How to Use Stillness to Achieve Greatness | Ryan Holiday on Conversations with Tom

[Music] conversations with Tom I am here with none other than Ryan holiday dude thank you for joining me course so this is gonna be the hopefully most laid-back and then laid-back strong word it's gonna be far more informal as I was explaining before I want to push my own thinking in real time yeah which means I'm a [ __ ] up your flow which on impact theory it's all about I want the guests to get in the flow I want to like you said walk them through the book I want I want to set them up to get their ideas across in the best possible way for the audience okay so that show will continue to do its thing but what I want to do with this is push my own thinking in real time sure chase things that I'm fascinated by which some of it will almost certainly be a miss right I'm going to go down some rabbit hole that's gonna end up being [ __ ] and we're not gonna cut it out we're like just gonna let it rock this is gonna be unedited that was the other thing impact here he's not I can't scale it it takes so much of my time so much of the team's time that it was like once a week if I tried to do any more the team started having heart palpitations yeah so I said alright let's come up with a new show format something that requires less than 11 hours of prep on my part and an interminable amount of time on theirs and you know just see where it goes who happens and you had asked me a question just a second ago because I said I'm violating the number-one rule of perennial seller with your amazing books which is don't try to do two things at one time which is precisely what I'm doing and so you would ask what the two things were and they are I am simultaneously trying to build that would all call the nonfiction side the social side so it's me staring directly into a camera and telling people sure this is how you think this is how you act and you're gonna get farther in life than you otherwise would and then the other side is pure fiction it's creating comic books and movies and TV shows and while there is massive amounts of synergy there's no question that it is not the same audience so every person that I pour into the nonfiction side there's not they aren't necessarily backwards compatible to the people on the fiction side I hope the people on the fiction side are completely compatible the other way and that is sort of a graduation system where we capture you emotionally with the fiction and then hopefully we can graduate you ultimately into the nonfiction so I don't think that's a wine I very much relate and to I'm not sure it's a contradiction and if I'm remembering what I'm saying in printing uh so I think my argument is don't have two contradictory goals at the same time so someone goes like I'm trying to write a work of you know literary fiction for fancy people and I want to be really famous at the same time like they'll do or they're like I want to sell lots of copies but I want to win lots of awards and those are again not always the same thing and so you're asking for two separate what the mistake there is you're you're pursuing two different outcomes with one product right and that's if not impossible very difficult I very much relate to what you're doing because I do all sorts of different types of books right so and and there is this hope or this dream that like so I write these self-help books you know you go the enemy obstacles away I would have thought like hey write this book conspiracy which is like a nonfiction book about how you know sort of power operates behind the scenes and it's driven by narrative I would have thought there'd be like a one-to-one connection the netbook is done well but it's almost exclusively done well with people who didn't read the other books and so in in a way one read is disappoint disappointment the other read is that it's actually additive right and then I would say both those things are irrelevant because at the end of the day as an artist as a creator as an entrepreneur although you have to be driven by business and you have to be driven by like success because if you're not like the the you run our fuel is in the form of money but like you do the things that get you out of bed in the morning like you don't not work on something because you're you think it will do well but you're not interested in it and conversely if you're super interested in something it's usually a mistake to just like shove that away and you know I'm saying like you got to go where the heart goes that is interesting that's an interesting summation that it didn't expect you to end with I want to go back to something you said so I'm sort of mulling over that notion if you have to go over the heart because I think the the real truth of it is you have to have the business documents so you said you can you can't pretend that money doesn't exist and this is what I find with beginning entrepreneurs especially because I'm the guy that's out there like hey you really need to have a passion there needs to be a why like I tell the story about starting quest because I wanted to save my mom and my sister and so people resonate with that yeah and there's there's definitely that is super powerful and very very true but if you don't learn how to run a business if you're not savvy enough to make something profitable you're really gonna fall by the wayside and so yes you need to go where the heart goes but at the same time because I get hit up by people all the time that are like I want to build this audience I want to help people and like that's you're coming from a beautiful place but if you don't [ __ ] understand business like you're never going to get anywhere yeah I think that's right so with my books like I think there are things I could do that would make them sell more copies that it's not that I'm not willing to do because they're marketing it's more like I think I could write a simpler less nuanced book in any one of my books but I don't think that would be intellectually honest right like mining you find something you find the way that you write more interesting it's both interesting but also at like chives of my principle it's like look I think the secret is the most successful self-help book of all time because it tells people what they want to hear but and I think it's utter [ __ ] right like you're just manic that you can make more money telling people what they want to hear rather than giving them what they need just like I'm sure there were all sorts of corners you could have cut with quest that would have made the company more profitable and probably even made the things taste better or sell better but ultimately been in contradiction with the whole reason you started the company with the begin with so it's like I became a writer just to pursue what's interesting to me to say what I think is true you know to popularize the ideas that I think are important I'm not going to then go do the opposite of that or only 80% of that because I think I can sell more copies that way like I guess it's just about finding a balance right it's like how successful do you want to be and what are you willing to do just like every athlete could probably like look is there a way I could get away with doping and is that how I want to win yes or no it's interesting I feel like there might be a slightly different fundamental question that people have to ask themselves okay which is how do I want to feel about myself when I'm by myself and I guess I wonder like I do not know this man I've never met him ever in my life but Lance Armstrong yeah I'm gonna guess from the things that I've seen and again I do not [ __ ] know and if he wants to come on the show I'd happily have this conversation but I have a feeling that like to him pushing the boundaries of what the human body can do even with exhaustion of substances like that that doesn't matter to him and I'm guessing that he doesn't lose sleep over that even if people want him to yeah and so when you look at a lot of either a violation of what most people will say as a problem or a non violation of what most people will see as a problem has perchance very little impact on how the person actually feels about themselves and I would say that how you feel about yourself is ultimately the thing that should be driving your decision-making yes you at the end of the day you have to sleep in your house right I mean you have to know if they look yourself in the mirror and Lance is actually a really interesting guy I've gotten to know him in Austin and and I think what he's told me I think this is an interesting way to think about it's a lesson I've sort of thought about after he told to me he was saying that basically I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this but he was saying this sort of you know he's always a competitive person he's always very driven and always very good at what he did he was one of the best in the world and then he gets cancer and all of a sudden now he's in the fight right or the fight of his life and in the fight against cancer like beating cancer was living and losing to cancer was dying right and he sort of said it was kind of like a there was a switch that flipped in his brain or it was just wires that cross was like he was perfectly built to beat cancer but what he walked out from that was maybe it was some twisting and the wirings and that and that winning itself was now living and losing was dying and so it become it's it's like you know water boils at 212 and it doesn't boil at 211 and so like the tiny degrees of difference can have massive impact on things and so I think it's just you you want to know like who do you want to be where do you want to end up and then realize that as you're making these decisions that don't seem big or small just how they can end up taking you in radically different directions and and look like the whole doping in in cycling such a complicated issue and it doesn't really work well in our sort of outraged outraged culture to wrap our heads around it but I just took it's like oh okay like that's something I don't want to make that Association my life because like I I have a for me winning is is not simply like what for some people winning in as being an author selling lots of copies I want to sell copies I don't want to be the obscure author that nobody heard of because you're not having any impact I don't want to be a person that everyone says they liked but don't actually read I want to be kind of in the middle you know and like for me the goal is like do do people I respect who really get a lot out of the books right so like at the elitist levels of performance is the book working and resonating and what I've just realised the trade-off to get there is that it doesn't work as well for ordinary people like it's still enough that the books have sold quite well I make comfortable and it's been awesome but the question is like am I am I gonna write a book so simple that an NFL coach is like what kind of I can't do anything with this but I might sell 30% more copies to ordinary people not that I have a problem with ordinary people but you know I mean it's like deciding who you're doing this thing for is really important because then just the idea that a number determines success is way to buy an arien way too simple so I want to go back to what you're saying about Lance Armstrong that should is so interesting to me and so the the notion that winning itself is life yeah so I think a big reason that a lot of people fail is they don't they're not obsessed like truly truly they're not obsessed about figuring something out and I'm super curious to see what you think about this because of the the stoic bent like your new book which are we able to talk about the new course no it's alright so stillness is the key right so the the notion of being able to tap into stillness incredibly incredibly powerful yeah but a little bit of Alexander the great of the need to conquer of the need to win to be out front to kill to like like do your thing man like that that's how [ __ ] people win right Hannibal I will either find a way or make one like when you have that level of obsession and whether it's you know Lance realizing in his battle for cancer that he is just perfectly and I'm assuming he meant perfectly wired to be cancer because he won't quit yeah he's just got an ability to suffer and endure that your average human does not so that to me is [ __ ] interesting and I really feel like if people cannot cultivate that in their life they won't be able to play at the level that many of them profess to want to play now I'm not obviously not speaking for everybody not everybody wants to be at that level but I think want to play this is this is a sort of perennial question can you be world-class can you be best in the world and be anything else you know what I mean do you it does it have to ruin you as a human being I don't want to get that for but you know I don't mean like do you have to be a monster but I just mean can you be singularly focused or can you have a slightly more balanced life and what's your answer to them yeah yeah I think I think about it a lot one of the stories I tell on still misses is the story of Michael Jordan clearly probably the greatest basketball player of all time certainly for for you know a generation the greatest basketball player of all time done things no one has ever done and probably ever will be able to do again but when you watch the Michael Jordan Hall of Fame speech and you go ah this strategy is not without its costs and and it's not that Michael Jordan was it's what you realize is that his obsession was primarily in the way for Armstrong it's driven by you know winning his living for Jordan it was clearly like anger is the fuel that he used to achieve his greatness and I think what what we do when we do what we do young people and aspiring people a disservice is we go like Oh Michael Jordan successful angry you should be angry or whatever it is what we what's pushed off into the future is the cost of that and you saw that in that Hall of Fame speech George raveling told me is like what happened is he shoved all this stuff in the closet and then the closet blew open in front of the entire world and it was a wake-up call for him he said Michael Jordan's much better now having gone through a beach that that was sort of the the that was a revealing experience for him in many ways but he didn't set out he didn't go up there to come off that way and sometimes you can only do things and see yourself from a distance and go maybe I don't that's not who I want to be so it's not I'm not coming at it from a position of judging I'm just saying like that anger meant that he couldn't enjoy the crowning achievement of his life and it was clear that even as he was doing all these things it was what he was motivated to make himself like an open wound and and I guess what I'm interested in is like is that necessary and are there other forms of fuel and and I'm not I'm you know Lyndon Johnson once said that like you got to have that sort of animal instinct that like killer instinct but you got to be able to keep it on a leash right and I think so maybe that's one compromise is just that like I'm competitive I want to win but can I can I check myself so I'm not just giving myself I'm very suspicious of giving myself over to anything and maybe I leave some gains on the table but I also am head I'm also preventing catastrophic failure which so many of these people end up doing not that's not the case for Michael Jordan but we always want to be careful the survivorship bias you see Michael Jordan become the most successful basketball player of all time driven by anger what about the guy that that that blew his opportunity in college that you know blew his draft interviews that that I mean there's a there's this guy as a players his name is Indu TEB and he was drafted by the Timberwolves after kevin garnett like one of the last high school players and they said look you're really good what we learned with kevin garnett is that it takes a little bit of time for a high school player to develop we want to we want to put you in the developmental leagues for a season and he was like nope and so they cut him you know like he couldn't he was like I he had that like I'm good enough I can do it right now you can't teach me anything and he plays in Turkey right now you know what I mean like so we fruit we don't hear about guys like that because most of the stories we tell culturally are about when it works out and we lose sight of the when the obsession turns into the Lance Armstrong situation or turns into worse than that situation this this is what scares me so I want to my mission in life maybe is a better way to say it is to find an access point for the average person to develop greatness in their life yeah okay so that one requires a definition of what is greatness and I will define it there's I think a real temptation for people to say whatever is greatness for you and I will say that that is true of success I don't think it's true of greatness yeah so successes hey how do you define it and you've talked a lot about success for me as freedom I totally buy into that it's a super personal thing right what I want to do and I used to back a quest I called it mining for astronauts I really want to find the next crop of extraordinary human talent sure now for sure I'm deeply distressed by the importance of intelligence plays and all of that and I don't quite know where I settle out on that okay I kind of like biologically yeah so I I recent science seems to show I was researching this for my upcoming book research seems to suggest that 50% is hardwired and 50% is malleability okay so I'm just gonna set aside the hardwired part for now and say that they're the radical change that you can have in your life with the 50% that is malleable is so extraordinary even if all you can do is improve yourself 10x whatever that focus on that right yeah doing some 10x thing but the only way I know how to present all of this to you is through the lens of greatness of real measurable achievement that we can say we were aiming for this and neither we hit it or we did so then I get into the notion of alright obsession and what does obsession look like and how do you begin to balance this stuff and so my theory around obsession is that most of the I've just always broken it down 80/20 and what's that the Pareto distribution of principle or whatever so that's it's probably largely [ __ ] but that gets you at least in the neighborhood of reality yeah and for me in my life the thing that I have found is 80% of my energies can come from something beautiful the thing that I'm trying to accomplish the people that I want to help what I want to build what I want to create my own self-improvement all of that but there there's 20% of the time where I'm just too [ __ ] tired and I just want to stop I want to be lazy I want to give in to sort of base vice and status all of that and in those moments when I'm bone tired yeah the only thing that gets me out is the rage to win and in those moments it is a dark energy it's ugly energy but it is so [ __ ] effective and looking at science and I really need to look this up so I've been I've been bullshitting this statistic forever I have no idea what a real answer but it's something like 30 percent so they they take people to get a baseline for pain tolerance yeah they have you submerge your arm and ice you leave it in for as long as you can people pull it out they get a baseline then they take another group of people and they have them submerge their arm and they say hey right at the second where you want to pull it out I want you to get really angry yell scream cussed do whatever you need to but just see if you can leave it in longer and they do when they find the people that that put themselves in that aggressive angry state or able to leave it in something like 30 percent longer and that feels so true to me to what I know about the human condition that in in like I keep a list and it's the list of all the people that told me I would never succeed that or or more importantly the people that actively want me to fail uh-huh and they've made themselves known in various ways for my life and when it when I'm really really tired and I've run out of all the like I want to do something awesome for the world I want to help my if I want to feel some kind of way and that all Peters out and I don't have the energy anymore the thing that keeps me in the game is imagining that person celebrating my defeat and that gives me new energy and so their the the need to balance seems painfully obvious like if you allow yourself to steep in the anger and the rage too much you begin to hardwire for it it becomes the easiest emotion for you to feel it is an ugly emotion it is not fun to stay there for long periods of time but it's incredibly [ __ ] useful and so like when I think about no [ __ ] really teaching people like you said I want to give something to people that is real and when I think about that if you don't master the twenty percent yeah in addition to the eighty percent you won't achieve greatness you might achieve success but you won't achieve greatness well I think it's interesting even to say that success from greatness or not not necess you can have one and not the other ideally you want both I think that's important and should be liberating for people I guess what I'd say I have a lot of thoughts so so one to me one of the most beautiful passages and I think the most haunting to me in in meditations by marks releases he goes he's like run down the list of the angriest the most driven the most ambitious you know the the most I have something to prove to the world people of history and he goes like where are they now he was like dust or legend we're not even legend and if what he's trying to remind himself is that as powerful as the tools they may be ultimately where does it end up it ends up where we all end up you know he says Alexander the Great and his mule driver are buried in the same ground right like that's not to say one that you should be the mule driver and not Alexander the Great it's just the point is like at the end we all become equal right that's that stoic idea of memento mori aware and wringing my finger it's like I want to be tangibly reminded all the time that separate from what gets you to success success or greatness is ultimately ephemeral as the most impact you can have like not far from me in Austin there's this natural part Dinosaur National Monument you stand in a footprint left by a dinosaur 110 million years ago Andros bed it's crazy dinosaur doesn't care it's [ __ ] dead you know what I mean it doesn't mean anything like like doesn't matter what you build here how important how many people you touch that dinosaur left a greater legacy than you will leave over a long enough time span right 110 million years it's tangible it's right there on the ground but in the end most of us won't even leave that right so there's a I think what he's trying to say there is just adding some humility here right and then I think that goes to the point of if if you're relying on anger to get you over the hump to do something if you're just in the way that you're relying on adrenaline to lift a car off of a person who's stuck great not good to live your life in a adrenaline-fueled way because eventually your adrenal glands fail and then you have no ability to do that right and so the the as as a as an oomph as like an extra booster I get it and probably use it myself I think the problem is people tell themselves that's how they're doing it but they're not like like the problem with the the hey I'm driven by proving these people wrong strategy or the is or I'm gonna shove this in their faces or I'm gonna get even with them is that what I tend to find happens is so you get there you did I let's say I became an author to prove to my mom and dad that they they underestimated me well you get there and then you don't feel what you expected to feel you don't feel good right and then so instead of going like okay I'm gonna not do that anymore you go your your mind without even you even knowing begins inventing new grudges so it's like if the point is the adrenal rush to lift the car off that's a one-off thing right I totally buy into that and agree I think the problem what we have to be careful of is how insidious anger is anger is like ego it's like it's main thing is self-preservation like anger anger is not in the business of forgiveness or in letting go anger is in the business of so you let it in and now it's like but what about that other guy was laughing do you know and so it never ends right yeah that so I totally buy into that and for me it is one of the most dangerous things that you can do and I actually think about my moral obligation to the people that I'm trying to help do I have a moral obligation to lead them down a path that isn't dangerous yeah or do I have a moral obligation to lead them down a path that's effective yes and I for sure lean on the side of effectiveness so I'll alternate League myself by my ability to take them down a path of effectiveness but here's what I struggle with some people are gonna get it so I always call out like oh this is advanced class [ __ ] because I know that people are really going to struggle like hey two competing ideas you're gonna have to hold them in your head at the same time and it gets super weird and to know when to lean on one and not the other and then experience has taught me that people then oversimplify your message they cling on to one thing and so I'm like [ __ ] man when I say something's advanced class it's usually because it's dangerous yeah and that if you play with this this is to use a just brutally cliche thing this is like playing with fire right yeah the chances of you cooking your meat versus getting burned it's like I have no idea what you're gonna do with it and fire is almost like too conservative it's like you're playing with jet fuel right there's a chance it just blows you up right like it's it's vinay TRO glycerin like it's it's very fragile and I totally get I totally get that dilemma because look my first book is a book about media manipulation like the intention of the book is they don't do this or this is bad but at the same time I'm also saying this is how it works right and so you at the end of the day like you can't you can't control what people do with the message you can only deliver the message and do and this goes to what we're saying you can only you might act the message might reach more people if you didn't put the caveats if you didn't put the warnings if you if you just told people what they wanted to hear which is an excuse for anger but you gotta sit with yourself at night and you got to have your own standards and so ultimately you'd have to know that you put it out there in a way that you felt was right at the time you put it out and then what people do with it ultimately these are consenting responsible adults yeah yeah I mean one certainly hopes that they are consenting responsible adults yeah that that's me is really interesting what's something that has surprised you so you do the daily stoic yes really interesting and I love them thank you what is I wondered if people respond to ones you don't expect them to respond to or if you get nervous at all about which ones end up being really populist so the the memento mori' thing has been like of an unexpected vein because for myself to excite people what that is so memento mori is is this idea just means remember death or remember your own mortality and I think it's probably it's it's not only one of the most powerful themes in all of ancient philosophy specifically stoicism but in basically all of ancient art as well like the most beautiful painting painters used to paint pictures of skulls and dancing skeletons and/or decaying bodies and and and so this Jers imagery of the inevitable decay the entropy of life is this timeless theme that basically goes all the way up to a modern art and then it's just like weird-ass shapes and stuff we like so we stopped using art as a tool to remind us of human primal things and started using it as a status symbol you know what I mean and and so what the Stoics are so much of meditations and and and Senecas writing is is just talking about how easy it is to remand to forget that you'll die or to have the wrong attitude about diet like death one of my favorite things from Seneca he goes like do not think that you're moving towards death he was like every second that passes is death so don't think about it as like oh I'm dying in the future and I should be prepared for that think about the fact that we're dying every day that you're just why is that better it's just a reminder it's not like death is this thing in the future so I'm gonna dick around today it's that like the dollars that I spent on the couch I died one hour of my death do you know what I mean yeah and his point is that so many people think that there's life and death but there are ways of living that are essentially a form of being dead and that this is in fact how most people die but most people live there's this sort of haunting messed-up story in Seneca one of the Emperor's is sort of like walking down this row of you know condemned prisoners and the prisoners pleading for his life please don't kill me and the emperor looks at him anything and he's like you think you're alive you know because this man's horrible way of living was already death you know and and so that just I think it's so resonates with people because it's so the opposite of of how modern life is set up people die in hospitals far from our house who spends time with old people we are so segregated even by age right there's been so many medical advancements that death doesn't feel random it feels like it's something your fault they like if you eat healthy and you're a good person obviously you'll live a long time and on average you will but that doesn't mean that non-smokers don't get lung cancer all the [ __ ] time and you can't be one of those people that doesn't mean that people don't get hit with tree branches you know and die or that doesn't mean that countries don't go to war for no reason and lots of you know like life is tragic and it always has been for all of human history and so that's that's definitely I think the most powerful one and it's something I I mean I keep on my desk I mean I started wear this ring it's like a reminder but I have I bought it on on online it's a chunk of a tombstone and it's like from so I don't know how this came to be I hope nobody stole it but it's from like an old Victorian grave so a couple hundred years old and it just it it just has the word dad on it and it's so [ __ ] interesting yeah like I want to start asking people what is some weird [ __ ] that they have that that is so interesting especially knowing your views on death and being a dad recently yeah and so it was crazy this guy was a did you seek out the word dad I was looking for something like that and when I found it and I was like that's that's it that's the reminder that I want to have all the time that one really hit me I'm not sure why yeah the the word dad that it's an actual tombstone because it's it because what you're thinking about is what that person meant to other people yes yes and that this is something clearly people identified that was part of his identity and he's not here and not only is he not here I don't even [ __ ] know his name nobody does not only is nobody know his name but at some point after his death even the ground he was buried in like suffered an earthquake or somebody stole it like so it's just there's a humility in that and I think a reminder to be present right like so when my let's say I'm working at my desk and I'm writing and my son he's almost three he comes running reads think dad dad look at this you know it that's like I'm gonna get this writing done because I'm important it's important to me but I am NOT gonna ignore this thing I am gonna I'm not saying I'm gonna quit my work and not focus on it at all but I am NOT gonna ignore this moment to be this thing that's important to me do you know what I mean I do I think that gives I want to derail on that but first I want to address like the the notion of death memento do not let me forget to come back to your son come again because that's actually really [ __ ] we talked about that before it yeah but I want to talk about so I I have an evolving sense of what my relationship to death should be so for a very long time it was patently obvious to me that I was going to die but that we're living in a period where it is conceivable that we'll be able to hit escape velocity from a health perspective and that by the time we're 80 90 if we're able to live that long that they can add a year in a day to every year that we live or whatever so just live a lot longer than humans have conceived of life as being correct so I thought okay that's interesting to me because I want to live my life in such a way where my limited amount of time does not impact the size of my dreams so it wasn't a denial of death it was just kind of a cool escape valve for me to even as I got older to continue to have big that you know sort of by any stretch of the imagination would probably go on beyond me but because tomorrow was never guaranteed anyway even when I was 16 yeah that there's only that the the sort of false or maybe a better way to think of it is from an actuarial table standpoint you are probably going to live long enough for you to have that 40-year dream yeah six your dream or whatever so because of that you just you do you have these long ranging dreams and I felt like because I had long ranging dreams I was able to do some pretty extraordinary things but only because I was thinking so long-term so okay as I get older I don't want to stop having these long-term dreams so I really allowed myself to soak in the notion of hey you might live forever so keep having these big long-range dreams now hearing enough people talk about momentum or E or whatever I started thinking all right people that I really respect are telling me that I need to really think closely about the notion of dying so I thought okay let me really stop and inspect how that would impact me what does that change in terms of the way that I live or how I perceive life or whatever and so far I will say because I'm already like it is it is that the absolute core of my being to only do things that matter to love deeply to connect to the people that I love to not waste time all that like I don't know I personally don't need that reminder yeah many people do and it's very you sir for that that isn't the reminder that I need I find that it's actually it it feels important to acknowledge the inevitability currently of my death but at the same time I find that now I have to fight harder to have long-range plans and I don't like the way that feels so I it is it's it's seemingly there's a contradiction between being present and doing or planning big things but I'm not sure that there is I don't know exactly how to solve for it but let's look at the evidence right Marcus Aurelius here's the guy he's reminding himself with how ephemeral the emperors who came before him were he's reminding himself of the inevitability of death he's saying over and over again the importance of being present not being driven by anger we can't say like that it this guy didn't accomplish incredible things right like that he that because of that he just stayed in bed all day I think what he's saying is like let's do the right thing for the right reason you look at Seneca same thing talking over and over again about the death about the important of the inevitability of death the meaninglessness of posthumous fame etc and yet still sits down and writes these essays that continue to be read by millions of people 2,000 plus years after his death I think what it's about is about stripping out the low-grade anxiety or denial or whatever we have and and being able to focus everything in that that moment so when when Seneca saying like you will die today could be the last day of your life he's not saying quit what you're doing and go have an orgy or go shoot up heroin just to see what it's like he's saying live today like a complete day so like what as I worked on stillness as the key is something I was thinking about a lot was like okay I could die before this book gets published what happens to me it to someone finish it doesn't get published whatever does it sit in a drawer no that's really my concern what nor is it in my control right even if I write in a will exactly what Nabokov I think wrote very clearly like destroy my manuscripts after my death really yeah and lots of authors have done this and nobody listened you know Kafka same thing we only know about these works because they're they would be upset that we know who they are right so what do I control what I do control is did I do everything I could today right did I leap like is the book complete as of today do you know what I mean like is it as complete up until the point I was able to complete it so I go you know the first two thirds are the book that it could be as of today that's what I do does that make sense it does but I don't know that it hits me emotionally so let's try to unpack that a little bit so if you're saying like hey I'm gonna do my best and I'm gonna be present which we actually didn't address and I don't think as a self-evident realization when one thinks about their death which would be interesting to hear your thoughts around why that is your association I I begin to think about so if I were writing a book first of all I'm such a process writer that I would be the the type that's like bury the [ __ ] manuscript people would have no big they just wouldn't believe how scandalously bad my early drafts of everything are so I I wouldn't think of it in any other way than the following did I sincerely pursue making this great today yes or no that's what that I totally agreement that's what it's about he's saying like live every day as a complete day and then when you wake up tomorrow you're grateful because you get a second day it's like you don't walk up to the plate and swing at those pitches and go I'll get it next time you go like this is this is Game seven you know this is [ __ ] interesting so I so I I still struggle with anxiety but my anxiety used to be debilitating yeah and one of the things that got me out of that was to say there's no such thing as performance there's only practice yeah so literally the exact opposite of what you're saying right now there is no game seven even if it was game seven I would have to tell myself hey this is just practice and if you [ __ ] this up no worries you're gonna learn something from this here's I think this is like a life-changing assumption that I came to about philosophy I'm not I don't sure not sure exactly where I came to it but it cracked open a whole thing for me and maybe it was in the 48 laws of power people don't like but the laws contradict each other different situations call for different perspectives right they're not songs life is [ __ ] complicated life is a paradox right and so I think what you you go is like sometimes you need to be told this moment is Game seven and sometimes you go it's not even none of this even matters you go back and forth right this is so important and and so it and and also let's think about what philosophy actually is because now we have these pretentious academics who are like this is the theory of the universe you know what what Epictetus or Seneca or Marcus Aurelius is doing is answering questions in the way that like if I looked at all the queue A's you've done I'd be like Tom have your answers contradict each other that's because you're talking to Steve and over here you're talking to Susan and and then maybe if you were talking with Susan three weeks later you give a totally different answer because it was a different question or because she's changed right like different things required so if you're curing anxiety how can we zoom out and get a different perspective if you're wasting time or you're if like if you're dwelling in the past then we want to do you just do it differently to get the different perspectives that give you the tools to be able to move forward and ultimately what and I'm not trying to do this to plug my book ultimately what we're trying to do is get to a place of stillness and clarity and focus so we can be a hundred percent locked in and whatever we're doing so that's what this is all about and and sometimes you're flashing forward sometimes you're looking to history for perspective sometimes you're emptying your mind entirely it's it's just like every situations got different handles and you grab onto the right one at the right time so wow you just put words of something that I think is so incredibly important and are you able to define perspective because to me this is so the book that I am writing is essentially about how to craft and I don't like the word perspective even though it's probably the closest thing okay but the ability to craft a perspective the ability to add will change your perspective is critically important and I think that perspective is the very thing that holds people back my realization that the people in the inner cities that were working for me a quest that they had a bad perspective that was going to blunt their ability to have an extraordinary life yeah that realization is why impact Theory exists so like that whole notion of perspective being this incredibly meaningful thing this is at the center of my philosophy in my drive and all that are you able to define what a perspective is there's a German word boom welt and it basically made like a dog has a different moon well that a human I would argue that a champion at this sport versus a you know a an egotistical loser who won't get off their couch they have different ohm welts they have different experiences of reality and the ability to control that or to - it's like you know your crank and the thing on the binoculars that's what you want to be able to cultivate and when you look at what the Stokes are doing it's sometimes they're zooming way in and going like just look at the thing immediately in front of you don't extrapolate out to the hole that's what's intimidating you and then other times they're like look at the world from above and how puny even the Roman Empire is compared to other things and they're in some cases in the same same moment doing both of those and it's just like it's just realizing that how we look at the world is the the world is objective but how we look at it determines what we're gonna be able to do to it Epictetus says it's not things that upset us it's our opinions about things right and so realizing like oh okay the world is objective my opinion is what determines everything by opinion he means judgments right the other he says it's not things that upset us it's our judgment about things so it's really judge maybe judgments a better word than perspective well let's go back to the notion of so I've heard it pronounced in belt I don't know which is right I'm well in belt whatever so to define at least and I don't know if this is the official Miriam Webster definition but a big part of the need to define a new belt or to have a word for it is take birds or fish right they they actually perceive data from the world differently so let's chart can detect electrical signals and you can actually fool the shark into thinking that a metal plate is a flopping fish because you just have the plate emanate an electrical signal here and it can't help but interpret it that way but we would not notice anything so we don't know that but like isn't it interesting that we just assume sharks are looking and smelling right that's how we looking smelling in here and we just go everyone must be perceiving those senses it's not it we don't even we can't even think about how a bat perceives reality driven by radar right yes 100% and so I think something that drives my very understanding of the world all of my philosophies everything that I teach is all about we are humans experiencing life through a biological system and that biological system has its own unveil it has limitations we see only a certain spectrum of light we hear only a certain spectrum of sound like we can't experience Wi-Fi signals like there yeah there or maybe we do but on a cellular level and so we have no conscious awareness of it so it's like really getting down to okay if you know that your veld is limited and you know that you're confined in this world and that your brain actually is a region of it that says not just what is happening but how you feel about what is happening the deep limbic system right your brain actually processes things through the lens of is this good or bad right that s that you can knock out that part of the brain and cause people massive problems because it yeah once they don't have an emotion about it they can't even decide what they want for lunch are crazy so wrapping your head around okay I I am this I love the notion of the elephant in the writer okay so who is the writer I'm not even going to talk about that right now I'm just gonna say you're a writer your elephant is the biological system and once you understand what motivates that elephant to move to rage to run to hunger sex sleep whatever then you can begin to control it more effortlessly and whether that's to pursue stillness and or whether that is just understanding your own motivations and desires I think is incredibly important where I get freaked out is that people have no sense of the elephant they have no sense that the elephant is controlled by its envelop they have no sense that like okay you you do have a limited number of inputs coming in in a limited number of ways but even within that there's so much degree of like interpretation that you can take control of you can begin to decide how you see your world and once you decide how you're gonna see the world it will hardwire over time if you obsessively focus on that so that you get a neurochemical response humans move away from pain they move towards pleasure so now you're changing what gives you pleasure you're choosing or changing what gives you pain and so you're able to steer the hellephant you made a face that says you're not sure you believe that I'm just thinking yeah okay so that to me like once you want to and that then it's like okay you can begin to control wrong word you can begin to navigate more intelligently your way through life because you have some end goal yes you begin to hardwire pleasure and pain in a way that is going to move you towards that now I don't think you have complete freedom over way you can hardwire right but there's going back to that 50/50 there is a massive amount that you can shorten it be late in that to go in a direction that makes sense based on your goals yeah no I totally agree and look I think an interesting thing you realize when you have kids is you go like oh this kid is acting this way because he's really tired hmm and that it that how he's acting in this situation is not a reflection of him it's a reflection of environmental habit things like that like we didn't give we didn't go down for his nap that's why he's yelling he's upset he says that it's because he wants his toy really he wants to eat but he doesn't know that that's what he wants and then having the humility to go like we're all not only are we all basically just big children but most of us have an inner child inside of us that you know is responding with some childhood trauma that we have that that is motivating and steering a lot of like you're attracted to this person because they remind you of this other person or you repeat this pattern where you end up frustrated or upset or you know in pain because that's a trauma that's familiar to you nurse enact and so realizing that we're sort of pulled by these forces let's you I think or hopefully go oh I'm not mad I'm tired do you know what I mean or go this is I think this is what would make the world a better place go this person who I don't know who's rude to me in the supermarket is not a bad person they're just responding to one of these forces right and this also I think allows us to be more forgiving of people who are in jail people who have failed people are not successful you go oh all these things are contributing but you have the ability just like you can bring a shelter or dog we go oh you can't turn in you know you can't teach an old dog new tricks you can't teach your old dog new tricks but if you got a dog from a shelter you could teach you to sit very quickly do you know what I mean because it's like fresh for both of you and the environment has changed and the situation has changed and and that like it's just silly to write other people offer to write yourself off or to do what do they call it the attribution fallacy where we attribute because of one piece of behavior or one flash observance we attribute an entire understanding about who that person is or what they're capable of because we saw them yell at someone or we saw them be nice to someone and we don't realize that actually they're serial killer do you know what I mean like this it's all very complicated that escalated quickly yes yeah so I want to go back to what you just said the super interesting you and I think this is very true the problem isn't that you can't teach an old dog new tricks the problem is you can't teach your old dog new tricks and I assume in that analogy you're saying like it might be hard for you to change your own mind but if you could step outside or have somebody come in from the outside you could even be very easily retrained maybe yeah I think so that's why that's why when people undergo a trauma where they find out they have cancer or they move to a new city suddenly a whole bunch of things that weren't possible before become possible or I think this also explains why momentum is so valuable because it's changing suddenly you think you're capable of something that you're no more or less capable of before but now you've earned a little confidence or you see yourself differently and then suddenly everything changes that's really interesting go down that path because I think that what you're calling momentum what I think most people would refer to in that scenario is confidence yeah is one of the most important things for peep in business probably in life but I always think about it in the business context for them to be able to create that momentum one how do you create that momentum why does it matter so much well so I just hear from lots of people who want to write books right there'll be someone there like hey I'm you know a super successful CEO of X or you know I've done this for like I've been a professional athlete unless the next ten year the last ten years and I want to become you know a motivational speaker or something and they go like help me make a book and I go like why are you start with the hardest thing like right one tweet you know or one article like you know what I mean do what like it the idea that you should just for flat fast forward all the way to the end without building the process to get there like to me that's what momentum is that that's the path at what you will write a better book if you've gotten reps earlier in the thing and but people just want the outcome they don't want the process and so I I think you know it's like if you were trying to lose weight people like I got to change everything and it's probably like James clear talks about this anatomic habit like what's the smallest unit of change that you can make because you can build on that and in writing we say something similar where it's like you can edit crappy pages and turn them into good pages you cannot edit pages that don't exist you know like and and so but people are paralyzed by the idea of having something perfect or something that lives up to their standards and so they don't start yeah Seth Godin talks about like people always come to him and say oh I'm a terrible writer I could never do that he's like awesome let me see your terrible pages right and he was like they never have any and it's like they have this belief that they're not good but they're not even putting in the work to actually get better and improve yes which going back to that whole notion of perspective your perspective is going to determine what you pursue so it's what I call the only belief that matters the only belief that matters is that you think you can actually get better that you think by putting in the energy in the effort that will be rewarded with an improvement in your skill set yeah just what I say is if you don't believe you can do something you almost certainly cannot do it but just because you believe you can do something doesn't mean you can do it right and so when Churchill is saying that you know perfection can be spelled paralysis with with the word paralysis I think he's not saying that you shouldn't you shouldn't try to be really really really good so that gets a very subtle perspective shift it's like oh no I'm approaching perfection but I understand that perfection is impossible right so then you're like oh I'm getting better that now progress is possible but if you're like my end goal is to be perfect you've essentially it's it's a tricky thing because what you're really doing is giving yourself an excuse not to start because you know the thing is impossible right like if you can lose weight you cannot get taller right so if you go my goal is to grow a foot this year and then if I checked in with you a year later I'd be like what you do you'd be like nothing because it's not possible but if I said hey you know your your goal is to lose 20 pounds there's at least things you can do to get there well here's the good news you actually could get a foot taller you know about the bone breaking techniques that they use on how they have dwarfism and stuff no you didn't know about this huh this is [ __ ] crazy man so this comes down to why I always like I tell people look human potential is nearly limitless now he used to say it's limitless yeah but people just settle for spective [ __ ] dumb [ __ ] right what you want to talk perspec like if your perspective is such that you're going to waste your time pushing back on somebody who's saying that things are you know that human potential some of them it's like come on man yeah so act as if but my thing is that the very reason that I I know that the the law of averages says that some massive percentages at twenty is it thirty percent they legitimately fall below what I'll call minimum requirements they're not gonna be able to make change in their life yeah it's I think the US military won't it's like 40 percent of male populations it's like a disgust about dance won't bring on people to have lower than 83 IQ oh I was just gonna say that that is a more loaded my was responded to like the mill like 50 percent of the population does not even qualify to be in the military it's it's it's somewhat intelligent it's a very large number but it's like just being overweight like they won't take you if you weigh over a certain amount and you're like the job that was supposed to be and I'm not saying the military's the lowest but the that's the entrance military was most to be the level of ultimate equality of opportunity like they're like we'll take anyone and turn them into excellence and then they're like but these people haven't even gotten to zero you know what I mean they're at like negative 50 if you've got to get to zero for us to work our magic I didn't realize that they had weight requirements yeah you can't like you couldn't just enlist in the Marines if you weight 500 pounds actually I did sort of vaguely know that but I thought that was for morally D no David Goggins yeah so they told him hey you have to lose 100 pounds in like 4 weeks or so absurd amount of time and the fact that he does it is just right insanity yeah so going back so I used to tell people that you know your human potential is limitless yeah people would push back in the dumbest [ __ ] and the reason that I would say that is I'm I was so worried that people would assume they fell into like Oh what I want to do is the thing that can't be done or whatever and my thing is look if you act as if anything can be done you're actually better off even though I know it's not true like God is definitively a lie sure but if you act as if it were true you're much less likely to make the mistake of not trying something that actually is possible so I'll give a quick example the bone breaking yeah so you can go in and if you break the bone and then separate it like a centimeter some very small increment the bone why should grow back together then you break it again yeah it goes back together and again and again and people that have dwarfism they can actually I mean it's I don't know what the upper limit is but let's say it's it's got to be close to a foot it's pretty quickly someone just did an AMA and read it about hey I just grew a foot in the last whatever two years or something doing that technique so it's [ __ ] crazy the number of things that you can do that people just assume you can't there was another one I had this guy on oh can I remember his name he was on impact Theory Oh neuroscientists I'm blanking on his name right now I'm so sad he was so cool Israeli guy really interesting and he was doing some studying and he basically did a sort of this a technique of brain scanning that if you sort of carried it out to his logical conclusion like it could record dreams and so somebody he publishes a paper on as somebody calls him in the middle of the night and says so are you saying that you can record dreams and he is like half asleep he's [ __ ] exhausted and he ends up saying well yeah I guess you could and then the next day the headline reads neuroscientist says that you can record dreams yeah and he panics and he's like I'm gonna get kicked out of academia like everyone's gonna realize I'm a quack [ __ ] and he's trying to rescind it and it just won't go away and for a year it just runs out of control and people are saying that oh my god this is possible and he's trying to retract it nobody will let him retract it he has all this anxiety about it and he's really freaking out that it's gonna end his career and then finally it dies down and he just sort of closes the door on it and then like a year later this Japanese researcher publishes a paper about how they recorded dreams and he was like what the hell and the guy says oh because of you saying that you were already doing it I just assumed that it could be done and so I started doing it and so he says that the ultimate lesson he took away was not to say something as possible when you believe it's not possible he said the lesson I learned was not to say something is impossible yeah before you really go out and prove that it can't be done look I don't and it's so interesting because people think because my stuff and stones isn't that I'm like so much pessimistic or resigned or like the stoats are very clear on this too I mean that one of my favorite passages in Marcus Aurelius it goes if it's humanly possible assume you can do it also so it's the same thing it's just being realistic it doesn't mean you're being pessimistic necessarily it tends to be that way for a lot of people but if you have a good sense of what is actually literally possible or or you've studied history enough to see just the Magnificent things human beings are capable of doing and how regularly they disprove our assumptions about things you do have a you you don't go around to thinking like oh I'm I have very little agency you know what I mean you actually have the sense that like actually you can sort of change the world or or you know change yourself at any moment and what do you think that process looks like like how malleable do you think we really are like I think we can change our values change the wiring of our brain insurance change the neurochemical response we have I laid that our yeah like how far do you think that we can go with this I mean I would maybe I'd push back on with what you're saying is like why don't we just assume we can go an unlimited amount do you know any like people I mean people spend a lot of time trying to like disprove like whether self-help works or you know it's like is it hurting you know or whatever yeah I mean people people like I'll give you an example and you mentioned it briefly but like people are like oh let's see how inheritable intelligence is or certain races you know smarter than other races and I get from an academic perspective I'm a free speech guy so I'm like you should pursue anything you want the scientific method should take you where it takes you we should be responsible with all things but like I don't think really anything should be off-limits in terms of like what we studied Theodore Roosevelt is great line that you someone who's talking about how men were smarter than women or something and he was like even if that's true do you know how many men I meet that are much smarter than other men do you know what it is like right there there's you know what's the IQ difference between us it doesn't [ __ ] matter what Matt it doesn't how many people have you hired that that we're not bright but they wanted the job five hundred times more than the person who is five points smarter than them so it and these things if they matter at such they really only met they were they really only become statistically significant at massive scale so even like even if you're hiring at the scale of the US military or hiring at the scale of Google IQ points matter so [ __ ] little and and what are you going to do ultimately what are you gonna do with this information and so it like I get you think about it because you're you're teaching people these things but I I sometimes people go like you know is are these skills taught or or are they natural and I go I don't [ __ ] know you know what I mean but like I'm I'm gonna work under the assumption that I can get better at them because observably in my own life I've gotten better at them do you know what I mean and that's enough yeah it's this this is the like the pulsating energetic core of my what I want to do in the world and it all comes from what you just said which is people look at me the after photo and assume that this was obvious when I was young yeah it was not right and nothing about where I've ended up was a parents who might to my best friend to my father a lot like no nobody right expected that this is what I was gonna do my best friend in high school recently told me oh yeah I just assumed you were gonna marshmallow your way through life that is a direct quote that was my best friend somebody who loved and cared about me and wanted me to succeed right but just based on everything he knew about me that just wasn't the pattern that I was on and so my life has changed so radically and I feel like whoa there were a few key moments a few key people that I met that gave me a few key pieces of information and that ended up impacting the course of my entire life yeah and so out of out of excitement more than anything else quite frankly I want to give those same moments to other people and see the direction that their life goes and I look I get it not everybody's gonna do something with it but I so believe in the core like ability to grow no I think we're saying the same thing I'm I'm pushing back and like people go like I've been reading this paper and I think we live in a computer simulation right it's like cool what the [ __ ] you're gonna do with this information you still have to do what you're ever gonna do today right and so I think people can get obsessed with like you know they'll they'll they're actually doing the opposite you're looking at this studies to find what is possible and to find hope and to find room for improvement almost explain the own your own anomalous success right so you can sprinkle that Obama's as Frazee said successful people need to to not feel like they did it entirely on their own but that was part of a larger thing and then they need to find ways to sprinkle that Stardust on other people that's what you're doing that's wonderful I think some people maybe because they're either supporters of big sort of big government very patronizing government or because they're you know pessimists or nihilus they want to look to this information and use it as an excuse for for reducing human agency for telling people that the game is rigged for telling them that it doesn't matter how hard you try you don't mean like there's a way to limit potential I am so aggressively in the opposite direction so to answer your earlier question about like why I look at this or what does it matter I have so much fear that people turn off an empowering message because they can smell the [ __ ] so go back to the secret yeah the secret is actually half really powerful but it's half such utter [ __ ] right that sure and people are likely to gravitate to the part of just think about things and you're gonna get them okay now when I select guests to be on the show dude I really really live in fear of undermining my own sort of holistic message of you you really can do this yeah by having people that come on and say like if you use the word [ __ ] quantum to mean anything other than physics yeah like it makes my skin crawl because I think that you're you're going to lead people down a path of where they will miss something truly transformative because they try the easy thing first which is probably the more [ __ ] II answer yeah it doesn't work they find that it's [ __ ] they sour on the whole thing or people that they respect look at it here the fluff the [ __ ] whatever and they're like that's all garbage sure and so what I what I want to do is I really believe that there are times where you have to lie to yourself because I think people are so unable to accurately assess their abilities that they're there gonna be times where I will actively encourage you to lie to yourself because I think you're more prone to think negative [ __ ] about you okay and then on the other hand talk about holding to competing ideas in your head you have to be a [ __ ] slave to the truth you have to know what is real and so my thing is I'm trying to figure this stuff out so that if if what I really want to do is not [ __ ] I actually want to help people change their lives okay so I actually want to do that then I need to know what the [ __ ] works and what doesn't so my whole thing about 50% isn't valuable and 50% is maybe that's wrong I hope it's wrong I want it to be that a hundred percent is valuable nothing would make me happier than that truly we are blank slates I will say that my experience does not bear that out yeah the science does not seem to bear that out but I don't give a [ __ ] like if they tell me it's your ninety-nine percent just carved in stone and 1% malleable great because whatever is real I've seen it play out in my own life I don't give a [ __ ] what the percentages are I want to know oh it's one percent cool I'm just not gonna waste time bullshitting about what's not real and I'm gonna [ __ ] focus in on how to tell you how to make the most that one percent so my thing is I just need to understand and it now so that I can empower people because here's here's what I know about myself currently today as of the moment that we're recording this yeah I have a two-hour declining arc of influence if you're with me dude which is why I have I have a guy that works out of this house he's not my [ __ ] employee but he works out of this house he's an independent contractor has his own [ __ ] business he used to be in my employee and he was like dude when I'm around you I feel like and I can do anything and then when I left quest and he stayed he was like I started to lose that sense that I could accomplish anything so I was like come [ __ ] work out of the house I don't give a [ __ ] I'll even he it comes to team lunch we buy and lunch like all that [ __ ] like I I understand that if he's in the environment if he's around me or other people that are around me all the time like he will do more with his life right where we are the average of the five people we spend the most time with so getting him in that environment so I I'm not okay with that just because I recognize that I have a two hour declining arc of influence today does not mean that I'm okay that that is as good as I ever get yeah so I'm [ __ ] trying to figure out for real like what do i what do I need to say or do to burrow into somebody to be able to change and influence them in such a profound way that even if they never recognized that it's me like cuz a huge part of my theory is that I need to tell them stories yeah I need to give them movies TV shows comic books video games whatever that embed this empowering ideology in their mind and you know ends up playing itself out but that's why like I mess with the [ __ ] where's you wanted me to remind you to go back to the thing I was saying about my son interrupted me dude you're my hero thank you for that yeah so I think that there's a flip side to that coin which is and you were saying it but now I want to talk about how it actually plays out in real life okay that what you're doing is important enough to keep doing and if your son which he will by the way if you continue to let him interrupt you interrupt you he's gonna do it and do it do it how do you know where to draw the line I would say it's most of the time it's like so if the question is like how do you how do you sort of balance an obsession with your work and the desire to be good and present for your family yes well first off you design a life in which these things are in conflict as rarely as possible so I don't rarely work at my house when it's possible for him to interrupt at me right so so I'm I'm not going to put myself in a position where these two things are conflicting gonna have to choose I'm gonna take him to daycare go to my office and I'm gonna sit there uninterrupted for a very extended period of time and then when I'm done I'm gonna be done right that's how you mostly want it I'm not necessarily referring to like some like I'm finishing the conclusion of a new book and I've built a chaotic life where interruptions can intervene at any time it's more like okay I'm responding to this email from this person it is important I'm going to do it but in ten years or 50 years or five minutes what I have a little distance from it which one of those things do I value more this total stranger who sent me an unsolicited thing that I'm now having to bat back out or is it the fact that my son wanted to show me how his train works do you know what I mean and what ultimately fills me with more happiness what ultimately provides that sort of stillness or contentment that allows me to go back to my actual work and perform at a better level do you know what I mean and so that's what I'm saying I'm just saying it's like the point is when you're not a great Russ Roberts is one of my favorite writers is his brilliant economist he wrote this book how Adam Smith can change your life he did like a spin on Jordan Peterson's 12 rules for life he just listed his roles and one of his rules is he's like always take her child by the hand when they offer it meaning if your child reaches out to you like your kid says I want to go to the park and you're saying but I was going to do this other less important thing and said you you take if they you you take their hand when they offer the hand because it's so rare you don't get that much time it's it's I think the point is this like now it's not put them first above all things but it's don't actively reject opportunities for connection because at the end of your life those are the things that really matter to you there there's a great writer forgetting his name he want a bunch of pure surprises but he basically said it when he had a when he and I know you disagree with this because we talked about it but I think would be interesting we discussed he said when he when he wrote his first book it was the sort of toast of town and he was at a party you know very well-known writer came up to him and said whatever you do don't have kids every kid you have the book you won't write and he said he that really hit me and I struggled as a longtime and then he's like as I sit here now writing this book which was a book about fatherhood looking at my three children he goes like I would take that trade was a thousand percent worth it I think they're in less conflict than people think but I I would definitely like I'm proud of all my books I tend to write I intend to write many more books but like my I have three equal priorities in my life my drop my my priority is to write many books to stay married and liked it so to be a good husband and to be a good father those are my three things I think they're they're they're not it's not one is higher than the other it's they're all three at the top and I think they're the better husband I am the better head space I am in as a writer the more supported I am as a writer the better father I am the more I feel good about myself the the more contented I feel the more I learn about the human experience you know what I mean they're all feed into each other and I just think it's this I think it's a unfortunate that we've come to in turn not saying everyone should have kids because not everyone should have kids but I'm saying it's very sad that we think that greatness is the same as entering the priesthood which means you have to forsake all other worldly things which by the way when you really look at the history of religion is like I'm that's not even in the Bible it's not Jesus was like don't don't get married you know there's even there's even pretty strong evidence this isn't like da Vinci Code so there are other takes on the Bible that Jesus was married you know I did is did his was it a virgin birth no his mom like had sex with a guy like you know the the point I can feel the hate mail yeah the the point the point is we relationships are not at odds with serenity with peace with greatness to me and I think Eastern students of Eastern religion either don't know this or they gloss right over it the saddest part of Buddhist trajectory is when he walks out on his wife and child to pursue enlightenment I to me that is antithetical to enlightenment is is a inherently a contradiction that's interesting it's interesting that you think that I would disagree with any of that I don't think I disagree with a single word you said other than that I'm I when I look at my own life yes I may just I guess fall easily into the campus not everybody should have kids and I think when people hear that sentiment they think oh you would be a bad father I think I would be an extraordinary father yeah I just don't have more interest in that than I have in continuing to live the life that I'm living now so when I heard about a change right you don't know for sure and trust me I've had in the back of my mind out well if I you know wanted to adopt or something I do worry that like at some point you're just too old for it to be interesting certainly interesting for the kid where there just be such a gulf between where you're at physically that you wouldn't build a play properly anyway that that's a whole nother thing but if time were infinite there's no question I would have children sure because then there would be no need to choose but in every day I'm already at the point where there are more things that I'm passionate about that I want to do and I think that and and don't have time to do and then I think that kids are one of the most sort of beautifully prepackaged ways to get fulfillment that a human being will ever find and since I think that ultimately fulfillment is the only thing that matters for most people it is probably the no-brainer solution to hey you're not fulfilled in any area of your life have a thright a thriving relationship with your spouse and child right so the thriving part is the key because so many people then just carry whatever dysfunction they have and the rest of their life they carried over to their marriage and their child but I think that the reason cuz here here's my thing I could steal man having kids so well that you would believe I had kids yeah like I could do it in a poetic form where you'd be like [ __ ] this guy really gets it yeah partly because for eight years I was essentially a surrogate father to this kid that I Big Brother four yeah and to the point where when he got removed from his family because he's being abused by his single mother and I became the guardian to help me in the court system like I was yeah in this [ __ ] kid's life so like I get yeah and I get it to the point of also knowing that there are parts of it that are not fun yeah and so just sort of weighing everything on balance it's like yeah it's probably nothing I'd I think the first time we met you told me I shouldn't have kids not you said don't have kids you said hey why you said something the equivalent of like think of the sacrifice that going to kids but that's what I meant when I thought you you might disagree here and I don't remember what I said but if if I know myself well enough it would have been something along the lines of the way you think there's something and I say this every time we get together so hopefully people see the consistency there's something about the way you think I find intoxicating you were one of my favorite authors there's there's a way that you step through things logically also you're just a [ __ ] good writer like the way you have with a sentence is so awesome I love it the most so selfishly here if all you did if I could lock you in a room and make you write the way that you write with the depth of understanding human condition all that which of course would diminish but like that is almost certainly sort of tongue-in-cheek my advice and look I've done I've got two kids have been two and a half book since they're born so I'm as far as I know no fault I'm still doing well still doing it yeah doing very well yeah why does still in this matter stillness what is it how stillness matters in two in two respects one when you think about your best moments of your life they were not accomplishments they were moments when you were locked in to and transcendent experience another person flow of a brilliant piece of creativity whatever it is right the moments we think about our fondest memories are not moments when we were doing doing doing they are almost always the absence of doing it's I remember when I was standing there on this Beach I remember when we used to live here you know I like those walks that I used to go on you know that there are moments like that I moments when I had the idea for for this when I was at the gym and I was you know things like that so those are the wonderful moments it cut they are stillness embody that come from stillness yet they are rare why would such a why would we make such a wonderful thing rare if it doesn't need to be the second thing I would go the best work of your life did not come from frantic busyness right so when I think of Kennedy and the Cuban Missile Crisis when I think of a team when I think of the the Patriots down 28 to 3 in the Superbowl you know when you think of moments where people did things that we did not think was possible in an amount of time we didn't think was possible usually what they've done is they have slowed things down they have accessed some deeper part of themselves that they don't normally have access to they they were a hundred percent there that's to me what stillness is and and so I wanted to write a book about how do we cultivate it and the interesting thing is stillness does not come from outside sources so it's already ours so it's much more about unlocking something we have than it is about going getting something we don't have interesting experientially that doesn't listen I know that that is true but it doesn't feel true so for somebody that's first coming to that idea that this stillness is already within them because they're not gonna start thinking about stillness until the chaos is long been raging alright so [ __ ] starts happening to you when you're a little kid and your mind never shuts off and so and then if you have any level of ambition like they're just the the still moments a seems super rare so they they don't feel ever present and a mere uncovering of something and then I'll stop but I mean think about what stillness is it's it's it's about removing so you can't you can't add by subtraction so it must already be there do you know I'm not saying it's not deeply covered up I'm not saying it's locked deep inside the one of the reasons they call it a key is they were unlocking something it's there you know there's a Zen saying you are seeking a knocks but you are already on it like you know the idea of what you're riding the elephant you're looking for the elephant it's underneath you you already got it and so so it's it's I think it's primarily about removing things that's not to say that going for a walk can't induce stillness or that journaling can't induce stillness or that you know going to therapy you can't do it that's not say you can't work on it but it's primarily I don't think it's something that's in a way it's the most equal thing there is it's the thing we all have the potential to have it's not a thing that only rich people have that only men have whatever it is it's it's just there in inherent in our biology and what I think so interesting about this idea of stillness is like it's one of the few things that appear in all the ancient schools and religions you know the Buddhists have a word for it the confute Confucius had a word for it Marcus Aurelius talks about it Jesus talks about it st. Augustine talks about it like everyone talks about stillness is that that thing we know it when we see it the problem is we don't see it hmm so if you had to define exactly what stillness is that would be useful and then what's your favorite story in the book that illustrates this the Cuban Missile Crisis was great yeah I mean that would I think I can illustrate what stillness is through that story so you look at Kennedy what goes to bed and wakes up and they're like hey you know that Cold War thing happening Russia is currently building nuclear missiles in Cuba 90 miles from American shores and it's the worst news that probably that any American president has ever gotten right and so he rushes to the you know to meet with his advisors you calls all the leaders in the of the armed forces what do we do and ago obviously we have to blow Cuba off the map this is the nuclear war we feared it's here let's go and and Kennedy just like a few months before had experienced a similar thing where basically it was or wasn't told about and then kind of gave a green light to the Bay of Pigs invasion in Cuba and they said look we got invaded Cuba through this like secret means it's gonna be a lock you know let's do it he green lights it he doesn't really know what he's doing they sort of bully him into it it goes horribly then they bully him into escalating it's like one of the most embarrassing moments of American history and so you would think he would go yep let's do it time is of the essence the world but Kennedy goes if we bomb Cuba what do they do like what is Russia do in response and and the the generals were like what they like literally never thought about it you know what I mean like they were just like no no no this is you bomb it then you invade and then hopefully we're still alive like that was the extent and what Kennedy's greatness was in and he was a flawed man in many ways probably would not have survived the me to hear about any but but what Kennedy says there is is he goes no we are gonna think this through and we're gonna find out a way to de-escalate this situation because he's like he's like I'm not worried about I'm not even just worried about what they're gonna do I'm worried about the ninth step he's like because none of us will be around it'll go and the world will be gone and he had this expression he said we use time as a tool not as a couch meaning you don't just sit back and do nothing like that you use time as your advantage and what he kept saying over and over again like he knew Khrushchev personally he'd just been in the room with Khrushchev and Khrushchev had basically beat the [ __ ] out of him Khrushchev had bullied him he thought Kennedy was week he'd mocked him she'd already embarrassed him if they have pigs right and and so Kennedy could have been like this my chance I'm gonna get revenge Kennedy just goes like once Khrushchev thinkin why did he do this what did he hope would happen what's success to him in this situation and it kept asking these questions and then he'd go for a swim in the White House then you go for a walk in the in the in the White House Rose Garden then he'd write he we have the notes that he took as you got these briefings and he would write things like he'd be like consensus consensus consensus he's like missiles missiles missiles he's just right he's just thinking it through there's a picture of a sailboat that he drew he's doodling a sailboat he's trying to calm himself down and so he works through this and basically he realizes that this isn't Khrushchev thinking he's the strong part it's an act of weakness Khrushchev things like it's not going so well for for for for communism if we can humiliate the Americans this will be good for it he think he thought he could steal one and and so Kennedy goes does he not understand how many more missiles we have like does he not understand who I am this is and he realizes that Khrushchev has overreached that he Khrushchev had rushed into this he had not thought about it so he's like we got to give these guys some time to think about this we got to show them that they made a mistake and give them the opportunity to back out of it so they end up putting a military blockade around Cuba they don't attack you but they go nothing's coming in or out of Cuba this is not happening they go to the UN they do some sort of political theater that is embarrassing to the to the Soviets they they challenge the Soviet ambassador in private not in public because they want them to be able to back down even it was Kennedy even calls it a quarantine and not a blockade because a blockade sounds more aggressive and there is a moment where like American ships and a Soviet submarine are like locked they say it they were like nuclear powers were eyeball-to-eyeball the fate of humanity this you know all none of us might be here right and and Kennedy's like Kennedy just had a sense that he had gotten it that is tense as they were they were actually heading towards the escalation and then boom they get like at I got a telex or whatever how they communicated back then from Khrushchev and Khrushchev Slyke I think we're pulling on a rope here and we're tying the knot tighter and eventually that nots got to be cut and Kennedy's like yeah you think like with a [ __ ] you know but but what Kennedy had managed to do was through patience through empathy through wisdom through an understanding of history through a lack of self righteousness and ego through a mastering of his emotions had managed to take a situation that was on the brink of catastrophic escalation deescalate it but basically first not make it worse then deescalate it and then when he starts talking to the Soviets he realizes like okay they're gonna back down because they know this is that they know they they thought they were calling a bluff and I proved this on a bluff and he goes and then I'm gonna tell them in private hey if you get once you back down here I will remove missiles we have in Turkey that may have actually pushed you to do this in the first place and let's solve this situation more or less permanently as well so so when I say you know stillness when you see it like I don't know if I can give you a one sentence definition of stillness but to me that story is stillness and the world would be a better place if more leaders had that stillness I think you would be a better boss if you had it I think I would be a better writer if I had it I think I'd be better in traffic if I had join me in like Oh everything we do is better for that stillness because its clarity its self-control its purpose you know it's all the things that we know we want in life are made possible by having that that that accessing that force what I love is that you're defining it more than just because I think a key part of it and if you would ask me to define it I would have said the the mastery of your emotions yeah but in that story in the way that you ultimately define in the book it's it's clearly a lot more than just having control of your emotions which is pretty interesting and I actually tell that sort like so I split the book up I say there's like there's mental stillness there's sort of emotional spiritual stillness and there's physical stillness I actually put the Missile Crisis primarily in the mental stillness to me this is a problem he solved logically and rationally ironically Kennedy is a guy who's like in the Cuban Missile Crisis has one of his like sort of goons who like pick up a girl from a nearby college that he has sex with in a hotel room you know I mean like Kennedy was emotionally like when I hear that you don't go oh that guy that's stillness you think that's like spiritual emptiness and awfulness right like he's he thinks the world might be ending and he's not with his family and he's not at work he's getting his rocks off you know in a creepy way you know less but the point is like I think you got to attack stillness from these three different fronts but it's it's like can you have the stillness to like actually think a problem all the way through do you have the stillness to master your emotions and then do you have habits and practices and you understand your physical body well enough to have stillness there as well yeah it's interesting seeing the way that you broke down the book into those one thing that I found interesting about the this particular story is that he once at all de-escalates he actually ends up thanking the gardener at the Rose Garden for her role in because he just kept going for walks yeah and I thought that was interesting because obviously well not obviously movement being outside like things that have a very calming at least effect on the mind I think is pretty interesting yeah I mean mr. Rodgers would talk about this is like when I'm angry I go swim laps you know what I mean it's like he's not saying I'm not angry he's not denying that he has anger he's a human being we just like look I'd rather swim faster and then come back and not yell at the person but talk to them nicely you know like and so I just loved the idea that I owe something like mr. Rogers he's not just born this way like he made that that is a character that he lived his whole life in do you know what I mean you know and and and so yeah the stillness isn't this even if it's something we possess naturally it does not occur naturally we have to cultivate it just in the way that you cultivate greatness or excellent sir or I don't know your singing voice right so how do we cultivate stillness well I think it's a it's a it's a variety of things I mean it on the one hand it might be like what inputs you know do you limit inputs do you have mentors you know who are your models that you're basing your life on you know it might be hey I need to go I got an anger problem from the childhood that I have so I'm going to go to therapy and work on that or it might be the sense that like I've got that I wrongly have conflated in my mind you know success and money and so now money has this power over me in a way that it shouldn't or it might be like look like you don't have any stillness because you eat terribly and you don't sleep and you know you you never exercise you know like the there I don't think there's not one thing you do but you have to you have to get it from all these different things and it they cultivate each other in the way that like journaling is a physical act that calms the mind and the emotions and the more you work through your emotions in your journal the more logical and rational you can be mmm why'd you write a book on still in this way why that book why now I mean I think one the short answer is you write whatever you're interested in if you're right like we were saying at the beginning you you write where your heart goes it's just it's just a pattern I was seeing you know something I wanted more of in my own life and it was something I was seeing across all these different schools when I think about an egotistical person this is the previous book in the series to see goes the enemy what what is the what do they all have in common they're frantic they're miserable they're roiled by these sort of this internal angst and and so just and and what do I think about what what are the people and an obstacle to people who overcame these incredible things that endured adversity that none of us none of us most normal people couldn't get through what what do they have on the other side of that they have this sort of incredible stillness I think of Ulysses Grant he's sitting in this room you know in a room like this you know posing for a photograph and somebody steps on a skylight above him and the glass comes pouring down and he just keeps talking you know what I mean like because he's exposed himself to like battle enough times he's mastered that his mental and emotional sort of hurt he's that's a guy with nerve control and stillness and nerve control I think they're part of the same equation yeah that the ability to get control of your biological systems I think is is really important and really in my life it's been very difficult to do and worse it was easy everyone would do it and it wouldn't be that rare very very fair you do I remember right are you have you done or are you doing therapy yeah I go to therapy to what end I think like I have a chapter in the book about the inner child like most though I think the reason most of us are afraid of success or incapable of having good relationships or feel angry all the time or take things personally it is not us it's like a seven-year-old inside of us or it's whatever age that we experienced some trauma or were deprived of something that you know slightly healthier childhood would have would have provided for us and so you know what how how oh I just urge people to think and don't I'm not a doctor so I don't want to give advice but like you can you can read about this there's great writers you've talked about it but just like think about like think about that thing that gets you really angry or think about that thing that makes you really sad or think about that thing that really makes you feel like a piece of [ __ ] and and go like how old is that feeling now how old is it in your life but like what age would you ascribe to that feeling like so I have a lot of you mean but I have like a lot of feelings where it's like I'm I'm a 14 year old boy that like people aren't appreciating or seeing or loving and and then when I think back to my own childhood it makes total sense like I don't wanna get too much into it but you get what I'm saying it's like oh okay it's because there is an unloved fourteen-year-old inside of me actually has nothing to do with these things I'm not saying these outside situations aren't problematic I should resolve them like Judd Apatow talks about realizing that the movie studio execs who were giving him notes on his movies it he had to realize they weren't his parents like these weren't his parents who were getting a divorce telling him what he telling him contradictory things about what he's allowed to do or not that these are people who are trying to make the movie better they might be wrong right the notes might be utterly stupid he might not be under no obligation to do them but he doesn't need to it doesn't need to spike his heart rate and doesn't need to go you can't tell me what to do and like it doesn't need to make him miserable because it's just objective notes from the people who paid for the movie it's not [ __ ] you dad you know and that's all that like daddy daddy look at me [ __ ] you dad or like you're not my mom you know like that energy we all have and it pops out and less than productive ways in our lives so if you're gonna go to therapy that would be a thing to work on and if you were gonna package up therapy for people so they couldn't go you're gonna go on all of our behalf what is it what are the mechanisms that are useful is it just talking is it that your therapist has particular insights I mean I think a good therapist it depends on different schools that we're training but it's a mix of talking and then it's it's like sometimes like in an inner child work you sit and you go your that's an empty chair and you were talking to and for you like not to psychoanalyze because I'm not qualified again but you know maybe you're talking to the the the eight year old fat Tom who you know I don't you don't you're talking to that kid and you're telling him what your parents should have told him or what a teacher should have told him so he felt good and loved and felt empowered and that you might be able to tell him the things that you didn't learn it till much later down the road it's interesting when you were saying that the first thing that popped in my mind was not something cuz I definitely felt loved certainly by my mother who all always made sure that I felt that no matter what was going on the thing I wish somebody had done for me was push me a bit so when you were saying like oh you did that and you didn't feel loved I was actually thinking about like the time the soccer ball hit me in the leg cuz Tacomas [ __ ] cold and you play soccer largely in the winter and it left the imprint of the ball on my leg and it was it's [ __ ] hurt and I was so whiny and that I just walked off the field yeah and what I wish is that somebody in an effective manner not just to be mean to me but that somebody had said toughen up basically that that being tough is valuable right that's what I wish somebody had conveyed to me not in the you know don't be a wuss not that's not what I'm looking for what I'm looking for is somebody to explain to me that a suffering can be very useful be that being tough certainly is useful and you explained to me what it has become arguably the most important lesson I've learned in my life which is that you can get tougher and it's important to do so oh I totally agree and and maybe because it's supposed to be it might be like why didn't they do that right like do they not think you were worth it right were they preoccupied by other things where they focused on a sibling you know like wide and and did that man maybe maybe the reason that standing out to you is that there are lots of similar situations where you really needed someone to tell you something I'm not super complicated thing that should have been obvious and instead of doing that they just let you do whatever because they you know maybe they had low expectations for you or maybe they they they couldn't talk to you without arguing or you know and so I'm sure it's a little bit deeper than just like oh why didn't you tell me to be tough yeah like what but it's more like why didn't you like not you know what I mean like why didn't you think that I because I have a little bit of that - it's like why didn't you why didn't you push me and it's like oh I don't think you pushed me because you didn't think I was capable of it and that's very sad because if your parents aren't rooting for you who's rooting for you you know what I mean and and what kind of effect does that have on a person because you look around and the other parents that the same thing happened to another kid and the dad did rush over and he reassured the kid and he pushed him to do it and now you know and and and and how would that have changed the course of your life etc I absolutely despise how important childhood is for people like the amount that it influences people does not freak you out as a parent like yeah god they're the the way that we take in information as a child is so terrifying and the knock-on effect that you can see even in rats have you seen those studies where if you take a rat and you even remove it from its mother let's say it has a mother that's a low it shows low affection so it doesn't lick very often and that rat will grow up anxious and fearful just based on how much the mom licked the rat so they thought okay well maybe it's just genetic maybe you know mothers that have that or actually passing on something that just makes you anxious and fearful so they took low licking rat pups or moms that were low licking and gave them to mothers that were high licking and the rats grow up to be fine so it's like absolutely distressing to me where's how much our childhood imprints on us and ends up influencing a lot of the brain wiring that we have and our propensity to react in certain ways oh yeah it is it is but then you then you also you go look at what that you what what the human experience has been able to triumph over oh I'm just saying like as somebody who wants to believe that right now today hey you can become whoever you want I when I was hearing you talk about having a conversation with the fourteen-year-old you and an empty chair I was like oh my god the amount of work yeah like to unwind some of the stuff is and that is true but also we're talking about optimizing at the margins do you know I mean I'm not sitting like my frustration with how I was raised has not prevented me from being very successful from rising to the top my field it's being in a happy marriage to having my own kids so it's more like yeah isn't it also annoying like how much like microscopic changes our diet can affect performance or or that even like I just I just I'm in LA because I spoke to the Los Angeles Rams like why do that why do NFL coaches and players need to be inspired like you would you know what I mean like you'd think at that level with all the money all the energy all of all the all that they've been working towards it their whole life all this and they still need tiny you know bits it so I think I think the good news is like basically anyone no matter what you've gone through think about the people that lived through the Holocaust or lived through slavery or you know extreme disabilities look at what they've been able to accomplish again this goes this Marcus quote like if it's humanly possible you can do it almost certainly whatever you and I have gone through whatever anyone has gone through somebody has gone through worse and managed to triumph over it so she'd take encouragement from that and then we can go that being said so so basically what you went through does not excuse or exempts you or keep you out of the race towards greatness then you're going towards greatness you want to get there you're gonna have to eventually look under the hood and fine-tune some things yes I agree with everything you said the only thing that that gives me unease and continued turmoil is some people seem so stuck and I'll put it this way there are people in my life who I love very much who are like when you take the and this quote actually apparently isn't Mother Teresa but is so often attributed to her I was just give her the credit no one will act for the many but people will act for the one so it's like for all the things that I do you know trying to impact people at scale I come back to the people I'm closest to that I love that oh I'm trying to like find the way to help them right okay you write a book for one person correct because it's the only thing you can really wrap your hands around right and I can't figure out some of the people that I'm closest to I can't figure out how to help them past whatever happened to them in their childhood that has them stuck they gave them a frame of reference that is empowering that not only a frame of reference but like a neurochemical reward system where they just continue to make decisions that do not serve them and now how the [ __ ] do you get them past that yeah and maybe it's uh maybe it's not something you control and it's not gonna it's gonna unlock itself do you know I like not saying it's not no no I want some people are never going to get along know what I'm saying is like there's a Zen expression when the student is ready the teacher appears yes and maybe you're not the teacher or you're not the teacher at this moment you know what I mean it may be that that a hurricane's gotta move the boulder a little bit and then it's possible to be pushed by by humans you know yeah I don't think you're bothered by that reality because I totally acquiesce to the truth of that yes but it doesn't seem to bother you at quite the level that it bothers me yeah but but look at the core of stoicism is ultimately like nothing you focus on yourself at the expense of other people but you ultimately go it's not in my control right now it's not on my control right now being upset about it doesn't do anything being sad about it doesn't do anything you know what I mean like it's oh I'm not being blase but but but I am being I am I'd rather move on than despair yeah it's one of those where that is the absolute right answer and yet I find that some of what drives me is probably what is an artificial carrot it is almost certainly true that some people I'm never going to be able to impact and I accept the truth of that and yet being inspired to try to find a way to take the hardest case of people that I care about and say I want to find a way cuz if I can impact this sort of at the extreme hard case then all the people that are in the middle then I will have been able to help well look you probably like this quote I don't know the beginning but it basically the idea is like all progress depends on the irrational man right the person who believes they can pull the impossible thing off it's ultimately what does it that doesn't mean that it's great to be the irrational man you know that doesn't mean it's fun to be the irrational man it doesn't necessarily mean that we to be the irrational man do you know what I'm saying I do and I think we do I think Oh God I don't know if this is me now trying to put my value system onto other people but I really think that being the irrational man is the only right answer and that Oh God yeah you have to have a whole host the the all all of my reactions right now are the reason that I'm writing a book is because when I go to give somebody a an Instagram answer to a question I'm always like I'm lying to them because I'm oversimplifying us and that the reality is so [ __ ] complicated that the only way to capture this is is to really write the whole book so when I think about like okay being the irrational man allowing yourself to believe that anything is possible so you have beliefs beliefs are part of the formula but values are part of the formula Y values because values are where you ultimately hardwired into yourself to get a neurochemical response from pursuing the things because pursuit is all you have you may never achieve it so if the pursuit isn't fun if it isn't deeply fulfilling there's no reason to pursue it but as somebody who lunch lavished in my emotional weakness and thought there was no problem with it and saw myself as solely airy which I'm assuming as a reference you will get and I lived there and almost I found identity in it for sure in being like I'm just smart enough to realize how much smarter other people are and like I I thought that there was something interesting to that and then entirely changed my value system no longer allowed myself to worship at the altar of weakness began to hold myself to a different standard but not so I could sell flagellate myself I don't I don't beat myself up when I'm weak about something I'm like hey I'm gonna push myself because I know the depths of fulfillment of sin your pursuit it doesn't matter whether I actually accomplished it just am I really really trying this or am I just giving rhetoric to the fact that I'm trying and as long as I know that I'm really really trying it's very interesting so I believe that so you've got the beliefs you've got values that's part of it but then there's even like habits routines the default Network of the brain like rewiring yourself so that you actually get a neurochemical response for pursuing things that are difficult so for instance I [ __ ] ate cold showers but I do them I took ones because they make me feel better about would you say I took one this morning you and I both yeah so I get were saying writing a book is like on the scale of a rational man thinks writing a book to help people is like the lowest hello you know what I mean it like but trying to individually save every person probably you know and I just I guess what I'm saying is like look I'm glad I live in a world of Elon Musk's I don't want to be that Elon Musk I want to be a different version of Elon Musk you know and you know I must have bad example it's like look we are benefi benefit from the horrible murderous conquerors who who settled this country right that doesn't mean that what they did was great you know that doesn't mean I would go for millions of Indians but like I've certainly benefit from it so the the history and society to progress depends on the irrational man in that sense but you got to decide who you're gonna be what do you hope people take away from stillness is the key I hope they think better I think they find I think they they improve their soul and then I hope they improve their spirit and body like I I hope they I hope it's sort of a holistic way to em to improve their life because I don't think they're I don't think greatness is really greatness if it comes at the expense of misery or happiness or your ability to even recognize that you've achieved greatness right like Billie Jean King the tennis greats she was saying like look like the relentless desire to improve and to never be satisfied with your performance is what makes a champion but it also prevents it a champion from realizing or even enjoying or even realizing that they are a champion Jin I mean and so to me greatness true true greatness is to have done it maybe not with the dark energy right to have accomplished it and be happy to have greatness and success maybe to bring out back to where we were earlier and and that's what I'm hoping to get people like I would just maybe it's a fantasy of mine but I would just love the idea that like like I would love Hemingway who doesn't kill himself at the end who basically doesn't abused women who is a good father I don't I don't see why the work and the monster have to exist simultaneously and and so ultimately I think it's a book about how do you how do you get the things you want in a better way man I think that's a profoundly cool thing to want and I like the way that you explain it that the greatness and the monster don't have to coexist there's something interesting about Kanye West though yeah when I look at that and look I don't know the guy at all so this is me cobbling together things from the outside but hearing some of the things that he said about like taking medicine I don't know what word used for it to try to regulate his emotions and everything then made him numb and and made it impossible for him to create sure there is something to that and I don't believe in the tortured genius I certainly won I have achieved success without torture or genius yeah so that does it yeah you know that doesn't seem like prerequisites right but it there it's a fine line to walk between you can see how the the madness when it comes in just the right way and I use that I guess in a colloquial way I don't mean literal madness but the like where you're you're sort of existing outside of the confines of the way that other people think and limit themselves in ways that they don't even realize they're limiting themselves right yeah no I agree and look maybe Connie is a better example than Elon Musk I'm glad to live in a world of Kanye I'm glad I don't live in Kanye's worlds yeah so you don't I mean I don't want to live in his head you know look Donald Trump being Donald Trump made him president would you trade places with him get not a political thing I'm saying would you live in Donald Trump's brain if it meant you got to be President I almost no one would take that trade and so it's like how but right under Kanye West there's all sorts of other musicians who are not and that that's why I think the argument it's so hard I guess we're asking like what scales you know because okay sure we're for Kanye but like I mean most musicians don't have that problem you know what I mean like most musicians are able to be super creative and create brilliant things and and and they don't have to storm the stage of the Grammys and you know they don't have to say these things so it I guess why is it on us to prove that that that like you know maybe it's on him to prove that actually we can't have one without the other you know it's interesting to me is like I think maybe a slightly different question is the right question which is how do you step outside of the perspective that the world has to see things in you whether it's Elon Musk who I think is extraordinarily good at that of saying like so many people would say well I can't be a rocket scientist because I didn't go to engineering school and he's like but you can read the books and as long as you can understand it and yeah and you recognize sort of the the laws of physics and you adhere to them like you know as long as it doesn't violate the laws of physics yeah I can figure it out or Kanye with music you know the same thing or jay-z with what he's done with both business and music of just being able to step outside you know we're all we're constantly constructing our vision of the world and this is this is one of my own personal obsessions in fact this is largely what was driving my desire to do this show is like I want to get farther and farther outside of the way that other people view the world so that I can do something new and different because the way that everybody is seeing things the way that I've been seeing things like in fact this will be the easiest way to sum this up my current skill set has already taken me as far as it's going to take me and said another way my current perspective is already taking me as far as it's gonna take me so now how do I begin to to knock myself askew and so often people need some sort of life-changing event becoming apparent the death of a loved one like write something that that allows them the freedom of I'm no longer beholden to the way that that people see me or or I'm no longer beholding to their framework of the world and and bear with me one more second so I just had Molly bloom on impact Theory do you know who Molly Blair yeah yeah well I guess technically not the poker player but she she built the game and she was talking about how when when she got arrested and there were 17 federal agents machine guns on her her flash lights in her face and she was like there was so much freedom in I had failed in front of the entire world and so all of the the things that had been just closing in on me for years the need to succeed the need to prove people wrong then because her brothers I guess are both prodigies one was a two-time Olympic medalist I think and then played in the NFL and her another brother yet her other brother is a harvard-trained cardiothoracic surgeon and so she just felt invisible and her family growing up and so her child [ __ ] yeah exactly and so she was like all the sudden like the that frame of reference she didn't use those words but that frame of reference that she had built that said she had to do and be all of these sayings it shattered into a million pieces and rather being sort of the lowest of the low moments or I'm sure it was briefly but she said then it was like it was freedom yeah and what I want to get to is okay I I really have no interest in being a tortured genius like so if you said to me hey you can have genius but it comes at the expense of torture I would say no no no I'm just fine like because I know fulfillment at the end of the day is is really the only thing that matters and hopefully that that I'm always shocked at how unselfish that feeling profoundly and unshakably good yeah nothing is forever even fulfillment is is it sort of ebbs and flows but having that sort of anti fragile like I do hard things I contribute to this world I'm constantly trying to improve I can feel that my egos not built around anything fragile is not built around being good or better or smart or anything like that it's you know learning and helping and all of those things that you know that that is all that matters so that would be a fantastic definition of stillness interesting that's what equanimity means the inability to to be shaken the stoic word for it is apatheia when you're not jerked around by any of these external things the the Epicureans called it ataraxia like all that that's what enlightenment is that's what nirvana is right that like you get there that and and and so I think that's what that's what I'm saying so we think stillness is this sort of this absence this weakness this it's laying back I think it's it's the opposite of that it's like really getting in there and like what you're saying with Molly I think it's we all have those moments I think ideally we're looking at scalable strategy we're like okay how can we get that flash of insight from a source other than 17 federal agents because you've been running you know what I mean because like it's really about what happens next that's important so can we get can we get there from reading a book can we get there from therapy can we get there from a mentor can we get there from maybe it's psychedelics can we get there from doing work mm-hmm you know do we have to blow up or less I'm very anti psychedelics really yes we talked about this no tell me more I have to buy to flip answers or I haven't heard anyone tell me anything from psychedelics that I haven't seen in basically every rudimentary philosophical texts you know and - I would like to know from any point in human history where a magical drug or pill was able to fix any spiritual issue for any person at any sustainable at any sustainable level what do you think about the new trials and stuff for MDMA usage for PTSD and stuff like that I those would be the two instances where I'm not only not opposed to it but I'm very Pro it Pro very for it because treatment resistant depression you're already trying really difficult drugs PTSD some profoundly bad has happened to you so the idea that you'd be willing to gamble some things to fix it totally for especially if it's being done in a medical setting you know by people know what they're doing what I'm really starting to get worried about is people who are not doctors who are sort of freely prescribing you know transformative medical experiences as a magical solution to really profound issues that people have so my like I would love through the medical community to do what the medical community is gonna do I just I just don't like this idea that like we should be like tweeting and you know making videos about it it just makes me nervous I don't have any judgment for anyone who's talking about it or doing it just makes me very nervous because like historically I just don't see a lot of precedents for that ending well usually it blows up in everyone's face and we are living in a time where like because a lot of this mentality is coming from Silicon Valley where Silicon Valley through some of those thinking has kicked out some important legs of the stool on which society depends do you know what I mean well now this is getting really interesting I just I don't know it's like what like what if the internet can replace our relationships with other people or like what if we can just have an app that fixes this problem and then we're like oh wait you basically blew up civil the civilized world's you know what I'm saying I think that's actually happening I just I just mean like we can't even agree on what reality is anymore and I think social media has largely exacerbated that if not created the problem to begin with so you have a son yes one of the reasons that I am glad I don't have kids if you had given me immersive virtual sex as a teenager yeah I would never have left I'm not sure who would have so it like that one that scares me I am so glad that we don't or that we didn't have the internet when I was a teenager I just I worry about how many I would have lost to porn yeah being sane yeah or just like can you imagine I don't have a daughter but like United mean wait your second all right you have two boys really yeah for some reason I thought for sure you had a daughter reason now if but if I had a daughter and then it's look at problem for boys too but to be a 13 year old girl is already a deeply insecure overwhelming experience where you feel like you're being judged where you feel like you don't measure up you know all these things I can't imagine adding Instagram to that do you know what I mean yeah like this is terrifyingly so like you already fit nobody thinks that adults don't think they look good in pictures right what does it 13 year old what business is a thirteen-year-old have managing a modeling account for herself which is essentially what Instagram is and it like look models have always gone through this and so celebrities and you know public people but we used to pay people a lot of money like I have a social media account and I have to deal with the fact that people say mean things or I post something that I thought was cool and people didn't like it but I got paid a lot of money you know what I mean like I'm compensated for this 16 year old is not yeah yeah man I I'm conflicted because when I think about the people that I have had access to the ideas that I've had access to because of the internet because of social media when I think about the fact that I've essentially dedicated my adult life and my fortune to helping people via shershow media so it's like there there are there's tremendous of not if it's five my work would not have broken through without social media and so and you know as as problematic as the Internet has been I also it was also a wonderful experience for me like I sort of remember you know getting in I got an email address in me like fifth grade and I was very early to it but I like I this world was very different than the world that I existed in which my parents did not understand me in which I was not particularly sort of believed in or or pushed like I was oh my god there's this world out here with more people like me in it and so there's wonderful things and a lot of so even as an adult a good chunk of I had dinner last night with someone that I who I found out liked my work from social media and it was awesome you know I mean like this is not just a random person is an interesting person but like you know like the point is like all of the there's so many pros there's just also a lot of downside yeah [ __ ] all right so let's go back to what's going on in Silicon Valley so yeah what in what way is it just the experiment with the internet and apps that you're saying is key I just I just mean like you know I just feel like I've this this probably getting into just like lame social commentary but it's just like weren't these people just telling us that Bitcoin was we're gonna replace money which created an enormous financial bubble you know weren't these people just telling us that polyamory was the future of relationships you know what I mean like what what is tinder and and these other apps done to the dating dating world it's just not everything needs to be disrupted you know and and there are always consequences and unintended consequences for the things that we do and I think we're just the the problem is the unintended consequences come far enough down the road and so I just wish there was a little bit more intellectual humility from these people who are talking about how they found a plant in the Amazon rainforest that is all upside and notice yeah it's interesting I I have a very weird relationship with drugs so I'm super probably afraid is the right word so I didn't have my first drink of alcohol until I was 26 Wow and I probably wouldn't have even done that if I hadn't met my wife and she was like no no come on like this'll be fun let's do it together I don't have an addictive personality so I I don't have a fear of becoming addicted what I have is a fear of always had a fear of doing anything that would [ __ ] up my brain like I'm just super psychotic about that I've tried micro dosing yeah and it didn't do anything for me and because I worry enough about doing things in my brain and but I've never gone all the way to you know some transformative experience and then at the same time as a writer I was writing the sea in future which is the comic book that we created and I wrote about a guy and I really wanted him to have like this a moment that that shifted his consciousness that not not not in some grand psychedelic way just like a little bit like look at things just a little bit and my natural reaction was to have him do drugs yeah because it works yeah like when I think about when I drink which I don't do very often but when I drink it's like I feel like I'm suppressing the urge to dance on the table and that's that is a wonderful feeling right so I drink on occasion with my wife when we get into like this little cocoon like it does the reason that this [ __ ] lives on and it lingers and all that is because it actually does something and so for somebody that one I'm super keen to try MDMA yeah I want to do it with my wife I don't want to do it in a clinical setting yeah but I think that would be [ __ ] awesome yeah maybe I don't know I think it's it's also again it's a little flip but like if it was so transcendent and transformative why did I have to do it multiple times that's fair and I've heard people give that criticism like hey this isn't something that you should be doing over and over and over this right and yet it's it because I think that is the nature of drugs and I'm not trying to say like oh it's a gateway drug you're gonna get addicted but the nature of drugs is is you are getting the thing without the work for the thing right and very rarely do you tell humans here's a shortcut take the law and then they take the long way that's just not how we're wired right you know you you want the shortcut all the time do you meditate not really interesting I tried to write a book about stillness without invoking or talking about meditation very much because you know ramita the-- talks about how like look people aren't going to make budgets they're just not going to make budgets so don't tell them to make budgets cuz you're you're already starting them you're already setting them up to fail and so I wanted to talk about stillness from a variety of other angles that would make their life tangibly better mm-hmm that would not require them to do a thing that either they're not cut out to do they're not willing to do and if they are cut out for it well there's like 8 trillion books about that yeah because of the physiological what I call physiological hooks I think meditation is quite literally something every single human being should do now if you do it and then reject it Hey fine for a nap like if you know how to diaphragm breathe and get yourself out of the sympathetic nervous system into the parasympathetic but it's one of those where thankfully I discovered meditation probably about four years ago and then I went through a brutally brutally stressful time in my life it wasn't [ __ ] crazy and when I think about if I hadn't had meditation during that period like whoa that that legitimately I worry about the toll that would have taken on me and I not been able to de-escalate my nervous system yeah I know I I tend to find that I get that meditative experience from walking from swimming from you know from getting into flow states from other things but you know if I could it if if the times that I tried it it worked very well for me I'd be doing it all the time right haven't been able to get there super interesting all right men where should people find you where should they find the book yes which is rad okay still this is a key available everywhere books are sold you can follow me I'm at Ryan holiday but I won't actually reach you will I usually no I don't even I don't even really check them but then there's a Ryan holiday to the net and then if you're interested in the stoicism stuff we're talking about there's daily still calm which is a free email that goes out every day and then if you can't even do an email there's a daily Stoke on Instagram which is a quote from the Stokes every day to think about and then the thing you should be promoting which I'm startled that you were not is the daily Stoke on YouTube oh yeah which is one of the only platforms that matter in my opinion and it's most underrated of all the social no it's going to rule the world soon enough I promise you it is so much better algorithmically than everything else it's out there as a content creator if you're creating content you're not on [ __ ] YouTube you're out of your mind and the stuff that you're doing on YouTube is rad yeah so I guess it's youtube.com slash dance dog get after it yeah my man thank you so much for coming on the show anytime you have something to promote I'd love to sit down with you John again I love the way your mind works Oh awesome when you're here stop by cool everybody thanks for joining us for conversations with Tom no the Stokes would say prepare for the day ahead and then you're supposed to reflect on the day that just passed and so that sort of process of preparing in the morning and reviewing in the evening allows me to never get too far from where I want to be