How to Set & Achieve Massive Goals | Alex Honnold

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Alex Honnold. Alex Honnold is a professional rock climber. He's best known for successfully free soloing, meaning climbing with no ropes or latching on of any kind, El Capitan, also called El Cap, which is a nearly 3,000-ft climb in Yosemite National Park. It was also, of course, the topic and focus of the incredible movie Free Solo, which if you haven't seen, you absolutely should watch. I've wanted to talk to Alex for a long time now. I'm not a rock climber. I've tried it a few times, but I've been extremely curious to understand Alex's mental frame around learning and training and his broader philosophy on life. My interest stems from the fact that Alex's free solo of El Cap and his other climbs make him one of the most accomplished and innovative athletes in all of history. And of course, the free solo of El Cap is extremely high risk and high consequence. Today, we discuss how to envision and make progress towards your goals and how to merge the demands of daily work and family life with incremental training for spectacularly big or long challenges of any kind. Alex makes clear that it's essential and possible to build your capacity to exert effort and how to do that in a regimented way so as to bring seemingly impossible goals within your reach. We also discuss how coming to terms with one's own mortality is actually one of the best motivators for building a great life and why most people hide from that reality and as a result, end up living much smaller lives than they otherwise would. We also discuss training, literally what to do to build strength and endurance, not just for sake of rock climbing, but just generally. And that takes us into discussions about weight training, bodyweight training, running, hiking and a bunch of other things that you can apply. Even if you have zero interest in rock climbing, today's conversation with Alex Honnold will definitely change the way that you think about your life, what you can make of it and how go about that. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Alex Honnold. Alex Honnold, welcome. Thanks for having me. I think Free Solo is remarkable for a ton of reasons, but as a good friend of mine, who I think you know, Michael Muller, photographer, he said, before I'd seen the film, he said, "It's wild because you're terrified as an observer the entire time, but you also know that Alex survives from the very beginning, which is a very unusual Well, I think some people don't know that. Some people watch the movie and they literally have no idea what it's about or what's going on, and they spend the whole movie being like, "Oh my god, what's going to happen?" Okay, so I just spoiled it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, at this point, I'm like, nobody cares. It's old news. Well, it's it's a spectacular feat, and we can go into that feat, but I'd actually like to drill in a little bit to just your process in general. I'm sure that's changed over time, and feel free to talk about that, but you know, I'm very curious about sort of notions of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, right? And and I think Free Solo was also remarkable because you had cameras on you. Um it was obviously to be recorded, and you knew you had cameras on you. And yet I always thought of climbing as kind of a solitary sport, um or things that people do in in small groups, kind of off the grid. Things have changed now with social media, the way everything can be posted very quickly, or even run live, but when you think about sort of the work that you're doing in in terms of progressing and goals and you know, kind of milestones for yourself, how do you envision that? Is this in like a Do you have a a diary? Do you have a process where you sit back and you think, you know, what would be awesome for me to experience? Would people like to see it? How do What's the sort of balance between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation for you? So, basically, I think climbing is always intrinsically motivated. I mean, since I've I started climbing when I was a child. I've always loved climbing. I love the movement of climbing. I love the feeling of it. I love the whole experience, you know, just everything about it's great. But, then, you know, now as a professional climber, obviously, there is that extrinsic motivation as well, where you're like, "Oh, this is how I make a living." And so, I think with the film Free Solo, you know, it's a really interesting balance of the two, where it's like, "This is something that I'd love to do for myself, and even if no one else in the world existed, I'd want to do this thing." But, then, you also know that if you're if the film turns out well, and which it did, uh you know, it's going to be great for your career. It's going to be great for whatever. And so, like, there is that extrinsic motivation as well. And so, then, you're always trying to parse out like which part is which, and you know, cuz you don't want to particularly with free soloing, you don't want to be too extrinsically motivated, cuz you don't want to want to get pushed into something that you're not prepared for or that you shouldn't be doing. Of course, you know, being even being extrinsically motivated, you can do something you shouldn't. You know, I I don't know. I mean, but you're just constantly thinking about those things as a climber. In order to free solo El Cap, did you memorize sequences, or is it more sort of like motifs, where you you kind of know that um you're going to do any number of different things in a in a given pitch? It depends. So, for the hardest parts, I memorized, like, for sure. Memorized every aspect of it. But, that's only the hardest parts. That's maybe like a third of the route. And then, for the easiest third, and some of it is actually quite easy. Some of it's like even a non-climber could climb small sections of the wall. Like, there are parts that are quite easy uh here and there, you know, it's like uh not the bulk, but but so, for the easy parts, you just know that you can do it, and you you don't have to stress it. And then, the the medium parts kind of like, the remaining third of the wall, you sort of remember, kind of like you said, motifs. Like, you you know the hardest part, and you just kind of know that it's going to be fine, but you don't have to memorize it per se. But certainly I knew the the route very very well. You know, you just you just know all the things you have to know. You recognize not just holds, but like visceral sensations. Like it this feels different or cuz I imagine conditions change, right? I mean, weather conditions, heat on the rock, uh shadows on the rock. >> Yeah, but not as much as you might think because uh like I was only climbing in shade like uh in the springtime the that whole west side of the wall stays in the shade until 11:00 or noonish in the morning. So you go at 4:00 in the morning, and then you have you sort of 8 hours of solid shade. So normally the temperature and the the conditions feel relatively stable, and you spend the whole season working on it. So you kind of know that tomorrow's going to feel the same as it did today roughly, you know, and so it's all within a relatively narrow band. Particularly in the spring, which is why I did it in the springtime. In the in the fall in the autumn, it's a little bit different because the sun is lower in the sky, so it gets sun much earlier, and it actually is way hotter counterintuitively. It's like colder when it's in the shade, and then hotter when it's in the sun. And anyway, that makes it harder for climbing, obviously. But when I free soloed El Cap, I was spending 3 or 4 months a year in Yosemite every year. Like, you know, a month or two every spring and every every autumn. And so you're spending 4 months a year in a place, you just know how it feels, you know? It's like you're used to getting up that early, you're used to climbing on the wall, and you're just kind of like, "Oh, it's it's going to be another beautiful day on the rock." And actually the day that I did the free solo of El Cap, it was actually a little more humid and a little warmer than than I maybe than would have been optimal, you know, like it's not what I would have chosen. But that's just the way it was that day, and I was kind of like, "Well, this is my day." You know, you kind of just have to do the thing. Uh but it'd been like overcast that night. And you know when it's cloudy at night, the lows don't drop as low. And so I woke up, and it was like kind of muggy-ish feeling. I was like, "It's not it's not great for being 4:00 in the morning. It's like feels kind of gross." But I was like, "This is my day." It was fine. So you form a relationship with the rock. You kind of like learn to recognize um its different states. When you did it and completed it cuz I know you said out one day and then you you called it off. >> that was in the autumn. That was that was the season before. And basically the season was ending like the storms were coming in the next week type deal and it was like the season was winding down. I was kind of like, well, I should at least take a shot because I'd done a lot of prep and I felt mostly ready. And it turns out I just wasn't ready ready. And so so I wind up bailing. But that was kind of my end of the season like I think I can squeak this in knowing that if I couldn't squeak it in then then I'd have to wait 6 more months. And with the pressure of the film crew and all that stuff knowing that there are all these people like working and waiting for you. You're kind of like, well, I would at least try to get this done. It's like all these people are waiting on me. But as it turns out I just didn't quite have it yet. And then when I ultimately did do it in the spring I was much better prepared, felt way better, the whole experience worked out better. So now in retrospect I'm like, oh, I'm glad that it played out that way cuz you know, it was it was better. But at the time I was you know, I was like, oh god, I failed on this thing and all these people are watching. It's embarrassing. It's you know, it's you know, it's it's all very stressful at the time. Yeah, the external pressures have to be, you know, pretty pretty mighty when yeah, when especially when they're your friends. I I guess one could imagine like when it's just business you can just be like, well, it's just business. But yeah, you had a lot of friends up there with you. >> For me the thing is is that if I'm going to go climb the wall, you know, I start climbing at 4:30 in the morning or 5:00 or something. So that means some of my friends to get in position at the top of the wall are getting up at like 1:00 in the morning and then hiking to the top of the mountain with a heavy backpack. And if you're asking a bunch of your buddies to go hiking at 1:00 in the morning, like you better live up to your end of the the the thing, you know, like if you say you're going to do something you better actually do the thing cuz your friends obviously no one's complaining. No one is pressuring me. No one's but at the same time you don't want to bail. Like it's like it's pretty embarrassing if you tell someone you're going to do something and then you just can't do it. Well, they certainly wanted the outcome to be only one way and >> Yeah, and and they were all super positive and supportive and it's all great, but you still can't help but feel that pressure. >> Sure. Well, it certainly worked out. I'm curious on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being a total certainty, um along that trajectory uh when you completed it, uh were there any phases where um you felt you had to improvise against the original plan? You mean on the day of the actual climb? >> day of the actual completion of of the free solo on El >> No, on on the day I was 100% everything was perfect. I knew exactly what to do. It was all amazing. Um but it took a really long time to get to get there, you know, it's like literally years of of building up to it and then months of preparation and everything. But no, on the day it was it was perfect. I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor Joovv. Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself. What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to joovv.com/huberman. Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products. Again, that's joovv.com/huberman to get up to $400 off. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I've I've doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school, but pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health. There are essentially three things that make up great therapy. First of all, it provides the opportunity to have a really good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and talk to about essentially any issue that you want. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance or of course both. And third, expert therapy should provide you useful insights. Insights that can help you improve in your work life, your relationships, and in your relationship with yourself. With BetterHelp, they make it very easy for you to find an expert therapist who you resonate with and that can provide those three benefits that come from expert therapy. Also, because BetterHelp therapy is done entirely online, it's very time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule. There's no commuting to a therapist's office or sitting in a waiting room, looking for parking, any of that. You just hop online and you do your session. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. When you climb, um, I'm curious where your mental horizon is. I I can make up a story as a non-climber that your mental horizon is always on just the the next uh the next maneuver. Just getting further up and further over. Sometimes, of course, you have to go down and up. Um, but that your your sort of um time binning and your space binning is is very very close. Um, but do you ever go into states where you're uh sort of in automaticity? I mean, we hear about flow, right? But where you find yourself kind of maneuvering as opposed to um being hyper strategic about what's happening in the next 5 seconds, 10 seconds? >> that the aspiration is to be in that, you know, flow state, whatever you want to call it, but um you know, actually, I think even in the film there's some quotes from me saying autopilot and things like I'm you know, I'm aspiring to be on autopilot. So, I'm aspiring to not be thinking too much about it. And and that's for me at least why it required so much practice was to be able to to do something almost by rote, you know, by by through repetition, just to do the thing that you've practiced without having to think about it. Cuz I think once you start thinking about it too much you're just more prone to not just make errors, but just get get too get caught up in your own mind and I don't know. I mean, the the aspiration was just to do the thing. Like no thinking about it, no hesitation, you know, no emotional uh you know, affect around it to just do it. Is the kinesthetic aspect of it big? In other words, are you feeling your way through it as well as um using vision? Um I mean, I imagine that these things start to blend. >> Yeah, I've actually never been asked something quite like that. In some ways I mean, the kinesthetic aspect is is maybe the whole thing. Like I mean, it is kind of like dancing or something where you are just flowing over stone. I mean, obviously you're looking around and you're looking at your footholds and you're sort of placing your feet correctly that way. But but really you're just doing sequences. You're just flowing. Like your body is moving. I mean, it I think when you climb well and and particularly when you've rehearsed something and and you know the climb really well, it feels like jogging or swimming or sort of other elemental movement patterns where it's just like your body doing what it's meant to do and it feels great, you know, it's like it's really nice. Do you ever surprise yourself still? Like that uh in training things, you know, I'm surprised that worked out and then and then stick with that kinesthetic sense. I've um been listening to an amazing book by Twyla Tharp. She's a choreographer. She was a ballerina, she choreographer and and she said that um what distinguishes, you know, sort of virtuosity from mastery is that when you start to surprise yourself. And I think you're certainly in that category of of virtuoso. Um how often does surprise come about? For me personally, that's maybe my favorite moment in climbing is when you surprise yourself. Um and this isn't so much with free soloing because with free soloing, you don't want to be surprised. But, uh, but with a but with a rope on, you know, you have moments all the time where you're sure you're about to fall because you're, you know, up against your physical limits or whatever, and then you stick a move that you were sure you weren't going to. Um, and you know, it doesn't happen that often, but when it does, you're like, "Oh, I exceeded my own expectations." It's like it's like the best feeling, you know. It happens from time to time. In In some ways, actually, I I was telling one of my friends, I think that that might be, uh, one of the ways in which I see aging. You know, like as I'm getting older as a climber, I think I surprise myself less often. You know, I think it's like a 24-year-old, you just don't know your own limitations that much, and you frequently surprise yourself where I'm like, "Wow, I really outdid myself. I really did something that I was sure I couldn't do, but I managed to do it." And now, as a recent 40-year-old, you know, like that happens from time to time, for sure, but not all the time, you know, it's like And And now, occasionally, I have things where I was like, "Oh, I was sure I could do that." And And then I failed, you know, and you're kind of like, "Oh, you can blame conditions, you can blame whatever." But, you're kind of like, "Oh, I really thought I would do that." And I And I fell off anyway, and you're like, "Damn it." What is the role of aging in climbing, uh, traditionally and how you're experiencing it? Like there fields of of science like mathematics where that the stereotype is, uh, you know, it's a young person's game. And then there fields like biology, which is a bit more incremental and people can have fantastic discoveries and long careers. The those are academic, uh, cerebral, uh, um, endeavors. But, you know, we have our understanding of this for every sport. Uh, for climbing, what's the lore for, um, climbing and for free soloists in particular? That it's an old man's game, it's a young man's game? Woman's game, excuse me. I don't I don't think anybody calls free soloing an old man's game. But, um, but no, but I I It could be. But, no, I think in general, climbing has more longevity than most sports just because it's relatively low impact on your body. It's very technique and like movement-focused, and so it's not just pure physical strength. That said, I mean, climbing is in the Olympics now, and the the winning the Olympics are all sort of 18 to 23-ish, you know, sort of same as gymnastics type of range. So, I think at the most elite levels of climbing performance, it's kind of similar to gymnastics, probably. But then to do interesting new things on real rock outdoors, I think there's a much wider latitude. You know, it's like And then even into your 50s and 60s, there are plenty of climbers who are leading expeditions to new places, developing new climbs, you know, you know, doing things that are noteworthy and sort of meaningful for the climbing community, even though they're not necessarily cutting-edge physically. So, I think there's a lot of a lot of opportunity for climbing, more than most sports. And And I think actually the other big thing with climbing is that in so many other sports, I think ball sports, you know, NBA, NFL, baseball, whatever, it's kind of like if you don't make the team, then you're done playing forever. Like you'll literally never play football again if you're not a professional football player. Whereas with climbing, even if you're not playing at the highest level, you can still go climb all the time, and you can still do cool climbs, you can still do things that matter, you can help teach, you can do whatever. And so, you can kind of like stay in the game much, much longer. You mentioned that climbing's in the Olympics now. We see a lot of sports like skateboarding, climbing now in the Olympics, and these were sports that traditionally were done, you know, people just go to go to where these things were done, and it wasn't always recorded because there wasn't social media back then. Well, more of the that there weren't smartphones, there weren't cameras, you you know. It's like it's not even about the social, it's about the whether or not you can record it easily. >> Mhm. But So, um I'm guessing there's a big influx of of young kids getting into this now. Do you see the sport progressing faster? And I'm also curious about the the culture, whether or not, you know, like anytime a sport um is is in the Olympics, the thing is like, "Oh, it's kind of {quote} sold out. Now it's going to change. It's going to become more commercial." So, what's the culture within climbing about um about this big expansion? What are your thoughts? I mean, personally, I'm way into it. I mean, I was a kid that got into climbing in the climbing gym, and and it's changed my life for the better, you know, like I love climbing. in it's great. You know, I can certainly see the sort of commercial influx from the Olympics or sort of like more mainstream adoption of climbing. But that's kind of great cuz I mean most of my friends are sort of climbing industry adjacent professionals in some ways, you know, like they make they're like coaches or dieticians or setters. Like they they make the climbs that people climb on. And so basically the bigger the industry gets the more people like that can make a living doing the thing they love to do even if they're not necessarily sponsored professionals at the highest level. So I'm kind of like, you know, a broadening industry is is kind of good for everybody. And mostly I mean climbing's awesome. Like if people enjoy you know, it's like why not get into climbing? It's like certainly I mean I think it's better than most other fitness modalities, you know, it's like oh why do CrossFit when you can go rock climbing? It's way cooler. I mean it certainly seems >> fun. That's for sure. And you can do it indoors or outdoors. There probably certain aspects you wouldn't want to do alone for safety reasons, but I think when people ask like what do you worry about with climbing culture and all that kind of stuff like with the Olympics and the the mainstream appeal. Kind of like, you know, if somebody wants to be a climber and only go to the climbing gym in a in a major city for their entire life like that's great. Like if they just want to climb plastic the rest of their life that's still better than going to CrossFit or doing whatever else. I'm like that's cool. Like you don't have to go climb El Cap to be a climber. I'm kind of like people who can do whatever they want and I think I think that's great for the sport. And and you are seeing standards rise very quickly right now sort of as a result. Just like better access to gyms, more kids getting into it. You just see talent rise faster. I come across social media accounts of parkour kids every once in a while doing absolutely insane stuff in urban terrains usually. What's the crossover if any between parkour and and climbing of the sort that you do? There's a little bit, not that much, but but climbers often like competition climbing like bouldering which is in the Olympics has definitely taken a slight turn towards parkourish sorts of moves like big run and jumps and like crazy swings and things like that. And so some old school climbers complain that it's like gotten a little too jumpy, that type of bouldering. Um but I'm kind of into it. I mean it's I don't know. This is all very like inside baseball. Like how do you separate like basically the highest level competitors are all very very strong. So then how do you separate these different competitors who are all climbing at an elite level. And one of the ways is complicated movement like that, like running jumps and coordination and things like that. So I don't know. I mean I think it's cool. Um I've actually met like a couple of professional parkour athletes who also climb. Uh and they are really good at a very particular sorts of things where you're like it's I mean it's amazing to see. Yeah, I mean I I find a lot of what they do terrifying but also awesome. I can't help myself but watch and uh just the motivation to work it out too. Like it in you know because some of these are are truly make or break or make or die um at least in the in the form they they put to social media. So I'm always curious like what goes into that. And you know having grown up skateboarding I mean you go around a city and you see stuff you know like oh that would be awesome. And so I mean just looking at a landscape natural or or urban landscape in a completely different way. I see a lot of parallels with climbing and parkour. And also you know I think of uh you at you know certainly at the level and kind of parallel with a guy like Tony Hawk who's been in the sport of skateboarding for a very long time. He's a amazing ambassador for the sport as it's gone through its various like you know peaks and valleys now in the Olympics. So I think climbing and and sports like skateboarding and surfing have a lot in common in this way subculture but then also gets popular. Yeah, but they're kind of niche and then they become kind of mainstream. But then even once they're mainstream they're still kind of cool, you know, like skateboarding. It's like definitely not like full punk rock anymore but you're like it's pretty cool, you know, like skateboarding still. And it's not that common still, you know, and that's the thing with climbing is I'm kind of like yeah, climbing's growing, it's becoming more mainstream. It's just never going to be you know soccer or something. You know what I mean? Like it's always going to be slightly niche, slightly countercultural cuz it's just you you it's just a smaller thing. Like it's just not playing basketball or something. Yeah, I'm intrigued by um the training aspects and the some of the fitness aspects. I agree that it um having only done it a little bit, I mean, I've been to a climbing gym once or twice. >> going to ask you. So, is it Yeah, I've gone up and down the wall a few times. I've belayed for people a few times, but I haven't by no means um you know, uh skilled at it. It'd be fun to to get into cuz I Happy birthday, by the way. Just turned 40. I'm turning uh 50 soon and um I think more about um I'm happy with my strength and endurance, but I like I think more about mobility now. Mhm. And also Climbing is great for that. Climbing is great for that and and there's a lot of interesting literature on brain longevity and just maintaining your cognition and the strength of the your of your distal body. So, toes and fingers, believe it or not. It's a correlate. Like my toe strength >> Isn't that I've always thought that's just a correlation, but that's not because Yeah, I'm like because grip strength is just a proxy for all like it means that you use your body a lot and so therefore you're probably you know, like when I read those things about like if you have strong grip, it means this and this and this. I'm like, "No, if you have a strong grip, it means that you do stuff all the time." And so, as a result of doing stuff all the time, you're probably sharper than than somebody who doesn't do stuff all the time. That's right. So, it's a correlate. Um at the same time, the the motor neurons that control like trunk movements and contraction of the trunk muscles, like as you go out from the midline, they are they're in layers in the spinal cord. So, they're literally like the the mus- the motor neurons that control like the core sit sit closer to the sit closer to in the spinal cord to the midline. And then, you know, across evolution like you know, we evolved from animals with fins and f- and wings and some of the same genes are used and eventually you get motor neurons that control like fine motor movements like this. And it is true that for some reason the motor neurons that control the the distal body, so toes and fingers, calves and forearms, are more vulnerable to age-related degeneration than the ones for the for the core. So, by So, it is possible, we don't know yet, that by maintaining strength of the of the distal body that you can actually um preserve motor neuron and cognitive function. There is more of a And you're set. And that's why I was curious how climbers, provided they don't fall and kill themselves, how they age. And there's other things here, too, because like in some sports, like football and rugby, people are getting their head head hit a lot. So >> That doesn't You don't tend to age well. But I always thought of climbers, you know, my time up in Yosemite, I'd see young guys like you and then I'd see these like old like these old climbers. I was like, man, these guys are in in incredible shape. They're lean, they're alive, they they seem cognitively fresh. So it seems like it's a sport where people hold onto their faculties pretty well. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think um you know, it's hard to say cuz there just aren't that many super old climbers. And then a lot of the ones that come to mind, like sort of famous old climbers, you know, I mean, they die the same way as that that everybody dies, you know, like cancer or heart disease or whatever, but like in their late 80s or whatever. Um No, I'm I'm I mean, I think climbing is a great way to age. I mean, I have a bunch of friends who are sort of 50s and 60s who are very fit. Like actually I mean, the it comes to mind is a this friend of mine who's a philosophy professor at UNLV at at the university, but he's incredibly jacked and I think he's 64 now. I think he just became the oldest person to climb a certain grade, like 5.14, which is like kind of an elite rock climbing grade. But I think he's maybe the oldest person to have done that now. But um but he once told me he said to me that he was at some hotel pool, like in middle America, like some conference or something, and some kid asked if he could touch his abs cuz he'd never seen He was like, are they real? You know, like real cuz he's like Yeah, when he's like that. Yeah, he's like a 48-year-old professor who's like shredded and some some kid in the pool was like, can I touch those? Is that real? You know, like never seen a thing like that. You know, it says a lot about him and about the state of our country right now. There's a crisis of of obesity that's very serious. It goes beyond aesthetics. Um yeah, I've I've thought about getting into climbing. I mean, it it's um The problem I had is I tried to just raw strength it. I just tried to pull up my weight. Obviously, that's that's foolish It's you gas out really fast. Yeah, that's a very common thing for adults. I mean especially men, especially somebody like who's already fit. And so you try to bring the tool you already have to it and you're like, "No, you got to drive with your legs, good technique, mobility, like you know, I like to say that anybody who tries climbing should think of it as climbing a really really steep staircase where it's like you're still walking up the stairs and you're using the handrail to for balance. But you're not pulling yourself up the handrail. And most of climbing is basically a steep staircase. You know, I mean especially outdoors and in climbing gyms is a little bit different cuz the wall is actually vertical. But outdoors the wall is almost always a little bit less than vertical. So it's like basically you're on a very very steep and technical staircase and then you're using the handrail like the handholds to keep you balanced on the wall. But your legs should always be driving you. I still haven't done Half Dome and um Never? You've done Clouds Rest a bunch of >> Rest a bunch of times, run Clouds Rest, wrecked Clouds Rest in it. But um Half Dome has those cables. Yeah, yeah, it I never was organized enough to do the sign-up early enough in the season. >> don't just do it after the permits. Oh. >> You know, you know the cables stay up all year. So when it like when it's out of season, they take the uprights down, but the cables just sit there and you can do it anytime. It's actually way better to do it post like after the season cuz there's no permit and there are no people. And it's like super chill. Okay, I definitely want to do it. >> do it do it off season. It's way better. >> my biggest concern is not that I'm going to fall, is that someone above me is going to fall. Are you really strong enough to just glance them off, you know, just like shrug them aside? Uh possibly. I did hear a lot of >> Ideally stop them. Yeah, ideally stop them. Um yeah, I'd love to do it. I've been going to Yosemite since I was in my teens. I love it up there. It's it's I wouldn't say it's my second home, but it's heaven. I mean it's as you know. And um actually one of the reasons I'm excited to talk to you among others is that I I would like more people to get into the national parks um and and really enjoy them cuz they're we have so many gems in Yosemite. The high country in Tuolumne Meadows to me is like is is heaven on earth. No, Yosemite I mean is a crown jewel. I mean it's the I I think it's the best best national park in the country. Yeah, people forget it's only about a 4-hour drive from the Bay Area or from Los Angeles. It's pretty quick. You go through a bunch of different landscapes and then boom, suddenly you're there. Yeah, and it's like paradise. It's incredible. I'm curious about things in free soloing that as a uninformed spectator, we think, "Oh, you know, that's the hardest part. That's That's the most difficult thing." But I imagine um in inside of the sport like any uh that there are things that are very difficult and maybe even perilous that we're not aware of. Like what are some of the non-obvious aspects of free soloing if they exist? Um because I always think, "Okay, you know, if I can imagine, "Oh, that's super tough." But that might be the easier or uh less tough. Usually they're these kind of hidden um I don't want to call them hidden dangers, but hidden dangers in a sport. What What are some things that the observer wouldn't wouldn't be aware of? Yeah, I'm I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the hidden dangers are. I would say though that the the obvious visual dangers like for a non-climber just watching free soloing, mhm, I think they generally misperceive all the dangers and risks involved. You know, they just see it and they're like, "That's crazy. That's whatever." You know, and like whatever they're bringing to it is probably not the actual case. Just because it's hard to visually tell what's challenging in climbing. You know, you're like, "That's a vertical wall." But if it's like a nice crack going up a vertical wall, that's actually quite easy and secure climbing. But then some of the other stuff, you know, if they're really small holes you're trusting your feet, I don't know. I mean, it's It's just really hard to judge that stuff visually. Like you have to do it to to experience it. But I think that that honestly the whole perception of risk around free soloing is maybe slightly misperceived by people. So with climbing in general, like if you go climbing with a rope, uh like if you're a traditional climber, like you're climbing with a rope and and gear and you're going to climb Half Dome, let's say. When you start climbing from the ground, you go some distance before you put your first piece of gear in cuz that's just kind of the nature of climbing. You go for a ways and you put in some gear, you clip your rope into it, and then you're protected, and then for whatever distance you're going, you're essentially free soloing to that point. You know, like there's always risk involved in climbing, because even if you have a rope on, depending on how far you're going above your last piece of gear, and you know, what the terrain is like, and whether or not the rock is good, and all these other factors, you know, you're more or less safe. And so, I think people look at free soloing as like this binary, like if you don't have a rope, that's dangerous. And you're kind of like, well, anytime you're climbing, there are dangers, or there could be, and you're constantly evaluating those and and and trying to mitigate them. And so, I think that's that's the big misperception, because easy free soloing is probably like if I if I'm somebody, you know, who's like an expert rock climber or whatever, I've been climbing 30 years. If I'm on an easy free solo, that's almost certainly safer than a very hard certain types of hard climbing with a rope on. You know, and most of my scariest experiences as a climber actually have been with a rope on, because with a rope, you're much more willing to push yourself into unknown terrain, cuz you're kind of like, surely there'll be something good just around the corner. And so, you keep going around the corner, and you keep not getting any good gear, and you're like, holy it's getting scarier and scarier. Are we allowed to curse? >> Sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, like >> Even at each other, if you want to curse at me. Yeah, perfect. But so, a lot of my scariest experiences have been with a rope on, because you're kind of like, I'm sure it'll get better, I'm sure it'll get better, and it keeps getting worse and worse, and then pretty soon, you're in some position where you're definitely going to die if you fall, but you never would have climbed into that position if you didn't have a rope on, cuz you're just so much more conservative when you're ropeless. And when you're ropeless, you're kind of like, if something seems wrong, you just go down. You know, cuz you're just not going to push that far. I saw the movie Meru. And that was pretty intense. Um that I mean, that's an example of pushing really freaking far with a rope on. You know, it's like because you have a rope, you're willing to just keep pushing into the unknown, pushing into the unknown. But then you wind up in a position where you're like, this is pretty freaking extreme, you know? It's like I mean, you saw the film, it's it's all totally insane. Yeah, it is insane, and I feel like ice and snow bring a whole other dimension. Yeah, I think that um in your sport, in free soloing like the the idea from the spectator side is you know like these guys like one fall and they're and they're dead, right? Um I've heard you say before that's actually not true. I mean yeah, it's kind of true in that Yeah, like yeah, it's true that in most places if you fall off you're going to die. But like when I started free soloing as as a as a kid, not that I like started and then only did that, but on my first free solo is when I was young in back of my mind it would be like if you slip you'll die. You know, and the reality is that there are tons of places where your foot can slip and nothing else moves. You know, like your hands are locked on, you're holding on tight, and your foot slipped and you're just going to like oh my foot slipped and you keep climbing and it's no big deal. Um I mean there are also some places where if your foot slips you're going to die for sure. And the key is differentiating between those. But I think when I started, you know, it was like if anything happens you'll die. And as you do it more you're actually like no, I mean a lot of things can happen and it'll be fine. You just have to make sure that the wrong thing doesn't happen at the wrong time. I was surprised to hear you say that uh yes, free soloists die, but oftentimes they die not free soloing. They die doing other things. Uh I'm fascinated by this not through a morbid fascination, but for a number of reasons. So uh maybe you could elaborate on that a little bit. >> Yeah, there's a there's a quote in the film Free Solo where a friend of mine Tommy Caldwell, who's a very well-known climber, says something like all the people who are big free soloists are dead now. And it kind of implies like you know, free soloing is dangerous and they all died soloing. But the reality is that basically none of them died soloing. Like one or two soloists have died soloing. Though my preferred statistic is that no one has ever died doing something cutting edge. So like no one has ever died pushing the envelope like doing something extreme. There've been a couple free soloists who have died free soloing easy terrain, like just out doing something casual and maybe a hold breaks or maybe something happens, like it's impossible to know what because they die. Um but then the bulk of other people who are sort of known for free soloing have died either in parachuting accidents like wingsuiting or base jumping. Or a one got swept out to sea by a rogue wave, it's kind of freak thing. Um one died in a car accident, you know, just like things like you know, it's basically just ways that people die. So, all that to say it's not clear that free soloing is the most dangerous. We have a friend um who unfortunately is dead now, Ken Block, who was a famous rally car driver and um did uh with our photographer here at the podcast, Mike Blaback, and and film crews with DC, did uh he developed he was one of the founders of DC, like DC shoes, DC clothing etc. Uh rally car. Um unfortunately he died in a snowmobiling accident. So, something very like kind of conventional for his daily life. He lived out in Utah and you know, um obviously a huge tragedy. Um and then you go look at kind of people who do quote-unquote extreme sports, for lack of a better term, and you find that um it's fairly common for people who are at the peak of their of a of a field, of a sport, to um die doing something else that they really enjoy. And you kind of wonder like, are they um pushing themselves, or is it that they're they're just too a little too relaxed? Cuz as you said, rarely do free soloists die like in the most difficult aspects of the climb. So, maybe it's that letting go of the mental engagement. Like there's a change in the threshold of what they consider dangerous. So, unless they need to be locked in, there's just some lack of attention to detail. This is my way of trying to save your life, basically. >> I appreciate it. Anything you're doing besides free soloing, be very, very careful, please. Reign it in. Yeah, we need to No, I mean, I also would suspect that all of the people that we're talking about are all just a little they're just bigger risk takers in general. They're just more willing to do things like drive quickly and you know, do whatever. Um just more willing to take risk in their life and and I suppose sooner or later those things catch up with you, or they can. Yeah. Though that said, with free soloing, two of the world's best free soloists from the previous generations are still alive, you know, older men just living their best lives, doing their thing. Still free soloing? Yeah, um maybe not at like a super high level, Maybe not pushing themselves hard, but yeah, like certainly could. So, man and Peter Croft, he's a Canadian but has lived in the US forever. He was like my childhood hero growing up and he's an incredible soul. Actually, there's a film with him or a a scene with him in the film Free Solo. He's kind of like a They kind of frame him as like a mentor figure though honestly he wasn't a mentor cuz I was too afraid to ever even talk to him cuz he was like such a personal hero. But I mean he's such a He's incredible. He's super nice guy. And so I'm we're both sponsored by The North Face now so we're friends we're on the same team and so I've like hung out with him at events and things and I was having dinner with him once and I was kind of like, "Oh, at what point did you kind of end the cutting-edge free soloing?" And he was like, "Oh, actually I did a couple of my hardest solos like in terms of grades like not necessarily the most cutting-edge but kind of the hardest grades like within the last several years." And I was like, "Really?" And he'd still, you know, he's still just like kind of doing stuff and fit and he's psyched and and he's got to be I I don't know. I don't want to offend him but he's got to be like mid-50s or like maybe 60. Like, you know, he's Awesome. >> He's uh yeah, and he's still incredible. He's still climbing all the time. And even on his rest days he goes down into the same climbing areas to hang out with his friends and chitchat and like take his dog to the cliff and stuff. So, you know, I look at somebody like him who's basically made an entire life of free soloing and I'm kind of like, "You know, if you do it carefully, you you know, make good decisions, I don't think it has to be sketchy." How awesome is it that you're friends and co-workers with one of your childhood heroes? >> Oh, it's the best. That's actually I think one of the best things about being a professional climber. It's so many of the people that I was that I looked up to as a kid, you know, are now our friends and peers and things and you're like, "Oh, it's so great." Wow, that's awesome. >> Yeah, yeah, you get to like hang out with your heroes and you're like, "Oh, it turns out they're actually really nice guys." >> Yeah, no, it's amazing. There's some young kid out there now thinking the same. He's like, "I'm too afraid to go up to Alex and say hello." Uh and uh They should just say hello. Yeah. I don't know about maybe working together, right? Yeah, totally. I mean in the same way that I was like so afraid ever talk to Peter when I was young and then ultimately now he's just another nice guy and we're friends. We climb together. It's great. Sort of like, yeah, anybody should just say hi. You know, it's like if they're at the if we're at the cliff, like come chat. You know, it's like we're all doing the same thing. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin, mineral, probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than 13 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been drinking it every day since. For the past 13 years, AG1 has been the same original flavor. They've updated the formulation, but the flavor has always remained the same. And now, for the first time, AG1 is available in three new flavors: berry, citrus, and tropical. All the flavors include the highest quality ingredients in exactly the right doses to together provide support for your gut microbiome, support for your immune health, and support for better energy and more. So, now you can find the flavor of AG1 that you like the most. Well, I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially when I mix it with water and a little bit of lemon or lime juice. That's how I've been doing it for basically 13 years. Now, I really enjoy the new berry flavor in particular. It tastes great and I don't have to add any lemon or lime juice. I just mix it up with water. If you'd like to try AG1 and these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit that includes five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit of five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2. Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available. It's also ethically sourced. Maui Nui hunts and harvests wild axis deer on the island of Maui. This solves the problem of managing an invasive species while also creating an extraordinary source of protein. As I've discussed on this podcast before, most people should aim for getting 1 g of quality protein per pound of body weight each day. This allows for optimal muscle protein synthesis, while also helping to reduce appetite and support proper metabolic health. Given Maui Nui's exceptional protein to calorie ratio, this protein target is achievable without having to eat too many calories. Their venison delivers 21 g of protein with only 107 g per serving, which is an ideal ratio for those of us concerned with maintaining or increasing muscle mass while supporting health. They have venison steaks, ground venison, and venison bone broth. I personally love all of them. In fact, I probably eat a Maui Nui venison burger pretty much every day. And if I don't do that, I eat one of their steaks. And sometimes I also consume their bone broth. And if you're on the go, they have Maui Nui venison sticks, which have 10 g of protein per stick with just 55 calories. I eat at least one of those a day to meet my protein requirements. Right now, Maui Nui is offering Huberman podcast listeners a limited collection of my favorite cuts and products. It's perfect for anyone looking to improve their diet with delicious, high-quality protein. Supplies are limited, so go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get access to this high-quality meat today. Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman. Do most climbers, um, as they're coming up, if if they have aspirations to be, you know, great free soloists or or other types of climbers, um, do they tend to work and do other things or is this like a you're like all in, you're you're it's lifestyle, you live in a van? I mean, uh, you can do that also after achieving, um, some degree of financial success. We know you've done that, we can talk about that, but is it the kind of thing where you have to give up other aspects of life in order to get really, really good at it? That's an interesting question. I'm not totally sure because in some ways, so it depends what you mean by achieving success as a climber because if you're trying to climb the hardest grades or go to the Olympics or things like that, in some ways you're almost better off, uh, being a university student or something, like having a structured schedule that in some ways limits the amount of that you can climb because you know, I don't know enough about other sports but I I suspect this is akin to like powerlifting or something where it's like if you're trying to be really really strong, you kind of only need to do a little bit every couple days and then recover. And so for a sort of elite physical training for climbing, you really only need, you know, say three or four hour sessions four or five days a week and then it's like what do you do with the rest of your time? And so like you might as well have a job or and so a lot of my friends who like write code for a living or you know, do things like that are very very strong climbers because of the the the the schedule that allows the structure. Um that said, I think if you want to be a great free soloist or like a big adventure climber, you're probably better off living in a van and just doing the thing non-stop because for that you're not trying to have that peak muscular performance, you're trying to just learn a skill and do something all the time and so then like hours of practice I think matter more. Anyway. Maybe we can talk a little bit about recovery as long as you're talking about, you know, number of hours that one puts in. Um I'm sure your recovery looks different than it used to. Um but what what do you do to recover between sessions? Are you big believer in sauna, cold? Is it Is it just basically sleep? No, like push my three-year-old on the swings, you know, like that's how I recover. So I like play with the kids on the swings and and I try to I mean I you know, I I I try to eat relatively well. I try to sleep enough. Like I do all the basics for recovery. But um but no, I mean I basically just survive in between. I was actually just joking with somebody that I think you know, as a as a 24-year-old living by myself in a van I would have crazy days of climbing and then on a rest day I would like binge watch an entire season of some show while eating an entire flat of Oreos just like never even leave the bed of my van and then the next day go out and like do a speed record on something or just be like I'm I'm so psyched. You know, and now I'm like I'm definitely not doing that now or at least No, I haven't done that in forever cuz I I don't have the time and I don't have uh Yeah, so I think now it takes a little more effort to recover and it's just a little slower probably. So, all >> hard to say though because a lot of that's just having kids and and just having different demands of of time and life. But it sounds like climbers are are pretty uh grassroots in their in their training and techniques. Like, you know, in a lot of other areas Yeah, I mean, I was living in a van. I was basically like, you know, super low overhead, no no team, no support. I'm just living in a car doing the thing nonstop for you know, a decade. And so, that's a pretty scrappy approach and I think that that in the years since then, climbing has professionalized a little bit and there's a little more money, there's a little more support and there's just a higher level of competition, I think. Um it'd be harder to to achieve things doing just that now. I think you'd have to have a little more of a plan. Yeah, I can't help but sense that hyperbaric chambers and red light and massage guns and all that are going to be making their way into the climbing culture. >> for sure are there. Yeah, massage massage guns are there. >> Yeah. I try to like roll out or whatever. Even when I was living in my van, I would stretch and roll out and do those types of things cuz you just kind of have to stay supple. Yeah, how do you feel? How's your body feel? Well, I mean, right now I think pretty good. I don't know. Yeah, when I'm um I live in Las Vegas. When I'm at home, I try to uh see this bodyworker in town once a week. Pat, sweet Pat, he's the man. And so, uh you know, I think of that as kind of like a basic just taking care of you know, making it's like an oil change. It's like making sure the engine runs smoothly. Mhm. And and I think as a result of bodywork like that, I I haven't had any major like overuse injuries in in years. So, like that's that's pretty good for me. Awesome. Yeah, I'm maybe it's just because it's uh historically it was what I knew, but I'm seeing so many parallels with skateboarding where like there was this time when no skateboarders lifted weights or did any kind of fitness. Then that started to happen. Actually, Danny Way who jumped the Great Wall of China, he was kind of the first person in skateboarding to like he would do like neck training cuz he had broken his neck surfing in Newport. And he was doing like these um you know like the where you like swing the ball above your head. He was doing core work, and I remember back then thinking I sort of left skateboarding at that point. And I was thinking like like skateboarders are just like really have a problem with this because it wasn't consistent with the culture. Now there are a lot of guys who who work out and take care of their bodies, but there are still a lot of guys who absolutely kill it. They're incredible, and their energy drink is like a beer, and their uh quote unquote neutropic is cigarettes, and and they murder it. They're super good. And and so I I like these sports where it's like you can't get around just investing a a massive number of hours doing it. And then there you can either take the the kind of rock and roll track into it, or you can take the kind of self-care track, and sometimes people cross over, but you know it works either way. It really does. Climbing still has that exact same thing going on where you can kind of go either way. I do think though that the self-care track will obviously win out long-term. I mean that's the thing with climbing being in the Olympics and just the professionalism all that. I mean obviously self-care is better for you long-term. It's like you know everybody knows that. That said, you still see a lot of very provision climbers who yeah exactly just kind of party, go hard. I mean cuz so much of climbing just comes down to the effort when you're doing the thing. Like if you go climbing several days a week and you try your absolute hardest every time you're climbing, you're going to get pretty freaking good. You know, whether you do red light therapy or like any other weird other stuff or not. So it's like I mean it really just comes down to your effort doing the thing. So yeah, I mean you could live in a I mean a lot of climbers especially in the past lived on a diet of of you know cigarettes and coffee and and freaking beer. And you know you can you can you can get by that way. Yeah, the 1970s, 80s approach. It's not ideal. It's not ideal. A friend of mine Tom Bilyeu, he he is very successful in business. He also has a podcast. He was saying to me the other day. He goes, "Yeah, basically when young people ask me you know how to get good at whatever business or anything." He just tells them, "Um work as if smartphones didn't exist. Meaning when you're bored go work on the thing. When you don't have any like if you get rid I'm not encouraging people get rid of their smartphone, but I'm curious about your relationship to technology because I think nowadays even though there are people training for the Olympics and whatnot that it is very hard to to disengage from pressures of sponsors, pressures of just sheer communications, right? Um and if you're coming up this idea that you always have to be in contact with people. You limits the total number of reps that you're that you get physically but also mentally. Cuz I imagine there was a lot of time sitting back in bed and thinking about climbing. Just like I used to sit back in bed and think about experiments and you know when I was in graduate school now I'd probably that phones didn't exist I'd probably be on my phone. I used to think about experiments and figures and what would this work and that work. So what are your thoughts on kind of a mental engagement separate from climbing? No, I think that's that's definitely a big thing. I mean I think I've I've thought in the past that in some ways I feel kind of lucky that I came up when I did in climbing where it's like sort of pre-smartphone, pre-social, pre you know, you just live in your car and you do the thing and that's it and and that's your whole lifestyle. I mean currently, you know, I I have all the social media accounts and things but I don't have any of the apps on my phone. I have a friend that manages it for me. I like send all the content to her where she posts stuff and so it's a nice way to sort of disconnect myself from from scrolling aimlessly. I don't really have the time anymore anyway, you know, it's like I'd rather play with my kids than than for sure scroll. You know, it's like but no, I mean that's that's tough. I mean I think it'd be hard to be a kid now growing up like thinking that that's the norm that you like have to be connected that you have to be capturing everything, you know, documenting and then sharing it and posting and just all the stuff. I've always felt like the thing about being a professional climber is that you just have to be a good climber. Like first and foremost the key to being a professional climber is being able to climb really well. And like the most important thing is doing the thing. And I just think when you get caught up in all the the posting, sharing, streaming, all the whatever, that's not doing the thing. You know, but but it's easy to conflate them and it's I don't know. Yeah, no, I think it'd be really hard. Yeah, I agree completely. And and the hidden secret is that if you want something interesting to show on social media, the key is to not be on social media so you have something to bring to it. >> Totally. It's just so hard to actually be good at something and it's And then this is goes back to what we were just talking about with free soloing and perceived risk and all that kind of stuff. It's just really easy to make something look rad soloing-wise. Like, you know, I could climb I could climb the outside of this building and it would like look insane. It would get tons of likes. People would think it's cool. But it's not cutting edge. It's not cool. It's not even hard. Like it's not it's it's it's whatever. But to actually do something that's cutting edge or newsworthy in in climbing it's it's pretty freaking hard, you know? And and the challenge with with social and with public, all that kind of stuff, is that it's just so easy to I don't want to say to fake it because it's not like people are out there like trying to be duplicitous or like to to trick you, but it's just you can get the same splash with none of the effort, you know, and through through social stuff, I think. You're like, "Oh, I just did something easy and people thought it was amazing. Let's call that good." And you're like, "Well, that's just not good cuz it's easy. It's freaking, you know, it's like it's not cutting edge. It's not rad." I mean, you clearly go after big big goals. I mean, it's it's it's a it's a giant goal. I I think it really stands and I know you've been told this many times before. So, um if it embarrasses you in a positive way, then great. Um I mean, it it stands as perhaps at least one of the the most impressive physical feats i- in history because the risk-consequence uh scenario there was you fall, you can potentially die. There may have been moments along the along the climb where >> moments, yeah. >> Yeah, moments >> right above a ledge where you're like, "Oh, wow." >> so okay. So, and it's and it's so like you to to point out those moments as opposed to all the other moments. It really speaks to your mindset. Um but I think that going after big things, I mean, you know, uh you know, building rockets to go to the moon. I remember when I was a kid, Dean Weymouth had to jump the Great Wall of China to do it live. Someone had died trying it on a mountain bike. I remember think I watched it on a little screen this big and I was like, I've known that guy since we're out of touch now, but for the most part, but since he was like 13 and he was always going after big things, jumping out of helicopters, you know, jumping the Great Wall of China, like, you know, and then there are people who just push themselves. And so what what I wonder is on a daily basis, when you climb, um do you ever just climb for fun? When you climb, are you always working on something? And there's this famous scene in Free Solo like more or less immediately after you got down from the climb, your your finger boarding again and like you're you're training and you're enjoying your your routine, which by the way is consistent with keeping the dopamine flowing for process as opposed to like the postpartum depression that many people experience after a big feat is completed, selling a big company, etc. You avoid all that by doing exactly what you're doing. But then how quickly did your mind pivot to like, okay, what's next? Uh in the domain of climbing because I realize you've had two children, you you have got other aspects of your life, but like where's your mind in terms of where you want to take your life and your climbing? Yeah, on the one hand I set big goals, I guess, you know, something like El Cap. But the thing is I would actually say that's more of the outgrowth of setting consistent little goals like all the time. Like I basically always have a running to-do list of like what am I doing to- morrow? What am I doing today? What am I trying to do this week? And that extends to climbing as well with like what are all the little things I can be doing? Like what are the little things I can tick this week? You know, I have my climbing journal goes back to 2005 or six or something. So basically everything I've ever climbed is is logged with you know, difficulty and times and whatever. And so I'm constantly trying to tick things as a climber, you know, just like to do new climbs that I haven't done before. And so I mean I think like actually my day day climbing yesterday could be a good example of this. So, yesterday my wife and I dropped off our older daughter at school, went to the cliff, uh did a day of sport climbing, uh and then picked up our daughter on the way home. It's like a perfect day like that where you can kind of like make it all work. And I'm not going to be able to go to that cliff very often this season just because of travel and work and and life, basically. And so, I don't want to have any big project there because I just won't have time to do it. You know, I'm trying to set my goals appropriately where I'm like, "Oh, there's no point trying to do something that would take me a month or two to achieve if I only have 3 days." And so, I had a goal for that day of trying to do this very particular little combination of routes that I hadn't done before. It's just something new, something interesting. It's not that hard. But, then we got there and it was it was like the worst conditions. It was like 86° when we parked the car. And so, you know, it's like you're trying to work out in like horrendously hot. And it was also that kind of monsoony, so it was very humid. So, we got to the wall and it's like disgusting. And I was kind of like, "Well, you know, it's a training day. Like, whatever." And so, I tried to do this new combination of routes. Ultimately, I failed on it. I fell at the very freaking top of the wall. I was like so maxed. And didn't do it. Uh I'll probably get a chance to go back on Monday and hope and I'll for sure do it then. Um but, you know, it's like a very small goal. Like, this isn't cutting-edge like big. This isn't This isn't even cool at all. Like, my friends won't even care. You like they'll think it's stupid. But, but it's nice for me to have a reason for me to try my hardest for that particular day of climbing. And I think that the big goals come as a result of all these little things. You know, like if day by day you're constantly doing something that's a little bit new, a little bit different, a little bit harder, you know, whatever seems like the appropriate challenge for that day. I think that looking back at 20 years of climbing outside nonstop, that the big things have just come as a natural outgrowth of all these little things. You do like enough little things all the time and then every once in a while something big happens. And so, I don't know. Like, you know, but I have to-do lists going back like years of like goals and all these aspirations. And you know, some years I only do half of them. Some years I do a third of them. And then, you know, something like free soloing El Cap sat on a list like that literally for years and it kept floating to the next year, to the next year. Cuz you get into Yosemite, you look at the wall and you're like, nah, that's not you know, you're like totally out of the question. And so, you just like punt to the next year. And so, yeah, I mean, sometimes the goals don't happen, sometimes they do, but you kind of just have to let it play out, you know, it's more like the day-to-day little challenges. I love how matter-of-fact you are about it. You are wired different. >> You think? I mean, Um well, maybe not. I mean, because um like and this is a a a vastly um less uh high-risk, high-consequence endeavor, but like um public speaking doesn't make me it doesn't raise my level of of cortisol or autonomic arousal at all, cuz I've done so much of it, right? >> well practiced, yeah. >> Yeah, I mean, just yeah, so um sometimes I'll, you know, I'll think like, oh, I'm like a little more keyed up than I want to be and I'll I know how to calm myself down. >> actually I feel the same way with public speaking now, but that's after years of practice, cuz it used to be it used to be so stressful for me. Like so, yeah, no, I was I was so shy. >> does work like everyone else's. >> Yeah. No, I mean, exactly. That's why I hate all this stuff. It's like, oh, you're just wired differently. Cuz I'm like, no, I know that, you know, like yeah, public like speaking in front of a class in school was like mortifying. But now, after years of doing keynote speeches to like giant groups, I'm sort of like, no, no, it's super chill. But, you know, that's all learned. >> Yeah, forgive me for saying you're wired different. I think that, you know, when you did free solo, there were a number of news programs that like took advantage of the fact they put you in a brain scanner, you know, this is my field of neuroscience, you know, his amygdala might not be activated the same way as other people's, but I would have thought, and I think it's the case now, you you confirmed, that it's really domain specific. Like you've done so much climbing, you have so many reps there, that you're familiar with the contingencies. And so, it's not that you can't experience fear, it's that you're not placing yourself into truly fearful circumstances climbing. But, the fact that public speaking was an issue means that your threat sensors and the amygdala and related circuits work perfectly fine. >> With that particular like scanning an fMRI, you know, they show you a bunch of black mark pictures and it's like whether or not that triggers the fear response. And I was like, well, obviously looking at pictures isn't going to trigger my fear response. But I'm like, had they thrown a snake into the fMRI with me, like that would have triggered my fear response, you know, if there were like giant spiders like crawling over me, like that would probably would, too. And so, I was like, no, obviously I feel fear. I just I'm just not afraid of black and white photos, you know. >> Right. That's what they used? Oh, yeah, like angry faces and that kind of the faces. >> Um uh it wasn't even faces. It was like random stuff, like, I don't know, like a gun and then like a light socket, you know, some things that are like neutral, some things that are >> should have designed the experiment. My lab used to work on fear. Yeah, I'm not trying to be disparaging of the research. My lab used to work on fear. We use VR. That's how I met Michael Muller, our our friend in common. He took me down to Guadalupe. We did two times. Uh we went down there 2016 and 2017 uh doing cage exit diving with great whites filming with uh to get the VR. And I'll tell you in in real life it's a hell of a lot scarier than it is Totally than in VR. But uh along the lines of, you know, dying when you're doing the other thing, uh not that the main thing, the cage exit part ended up being a lot safer. I had an air failure while in the cage. I was on that hookah line, and I was alone in the cage when it happened. And I'll tell you that was a lot more terrifying than being out of the cage with the sharks cuz when you're out of the cage you you're on scuba, and you have some degree of control over, you know, you can shoot for the surface. When you're in the cage and you run out of air and you're alone, you're just terrified and you're you're hosed, no pun intended. You're not hosed at all. So, you know, it it speaks to this thing that like when there's this big scary thing and you're really locked in, you often miss the the more trivial-seeming but real danger that's close up. >> But this is I think one of the thing one of the real values of climbing is I think that as a climber you spend all your time thinking about risk and managing risk and mitigating risk and all these kind of things. And so, I think that um I don't want to like toot my own horn too much, but I do feel good at evaluating risks like that, you know, like what is the actual dangerous thing? Like, what's sketchy about the situation? And it just often isn't the thing that people are looking at. You know, and that's what I was talking about earlier with like people watching video free soloing or whatever else are like that's sketchy and I'm like well, you know, might be in some ways but probably not for all the reasons that you're thinking. You know what I mean? Like the the obvious visual thing is probably not the the the big challenge. And it sounds a little cliche, but you're doing what you love. You know, it's it's interesting. I think one of the biggest risks that um I think about now um as I get older is the non-daily lethal risk of, you know, grinding it out in a job you don't like and then, you know, one day you wake up and you're like wow, there's there's no time machine. Like I can't go back and get that vitality and that time. >> doing? Yeah, and and that's where I think this this idea of, you know, doing what you love really counts. Whether or not you have to live in a van and do nothing else or whether or not you can also go to school, you know, but doing doing something that you love very very much. >> way you're going to die. Either way you're going to die. >> you may as well die having done a lot of things you're really excited about than die regretting all the things you didn't do. Totally. >> I I I think that that actually that exact mindset really helped inform my whole climbing journey in a way. It's like my father died when when I when I was 19 and he died of a heart attack unexpectedly just freak thing running through an airport uh at age 55. And you know, and I think for a young for a teenager that makes an impression where you're sort of like oh, like this could end at any moment. And actually in both my grandfathers had just died like at roughly the same time. So I think for an impressionable, you know, teen you're sort of like oh, everybody dies. Like do you get to do all the things that you want to do before you go? And and I think my father and my father was a community college professor taught language and uh you know, he ostensibly lived a risk-free life, you know, like relatively sedentary. I mean he traveled widely. Like he was great, but but by any risk perception thing you'd be like oh, he's a professor. Like he's he's he's fine. And yet he still died young and probably would have preferred to do a lot of other things before he went. I'm sort of like, you know, it's just a reminder that you got to you got to do all these things. Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about your philosophy on death and and time and kind of life arc and and you've already started. So, thank you for that because I would say most of my friends who started families young are people who these are male friends whose dads died young. And so, they had this very keen sense of the finite duration of of life. And you know, Steve Jobs talked about this. So, like you're you know, very and he died young. He seemed to have some sense of how long he was going to live and really wanted to pack things in. And I don't know why that was. He was adopted, so I don't know if he even knew how long his parents lived, etc. But barring accident or injury, you know, we don't really know when we're going to die. But sometimes I think we get the sense based on relatives. And you know, I can remember a time in my life when I of course I knew I was going to die, but I lived in a way that I just I felt like I had all the time in the world despite pursuing things. And I think with each passing year, I'm like, oh wow, like the walls Yeah, like it's winding down. Yeah, like we got to get get the show on the road. And I've done things I wanted to do, but it's it's interesting that um uh you know, it's it does seem that like having a parent die has a has a profound impact on on where you set that horizon. You realize like today is part of an arc that has an end point. And we know that, but we often don't live into that realization. Yeah, no, I I totally agree with that. I mean and I you say we know that, but I actually think that we don't talk about that enough. You know what I mean? I think most people live with a little too much open end cuz nobody wants to talk about death. Nobody wants to talk about, you know, like the consequences of like cuz people think it's morbid or it's just not. But thing is like we're all going to freaking die. You know, it's like are we going to be proud of what we did before we died? Like I don't know. I mean yeah. We'll see. It's like kind of cliche to be like, oh, better to die young and you know, burn brightly and all that kind of stuff. But you know, to some extent I think there's I think there's a middle ground where you're like it's better to try hard and and do things that you're proud of and you know, either way you're going to die. I agree. I mean, I think there is something interesting to this 27 effect, you know, it's so many like rock and roll musicians die at 27. >> It's their quarter life crisis. >> Yeah, quarter life crisis. I've never heard of the quarter life crisis. You never heard of quarter like all my friends have gone through a quarter life crisis. >> Oh, really? Yeah, kind of. >> that when does that happen? Well, like 25, you know, 27. >> Interesting. No, I was just so focused on becoming a neuroscientist. I didn't know what else I would do besides that at 25. I think I was just so locked in, but I've always been a little bit obsessive. Have you always been a little bit like whatever you're into, you're into? I guess it's been climbing. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was just lucky to get into climbing when I was 10. So, it's just something that I've just been into forever. So, did you play Legos as a kid or did you have any >> Yeah, and I was psycho about my Legos. >> psycho about Legos. >> Yeah, yeah, psycho. Like I didn't have a bed in my room because I had Legos covered across the whole floor. Basically, I slept in a corner and I just had Legos all over. Awesome. >> Kind of psycho. Do you see some of this in in your kids? Not quite that yet, but they're pretty young, so it's hard to tell. But, um yeah, we'll see we'll see. We'll see. I kind of think you know, it's all about having personality. Like do a thing, do it well, like get excited about things. I mean, there's just so many people on Earth and they all do different things. Like you might as well be the person to do that one particular thing and just like really do it. No, I agree. That's the juice. I mean, I mean, I think for some of us like I just know from my own life experience I like I thought I was certainly I just get into skateboarding. Many of my friends became professional skateboarders. Got really good at or worked in the industry. And early on I was getting hurt and I realized I'm not very good at this. And then when I finally plugged into academics and learning I was like this is the thing. >> loved it and it and then eventually I pivoted to this thing which I didn't anticipate, but I do think that going all in on something is a it provides a really wonderful feedback loop that one can like you feel makes you feel alive. Yeah, you're like doing a thing. You're excited about >> Especially when it's hard. Especially when it's hard. I've literally spent my whole life basically like all in on climbing and and I'm still I just I just love going rock climbing. You know, it's like I mean, I think that's really the the goal of parenting is to help your kid find something that they're that psyched about. Like something that they can commit to and something that will drive them, something they're passionate about. And so, you know, I mean, we'll see with with our kids, but it's like the idea is just to let them experience enough things that they can find whatever they whatever gets them out of bed every day. They certainly are in the right environment to flourish with it. You mentioned that climbing's in the Olympics. I could see and I've observed in other sports where the parents are kind of more obsessive than the kid and then the kid burns out on it. If you I read Andre Agassi's book Open, which is basically a story of his dad pushing him to play a game he did not want to play. >> Yeah, that's that's maybe the best sports memoir ever. That's like that's a great uh it's a great book. Yeah, great book. Yeah, his dad was like a boxer and basically trained him in tennis like a boxer. Yeah, so it's sort of like the light-handed approach of of like I think kids know. I think I mean, you kind of let them forage, right? >> we're we're we're taking the light-handed approach for sure. I mean, our kids will obviously know how to climb because that's what we do all the time and um but so far we just go hiking. Like we haven't forced them to climb. We have a little bit of a home gym at at home like a little climbing garage. And so, the girls can, you know, play on the wall whenever they want to, but there's certainly never any pressure to do anything. I read um and please correct me if this is is inaccurate, but that it was during college that you had some family members pass away and when you really leaned into just climbing more. Um I think it's somewhere on the internet that you were climbing out in Indian Rock, which is interesting to me because I went to graduate school in Berkeley and lived in Berkeley for a long time and You went to Cal? I went to Cal for my master's. And then I lived in Berkeley even when I was a post-doc at Stanford. I love Berkeley. >> like, you went from Cal to Stanford? You don't have to do that. >> the enemy. Yeah, it's like Yeah. Did they take your >> Born at Stanford, trained at Stanford, and still spent a lot of time at Berkeley. I liked the culture in Berkeley then and I liked the food. So, I used to take pizzas from the cheese board up to Indian Rock. So, while you were climbing Indian Rock, I was eating and picnicking on Indian Rock. Um It's amazing. So, would you just pull little solo journeys out there? This is By the way, folks, a big steep rock, but on one face it's it's gradual. It literally has like rock couches where couples go on dates and you eat some pizza and hang out and get an amazing view. Yeah, overlooking the city. >> Yeah, so you were climbing up the back of it, which is anything but uh Well, actually I was mostly traversing the bottom of it. Um there's tons of like basically you can contour over the whole base of the rock and so you can climb for, you know, a couple hundred feet basically without touching the ground. So, you just go back and forth doing laps and Yeah, cool. I mean, from where I was living at Berkeley, there's only, I don't know, like a 30-minute walk to Indian Rock or something. So, I basically wasn't going to class. I was just strolling to Indian Rock and traversing the wall back and forth. And and then that's why I dropped out after 1 year at Berkeley. It's kind of like, I don't know why I'm at university if I'm not actually Actually, it's it's more complicated than that cuz that year I got into the youth worlds like international thing. And so, I was going to take the semester off to go to worlds and travel and climb a little bit. And so, now I've just taken, you know, whatever, like 30 35 semesters off or something. You're on leave of absence. Yeah, exactly. No, I think I think after some point they were like, "You're done." Yeah, yeah, I think they closed it. But um It worked out. It worked certainly worked out. Yeah, the thing that we find ourselves doing when um we should be doing something else in in the positive sense of it. Like I mean, that often is the thing. Like it's with that you're obsessed over. Yeah. I mean, it's just hard to know with that stuff though because obviously for most people they probably should get an education and get a job of some kind. Like even if you're a really passionate climber, I mean, most people probably aren't going to make a living as a professional climber cuz it's just too small an industry and, you know, the depends on your level and everything. I mean, I think I got kind of lucky. I mean, in a lot of ways I got lucky. Also just because I I like soling and it's like such a niche and not that many people do it and the and the level just wasn't that high. And so, you know, I sometimes joke, it's easy to be the best if you're the only one doing it. You know, it's like it's easy to compete as the only person in the field and you're kind of like, "Well, that makes it so." And so, you know, I think I got lucky in a lot of ways like that. And so, yeah, most people probably should finish university and and climb as they can. That said, I mean, if you love doing a thing, it makes sense to maybe build your life around how you can do that thing as much as possible just because it keeps you energized and fired up and, you know, makes the rest of your life better. I think it was Ryan Holiday that said that if you don't know what to do with your life and you're still trying to figure it out, definitely stay in college. Because, you know, there are all these tales of like Mark Zuckerberg leaving Harvard and Steve Jobs dropping out of Reed College and um Alex Honnold leaving Berkeley and uh uh and eventually becoming the the person that you are now. Um but you had a direction. There was another thing to lean into. It wasn't just, "Oh, I don't like this. I don't want to be here." Yeah, I mean, if you >> have nothing, then you drop out and you just go play video games in your basement or something like that, that's obviously not that's not better than going to school. Like, you're better off going to school and broadening your horizons and doing whatever. But, yeah, I mean, I thought I was just taking some time off and and I thought that eventually I'd become a mountain guide or something or like teach at summer camps or I don't know, you know, because especially at the time the climbing industry was so much smaller, there wasn't any money. Like, I didn't think you could make it a a living as a professional climber. And so, I thought it was just kind of a fun thing I was doing in the van for a while before I'd like find some kind of job or something. And then, thankfully, the climbing industry has kind of scaled at the same rate that that that I did as a climber. And so, it it all worked out. Is it the case that um you didn't have uh any monetary aspirations when you were doing it? Like, it sounds like you you didn't, but um did you ever have the conversation with your mom like, you know, how are you going to make a living or No, well, so, I mean, I mentioned that my dad died. So, my parents had just gotten divorced and so, my dad had left enough for for my sister and me to finish college. And so, I took that money and put it in bonds. Which like, I don't know what that is, but you know, so I was making like a couple hundred bucks a month in bonds. And then, uh I stole the family minivan. Like I said, my grandparent my two grandfathers had And then after a couple years I was sponsored. I was getting free product. I was getting it like a very, very small amount of money, but some amount of money, which is enough to sort of justify the whole thing. We're like, oh, companies are paying me to do this thing. I should see how well I can do it. And then and then it all kind of took off from there. But yeah, I mean it I mean that's one of the ways in which I was very lucky as a climber. You know, there was like just enough financial cushion that I could try to do the thing as much as I wanted for a couple years and see how it played out. And it just happened to work out well. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFAS or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first test with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption. I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. Now, I And I say by taking a second function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a waitlist of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function. It's going to sound like an odd question, but I'm very curious about this. Uh you've been in beautiful places, like just and you get a very different view of those places than most people. Um there's a really great uh YouTube shorts of you hanging on by one arm during a climb, which itself is impressive to the the the observer, but then you take some moments and you like look around and you're just like checking out the scene. You're totally not looking at the rock that that I that I know, even as a non-expert. And so, I I'm wondering this. I I have reasons to ask. Do you ever snap photos with with your mind your mind's eye? Like do do you have like like clear recollection of like I'm going to I'm going to snap a shot of this, I keep this one in the memory bank? >> remember. I mean, to me it's more of the living there day in and day out. Like, you know, with free soloing El Capitan, let's say. I mean, we I spent months on the wall and it's like just every day, you know, you're going up before sunrise a lot of the time, so you're watching the sunrise over Half Dome and it's like super beautiful and then you're going down at sunset and you're watching the moon and it's just I mean, it's just day in and day out. It's the most beautiful place on Earth in all these amazing conditions. You know, sometimes it starts snowing, sometimes it's raining. It's like there are clouds swirling and mist or whatever and you're just like, "Oh, it's amazing." But I don't really remember any specific, you know, like a snapshot of that. It's more just the overall you're like, "Oh, it's just this amazing place." It's pretty pretty awesome existence. >> freaking um what is it with Yosemite Falls? The the Have you ever seen the the moon rainbow thing? Like >> firelight thing where >> No, the firefalls is a different thing. That's like with the moon and that's a different time of year. In like May or June, if you get a full moon Oh, the moonbow. That's what it is. It's like when Yosemite Falls will cast a moonbow. Like you'll be able to see a rainbow from the moonlight in the waterfall when it's at peak water. It's really insane. My my wife and I went for a romantic walk to go look at the moonbow one season cuz you're just there and you're like, "That's pretty cool." You know, it's like it's a rainbow at night. Amazing. >> It's really cool. We're going to send a lot of people to Yosemite by virtue of Cloud's Rest and for the non-climbers or >> I still think it's crazy you've climbed Cloud's Rest more than once and never climbed Half Dome. I've I've run Cloud's Rest, rocked it. I've done it I've probably done Cloud's Rest at least a dozen times. >> That is crazy cuz you have to go past Half Dome and Half Dome is the much more famous cousin that's closer and easier and and kind of more spectacular. >> Well, you have to drive past that. So, to be clear, I'm I'm starting from Sunrise. >> Sunrise. Oh, you're going from Tuolumne. I'm going from Tuolumne. >> way less impressed. Okay, good. Okay, good. Okay, good. Okay, good. Cuz I was thinking to myself like I was like, you know, Cloud's Rest is like 15 mi up and back. It's like it's No, going from the valley floor is really hard. >> Going from the valley floor. So, I actually don't know many people who come up from the valley floor anymore. People tend to start at Sunrise and then go down Cloud's Rest, kind of go down the spine of it toward Half Dome. And then I know this cuz then recently Yeah, there there are trails between them and it's obviously Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so funny because you were talking about rocking a heavy bag up there and I was like, "Man, that is a hard walk from the valley floor." But because I'm thinking everything from the valley floor cuz I spent so much time in Yosemite. I'm starting at about 8,000 ft, finishing at about 10,000 ft. >> yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Your daughter does this. You know, a 3 and 1/2-year-old daughter. That's what I was saying. Like it's like, "Wow, he's right. Okay." I mean, it's tough. I mean, 2,000 >> no, it's still tough. I mean, it's like a workout. >> But going from the valley floor is really tough. Yeah, that's brutal. >> Cuz I I had one season in Yosemite where for whatever reason I wasn't really motivated for climbing goals and I called it. I said that I retired and I was on a trail running season. Um though it's funny because I actually I supported a bunch of my friends on things and I was bouldering with all my friends. And so, you know, I said that I have a climbing journal. So, by the end of the season if you look through the journal, it would look like a normal season where like almost every day I was climbing with somebody. I was doing something and then by the end of the season I actually did a couple things that I was kind of proud of. But the mindset going into it was like, "I don't care. I'm just here having fun. I'm trail running and I'm supporting my friends on things and that's it." And uh and one of my big things that season was that I ran Clouds Rest from the valley floor. But to me that was like a triumph of of trail running, you know, because that's like a pretty big It was >> Yeah, how long is that? I don't know. It's like 5,000 ft of or 6,000 I don't know. It's like so far. Yeah. Uh let's see cuz it It was like the hardest thing I'd ever run for sure. >> going at least 3 to 4,000 ft from the valley floor up to the meadows and then another 2,000 up to Well, the valley floor is four and top of Clouds Rest is 10 something. So, you're doing six, yeah. >> Yeah. So, it's like >> Okay. For me I was like, "Oh, that's a That's a lot." >> That's a trail run. Yeah. And you're bringing and you're carrying water or you get water from the river? >> had like a little bottle and then I would fill in the rivers and Yeah, I mean I don't consider myself a serious trail runner or mountaineer, certainly, but I I ever since I got my driver's license it was like Yosemite. >> Yeah, it's the best. And Glacier is amazing. Um you know, I I swear I'm not sent here by the National Park Service, but I think Glacier's got some incredible scenery that everyone should make it to. Have you done a lot of climbing in Glacier? >> No. Uh actually I don't think there is that much climbing in Glacier National Park, but uh I I actually biked past on on the way to Alaska for this like random random journey I did. >> Yeah. Yeah. But um but no, I haven't haven't done much in there. What are the um if any cultural differences of climbing in the United States versus in Europe? It seems like you know, like you get get guys in the training the Alps. Um I keep saying guys, but I want to be fair not for politically people. I'm not saying this for politically correct reason, but there's a movie out very soon actually an IMAX movie. I saw the trailer, too. Is a friend of yours, a woman who's What's she climbing? She's climbing El Cap. >> Yeah, she's climbing El Cap in a day, like free in a day, this route called Golden Gate. Um yeah, actually, yeah, surprisingly, I'm in that film much more than I thought uh because I supported her on each of her attempts. Uh we're talking about Emily Harrington, who's also a professional climber, um who yeah, freed this route called Golden Gate in a day. And the film's uh called uh Girl Climber. And I think it comes out 24th. Yeah, isn't that like soon? Yeah. >> It's one day in an IMAX, but then presumably it'll be released >> it'll be some kind of theatrical release, but I think it'll be a relatively small theatrical release and then eventually stream and and whatever. But anyway, this film, Girl Climber. Yeah, it's funny because she worked on this goal for a long time, and I'd kind of forgotten that I basically supported her on each of her attempts because when you support somebody, I mean, this is kind of like crewing somebody's race or something. You know, when you support somebody, it's basically a rest day for you. You're like having a nice day, you're supporting a friend, it's like no pressure, it's all really chill. And so, the days that I supported her were all like, you know, I mean, I I remember them, but they were just one day throughout a big season where I'd be working on like climbing goals, like all the things that I'm working on. It's just like a fun day supporting a friend, but then I went watch the movie, and it's like, "Oh, every time she tries the wall, I'm like, there I'm supporting her." And I was like, "Oh god, I I kind of forgot about all these things like a couple years ago." And I don't know. It was uh yeah, it's funny seeing the film. It's It's really It's really inspiring. Is the route that she took um particularly difficult? What What What's the What's the milestone that she achieves there? She was the first woman to do that route in a day, uh free in a day. That route's like a harder version of the Free Rider, the thing that that I free soloed in in the film Free Solo. Uh but yeah, I mean, honestly, I think the film does a good job of not trying to portray it as anything more than it is. I mean, it's it's a very difficult climbing achievement, but it's not like it it doesn't need super It's not the hardest thing ever done. It's not the first time that, you know, um but it's very hard. And if you watch the film, you see what makes it meaningful is the level of effort that she puts into it. It's like it's hard for her. She's a great climber, and she puts a lot into it, a lot of herself into it and eventually I don't want to you know spoil it but eventually overcomes like manages to do this thing that's really hard for and I think that's which in a lot of ways is I mean that's climbing in a nutshell. It's like none of it really matters cuz like even free soloing El Cap, I mean you can walk around the back like you know it's like why put the years of effort into climbing the face when you can walk around the back? Like all of climbing is relatively meaningless and so ultimately it's the effort that we put into it that that that has value. And so I think that's that's what the the film Girl Climber Girl Climber does really good job of is that you're sort of like oh wow like she puts a lot into it and then and therefore gets a lot out of it for herself. Awesome. And I haven't seen it yet but clearly for the observer too. I mean I find it amazing that humans love to see other humans accomplish great feats. You know >> I think they love to see the effort. I mean the accomplishment of course but it's like but you love seeing somebody work really hard at something try really hard like face their fears overcome and then you know ideally achieve something. But I think it's the effort that's so inspiring. Like I mean at least personally I love to see other people try that hard because it's a reminder that I can try that hard if I want to. Yeah no I completely agree. I I'd made this little list before we I started and I'm trying to just let my unconscious mind guide it more than I'm really scripting out carefully and it says Evil Knievel cuz when I was growing up it was like everything was Evil Knievel. Turned out there were many of them. It's all family. Oh yeah. Yeah yeah a bunch of Evil Knievels. >> The Knievels. >> The Knievels. Yeah. And you know jumping you know whatever you know 50 maybe not 50 length to length but semi trucks and um and I think you know there's the element of danger. It's super impressive. Danny Way growing up cuz I knew that kid who was now a full grown man doing all sorts of crazy stuff to the point where he was starting to go after things that for skateboarders felt a little bit kind of outside the box like land speed records and things like that you know but jumping out of helicopters and certainly grum- the Great Wall of China just engineering it from scratch, was super impressive. Um and then I've got you here and then um Hunter Thompson, you know, like the guy just was all about like how many drug experiences he could have and then his funeral was actually um he loved the town of Aspen. He had his ashes exploded over the town of Aspen in a in a firework show. So, that's that's like going out the way the way you lived, you know. >> That's that that is fitting. Right. Um so, I think you're I think you're absolutely right, however, that we love to touch into the amount of effort and training that's required. I mean, that's the Rocky movies, that's um pretty much everything and that's really where the the work is. Like that's the that should be the inspiring part, right? Cuz that's the part that one can adopt. >> the Rocky training montage, that's the best part of the movie. I mean, a lot of those films the best part is the training montage where it's like cuts to the person working really really hard for a long time and like getting swole and then then you get to the actual them doing the thing. And them doing the thing is is cool, but it's like them getting ready to do the thing is often the part that you're like, that's so awesome. I'm all fired up. Totally. It's the chasing chickens and all that weird stuff. Speaking of which, um for the non-climber, what would be the the strangest um aspect of your training? Do you train your feet? Do you train your hands in ways that are un- >> But it's probably the dangling from your fingertips that I think a non-climber would I mean, also I mean, I think that's the type of thing that a non-climber just can't even interface with. Like they just can't hang from an edge, you know? It's like from a small It's like the training your fingertip type stuff. Um yeah, I mean, I think the though I mean, now there've been so many mainstream climbing things that I think people have a sense that that's that's what it is. You like dangling tiny edges and do pull-ups and all that kind of stuff. Well, I think uh I follow an Instagram account that's actually informative. Um it's a former army guy who's a he's a rock climber. And so, it's mainly focused on pull-ups and things like that and and touching into like how you if you change the the speed of the initial one-arm pull-up, like like learning to blast through the bar like through and above the bar and let go and then catch it again. Generates a completely different sort of motor neuron adapt adaptation response than like just doing a bunch of pull-ups or or like slow one arm pull-ups. Like the ability be ballistic but and then also like the eccentric like catch yourself and lower. Um and it seems to have a lot of parallels with climbing. Maybe I should just get on a wall and climb. It sounds like uh do you so I imagine if you're bouldering you end up doing all this stuff in the process of bouldering. Yeah, actually I was immediately like so should I be going faster when I do pull-ups cuz I've been like doing one arms at the end of a session but like my one arms are pretty slow. You know, you just grab the bar and you just like struggle until you do a I mean he talks about you know, a lot of people can do a lot of pull-ups in full range slow concentric and eccentric but that they rarely ever get to like muscle ups or to one arm pull-ups at kind of level that he's pulling a ton of weight because they there are number of things that he suggests we can link to this account. A lot of there's some training of forearms and brachialis and hands that's required. But he said you know that not being able to generate enough force at the beginning is the reason a lot of people don't get to the the muscle up because with the muscle up you actually there's a little bit of a kip involved at least when one's first learning it and so people are used to kind of dragging themselves in low gear out of the bottom. It's going to be a long while before they have the strength to do a muscle up. Whereas if you can blast yourself out of the bottom you sort of end up almost above the bar at some point. I actually just started doing muscle ups again like couple months ago in in my little home gym and I was like I haven't done a muscle up since I was a teenager, you know, I was like is it kind of a gym feat when you're a kid just to see if you can and as an adult it's just also living in a van obviously you can't do muscle ups cuz there's nothing to muscle past. You're like hanging from a little bar inside the van. But yeah, I started doing them again and I was like oh wow, it's so explosive. I was I was kind of like wow, what a dude. I was so psyched I could still do them. Well, yeah, then you don't need his help but I'll I'll send you the this account so you can take a look. He's got some interesting progressions. >> did want to I mean I was like oh going to chat with him and I was like so what am I supposed to be doing? You know what I mean? Like well that's the thing is like well cuz I've been just been doing all the same training stuff for 30 years. I mean and obviously I I read all the books and you know all my friends are professional climbers so we talk about this kind of stuff all the time. But there are a lot of things we always kind of as like a self-trained, self-coached athlete to some extent, you're kind of like should I be doing this more? Should I be doing this less? Like and it I was like training a bunch this summer and it was really motivating. And then I've kind of just the pendulum has kind of just swung back to being like do I need to do training stuff? Like the calisthenics, the extra workout stuff or should I just go pure climbing? Because to some extent climbing, like if you want to be a climber, you just climb. Like if you have energy left over, you should just climb harder or climb more. You don't necessarily need to save it for workout stuff and training stuff. So I don't know. But yeah, what do what do you think? >> Okay, well I'm not going to tell I'm not going to tell how to change his training especially before you take on a big a big milestone. I mean all I can say is what and I don't have a degree in exercise physiology. What I do have a degree in is 35 years of trying to get stronger. I'm naturally pretty pretty I would say like medium joints. I'm not like real thick joints. Like my bulldog, you know, like some of those guys that just have like naturally the joints I but I'm actually keeping some endurance and some degree of explosivity but mostly strength and endurance have been the two main things. To me the thing that has just been the most beneficial is what Pavel Tsatsouline taught me when he came here which is take a a weight that you can maybe do six or seven maybe eight reps with and do three repetitions. Set it down and just do many more sets and rest a long period of time if you have time to do that. That really like that really work those fast twitch motor units. You mean do the do the reps faster? Well, no not necessarily. So if you take a weight that you could do maximum like you'd fail somewhere between seven and eight repetitions. You take the the weight maybe even add a little bit and you just do three repetitions. You don't go to failure but you do many more sets. So, you might do let's say some sort of push pull so like a shoulder press of some sort or and then if you could get eight you do three or four, but then you go do your pull-ups. You might do your you know sort of ballistic pull-ups that we were talking about before. I'm actually getting a lot of progress from those like trying to blast through and past the bar and kind of catch up below. I'm almost there I'm kipping too much when I do it. So, I'm doing it but I'm kind of like throwing myself up there. I'm not doing like a like a super controlled muscle up yet. Soon that's the goal. Um but not training to failure seems to be really beneficial if you don't want to eat into your recovery too much. There's something about hitting muscular failure that's great for generating hypertrophy, but it really according to Pavel and I'm finding this too it sort of teaches your nervous system to reach that static point where you can't move any longer and it really eats into your recovery ability. So, I'm able to now train muscle groups that I used to only be able to recover if I train them once or twice a week. I can train them like three or four days a week and I'm making much more progress overall, but there's no single set where I'm like grinding out that last final rep. That's interesting. So, if so like so bench pressing for example like that's actually the only weight that I move around is I I bench like when I'm at home and have like my own little home gym. I bench press like twice a week let's say and I feel like it's like good for shoulder stability health. I don't know it's like nice to balance cuz as a climber you're always pulling so it's like I do that's my only pushing basically and so I can do like normally do three sets of five or six. It's just kind of like a basic something. So, you're saying I should do like six sets or like eight eight sets of three or something. >> maybe eight sets of of three to four with slightly more weight but don't go to failure and obviously have a spotter. There are these horrible instances where people are benching at home and they don't have a spotter. >> Well, I only have a dumbbells anyway so yeah. It seems it seems like that's the type of thing too. Also, I kind of like the dumbbells cuz it seems more like so much of what I care about is shoulder stability and whatever and I'm kind of like oh it seems like dumbbells are good for that. >> bench I'm going to catch a lot of for this, but barbell bench press it there's a lot of ego involved for people. >> I'm like, I don't need that I I've never actually done a a single rep max for uh barbell bench press. Never been curious enough. Cuz you don't have enough friends to help spot that much weight, you know? >> exactly. I'm alone I'm alone studying and I'm I'm bench pressing alone in my basement. Um another reason to use dumbbells, but yet taking a weight that um you could do seven or eight repetitions and doing three or four or maybe five and then just setting it down and going doing something else maybe for an opposing muscle group and then coming back to it so that your total rest is somewhere >> try that particularly for the benching because I do actually get kind of sore from like, you know, it's just this sore sucks. And you get really strong. I never would have thought this cuz I I came up in the the the lineage of I learned from Mike Mentzer who was a like a he was an ex-bodybuilder, but then he trained Dorian Yates who won the Olympia many times and that whole philosophy was around doing one or two sets to to absolute failure with force traps and drop sets and all the all the stuff that builds a lot of muscle but makes you very sore. And so Pavel sat right where you're sitting and he was just like, try this. Uh find movements you can do safely, load up the bar and do far fewer reps, many more sets. And perhaps even divide those sets across two days during the week as you're already doing supposed to just training a muscle group once per week. >> Do people do that? Doing something once a week? >> I only train my legs once a week and I'm getting stronger most every workout. But I sprint on a separate day, so that's kind of a leg workout. >> Yeah, that seems like a leg workout. I don't have great recovery ability, never have. So it's um And you don't pushing 50, yeah. What's that? And I'm pushing 50 and I didn't run from the valley floor, right? You know, clouds you know, exactly. I definitely have found that if I avoid going to muscular momentary muscular failure as it's called, far less soreness, far better recovery, and you get really strong. Which is crazy, you would think the opposite. >> stimulus basically to like build? If you do enough sets, but probably twice you know that the data seem to show that the muscle protein synthesis is initiated after those workouts and then it takes anywhere from 48 to 72 hours before it you know it subsides. I just personally find if I train my legs once a week, but then I sprint four or five days later, that's sort of two leg workouts. Yeah. You know, so it's really twice a week and then I do a push pull day and then I do a separate day for my my arms and extremities and and that ends up training you know chest and shoulders and back again. So it's really twice per week. Once Yeah, so you're doing all your stuff basically twice a week. But everything heavy, like really heavy, never going I don't think I've done above eight reps this year. I'm stronger than ever and I can run really far, which is so the two things I was those were >> a long run during the week or something? >> I do one for me very long run, which means an hour to an hour and a half of just running with a 10 lb weight vest. Oh, why? Just to make sure that the small stabilizing muscles are strong and also because um I want to be able to just show up to Cloud's Rest and just do it. I don't want to have to train for things in life. Yeah. And I love Also I love running. I mean just that low that slow pace at first just it sucks and then after about 20 minutes you're just like I could go all day. This is awesome. Uh I don't know that that's been my regimen now for almost 35 years to train each muscle group once a week directly indirectly, a long run and I try and do one sprint run. But but again, I'm not going to tell Alex Alex Honnold how to how to train, but I'm always looking for ideas. If you don't like getting sore and you want to get stronger you're hearing it from me, but it's really Pavel Tsatsouline that deserves the credit for this. Yeah, no, I'll try that for sure because particularly with something like benching where it's like I don't really care about pushing muscles, but when your when your pec or whatever this muscle is like the you know connecting your shoulders like yeah, it's like so sore and then that kind of affects all your pulling as well and so you're going to like oh you just don't need to get that sore doing mean that's like a side activity anyway. Yeah. Yeah, they and I'm guessing you're already getting it from your climbing, but I found that anytime I'm doing pushing, which is you know, basically all the time, making sure that I train like some rear rear deltoid type thing where you're pulling, getting that smaller muscle on the back of the shoulders because a lot of people you don't have this problem, but if you look at a lot of people lift weights, they just stand passively their thumbs kind of point towards their groin. Like they're kind of internally rotated. Yeah, whereas if you look at people who kind of do like the the Fonzie thing like you want your shoulder you want your thumbs like if you were just stand or sit naturally your thumbs pointing straight forward. So you're leaning like like I met Mike Tyson and like he's like this, but like he's spent his whole life in that peekaboo stance, right? Then you meet people like you or people who practice yoga regularly or the really like most impressive postures and physiques are the dancers. Mhm. Right. Like Eric Jarvis was on this podcast. He's a neuroscientist, but he used to he was accepted into the Alvin is it Alvin Ailey Dance Company? It was like you know, elite dance company or you see like a Twyla Tharp who's in her 80s and like in she doesn't look like she's rigidly upright. She's just upright. And that's how I want to be when I'm in my 80s. >> hard. Well, it's just she spends 2 hours a day in the gym 7 days a week. Wow. 5:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. That is the first thing I heard. >> And then three hard-boiled eggs. And then she gets to work. Like yeah, but she's I'm like that's a healthy lifestyle. She's and cognitively she's just so strong. Huh. Yeah. Yeah, I know climbers definitely have issues with posture like that because if you spend your whole life just pulling like you know, climbing. If you just climb you're just doing pulling things and so you wind up kind of like actually you kind of wind up hunched. I think it's because like you still use some of these muscles for for pulling and so you just wind up kind of tight in different ways. Yeah. But So things like it put you in a bridge pose and like in in like spinal extension. Those seem to be aren't very useful. Yeah, as I again, I'm not an elite athlete or even a competitive athlete, but I find that doing things that just like a long slow run, a sprint day, training heavy with weights, but being able to, you know, run for 30 minutes. I mean, it's just I don't think I need a degree in exercise physiology to just It just makes sense. You're just I'm trying to be upper end of average at everything, but that's very different than what you're trying to do, obviously. You're an elite athlete. >> Yeah, but some of the stuff like running, like uh like I went for a 1-hour run yesterday. I've been trying to run one day a week just like run for an hour once a week. And And then I try to do one kind of cardio adventure once a week, which is like climbing a mountain or do something, you know, anywhere from like 2 to 4 hours, let's say, but hopefully with like 3,000 plus feet of vert or something. Just like go up a thing, kind of trot down. And that's kind of enough to maintain cardio. I mean, this is kind of like family lifestyle cuz the thing is like when I was living in a van by myself, you're just doing that stuff on a rest days all the time. So, you're kind of like, "Oh, I'm going to summit this new peak." Or like, "Check out this hike." Or do whatever. But now that I'm living in a place and, you know, taking kids to school and all that, it's like I kind of have to be a little more structured with with just like I'm going to go and But so, yeah, now I'm definitely thinking about all this a little more. Just like, "Is this enough cardio? Is this, you know, is this work?" But I think that that lays a good foundation to be able to do things. Like I'm going to be in Yosemite this season and and you know, I'm aspiring to climb stuff on El Cap. Not free soloing necessarily or not free soloing at all, but maybe some like rope soloing, maybe some speed stuff, maybe whatever. But either way, I just want to be able to climb 3,000 ft relatively quickly without being that tired. And so, it seems like for running or for mountain climbing, it's like, "Oh, you just have to be able to do that kind of vertical without getting too fatigued." >> Yeah. I think the one day a week long run, one day one day a week like 30-minute run at a faster clip, and then one day a week sprint training. Um I mean, you're covering all bases there. That's 3 days a week of running though. And I'm like, "I don't love running that much." >> them is like 12 minutes long. You warm up for 3 minutes. >> training 12 minutes? >> Yeah, cuz you're you know, you you warm up and then you run a 400, you know, and then you you walk a lap, you do a 200, you walk a lap, you do a 100. And like it you're going not all out all out. But close. Yeah, you can hurt yourself sprinting all out all out. We um uh had Stu McMillan who's an elite sprint coach, trains a lot of Olympians and gold medalists and um yeah, running full speed is like how you hurt yourself. You you pop a hamstring or something. Like you but >> Are you are you at a track? I prefer to do it at a track. Sometimes I'll do it in the soft sand. And when I use a vest, I should say and I have no I have no sponsorship relationship to them, Amorpho makes these vests that are like like it looks it's kind of funny to call it this, but it looks more like a kind of vest that you know, you you know, like a dress vest and it's got little ball bearings in it. So it's not like like one of those like police type vest. And so that 8 or 10 lb that they make up to 12 lb, I think it's just enough to give you some extra work on that long run. And then on the day when you sprint, you feel like you have you know, jet propulsion. Hm. You know, you I feel like that. I realize I don't, but yeah. Yeah, totally. Totally. And then all the little stabilizer things like you don't have any like like aching like you're You seem like a very balanced in terms of your overall structure. That's one thing that I've really noticed about climbers. Like you see guys that are in the gym. I've spent a fair amount of time in gyms and there's this phenotype where they've got these big wide shoulders, wide back and the whole thing and then they got like this little head and a little neck and you go with their upper spot they're not training their neck and it looks crazy. I don't know if anyone's told them this, but they like you know, I walk by and I'm like don't skip neck day, you know, but but you know, when a body is out of balance like that like if you saw a giant dog with a tiny head and neck, you'd be like that dog is crazy looking. That's Are there a lot of dog breeds like that where you're like that dog you know, it's hard to believe it came from a wolf, you know. Exactly. You know, so inbred. So right, the the healthiest version of something can move best is always fairly balanced. It seems like climbers are very balanced across the board. >> think climbing is is one of the healthiest sports and like lifestyles and and also just it's so fun. Like going to a gym, you hang out with your friends. It's like it's mostly really chill. You mostly hang out and chitchat and like if you do a gym session, you feel like you just went and hung out with your friends all time. But then you also wind up fit and mobile and you know, pretty strong and and so much of climbing is strength to weight and so you just wind up kind of like lean and not like a big gym gym bro kind of thing. Which I think is healthier as one ages too. Like you you want to maintain muscle and hold on to muscle but there's all sorts of things associated with being heavily muscled where people end up with some kind of sleep apnea or pseudo sleep apnea cuz the the neck is thick and it blocks the air waves and you know, sleep apnea is one of the biggest health risks. It you know, people not just heart attacks during sleep but I mean you're basically clogging all the the blood flow and cleaning out of your brain that happens during sleep. It's very very common in bigger people either because they're fat or heavily muscled. But it's one of the reasons a lot of bodybuilders die. >> Thank goodness. I've never put on that much muscle. >> Yeah, well well you can clearly generate a lot of force doing what you're doing. I'm curious how you deal with cramps when you're when you're on the rock. Like you know, you don't you just don't you just don't really cramp. You don't cramp? Yeah, not really. I've never I mean sometimes you know, if you're trying to climb El Cap in a day like a like an 18-hour ascent or something like climbing with a rope but free ascents. Like basically if you're doing a really long climbs, some of my friends sometimes will cramp you cuz you're like late into it, you know, post 12 hours into a an athletic activity you're just a little more likely. But I never I never have. Pretty much in general all my athletic performance is always a steady decline where I start and I'm doing great and then over the next you know, 10 to 48 hours I just slowly get worse at a relatively linear rate. Except that normally before sunrise of the next day it starts to drop quite a bit more. You know, like as you start getting close to 24 hours you're like I'm pretty tired. It's like but then when the sun comes up you really like boost back up again and so then you're pretty good again. You just keep on the linear decline. So these are all night climbs. Yeah, I mean I've done a lot I've done quite a number of things now that are like more than 24-hour outings. You know, I mean, that's typically like climbing or mountain it's where you're like hiking and climbing and then hiking some more and climbing some more doing whatever. But, yeah, generally, you know, by 24 to 36 hours, you're just you're just a worse version of what you used to be. Right. You know, you're just you're just tired. >> And risk goes up when you're sleep deprived. I mean, that's uh Well, like where Yeah, judgment gets worse. Uh uh reflexes get worse. Like everything is worse. Sle- sleep is is key. But, yeah, that's circadian clock phenomenon where like you've been up all night, but then you start waking up again. It's Yeah, it's pretty incredible. >> I mean, also some of it with outdoor stuff is that uh just when you can see again, you know, it's like you've been going by headlamp for so long and typically by that point your headlamp is kind of dying. You just don't see that well and then the sun comes up and you're like, "Thank god." And it's not cold anymore. It's like the sun. So, you get this like breath of fresh air and then you just keep grinding. Have you um ever had or or do you have any kind of like like leanings towards this like mystical experiences? Like do you do you believe in any of that? No, I've I've always been a fierce atheist. Mhm. Uh technically, I was raised Catholic, so like I I know religion a bit. Um and I've just never I've always been like, "You know, it just doesn't make any sense to me." Like, yeah, I'm strongly unreligious. Though, I mean, I've been in so many beautiful places on Earth and had so many you know, what some would characterize as spiritual experiences like feeling a oneness with nature like a connection, you know, or just awe-inspiring beauty, you know, when you're just somewhere and you look out and you're like, "Oh, the universe is so incredible. This is like the world is a magical place." So, you know, I'm certainly open to general spiritualism, I suppose, or you know, but no, I'm I'm very opposed to organized religion, basically. Biology is awe-inspiring. Yeah, that's the thing is I'm like I think there's enough wonder in the world and in the universe without adding all the layers of dogma, basically. Like all the weird things that you don't really need to believe. I can't help but tell you this cuz I I find it fascinating and I think you might find it interesting if if not uh uh then forgive me. Um speaking of Berkeley, there was a laboratory at Berkeley that wanted to understand how geckos could walk up walls. Mhm. And uh for a long time it was thought that it was like suction of some sort, but then um uh it turns out uh they could do it in a vacuum, so it means it can't be suction. It turns out they have these little pedals on their on their fingertips. Um and they can push those pedals their feath- they're like feather uh feath- organized like sort of like feathers. They can push them so close to the surface that they're climbing that they use what are called van der Waals forces, which is the exchange of molecules between the surface and those pedals. And they're making and breaking those van der Waals forces as they climb. Really? Like Spider-Man? Like magical stickiness? >> Yes. So as they climb, they're exchanging molecules with the surface they're climbing, which I find absolutely amazing. I realize that's not how you're climbing. >> sweating all over the wall, so it's kind of the same idea. >> Right. Right. It's like yeah. Yeah, and I'm leaving skin behind. You're like, "Ah, my tips. It hurts." Well, uh you may not feel a kinship to them, but I have a feeling they feel a kinship to you because they're they are uh world-class climbers. Um and I I just find it amazing that they've evolved some way to literally exchange molecules. So I mean you spend a lot of time on the rock, I'm sure that you're carrying some some granite in you by now. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. No, that's cool. I mean you see a lot of creatures on on walls like that, you know, you see like little frogs wandering up and down. I mean even something like El Capitan, looks like a 3,000-ft solid cliff. I mean there're there're rodents running up and down the cracks. There're there're frogs in there. There're all kinds of birds. There're bats. So like you see all these creatures running around, you're just kind of like, "Oh, they're just living. They're just up here doing their thing." And you know, I mean climbing is so relatively hard for humans. And then yeah, and then you're up there and like this just it's just all part of the natural environment for all the other creatures. I didn't realize there were frogs up there. I didn't seen birds go by. I think there are a couple clips in Free Solo birds go by. >> Yeah, they live in all the cracks. Often when you put your hands in, birds will like run down your arm and fly out of the crack and things like that. You're like, "Whoa." It's startling. >> Yeah, it's startling. Yeah. >> Well, I mean it's or it's very startling the first time and then, you know, less startling the subsequent times, but you're always kind of like, "Oh, wow, a swift just landed on my arm." That's wild. >> it's cool. Well, Alex, you've inspired and continue to inspire so many people and I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it's the effort involved. You know, I think that many people um might think it's the summiting and like standing on top of the rock and that those are moments that, thanks to you, we've been fortunate enough to to share and experience, you know, uh indirectly, but uh clearly it's the effort involved. And I I actually think that's uh why people are so intrigued by what you do. Um in addition to the fact that it's in beautiful places and incredibly high risk, high consequence. It's like you it's so clear that you're regimented and you're and and that you love what you do and that you put a ton of effort into it. And the way you describe climbing with your friends, I think is the best hook, uh sales pitch for climbing ever. Like hanging out with your friends, talking and getting better and physically healthier and it um puts you in a place to go have bigger adventures and experience life more richly. Let's also get you back sometime uh after this next big feat. We can't talk too much about it. >> it'll be amazing. Awesome. All right. Well, we'll see you after that climb. Cool. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Alex Honnold. If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled "Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body". This is a book that I've been working on for more than 5 years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called "Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body". And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Alex Honnold. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.