Huge Debate: Should Fathers Be In The Delivery Room? - Richard Reeves

Duration: 9:55 2227 transcript words EN summary

Video summary

A significant debate erupted between Scott Galloway and Derek Thompson regarding whether fathers should be present in delivery rooms, sparked when Thompson returned from paternity leave to appear on Galloway's podcast. Galloway expressed strong opposition to men attending births, describing the practice as disgusting and suggesting that fathers would be better off outside smoking cigarettes or cigars before returning to work immediately. In contrast, Thompson argued against this view by highlighting the necessity of paternal involvement in early childcare to prevent gender inequality in the workplace where women currently shoulder the entire burden of leave-taking. He noted that while men cannot replicate the biological functions of mothers like breastfeeding, they serve as crucial co-parents who handle logistics and organization, drawing an analogy to owl monkeys where fathers are constantly present while mothers nurse. The discussion evolved into a critique of how both sides framed the issue: Galloway dismissed paternal utility entirely during infancy, while Thompson reduced fatherhood primarily to a metric for achieving gender equity rather than celebrating it on its own merits. The narrator posits that neither perspective is fully correct; instead, fathers are valuable not because they can do what mothers do or solely as a tool for closing the pay gap, but simply because dads and kids have an amazing dynamic together. This "pro-dad" argument seeks to validate fathering based on its intrinsic benefits rather than forcing it into existing frameworks of gender politics or traditional masculinity that involve smoking cigars immediately after birth. Regarding the specific question of whether fathers should be in the birthing room, the transcript cites research by Darby Saxbe indicating that evidence is mixed and inconclusive due to the practice being relatively new, having only been common for about 30 to 40 years. The narrator shares a personal anecdote illustrating the potential downsides; despite preparing with a fan he failed to assemble in time during labor at home, his partner eventually prioritized giving birth over fixing it. However, even when participating actively, complications can arise, such as confusion in water-filled birthing pools where fathers might mistake their own anatomy for the baby's head crowning or struggle without proper swimming trunks and sharp scissors, leading to awkward situations that midwives must manage urgently. Ultimately, the conclusion drawn is that there should be no shame attached to either being present at a birth or choosing not to be, as individual experiences vary significantly based on circumstances like home births versus medical settings. The narrator emphasizes that mothers are equally entitled to decide if they feel more comfortable with another person assisting them during labor rather than their partner, especially given the physical and emotional intensity of childbirth which can become murky in pools where visibility is limited. Practical advice for any father considering attendance includes ensuring he has a Phillips screwdriver ready just in case household items break under pressure, bringing high-quality scissors to cut the umbilical cord effectively instead of hacking at it with inadequate tools, wearing appropriate swimwear if using a pool, and understanding that while they may not be able to perform every task perfectly, their presence offers unique support distinct from maternal capabilities.

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What happened with this debate between Scott Galloway and Derek Thompson? Did you see it? >> I didn't know that this happened. >> Oh, you didn't see it? Okay. >> No. Well, it kind of went partly cuz I know them both and Scott's on our advisory board, as I mentioned. Um, so uh Derek Thompson came back from paternity leave and it was actually the first thing he did. Uh was go on Scott Galloway's podcast. I think he said it's not just like the first day back, it's the first hour back. And he'd been, I think, on paternity leave for a couple of months. And that just triggered this debate where Scott said, uh you're just back from paternity leave. How, you know, how you doing? And I'm finding my way back. I won't be as coherent as usual. Of course, Derek was incredibly coherent. Um Uh and Scott just said, well, honestly, I don't understand this whole paternity leave thing or even why men should go to the births. I don't think men should be at the births. It's disgusting. Uh and men should be outside smoking cigarettes like the old days and then they should go back to work. Um I just think it's ridiculous. Uh basically. Uh and Derek was like, uh well, actually men do need to take time time off to kind of be with their kids because otherwise, like women are the only ones doing it and you'll have gender inequality in the workplace, right? What I find interesting about that and I haven't I said anything about this publicly yet, but it's I think they're both wrong. I think that Scott was wrong in suggesting that men and dads are of no use in the kind of early months. They are of a different use to moms, for sure, but they're very often the main allo parent now, right? They're very often the kind of one that's around and they very often are the one that's like getting stuff done. They're like, do you ever heard of the owl monkeys who are like the best dads in the in the natural world, apparently? No. Owl monkeys, right? Where the dads are kind of around all the time and basically moms are doing the breastfeeding and the nurturing. Dads are doing everything else, right? Dad is getting [ __ ] done, right? He's getting the food, he's getting organized, he's right he's he's around but he's still around them, right? That's kind of how it is, I think. That's certainly my experience, right? So, you're not going to you can't do what mom's doing. Mhm. That but you also don't feel the same way that mom does about the baby. You just can't, right? Just can't. You're not wired to at that point. Um so, you're still useful. So, Scott was wrong about that. Um but I didn't like the way Derek framed this as as like men should take time off so that women aren't the only ones taking time off so that we can get close to the gender pay gap. He he framed it as a gender equity issue, right? >> And I I my view is dads should actually be able to take time off and should take time off with their kids, not just when they're young, etc. Not because they can do what moms do, nor in support of gender equality, but because dads are awesome and kids are awesome and kids do really well with their dads around them, right? So, I don't I I don't I don't want to be the deputy, the kind of malfunctioning mom, the kind of oh, if only you could be a mom. Like, no, no, dads are amazing. And so, I I'm really pushing this idea that kind of fell between those two stools of like the old idea of like dads should just go back to work, smoke a cigarette, have a cigar. I think he meant cigar, actually, but have a cigar, a whiskey, back to work. And Derek saying is like, no, if you're a good gender egalitarian, you've got to take time off. Right? Even if you hate it and you suck at it, right? Because that's the way to get gender equality. I'm like, guys, guys, what about just saying dads are cool. And being a dad and and the way dads are with their kids a bit different to moms on average in many ways, amazing. So, I want like a again, a pro-dad argument rather than a gender equality argument for fathering. Should dads be in the birthing room? The evidence on actually interesting Darby Saxbe, who I mentioned earlier, Dad Brain. She did write a response to to this kind of thing which you people can find. And she kind of rightly pointed out that actually the evidence on how the unprecedented trial of dads being in the birthing room uh is going is really mixed. We don't know. And actually kind of sometimes in surveys afterwards, like moms have mixed feelings about it. If the birth doesn't go well, I think you talked to animation about this. So, it can be quite traumatizing for the dad. So, I think look, I'm I'm making trouble for saying this now, but I think that we have to be honest that the evidence is a little bit mixed and I think it shouldn't it shouldn't be like it shouldn't be shamed for doing it or shamed for not doing it. And moms, by the way, should also feel like if they feel that they'll be better off with their mom or their friend or kind of somebody else, they should feel okay saying that to their partner, too, for the actual birth, right? >> Neither are obliged to I don't Yeah, it's sort of cuz as Darby points out, we've never done this before, right? How long have men been in the birthing room? Maybe about 30, 40 years. Interesting. I shared this with my with my wife. I said, did do you think it blew up? And she said, oh, Scott says that men shouldn't even be in the birthing room. She said, yeah, I probably wish you hadn't been. What? I said, what? It's like 25 year 25 years later. I said, what? So, you got to know you I thought it was really useful. What about What about all of my words of encouragement? >> harm than good. You did more harm than good. I mean I mean I don't I haven't I'm now sort of litigating something personal on All right, we can just go back to it, but there are pros and cons, but but I honestly think like it's not it wasn't I mean, the real truth is it was a very hot day and I'd ordered a fan cuz I knew it was going to be hot, but I didn't realize the fan wasn't made. So, I opened the box and she went into labor. She went into labor. She said, lay. She said, lay there. And I'm shouting from the other room I'm going to the other room, right? She's going having contractions. We did it at home, right? And um and I said, uh do you know where THE PHILLIPS SCREWDRIVER SHE SAYS I I SHE SAID, I DON'T NEED A Phillips screwdriver to have a baby. And I'm like, no, but I need a Phillips screwdriver to make the fan. I'm not great at DIY. Anyway, it was my So, I said, so, do you know where it is? She said, I just want to get in the dressing room. I'm in the other room. I'm trying like under huge pressure now, right? THIS IS LIKE I'M TRYING TO MAKE I'M TRYING TO MAKE THE FAN. AND THEN SHE SAID, you know, she's like, forget the [ __ ] fan. Just like I'm like, I'm having the I'm having the baby. I'm having the baby. Fan or no fan, the baby's coming, right? I'm nearly done. I'm nearly done. I'm I'm on like I'm on like step seven with the Phillips screwdriver. So, I you know, I didn't I wasn't amazing from that point of view. So, I think the fan thing it it joined us together about my view. And then anyway, the other one I I'm all in now. I said the other one I said was in the birthing pool, right? Cuz I was very into that. And in the birthing pool and we'd been to one of these very I think I Yeah, I think I can share this. So, we'd been to this very very like progressive forward-thinking like midwifey thing, right? About birthing at home. And if you have it in the pool, that's going to be great, which is good, by the way. I mean, I think the whole like over-medicalization of childbirth birthing. Like I'm I'm I'm really persuaded by that argument now. That actually doing it more naturally is really good. So, don't really misunderstand here. Having the pool. But she said, but guys, just can I just say something to you? She said like it's quite it can get quite murky in there. Can't see it or which is true. Um and she said, and so, the only thing I'll say is if you get in the pool with your partner to support them, right? Put something on. Put some swimming trunks on. She said because there have been occasions when I've seen something spherical and hairy in the water and I've assumed that it's the baby's head crowning. And I've gone in to help it and it wasn't the baby's head crowning. It was the dad's testicle. And so, I grabbed him by the bollocks. It's such a great right? And then literally every guy in the room was like, So, this is the other child, right? So, so So, this time she's having a baby. She's like, get you know, I want you to get in and rub my back and do all this. I'm cool. I'm here for you, honey. And then I go into the other room and then I'm shouting out, where are my swimming trunks? Like, what are you talking about? So, I need my swimmers. I can't find my swimming trunks open. And the midwife is like, for God's sake, she's having the baby. Get in the pool. I don't care. I don't care. I said it's not about modesty. I said I was the lady at the thing the lady at the Lamaze class. She said you've got to you've got to wear swimming trunks. I said, I'm not getting in there without a swimsuit. So, so anyway, so my main advice. And then I guess the other one, the other child was like, you get to cut the cord and I was terrible at it. I couldn't cut it. I was hacking through it. I thought you'd have to use these massive shears, you know, it'd be like like like opening up a new [ __ ] Can you kill me? City Hall. >> It's this tiny little pair of scissors and you're trying to hack through it. It's really gristly. Took me ages and then in the end the nurse was like, I can't do it. And to this day, my eldest son has got this really weird belly button and he blames me for it because you know, so so, all the fathers out there, key key items if you are going to be with them. Phillips screwdriver or make pre-make the fan or have a Phillips screwdriver, a really good pair of scissors cuz the ones they give you are crap, and swimming trunks. And then you'll be fine. Hey. Oh, good. Before we continue, most people in their 30s are still training hard. Their protein is dialed in. They sleep better than they did in their 20s. Discipline is not the issue, but recovery feels somewhat different. Strength gains take a little longer. The margin for error starts to shrink. 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