the first of two webinars planned for 2026 on enhancing safety and security. The first topic will be a 15-minute presentation by the International Atomic Energy Agency on the facilitation of the safe and secure transport of class 7 radioactive materials to mitigate to mitigate the issue of denial and delay of shipments of radio pharmaceuticals vital for cancer diagnosis and treatment. The second and key topic of the webinar will focus on lithium batteries in air male and their challenges addressing the potential danger of lithium batteries. This section will include a 10-minute presentation by the moderator Miss Lin Maguan technical officer followed by a 30 minute discussion with experts from the postal and aviation industries as well as well as postal and civil aviation authorities. The third topic of the webinar will be another 15-minute presentation by the universal postal union up and Laost France on the dimminimist requirements and impact on air transport the global dimminimist trend and the effective implementation by DPOS and air carriers. Before we we start, I'd like to go through a few housekeeping rules. This webinar will be recorded with your implicit consent by taking part in it. And I'm going to kindly ask all speakers to turn and keep your cameras on and to turn your microphones on when needed. To all other participants, please turn your cameras and microphones off. Given the limited time and the number of participants, only our expert speakers will be able to speak. Questions will be allowed only in the chat box. I will ask participants to type your questions in the chat and depending on time, our experts will answer your questions right away or in subsequent hours or days after the webinar by email. Also, in the interest of time, I'm going to skip the introduction of our distinguished experts, but you can find their bios in the banner that was sent to you and in the IO website. Finally, at the end of the webinar, I'm going to put in the chat box a link and a QR code to a survey that will help us improve future webinars. So without further delay, let's get started. I'm going to hand over the floor to Mr. Urick Shella, chair of the international steering committee on denial of shipments at the international atomic energy agency, IAEA. Mr. Shella, if you're ready, the floor is yours. >> Thank you. Just to clarify, are you sharing the slides directly or shall I share from my computer? Either is fine. >> As you wish, Mr. >> Okay, I will do it from here and then if this will allow me just a second. I don't seem to be able to share on this occasion, so I'm going to have to ask you to do that. [clears throat] Okay. Very good. Thank you. Can you see my screen? >> I can, but if we can have presentation mode, it will be easier to read. >> Okay. >> Thank you. That's perfect. Uh yes. So thank you uh for the opportunity to speak and thank you to the well I see over 150 people on this webinar who have found the time to join us. Uh first of all a clarification I'm the consultant here at the transport safety unit of uh the IAEA uh tasked principally on the issue of denials and delays of shipment and the actions that we are taking to address that. Um I will be mentioning it in our ship and working group but I'm not the chair so that is uh somebody else but I am the consultant focused on this if the next slide please. Yeah. So I will be going through the applications of reductive material. Uh what is their importance? Uh what is this issue of den of shipment? What is the what do we mean by this problem and what are we doing to address this through facilitation? What the the US uh working group is and one of its key outputs which is a white paper and the mitigating measures that are coming from that. So next slide. So I'll start with a um rhetorical question if you will. So if you were to ask people what is radioactive material? What is it used for? Well in my experience and and others I have corroborated this. If you ask somebody the number one response you will get is nuclear power, nuclear energy and something to do with nuclear fuel cycle. Uh very rarely do you get somebody who will come up with a different answer. for example medicine. So next slide. So in fact nuclear power is very [snorts] important but it is a minor component of the many many applications and as we don't have time to go through all these applications in the call um and our focus as noted is radio pharmaceuticals because they are a key component of air transport. I'll just note that nuclear power for example um covers 5% approximately of the volume of transport of of radioactive materials. Um radio pharmaceuticals account for 80% 80%. And in air transport it is even more uh weighted towards radio pharmaceuticals. So next slide please. So what is the need for transport? Well, we have lots of places where material will come from. If you click through, we have mines, producers, um source manufacturers. Uh if you can click again. So, of course, they all need transport. If you click again, then because without transport, you can't get the material through to where it is needed. It's so obvious, but often often we find that transport is taken for granted and it's something that just happens. You produce something, it's highly um highly uh controlled and uh researched and developed and it is used and it has very u many different applications and in high technology in medicine and it is just assumed that it will just get there. But transport is a very uh well it's the essential element and as we will find out there are some difficulties that have to be addressed. So if we move forward first of all to reassure those who are not aware of it already um many of you will know this already um the uh if you just click through to uh through to the end of this slide with Helio um SSR6 are the transport regulations of the developed by the agency here the IAEA they are the basis for the national regulatory frameworks and these are then incorporated ated into the UN model regulations. If you keep clicking through but um then these are as is obvious known as the uh UN orange book and they in turn uh while these two first documents are not uh mandatory um let's just keep clicking through but here you um so we have the screen filled and these are not mandatory but they are the basis for modal regulations. So obviously we have the technical instructions um from IKO for air transport. We have the IMDG code from the IMO for maritime transport and various other agreements uh including a uh those for the UPU. If you just keep clicking through and we will see them all here. Okay. So just to note that those of the IKO, IMO and UNCCE and others, they are the ones that are legal requirements. And this is just to remind everybody of what the framework is and that it is highly [snorts] um controlled, regulated, organized and harmonized. However, as we keep if we keep going to the next slide, [snorts] uh despite this, we have difficulties in the transport. So this is we call denal of shipment. If we move forward, so what is denial of shipment? Well, if you click again, we get a first type which is policy. So it could be a port or an airport that simply has a policy not to accept these materials and there are root causes be beneath that. Um but more often than not um consigners or consignees who are trying to obtain transport when inquiring through a carrier they might they may find a blanket policy from that carrier but that is typically not the reason the root cause for that denial. There will be other reasons such as complexity or port uh airport denials uh that are uh the cause of denials by carriers. So if we click through another type of denial is something that will occur during the journey. So you have a shipment that has been accepted and it could be a small package, it could be an entire container or something even larger uh going by doesn't matter which mode. It could be air, could be land, we'll sea. And at some point during the journey, there will be a denial, an unexpected denial. It could be due to a political change. It could be due to an approval being revoked. It could be due to uh some event that is happening during the transport. And maybe the risk profile um the assessment during that transport means that the approval is no longer accepted or a port that was part of a planned route has changed its mind, shall we say, and is no longer accepting that ship and it has to be rerooed. Now, this can lead to um extensive delays while a new route is being planned. And speaking of delays, if we click through again, sometimes there is not an outright denial, but there is an event during the transport that leads to extra time. And for a long lived radioactive material, for example, a uh say cobalt 60 or anything containing uranium, thorium or natural materials or then these are an inconvenience but they are not critical. provided for radio pharmaceutical calls with short half- livives. A delay of even of hours or even or days can mean that the material is as good as denied and no longer usable. If we click through, so facilitation is the positive effort that is being made to address the negative aspect of deno shipment. And just to note here the efforts that have already been um carried out. On the left we have efforts already taken 20 years ago by the IMO through its facilitation uh committee. On the right we have efforts undertaken by IO um addressing um annex 9 and its um through its facilitation division. And if we click through from the from the IAA, we obviously have been collaborating with other UN organizations for decades. But in the last few years, particularly regarding this area, we have very much increased and enhanced this collaboration. uh first of all through of course having the participation of the other UN organizations in the denal ship and working group we have developed a joint statement with IKO that amongst other things is focusing on the sustainable transport of red materials especially radioarmaceuticals there's a module being developed um together with the IMO and last September at the AO assembly a working paper was presented from the IIA noting in particular the importance of radio pharmaceuticals. If we move forward, there was a conference organized by the IIA, international conference on transport at the end of March. And just to note here a couple of points um from that week-long conference that the central goal included a mention of enhancing the facilitation of safe and secure transport. And next slide. that there was a panel session amongst multiple panel sessions. There was one focused on radio pharmaceuticals and having sustainable supply chains for those noting the time critical nature how delays in radio for radio pharmaceuticals is as good as equaling a denial or a mistreatment. And here it's important to note that the consequence of what do we mean by mistreatment? This was explained at length in that session and it is recorded and can be found online. If you search for that conference and the panel session, you will find a recording of that session. And basically that when we say mistreatment, it is not not just one patient who is affected. Um there is a complex series of group of patients affected and delays that then knock on to other groups of patients and they they are all part of a carefully planned controlled series of treatments that have to function in a series for them to be effective and to have their life saving of potential fulfilled. So what can be done? It was noted that it these materials need to be prioritized. Coordination needs to continue to be strengthened and that awareness using simple non-technical messaging needs to be enhanced. If we move forward, so I mentioned the Dell ship and working group. If we move forward, this was established by the IIA for a 4-year period. that's ending this year. Um I'm not going to go into detail because in in the interest of time but just to say that during those four years a lot of work in analyzing this not just from scratch but looking at the um the work that had been done over the previous two decades. So it's not um something that we are starting from from nothing with and amongst various um work that has been conducted by this group most importantly is a white paper and facilitation which I will describe that was approved at the end of April meeting and they were going to have a last meeting in December where we will look amongst other things at how will this issue be addressed. test and monitored from 2027 onwards. So, next slide. Just to note here some of the work that's been done and we haven't got time to explain this but to note that analyses have been performed surveys and data gathering for the experience of member states of industry and of carriers. So if we move forward and some of the outputs are a communication strategy you which is intended to be used as a reference for anybody who wishes to but especially national focal points a handbook on these [snorts] national focal points and I haven't mentioned them before. Also I'll just note that these are uh nominated um people in each country to address the null shipment in their country to coordinate amongst each other between countries and to um essentially be there to help facilitate and identify potential solutions to any immediate or systemic um difficulties in transport. And a list can be found online amongst other things. Here at this website which where there is a link you will find the list for those national focal points of which there are now 74 uh countries have nominated these and most important the white paper that I mentioned including the conclusions recommendations of the working group um looking back at everything that has been done over more than 20 years. Next slide. And then so moving forward on the white paper, next slide. Yeah. So first drafted in December, [snorts] hundreds of comments um were taken in and multiple reviews done over the following months uh just to show the level of interest and the level of input from the various um stakeholders and people in the working group. As I said, this was approved at the end of April and just this week we are now um getting this out. It is being disseminated by the secretariat here to its member states and from there we hope for that message to spread further. So again what does the white paper do? It defines nail shipment as mentioned earlier root causes and consequences. Recognizes previous efforts which I uh mentioned briefly and importantly recommends a series of mitigation measures eight of these and general conclusions. So next slide the root causes I mentioned the um perception issue. If you ask people what they think of, they think of nuclear and from there there's a short step between people thinking of anything radioactive to do with Chernobyl and uh uh this is tends to be a negative perception but people are not aware of the many many positive applications of these materials and it's a huge awareness gap. Um there is an there is a series of uh conferences I think could somebody's got their microphone on if they could switch their microphone off. >> Mute yourself. >> Okay, I will continue. So the awareness gap in the perception of these materials and the complexity that applies and these are root causes that then affect um how well radioactive material is accepted in transport. And consequences of these are then the uh on the material but not just the and the patient healthcare healthcare but also the sustainability in terms of resource use. Um we are we have the UN sustainable development goals and wanting to improve the the um the economic development and uh minimizing resource usage. And of course if you are having longer transport routes delays and um having to replan routes this all works against those principles. So if we move forward as I see we are um running out of time despite best efforts. So here we have the mitigation measures. Um they are aimed at various different stakeholders and I encourage all the people here on the call to inquire further about the contents of the white paper and what they can do and in their role in this important supply chain. Um first of all it recognized the joint statement that has been that is in development between uh various member states as a member state initiative. It notes the existing network of national focal point the importance of sustaining that and again you have the link to find a list of those notes the value and importance of uh recording deviations in regulations from the international regulatory framework. IO at the link given already uh lists these u variations as they are called. Um the IIA refers to them as deviations and member states are encouraged to identify and publish these. We're looking to increase cooperation between international organizations in addition to what is already being done and to improve outreach and awareness. So this is a communication issue and this is all stakeholders need to work on this. the IIA uh to continue enhancing what it already does which is to improve capacity building among member states. So next slide and then here the final set of mitigation measures one in particular was specifically focused on medical radioactive material which includes radio pharmaceuticals. one member states to look at submitting proposals for change to the UN classification of these materials. Secondly, and necessarily in coordination operators, which is to mean consigners, carriers, consignees to look to submit proposals for change to IATA, special handling codes um that would work in conjunction with any changes to the UN classification um being proposed. Member states importantly [snorts] need to maintain availability of ports and airports for the transport of redact material whether it's import export transitment or transit and finally to work on the communication among stakeholders in their countries. Next slide. We're coming to the end. Conclusions. This transport as I explained is essential. If you have if you can't have sustainable transport, you can't have the uses the beneficial uses of these materials. Short-lived medical and radioarmaceuticals are of absolutely most critical and of an immediate and obvious humanitarian benefit. >> [snorts] >> member states should recognize these and work through nominating national focal points if they don't have one already. And that again looking at this through uh the lens going back 20 years the responsibility is increasingly with the states. Although all stakeholders here need to work together in coordination to address this and that it has been recognized multiple times this issue can never be entirely eliminated. So it's important to be realistic. However through this coordination coordinated action we can have a significant reduction of this issue. So next slide. So the as I said the IIA is disseminating this white paper. The general conference in September will be notified of this and the member states in particular on this webinar. We encourage you to follow this up, make inquiries, inform [snorts] yourself and we will be uh I expect sharing this afterwards so that you then can follow up the links and read further and there is work to be done on not just we're not just publishing a white paper there is work to be done following on from that. So final slide just to note upcoming events I mentioned John conference in September. We are looking to have a side event. So the IIA will be supporting a side event led by uh Canada supported by France and Switzerland on specifically this white paper. In December there will be the final meeting of the working group looking to how we move forward from next year onwards. And in the second quarter of next year, we will have another in a series of inter regional training workshops for these national focal points. And the next one will be in Abuja in Nigeria. So thank you and again if you can email or submit uh questions in the chat. Um that is it from me and thank you for your attention. >> Thank you. Thank you Mr. A uh that was a very interesting presentation on the uh radio pharmaceuticals. So uh as as you as you said uh any questions in the chat will be answered uh by you in subsequent uh hours or days. So moving on to the second topic and main topic of the webinar lithium batteries and their challenges. I am going to hand the floor over to Miss Lin Mcwigan. Uh Miss Mcwigan is a technical officer in the air navigation bureau at AO. So uh Miss McGwigan the floor is yours. >> Thank you Vhilio and good morning, good afternoon, good evening everybody. I am happy to be with you today. I'm just going to share a a little presentation um on just to give you an overview of the challenges we're facing in air transport with lithium batteries in in air mail. Uh so before I get into it, I know there's many people here today. The list keeps growing and some of you may not know exactly what IO, the International Civil Aviation Organization does. Um, IO is a United Nations Specialized Agency that was created in 1944 before the end of of World War II upon the signing of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, which we call in short the Chicago Convention. Um the the vision of IKEO is a safe, secure and sustainable international civil aviation organization that connects the world for the benefit of all nations and people and it has several strategic objectives that are highlighted on this slide. Uh for um aviation to be safe and secure, green, seamless, accessible, reliable mobility, uh provide economic prosperity and social well-being. uh that the convention, treaties, laws, and regulations address all challenges and that no country is left behind. Oh, I'm having trouble moving my there. The convention is a relatively stable document, but it's supported by 19 annexes to the convention that are amended more frequently. NX18 is the one most related to the safe transport of dangerous goods. It's you can see on the picture that it's a very thin document, but it's supported by the thick document on the right. And there's a an important standard in annex 18 that says each contracting state shall take the necessary measures to achieve compliance with the detailed provisions contained in the technical instructions. And these the annex and the technical instructions are applicable to all international operations of civil aircraft. Um the scope of the technical instructions is uh really the the safe transport of of cargo by air. So most of the book is devoted to shipping items uh as cargo by air. Um, dangerous goods carried by passengers and crew are forbidden except for certain dangerous goods that are listed in the in the technical instructions. It's about eight pages of a table of different types of dangerous goods that are that are permitted. And then of course mail um mail dangerous goods are also not permitted in in mail. And in fact that's the same for all modes of transport. they're it's not permitted in any kinds of mail except for um a few items. Um and this is this aligns with the UPU convention. So patient specimens category B infectious substances and dry ice if they need to be refrigerated radioactive material in accepted packages. These prior to 213 2013 were the only substances that were permitted in the mail and they were subject to stringent they are still stringent packing requirements and in in very small quantities that pose a neglig really no risk to to aviation. Um and there's uh a recommendation for appropriate national authorities to ensure provisions are complied with. And there is in annex 18 there was a an annex a standard that said each contracting state should established procedures with a view to controlling the introduction of dangerous goods into air transport through its postal services and international procedures for controlling the introduction of dangerous goods into air transport through the postal services have been established by the universal postal union. Um despite these requirements and restrictions, dangerous goods that are not permitted in the mail are often discovered. Uh that includes aerosols, perfume, cigarette lighters, and yes, lithium batteries. Um, in about around 2011, the UPU convention was amended to include equipment containing no more than four lithium cells or two lithium batteries in the international to permit them in the international international post. Um, UPU requested IO to harmonize our mail provisions in the 201324 edition of the technical instructions to align with the UPU convention. Uh, a proposal was brought to a panel of experts that supports IKO in maintaining the technical instructions and annex 16. Now, lithium batteries are a a a big concern to aviation because they pose unique hazards. They they provide both um an ignition source and fuel for a fire. They're capable of thermal runway, which is an escalation of heat that results in fire, smoke, smoke, and uh toxic and explosive gases. um it's become something a a big challenge in aviation. So when the proposal was presented to the expert group at Ikeo, their answer was no. But um there was a lot of dialogue and and finally the dangerous goods panel um thought that maybe is there a way to allow lithium batteries containing equipment in air whale mail in a way that will help manage the risk. And one of the problems over the years has always been a need for stronger coordination between civil aviation authorities and designated postal operators. So the panel recommended that yes maybe allow the introduction of lithium batteries contained in equipment in the mail but only under uh specific conditions. So one, the procedures of designated postal operators for controlling the introduction of dangerous goods in the mail would be subject to review and approval by the CIA of the state where the mail is accepted. And then there would need to be a specific approval from the CAA before the DPO could introduce the acceptance of lithium batteries contained in equipment in the mail and the ones that are are accepted. So this was eventually agreed and it was incorporated in the 2013 2014 edition of the technical instructions. But these are are very are very small batteries. Well small batteries with a W hour u limit of under 100 watts per battery or 20 watts for a cell and no more than four cells or two batteries in any single package. And then the annex um to the convention was also amended uh including the need for the procedures of DPOS for controlling the introduction of dangerous goods and mail to be approved by the CIA of the state where the mail is accepted and also uh requirements for the DPO's training programs to be approved by the CIA guidance for approving the procedures and the training program were included in a supplement to the technical instructions. So, where are we now? Well, there's been approximately 40 designated postal operators that have approval to accept lithium batteries. Um, but despite that, dangerous goods that are not permitted in the mail, including lithium batteries, are still being discovered today. So today we're trying to to discuss what measures are being taken to address this ongoing risk and is there anything more that needs to be done. So I'm happy to have with us four gentlemen on a panel that will be discussing these challenges. We have Mr. Eric Gilllet, a dangerous goods inspector at Qatar Civil Aviation Authority. Mr. Keith Rank, hazardous materials aviation safety analyst within FAA's cargo safety and international affairs division of the United States. Pascal Le, cargo customer solutions manager at Cafe Pacific, and Gerald Gails, hazmat aviation mail security specialist at the United States Postal Inspection Service. So I'll I'll stop sharing my presentation and invite the panel to um to join me by presenting turning on their cameras and I will start my first question will be posed to um Mr. Eric Glette. Are you there Eric? >> I'm here. >> Okay. Is does the screen look okay? Verilio. Okay. I I don't see Eric's Eric on the screen. Okay. So, Eric, um, just if you could elaborate on how non-compliant lithium battery shipments introduce risk into the air transport system and what makes improperly prepared shipments particularly dangerous. >> Sure, Lynn. So you mentioned the hazards that lithium batteries present and they're fundamentally different from the older chemistries of batteries um because they um they pack a lot more energy in a much smaller form factor and when that energy is released it uh it's released quite aggressively. Um particularly untested, faulty, damaged or abused um can produce intense heat uh flammable gases and a self- sustaining fire. That's of particular concern in aviation because aircraft fire protection systems are designed to fight conventional fires on board an aircraft and they're not capable of fully containing lithium battery fires. Once initiated, these events can escalate very rapidly. Um just a brief mention of the air bus incident last year. Um for those familiar that started a fire started from a power bank that was carried in the passenger cabin. Um but it demonstrate how serious a fire can be when involving a relatively small lithium battery. The global demand now for lowcost battery power products continues to grow. So the number of lithium batteries moving through the air transport system and the number of thermal runaway instance has also increased. The postal system itself particularly uh working with e-commerce uh introduces additional vulnerabilities. A significant proportion of shipments originate from individuals or smallcale consigners many of whom have limited awareness of dangerous good requirements and this increases the likelihood of prohibited or non-compliant battery shipments entering the mailream. There are limitations also in detection. Pre-eparture screening processes are designed to identify security threats, not dangerous goods. So, lithium batteries are often not intercepted. Mail also often transported in mail bags. So, you have um the potential for risk aggregation um where multiple prohibited batteries can be colllocated in a single bag. And so if one of them fails that can then propagate the fire to other lithium batteries in the same bag or in close proximity which uh increases the severity of the event. So taken together these factors mean that the risk within male from prohibited standalone batteries such as power banks or from batteries containing equipment that are mispacked, damaged or poor quality is disproportionately higher. Thank Thank you, Eric. So, it's clear this is a big concern at IO and um Eric speaking as a state regulator, it's taking up a a lot of um oversight uh energy to to to um m to help mitigate this. And of course, our airline operators are the ones that are responsible for what they put on their aircraft. So, it's a big concern for them. So, with that, I'd like to ask Pascal from an airline perspective, what are your main challenges and how does non-compliance affect day-to-day oper operations for airlines? >> Thank you, Lynn. Um, the biggest problem we face right now is a hidden danger triggered by the e-commerce boom. Um and there is a rising number of lithium batteries entering uh global postal channels and for an airline a seal mailback uh definitely is like a black box. Uh it easily hides undeclared or counterfeit batteries shipped by consumers uh who have no idea dangerous goods regulations even exist. So um but the risk is catastrophic. Just 140 battery can trigger an unstoppable fire and uh in the air there's no room for error and that is why stopping this nightmare is our top priority and uh this brings me to our biggest operational headache at Cafe Cargo. Uh we call it systemic strandings. Uh while 100% uh origin screening is mandatory, uh rescreening at our Hong Kong transit hub only happens under specific conditions like for example uh shipments from high-risk origins or bags uh with detached tax. Um here's the the catch. Uh when we do rescreen and our x-ray flags are suspected lithium battery, uh we hit a massive regulatory uh brick wall. uh airlines have zero authority to open the seal postal bags uh to isolate the threat. So basically we are legally stuck um to make matter worse card messaging data is often empty uh without uh item level visibility. We cannot legally or safely put that mail on our flight. Uh as a result male of course gets stranded on our floor. uh warehouse floors, backlogs pile up and we miss the the time commitments. Um so why is this so hard to resolve? Uh when a scanner flex a suspected item, we cannot pinpoint which exact package inside that seal back uh is the problem. Uh because the origin postal operator shares no data to us. Uh the entire supply chain greens to a halt. Um to resolve it uh we have to contact the origin operator, get permission and invoice uh involve our local postal operator just to open the back. Uh this always triggers weeks of painful uh back and forth uh and on and then of course storage costs skyrocket, deadlines are missed and al and also customer complaints flood in. So um how do we move forward? Uh at our Hong Kong hub, we deployed AI powered X-ray technology across all our screening lines since 2024. And the AI is in incredibly smart. Uh for example, if shipping data claims a box contains t-shirt, but computer vision sees the unmistakable shape and density of a lithium battery, the AI instantly flex that mismatch. Uh furthermore, our thermal uh imaging software tracks uh temperature anomalous to catch early uh stage thermal runaway uh before a fire even starts. So this works brilliantly for loose cargo. Uh but for male we hit the same wall. Uh we need um of course AI can flag a threat but uh the seal mailback remains a legal black box to us. So uh for conclusion uh without data sharing and the right to inspect uh AI cannot solve this alone of course and we need regulatory harmony to give us uh the teeth to act uh connecting advanced technology uh with global uh collaboration is uh I think it's the only way to secure our skies and and keep uh commerce moving. Uh thank you. >> Thanks Pascal. Um, yeah, I was I was going to ask Eric again if he if you think the measures introduced by IO are helping. Clearly, the problem isn't solved based on what Pascal is telling us, but do you think the measures introduced by IO are are at least helping? >> Yeah, I I certainly do when they're properly applied. Um, one thing to bear in mind is that a simple ban might be be seen to be the uh the simple answer, but the the intent of having the controls um subject to review and approval by the authority, the aviation authority was that just banning something doesn't necessarily mean it's not going to be there. the the ubiquity of um lithium batteries and those uh containing equipment in virtually every consumer electronic device we use means they're going to be uh likely to be entering mail streams whether they're allowed or not. So um I think it's important to bear in mind that just a ban isn't really the the solution. Um, I mean, it really is the most important thing is for the aviation authorities to reach out to the postal authorities and to to start the conversation. And there's some techniques such as um doing sample screenings to identify the extent to which dangerous goods might be present. Um, one state I've worked in found that uh around 15% of mail items contained dangerous goods of one kind or another, mostly uh prohibited items of the nature that you discussed, Lynn. So, some research to find out what uh what's there and then considering each of the different entry points into the mail system to try and determine what controls would be appropriate. So, for example, if a state has access to uh if a if a member of the public can access a mailbox and does there's no human interaction, they're completely anonymous. That would almost entirely be relying on awareness. So, information that's communicated uh by the postal authority. Whereas by comparison if uh M is accepted over a counter um that gives an opportunity if the uh the DPO and the authority feel it's appropriate to apply questions particularly if somebody volunteers that they're offering uh batteries and equipment and and they have the approval to do that and those simple questions um can be designed to be readily understood by the the staff and by the customer and do the primary checks uh to be satisfied about the battery type, quantity, whether it's packed in a manner that will allow safe transport. So the short answer is we couldn't do nothing. These the dangerous goods are going to be entering male streams uh whether they're permitted or not. So the the decision was to come up with a system to facilitate what could be transported safely and we just have to carry on working together to improve that. >> Okay, good. Encouraging. Thank you. Um, I think I' I've been asking the questions on the aviation side of the house. So, now I'm going to ask Gerald, in in your role as a hazmat aviation mail security specialist, can you give some insight on the kinds of measures designated postal operators are taking to ensure compliance with the requirements? >> Thank you, Lynn. Good morning and good afternoon, everyone. Um we recognize this that states that have yet to obtain their special approval may lack adequate policies and procedures to prohibit these items in the mailstream. Now specific to the US post acknowledging the unique dynamic of our customer base which is essentially the entire public we recognize the importance of these measures. So therefore we implemented the following initi initiatives as examples. One customer awareness enhancements. So we've developed dedicated posters. We have public service announcements, videos online as well as uh tutorials online again to enhance awareness of our customers when they are shipping uh in in our uh networks. Internally uh recognizing the reality that our retail clerks are the frontline gatekeepers guiding our customers, we strengthen measures to educate and provide useful tools to help clerk assess mailability of dangerous goods items including lithium batteries. Uh, one significant tool that we developed is a retail acceptance counter guide. It's a user-friendly tool that helps to simplify the requirements for clerks to assess and provide clear guidance to our customers. On the technical side of things, we have also implemented measures to program our systems to ensure mailable hazmat items that are restricted to surface trans transportation will not receive air mail service. Uh we have also implemented what we call hazmat indicators to mail postage labels that will ensure visibility of these hazmat shipments in our network to effectively manage the volume and prevent such items from being tendered for international air transport. On the incident tracking end, we developed and implemented a hazmat incident tracking system to moni to monitor incidents and trends in the network, allowing us to address issues, find root causes, and implement corrective actions. We have a dedicated hazmat dangerous goods team within the inspection service that monitors the system and applicable enforcement measures are taken. Last but not least, considering the exponential growth of devices operated by lithium batteries, per our commitment to air safety, measures were implemented to restrict used, defective, or damaged equipment containing lithium batteries in the surface network and prohibit it from from being tendered to air, including international male uh networks. And so, these are some of the best practices, Linda, we hope to share in the ECLB mentorship program. back to you. >> Okay. Thank you. Um well, it it sounds like there's a lot of good things being done um on your but from from the uh the the the male side of the house and also from the aviation side of the house based on what Eric said, we still have problems based on what Pascal said. And I guess my concern is um we may have good systems in place in some states but not all. So I'm wondering I'm going to ask Keith, can you give us some examples of how how states can support designated postal operators and developing effective procedures for accepting lithium batteries contained in equipment in air mail and obtaining the necessary approval from the civil aviation authorities? Absolutely. Thanks for the question, man. Um, I'm in complete agreement with uh Eric uh who indicated that it really is uh one of the primary things we can do is to ensure that the CAS's are properly enforcing and reviewing uh the DPO's policies and procedures. Um and and as indicated I think you know not directly but all the panel members have indicated and what I think in my experience is of paramount importance is that DPOS's and CAS establish and maintain effective regular communication. I think that is probably the the premier thing that that can be done um at this point. uh you know this communication allows CAA's visibility into postal operations and the opportunity to identify risks that are unique to the carriage of DG and air mail. Um it also gives that us the potential to identify gaps in in their policies, training and procedures. Uh promotes incident data sharing. Uh in our case, it's allowed for coordinated investigations. um and it drives greater awareness of IKO regulations that some DPOS might not might not have uh with their CAA. Secondary, [clears throat] I think it is I think we have a a large audience today and if I can uh and treat you right now the fact that I think it's essential that CAS and DPOS that have the capacity participate in the efforts of their international regulatory bodies uh whether it's working groups or uh you know the panel meetings themselves uh these four the 4C3 um whether it's I I had a UPU contact committee or the IKO UPU contact committee um to actually uh give their time and expertise to help these efforts. Uh right now specific to this conversation, uh the IKOPU contact committee established what what's called the equipment containing lithium batteries expert team. uh the team was stood up to to deal specifically with the challenges that lithium batteries pose in mail and facilitate DPOS's gaining their special approval. Uh to that end in uh 2023 2024 the expert team was responsible for the design and distribution of three targeted surveys that were distri distributed to DPO both DPOS and CAAS to determine why so few states have sought and received that the special approval as you' indicated the numbers hovering around 40 uh out of 193 um that number obviously as as both Eric and uh and Gerald indicated the program has merits Um I think that it would do a lot to to uh get these DPOS's uh their special approval. Um so uh so right now the ECLB team after reviewing the survey results EC uh the ECLB uh expert team uh really kind of started a uh pushing toward a mentorship initiative. Uh so we looked at the survey results and they revealed there it's a mixed bag. Um but there are some critical areas of concern. I'm going to take a quick look at some numbers because I didn't have them memorized. So on the good front uh 60% of the respondent DPOS that have not received their special approval indicated that they that's something that they would like to gain. So, it's good that there's so many DPOs that are interested. Uh, on the the concerning front, 40% indicated that they don't have a dedicated they don't have a PC within their CAA. So, you know, of the DPOS that have not been certified, 40% don't even have a contact within their CAA, which is something we really could address. Uh 20% of the the respondents indicated that they were unsure of the benefits that this program could have and 30% indicated that they were unaware uh that there was even a requirement which is extremely concerning that that that many of the respondents didn't even know that there was IO requirement for that uh special approval. Um so with those numbers and in addition 40% indicated they couldn't justify the cost or the manpower uh needed to actually get their special approval. The ECLB uh expert team developed a mentorship initiative. Uh the initiative was devised to provide uh assistance to DPOs requesting help in obtaining their special approval by uh the UPU pairing them with a CA DPO from a state that's already gone through the special approval process. That would allow them a first level review of the DPO's training and standard operating procedures uh to identify and address any of those gaps uh any found gaps. Uh the pairings also would allow for the sharing of best practices and stakeholder engagement materials as a lot of the DPOS that have yet to to gain that special approval are ones that were indicated that have extremely small uh numbers employed by their designated postal operators. So manpower is definitely an issue. So this is a capacity building effort which should aid in the expediting of the special approval process and increase the likelihood for successful completion. Okay, thank you. That's a lot of uh very interesting, sometimes um positive and sometimes a lot more work is is needed kind of information. So, we're we're we're getting close to the end of our time here. So, I'd like to close off by giving um both from the DPO perspective and the CA perspective. Um, I'll I'll ask Gerald first if do you think there's what more can be done to help with this with with the the non-compliance issue from a from a DPO perspective and then I'll ask the same. I don't know if you want to add anything Keith uh if you do or if anybody else on the panel wants to add anything from a CIA perspective. So I'll start with Gerald. >> Thank you Lyn. Um, I believe from the DPO perspective, I think additional push via top- down approach is needed uh for DPO support and compliance uh to include to include some form of enforcement measures to address DPOS that have yet to obtain proper certification to carry equipment containing lithium batteries. Again, this is just my opinion, but to expand further and provide additional insight, I'm turning it over to our UPU partner, security program manager, Jacob Goulson. Jacob. >> Uh, thank you, Gerald, and I apologize for not having my video on. Um, internet connection right now is is a little questionable. um to to answer the question that the the the big thing and I understand some of the concerns regarding the cost associated to it. Um and the UP will continue to push this and work with our IKO partners and our civil aviation partners. Um I I I do you know part of the benefit and that's where the DPOS's and and we will work to ensure they understand this is that the benefit to ECLB certification is if if they don't get certified and carriers continue to see that then there could be unfortunate consequences to the DPLs which could negatively impact their their businesses. um to to avoid that and what I will say on on that part is uh whenever a DPO reaches out to us the first question they ask is one hey where where's the guidelines which we've now have on our our website but also hey can you get us a contact with your civil aviation authority uh that is one of the biggest challenges we have had um and a lot of the DPOs have have mentioned is is that who do we contact how do we contact Hey, can they reach out to us? Hey, can you can you put us in contact? And and Keith has been great and I has been great in trying to overcome that. Uh but that is something that um is a challenge and we always suggest DPOS's continue to reach out to these people uh because unfortunately the consequences can be detrimental to that uh the individual DPO if they are not not certified for that. >> Yeah. Yeah. It it it's uh it's a problem we have in general with contact information for national authorities for dangerous goods. It's a requirement under annex 18 that they inform of IO of who the person is, but it's hard to keep that up to date and there obviously is problems in some states with resources to to manage. So, it's something that we have to continuously work on. Um, thank you. Thank you very much. Um, and Keith, is there anything more you want to add to that from a CA perspective? >> Yeah, thank you. And I'm in agreement with with Jacob. Um, through the discussions that we've had at the uh the ECLB expert team, uh, a great opportunity uh to try to to uh familiarize myself with postal matters and things that I was unaware of coming from a CIA background. Um, it's been eye opening. Um, every time that we have a meeting, I think I learn something new about the postal system and how it operates and how it, you know, uh, overlays the air transportation system. Uh, one thing that I I I think is is key as like I said before, uh, communication is key. I I feel strongly that uh, the UPU should be present at DGP meetings. Um I think that we would b we all would benefit at the panel um from their unique postal perspective um hearing from you know any of the papers discussed being viewed from from their lens and uh being able to uh have input their input there. I think that that that is a a big thing. Um, once again, I want to ring the bell and see if uh we can garner any uh interest in uh participation in groups such as the the contact committee here um or the IATA for operators that are in attendance here, the IATA upu contact committee. Um even if you don't actively participate on on any of the established working groups, uh your input or information that comes from you can help guide these groups work. So even if you can't attend these meetings regularly or whatnot, I know the team that uh I chair which is the expert team uh the equipment containing lithium batteries expert team would definitely benefit from uh greater participation from you know a wide variety of people. We have a good core group um but it would definitely benefit from more input. Uh I think uh we really could work at looking at promoting the screening of air mail. uh more widely as indicated by a nunch a number of the panel members. It's extremely hard to tell uh what's in a box just from the marking and labeling. There are indicators, but it's not 100%, you know, and screening is definitely one of the the more effective ways of determining what's in uh air mail. So, and then uh finally, I'd look like to look at con harmonizing the reporting requirements within the TI and the universal postal convention articles. They're they're currently at odds and I think that's one of the work plan items that we're putting forward for to address on the expert team. Um, one indicates that they should uh go to the appropriate national authority and then obviously IO says that the reporting should be coming to the CIA. So there it causes some confusion. You know, I don't expect DPOS to be able to track down, you know, especially with some of the the small manpower that you're looking at to try to find the appropriate authority within the state and then to try to find a PC within that authority, I think is a daunting task for a lot of them. Uh data is key in a lot of these elements to to be able to identify analyze risk and uh identify trends. So I think uh trying to better our data reporting between the uh organizations is essential. >> Yeah, thank thank you for that. Um I think we could spend a lot more time speaking about this. There's a lot that has to be done, but our time is uh coming to an end. So I want to thank all of our panelists for sharing your perspective and your practical experience on this issue. Um it's clear that uh lithium batteries and air mail remain a shared safety concern and there is definitely a need for strong coordination a coordinated effort among civil aviation authorities, designated postal operators, uh airline operators and and a real need to in improve coordination to find ways to make sure that the two um uh the DPOS and the CAAs can reach each other. Um, better communication among authorities and all of the stakeholders. Uh, and I think continued efforts to [snorts] improve customer awareness. Uh, so so that anybody putting um mailing knows what the requirements are. Um, I think it it uh there there's still a lot to be done, but it's I think we have a lot of the right people in the mix to to move things forward. So, I hope that today's discussion has helped clarify both the risks and the practical measures that can be taken to address them. Uh, thank you again to our speakers and to everyone has who has joined us today. Um we look forward to continuing this collaboration and to strengthening safety and reducing the risk. And uh I know Keith mentioned um would we would as secretary of the DGP panel we would absolutely welcome UPU to be uh to join us as an observer on the on the panel. And if uh anybody wants to be more involved with some of the the committees Keith mentioned, they can get in touch um with us through uh um at ao. Thank you everyone. >> Thank you Miss McGwigan. Um I see that one of our experts uh Mr. Goldson wants to add a final comment. Uh Mr. Go. >> Thank you, Verhilio. Um, and and to to address Lynn's uh suggestion, so the UPU supply chain coordinator uh Yan Bonowski is actually already a representative on the dangerous goods panel. Um, so we we do appreciate the invite and he is there. Uh, regarding the communication, I did want to bring up and we we mentioned civil aviation authorities, but I I I should have also spoken about our carrier partners. Um, what I would recommend is if if if their carriers are seeing this happening when it's being screened, the mail's being screened, you're seeing lithium batteries or equipment containing lithium batteries that's not uh identified in the shipment, please reach out to the DPO, please reach out to the UPU. And also if you have a contact in that civil aviation authority that we may not or that our DPO does not, please also provide that um just as information uh so that that we can try to you know connect that communication channel. Um, and then one final thing I I did uh and I know uh the US mentioned it in the uh comments, but I did want to ask I I know I believe Eric mentioned um the 15% of mail containing dangerous goods. If you wouldn't mind, Eric, even offline, if you can send me where those statistics are, I'd be curious to see um what the information is and and how we can we can review that for the future. >> Thank you. I can uh I can certainly give you a breakdown of the what that 15% comprised but it's um I wouldn't like to identify where it came from but it's um it is bon modified data and I should emphasize that was those were that was the situation prior to the implementation of effective controls the general controls over dangerous goods. >> Thank you. Uh thank you Mr. Gosome, thank you Mr. Ket and uh thank to all our experts on this topic. Um uh maybe for the next webinar instead of uh having 90 minutes we uh we will need 24 hours. Um so moving on to the third and final topic the the minimize requirements and impact on air transport. I'm going to hand the floor over to Mr. Kristoff Para. Mr. Para uh is an expert in La Post France. So, Mr. Para, the floor is yours. >> Thank you, Reginel. Would it be possible to share my slides? >> Yes, no problem. Give me one second. Okay. >> Can you see my screen? >> Yeah, I can I can see here. Sorry. So, so good morning, good afternoon, good evening everyone. I am Kristoff Peran, the head of customs affairs at Laost Laos group which is a French postal operator and today I will present the impact uh of the end of the AU demmes regime on postal operators while also touching on the growing role of air carriers in this transformation. So these reforms represents a major turning point not only for postal operator but also for the entire logistics chain including aviation stakeholders who are critical in transporting crossber e-commerce flows and postal shipments as well. So over the next 15 minutes I will explain what is changing why the AU is introducing this reform and how it affects operations financial exposure and coordination across the supply chain. So yeah, please. Uh um so from July 2026, the European Union I don't think anything Yeah, thank you. the European Union will remove the deminist exemption, meaning that all imported goods will be subject to customs duties regardless of value. This transforms every parcel into a customs transaction and introduce a flat trade duty per e-commerce item and per line of declaration as well. So for postal operators this major operational shift but I would say that it also affects airlines who transport the vast majority of these parcels into the EU. [snorts] So, postal operators and airlines will increasingly be impacted uh through the need of the need to handle higher volumes of shipments requiring compliant data, greater expectation around preloading data transmission, but also tighter integration with customs risk analysis processes. So as a result the air transport leg is no longer just a movement phase or a transport phase but becomes a critical control point in let's say in the wall uh supply chain. Next slide please. [snorts] So now if we try to understand the AU policy objectives, this AU reforms is driven by three main objectives. First to create a level playing field between AU and non AU centers. Second to strengthen customs uh risk management in response to growing parcel volumes. and third to shift responsibility toward accountable operators within the EU. So we can assume that carriers could be directly concerned by the second objective. For example, as authorities move toward advanced risk assessment, they increasingly rely on data provided before arrival, often at the stage of air transport. This reinforces the importance of initiatives such as EAD for example or preloading information where air carrier play a key role in transmitting shipment data before goods even land in the AU. So while the reform targets input processes, it effectively extends upstream into the air cargo segment making post and airlines part of the compliance ecosystem. Next slide please. [cough and clears throat] So now if we have a look on the operational shock, this reform definitely creates a real operational shock. Each parcel not be now becomes an individual customs case significantly increasing processing requirements. This is not limited to postal facilities. Of course, carriers also face raising rising complexity as they must ensure that shipments they transport are accompanied by complete and accurate data especially accurate EAD electronic advanced data. So in practice what does it mean? This means that uh it this means more stringent data validation before uplift, increased coordination between postal operators and airlines of course and potential operational disruptions if data is missing or inconsistent. If data quality is unsufficient, parcels can be delayed even before arrival creating bottlenecks at the airport or in the sorting centers, postal operators sorting centers. So in this sense operational risk is no longer focused or concentrated at destination but distributed across the entire supply chain including the transport leg of obviously. Next slide. [clears throat] So what could be the financial and structural exposure? This reform also creates significant uh financial exposure especially for postal operator because the may need to advance entities is a case for the majority of post they need to advance duties and provide guarantees generating cash flows pressure at scale. So while airlines are not directly responsible for customs duties and it is clearly mentioned in the regulation, they could be indirectly affected by increased operational cost linked to compliance processes, potential disruptions impacting flight loading and turnaround times and growing expectation to support secure and compliant transport flows. So there is also a structural issue. [snorts] The system assumes strong controls over shipments. While both postal operators and airlines often depend on data provided upstream by marketplaces, sellers or origin postal operators. So this creates a shared challenge across the supply chain where responsibilities increase but control over inputs remains limited. [snorts] Next slide please. >> [snorts] >> So one of the major problem we have across Europe is that among what we noticed in the past few days is AU postal operators but also AU customs authorities have different interpretation and also apply different solutions to the reform. And so we have definitely diverging models across the AU. Um different AU countries are adopting different customs models which creates complexity not only for us for postal operators but also for you as carriers operating for example across multiple destination. So post and airlines have to adapt to varying data requirements to different clearance models but also to inconsistent operational procedures sometimes across air mail units or airports. So definitely we have to recognize that this reduces efficiency and makes standardization let's say more difficult at a global level. As a result, coordination between postal operators, customs authorities and carriers becomes essential to ensure smooth crossber flows despite the as I explained this fragmented environment. Let's next slide please. [clears throat] Yeah. So looking ahead, adaptation will require a fully coordinated approach across the supply chain. Deliberate duty paid models are one of the key solutions for postal operators, but their success depends heavily on accurate upstream data and reliable transport execution where air carriers play a crucial role. Sorry. Stronger collaboration is therefore essential. Postal operators, airlines and customs authorities need to align on data standards um information sharing and also the risk management practices. Airlines in particular will be instrumental in enabling early data transmission and secure transport supporting customs authorities in identifying risk before arriving. So ultimately success will rely on two key f factors high quality data and strong coordination across let's say all stakeholders all actors including of course the application sector uh next slide as a conclusion um what I can say the end of the deminist regime in the European Union is transforming not only postal operators but the entire supply chain postal supply chain and of course air carriers are becoming key partners in customs compliance as controls increasingly shifts upstream through data and risk management processes. So adapting successfully will therefore require collective response, collective effort across postal operators, airlines and of course a regulator, customs authorities etc. Thank you very much for your attention. >> Thank you Mr. >> Yes. Sorry, sorry. Uh from from the airline side, I I think it's also important to uh to point out uh what Kristoff has talked about. uh obviously from the carrier perspective, we learned a lot last year uh from from the US implementation uh but uh from from the most important pieces to to understand that that collaboration uh on a bilateral level from the post and the airlines uh is extremely important and and having that communication level so that we can share uh the vital information to set up those data flows is important. uh the carriers don't always know uh what's in the consignment based on on many of the rules for carrying mail. Uh so we have to rely as carriers on those posts to be supporting that information clearly. Uh as Kristoff um said it's it's very important to note that in the EU side uh the carriers are not responsible while in some of the other countries including the US uh the airlines are responsible and so uh there has been a ecosystem of third parties uh that have been set up to to create that that's not necessarily necessary uh in the EU uh although some country regions are are following that model. Uh but I think it's it's extremely important that uh everyone understands from from the carrier perspective, we want to keep the mail moving. Uh however, with the government and regulations that are changing, uh it's very important for us to continue to have good dialogue and and understand uh the information uh so that we can ensure that uh there are no legal issues uh that come forward. uh many of the airlines have have created uh different kinds of legal agreements as a part of the contracts uh between the posts and the airlines to ensure that this continues uh and that we can keep the mail moving. Uh and so I think that's an important aspect and and Kristoff highlights some of the uh the the really important challenges uh that we work through as as we meet these goals uh wi with the with the deadline. Thank you Kristoff. >> Thank you Jeffrey. Thank you Mr. Elder. Thank you Mr. Praa for uh that presentation. Uh we have uh five minutes left. So I put in the chat uh a link to the survey, a link and the QR code to a survey. Uh I'm asking all participants please fill out the survey um whenever you can. This will help us improve uh future webinars. Um we still have four minutes left. So uh I want to make uh good use of this time. I have a I have a question that maybe can be answered quickly by one of our experts. Could you provide insight into the anticipated impact of the new proposed lithium ion battery classification and testing criteria on air transport? So if any of our experts uh or the moderator uh want to ask that want to answer this question I think I I answered it quickly in the chat um and maybe somebody can add on to what I have to say but I think it's premature to be able to say that because the system is still being developed. I there there is a lot that is going to have to be done but we don't have it yet. I think they're nearing completion of it. Um but that's just the way lithium batteries can the hazards can be classified. The next step is going to have to be how we would modify the provisions. So I would think that there's a a good chance that there will be uh some impact but hopefully it will be better. I don't know if anybody else has anything to add to that. >> Thank you, Miss Mcwigan. [clears throat] So I want to thank uh all our distinguished experts, our moderator, all participants for taking part in this webinar. Again uh I I put in the chat a link to the survey and the QR code. So please kindly fill it out. Um as as mentioned before the recording will be shared or I don't remember if I mentioned this but uh the recording will be shared with our partners um UPU the IAA IATA which in turn will uh be able to share it with their stakeholders. The questions in the chat box will be answered by our experts in the subsequent hours or in subsequent days depending on time and um uh your your feedback is really is really important to us. Uh there are so many questions there is a lot of work to be done. Um the topics that were covered today were based on the feedback provided by you in previous webinars. So uh thank you very much for that. Um uh having said that I want to wish you uh uh a nice day, a nice evening uh wherever in the world you are. And um if there are no further comments from the moderator or the speakers, um once again, thank you very much. See you in the next webinar. Thanks. Bye everybody. >> Thank you. Bye. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> See you again. >> Thank you everyone. >> Thank you. >> Did you want us to stay on? >> Thank you. >> No, Lyn. >> No. Okay. Great job, Aurelio, Lyn, and everyone. Thank you. >> Thank you. I hope we can talk soon. [laughter] >> Sure. >> Yeah. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, everyone. >> Okay, that's a good idea. >> Bye. Yeah, I think it would be good for us to de debrief in the the coming days. >> Yep, I'm I'm good with that. Thank you. Oh, >> great. Thanks a lot. Take care. Good night. Good day. Thank you everyone. Thank you.