Video summary
The podcast explores the neurological mechanisms behind why individuals become obsessed with partners who are emotionally unavailable or unstable, contrasting this dynamic with secure relationships. The speakers argue that the pursuit of a broken partner is driven by neurochemicals associated with risk and edginess, such as adrenaline, epinephrine, norepinephrine, and dopamine, which create a sympathetic nervous system response characterized by chaos, ambiguity, and unpredictability. In contrast, healthy relationships foster a parasympathetic state linked to oxytocin and serotonin, providing true rest rather than the fleeting highs of victory found in toxic chases. This distinction highlights how the brain often misinterprets intense emotional volatility as deep connection, confusing chemistry with intimacy and mistaking instability for passion. A central concept discussed is the "trauma bond," which functions similarly to a slot machine through variable rewards. In these relationships, an individual endures repeated negative treatment until they are on the verge of leaving, at which point the partner performs a seemingly kind act or apologizes just enough to reignite hope and drag them back in. This cycle prevents the relationship from becoming unrewarding because the intermittent positive reinforcement keeps the person hooked for years. The speakers note that this dynamic is often mistaken by those seeking "magical" love, who justify waiting indefinitely for an idealized version of romance rather than settling for a stable, enduring partnership that genuinely promotes happiness and safety. The discussion further illustrates how people frequently confuse intensity with intimacy, attributing special significance to partners who are naturally charismatic or exciting regardless of their behavior toward others. The speakers reference insights from Jessica Baum's book *Anxious* regarding individuals who possess an innate "spark" for everyone they meet, yet potential partners fail to recognize this trait is universal rather than unique to them. To clarify this point, the conversation uses a beverage analogy involving Prime Energy drinks and Diet Coke; some products are optimized solely for the first sip with intense initial flavor that fades into sickness over time, much like relationships that offer thrilling beginnings but deteriorate quickly. Conversely, healthy partners provide consistent satisfaction without becoming overwhelming or repulsive after prolonged exposure. Ultimately, the episode concludes by emphasizing the importance of recognizing these neurobiological tricks to avoid falling victim to "nightclub dynamics" where scarcity and perceived difficulty create false value in a partner. The speakers warn that low self-esteem often drives individuals toward those who are hard to get, interpreting their own lack of worth as evidence that someone else must be valuable if they desire the speaker. This mindset leads people to reject kind, transparent, and ready partners because they subconsciously believe there is pathology involved in anyone showing genuine interest without conditions. By understanding that these feelings are often manufactured by brain chemistry rather than deep connection, individuals can learn not to overvalue initial impressions or karmic significance attached to a person's charm, instead focusing on character integrity and consistent behavior over time.
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I'd love to find out the sort of
neurological underpinnings of what's
happening during the I can fix her, I
can fix him chase.
versus the
I have arrived, I'm safe, I'm secure
chase. Which I guess is kind of less
like a chase and more like a rest.
Mhm. [snorts] Reason being there's a lot
of that sort of cortisol dopamine energy
going on of this is a goal and if I can
achieve the goal, I will get a sense of
satisfaction, but it's always very
rushy. It's always kind of like like a
high and then a low and there's whiplash
and it feels a little bit sort of
chaotic and ambiguous and unpredictable
and and and uncertain and that's sure
there's there are highs, but they're
more like victories than they are true
rests and I would love to work out what
the sort of neurochemicals that are
driving that are and I would wager that
they will be stuff to do with pursuit
and and risk and edginess, right? Like
adrenaline, epinephrine, norepinephrine,
dopamine as opposed to like oxytocin,
serotonin. Like you are in a sympathetic
relationship, not a parasympathetic
relationship.
>> Yeah. Does that make sense?
>> Yes. Well, and one produces as you say
the the roller coaster and and it's not
just a feeling of achievement, it's
it's relief.
You know, like that's the
feeling so often is relief. I I'm
>> [sighs]
>> I have them. I have them. Like they when
that person who you're who you just so
want the approval of and you so want
them to want you back the way that you
want them. You want them to think about
you as much as you think about them.
When that person says something like
they send you a text and they say
I miss you so much. I just love you so
much out of nowhere.
>> [sighs and gasps]
>> You like all of a sudden you're like
it's almost like you your life was being
threatened and now it's not.
Now you feel like
>> Someone's taken the gun away from you.
>> Yeah, oh my god, I'm safe. Right now in
this moment I feel briefly briefly safe.
I I I and that release that kind of
euphoria
that results from that
extraordinarily
powerful. And that
um
you know, when when psychologists talk
about that trauma bond there is that
variable reward nature
to it.
>> What is a trauma bond? Trauma bond is
the idea that you know, someone
uh
treats you badly
again and again and again and again and
again
and at a certain point
it's so unrewarding
that we might even consider
like enough is enough.
But then right as we're starting to make
up our mind about that person they do
something sweet.
They do something seemingly kind. They
show up for us in some way. They
apologize when they've you know
lied or gaslit us or made us feel awful
about our feelings for the last 10
times, but all of a sudden
they show some promise and then we're
dragged back in.
We're sucked back in.
That's the the trauma bond and it people
stay in that for years and years and
years. That's the really scary part, but
there's a variable reward nature
to that. That's in a way the slot
machine.
Right? If you never won
chances are you wouldn't be there, but
you win just enough
that it keeps you there.
The kind of safety that
a healthier more slow release
energy relationships produce
is
a different kind of feeling and I
you know like I sometimes what when I
see there's like certain Instagram
content out there you see of people who
are like
you know
I'm just waiting that there's one I saw
the other day from someone who a guy who
was like I'm just waiting until you know
I'm not going to settle I'm not going to
do this I'm not going to do that I'm
waiting until it's magical I'm waiting
cuz love is you know I'm not going to
settle for love that isn't magical for
love that isn't this love that isn't
that and the more he spoke the more for
me it didn't feel like
the version of love that
is that tends to be enduring that tends
to be genuinely make people happy it
tend it felt to me like a kind of
justification for constantly waiting for
that that feeling and I think we get
like in some ways these arguments get
pitted against each other like it's
either you find someone that
is stable and healthy and is kind of
boring and you settle a little bit but
whatever
or you find someone who's exciting and
it's passionate and it's magical and it
makes you miserable
>> [laughter]
>> I don't think it's necessarily an either
or in those terms but I do think that in
the same way you could do drugs and eat
pizza every night and get drunk every
night and that would produce a kind of
high but you're a healthy guy who values
the feeling that being healthy gives you
there is something you get from that
that's more powerful to you
and if and in relationships until that
thing becomes more powerful,
you're always going to be chasing this
other thing. Is this
interesting link where people
confuse chaos for chemistry? Yeah. And
uh
intensity for intimacy. I think it's
just largely like a
neurobiological trick. I don't think
that there's anything really deeper
going on. I think that somebody has not
almost all of the situations through any
choice of their own, just the way that
they present has hooked a particular
like a fish line into this area of your
brain and it keeps on pushing it and
then
calm love feels boring
at first.
And that
chasing love that feels safe instead of
exciting and not assuming that this
person isn't sparky, right? That there's
no spark. I mean this is a
great insight I learned from Jessica
Baum's first book, Anxious Anxiously
Attached.
>> [snorts]
>> She's got a new one out called Safe. You
should bring her on the show. She'd be
great for you. Um
and she said uh
uh some people sit down with someone
and they feel a spark and they assume
that that's something special between
both of them, but what they don't
realize is this person is just sparky
with everyone. Huh. That's just who they
are. Yeah. And you go, that's brilliant.
And especially on a first date, we had
this with uh Prime, Logan Paul's drink,
uh for instance.
Allow me to blend two worlds you didn't
think I was going to blend today.
[laughter] The beverage industry and
like internet connection. Um
Prime optimized for first sip. And we
did a ton of taste testing on a lot of
different drinks. And there were some
drinks that have uh they your like
tolerance for them over time. Diet Coke
is a great version of this. Like you
take your first sip and it's satisfying,
but the real key to Diet Coke and and
all of the the Coke line is that you can
keep drinking it and you really never
get sick of it. Mhm. There are other
drinks that you optimize for the first
sip. So, if Logan Paul's on his podcast
and he flicks a bottle of Prime across
you, he goes, "Matthew, taste that." And
you take a sip and you're like, "Wow!
That's really You [ __ ] hell, that
there's something going on there."
But, after you get halfway through the
bottle, you're like, "Maybe a little bit
This is getting a little bit sort of
sickly." And by the time you finish it,
like, "I don't really want another one
of those." Like, they've certainly
balanced some of the flavors better than
others, but for some of them, it's like,
"Whoa!" And maybe if you're a 12, right?
Like, your
palate is slightly different to mine.
I think the same thing is true with
partners, that there are some who
optimize for the first sip up front, and
you're like, "Oh, this is so It's
thrilling. It's thrilling. I'm on a
roller coaster." You're like, "Yeah,
like, being on a roller coaster's cool
until you can't get off.
There are so many ways that we get it
wrong with that mind trick that you just
talked about. Mhm.
And and actually, it's the key to
getting over it. That's the great part.
What Understanding that it's a kind of
trick of the mind
is the key to not overvaluing that first
feeling you get.
>> Mhm. Oh, this is just Oh, hello, brain.
You're doing that thing again. You're
doing that
>> to imbuing some, you know, karmic,
existential,
transcendent value onto this person. And
and they're doing a thing
that, as you say, it
might be something that they put out
universally
that that once you realize that, it
becomes cheaper.
Yes. It no longer has the same weight.
I've met guys where I'm like
like, I meet a guy and when we go out or
something, I'm like, this guy is like,
it's so charming.
>> What a raconteur.
>> So dazzling. I'm like, and then he makes
me feel so,
you know, like,
connected, and I'm like, we're going to
be best friend. I've like, fallen into
the trap.
>> [laughter]
>> Where am I?
>> finessed by some dude on a night out.
>> Well, I've been so charmed that I've I'm
like, "We're going to I'm like go home."
And I say to all the
>> Yeah, like you can't This guy's great.
You got And like and then I realized
like how many
of the the friends I have, forget
romance, how many of the friends I have
in my life today
that I truly value
are the people that
in the first 20 minutes
>> [sighs]
>> I went home and was just like
I got to text that guy again. You know,
like whatever. How many of them were
that guy?
Usually, it's the people that over time
I really like I value who they are.
Their character, the way they show up,
their integrity.
All of that. So, the same is true in our
love lives. It's very easy. Don't We
have to be very careful of getting
bowled over by like
like a nightclub trick, essentially.
Like wouldn't Careful, careful
dismerching the world of nightclubs,
okay?
>> [laughter]
>> There's I might have I mean, you can
take the boy out of promo, but you can't
take promo out of the boy. We You know
You know that nightclubs will often just
hold a line outside regard
>> that. Never did that in my
career.
>> there's no one inside.
>> Never did that.
And then everyone sees the line outside
of the club and says, "There must be
something going on in there. Look how
many people want to get in there."
And then with most of us have been in
that place of like we got in
and we went
"Where is everybody?" There's no one's
There's no one here. There's no value.
There every There's more people in the
line outside the club than there are
inside the club.
So,
it's
we're all prone to that
to that idea. And by the way, when we
don't value ourselves
when someone else
is showing themselves to be hard to get
instant We we their value for two
reasons. One because it's natural the
natural economics of attraction is
scarcity. If you make yourself seem hard
to get your rare and if you're rare you
must be more valuable, but there's also
a personal part going on which is if you
reject me or if you make yourself hard
to get for me and I have even an inkling
that I'm not enough.
Then I start thinking you're really
valuable. It's almost like if you want
me
I'm like
I don't value me so by you valuing me
there must be something wrong with you.
Yeah, there's something going on with
you. You want me like you're you're
starting to dip in my eyes.
>> that is one of the most unfortunate
dynamics for somebody to have that I
only want somebody who doesn't want me.
Like if that's your motivation and
somebody that seems to be kind and
well-balanced and
open transparent about their wants and
committed and ready now and you go oh
that
that's there's there's something
there's something in there that doesn't
seem quite right. I can't work it out
but
it's because you have low self-esteem.
It's because you don't think very much
of yourself
and that means that if you see somebody
who shows up in a way that you are not
prepared to show up for yourself
you assume that there's a pathology
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