“I Would Criminalise What You Do” - Louise Perry & Bonnie Blue Debate

Given the little logic puzzles that we've stepped through today, on what basis can someone condemn what Bonnie does given the world that we're in? >> Well, given the world that we're in, yeah, I don't think that you can condemn Bonnie Blue if you're generally in favor of sexual liberation and the free market and just letting all this stuff rip. I don't think you can. I think you just have to accept that Bonnie has followed all this stuff through to the logical end point and is and is winning that game. Yeah. Um, if you I mean it doesn't bother doesn't worry me because I've already thought for for years and I've always said that actually sexual liberation has some really serious costs. >> Um, as does letting the free market rip and so on. So um, >> yeah, I've really enjoyed talking to you and you're a really likable person. >> Same. I like how you're, you know, you don't agree with what I do, but you're very open to listening because I've had I always say you don't have to agree. I'm It's not my job to convince you and I I'm not bothered. But I always really appreciate when someone can just listen to my side because I'm not just some blonde porn star that's got no brain cells. Like I'm not overly intelligent, but I can explain. And >> the justify is probably not the correct word because I don't need to justify, but I can explain why I do what I do and why. I believe it's acceptable and why it's it's not damaging. So it's always >> good to have people that can listen. And I'm not saying you're now going to be queuing up and I won't lend you a blue ski mask just yet, but it's nice to have an open conversation. >> I want to try and finish up by getting you guys to steelman the cases for the other side. You know what that is? Steelmanning. So, you know straw man, it's uh I take your argument and make the weakest version out of it. >> Okay. >> Steel manning is taking the other side and making the strongest version for that case. So, if you could uh think of the biggest tradeoff or or downside of your worldview being successful, um if your perspective and lifestyle was sort of more widely adopted, what would be the most negative externalities? What's the best case that is anti Bonnie Blue? And I guess Louise, you might be able to start and do what is the best case that's pro Bonnie Blue and also what are the negative externalities of if you were successful with what you wanted to have happen? >> Yeah. So if I had my way, um I would like criminalize most of what you do and you wouldn't have all this money, >> right? So obviously personal >> is in prison. >> Well, but not for money. Um so that's obviously like a personal cost for you. I guess also that um maybe it is true that for some men access to porn reduces their sexual aggression towards other women or reduces the chances of them going to um >> bisexual women in prostitution. So maybe I mean I've never really seen that case made strongly, but I think I said earlier in the conversation that if that were true that it did actually reduce sexual violence, >> I would accept it as being the worst of the options. >> Yeah. >> Sorry, the better of bad options. >> Mhm. >> I think sometimes it's hard though because people think it's either got to be A or B. >> It's not always got to be the case. Sometimes for one person something works and the other person it doesn't. or we try and say, "Okay, porn is better to cancel it." But sometimes it's not. Like everyone tries to make you fit in a box and sometimes things are one or the other. Or sometimes it might depend on what day it is. And like you don't have to pinpoint yourself to one or the other. >> What is the best case argument against Bonnie Blue and the world that she wants that you can think of? >> Um, I mean, for me, I'm already in it. I get to do what I want and no one can stop me basically. But the one of the main things I want is people that do pay for porn, do pay for sex workers or the arqin for people to be more open-minded about him, that they're not disgusting, they're not desperate, they're not here to hurt anybody, they are genuinely lovely people. So that would be the biggest thing I would love to happen. >> No. What would be the case against? >> Yeah. So Louise's position of anti- porn would criminalize, would monetize. If you were to make the argument for that, is there something where you think, okay, this is the best way that I could justify what Louise is saying? Can you see the other side? >> Yeah. Like I mean, I think a lot more restrictions should be added like it's this was done by a professional either speak to the person. There should be like a a clause beforehand. Um I think >> it's hard cuz I think a lot of porn is very heavily regulated. um and the amount of consent forms and IDs you've got to upload but as a whole just greater education um I think you do see that complete wild west porn is is bad even if the ind individuals are consenting do you think that there's a cultural harm done if we had completely let rip you know watch it at any age watch anything you want do you think that there would be a significant downside from that >> yeah I don't think it should be any age but at the same time people are watching porn a lot younger than 18 and it's they're also having sex so you know you could stop watching porn I mean you could they make so many restrictions you can only watch watch porn once you're 18 they're probably having sex those younger than that though so who's educating them on them younger years and I'm not saying porn's the best place to educate them but something needs to fill that gap >> I have got an example that brings this into sort of my area of expertise which is bro science and I'm going to talk about fake natties you That is it's not to do with boobs. It is uh guys who are in the fitness industry and have achieved a very admirable physique and claim that they haven't done it without performance-enhancing drugs but they have used performance-enhancing drugs. Fake naturals, fake natties. Um what the argument against fake natties and specifically the sort of ethical argument is these men are creating an unrealistic expectation of what can be achieved naturally which inevitably means that any guy who tries to do what they do feels inferior. They're going to fall short. The costs of trying to do what this person has done with peeds >> is unattainable. Therefore saying that you didn't use them is giving them a false sense of hope. Also, if you then come out and say that you did use drugs, there's often an accusation that this person is now encouraging the use of testosterone because they have an admirable physique in this person. They're downstream effect of using uh hormones on yourself as a guy. I wonder whether you are kind of not the fake natty because you're completely open about it, but you are the testosterone hyperresponder of the sex world, which is >> your results may vary and bonnie are the most outlier that you're going to have. Most guys, most women would not be able to sort of run the cycle that you have, as in run the testosterone performance-enhancing drug cycle and survive in the same way that you have. Most girls would not be able to live the life that you do. And I think when we're talking about like without exaggeration, a one in 3.5 billion outlier. Lots of people would ask the question, does it make women want to emulate her or warn them off of her behavior, not do it? But the issue is you are so non-representative. There is no warning those people off because there's no negative externalities that happen within this system that is you. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I tried to bring fake natties into this, but >> no, I I get it though. Like the good thing is I'm very transparent. I'm very open and >> I don't think you're transparent about how weird you are. >> Yes, I would agree. >> You did say earlier. Yeah, cuz you did say earlier I'm I'm really normal. I swear I'm really >> honestly anyone like so a lot of people that either work with me or my friends when people that know they either work with me or they know me one of the first questions they get asked is oh my god what is she like and they're like she is surprisingly >> but you're surprisingly normal this is exactly the same as me talking about Jon Jones or actually not Jon Jones that's a bad example Tom Asenol who's UFC champion I go oh he's a normal guy you know he sits down he eats dinner he plays with his kids he does the thing it's like yeah but he also beats people up that are over200 lb for a living like this guy has a very specific skill set within a very narrow domain and yeah he's normal outside of that but is also within that a world champion. So I I think >> I would encourage you to to check check your thinking for one of a better term on I am not that weird because nobody else you've already said yourself nobody else has been able to do what you can do the people that are trying to go in your path. This is the same as you having unbelievable natural strength and being able to squat. There's a guy who recently broke the deadlift record. Um, no one else on the planet has ever been able to do that. And somebody else trying to do that will snap themselves in half trying to chase it. He is a one in 3.5 billion uh human. >> Yeah. >> And I do think >> that creates a >> an odd sense of the cost that other people would pay if they were to try and do the same thing. >> For sure. because you do not deal with the situation in the same way like largely you're inhuman in the way that you are dealing with what is going on here. Is that is that >> I think I guess >> fair >> it'd be easier if I did struggle a bit and I could open up and say look it comes at this cost. It comes at me crying myself to sleep at night. It comes that my family are, you know, upset with me and I'm dealing with physical issues. But that isn't the case. Like for me it really has been an easy ride. And but I do always like to try and make it as clear as possible. This is not normal for most people. I I am a normal girl, but in terms of the way I deal with it and the way I'm able to manage it all, yeah, to a certain degree isn't normal. And I don't have any tips. >> As much as I wish I could say, look, if you do want to do this, here's some tips on how to manage it or how to be successful in it because I don't know. I just >> You were just constructed for built for this. >> I just made for it. >> Yeah. The LeBron James of porn. This episode is brought to you by Momentous. Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements. 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