How to Stay in the Room After the Yes / Journey Management Playbook S02E04

Welcome to episode four in season two of the journey management playbook. This is our season finale. If you haven't watched the previous episodes, make sure you do so because then you'll be able to get up to speed. And before I get into all the great things that we're going to explore today, I want to start with a story. This is a story from somebody who reached out to me and um I have sort of changed some details and some names to make sure that this person stays anonymous but I feel that this is really important to share and sort of set the context and stage. Uh but the sort of the gist is is real. So let's say this person's name is Sophia. Sophia reached out to me. She's working at a large European B2B software business 4,000 people. uh she basically did all the work that we explained in the previous episodes which means she found an executive sponsor. She has found a big pain in the organization uh which has a real number attached. Um she has exposed that number. Uh she picked one single journey as we said like don't do everything just pick one thing. uh in this case it was about renewals and she ran even a 90day pilot and you know what she told us the pilot actually work. Now what does that mean? She was able to reduce churn with nine points in this pilot and that meant a 7 figure recovery in sales. This is not an assumption. This was actually verified by finance. Let me state that again. This was verified by finance. So month one after the pilot. So this is after the 90 days she's able to present her findings at important meeting in the organization and what happens? She gets applause. The vice president says this is one of the best works your team has done in the past years. Great. Amazing. Now, what happens in month two? Month two gets even better. She's able to present to the executive committee and the CEO even starts asking some questions and makes notes. Great. Like this is one of the best things that can actually happen to you. Now, month three, where are we? The company makes a very important pricing decision in the renewal journey that she actually has worked on in the pilot. But you know what? Sophia wasn't in the meeting. She only found out about this decision in the notes of the session. All right. Uh alarm broils. Uh so 2 weeks later after that decision had been made the director of marketing reached out to her and asked her and I I'm going to take a pause. What do you think the request was? The request was actually to help make a map for a loyalty program because that's where Sophia was known for is known for in the organization. So 90 days after the pilot, after a 7 figure revenue recovery, she ended up being the maps and mapping person. Again, she wasn't demoted. She wasn't criticized. Uh there wasn't a meeting where it was decided that she wasn't the right person. Um, and what she told us in her message at the end was that she was able to win the pilot but lost the job that she thought she earned. I hope this sets the stage. Um, like I said, this is Journey Management Playbook season 2, the season finale, and we're going to figure out why this happened and how we can make sure that this doesn't happen to you as well. Martin Welcome back. >> Thank you. Wow, what an intro. Um, sad one as well. I mean, so demotivating. I mean, Sophia did great work. She proved her her, you know, numbers. She delivered and she went back to where she came from. I mean, I hope she was managing to to to sort of find the inspiration to to continue. But I look, it's not bad luck. It it's actually something that we see and has been repeated many many times over. It's it's uh actually not what um Sophia did but the role she was playing in the bigger context of how decisions are made uh at the enterprise but actually put her in in the you know CX bucket again uh 90 days later and that is something we will unpack to see how we can hopefully end that that bad spiral. Yeah, like you said, uh it's very frustrating, can even be demotivating because sure, we love what we do. Uh journeys are an important part of our work, but at the end of the day, we want to make a lasting impact on the organization that we're serving and the people that we're serving and not just be the people who are providing insight. So, just a quick recap. If you go back to episode one, it was all about calculating the cost of bad customer experience. Episode two was figuring out what the operating model needs to be in order to put that into place and make those numbers credible. Uh, last time in episode 3, we talked about how do you actually enter quote unquote the room? Uh, we talked about a five slide business case. We talked about the U curve. We talked about how to go from a pivot to a pilot. And we ended with a line uh where we said the door isn't locked. It just doesn't know that you exist. So, if you did the work, um hopefully the door has opened for you. The pilot got approved. Great if you uh actually made it there. Uh but Sophia just showed us what potentially waits after the applause and we need to do better. We can do better and we will do better. Right Martin? we can and we need to is very very key and I think you know I have this on the page here now that one thing you should go away with of the today's episode the closing one is uh I will actually read out exactly what it says on the page before the yes insights gets you in to the boardroom that is after the yes the decisions you make keep you there so this is the big shift that we we're going to discuss today is from moving from delivering insights to how to, you know, run and operate decisions that actually have an impact on the P&L as, you know, the journey manager that you are going to to sort of do it at scale repeat in a repeated kind of way that earns you the the the invite over and over again. >> Yeah. We don't want to just be there once. We celebrate that we got a seat at the table u but we want to stick at the table and uh become maybe the person who is the first one to be invited in instead of hoping for the last seat. Now again this story will sound familiar to a lot of us who are listening right now. Maybe it's good to do sort of an autopsy because in this case Sophia actually delivered like that is already huge success. She was able to prove with the pilot that they are able to recover money, finance, verified it, which is critical. So why didn't she get invited to the meeting where in this case the pricing decision got made? What happened? Let's let's unpack that. Yeah. So look, what what Sophia did was to to enter the room and space as we discussed in our previous episodes with a good case. she sort of had a road map that uh very clearly said I will fix this on a systemic level. Let's use the churn uh example we have been having right the 4.6 million churn that we have um so I can for instance address the 920k uh within potentially say 6 months uh moving forward if you give me the 90 days of operations. So she revealed the root cause of the problem. She quantified the the pain. Uh she brought it into into the decision room in a way that truly, you know, responded to the stakeholders, she was revealing insights, right? So what she then did afterwards was when the stakeholder said, "Yes, we're going to execute this. This is fantastic. Sophia, well done. High five. Applause, etc." What role did she then play? the next day directly afterwards. That is the question, right? what what is you know it's the starting point not the end point of your sort of no pun intended journey right to to deliver and what decisions are you going to own to deliver that 90-day plan that you presented and I believe together with with the teams we're working with is that here is is is a very very key point the CX professional needs to transition into becoming a journey manager and the journey manager is responsible or should be responsible for the operations and the decisions that come out of operating the 90-day plan and the all the the the insights and and the prioritizations and the hard questions that need to be made by also other verticals and representatives in the cusp company to to implement this this plan right but I am the manager of this whole process so I'm taking ownership of driving this forward and that is what Sophia didn't do. She let that happen or give it away to the other verticals that normally would do it but they would do it locally rather than across the whole journey. And one other thing, she probably didn't name the stakeholder to be the responsible role of the pain being the journey owner. And this is important. The stakeholder that we always said who will be get fired if if the pain is is not touched, right? Is actually the owner of the journey because the journey describes what is actually at fault, what can be done about it and and the manager delivers that that process. But the owner needs to show the numbers that we have fixed this journey. And if the owner and manager doesn't collaborate as one team because they need each other, they will be dead in the water over time. It will just be one pilot and that's it. And that's what happened in this case and probably in many cases. Uh we explained or sort of touched upon the owner, the journey owner and the journey manager. Those are two roles that might be implicit, but maybe it's good if you sort of give us a recap again like what do these roles do and how do we get into those places? Well, it's a fairly easy, you know, oneliner. The the owner carries the number and the manager carries carries the operating rhythm of of the the project that fixes that number. Right? Previously maybe you would call it a project or or or a you know scope etc etc but that that is from a vertical point of view. So what we this with this way of working with journey management we look at it from a flow a time perspective what happens across across different touch points uh and so forth i.e. the the the root cause of a problem that that for instance in this case is the 4.6 6 million churn has has a has a you know a life of its own. It's a journey and that has to be owned by someone and that becomes then the journey owner. Yeah. So the journey owner uh would be the person who gets fired if this doesn't get fixed whether they have a title of a journey owner or they feel a journey owner implicitly or explicitly they are the owner because they own their profit and loss and they own uh this journey. Where does the journey manager sit? Well, a journey manager sits I guess you think are you thinking about in general like in in the org it's or or specifically in this case with Sophia? I'm just >> yeah maybe yeah maybe both but let's start with Sophia because that's the most tangible example. >> Yeah sure. So say for instance that she she was talking to I obviously don't know what what is explicitly her her sort of pilot was but say she was addressing this 4.6 six million churn that we have been discussing, right? And that churn is then owned by by uh head of sales. So she would sit under head of sales. So she would be reporting to the head of sales that is the journey owner. So the altitude of operation and the authority that the journey manager in this case Sophia uh has is given and you know supported sponsored by the journey owners who would be in this case the head of sales. So would she get um you know impediments, friction, pitfalls, whatever you call it that she cannot solve, she goes to her journey owner for for um yeah solving those. And so does that mean that depending on um who owns the number uh which department owns the number you as a journey manager sit below that because you're reporting into either >> correct >> in this case sales or marketing or IT or HR look it's more about about I I would rather go away from the is it HR is it IT is it marketing etc. is more about authority, right? Again, the journey manager is a horizontal role, right? The the journey manager ties together all the different ingredients, i.e. integrations, data, research, uh decisions, prioritizations and so forth across the journey and therefore there will be different verticals involved. So it's more about I have the authority to to make critical decisions of how we move this project forward to solve the pain that is owned by the in this case head of sales because he owns the the churn uh number. Yeah. So but this is where the friction in reality uh emerges because you do horizontal work that spans multiple silos. Uh but there's there needs to be someone who is able to make decisions and you use the word authority who is able to say yes marketing we are going to do this because XYZ right uh as a journey manager where you're working horizontally you usually don't have the authority to influence the priorities or the budgets or the timelines of all these different uh departments. Well, look, there is there is a maybe I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but there is a way of of solving for this, right? So, how let's ask R the question like how would Sophia operate to be successful, right? And then we can get to who's who she's reporting to and so forth in in in a second. So, what she should do the first week uh after the the project was launched and and approved by in this case a head of sales for the 4.6 6 million churn is shoe. She creates a a a spreadsheet, whatever format, doesn't matter, right? And she has a few few sort of columns that she's going to to check against, right? In the meetings that she's going to be >> So, hold on. Hold on, Martin. Yeah. No, I think this is really uh a good moment to say we're going to get very practical and start making notes because this is stuff that you can actually start doing tomorrow. I know what's coming. So, grab your notebook, start making screenshots if you're on YouTube. I will share some of these materials. But this is literally also stuff uh everybody who's listening can do today, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Sorry. >> No, no, no. It's my bad. I'm just jumping ahead because I think I think it it the answer that you asked before about who you report to and so forth comes out of this to some extent. >> Okay. >> So, for instance, the the the journey manager then. So the role of the journey manager will be to manage the the the project through the the sort of uh authority that she has or he has been given. So the questions what I'm going to ask is is I bring in all the key stakeholders and people in the room that owns the four or are sort of part of the 4.6 million churn and I'm going to ask okay about who is the owner of this this specific uh item that needs resolving what are the next steps and what is the cost of waiting. So the questions that the manager the journey manager will ask for instance like if you have for instance an email that is uh sent out and is an upsell email and and you know it doesn't generate anything. The question is why is that right? So what is the fault of this specific issue that is contributing to the churn we're currently having? Is it the marketing lead because they potentially are owning the the email outreach, right? or is it uh uh you know some type of data perspective because it's targeting the wrong person whatever it doesn't matter it it is then quantified okay in the room we agreed this is the owner of this specific frustration pain that needs solving okay what is the next step that we going to attack this specific issue by say next Tuesday uh at least from an analytical perspective okay and then if we don't do it what is the cost of of of of letting it lie on and wait for be tackled later down the road. And that is maybe a hard conversation to be had, but you can think of like, okay, how many people are are not reached by this email? What are the cost for for that, etc., etc. So, it can be sort of a a line item and you go as a journey manager, you go through this type of questions and lists to, you know, attack the most important topics to solve the 4.6 6 million churn pain that we have been agreeing that we're going to solve for across the 90 days. And this is where it goes back to who you're reporting to because this line item list will help you to identify what authority I need to have, who I need to get involved, and what they need to do by when to get this solved for. And if I see that I don't have the authority and ability to to drive this, I need to go to my journey owner to address this right because that is the second line item you need to do. We need to have a frequent check-in with the journey owner to say this is what I have identified what we need to do about the frustration when it's going to happen and if we don't act what it will cost us and if if we can't move ahead then I need to report it to my sponsor that will then give me the authority or at least ask for authority and if it's not possible we need to dial it down to such a level that we have the authority and then the question is on what level we're operating within the organization H okay. Um so this structure and uh this rhythm is really a key to unlock progress. But maybe uh one thing that we haven't addressed fully yet is we as self assigned journey managers need a journey owner. probably in most organizations I will not be able to walk into the room and say hey Martin you know what um I see that there is a 4.6 6 million gap here. Uh it's on your P&L and from now on you're are the journey owner like I'm not sure I don't think that will work in in most contexts. Um so how do we get our journey owners? >> Yeah it's a scary thing right to to just name something. Um there there is a trick for that as well right? So you present the the the you know the case that we the the five pager deck that we we you know discussed in in episode 3 and everyone will be nodding and say oh this is great you you brought something to our attention fantastic. Um and then what you will do is to rather the naming the person you just ask who owns this you know line of budget and then go silent and the answer is someone should raise their hand and and say well that's on that's on me right that is that is my my uh KPI or my my worry uh or it you know the 4.6 six million can get me fired if I if I you know let it grow even larger and that implicitly becomes then the journey owner and then you can start discussing okay what what does that mean and and discussing the the the the process we we're going to work with to get the buy in of that the sponsor or sorry the the the person who has the line item on on on their you know report to their stakeholder also becomes the the sponsor of the initiative. Yeah. So you need to make sure that you are in the room with the right people before presenting this insight. And I can already imagine the uncomfort and people moving in their seats when you present this and ask this question like who sort of does this belong to? And >> most likely people will start looking at each other and say uh >> well look at their neighbor. But let's let's okay let's assume that that individual doesn't even exist uh in the room right there and then that that might happen. You might discover something and go hang on a minute but this is like two levels higher than we even thought of. What do you do then? Well you take then your superior whoever you report to and you discuss this okay what are we going to do this this number is are we dialing it down are we aiming too high that can also be we going to discuss what journeys to begin with and so forth. So the scope sets the altitude, right? So if we're talking about a big churn number, then probably that goes very very high up in the organization. Maybe you don't have the access to that individual at all or it's too many loops ahead, right? Or people in between. So then you go, okay, can we dial it down, make it smaller, make it make it more more sort of on on our altitude or horizon, right? Or maybe we have the availability and opportunity to go to this individual and say, "Hey, look, we we found something here that potentially needs your attention. What do you think about this?" And that person person can say, "Oh, fantastic. I'll I'll I'll pick this up and run with it." Then assigning themselves as the journey owner or they potentially will delegate and say, "Look, I don't have time right now. It's urgent, but maybe we should make it smaller." and then give a name that potentially should then pick up the the responsibility of this that then becomes your journey over there. >> Yeah. And hopefully uh there is no hesitation in the room but there's actually somebody who's standing up and sort of cheers you on and says amazing this is uh an issue that I've been having for the last two years. If you are able to contribute to this great I will sort of give you a big hug. like that is the ultimate scenario that you're that you're aiming for, right? You want to address something that is really um for a lack of a better word, high priority. I wanted to use the word uh painful but high priority enough, urgent enough um that people will start actually cheering you on instead of uh I mean what you can do here I have a slide as well that move the the that the move that changes the label it says or who is the owner of of the of the pain is that you also can you know map the the breakdown the 4.6 six million number and also plot it against the org chart yourself and have a guess of who can have different sort of impact across this specific pain. Right? And that can also help your your stakeholder to then navigate and and delegate if if it's too high. So whose line is this on? It can also not be potentially the whole 4.6 but you know a fraction of it as we discussed because it might be an onboarding issue that we have revealed right. So maybe we tackle that part only and then we discuss how can we optimize onboarding that becomes maybe then a 1.6 million uh uh pain out of the total 4.6. So that is totally possible you can navigate and that that you have the capability of doing so because you have the whole journey ecosystem in front of you. So you can dissect the root causes of this this 4.6 six million and and how all the different sort of friction points and and bottlenecks actually add up, right? And then you can tackle it on the right level. I want to make sure that I actually understand this because so far it's sort of making sense logically, but I want to go back to Sophia's story and um like again look back at it seems like she did all this work, right? She figured out how to get attention. She managed to get the pilot. She actually managed to get results. And then we sort of uh concluded or she concluded that she wasn't invited into the key decision. >> Yeah. >> Let's go back again to that moment if she had to redo this or start over again or what's the thing that should have done uh or have been approached differently. Okay. So what say we can have two scenarios. So she could have done it the traditional way. So she explored anal analyzed and presented. So that's what we discussed previously, right? So we I have >> that is the classic road right that's what we are comfortable with. >> Exactly. I made the problem visible in this case the churn issue. I have uh you know made made a dissection of why why this problem exists. Uh I have come with a lot of insights and a and a plan for for for attacking it. Right. Great. I get the the buy. So what she then needs to do so again she doesn't stop. She continues. So then what she does is how do I manage the business across this journey to make the right decisions. So how make how do I sort of help or drive the business to make the right decisions based on the data I have and I know again the Excel sheet or whatever we talked about. So who owns all the different sort of pain points and frustrations and that are building excuse me building up to the root cause of the problem that needs solving for. I am in charge of of you know driving these identify them and and managing them. So I have also then the ability to present this on an ongoing basis. So I become I become the project manager of the journey that we are currently solving. Right? So call it journey manager, project manager and so forth. But I have the authority to drive it as the the project manager of the old building blocks that need solving for to solve for the the the 4.6 million churn issue and that comes with a ritual right with with the with the ceremonies. So I need to identify what has who is responsible what needs to happen and what is the cost of not taking action. I need to report to my stakeholder on an ongoing basis about where we are to achieve this and I also need to flag any type of of uh impediments and frictions where I am not able to achieve what we agreed on achieving for whatever reasons and how we resolve them. And with that you become the person the necessary person to go to again and again again to ensure that the project is actually you know implemented and when it's >> let's sorry no go >> no let's go so let's compare this because this um I'm curious how does this guarantee that you'll be still in that position after the 90-day pilot has ended because it's very safe for an organization to allow you to experiment, play around, see what happens within 90 days, but after 90 days, you sort of get put back in your cage and sort of stick to your quote unquote job description. So, how does it how does this change things? You you mean specifically for the CX uh uh professional or? >> Yeah, for the Yeah, right. Because it's great these 90 days and I can um I'm looking for does this really uh allow me to continue this approach after the pilot has ended? And if so, why? Yeah, look, so okay, so let's assume you you you have uh end it sounds like ended the pilot. So it's done and and you you know all done that ideally theoretically say that happened right normally it takes longer and it you need to prove and so forth but say say that happens then of course done successfully and you are the necessary ingredient managing this the normal question happens what's next right so the first project you do in this way that you normally just handed over and hoped for later on that that will be resolved and then you move on to as as uh we talked about marketing ask you for map loyalty journey map right no no you you maintain that position of managing the issues you are surfacing because you have now delivered a let's call it then the pilot right with also proof of success the immediate next question is okay how can we tackle the rest of the 4.6 6 million because we just sold excuse me say 9 920k and we have you know over 3 million left. So how will we tackle that? And that is then something you you know do over and over again. So it's it's it's it's a neverending um process and with success you hopefully will also start to grow in in altitude or or horizon. So rather going from a tactical um position, you can if done really right, you can go more and more into a strategic approach as well, which is great for your career. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And hopefully for your salary. Um, so if I'm getting you right, and correct me uh if I'm messing things up, but the one of the key differences that might feel like a nuance, but it's not, is you're not only presenting in inside this is what I'm seeing happening, but you're also saying, okay, this is what needs to happen next, and this is what we need to to get there. So, you're always pushing for the next step. You sort of made the decision and almost only are waiting for the green light. whether the organization wants to fix this issue. Is that a sort of a fair summary or am I cutting too many corners here? >> Well, I would say avoid waiting at all costs. If you wait, you're passive and and uh we we have learned here that that you know we we seldom or rarely get the invitation. So, we need to drive, right? So we need to take action and say hey listen we now have the proof point that we solved this 900k part of or we we just sort of covered the 900k of the journey issue. Here is another 100 uh 100 uh uh touch points and and frustrations and so forth broken down in a very nice uh uh action plan that will handle potentially one and a half million of your churn issue. let's move right and and you initiate it directly with the with the you know probably your best friend journey owner that you already have established a great relationship with and they have a great story to tell to their stakeholders and superiors right that hopefully pay attention. So no waiting here. No rather driving and and you can of course run a few of these in parallel. You don't have to maybe just do one with the help of technology and and and efficiency. You can you can maybe orchestrate several journeys with that one journey owner or maybe several different journey owners. Who knows? >> Yeah. And again if I close my eyes I'm trying to imagine these conversations uh that you for instance would have with um the VP of sales in one role one conversation is here's what we're seeing this is what's happening here is the journey here are some insights versus hey um I think there's an opportunity to save XYZ and this is how I want to approach this we can start tomorrow it's like that that's that's a different type of conversation and if you keep presenting it like like this like you said it's never done you can always present something like here is another opportunity we have a plan we can start tomorrow well I mean this this is a very tricky maybe maybe also the you know it we're now talking about that this is two individuals right obviously that's not true so there there of course the journey owner is also is supported by hopefully a team that can support them in in in driving this. But what it comes down to is don't only put facts on the table and walk away. You own them and drive them and make decisions around how to to get to where you need to be. If if so you you take the ownership of of making the critical decisions of managing this journey or this project. So you have an active continuous role in the process rather than you know passive and I think passive was previously like you you you believe that your work and your responsibility and job was revealing presenting having a a plan and then the verticals or head of product or or or you know marketing etc etc picks this up. Sure they can do this but then they act again from their verticals. There needs to be one that has a management drive, responsibility and ownership to do it horizontally across the whole sorry horizontally across the whole journey right or journeys scope and that is your responsibility and you need to take that that stick and and and you know like a relay and then run with it and and hand it out to everyone who needs to be involved. you delegate and make those decisions and that is a that is a big I think that is one of the biggest shifts in the whole sort of four episodes that we have been uh uh discussing right so this is not just a back of a napkin calculation anymore this is this is you taking ownership and responsibility for a very large project within the enterprise yeah when I listen to the conversations around me I talk to a lot of service design professionals CX professionals like often the comment is our ultimate job is to help the organization make better decisions and I get that like we usually don't get into the positions where we can drive decision making but what we're saying here is that you either accept the fact that you are helping to drive the decisions and then always have this uh narrative this role of being the research person, the insights person or you step into this different identity where you are an owner, where you are somebody who drives decisions and where you're um accountable and responsible. Now, that's easier said than done because the organization has to permit and allow you to step into that role, but that should be the driving force. that should be the thing that is that is going to change how you're perceived and um sort of >> well look I don't know >> let's let's let's do a a an exercise flip it around so you have you have presented this um scenario uh you have the deck you have the the case everything is fine the journey owner is has bought in who else can the journey owner go to to drive this if it's not you I'm just curious do you I mean you you talk to endless amount of people so just just let's just let's play with the thought like why why could it be the traditional say product manager because I believe that one product manager is focusing on delivering product solutions from their horizon their their their sort of perception of of of what the truth is right marketing potentially is also involved here if we talk about the email example but Why is the the the the customer not actually doing what they need supposed to be doing when they get the email, right? So, so and and that might have to do with their previous experiences from support that was totally a mess and so forth which marketing doesn't know about. But you as a journey manager, you do that. You have the the truth and you can operate and and manage that. So the counterpoint is like who else can do do this job better than you can being the journey manager of driving this this project. Uh uh I would say there there there isn't any other roles out there who can do it. >> Yeah. Because there are no uh horizontal roles assigned usually in an organization. >> Exactly. >> At least not Yeah. And the journey owner cannot be the journey manager because they don't they they they have a totally different responsibility within the business. >> They own that one KPI but they don't know why the KPI in this case 4.6 million churn is there in the first place or the true root causes of it. Right? So they can't run it. >> They can't go and start delegating because they have a deck or a journey that that that maybe tells them what to do but they they are not the manager in that context of of running the whole project. They can delegate. So then again they have no capacity to do it. I guess the ultimate journey owner is the CEO whose fans yeah they should be um okay is there let's let's go back to uh maybe the the Monday morning where we have to get this um get this going. So we let's say we uh accept everything that we've shared in this episode in the past three episodes. What can we do? How do we start? >> Sure. >> So we have you know two Mondays uh sort of one practitioner Monday I see journey manager Monday and the journey owner executive or or stakeholder Monday. So let's f focus on the the uh journey manager Monday, right? So what you do is you open the decision list that we discussed before with the different questions about the owner, the next steps and the cost of waiting and you really run that and see okay where are we right now or do I have all of them identified yes or no you have a you know 25 minute 30 minute 40 minute depending on complexity weekly review with the teams that touch this journey so you are in in control of of really checking in on on the list that has been sort of agreed on that needs to take be be actioned against. And you're also asking the owner for, you know, a standing slot to to discuss potential open decisions, impediments, frictions that you cannot solve for or you have learned across your check-ins with the teams that this is not going to happen as we planned for. And you know, do not wait. You need to have these this up and running, right? And if not again that's also a a a process pro problem that you then can also flag to your sponsor that you are not invited to the meetings with the teams and so forth then again it's an authority issue right so that would be your first sort of Monday after approval assuming that the list is there and if it's not then you of course create the list and you check off the questions with every teams and so forth responsible uh and so yeah short break to uh sort of recap like putting this rhythm and routine in place is already like we're stepping quickly over it but this is already a huge part of the work. Can you get time from the people that matter on a weekly basis like that's that's already if you are able to do that half of your work is done. So don't skip over that. That is hard work. That is important. Make sure that that happens. >> Can I can I say one thing here? >> Sure. And when you get invited, you're not a guest. You are a person who is taking off the the agenda and the priority of that team's actions. And that is that is a that is a >> you know some sometimes it can be a tough one but it has to be >> you need to call the shots for their prioritization of their backlogs or the you know whatever delivery uh cadence and so forth. >> Yeah. >> That that is what what it means, right? And you need to have that >> you're hosting the dinner, right? You are hosting the dinner and then you need to make sure that the food will be good, that the music will be good, that there are no >> uh uh accidents. Um so if you can like getting the guests in, getting the space, that's that's again not to be underestimated. It's it's a lot of work and probably the journey owner initially is going to put their reputation on the line and sort of vouch for you and tell their friends at the sea level maybe like okay this is an important meeting you need to be there and and your goal is to make sure that you don't um uh like what's the word um the trust that you have gotten that you don't uh waste you need to make most out of that opportunity. Like that's that's critical >> 100% 100%. Again, it's not like the the the sponsor should the sponsor has to give you the authority. This is this is so critical. It's like if again if the if the sponsor who is responsible for the 4.6 million churn has not the right authority to delegate to the journey manager, you both will fail. Then you're aiming too high. So your journey manager needs to go into different verticals with the authority to impact their backlogs, their flows of of decisions and and so forth to align around what matters the most right now to address this issue. And and to add to this Martin because this is absolutely right. The way to do this is to pick a problem that is urgent and big enough for your journey >> and not too high. And we we you know maybe if time allows we can also discuss on what altitude should we begin. >> Uh but it you normally aim high too high rather aim lower. Right? So again you don't need to maybe tackle the whole 4.6 six million, but rather a part of it that you will have the authority to drive the the the proof of of do doing it this way, right? And therefore your your authority level hopefully will be not strategic but rather tactical across a few teams and then when you have the proof point you you then can you know elevate your your um next project to to have higher authority. >> Yeah. Shall we talk about executive uh Monday? >> Yes. >> So what you obviously need to do is to agree on the first thing you do when you wake up on Monday morning is oh yeah I claim this this uh role and line so I'm going to focus on solving this uh and and you know I own it. You have named the the manager the journey manager and you have given them the right permissions to to you know truly drive this. Um and you also need to of course have availability to tackle these issues that come up and also communicate it to others. I think it's so important as well that you need to you know verbalize it to others about that this is now in place. I have given the the authority and the right to to to drive this and you know th this this is something that we giving 90 days uh to to be be running and we will evaluate afterwards for instance or whatever the time frame is right. Yeah. And and one maybe one last thing sorry what we also need to communicate is is the scope of course right so you need to within the the spreading the gospel and so forth tell others like what is the scope of this this specific project. So the the ownership of the number comes with okay at at what level are we going to execute and make sure that that is explicitly known to others. So so there is no sort of guesswork or or frustrations that you claim the space and you claim the scope as well. From your experience, Martin, what you've seen over the last years uh with DU and the clients that you've been working with, if we want to take this approach, how far in advance do we need to start creating our own brief with these things? Because as we've said in the previous episodes, chances are very slim that someone within the organization will come to you and ask you for this specific uh approach. That's just not going to happen. People don't see you like that. Uh so you need to create your own brief and that takes time. So like how far like should we be talking to our VP of sales a year in advance to understand their key issues? Is it 3 months? Like what time frames are we working on? >> I mean look the the the the larger the problem, the pain, the more strategic the longer time frame, right? Normally um so so it it it has to do with horizons and altitudes. But on the other hand, you can also flip it around and say for instance, if if the if the pain is so critical for your stakeholder, it should not wait. So if you if you have for instance, they know that there is a reorg coming 6 months from now and their head is potentially on the line because the numbers on the rights that they potentially are responsible for, anything that comes to their attention that can solve for this will get their priority. So it's the question is like do I have the case and the plan ready in such a format that I can I can come into that room with this argument with that solution and if it's you know urgent enough critical enough they will find time I mean I can give a very good example back in the days many many years ago I was a consultant where we identified a road map for a very large enterprise where uh the customer was also involved in in in defining the solutions and so forth. The um the team was presenting later on to head of IT. The CX team was presenting to the head of IT um and they said yeah you know we understand but we our backlog is is planned for the next six months you know let's let's move on and talk later. So we rehashed it. We actually arranged in another meeting where we framed it as a financial pain for the end customer and the end customer presented directly to the head of it and they said I the customer are losing millions because this is not in place and if you introduce it I will buy more I will be more loyal etc etc. Within 3 weeks that six month waiting time disappeared. So three weeks later the teams were up and running and start building it. So it's all about framing. It's about how to sell it in what the impact is and come with the right solution and and communicate it in a in a in a way that becomes an urgency for your stakeholders as well. And then that defines the time frame. >> Yeah. And then this is this is as much of an uh skill as it is an art and uh the experience and it Yeah. practice. >> Look, you're not out there alone. This is something that is already up and running and you know, we are definitely a destination to come to and ask questions and and get guidance. Uh you you have the platforms that you can use data being one where we have experts in coaching and helping you to achieve these the specific presentations but also the proof points and also how to get organized and governance and so forth around it. Um yeah, so there are other communities that that talk to each other about how did you do it, where did you fail and so forth. So you're not alone. But I think if you cannot find your uh source of inspiration and support internally within your organization, start to look out outside to see where can I pick it up, where can I learn, who I can engage with, what proof points can I reuse from other uh uh successful projects that we can sort of refer to in our way of working to uh to get this up and running. Right? So and AI can help here as well. Uh that's that's a whole different story uh you know >> which which we'll hopefully get into uh not today uh but uh uh in the future uh as there is a lot to unpack there. Okay Martin I feel it's it's about time that we start closing the loops. We have two loops that we need to close. One is for this conversation and the other one is maybe for the whole season. But let's start with how we started the story of Sophia and um how she was able to get into the room, get applause, uh but eventually got um sort of back into the position of being a very tactical person instead of somebody who's driving lasting impact in the organization and making decisions. How do we how do we close the loop on uh on that? again you know before the yes insights gets you in after the yes decisions keeps you there right that was the one sentence or two um think of when I enter and have the the solution in place for me my stakeholder this is just the starting point of of my responsibility and my success I need to take the ownership of driving this because I am the only one who can do this across verticals with the data I have available with the tools I have available to manage this. I need to get the right authority from the journey owner to execute and then be there you know daily, weekly, monthly. So I'm not there once and then disappear. I am here because I need to be here to drive this. >> Yeah. And this is also the identity shift that we talked about. It takes maybe a leap of faith and some courage in yourself that you are needed to drive this that you're the best person to drive this that you have the capability to drive this that nobody else will do this. Um this is not a role that we are used to that is common to us but we need to own it. We need to live up to it and uh we are in that position and yeah >> well I mean you know brutally I know we're wrapping up but that use that as also as as an argument for why I need to do this because if you don't you probably will be back to mapping journeys and and serving insights. And if you look around how the world looks like today, that that job is at risk for many different reasons. Yeah. Yeah. So again, my call to action, our call to action here is step into that identity fully own it. Uh even though it might be scary, uh there are a lot of people who are going through the same journey, no pun intended. uh look for them and and go through this together because we need to be in that position if we want to again make a lasting impact on these organizations. All right, so if that wraps up uh this episode, how do we wrap up our season two of the journey management playbook? again the cost of uh bad CX um operating models that we need to put in place, how to get invited into the room, how to stay in the room and actually drive decisions. How would you wrap this up, Martin? Well, I mean, look, think about it as a as a as a several steps, right? So first and foremost, I need to have as a CX professional, I need to have the argument for what I'm doing on a day-to-day, week-on-week basis, what am I is my impact on P&L, the profit and loss, right? So work with numbers that have have respect and and and you know is the the common way of communicating among stakeholders. You need to have an operating model for how to get to the right decisions. So you need to move away from mapping to management. So from journey mapping to management. We discussed that in episode two. Very detailed in what way you should structure your journeys, you know, get data integrations, have them being live, um how do you also manage around uh decisions and so forth. And then once you have those, how you actually pitch in the the story or the solution rather to your customer which is your stakeholder. This is key. Your customer is your stakeholder and you're looking for the most exposed executive or stakeholder in your operations to solve their problems. And today we discussed how you stay in the room once you have got their attention. So you have to be there on an ongoing basis and it's only you who can solve for a horizontal way of of solving the the the pains of frictions that normally were were sort of handled vertically. >> Yeah, I like that. It's only you uh that can solve this. We need to have stickers and t-shirts with that. Um there's a lot more as always. Every answer opens up a lot of new questions. Uh but for now we are sort of uh ending season two. We will be back. I promise you we will be back with season 3. Uh no spoilers on when or what the topics will be yet. But yes, Martin, >> I have I have uh one one thing that we can actually tell. >> Yes, that's that's what I wanted to get as well. But no, no, I'll I'll give you I'll no you have the honor. So uh we're going to extend this conversation. >> Yes. >> How and when? >> Yes. So um guaranteed we you and Mark you and Mark and I will sit on on on stage and have a panel. Uh we will also discuss this as well topic but also engage with the audience during the beyond the map uh event that is now this year hosted in London. uh a little bit later uh in November. So 9th to 11th of November uh and we will be on stage and having also I think a workshop together with the audience uh around these specific topics and some other other juicy items that we have uh as well lined up. But we we want to you know this has been a great opportunity to talk to each other about this this something that we are so passionate about. But we really want to engage with you guys out there. listen to your uh current situations, learn from them, but also how we can reflect on them and together solve for them. And that is something we would love to do uh in in Yeah. in London in November. Yeah. Yeah. Uh again, we're going to be there. Uh there are still tickets available uh depending on when you're watching this. If you're watching this after November 11th, 2026, I'm sure that the recording is online somewhere and we'll add that in the show notes. But uh if we're not yet in November, make sure to join us. Uh it will be a lot of fun and would be uh great to meet uh some of you who are doing this important work and shake some hands. So >> it's not a it's not a promotion uh uh podcast of course, but for the sake of you can go to beyondthemap.com and read about the event if you haven't heard about it before. >> Uh but uh yeah, head over there and and make up your mind. We would love to see you >> and we're uh absolutely excited to see you there. Martin, it uh was a pleasure to do this second episode, this second season with you after the uh first eight episodes of season 1. Uh the stuff just uh keeps getting better. I'm already excited for season 3. Uh we'd love to hear your questions. What would you like to see in season 3? uh leave a comment, send us a message on LinkedIn, send us an email if you're old school uh and we'll be back. So once again, thanks Martin for joining. >> My pleasure. I'm looking forward to the next one. There will be a next one for sure. Somehow somewhere >> somehow. All right. Uh to be continued and uh yeah, see you soon. >> Thank you. Bye-bye.