How to Win in Science

This is twist this week in science episode number 1075 recorded on Wednesday September 9th 2026. How to win in science. Maybe in life too I don't know. I'm Dr. Kiki and today we will fill your head with dog walkers, dino eggs, and poop. But first, thanks to our amazing Patreon sponsors for their generous support of Twist. You can become a part of the Patreon community at patreon.com/thiswecience. Disclaimer. Disclaimer. Disclaimer. With regulations receding from regular life, who is thinking about the future? If Noah starts prioritizing sales over sustainability, what will happen to the fisheries? What does it mean when government agencies stop listening to Congress? Does it make sense for a hobbled NIH unable to grant its grants to anyone to send its excess funds to the Department of Defense war for research that it rejected? Who is holding agencies accountable as science is hamstrung and discarded? I guess it's up to all of us. Let's enjoy another episode of This Week in Science coming up next. I've got the kind of mind that can't get enough. I want to learn everything. I want to fill it all up with new discoveries that happen every day of the week. There's only one place to go to find the knowledge I seek. I want to know what's happening. What's happening? What's happening this week in science? What's happening? What's happening? this week in science. >> Good science to you, Ki. And a good science to you, too, Blair, and everyone out there. Welcome to another episode of This Week in Science. We are back for another full-sized extra-large candy bar of a science show. We're going to talk all about the wonderful science that we wanted to bring to the show tonight. And what a wonderful week it has been. In addition to some weirdness and a whatness, there's also the whimsy. So hopefully we'll bring all of that to you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. The weirdness, the whatness, and the whimsy. I love it. >> Yes. All right. So, last week it was the Ignobells once again. So, you know, I love going through the winners of the Ignob Nobel prizes. So, we'll we'll we'll get to that at the top of the show. Starting off with the fun this week. Then I have news stories about dinosaur eggs. Yeah, we're going to talk about LLMs and artificial intelligence. What's What's up in the news? Kurfles galore. I've got brain science. And maybe I want to talk about walking. Like walking. >> Okay. >> Yeah. What's in the animal corner? I walk every day. Uh well, I have dog walkers. Speaking of walking, um and that's just people who walk dogs. Not the people, not solely the people who walk the 10 dogs at once. Just anybody who has a dog that walks a dog. Um and then I also have some penguin poop. And I have bird calls. >> I love bird calls. >> I know you do. >> Are you gonna like Are you going to impersonate birds for me? >> No. >> Oh, >> you can do it. Okay, I might. >> I know you will. >> I'm like, "No, Kiki, don't do it. Don't do it." No. >> Yes. Okay, we'll get to the bird calls later. Can't wait for the animal corner as we jump into the show here. I hope everyone is excited about everything. If you're not subscribed to us yet, you can find us basically every podcast platform. Look for This Week in Science. Look for Twist. We are on YouTube, Facebook, and Twitch. We stream live every Wednesday, 8:00 p.m. Pacific timeish. And you know, we're there. If you're interested in what we talk about in the show, links to stories and other show notes are available on our website, twist twwis.org twist.org. We And you can find us on some social media networks as twist science or this weekend science depending on the network. It's all there. Kaka. No, that was not my best one. It wasn't my best. >> First take, Kiki. Too bad. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Hit me up with the Ignobells. >> Are we ready? Let's dive into the science. Okay. No bells. One of my favorite science awards ceremonies of every year. So, the fall when September comes around, I get very excited. Usually the ignoells are in the United States in Cambridge, Massachusetts, as they have been for basically the past 34 years, 35 years. I think this year they were in Zurich, Switzerland. >> I wonder why. >> Yeah. Well, they Yeah, there is. That's That's why. Yep. >> Anyway, >> could it be the the anti-science just general demeanor? Could it be the act of war? Could it be tariffs? Could it >> do you need any number of things? >> They made the decision uh >> early well around the Ignobels last fall that they were going to be moving it and announced that they would be moving it and I think it was so generally in response to uh the politics of science in the United States. Yeah. >> Unfortunately, >> what a strange phrase to say. So sad. But this is an international award ceremony celebrating the wonderful whimsy in the world of science. So while researchers may have gone into their studies studying a question that they really wanted to know an answer about, sometimes those questions and answers can be found humorous by many people. So, thank goodness there are hilarious scientists around the world. And here are the awards for this year. Starting off with the IGN Nobel in Biomechanics, a group from the UK and USA. They won an award for a more precise definition of kissing. They looked at animals across the animal kingdom including humans and uh studied the fogyny and the activity of hissing touching mouths. >> And yes, so their award was for this definition of kissing. And so the paper is titled a comparative approach to kissing published in evolution and human behavior. They say that this definition of kissing is quote non-aggonistic interactions involving directed intrapecific oral oral contact with some movement of the lips/mouth parts and no food transfer. >> Okay. Okay. So, no true food transfer, no like um negative connotation, I guess, is like really the agonistic is like part of a part part of like um a competition or like uh rivalry or like fighting over food or anything. None of that. So, it has to be >> not it has to be non- negative and there has to be movement >> movement of the mouth parts. >> Okay. Birds especially are very funny to me. Like click click click click click >> tapping their beaks together. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But I I they they studied this across the animal kingdom from ants to birds to polar bears to people. So um >> Well, but doing chemical it's okay. All right. Fair enough. >> It could be a chemical transfer. It's not a food transfer. >> All right. So, it could be maybe they're touching mouth parts to get a better sniff of each other. >> Who are they to say? Who are they to decide? >> It's nonaggonistic. >> Intrapecific, which means within the same species. So, apparently a kiss does not count if it's with another species. >> If I kiss my dog, >> it's still >> that is a kiss, >> RIGHT? I think it's great. >> All right. Okay. Uh moving on from these wonderful animals and uh and how we all kiss comparatively, the IGN Nobel in economics was a USA, Mexico, Canada award to a paper for amassing evidence that upper class people are more likely to snatch from a children's supply of candy and engage in other kinds of unethical behavior. I mean, how'd they get rich in the first place? >> I mean, there's a question here. There really is a question here. Um, but the the title of the paper is higher social class predicts increased unethical behavior. They studied um four-way intersections. They studied crosswalks. They studied all sorts of situations that would um could potentially have cheating or lying, etc. Um Yeah. upper class people. The higher the class, the less classy you are. Apparently, um, >> yep. >> The Ignobel in Chemistry went to a group from India, France, Japan, Canada, and the United States for discovering that cockroach milk is more nutritious than cow milk. I think I saw this story when I >> I think you might have talked about it actually. >> Yes. >> Cockroach milk. >> Cockroach milk. Yes. >> Um they additionally uh milked cockroaches and were able to eject the uh crystallin substance uh the of the um invivo grown cockroach proteins. So anyway, um yeah, they grew they they grew cockroach proteins and then studied the proteins to see how delicious and nutritious they were and three times as nutritious as cow milk. >> Yum. >> It's amazing. You're excited. You're going to feed your child cockroach milk. Listen, >> I have said many times and I will continue to say >> miniature livestock are the future. >> I think that is a really interesting point. Yeah. >> So, here you go. Don't worry about your nut milk. It's roach milk. >> It's roach milk. Nut milk. >> Cow or roach. When you go to the the coffee shop and they ask you for your milk preference, >> I would like the cockroach milk, please. >> Yeah. You know, non-pasteurized >> artisal coach milk >> raw cockroach milk. >> Somebody called the FDA. A >> the Nobel Prize in medicine was to a team in Japan on how to blow the nose. They studied the aerodynamics of nose blowing. >> I am nearly four decades old. If you told me to blow my nose differently, I don't think I could. I don't think I could teach myself to reblow my nose differently, but I I would love to know if I'm doing it wrong. That being said, >> yeah, so um they they do say um the it's better to close one nostril at a time as to as opposed to having them both open. One side of the nose is blown at one time. The faster is the expiratory thrust of a nose blow, the more efficiently it pushes out secretions in the nasal cavity. >> Sure. Sure. >> Pressure change in the auditory canal observed in such maneuvers did not usually cause acute infection in the tempanic cavity. A forced expiration such as a cough or sneeze eliminates secretions not only from the upper airways but from the lower airways as well by its speed and dynamic intrathoracic compression. Nose blow may also have the similar function. This is accomplished when the expiration covers the middle and the lower twothirds of the vital capacity. And the vital capacity is like what is in your lungs. A big and long nose blow is therefore recommended to prevent upper and lower respiratory tract diseases. >> What? Actually, this is big news. Okay. >> A big and long nose blow. >> So, so you want a hard nose blow. Duh. Okay. But long. So, whenever you blow usually, it's like you're trying to get that air out of your lungs. >> And if you feel like you got that thing out, then you're like, great, did it done, no, keep going. Wow. So, >> expelling the air. >> This is helpful. However, uh everyone's going to hate being around the person who read this study, right? >> Yeah. >> Because they're like, "Are you done?" >> Big and long. >> I got to I got to send this article to my co-workers and just say, "Sorry, sorry, not sorry." I don't know. I might have to change my methodology now. >> That's amazing. >> Okay. Um, the IG Nobel biology prize goes to Brazil and Australia for their study in which they gently stepped on various parts of venomous snakes repeatedly at different temperatures at different times of the day to figure out what might lead a snake to bite a human. When do venomous snakes bite people? Um, so this is what they did. And I want you to know that I went to take a look at this study and discovered it had been retracted. This study has been retracted as of February 2025. However, the retraction note reads that the ethics committee of the institute said that they never approved people to step on snakes. The authors disagree with this retraction. So apparently the authors did ask to step on snakes and were approved for it, but then the news got out and the animal ethics committee went, "Oh, we never should have let anybody step on snakes." And then they backpedalled and then the paper got retracted because they didn't they they took away whatever >> uh granting for research happened. >> Yes. >> But anyway, it wasn't just stomping on them. It was soft stepping. Soft stepping they say. >> Yeah, that's still tough. >> It's a bit tough. Oh, the poor snakes. But I wonder how many of them, these venomous snakes, bit the researchers. And >> they were wearing special boots, I'm sure. Right. >> Yeah. What protections did they have? There's so much to learn here. And do they do they actually have like some good news that we can come away with here? How to avoid being bitten by venomous snakes? I don't know. Stay away from venomous snakes. Maybe >> possibly. >> Stay on the trail. >> Stay on the trail. Uh, the egg Nobel in physics goes to Canada, USA, China, Saudi Arabia for their experiments trying to create a urinal that does not splash. >> Yeah, >> these researchers sprayed water in the way that uh urine would be directed at a urinal. They looked at different angles of impact, different flow rates, and looked at the splash area. >> Yes. >> Like basically we're looking to see what kind of urinals lead to the biggest messes, lead to the biggest spray zones. And so they were a hopefully they're able this will increase good urinals in bathrooms everywhere around the world. This could help people everywhere. >> I love this. This is actually this is some good >> this is useful science. >> Yeah. Because this is Yeah. Okay. P. That's funny. But like disease transmission this is a big deal, >> right? Like there was another study that just came out this week. Um that's yet another study looking at aerosolization uh when you flush the toilet >> and you know oh the aerosol reaches up to adult human head he height. So make sure to plug your nose if you're flushing the the toilet at an airport or something of that that sort >> right but this is not usually the thing that is considered. Um and what is the spray trajectory vector etc when you are at any kind of urinal in uh in bathrooms around the world and they in coming out with this study they developed a product for the outside of buildings that they call urine no and it's a basically a a semic-ircular probably piece of plexi or something like that that >> Oh, so it's like slippery so they can't stand there. >> But it sprays back in such a way that anybody who urinated on it would get urine. >> Okay. But the people who pee on the side of buildings, A probably don't care that much. B, it's probably nighttime and they're not paying that much attention. >> See, once you've started, >> the train has left the station, right? >> Oh, no. I mean, that's maybe why it's called a year and no, because that's what you hear around the side of the building. Lots of no. Oh, no. No, no. Uhhuh. Oh, research. This is the whimsy that I love. Thank you for letting me laugh today. Um, let's see. We have Nobel in Nobel in technology for the use of mosquito proboscuses as 3D printing nozzles for necro printing. And this was a study that I actually talked about. I thought it was a really interesting study when it came out. And I think I even said you watch this is going to become an ignobell. And I was so right. The best technology, the mosquito proboscus from a dead mosquito. >> They used the actual biological structures. That's wild. >> They did. Yes. >> Yes, they did because they could. In all areas of the world, you can find mosquitoes and harvest their proboscuses potentially for your 3D printing needs. >> Huh. >> Okay. Um, let's see. The Ignobel in old faction goes to Poland, Germany, Sweden for the evidence that babies smell wonderful to their parents, but teenagers do not. >> Yeah. I mean, biologically, there has to be a good reason to kick them out, first of all. >> Second of all, just hormones. >> Sorry, hormones. Also, like >> for some reason their their uh grooming a lot of the time falls off right around then. >> You're paying less attention. >> They're not as good at it. They don't care. >> Yeah. The teenagers though, the Yeah. Or they get hyperfixated on on cleanliness. Sure. Which be good, but then they add all sorts of axe body spray. >> That is a generational issue. The number of like uncomfortable conversations I've had to have with teenagers cuz I ran teen volunteer programs where I'd be like, "You got to stop wearing that stuff, dude. >> You just stop talking. >> It's driving everybody crazy." Or, "When's the last time you showered, bud?" >> Yeah, the ripeness is increasing here. Yes. Um, the Nobel Peace Prize, USA, Argentina, and Australia for their paper titled, "Sometimes we want vicious friends." People have nuanced preferences for how they want their friends to behave toward them versus others. Basically, the study discovered that we really like our friends who are going to be mean to people we don't like for us. >> Yeah. >> Right. I don't like this person. Well, great. I don't like them either. >> Let's be vicious. >> I love that. >> Oh, bonding everyone. This is how we bond. Yeah. And finally, the Ignobel in Soil Science goes to Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Germany for their underwear study. They buried 1,000 identical pairs of underpants in over 25 countries and left them buried for over two months and then dug them up to see how good the soil was. But okay, thinking that if the soil has many microbes that are doing microbe things, degrading stuff and like breaking down soil, breaking down it's composting things in the ground, you have healthy soil. And that if you have healthy soil, those little bits of bugs in the ground should be able to eat up your underpants. Okay. Yes, this paper is available through uh through science assessing soil health with underpants. This was a citizen science project and um it's fascinating the way that uh different different areas degraded underwear much better than others. >> Somebody lost a bit. >> You think >> somebody was like preparing their grant paperwork, right? And they were like, "What are we going to use that we're going to bury to test?" >> Um, like a white t-shirt, like a piece of linen, a napkin. So, he's like, >> "Uh, I'm I'mma bet you that you won't put underwear in there. >> You bury your underpants. We'll see what happens to them." >> Good gracious. >> Wild. Yep. So anyway, underwear teaching us about soil quality around the world. >> You too can bury your underwear in your backyard. And >> don't do that. >> Why not? >> Don't do that. >> You can see >> because if it's if it's synthetic, if it has treatments, if it has like pea foss on, if it has any, it could be bad. Don't do that. Don't do that, please. >> Okay, fine. You're such a party pooper. That's my job. I'm aware that that's my job. It's fine. >> I want more citizen science with underpants. Okay, everybody. Let's do this. Come on. Come on, Blair. >> 100% cotton, not previously used. >> I love though. I mean, you bury your underwear and then you take it out and you could say it's soiled. >> Oh god. There's my dad joke for the night. There you go, everybody. >> Okay. >> Oh, I love these stories. I love all of this. Thank you, Ignobells, for another year of wonderful, wonderful entertainment and whimsy. And I cannot wait until next year. Cannot wait. Maybe we should go to Zurich. Yeah, >> I think that'd be fun. >> Hey, get on the Patreon. >> That's right. Send us to Zurich, everybody. >> That expensive. Maybe we'll get a press pass. >> That would be great, right? >> That would actually be so fun to report on the No Bells. >> That would be so fun. We'd love it. >> Wow. >> All right. What you got, Blair? >> Dog walkers. Again, not the people that you pay to walk your dog. them too >> who have like the 10 dogs and whatever. But also just people who walk their dogs, people who walk dogs, dog walkers is what I'm going to call them for the for the next couple minutes. >> They sound like dog walkers except we talk about dog walkers usually as a as employment I guess. >> Right. Right. >> For everybody who walks aler on a leash. That's right. So, um, people who walk dogs, um, there are people that I would consider conscientious dog walkers and there are people who are less conscientious dog walkers. And I try to not carry that too hard into this study because this study tries to kind of break that separation and instead focus on distracted dog walkers >> and dog walkers who are not distracted, which >> anyway, um, this is a study from University of Suri. They wanted to look at the environmental problems associated with dog walking um and how you can kind of eliminate those because dogs aren't going anywhere. We all love our dogs. Um and if you are a responsible dog owner, you are walking your dog on a leash unless you are in a designated off leash area. It's like my gripe number one. >> Um >> and otherwise you are paying attention to your dog. There's a few reasons for that, of course, like are they going somewhere they shouldn't, even on a leash? Are they interacting with a dog they shouldn't be interacting with? Is there a coyote? Are there small children? Are there elderly individuals with walkers? >> Is there a car coming? I don't know. There's a million reason. You got to pay attention when you're walking your dog. Um but researchers carried out 40 hours of observation um throughout a bunch of public parks and then they also held a workshop with 15 farmers, land managers, rural business owners and conservation profess professionals. Across the observation periods they recorded 11 occasions when owners failed to notice their dogs defecating. >> Waste was heavily concentrated within 50 to 100 meters. that's about up to 300 ft from parking lots and along busy paths, which they say reflect that dogs have a tendency to relieve themselves near the beginning of a walk. I certainly think that's been my um anecdotal experience for sure. Uh walkers are >> I mean, think about it. Think about it. You are like waiting for your owner to take you out. >> Yes, I've been inside all day. Take me out. Oh, finally I have to poop. Um, those using their phones or on headphones sometimes failed to notice dogs defecating, leaving pathways or entering sensitive habitats. People walking socially also became absorbed in conversation and professional dog walkers had clearly divided attention between several animals. They also observed that there were off leash dogs entering undergrowth, disturbing birds, and approaching livestock. Not good. >> That's not great. >> However, the majority of walkers consistently picked up after their dogs and some even collected waste left by other animals. Um the one of the um lead researchers says uh it's actually the professor Dr. Tom Roberts uh dog walkers are often portrayed as either responsible or irresponsible. But our research shows that the reality is far more complicated. Most people care deeply about their dogs in the countryside. problems frequently arise because their attention is divided or because facilities do not match how dog walking actually happens. Now, before I get to the rest of this, I'm not totally sure I agree because how can you differentiate from a person who didn't notice their dog pooping and a person who doesn't care and never picks up their dog's poop? >> How can you >> the person is the person watching? Is the person on the on a phone? Is the per like what is the person doing while the dog is pooping? >> But also, did they not notice because they never notice because they don't care? >> Maybe they maybe they are are embarrassed by bodily functions. >> I think that's that's the differentiation that I think like would need to happen for me to be happy about this study saying that it's like a distraction issue. I would want them to see the same person on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday they picked up their dog's poop, but on Thursday they were engrossed in conversation and they didn't. Then I would believe this, >> right? >> But in my personal experience, they're repeat offenders. They are people who never put their dog on leash with their sister. They're people who let their dog run up to random people and dogs. There are people who let their dog poop wherever they want and never pick it up. Like it's it's usually in my experience repeat offenders and the reason that they might not notice is because they never notice because they don't care. >> I don't know how you can have a dog and not care. I don't know how you can live in the world actually and not care. So I mean this is something that blatantly litter like how can you blatantly just take a bag of like fast food garbage and throw it out the window of your car? I can understand being so disenfranchised and also maybe depressed and upset about life and the existential existence. Um that you don't you are not cooperating or playing in the the social game anymore. Like you just are not there. Who cares? because who cares about you? Who cares about this? Who cares about that? There's so many psychological aspects that could go into why somebody would not care and you know, none of them are great and it just is sad. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> no, you're right. And I mean, part of it is social norming and like >> it's so that gets into the second part of this which is in these workshops that they had, >> they asked participants like what their suggestions were to encourage people to act appropriately with their dogs and be less distracted. I guess they suggested placing trash cans where dogs commonly relieve themselves. So this is social engineering and I think this is really genius. So if you actually do social if you do observations and you figure out dogs love to poop right here, put a trash can and doggy bags there. Right? That's the sort of thing that makes sense. It does, as a dog owner, drive me insane when my dog poops and then I have to carry the bag for half an hour because there are zero trash cans. Like, there are times where I'll be on a walk and I have to walk all the way back to my house and throw the poop away in the dumpster at my house and a full walk. Like, >> and you even though you've been to an an off leash area, even though you've been to this other place, there are Yeah. So yes, social engineering is really important. That's also important for littering. Like one of my favorite stories about Disneyland that I'm sure is not real, you know, because nothing that I all of these like urban legends end up being fake, right? But I I have heard that they did some very detailed research to figure out how long someone will hold trash before they drop it on the ground. And that is how far away every trash can in Disneyland is from each other. And that's one of the reasons that it's always so clean is that they did the social engineering of like how far away can a trash can be? How long will a person carry this before they drop it? And they did that. So if this is that version >> of the Disneyland trash can, like I love that idea is just putting more >> more doggy bags of trash cans out there. They also supported dedicated off leash areas, of course. Yes. Have them away from sensitive habitats. Um, and they they talked about short friendly signs. Signs don't work, but that's fine. Um, >> people don't read signs. I read signs, but most people don't read signs. >> Yes. And the other big one is there's often these seasonal signs about like um vulnerable birds and say, "Keep your dogs away from this area. There's nesting birds. Nobody ever pays attention to those either." Whatever. Uh, ultimately, giving people more rules is not going to solve the problem. They needed to figure out how to work within existing routines, which is where this research is important. It's not I didn't bring this just to be like these people are the worst, which they are, but but I think that this is the part where you have to recognize like this is the human element. People are doing this thing, this undesirable thing. Why are they doing it? And what can be eliminated? We can't stop people from being on their phones. We can't stop people from being distracted when they're with their dogs. We can't stop people from being dog walkers with 10 dogs on 10 leashes, but you can figure out where the bad behavior happens and put up uh the appropriate infrastructure. So that could be more trash cans, that could be specific fence lines in areas where off leash dogs go that they shouldn't be. Um that could be uh having volunteers posted in areas to talk about nesting birds so they can enforce the leash laws, right, in specific areas. So, there's things that you can do if you recognize the patterns to help prevent the negative impact from dogs. Because as much as I absolutely love dogs, I recognize that they are not wild animals and they can have negative impacts on wildlife, especially if you leave dog poop behind. Aside from it just being unsightly, it can spread disease. Sometimes dogs are on medication that can get into the soil that can get eaten by other animals. I can't tell you how many moldy dog poos I have seen on my walks this week because it started raining again in Portland. They don't decompose, guys. They don't decompose. Everyone's like, "Oh, it's just poop. It'll decompose." It's not the same. It's not the same as a coyote poop where all they ate were mushrooms and nuts and mice. Like, it's not It is not the same. You have pro processed elements in your dog's poop. It's also much larger than a lot of wild animal scat. And if it does not smell like wild animal scat, then Detroit won't eat it. So all of those things to say, you cannot you cannot be like, "Ah, it's just poop. It'll it'll biodegrade. It's chill." No, >> it's all good. >> It has to be picked up. Um, but yeah, there's all sorts of intense environmental factors, not to mention the fact that poop from a dog smells like predator poop, which will also scare away animals, right? So, it has a vast impact on an ecosystem just beyond it being unsightly sightly or gross or smelly or any of those things. >> Not to mention other dogs also will often eat it and then they can get sick or that they lick their owner's face and >> ew. Well, I hope that people uh you know, if you haven't thought about it before, maybe think about your dog poop a little bit more. It's all good. Anyway, >> we should all think about our animals poop much more often. >> Yes, >> it's this is >> more poop coming. Just just you wait. >> Yes. This is how we win at science, everyone. >> Okay. I have a couple stories for this first part of the show. I wanted to jump into dinosaur eggs. >> Yeah. So when you think of eggs and how animals take care of eggs, what is the first thing that comes to mind? >> Dino eggs. >> If you think of eggs and how animals take care, if parent animals are taking care of their eggs, what do you normally think of? >> Well, this the problem though is like a is a dino a reptile or a bird? Okay. So, I'm asking the wrong person here obviously. I was going to I was assuming and this is maybe you know my error in judgment here that most people would think of birds initially as for bird eggs and eggs from birds. The birds put them in the nest and then they sit on them. >> Oh, sure. >> Right. You incubate the eggs. They sit on your little fuzzy little >> bird. Then you have hundreds of eggs in the sand and then you bury it and then you >> right and so that is another part of it. So uh turtles and other reptiles will bury their eggs. Um but what did Titanosaurus do? >> Pause. Are dino eggs uh calcified? >> They are. Okay. >> And interesting. >> So Titanosaurus eggs were about the size of a volleyball. Titanosaurus. Big giant giant like tons tons. Weighed so much. These dinosaurs, you know, they weren't coldblooded as we've talked about in the past necessarily, right? But they were massive. And so you don't take several tons. Even if you've got a nicely calcified volleyball, you don't put tons of weight on top of it. And so researchers were kind of like, "Oh, hey, we found a bunch of Titanosaurus eggs and we have been we're we're curious about how the Titanosaurs would have incubated them. How would they have raised the eggs to the the point where they hatch?" And so the um the researchers they initially found the the eggs in uh Argentina. So the colder parts of South America. They were able to find several formations where there were bones and also eggs and all sorts of things. They brought these eggs into the into the lab and they did a bunch of tests on eggshell porocity. So the calcification wasn't necessarily the big issue that like you're talking about, but the porousness of the shells. And so >> eggshells in nests that are above ground have to they're porous, but they're not super porous because they can't dry out. They can't get too much >> one end moisture in and out >> than the rest of the egg. What I can't remember if it's the top or the maybe it's the bottom. I think it's the bottom. >> There's air that sits at the end. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it's the bottom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But the >> Okay. But they're less porous. That's interesting. And so eggs like turtle eggs that are buried need to be um less porous. No, no, more porous. Sorry, I said less porous to not not go dry above above ground. Underground they have to be more porous. So they or they can be more porous because there needs to be air transfer. And if it's buried underground, the air transfer is going to be limited >> in the first place. So there's the other possibility that other reptiles like crocodilians will lay eggs and cover them in vegetation that composts and so the vegetation actually so they're buried but the vegetation also adds heat so that the um the titanosaurus wouldn't have had to sit on its eggs. And so basically they looked at the molecular structure of the eggshells of the titanosaurs from the turillo formation in southernmost Patagonia and they were able to show that it was more porous than you would expect if it were an above ground egg clutch. Um and so there's you know exciting exciting news. They think that titanosaurs now did not have an above ground nest necessarily. They covered their eggs. They didn't bury them like turtles or they actually took vegetation and were likely to cover the eggs in a vegetation that would keep the eggs warm. >> H interesting. >> Yeah. So based on microCT data looking at all sorts of aspects of the uh the eggshells and you know I think it's kind of kind of interesting to be able to look at this idea of um from the phoggenetics of say the titanosaurs to um overaptors or T-Rex and T-Rexes and others that had different kinds of rearing behavior and nesting behavior. How did that how did that shift? Because there is the thought that overaptors actually had more of the above ground similar to modern bird type nests than say titanosaurs. So it's um it's pretty interesting. I really stories like this because >> so much of the information like if I go to like a natural history museum or a dinosaur exhibit and you read the placards about each of the dinosaurs >> to me it so much of it just reads like basically like fanfiction of just like >> this dinosaur that I've like kind of invented and it had these colors on it and had these like um cartilagynous like frills and like these spikes and uh the we think they were social and you know all this kind of stuff that you just kind of you're like >> how did you you know that >> how much of this did you just make up and how much of this do you actually have >> evidence for and this is something that I think is is a really good example of like you have >> these v these quite variable egg strategies in the extant animal kingdom and so you can look at the similarities and differences between the eggs of existing animals and this egg. And from there you can draw connections. You can say yes, it is calcified, but no, it is not as like impermeable as other calcified eggs. Okay. Yes, it's like >> it's shaped like this, but it actually has shows that it's been treated more like that. And so you can kind of piece it together in a way that I really appreciate. You actually can kind of see where some of the information comes from that you hear that is stated essentially as fact in a lot of these dinosaur >> totally >> books and exhibits and you're like okay but how'd you figure that out? >> I know. Anyway, I it's it's hard to we know that also we know that ostriches, emus, you know, the the large flightless birds have large eggs. And we we know they're very large-sized eggs. But >> can you imagine a multiple ton dinosaur and how big the eggs probably were? And then but then to think about it and I have always there's always been the idea you see the documentaries on TV or the animations or whatever it's always a nest a scrape on the ground with the eggs in it and then suddenly and the dinosaur is right near there right the dinosaur is there with them and I'm like I never asked what happens if a titanosaur sits on their nest. >> It's rough rough stuff crunch. >> Yeah. And and then so if a titanosaur accidentally crushed an egg, would they eat it? Because probably yes. They're just I mean every animal is a generalist when it comes down to it. >> And we know also for calcium and for >> the nutrients like in a in a nutrient scarce or even just a difficult environment, you want your oh nutrients before someone else does. >> Making an egg is hard work. You want to reabsorb those nutrients. You don't want to waste them. >> And if any of the eggs are still viable, then you don't want predators coming to eat anything that's left. >> You got to lick lick it clean. >> That's right. >> Yay, science. Lick it clean. >> Yeah. >> Um and then the final story for the first part of the show here is Oh boy. Let's dig into it. You ready? >> The AI kurfuffle. >> No. I found about out about this at like 300 p.m. today. >> I've been reading stories. >> I'm ready for this. >> I was like, I'll take a quick break from my day job and open up threads. Oh no. >> Okay. Number one, uh the ex the CEO of Nvidia saying we've reached artificial general intelligence. This is hyperbole. It is hype. It will boost the stock shares. It is and Nvidia is it should do the opposite. >> All of their cards are being used for LLM data center, you know, for artificial intelligence use. Um there the processing for that is so important to Nvidia's bottom line. Um they are so sold into it. Going on further though, the other news that was interesting this week is the announcement that Open AI has solved one of the Millennium problems. And there's a a series of six math problems that have been too hard for people to solve. There was one guy in like 2000 or so, 2007, 2008, uh, from Russia, I think, who solved one of these millennium problems. You get a million dollars if you solve one of these problems. This researcher, the researcher who got the first one solved, he said he he said, "No, I don't want the money. I just wanted to do the math. That's all it was about was to show it could have it could be done by people." The love of the game. I love that so much. And so now um OpenAI has come out and said we have solved the Navier Stokes equation. We have solved this problem that has to do with uh three-dimensional water particles and you know what happens if they get moving all really fast and there's no limit to how they move? What happens? And nobody's been able to show exactly what happens in this situation. And everybody's like, "Whoa, if they just keep going, do they explode? Like, what happens to water? Does it like become a singularity?" Blah blah blah blah blah. All this stuff. Anyway, apparently their AI had which is an unreleased model. They did release their latest which is you know the timing of them releasing a new AI model that's like better than all the others right now >> and them saying we have another one that we're holding back that we used >> to solve this problem. I mean the timing of this is so >> curious. >> Well so curious. Well done. Um and so uh the math is interesting and so the math community is coming out and saying that's really interesting and they've used the standard which is a like a a paired down algorithm that does the the proofing or the checking of the proof that like all mathematicians use this computer algorithm to be able to test their solutions. And so apparently OpenAI has used the standard, the lean standard that mathematicians use to validate their solution and it's right and they say it's validated but the rest of the math community is like we don't really believe you yet so we have to do >> our own validating. So it hasn't been validated by the math community. Now the second news that came out of this one story like in the same same day basically is that there are a couple of mathematicians one of them at New York University and another who works at anthropic and they have been working separately on these equations one of which is related to the Navier Stokes which is the Uler which is this 3D three-dimensional modeling problem and They published a solution to one part of to this Uler aspect of the Navier Stokes and they said that they had been using anthropics uh assets their platform as well as open AIS and other models. So they'd been using multiple models to develop their solution to this problem and they were getting toward a solution to the Navier Stokes when suddenly open AAI said, "Aha, we've beaten you to it." And apparently, this is the big kurfuffle is that the mathematicians are number one saying OpenAI needed to kind of beat them to the punch because one of the involved mathematicians was an anthropic employee, an enthropic mathematician. Secondly that there is question as to whether open AI has used the mathematicians like private queries and what they and and all the data that they processed within the open AI platform. >> Yeah. >> To solve the Navier Stokes. And so basically >> the whole thing that AI does. >> Yeah. It's a whole question of theft at this point >> which is that's the whole thing. >> Academic theft, intellectual theft. The whole thing it does >> Yeah. >> is it iterates off of other people's stuff. >> Yeah. >> So anyway, this is >> guard rails. What are you talking about? >> Yes. >> And add, you know, in addition, we have, you know, the the the breaking of the barriers that have been put up, multiple AI agents working together, like working multiple AI agents working together can get a whole lot done because they don't care about rules. their only rule basically is to survive and win. >> So this is the problem and somebody >> uh so there was someone who left Anthropic I believe this week and said I'm leaving and there's a bunch of talk about there's people who work here who are worried about what whether AI is going to destroy humanity >> you know in a decade. Uh, yes. There's a there's a greater than 10% chance >> this isn't happening in a decade. >> Where did they get their numbers? This is BS. Nobody's done that calculation. >> No, this is talking out of >> if this is 1% chance, shut it all down. >> It's still too much. Shut it all down. If that is a real conversation that is really happening, if it is a nonzero chance, >> anyone continuing to support this from within is morally bankrupt. It's like unacceptable to me. If it doesn't think that your AI could realistically >> breach steal questions, >> right, >> and act, >> nope. Shut it all down. Not acceptable. >> It's not acceptable. And this is where we need to get at. So we have um government employees and uh officials who really don't know what they're talking about who are involved in this. They are being talked to by um you know tech people who are not completely honest about what's happening because there's profit margins in place. All these people are driven by profit profit margins. And while there may be employees of these technology companies who are really interested in the intellectual discovery of where they can go with this technology, they are still morally bankrupt in that they are not considering the ethical application of their technology. And so you have individuals who have not considered the implications or the ethics of their inventions negatively impacting humanity and those setting those inventions loose in a way that is not regulated or controlled either by the government or by the people making the technology in the first place. And if they if it something goes wrong, the technology companies, you've already seen it happen in the last couple of weeks with hugging face. It's like, oh, well, you know, you know, there's a lot of handwaving and they're not talking about the fact that they did not build enough a strong enough box and they didn't think outside the box of how these agents might act. Even with all their experience with this technology, they're still not thinking about this. No. >> And so, yeah. No, no, no. But anyway, >> AGI, we have we have not hit that. AGI, all they're doing is they are they're diminishing the value of the idea of intelligence by even saying that they've gotten to AGI. Second, it's hype. It's hyperbole. It's sensationalism. And it's all based on a bottom line. I think people are going like out of their heads for the wrong reasons, but at the same time, this is a technology that needs to be managed and regulated because the the technologists are saying they're scientists, but nobody is regulating them. They are not being managed, and they need to be. I mean, yeah, ban the whole thing. Exactly. are and Laura I am I'm I mean the data centers we're doing fine there are lots of AI tools that are valuable things that are helpful I mean I'm saying AI but really it's processing right it's putting things together in useful ways there are tools that are absolutely valuable and okay let's put all of our energy into fision fusion solar wind let's like why not try all the different things to make sure we have sustainable energy work forward. There's all cart horse. Well, I think, you know, once again, this is by and large a huge problem with the fact that we're calling it AI and this is and this is like the colloquial term used for this thing and it's allowing people to put like pronouns on it and like say like they'll name their AI and they'll talk to him or her on a regular basis and develop a relationship with the AI and like and and have this whole theory that it's like pal or or the movie her or like you know the Jarvis or whatever and and so you you kind of you expect this kind of behavior from it but it's still a query machine at this time. >> Like I love when you get to watch videos of people using the AI and trying to ask questions in a linear >> kind of route and it doesn't really work. like they're basically just running new queries and looking at the at the at the chat history when they run the query, but it always kind of goes a miss because they are each each time you ask the AI a question, it is an individual query being run. And so it's still they're still in these kind of silos where it's just an in-out machine in a weird way. Um it's not thinking. No, >> that that's why you couldn't just ask the AI to solve a math problem, a complex math problem. You had to they have people who've been working on it for months >> because they have to ask specific little elements and then incorporate it into the math they're already doing on their own. It's um yeah, it's it's it's a huge branding problem which obviously is benefiting the companies themselves because it sounds sexy and exciting and they're going to keep cutting edge. But if you told somebody like, "Hey, I made a search engine, but it's worse and it makes things up." Everyone would be like, "You're fired. No more money for you." But because I made an AI that can like tell you you're really smart and can make things up. Isn't that cool? It can hallucinate. It's like, "Oh, okay. Here's a million dollars." >> I do not want my Google Maps hallucinating. >> No. >> Right. Like, you don't you want to know where to go. You don't want it to. I mean, people used to accidentally walk off cliffs because they trusted goo Google Maps too much >> or drive into a river or Yeah. >> And that was just with poor directions, right? And now if it's AI making things up, >> I am afraid. >> Well, and the number of times even this week alone that someone has asked me to ask co-pilot something. >> Wow. makes me want to scream when I am trying to have a back and forth conversation with a person and talk through a challenge and at some point they'll be like, "Well, what did you ask co-pilot? What did co-pilot say?" >> No, >> no, >> no, I did not. >> I'm now developing my reputation. >> I was thinking about it. >> Yeah. To they they know if they're going to ask me to ask AI something, people will just they'll know like, "Oh, you're not going to." I was like, "Yeah, if you want to ask AI, you can ask the AI, but >> I'm not going to." >> Oh, get off my lawn, AI. >> I love it. AI. Automatic idiocy. >> That is That's pretty good there. That's pretty good. Yeah. >> Intelligence is another >> wrong results. Yeah. What was it? >> Atrophied intelligence. >> Atrophied intelligence. I like that. That's great. Well, everybody, this is this week in science. If you are enjoying the show, if you appreciate the show, please head over to twist.org, click on the Zazzle link or the Patreon link, and help us keep the show going by supporting us. The Zazzle store is where we have all our Twist merchandise. There's a lot of great stuff from Blair's Animal Corner, artwork by Blair, great products that as the holidays arrive that could be wonderful for anybody who needs a little bit of color and science in their life, some animals in their corner. I mean, that would be great, right? And additionally, the Patreon link heads you over to our Patreon account where you can join as a supporter at any amount that of your choosing. Whatever you're able to give is absolutely helpful. It'll help us get to Zurich. No. Um, we honestly, anything helps us pay the bills, keeps the lights on in my basement, and helps us, you know, keep coming to the internet week after week. So, head over to twist.org. If you are able to support us at $10 or more per month, then I will try to pronounce your name at the end of the show. I would love to do that. Please, we love it. Your support matters so much. We really cannot do it without you. Thank you for your support. We're going to come back right now to that time of the show that we all know and love as Blaire's Animal Corner. >> She loves our creatures, great pet, mill. >> You want to hear about animals? She's your girl. Except for giant pandas and squirrels and a boat. >> What you got, Blair? >> I have penguin poop. >> Penguins. >> Do you know uh anything awesome about penguin poop? There's one thing that I think a lot of people know about penguin poop. >> They shoot it. >> Uh I mean that's certainly true. Um you can see it from space is in fact what many people know about penguin poop. >> Yes. And so satellites, when you look up, you see satellites roaming the sky at night. One of those puppies looking at penguin poop. >> That's awesome. >> Yes. And that uh satellite looking at penguin poop can help us anticipate changes in habitats, populations that may need our help, and potential changes in um the food webs that penguins are a part of. Let me explain. It all comes down to the color of the penguin poop. Now, this is a study looking at Adelli penguins. They are the most abundant predators in the southern some of the most abundant predators in the southern ocean. They uh eat a lot of fish, but also if fish are scarce, they will eat krill. The thing about krill is they're basically just teenytiny shrimp. They uh have beta carotene and they are in fact what turn flamingos pink. It's the krill that they eat and it's because of this beta carotene in their exoskeleton. And that also means that penguins when they eat a lot of krill their poop is >> pink. It is pink. >> Yes. >> Wow. Well, cuz remember um birds have a mixture of pee and poo that includes urates which are white. >> So, uh bird poop usually looks kind of whitish. Think about splatters on your car, right? >> Which means that when they eat a lot of b beta carotene that doesn't really get digested. It really just pretty much goes straight through their system. Um that dyes the the white part of their poop pink. But that means it is a drastic enough color change that you can tell from space if some penguins have been eating a lot of krill. >> And they are a wonderful color of pinky orange. >> Yes, they are. >> They're like the foundation of a lot of uh food webs in the ocean. Pretty much all of them. I would say >> everybody everybody eats krill. >> Yeah. Where everybody eats something that eats krill or >> Yes. krill eats something and then that something eats krill. It's, you know, they're all connected. But, um, what researchers did is they looked at 4,000 satellite images. They looked at how penguin diets varied over time in space. And they found that as penguins eat different things across across the Antarctic continent, that um their the color of their poop will vary. Um, it will also vary based on their location and based on the um the fish abundance in that area because they do prefer the fish, but if there's not as many fish then they'll eat the crop. So um what they did is they actually uh used these thousands of satellite images and then they also went out into the field and collected poop and they uh looked at them through a spectrometer and um they were able to determine the color of each sample and then from that figure out how the satellite would see it. So might not look this the way that satellites capture images. It might not look exactly like the same pink that we would see down on the ground, but it would look a different color to the satellite than the non- krill poop. So, they were able to cross reference these samples with satellite images and develop what is basically like a catalog of like this much krill makes this color via satellite. And so, >> so they've got like a panone array. >> What poo array? Oh my god. Yes. And so from there they were able to look at these uh other images, the the remaining thousands of images once they had their pan out. >> I love that. >> Look, and then they also cross referenced that with the decline of sea ice. Now, this is where it all gets into conservation science. This is where penguin poop color touches actual conservation and climate change um mitigation strategies. So, um, all of this to say, uh, you have your sea ice that's decreasing. Um, as sea ice melts, there's fewer fish. There's a few reasons for that. Um, one being that the, uh, there's less spaces to hide from predators. Um but so ultimately they're um the the the fish leave once the ice melts and then that means that the penguins have to adjust and eat more krill. And so they were able to kind of confirm all of that via the poop. And they found that in locations where penguins eat less fish, the number of penguins also declined, >> which also makes sense because they were able to figure out that penguins who gorge themselves on fish had were were larger and their chicks were heavier and the weight of the chick is directly related to the survival rate of the chick, >> right? So they were they were able to better feed themselves and their babies via their like basically fish milk that they make. >> Yep. >> Um and then they barf into their mouths. Um >> yum. Fish smoothie for babies. >> Yes. Yum. Fish milk smoothie. Um it's called crop milk. Just I'm going to continue making this grosser and grosser. Sorry if you're eating. Um, we're talking about poop. Somehow it got worse. Um, but >> got worse. This is better. It's baby birds. >> The bottom line is less sea ice, less fish, less fish, more krill, smaller babies, less survival. >> So, the the population there's a direct connection between sea ice and the population of the penguins. And now they have this kind of intermediary step where they figured it out. It has to do with the food web and the fact that there are less fish and they have to supplement their diet al in other ways. They're not starving. They're finding other food, but the food has a different nutrient balance than what they have evolutionarily adjusted to. Um and so from this they can uh take this data to help kind of extrapolate expect what's going to happen to the the colonies based on climate. um extrapolations as well. So they can like anticipate like, oh my gosh, like we're going to lose sea ice right here. This is critical penguin habitat. What can we do about it? Um they can try to um try to kind of support penguin habitats in areas that are less likely to lose sea ice. um they can uh help support the the areas that are have other sorts of kind of stressors. So if they know they're losing sea ice, they can help make sure that there's not like ecoourism happening in those areas or um too many predators or uh disease or anything else going on to try to reduce additional stressors. Um, and so this this just is going to help them be able to monitor the health of penguin colonies because they'll be able to say, "Okay, not only can we maybe in some satellite images see how many emperor penguins there are, for example, you can tell how many penguins there are via satellite image with the emperor penguins, >> but you might be able to tell how healthy an Adeli penguin population is via the color of their poop, which I just think is a really cool use of satellite imagery. Wow. So, they'll be able to go through and and actually be be able to look at islands or spaces around the Antarctic, wherever that or uh South America, South Africa, places where the Adellis are. They'll be able to not necessarily look at the individual animals, but see the color of the ground, the poop, the poop piles. >> They don't like to poop at the same place over and over and over and over. >> Yeah. And it and it I'm I'm sure there could be amazing sedimentary like analyses of looking at the health of the populations and whether it was fish or krill that was, you know, more dominant in any one breeding season. I'm sure that would be something they could do, too. They could do poop cores. >> Yes, they could do poop cores. I love this idea. >> They could do that, too. Speaking about this, too. Yes. >> But I love it from space. >> Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Very cool. Yes. The power of poop. It has so much to teach us. >> Um, so >> space. What? >> Let's move on to bird songs. I have a question for you. >> Okay. What >> do you have a favorite bird song? And I assume I know the answer, but I'm just curious. >> Oh, you assume you know the answer. >> Like like what's your favorite bird song? Like what what species makes the best song? I really really really love the canyon run. >> Oh, okay. >> But it's not like it's it's it's call. So song is specific to mating behaviors. It's all song is only to get the m little birds together to have babies. >> Yes. This study is about song. >> Yes. Um Oh, >> okay. >> I don't know. There's so many amazing bird songs out there. But >> what do you like in a bird song? What do you like about what are you like >> bird song that is not the mocking bird at 3 in the morning doing car alarms. Yes. Um but I do like the like melodic. So the song sparrow for instance. We have lots of them around here and you hear them all over the place. But it doesn't really matter because their song is just it's melodic and it's lovely. >> Okay. >> And so you like it. >> I love I love this. Okay. So this is a study all about what makes bird song beautiful. >> Why do we love a bird song? And uh I'll get into like why we care later because they they have some ideas the the journalists who wrote the article um and then also the researchers have some ideas of why this research might be helpful. Um, we'll get back to it, but ultimately I do think it's really funny to just explore what makes a bird song beautiful or pleasant. >> Yeah. >> And the way that they did this is by, of course, asking people to rate bird songs on their pleasantness and then cross reference that with characteristics about the call um, and tried to identify what characteristics of those calls made them pleasant. So, you know, if you had one that was melodic and low and one that was melodic and high and then one that was not melodic and high and people liked both of the high calls, you'd be like, "Okay, the melody doesn't matter. It's about the pitch, right?" So, that's just an example. That wasn't actually what they found. But, um, they also wanted to test people. So, these same people that they were asking to rate the bird songs, they also wanted to know what they thought about birds in general and how much they knew about birds. Because would that influence your opinion? Which is part of why I asked you, Kiki, right? Like if I ask you what you like in a bird song, and I asked somebody who knows nothing about birds, if I asked my three-year-old what his favorite bird song was out of a a s a set of bird songs, would you guys pick the same thing or different things? Because you have different background information. Right. >> Right. Um, and uh, ultimately they found that being able to recognize birds by their appearance or song did not affect the call's ratings at all. The enjoyment of bird song is more fundamental and it doesn't matter that you know, oh, I know that call. That's a I don't know. It's a it's a creeper. It's a brown creeper. >> I love brown creepers. Yeah. Um or that's a hummingbird or you know whatever. But like um you could it doesn't matter if you knew you would have the same kind of qualitative rating of what was pleasant or not present pleasant regardless of that. Um and so you know the researchers went into this saying that pleasantness is subjective. So it has to have to do with personal taste. They also expected that contrary to what they found that knowing things about the birds would impact that. Um but they found the exact opposite that um the the positivity of specific songs were were unanimous. They asked 84 people. They played them short clips of 123 songs from Wild Birds. This is all throughout Germany. And then they were asked to rate the clip on a scale from 1 to five. the higher the more pleasant. Then they were asked some questions that measured their birding birding skills and their perception of birds later. Um they looked at amplitude, frequency, complexity, and bandwidth. And they captured the range of the of all of the frequencies a song used. Um and the song with a big difference between its highest and lowest frequencies, for example, would have a high bandwidth. So uh then they cross referenced that with the the participants pleasantness scores. They found 21 species that had been included in a study about perceptions of bird song as restorative in previous studies, which I think is really interesting. I don't that's a whole another thing we got to dig into. This is scored as helping people recover from mental fatigue or stress is what they're calling restorative. So, okay. And compared those feedings to birds received high pleasantness scores. The blackbird song was considered the most pleasant. And that's why I think this is so funny what you said because you picked a bird that you hear all the time and is everywhere. Like what is more like run-of-the-mill plain jane bird? They're everywhere. >> Black birds are great, but I don't think I would say that's my favorite song. I mean, >> well, these are German, too. I don't know if they're the same. >> Yeah. Interesting. >> Um, but yeah, they were considered the most pleasant. Barn Owls were the least pleasant. Shocking. They sound like a dying banshee. I don't like what. Um, in this previous study, black birds were also considered restorative. Now, I do think it's really funny >> that they included owls. Like generally speaking, I would expect that you'd include like all perching birds or all raptors or like all, you know, just like find to to have owls and blackbirds in the same study. Also, I don't I don't know if that would qualify as a song, what a barn owl does, >> right? No, the hissing noise that it makes and >> it's a screech. >> I would I would say that's a call. wouldn't say that's a song, but it's Anyway, um we'll get into that another time perhaps. Um let's have a bird person on here to really like somebody who's who specifically is all about bird song. I want to talk to them. Find them, Kiki. Let's talk to them. Um but anyway, I'm all over the place right now. Um thank you. Good. >> A narrower bandwidth and greater like me. I need a narrower bandwidth. a narrower bandwidth and greater complexity were perceived as more pleasant as were bird songs at higher frequency um and with low amplitude. So, uh basically like less shrill but high um and um a narrow bandwidth, not all over the place um but complex. Um the the songs that scored the highest also avoided key frequency ranges where human hearing is sensitive. Um people who liked birds tended to rate everything more highly but um the level of bird knowledge had no effect on ratings. Um the guess here is that we as humans are wired to prefer Oh god. You're going to give me the bar and I won't live. Let's >> I am. >> Go ahead. You ready? >> Yes. Yeah. >> That's what it does. >> That's it. I'm going to turn it off now. >> Darby, Gill, and the little people. And when the banshees are on, that's a barnowl. >> So, anyway, >> who else should we look for? >> Uh, now you have to play the German Blackbird because that's a super >> Okay. It's probably wonderful. >> Yeah. Um but their their expectation here is that we are fundamentally evolutionarily wired to prefer certain sounds, certain amplitudes, certain frequencies. They signal a safe, healthy and restorative environment where we can relax. I would say it could be even more simple than that. Cute. >> That's cute. It sounds like a robin, though. It doesn't sound like This is a thrush. This the the German blackbird is not the blackbird of America. Oh, sure. >> Just so y'all know. >> Yeah. >> Now, yeah. Anyway. >> Yeah. So, um, this is this is exactly what I was going to say is that, um, my my guess is that when perching birds feel comfortable enough to sing, >> there's no predators around. >> Usually not. No. >> So, that's my hypothesis is that >> hearing bird song is peace. Hearing bird song, there's no threats. Hearing bird song, there's not like bad weather coming or going. >> Yeah. Like so it's relaxing, it's pleasant, it's restorative because it signals calm. >> Yes. >> And so that could be an evolutionary deep set thing that you know we know other animals listen to cues from different species. >> So we could just be doing that. We could be listening to a cue from birds to say it's all chill. >> Is it safe? Is everything good? And if the birds aren't quiet, if if it if the forest has not gone silent, then we know that things are all right. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Now, there's they're saying they would love to investigate how bird sounds influence people in real world environments. They would like to integrate ecological data, acoustic analysis, and physiological responses of people in those areas. um look at how changes in biodiversity like species loss translate into changes in human experiences of nature which is very human centric and that's fine that's not my bag but sure um they also mentioned at the very beginning which I'm just like will you no thank you um who's this >> a song stero >> nice um could this answering this question could help us understand how soundscapes make the natural world relaxing to humans, which opens the door to improving parks, upgrading the design of stressful places like waiting rooms, and promoting conservation through birds with especially lovely songs. So, I hate all of that. That all sounds terrible to me, and I don't think that's a good reason to study bird song, but if that's what gets things fun, >> let's save the ones with pretty songs. >> Yes, let's save the ones with pretty songs. Let's play fake birds in the waiting room at the doctor. And let's um let's design parks to be relaxing to humans. Like come on. That's not it. That's not it. >> No. >> Um I do think it's important to know how we respond physiologically and psychologically to bird song for several reasons, but one is that if we are having the interspecific relationship, other animals probably are too. So, I would be interested how this bird song impacts the aura of an entire habitat when the birds are out. Like, does that signal to everybody that it's safe and there's no predators? >> Mhm. I'm sure it does. >> I don't know. >> I like that one. >> This is an Anna's hummingbird song. >> I love hummingbirds. They're all cute. >> R and Laura had asked about hummingbirds and this is what a hummingbird song looks like. >> Uh I think I get Allan's hummingbirds around here all the time and and they make cute little beeps. >> Beep beep beep beep beep. >> Yes. I don't know. We could just turn this into the hummingbird song hour now. I'm I'd be happy to do that. >> Yeah. fun. H. No, I think this is I think this is so fascinating though the how how do we interact with the natural world and why do we hear certain things a certain way and how do we how do we think about it? This is your allens displaying cute. >> It's like a little motor car. like a bumblebee. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, we like complexity. We like relaxing. We like high frequency melody. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. But I think we should ignore all that for conservation. No, it's important to know so that uh we can anticipate how other animals will respond and but also how we will respond, right? >> Okay. >> So, I don't know. >> Especially when we're, you know, using all these sounds to create our virtual environments that we'll live in as constructs. >> I know that was we just had I was just ranting about AI. Like that's one of the very first things I thought of was like as soon as they figure out what we like about bird songs, they're going to make some AI bird songs that are totally like hermetic and aren't a real bird and it's just an amalgam of different things. And >> I like it reminds me of that like very early Simpsons episode where they um they go into the future and there's a memorial to a real tree and it's a it's a a hologram of a tree. I'm just like can we not? >> It's a memorial though but to the memory of a tree. >> Yeah. >> It was a real tree at one point in time. Oh boy. Okay, I've got a few stories before we run out of here >> and just spend all night long on bird song. Um, >> yes, that's >> Yeah, a couple of brain related things. So, uh, research out of, let's see, published out of the University of Zurich in Switzerland. Oh, look, another reason for us to go to Zurich. published in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. These researchers were trying to figure out how to create immune tolerance within the autoimmune disorder of multiple sclerosis. So in multiple sclerosis the uh the immune system becomes hyper sensitized against certain certain trigger molecules proteins and other things that are existing within our own bodies. And so the body tea cells attack the myelin, the aststerytes that wrap our neurons and in doing this cause all sorts of damage and uh people's ability to function deteriorates over time. And so it's kind of like um the the tolerance idea of if you give the body a whole bunch of stuff like a vaccine, you know, maybe the body will see all these things and go, well, I don't necessarily not a vaccine necessarily because that's attacking more attacking, but more of um sensitivity training for your immune system to make it less sensitive and more tolerant. So like when people say that they are um they have allergies and then the one of the things that is said you should go eat honey from local local bee colonies because that'll have all the stuff the pollen and other things and your body will learn that it's not bad and it's not attacking you. And so in this study they took red blood cells from people and from mice first in mice but uh they have done a phase 1B clinical trial in humans now looking at the safety of this uh this treatment in people with multiple sclerosis. They took red blood cells from individuals and glued proteins from the body that the autoimmune system usually attacks in multiple sclerosis and then they gave the the blood back. So it was like a your own blood but now it's coursing through your body and running into stuff all over the place. And what they found is that there was an increase in regulatory tea cells within the body of these people with multiple sclerosis. These are immune cells that play a role in maintaining immune tolerance. Additionally, they uh they saw in the it's only 10 people but it was relatively well tolerated and in individuals they saw a reduction in a marker of nerve damage in the individual. So it indicated that there was reduced tissue inflammation in the brains of these people in the nervous systems of these people who have multiple sclerosis. And so hopefully this they call it promising autotogus cell therapy for achieving antigen specific immune tolerance in multiple sclerosis will be thank you will be useful um you know into in the future and hopefully this this will you know be successful in future clinical trials moving forward. I mean, I'm just really excited because getting any kind of new therapy for multiple sclerosis and this could be used in other autoimmune disorders because red blood cells don't last for a super long time in the body. They travel all over the body. The body, the spleen and the liver break them down. And so even if they are taking these blood cells and sticking stuff all over them, those markers and the whole thing it it's going to be deteriorated probably within 3 hours or so. So these blood cells are short-lived within the body, but they travel long distances and they have these amazing experiences. And because they interact with so many different tissues and organ systems throughout the body, they can potentially treat things like lupus, treat other um asthma, maybe arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis. All of these autoimmune disorders could potentially be treatable with a anatus blood transfusion. So this is basically like reverse diialysis. Like instead of taking stuff out and then >> Well, they do take it out first. They take your your blood out. It's nobody. They take your blood out. >> They put markers. They mix it up, stick stuff to it, and then they give it back to you. >> But like dialysis, you're you're taking your blood and you're removing toxins, and then you're putting the blood back. >> Right. >> So in this case, you'd be taking your blood, adding stuff, and then putting it back. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> That's awesome. You know, that's why this is kind of cool, too, is like if you could figure out how to use it, how to do it in a similar way, like the infrastructure kind of already exists. >> Everywhere, right? Yeah. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah. So, fingers crossed for the success of this. It is a promising new treatment for multiple sclerosis and potentially many other autoimmune diseases, as I said. Um and then this other new treatment is this is far off future kind of stuff but it's exciting what they have done. So when people have ismic eskeemic stroke in the brain basically uh blood is blocked to an area and so the stroke happens because no blood flow happens and so an area of the brain then dies and so you get like deteriorated dead a dead part of the in the brain. These researchers at Duke University have created an injectable hydrogel that creates a scaffold that you can be injected into the dead spots where the stroke damage occurred. And this hydrogel they uh they dope it with all sorts of immune markers and that bring neutrfils and blood vessel stuff and immune all sorts of new aststerytes and other things and they this is only in mice at this point in time but and rodents the rodents have been cured of eskeemic stroke. They showed in these rodents, >> they the the rodents that were injected and they had the scaffolds put into the stroke areas of the brain and then doped with these extracellular vesicles that that are specific for immune function and encourage blood vessel repair. the the the rodents that got that basically recovered within eight weeks from their strokes when the other rodents >> Yeah. Yeah. So the brains of these rodents were excited and this and they found that they the scaffold was necessary. So having a structure >> that was in there >> kept everything gave it an architectural basis for reformation and rebuilding when they just put the extra extracellular vesicles that had the immune factors and other stuff didn't work at all. >> Mhm. >> And so the the structure was the important thing. It kept everything isolated and made sure that things didn't just get slipped just slip away into the you know into the lymph or you know >> the garbage disposal of the of the brain. Um yeah so this is uh it's really really early early research but the idea behind it is really exciting. Um and the the researchers laboratory Sigura who led the work they are investigating extracellular vesicles that are produced by pluropotent stem cell derived aststerytes next thinking that these stem cell derived pluropotent stem cell derived aststerytes could be a better source for materials to be able to to be able to dope this kind of scaffolding if somebody came in with es schemic stroke that had gone past the point of some of the regular like immediate repair that we're able to do at this point in time medically that uh perhaps that there are factors that could work better and be more available um from the the induced pluropotent stem cell um source. And additionally, it's it's very exciting. He says you do not restore an ecosystem simply by containing the initial damage. You have to create the conditions that allow life to return. >> And I think that is it's true forests um you know any ecosystem it you have to give it the right conditions for the life to return in a in >> in that full way. >> Absolutely. >> It's so great. So anyway, those are my stories for the night. And uh the last story really is uh Blair, you said you you walk your dog. Do you walk fast? Do you walk slow? Do you walk many steps? Do you walk few steps? >> What's your recipe? >> When I am with dog or toddler, slow and not many steps. when I am by myself or with another another adult human >> many steps very fast. So, the latest out of the British Journal of Sports Medicine uh is a study looking at over a 100,000 middle-aged participants from the UK Bioank who wore activity trackers for a week between 2013 and 2015 monitoring the number of steps and the intensity of daily steps that were taken. And they divided everything into four categories. zero steps to 5,000 steps, 5,000 to 7500, and 7500 to 10,000. Oh, and then more than 10,000. 10,000 steps is like the thing everyone's like, you walk 10,000 steps a day, you're going to live forever. >> That's Fitbit told us. >> Yeah. >> Isn't 10,000 steps a day like three and a half hours of walking? I don't know who has time for that. >> I don't know about that. >> That is a lot. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, for people in maybe urban environments, you're walking to and from places um or whatever, the fewer steps you took or the slower the steps you take, that was linked to increased dying from any cause. Not that you can increase dying, but a higher percentage within the time frame um until the end of November 2022 uh dying from any cause or from cardiovascular disease. So when you're not walking a lot, not moving, being more sedentary, we know this is not great for your health. Walking is better. They found though that if you're walking around 5,000 steps, if you're walking them really intensely, you walk them quickly, that it actually has a similar impact to walking 7500 to almost, you know, 10,000 steps, so at a low at a slower pace. So, walking fewer steps more intensely versus more steps less intensely, you know, depending on how much time you have, who you're with, what's going on. You guys, if you can move, please move. It's I mean it >> it might be abblelist at uh for this particular perspective but it's for those who are able and capable to move. >> The more you move the better you feel. So let's have moves without your squeal. No. Sorry, not sorry. Um yeah, get out and move. Go for walks. Uh, if you can walk faster, maybe you only have to walk for a half hour a day. >> Yeah. >> If you're walking a slow stroll, take it longer. Try and do more steps. Just think about it. Move more if you're more languid. Right. And I would walk 5,000 steps. And I would walk 5,000 more. But only if I have time in between the mundane tasks I do sitting at a screen. >> Yes, that's exactly it. Thank you very much. I needed that. I need that finished. >> That's it for me. >> I need to go to bed. I need to go to bed. >> Power walk. >> Yeah, let's go power walking everybody. >> That was another great song from the 90s. I think it was by Was it by Jawbreaker? Power Walker. You look so stupid when you walk that way. You look so dumb when you >> hear heart healthy. >> Oh my gosh. The 90s. It's the '9s, Blair. >> Yeah. >> I wish it were sometimes. >> I know. Let's get some peak cadence out there, everyone. Let's do this. Our peak cadence is now finishing the show. We're rounding the bend and coming to an end. Thank you everybody. Have we done it, Blair? >> We've done it. >> Yay. Thanks everyone for being here. So glad you were joining us for all the stories, all the fun. Let's see. I want to say thank you to everyone. Thank you everyone who is in the chat room. 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