How to Get Whatever You Want - Joe Santagato

Joe Santagato, welcome to the show. >> That was intense. Such a You said my name like so British. I love it. Uh thank you for having me is what I meant. >> to pronounce it correctly, okay? >> Yeah. It's a tough one. People just read it and they say Santiago. And I'm like, all right. Anybody comes up to me and they're like, are you Joe Santiago? I'm like, yeah. They're like, whatever. >> if there's a really famous Joe Santiago somewhere that's like, this guy keeps on taking all of my cred. >> I assume that that has to be the case, but it's just me, plain old white. >> That's true. >> Italian-Irish. >> That's true. >> [laughter] >> Plain plain and white as you can get. Actually, plainer and whiter is British, but >> That is fair. >> Yeah. You have one of the biggest podcasts in the world and you recently sold out Madison Square Garden. >> Yeah. >> If you were to draw a Venn diagram of your audience >> Yeah. >> and my audience >> Right. >> how much how much uh how much crossover do we think there is? >> I think it would look like the front of a Jeep, dude. >> Just like >> [laughter] >> Just kind of like >> Just a percentage. >> I think so. I mean, I think that people are >> [laughter] >> You like that one. Got him with the Jeep. Uh yeah, I don't I don't know that there's that much crossover. I don't know. But I'm sure that >> Yeah. May You know what I think? I I don't really feel like I actually do have one of the big biggest podcasts in the world. I think that I have a face that, because I've been on the internet for so long, that people are like, I [ __ ] I've seen this guy before. Yeah. But I don't really know what's going on. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's kind of like one of those things. >> I do but you do have one of the biggest podcasts. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. That yeah. >> You can >> [laughter] >> Right. Brush it away. That was very British of you. >> It is. >> It's really nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just do the self-deprecation. Well, you know, Madison Square Garden's actually it's only if you >> Yeah, that See, that doesn't even enter my consciousness that that actually happened. It's kind of a crazy like thing. Like, it's it's it's like leading up to it, I I I went to a Noah Kahan concert at MSG beforehand and I'm sitting in the crowd and I'm looking around and I'm like, "There's no [ __ ] way, dude." I was just thinking about like how many people work here even?" Like that's a lot. And then we're going to Come on. >> You got to come into work for me? >> Yeah, like you're telling me that the shop's going to be open or like people are going to be selling Maker's Mark out there? And I'm going to be on stage? Are you kidding me? Like get the [ __ ] out of here. But yeah, it happened. It was crazy. And like the little moments too is when it's the craziest because I feel like I have to mentally lock in in those moments in some sort of way and just pretend like Yep, this is me. This is my show. I'm going to go do it. >> be here. >> Yeah, and it's like a weird feeling, but then as you're walking to the stage, there's like a big vinyl like on the wall and and then it says like the Basement Yard and it says like sold-out show and then the date or whatever and it's like that was oddly a moment where I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] This is happening. Like this is crazy." And then you're walking through the hallway and you see the photos of all these famous moments that happened there and I'm like, "What is going on, dude?" My mom's really good at putting it in perspective for me because she shows up and she's just like, "What are we doing? Like what is this going on?" And that's how I feel. >> Is that putting it in perspective? >> It is. It's kind of what because you could get lost in in just doing the show and and doing the thing and you're kind of like This is the next show. This is Yep, this is cool, but this is another show, but eventually someone's just like, "Yo, we're standing at Madison Square Garden right now." I'm like, "I know what the [ __ ] happening." Like it's it's crazy, dude. And it it it honestly is I don't know. I I it it doesn't make sense at all. It almost feels like the the support that we have from our family. Like I know [ __ ] everyone says this, but like truly there is a I feel like I can statistically show that the support that we get from our audience is so high compared to like the viewership. You know, like >> religious. >> It's insane. Like so and >> Which is a modest thing cuz the number of comments on this video that are going to be like, "This guy is really funny. Who the [ __ ] is he?" >> Right. Which is what I want, by the way. >> Yes. >> I would like that. But It's not like who the [ __ ] is this? >> [ __ ] Santigo is like >> [laughter] >> Just multiple different versions of my name. They're like, "The [ __ ] is this guy's name, dude?" Um Damn, are we drinking in here? What's up? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Get everything. >> No, I'm okay. Um Yeah, I don't even know what the [ __ ] I was saying to be honest. What were we talking about? >> Rabbit fans. >> The rabbit fans, yeah. So, one thing that I usually like kind of point to when it comes to that conversation is we have like a top five Patreon in the world. And they they And our viewership doesn't really match that metric. >> Mhm. >> So, should we be top five? Not should, but like the fact that we have a top five just goes to show that >> the numbers. >> we were able to convert that many people into paying uh whatever it is every single month to get an extra episode of this podcast, which is like outrageous. And we get so much support from people in that way. And then all of I think every single show that we've done outside of like a casino show here and there have all sold out. And we also do really well on merch when we when we go to shows. And it it's just because there's a rabid support of people. And one thing that is very interesting that I did not expect whatsoever is people in moments that are big for us, obviously, like when we did Radio City and when we did uh MSG, the comments that they leave don't really feel like fanatic. It feels like a friend or someone that knows you. And they're like, "I I want to let you know, like I'm just so proud of you. And like that just like hits so different. It's like, man, what the I didn't expect that, you know? Like it it really feels like there is a you know, sort of a relationship there. Like this parasocial thing. But that it truly like feels that way when it comes to that. >> Yeah. >> When other people are like, I know your uncle's name. I'm like, all right. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, like don't know that, but >> Okay, [ __ ] PI. >> Yeah. >> Wyoming women having the best sex in America. The women of the cowboy state are riding more than just horses. Wyoming women are the most satisfied with their sex lives, according to a newly published report from Babeland, a sex toy boutique with locations in New York City and Seattle. Babeland determined which state's women were the most sexually satisfied through an examining a host of different factors, including how often women have sex each week, how they rate their sexual experiences, as well as the number of sex shops per state, and the reviews for those adult boutiques. Wyoming women were at the top of the state-side pleasure heap, followed by New Hampshire, Maine, Oregon, and Texas. What do you think about that? >> One more time with the with the states? >> Uh so, Wyoming, top. New Hampshire. >> Yeah. >> Maine. >> Yeah. >> Oregon. And Texas. >> Not much to do. I In the In the areas like In the areas like out in the woods or whatever, it's like you're probably bored looking at each other. Like how often Like they're probably so desensitized by the mountains and the trees that they're like, I don't know, should we just [ __ ] each other then? I don't know. Like what else are you going to do? Like I go out there and I enjoy nature and I'm like, oh my god, a deer. Cuz I live in New York and we see pigeons and run over rats, and that's pretty much it. But if I But if I lived out there, then it would be like I guess we'll just keep [ __ ] each other then. >> You think that that that high-quality sex is due to boredom? >> Is that crazy? >> I actually probably know. >> It makes sense. I mean, if the states were very different, right? >> Texas? Texas is a big state. There's a lot of people in Houston and Dallas. >> That is true. But there's But there's a lot of >> What's in I have no idea where New Hampshire even is. What is that? >> What is New Hampshire? >> Yes. >> It is a state. >> Yeah. >> Uh but it is next to Vermont. So, it's like above New York. >> [ __ ] Okay. So, there is literally nothing to do there. >> There is Yeah, that's like a it's a wasteland, basically. >> I'm not talking [ __ ] about Actually, Vermont has really good uh skiing. They have ski towns. >> Okay. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> There's Killington and Stowe. So, it's nice >> Uh-huh. >> for that, but >> Uh-huh. >> what I mean by there's nothing is like it's not like there's like a hub. Like no one's going on vacation in Vermont is my point. >> to Portland, Maine, and >> I've been to Portland, too. >> There was it was very nice, but there wasn't a lot going on. >> No, it's just, you know, lobsters and weed. >> They had a stuffed moose at the arrivals in the airport. Like a life-size moose. >> I'm into that. I like stuffed animals, but only if they're like to size. >> a taxidermy thing, but you don't want it to be shrunk down. >> No, yeah, I think that's that's cowardly. >> Okay. So, you don't want a replica moose. >> No, I would like a full moose >> Okay. >> to be like on display because you always like hear about moose, but like have you seen one in in like person? I've seen videos. >> I've only seen videos. >> I've only seen videos. Actually, I did see one, but it was like in the trees and I'm like I didn't get a good look at it. I can't even remember it right now. >> We went to Bozeman, Montana, and did this the longest [ __ ] hike ever. And as we came back down, we were going to camp that night. I The last time I camped I would must have been 16 or something. So, I'm like I'm excited. Like this is cool. I'm going camping. And uh there's warnings everywhere for bears. So, you're really cautioned about the bears. And one of the guys said, "I've got this bear spray, but sort of doesn't work." I'm like, "Don't say that." >> Yeah. >> Don't tell me that the thing It's Anyway, he's like, "Well, you you don't really need to worry about the adult bears. What you need to worry about is the moms. Like the adult males aren't the ones that are dangerous, it's the moms. And as we're pulling in in the truck, my friend I was with was very nervy about the bears. But the guys are like, "Look, the likelihood of us seeing a bear is really low. The likelihood of it being in between you and whatever is super low. We're all going to be around a fire in any case. The tents and all the rest of the stuff." As we're pulling in, look over the far side, and there is a bear that's about this big, like baby bear. >> Yeah. >> I'm like, >> That's a bear. >> You're not far from your mom. >> Yeah, no. >> Immediately he was like, "I'm out. I'm not going." So but we managed to convince him. But yeah, that was the [ __ ] bears in >> I also got roped into uh beardom at one point. When I was in when I was in uh Washington, I did a van trip with my friends and we slept in a van for like a week. I took two showers. It was disgusting in there, obviously. But uh it was beautiful. It was one of one of my favorite trips I've ever been on. But I the first hike that we did, we got up at like 3:30 in the morning and then did this hike and we had headlamps. And they're like, "Oh, bring a headlamp." And I'm like, "Yeah, you know, whatever." And we're doing this hike and I'm like pretty excited, you know, it's the first day, so I'm like, "Let's go." And then I hear one of my friends go like, "Who has the bear spray?" I was like, "Hold on." I'm like, "Why do we need bear spray?" It's like, "Oh, this place has like a lot of bears." I'm like, "Why are we doing this? We're not even like built for this. Like we're from New York City." Like we know like you know, I'm sure there's people who live around there that know what to do in that situation, but like we're spraying? We're hoping we're we're banking on a spray? I can't I I I can't. But I mean, we ended up doing it, didn't see a bear. If I did see a bear though, like I don't know. First of all, I'm [ __ ] my pants. I know they can smell that. So like we're I'm leaving a trail. I don't know. >> Uh that's how we track them. I'm sure I'm sure they're tracking us when people are [ __ ] their pants like me. >> [laughter] >> They can smell that. >> me that your fear is attracting the bear? >> No, the the fear is resulting in the [ __ ] My fear Oh, well, yes, I guess that my fear is that with this inevitable [ __ ] in my pants, I will be leaving breadcrumbs back to our car. >> by a bear. Because of how much of a [ __ ] I've been. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When it comes to I love animals, but when it comes to like I love animals when I'm prepared to see them. >> Mhm. You don't want to be jump scared by them? >> don't like that [ __ ] in movies either. I like to be prepared for things. Uh but I don't Uh but I don't like that. I don't like the uh you know, like a like if I am out in public and I saw >> Like even a cat would get me. >> If it was like running real quick, I don't like quick [ __ ] I'm serious. >> We were in the garden after yesterday before I came for dinner with you and my housemate was looking at this squirrel and he's like, "Dude, can you imagine if squirrels were any bigger than they are? The [ __ ] pace the frame rate that squirrels move at is so fast. You would be if they wanted you, you would be completely dead. Even at the size they are, they're climbing all over you. You just flail forever and then be dead." >> unbelievable. I feel like I'm speaking to my conscience because I have talked about this so many times. But my thing is like, "Fuck the size that they are." If they decided, it's over. It is over. Cuz what am I going to do? I can't fight two squirrels. One I could probably like rip off me. Two of them though, I mean, they're eating my eyes out. Cuz they're so fast and they like you see them get up a tree. >> Yep. >> It's at the speed of light. So like this isn't happening for me. Like I'm not that so if if the squirrels wanted to, they could >> to try and fee fi fo fum your way through getting around this [ __ ] squirrel that's all over you? >> It's a fear of mine. I also don't really like birds. Oh, I hate bugs. You want to see me turn into a little [ __ ] you put a cockroach on this table right now. Don't like that at all. >> New Yorker? >> I think yeah. I don't like it. >> of your city. >> I know. It's actually our state bird. I I don't like it at all. I don't like things that have like you know, like little ant like little hands and antennas and they're like wet. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, like you know, like you see like tarantulas up close and it's like, "How many eyes does this thing have? And then it And then they they have It looks like they have a couple mouths and a bunch of teeth, and I'm like, I I just >> Not for me. >> Not for me at all. And they're hairy. I can't. >> It's too much. >> What do you think they think of you? >> That's a great question for when you interview a tarantula. I'm going to watch that [ __ ] episode. >> [laughter] >> I am going to watch that. Let me show you. >> Jose Santiago, what do you have a bucket in? >> [laughter] >> Jose Santiago, how do you feel about tarantulas? >> [laughter] >> Maybe that's the guy that everybody thinks that you look like. >> Probably. I'm sure there's >> tarantula in >> There's got to be thousands. >> New York. You've got this line, be realistic about where you stand, but not where you can go. >> Yeah. >> What's that mean? >> I think that that is the thing that like helps me the most. Like I really feel like my if you could pick a superpower that you have, like something that, you know, is the reason for the way you are. >> Pretty handsome. >> Right. Well, yeah. I honestly honestly yes. Um and you're in good shape. Those two things, I would chalk everything up to that. >> you very far. >> Yeah, yeah. Oh my god. That's why I'm I mean, I went for a run this morning. That's why. Um but I think that being realistic with yourself, especially like where you stand at the moment, is very important, because a lot of people do this thing where they conflate manifesting and I don't know, this like positive affirmation thing for like, just tell yourself that you're better than you are, which I I think that has a place in certain areas, but do think it's important to realize where you are, because it helps you to it humbles you. And you say, this is where I am right now, and this is what I'm capable of. And if you know yourself, then no one can really say anything to you. You can't be hurt by a comment or a or anything like that. You are on a mission. I know who I am. And then the the un- or what I don't even know what the [ __ ] the rest of it was, but it's like like not being realistic about where you can go. I'm extremely unrealistic about that part. So, that part I I really believe that I can accomplish anything. I don't think it's easy, but like I'll give you an example that's like insane and some people are going to be like, [ __ ] this kid, but I saw a video of Ben Affleck and Matt Damon winning the Academy Award for best screenplay. And I I watched it back like 20 times, not kidding. I'm also like that. I'll watch it like crazy if I'm like feeling something for like But I'm watching that and a part of me is going like, I can do that. And I I don't like in a sane mind, I don't it obviously that's crazy to say, but I I do believe that. Like I believe that I can't do it right now. I don't think I'm capable or like my first shot at I can do it, but I feel like I can. Like I if I wanted to and really apply myself, I can do that. Obviously that counts for nothing. You have to put in all that work, but I think the fact I think letting yourself know that it is possible and you are capable of actually achieving that goes a long way. You know, like having certain people uh that blow up as a musical artist that came from like a small town or whatever, like that is very inspiring to those people that live in a small town or anyone that lives in a small town. Like that's a relatable thing. It's like, well, usually only people from LA are movie stars, but you came from this small town, so I live in a small town over here, so that lets me know that like, oh, it is possible to make it in some sort of way. Um and that's just an example of that where if you allow yourself to be like, I can do that. Like if I wanted to and I am I become like obsessed with things, like very passionate about things to the point like I'm nuts, dude. Like I'm [ __ ] crazy. Like I when I really Like when I was thinking about uh MSG and and Radio City, those were two really big moments in my life. And for Radio City, I I knew what song I I wanted to like I wanted us to come out to like a year before it even happened. Before it actually was booked, I like knew what song I wanted it to be. And I wanted to know like I knew how we were going to promote it. And all these other things because I like hear a song and then it kind of motivates me a little bit and I have to listen to it a bunch of times to the point where like now I'm visualizing this thing. Like I'm doing the manifesting. And I I literally was listening cuz the song is Baba O'Riley. >> Teenage wasteland. >> Fire. So, I I I had that song in mind for this and then I would like if I went for a run and I put it on like sometimes I would just cry cuz I just like wanted so bad. But I don't know sometimes I I want that and I don't even know what I want. Like I'm just very intense about this is going to sound I mean I don't know. We got this so like but like energy is so like real to me. And if I can hear a song or I see a video or I see um someone talking about something and it in a resonates with me even a little bit. I have to watch it uh religiously. And I just I just want to understand so much of like why I feel that way and it it inspires me. And I really think that like not it goes beyond people saying like anything is possible which is true. But that's like very general. Like I feel very capable. Like I actually feel capable um to to do things and just because I think it obviously that means nothing. Um but I I do I have there's like a feeling in me. Like truly. Like it's like in my body that I really feel like if I go after some sort of project I I will get it done in some way. Or I'll fail at it which is totally fine, because it's not that doesn't stop me. Like, obviously, you're going to fail. I failed many times, many times, but it doesn't stop me from wanting to get to that position. I will always go. 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Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. >> Have you always felt like that, or have you trained yourself into feeling like this? Cuz it sounds like you've got a lot of self-belief, at least for the future. >> Yeah, I do. Um, I Yes, I would say that I always kind of felt that way, partially uh in certain ways where how I grew up. Um, I always felt like I'll be fine. Even if I wasn't going to be. I was perfectly okay with not really being fine, like financially, like not being fine. And I literally just wanted to do this sort of thing. That's all I wanted to do, was to have this job and entertain people. It wasn't about how much money. It was literally like, I want to do it, and I will kind of want to do it on my own terms. And I want to stand out, and I want to be as authentic as possible. So, that's kind of what my goal was. Like, that's what drives me is to I don't want to veer too far off from the person I was when I first started doing all this, if that makes sense. Because the the the mindset that like I was just talking about, like that hasn't changed at all. The way that I sort of view it, like I think I can do it, so I have to do it my way sort of thing. And and part of that is I'm because I'm very realistic with myself, I am I love criticism. Like, that resonates especially. Like, if people are just like hating and it doesn't really hit you at all, that whatever, it doesn't matter. But, when someone criticizes you or they have advice for you and they say something and you're like, "Ooh." Like, I love that. I love those moments. Part of the reason why me and Greg work together is because of years ago, I like wrote a script and I was like showing like my friends and family and [ __ ] They're like, "Oh my god, this is so funny." Sent it to him. He sent me back like eight pages on why it sucks. Like, like so many things like why it sucks. And I was reading all of them and I'm like, "Oh my god, these make so much sense." And like, that's exciting for me. Because it's like, now I'm making some sort of progress. Like, there's no way I'm getting this right on the first try. Like, I am super down to be wrong because I'm not I'm not trying to be right about I can do something. Like, I'm trying to do something extraordinary, which is going to require some sort of collaboration especially at this point. Especially if you want to do something really extraordinary and like win some sort of award or whatever. Like, I my approach would be to something like that um the Academy Award is what I'm talking about, which is not actually like a goal. I don't want people to feel like this is what I'm doing over here. But, uh it's it's more of like I if I get the opportunity, I'm putting everything into this thing and I will dot every I and cross every T. And I am not trying to get a green lit. Like I'm trying to get it to be the greatest show anyone's ever seen for its category. >> Mhm. >> You know, like that is kind of my approach to those things. And I feel very capable, especially with like that the people that I have around me. Like I get a lot of help and I believe in them tremendously. And I think that we're super lean, but I just feel very capable in that way. We didn't really expand the team like crazy any for any of these big moments. I kept it like the people we were all doing it for the first time and we were figuring it out and you know, after after realizing that I'm referring to touring now, but uh it was just six of us and really like four of us are kind of like uh making decisions and dealing with the companies and whatever. But we wanted to do it ourselves. A company had offered help to, you know, help with the tour, but we wanted to do it. We thought we felt that we were capable. We also want to see how involved it was and if we were just going to give money away to somebody or if we could handle it ourselves. And we did the sh- the show for 2 years. Had a very good like success with it. And now we know what's involved. But that was always going to be the approach cuz it's like we can do it. Like let's just do it ourselves. And a lot of people we heard from a lot of venues that a lot of people show up with like a big team and they have, you know, this and that. Granted, we don't really have like a super involved show, to be fair. Um but they were people were always kind of like, "Oh, it's just you guys?" I'm like, "Yeah." >> You turned up at MSG with five people. >> Yeah. >> And they were like >> There was a stage manager that um like they have people there. Like they But like usually, I mean, MSG is a different thing. They hire like some guy who's like done it and he's like for real. Um but in other places it's just someone who works at the theater and and sometimes you get to a theater that's like super old and uh you know, like in in Tampa. I don't even remember the name of the venue, but we went there and the computer that they tried to upload our like show to basically because we have some assets on the screen and whatnot and some other components. Uh um the computer was like from [ __ ] 1857. And the guy's like, "Hold on, I got a MacBook." He brings out something from 1995. I'm like, "We're getting warmer, but this won't turn on." And we had to get our photographer to go back to the hotel room, get his laptop, set up the entire show, and then we basically ran the entire thing. So, sometimes you run into that. If you don't have an entire team like that that shows up and like plugs in does the whole thing. Um but we like to keep it super lean. I I enjoy that and I enjoy saying that all this stuff that you see and everything that we've kind of accomplished have come from these people. >> What's the what's the gender split of your show of your audience? >> Uh I believe it's around 70/30 female. So, it skews female. Uh it may be like a little lower than that, but >> at the live shows? >> The live shows it's overwhelmingly overwhelmingly female. Yeah. >> 90% 95%? >> I mean I don't know about 95, but we're getting there. Like it's I think it's probably like realistically like 85%. Like it's a lot. >> To the point where people's Apple watches go off. >> Yes, I told you about that, but it it was it's very loud. Um my first show ever I was like super nervous and I didn't really know what to expect. I didn't know if we were going to do a good good job and I walked out on stage and the the only thing I could think about was how loud it was. I was like, "Oh my god, like I've never heard something like this before. I've never I've never like been on a stage in front of that many people." Our first show I think was 1,700 people in New Jersey. And I was like, "Holy shit." >> make a lot of noise as well. >> Yeah, they do make a lot of noise. Yeah. Oh my god. A lot of that. Yeah. So, one of the most common areas, I think it's the most commonly cited psychological area for growth that women want to work on, and certainly at my shows, cuz I do a lot of Q&A, it's the most common thing the women talk about to me as well, is imposter syndrome. >> Mhm. >> And what you have is kind of like reverse imposter syndrome. >> I also have imposter syndrome, though. >> But you have it at a level where why is everybody here for me? >> Mhm. >> no point does it put a ceiling on where you think that you can go. Cuz I think for a lot of people, their sense of self now is I shouldn't be here. >> Mhm. >> And that bleeds over into and therefore I definitely can't go that much further. >> Mhm. >> Does that make sense? >> Sure. >> And I think that at least by the sounds of things, you sometimes get surprised with like, what the [ __ ] is this MSG in the Radio City, all of these people? And apparently it's 130 decibels. >> Yeah. >> And but that doesn't slow you down going forward. >> No, because one now I also feel like an enormous responsibility because for a long time it was just me who was making all the decisions and I was I didn't have any employees, so I didn't have anyone or I did have an employee, but we were younger, so there wasn't a lot of stakes. But now I have employees that have children, that have mortgages, that have, you know, things to pay for and like there's a little bit more of a pressure from that. But I also in those moments I have imposter syndrome where I kind of feel like this is obviously very ridiculous that this many people are here and I don't I don't I don't really know how it happened this cuz it feels very quick. Like it just kind of flies by and then you're you're there. I'm standing on stage at MSG in front of a sold out crowd and you're kind of like, what the hell did I do to get here? I don't even remember. And that's like that's a that's a you know, a weird experience, but I don't even know where I was going with that to be honest, but it's I I do have impostor syndrome, but in those moments a part of me is also like I can't get scared. Like I can't stop this because too many people are kind of counting on it. And I and I think that I I sort of owe it to myself in a way that I should keep pushing and seeing what I'm capable of because really the only thing that I think holds a lot of people back is this fear of things like that where you're like, well, this is either that's not for me completely or this is good enough or yeah, this is good enough is actually not what I want to say because I think that everything that I've been doing is like good enough, but I just want to know that like I I want to know what my full potential is. Like I want to know what I'm capable of. There's still fear that lives in me that feels like you turn down certain opportunities or you don't do certain things because of fear. >> Mhm. >> And you you especially >> How much do you feel that? How much do you feel fear? >> All the time. I think all the time. I mean, there's certain parts of it that there's certain parts of it that I'm afraid of and it gets easier when you kind of do stuff. I was afraid to do live shows. I was I was like nervous about doing it because you're so comfortable like just on the internet and it's like you can you can edit it. It's there's no like really high stakes, but can you perform for 2 hours in front of people? Like that's a very big jump and it and a different thing. Especially when you're doing a podcast show that people have no expectations coming into the show. Like what the [ __ ] is it going to be? Like are you going to get on there and sit on stage and talk to your boy and that's going to be the whole show? Like it can't be that. Um I it can be. Some people do it, but I I was not interested in that whatsoever. >> Lazy people do. >> Yeah. [laughter] I was not interested in that whatsoever. I held off until we had a good idea and also at a point where we felt like we are hitting a stride and the show has like grown to the point and this feels like okay, this is a logical next step, but we're going to make it worth it for people because I going back to what I was saying before, none of this is for the money. I really just am not motivated by money at all. Um so I would feel horrible if I went out there and and didn't try. And if they loved it, it would make it worse cuz then it would feel like oh, I manipulated them and give into giving my money and they're happy. Why are they happy? I didn't even try. >> it in. >> Yeah, I mailed it in and and they're happy about that. Like they shouldn't be happy about that. Like they should hold me to a higher standard, you know? And I think that's like manipulation. I mean people do that to their audience. >> There's a a line the guy who you didn't know, Alex, that >> No, I know Alex. I just I just was shocked by the fact that you guys were up there. >> Yeah, it's very regal. >> Uh wow. >> Um he's he's got he's got a line where he says um >> [snorts] >> control freak is a word that people with low standards use to describe people with high standards. >> Control freak >> is a term that people with low standards use to describe people with high standards. And what you've said is dotting every I, crossing every T, spending a lot of time obsessing over It sounds like you're quite obsessive. >> Yeah. >> To me. Like I mean you are by definition. I watch a video and there's a section of a video that I can't stop thinking about because it makes gives me goosebumps or it makes me cry. >> Yeah. >> That you're obsessing over this emotion, this energy, you're obsessing over this vibe, you're obsessing over this song for your show that hasn't even yet been booked. >> Right. >> And I've got this idea that I think obsessions really misunderstood by people. That we're all obsessed with discipline and motivation. The motivation's cool cuz it's kind of like relatively free discipline. Like it makes you want to do the thing. And discipline is you making yourself do the thing. Right? Like, that's Goggins and Jocko and getting up at 4:30 a.m. and spitting sawdust and willpower and stuff like that. >> Yeah. >> But, then there is this next level, which is obsession. And obsession is I can't not do the thing. >> Yes. >> I'm unable to stop myself from doing it. >> That has been something that is very present in my life for the longest time. I dropped out of college because of that feeling. And I when I was I I went to a I don't even know why I did this, but I was in high school uh I went to a Catholic high school. I was a good student. You know, like near 90s, you know, something like that, whatever letter that is. But, uh when it came time to apply for colleges, I just never did it. Like, you're supposed to do that in like November or something, and I just never did it because and I don't I couldn't even tell you why. I don't even know my rationale was at the time. But, then I I lied to my parents and I said, "Yeah, I applied here and there and I'm I'm just waiting." And like, just to put off hearing about it. Um and then I eventually just went to I told my parents I didn't get into any schools. And then I went which is like insane if that actually happened, which whatever. But, I went to a community college. I went to a school called Queensborough Community College. And I did a semester there, and it was very hard for me because I I just felt so strongly that it wasn't for me. And it bothered me that that's like a thing that a lot of people say. And I'm like, I'm not just one of those people that's like, "Oh, you know, school's just not for me." And it's kind of like um cuz I didn't think I was better than it. Like, I I still don't think that, and I think that it has its place, for sure. Um but there was something in me. There was like a feeling of like, I can't go back. Like, I can't. Like, I and I don't have a plan. At that time, I was making some YouTube videos, but they were amounting to nothing, really. I enjoyed doing it, but it wasn't like I thought this is what I'm going to do. This was also in 2011 when there wasn't influencers. There wasn't even Instagram. There was there was nothing. So, the the idea that you could make a career off of this like didn't really exist. So, there wasn't like this guiding light of like I'm going to do this. I was doing YouTube videos and I wasn't getting paid any money to do them, but I did feel like maybe if I grew this to a certain point, I could leverage the audience into like an audition for something. I don't know. Like I wasn't really thinking, but I didn't necessarily want to be an actor. I just liked to doing that at the time. But something was pushing me away. And I I literally would drive to the school and sit in the car. Very dramatic. And I would just stare at the school and I'm like I can't I literally just can't I can't get myself to go. And going back to why I'm an insane person, there was one time where I literally had like a notebook and I just wrote out like a an interview that like Barbara Walters was doing with me where she was like walking me around. She's like, "So, this is your college." Like and I was like thinking like that. Like I just want something so bad. I know I can't get it in there. >> even know what it was. >> No. Which is stupid. >> That's very That's really interesting, right? Because you've got you had ambition without direction. >> Zero. I had a lot of passion and ambition. And it was like putting it in a box. >> was for. >> No. >> Most people don't realize how much being dehydrated impacts a performance, which is why for the last 5 years I've started pretty much every morning with Element. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. This orange salt in a cold glass of water is like a sweet salty orangey nectar and I really tell the difference when I take it versus when I don't. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue, helps to optimize brain health, and regulates your appetite while also curbing cravings. Best of all, they have a no questions-asked refund policy with an unlimited duration, so you can buy it and try it for as long as you want. And if you don't like it for any reason, they'll just give you your money back. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com /modernwisdom. modernwisdom. So, that's that's really, really interesting. Cuz I think a lot of the time people assume that in order to move, you need to have a plan. You need to know where you're going. That's kind of classic My background on the podcast for the first couple of years was kind of productivity bro. It was deep work and and focus timers and learning how to organize your desk and using notes apps and stuff. Almost everything didn't work except for just building up the muscle of trying to not get distracted and probably not using your phone as much as >> Right. >> want to. Right? Like that's kind of it. Anyway. [snorts] A lot of the standard advice is set your 25-year goal and then break it down into five-year periods and then you do it in 18-month blocks and it's 90-day sprints and every day build this all together. >> Mhm. >> But it kind of bypasses the fact that if you're somebody that's got a passion that's got passion all you need to do is find something to plug that into. >> Right. >> And I wonder how many people because they have a fear of not knowing what it is that they want to do they back themselves into something that feels safe because they're scared of having this drive but not having the direction. Like ambition without direction. [ __ ] like that's a lovely little framing. Um they don't know where to put it. So, they're like, well, I'll I'll do this. I'll go to the college. I'll get the job. And then before they know it, they've kind of tumbled backwards. They've There's an idea called sliding versus deciding. They've slid into a set of train tracks that they're now on where they're not able to use their passion. They're not that passionate about it, but it feels really safe. >> Yeah. >> I'm super, super safe in this situation. But all of that passion is kind of still burning, doesn't really have anywhere to go. And after a while, I get the sense that if you don't keep giving it at least the fuel of the potential for dream, that it sort of burns out. >> I think that there are people that probably have more passion than others because I do think there are people that are perfectly content with uh you know, going to college, getting a job, and like that's their life. And I think that's amazing. Like I think that as long as you feel fulfilled, like you should do that. >> They're very lucky. >> Yeah. >> They're very lucky because the alternative is that you need to contort yourself into this weird [ __ ] shape. >> Yeah. >> Run all over the planet trying to work out who you are. >> A part of me was afraid because I did all have all that passion, and I didn't know where to put it. Um I think that I think that if you're lucky enough to find something that really lights a fire in you, like something that you actually enjoy, like this is the thing, like you it almost for me, it's like you need to do it. Like I I need to do that. >> not do it. >> I can't. Like I can't. I have to. And that's why I like dropping out of college felt like that. Like I was That was the first time that I felt something like it was almost I had a physical reaction to me where it was like, "Dude, don't do that." And I There was no [ __ ] plan. And mind you, I was always like a good student growing up, and I played sports and stuff, and I felt like there was a lot of uh there was high expectations for me. And then I was not fulfilling that at all. And then I'm going to go, "Well, I'm also dropping out of college, you know?" And that was >> L's in a short space of time. >> god, dude. It is a lot of L's. And there was only one time where I was like, "Man, I'm [ __ ] this up bad. Like maybe I'm just like full of [ __ ] Like you think do you have just because I have all this passion oh my ambition >> Exactly. It's like bro this counts for nothing. No one cares that you're passionate. Like and you're waiting for what? Like what are you waiting for? Like what are you going to do? >> And then there was a time where I did have that realization of because when I was younger I was a little more like arrogant about it in my head where I was like I'm going to find something. Like I was like kind of sure which not sure. But there was a moment where like all my friends are going to college and some of them away some of them are in the neighborhood some of them have jobs and whatever and I'm I'm literally doing nothing now cuz I dropped out of college I don't even have a job at this point. >> that feel? >> Like a [ __ ] loser dude. Like I just I I literally felt like that was the first time that I ever told myself like yo you're full of [ __ ] dude. Like you have all this passion and uh you know you you I'm sitting in a car writing a [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> Nice Barbara Walters interview. >> Yeah like what am I talking about? >> still living with mom and dad. >> Yeah like she'll be dead by the time this happens anyway but like I was like I was you're sitting there writing that and then a part of me is like I'm upset with myself because I'm like you told yourself the lie and you believed it. And I I do believe it is sort of like a lie cuz that could get you in trouble and it would have got me in trouble too. If I followed that passion because no matter what I was following that. I I followed the excitement with as far as like professionally is I I and I think that's important especially even now if you ask me like what's your five-year plan? I don't have one. I'm waiting for the excitement to appear. I'm at the point now where it's a little easier to do that because I can kind of sit back a little bit and sort of rest on my laurels and and you know kind of make decisions I could kind of float here. But if something pops up and and that excites me that's what I'm doing. Like and and I have no idea it could look totally different so >> You know what it sounds like? It sounds like one of the things that you've really steered away from at least when making your life decisions is obligation. I don't feel [laughter] >> Not like you're not >> Dan, you sound like my dad. >> You wouldn't like >> You're not obliged to do something just because people expected you to. Just because you were doing it previously. Just because your parents might have wanted you to do it. Like I understand obligation comes with a lot of baggage. >> No, no, no. [ __ ] childhood [laughter] trauma coming through your eyes. >> No. >> But it I do know what you mean. But I think that's true. Like a lot of people feel obligated to go and do something. They even feel obligated to keep moving. Right? There's this sense of oh [ __ ] like I can't just sit and wait or I can't just sit and think. And in some ways that's true. Right? You shouldn't just be wish it, want it, do it, dream it, believe it and not go and work for it in your way through the life through your life. Like that's you're just going to result in you being on the couch until you get kicked out >> Yeah. >> of your apartment. >> I also like I have a deep desire to earn it. Like I want to earn it. And I want people to look at me and feel like he earned it. You know, I I don't want people to feel like there was a shortcut or anything like that. >> anyone can look at the backlog of stuff that you've done and say that you haven't earned it. I'd like to think that the same thing is true for me as well. >> Yeah. But I I I feel that about things that haven't happened yet either. Like any any sort of thing that pops up that I that I um will do. Like I I can tell you right now, I don't know the specifics, but my life moving forward will look very random. Like there probably will be other projects that are like not podcasting, not a live show, whatever, that I'm like I'm going to put my all into that or whatever. Like I I go with the excitement. And I want to be good at those things. Like I I want to. That's why I I'm so willing to take criticism because I want to be good. Like I want to be good. I want people to know that I'm trying really hard to do this thing if it excites me. >> What do do about the sort of current trend of people trying to be nonchalant? >> That was such a British pronunciation, nonchalant. I like that better, to be honest. Um >> Nonchalant. Uh in what way do you mean? >> Well, you're talking about I want people to see me trying really hard. >> Yeah. >> Trying hard Trying hard's kind of lame. >> To >> Yes. >> a certain category of people, especially people on the internet, which is why you exist. >> Everybody like thinks it's lame, yeah. >> So, there's There's a world at the moment that only ever talks in irony. Like they only ever make ironic sentences ironic statements. Nobody stands for something legitimately. They only ever stand against things or kind of mock stuff or suggest It's kind of like the passive-aggressive pushing of your own things. Well, you know, like this thing's like, all right, I guess. >> All right. >> As opposed to I am giving this my absolute [ __ ] everything. In the UK, for instance, we have tall poppy syndrome. People that try really hard are called keenos. Too keen. You're too keen for this thing. You're too excitable. You'd get called [ __ ] very American of you that, dude. Like that >> [laughter] >> Really. Like it's Enthusiasm's looked down on to a degree, especially if you come from a working-class background, which is as scum class as I can be. Like you are kind of encouraged to not get too big for your boots. I must have heard that thousands of times. Don't get too big for your boots. >> Yeah. >> Don't have dreams that are too big. >> The thing with me is like I I I realize that. But if you're People who are acting nonchalant about especially about things that they are actually passionate about, it's just insecurity like manifesting in that way where it's like I need to appear like I'm not really trying, but I am trying or whatever. Like I I'm not insecure about those things. So, I'm like don't worry, I got them. >> [laughter] >> But I'm not insecure about those things, so I'm willing to try really hard at them and fail and fall on my face or whatever. And it kind of excites me, too, that there's a lot of people that aren't willing to do that cuz it's like it then it feels like I have a leg up on them because I'm I'm willing to hit the ground super hard because when I hit the ground, like then I know like that happened. You slammed the door in my face cuz so I know like okay, I got these to choose from now. Like at least I have a decision. Like you made a a final decision. Like it that failed. Then I can move on. I'm not nonchalant about it because I'm not even doing it for the perception. I'm doing it for me. And when I say that I want to earn it, it's not necessarily for outside validation. Like I want to know when I go to sleep at night like you worked hard and you got that thing. That feels really good. Like that's an amazing feeling to know that I put my all into this thing. It started as an idea. I said it out loud. I worked hard to do it. And then it happened. That's an amazing feeling. >> There's a quote from Mark Manson. He says, "Do hard [ __ ] not because it's fun, but because the win actually means something. You bled for it. You broke for it. You earned it. Easy wins are forgettable. Hard ones change you." That's the point. >> Exactly. What is better than that? There's nothing better than that. >> This is one of the things I I think about the world of AI and how many people are maybe relying on assistance for their job or for their writing or their creative pursuits. And what it's doing is it's actually robbing you of the thing that you came here to get. >> Yes. >> The thing that you came here to get is the sensation of I I did hard [ __ ] >> And I got good at it. I got good at it, too. >> at a time. >> And yeah, like that's the that to me is like the biggest payoff. When I could watch something like an old video or I can watch like something from our first shows or just know whatever. I'm just like I I'm better than that now, which is good. >> Does anyone ever put together one of those uh the timeline of Josh Santigo [ __ ] like videos of so I'm going to make it worse each time. >> [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> Uh >> I'm enjoying this [ __ ] >> Yeah, you can't [ __ ] talk the neutronic. >> [laughter] >> Like purposely misquoting everything. Um And someone did it Someone did a >> by the way. Sorry. >> Thank you. Good. Get it in you. Um >> [laughter] >> Someone did a video uh little like last week or something. It's really [ __ ] good. And um I watched it and they went back and analyzed the first episode that I'd ever done on the podcast. >> Hm. >> And this is this line and they were like "You might not think that this guy would go on to become anything in regards to a successful podcaster." I was like It's true, but it was 1,100 episodes ago in 2018. >> Yeah. >> In the northeast of the UK in my old office in Newcastle. >> You know what's funny? You actually bring that up because this morning, I got a random DM from a person and they did This is [ __ ] weird, by the way, cuz now you know what I'm saying. Someone This has never happened to me ever. I feel like I'm I'm almost the mentalist right now. You know what I mean? No, actually. But this That exact thing happened to me for the first time ever. Someone sent me a screenshot of It was one of It wasn't the first episode, but it was one of the first ones and I titled it Who the [ __ ] is this guy? And I talked about myself and like what the podcast is going to be and like things that I believe in or or whatever. And the message that they left me was like I I just want to say that I've been a fan of yours for a really long time and I just listened to this and it's really cool to see that, you know, you've gone on to be successful and have some fame and this and that, but like this sounds like you. Like you're still like the same person there. And that is like the biggest compliment that I could get because that's the whole point. Like that's that's what I want. That's like what I believed in. I believed that if I was authentic enough, then I could stand out. And I had the luxury of starting when I did because there wasn't a lot of people doing it. Now everyone's doing it. But it's hard to be authentic because you're constantly sort of inspired by other things that are happening on the internet if that makes sense. >> I had the idea that if I could be authentic enough it would work out. Like what's that mean? If I could be authentic enough you most people would say if I could come up with a novel enough idea, if I could be creative enough, if I could work hard enough, if I could uh um find the right niche. You're saying the key competitive advantage, the key sort of fuel that you were optimizing for was authenticity. >> Yeah. >> Why? >> For well for me at the time like it was I was making YouTube videos and a lot of people were kind of doing the same thing. So that felt like the only way that I can stand out is if I do things sort of my way and I put my like kind of flare on it or whatever. I didn't want to and the things that other people were doing felt lazy to me. So I was like I'm not going to do that. I'll do some other stuff. I'll you know I'll experiment. I mean By the way whatever I tried to do sucked. Besides the point. But I my thought was like if I can stay authentic to my voice then I'll stand out because there's only one of me. And there's only one of you. And I think that's true for anybody. Like that ultimately is the goal. There when you see something new it's exciting. You know? Like when a new thing drops people want it. It's a brand new thing. We haven't seen it before. So if you are authentic and you sort of are placed on a platform or in a you know a medium like this or something and and you're as authentic as you can be you're going to stand out because guess what? There's a lot of other people that are just trying to be like the other ones who are already successful. >> That is so [ __ ] good. That's really, really good. You No one No one can beat you at being you. >> No. >> Right? I But, the problem is >> job. >> to just be you. >> That's it. >> No one can beat you at being you, but a lot of people are trying to be someone else. >> Yes. And And maybe that is because of some sort of insecurity, and there's other stuff to impact there, but like if you can get to a place where you're okay with yourself, and you know yourself, and you can apply that into I mean, for me, I'm specifically talking about like content creation, and you know, that sort of thing. But, if you can do that uh I think that that pays dividends in in in my field, like what I do. Like, I think that makes you stand apart from everyone else, because if you are trying to dress and sound and make videos that look like Like, if you're trying to make the same videos as Mr. Beast, like, what do you What do you think that you're just going to be Mr. Beast? Like, it already exists, and he's the guy. And he has a specific formula. I think they also says a lot of like smart things about like how to create viral moments, and he actually gives really good advice in those ways, but thinking that you're going to make it because you're just going to copy him, I think is it it will hurt you ultimately. >> the interesting thing with that is? I I've met Jimmy once for 2 minutes, so I don't really know him. Um Let's say that Mr. Beast isn't being Mr. Beast. Let's say that he's performing in some way. His in- insecurity is driving him. Let's just say that that's the case. Regardless of whether he's being authentic or not, you trying to be him still won't work. >> Right. >> [laughter] >> Which is the interesting thing, right? Even if you try to model someone who's being authentic, which not many people are, by definition, >> Right. >> that still won't work, because it's still in authentic to you. Now, there's things that you can learn. It's not as if you learned how to video a a podcast or put together a live show without taking inspiration. You said that you watched Ben Affleck and Matt Damon get this thing, and they've got ways of speaking and ways of working, and they've got a a philosophy behind the thing to go, "Oh, I love what they did with Goodwill Hunting and I love the way that they did that this thing, but I don't really like that so much." And then you take it and it becomes a part of you as opposed to you trying to be it. >> Yeah. >> But yeah, just the authenticity as the biggest competitive advantage you have >> Yeah. >> I think it's a really interesting idea. >> I I really do think that's true. And I I also I'm not trying to like I'm not I'm not even trying to be the like the best. I'm just trying to like be like me with learning more. Like with taking something from Like anytime we've had conversations and you know, we get into these types of discussions like I can take some stuff from there. So I can take things from you and be like, "Well, I'm taking that and I'm keeping it." Like and I'm I But in order to do that, I think that you have to be at a certain place with yourself where you're willing to tell yourself that you're wrong. You could think something so much and then you have an argument with someone and it's very hard to be like, "Oh, [ __ ] I'm wrong." That person's right. And completely change your point of view. >> Mhm. >> I like to think sometimes I can do that. And that helps tremendously. Like I really think that everyone has something to offer. Like everybody has something that will help you. Whether it be And it could come in the form of like horrible advice. And then like that's also good. >> to do that. >> Exactly. But you can learn from everyone. But making it I think it's a mistake to only look at people that are like your heroes as like the people you need to follow. There's a lot of people around you that you can get things from that are going to help you. And people who will have no don't know anything about your job or anything like my mom will say something that I'm like, "Huh." Okay. And it doesn't It's not always applied to the job, but it's also like my life. My actual personality and the way that I approach life. The only way to grow is to completely it is to constantly admit when you're wrong. >> Mhm. >> In my opinion, that feels like I try to take responsibility for everything that goes wrong in my life. I truly try to do that because that's what I can control. I can't really control how other people are going to react or what's going to happen or whatever, but how when something bad happens to you, to me, I think that there's an opportunity there when something bad happens to you where I can learn from this or I can something from it or I could just put up a wall and be like, "Wow, that person's [ __ ] up." But like what is your involvement in that? You know, like something an easy example is if you're in a relationship and you get cheated on, it's like well, what the [ __ ] Like she she's a [ __ ] She's the whatever, but like what is your involvement actually? And I'm not saying that let's let's absolve her, you know, shouldn't have [ __ ] Steve for sure. But like what could you get from that situation? Are you capable of getting to the point of like, "Even though that I was the safest option and I was taking care of her and I was nice to her. I never cheated on her. I never scream at her. I clean the house and I do whatever." Maybe you're boring though. And and that's fine. If >> you picked wrong. >> Or that too. >> you weren't discerning in who you chose. >> Sure, but like it's on you in some capacity cuz even if you are, let's say like a boring guy or it's like super vanilla and you they're just it feels like every day is predictable and whatever and she got bored. It's okay to admit that like, "Okay, that's something that happened to me." It doesn't mean that you have to change cuz if you don't want to, you don't have to. But at least know your involvement while still you could still go like, "Fuck you." But then you have to move on with your life. >> learn from it as well. >> It already happened. Like there's no reason to not think about it and get something from it. >> I've learned from over a thousand podcast episodes that the easier you make your health routine, the more consistent you'll be. It's like golf, right? You want to keep it simple and not mix a bunch of pills. You want the eye of the tiger, not the DUI of the tiger. That's why I'm such a huge fan of AG1. One scoop contains 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food source ingredients in a single daily drink. And now they've taken it a step further with AG1 next gen, backed by four clinical trials. 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It's that they know if they did a little bit of self or a lot of self-reflection, they made a mistake, too. And just blaming the other person and doing the [ __ ] you thing, >> Yeah. >> allows you to hide. It gives you distance from where you could have been responsible. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's the reason people would rather get angry at someone else than get angry at themselves. And a lot of the time we have betrayed ourselves in situations. You have. It's like, you know, I I maybe I should have [ __ ] paid a little bit more attention. Maybe I should have seen the red flags earlier. Maybe I should have heeded the advice from my business partner with that deal or whatever it might be. That doesn't mean that you're a bad person. >> Not at all. >> It doesn't mean that you're less than or irredeemable or that things are broken, but it does mean that you've got something to learn, and kind of like if you're robbing yourself of the opportunity to learn that thing. It's already [ __ ] You might as well try and get something good out of it. >> That's why like everyone looks back at them like well I don't know about everyone, I don't know how you did in school, but like a lot of people that I know have like looked back in like high school or whatever and be like bro I wish I like tried harder cuz then I could be you know blah blah blah. It's sort of like one of those things where it's like you're already presented the situation the bad thing already happened. What can you get from it? Cuz you could walk away with something that could help you. And even if you've done the work and there's a realization of like you know what I'm I'm just not responsible. That's okay, too. >> That's also a takeaway, which is a a lesson for you to take. But if you don't if you don't do the self-assessment. You know the word that's coming to mind as you say it? Alchemy. Like turning something that's kind of useless and shitty into something that's really valuable. And sometimes what you have in the beginning versus what you get out is like way smaller. But this is already shitty. >> Yeah. >> So you might as well try and work a little bit of alchemy on this thing to convert it into something that's a little bit more beautiful. >> Yeah, I mean I I feel that and I feel that way about everything. I mean every single time like you know me and Greg work creatively on a lot of different projects and I I I think that we're very capable people. I mean I just talked all that [ __ ] and I could do anything. Um but I we've we've run into massive roadblocks where people are like no. But that's good cuz it's like and it's funny cuz it's like we were really confident about that and then we got our ass whooped. But that's I that's where I like to be because you know this sounds so corny and it's like over said in so many ways, but it's it's just very true that like when you do fail and when you get your ass whooped there's it's it's good because you just closed a possible door and now you have less doors to choose from. Like there's more of a chance of it happening now cuz you just learned something. Someone slammed the door in your face. Turn around, there's other ones. You know, like and you can learn from that and and most of the time, especially with creative projects, you will get advice on why it did not work or why it's not good and you should try to find a reason. Like, okay, I'm okay with it being wrong. I don't need to defend this thing and I don't need to be like 100% right. Like, no, [ __ ] you. This is a good script or whatever. Like, find out why it's bad. Find out why it's bad and then like if you really care about that thing. You will find those answers. >> Or else you're just going to keep making the same mistake over and over. >> Or you won't make another thing ever again and you'll keep holding it and being like, "No, I swear to god this thing's going to get greenlit." You're like, "Dude." >> Oh, it's the guy if coach had only put me in then I would have got my NFL contract. >> [sighs and gasps] >> If I didn't blow out of my knee. >> [laughter] >> If I didn't blow out my knee. >> But if you keep running around Austin like you'll be fine. Uh >> Dude. >> You mentioned your mom a bunch. >> Yeah. >> You're still super close with your mom, right? >> Mhm. >> Millennials and Gen Z are basically cutting off their boomer parents at record rates and calling it healing. You know? >> Yeah. >> What do you think about that? Like, families never felt more optional and I think that's worth interrogating. >> That's crazy. Um You know, I I don't know if I have a unique or niche >> abnormally good relationship. >> Yeah. So, like I I think I'm probably in the minority, but my I'm very close with my family and you know, like there there's just like conversations. Like, my my financial advisor has like said stuff like sometimes being like, "Yo, just you know, a lot of people like you you got to when you're doing the will or you're doing whatever like you just be careful because a lot of people like would My family has never asked me for anything. They're only supportive people. Especially my mother has never asked me for anything. No one has ever asked me for anything. Like, even my friends, like they're just supportive and they're not supportive in the way that they're going to show up with their face painted and [ __ ] but they'll they'll be supportive. Uh you know, I don't know I don't know what I'm doing that would call for that anyway, to be fair, but that would be nice for them to show up while I'm recording a podcast and just stand in the corner. But, uh yeah, my my my my family I'm very close to them. I can't imagine that. When I see things like online or you see it like in a movie sometimes or you kind of hear it that like someone has a brother that they don't talk to. I'm like, that's outrageous. Like, I would never let that fly. Like, I would fly across the world and kick my sister's door in and be like, you're going to [ __ ] sit here and talk to me and we're going to figure this thing out. You know, like that's that's how we deal with issues. Like, there's issues. >> Home invasion. Yeah. Kidnapping. Whatever I have to do, really. I can do anything. I kidnap. >> Yeah. >> Um but I I uh yeah, like that's how we kind of deal with problems. When there's something going on or whatever, like no one talks [ __ ] behind people's backs in my family. It's like, you're going to hear it cuz it's going to come out right now. And then it usually just results in like a very easy thing that you can kind of get over. There's there's rarely a long-lasting, under-the-table grudge or anything like that. >> Mhm. >> Cuz someone will just call it out. It's like, "Are you [ __ ] still mad?" Like, it'll just you know, like it's just kind of like that. We were all just like very close to >> That is the most Queens approach to something. >> What are you [ __ ] still mad? The [ __ ] But my mom, like my mom is great. Uh both my parents are great. My My father lives in North Carolina now and my mom uh is is in New York. So, there there was an age where I think you know, I and I don't want to speak for parents cuz I don't have children, but I think that there's probably in my life it was important that my mom is my mom. She's always my mom and we can't be friends, but we but there was a shift in she she she stopped trying to be like this mother that's going to make decisions for me. You know, like >> What age did that happen? >> I don't even I I I can't really pinpoint it. I would say it's probably younger than >> When did you notice it? >> Oh, I didn't notice it until like maybe five, six years ago. That that that was something that like meant a lot to me. >> You're just being allowed to freewheel at some point in the past and I didn't notice it. >> Yeah, like just giving me the space to make mistakes and probably do things that she wouldn't do and like she knows I'm about to do them and just kind of like, all right, you know, like and there's a there's a trust in that. She doesn't look at me with like, all right, good luck, idiot. Like it's kind of like there's there's a trust that I'm going to let you be creative. Like you have to let your children kind of like be who they are. Like you can't make the same kid over and over again. Where it's like, this is how you raise a child. They do this, you have to do that. This one has to do that too and whatever. Like children are very different, obviously, and I think that if people, you know, maybe this one's really creative, this one's really into whatever and this one's really into that and you kind of have to notice those things and let them do that. And I really believe that my my my mother specifically because in the years where I started to realize what was going on, uh we kind of had that relationship where it felt like her guard came down a little bit as the mother and she like let me into her life a little more. So I was like able to let her into and then it felt more friendly. But she always says, she's like, we can't be friends though. She always says that. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I suppose that's so I'm thinking about what that moment must be like for parents. You know, cuz you've raised this kid. It's For me, I'm an only child, >> Yeah. >> even more [ __ ] pressure, even more vigilance, even more everything. The entire genetic lineage rests on the [ __ ] shoulders of this one guy who's still childless. And >> [laughter] >> they let you out into the world and they've spent all of this time keeping you alive and raising you and wiping your ass and then still wiping your ass when you're an adult just metaphorically. And now you're out there and then at some point they need to go I actually think either I don't know if he's good without me but I'm going to let him make mistakes or I think he's good without me and I'm not needed anymore. >> Right. >> And both of those situations, the first one the first one's probably even harder because the compulsion to step in to if you watch your kid run toward a table with a sharp edge, you go and I pick them up. And you at 19 as you're about to make your first investment or at 23 as you're about to get into a long-term long-distance relationship with someone that your mom knows is bad for you. You know, there's always a I'll pick you up and stop you from banging your head on the table. There's always that impulse. >> Yeah. >> And at some point >> [clears throat] >> you need to go I think he can handle the head bang. >> Yeah. >> And I think it's actually good for him to learn from it. But that must be those two things must be really really [ __ ] hard for parents to >> I imagine like that would be and I'm sitting here as a person who tries to control every single part of his [ __ ] life that when I have children I'm I'm going to be like, "Yeah, yeah, sure. Go ahead, do it. I'm fine." Like I you know, that's probably much easier said than done. Uh yeah, I mean that's impossible to I I can't even imagine like having a child and feeling like I'm completely responsible for this this thing's life and then it's it's going to come to a certain point where you have to just completely walk away and be like I I am no longer the the coping mechanism. >> in charge. >> Cuz then you would cuz then it becomes enabling in a way. Or it be you're like hindering your child by being like, "I'm always going to be there for It's like they have to feel a little alone like their their their decisions are like on them and they have to deal with the repercussions. You can't fix everything, obviously. Um but yeah, I don't know. >> That's why a lot of people [ __ ] talk university. I'm friends with guys that have largely self-taught in a lot of different things. Like they they went to university for a thing and then have found success doing the opposite thing. >> Yeah. >> And they're the lesson that they've taken away from that is university's [ __ ] And with the internet and especially now AI, you can teach yourself anything you want at way faster pace and follow your passions and change and all the rest of it. But I think one of the biggest takeaways from going to uni for me, I was at uni for 5 years and then stayed in the same city for another 8 uh was moving out of the house and living on your own with other people. That you kind of thrust into the situation. You just need to make it work. >> Mhm. >> Uh unless you stop, obviously. But for the most part, you're you're stuff's still on the side of train tracks. As opposed to I'm going to move in with my friends and then quickly going to stop. There's more guardrails. Is that well, I'm here for a purpose and if I don't like this hall of residence, I can just go to the hall manager and say I want to move to a different flat. Like there's a degree of support there. What it teaches you is, okay, I actually both the parents and the kids are kind of It's It's another umbilical separation, right? It's another cutting of that cord. And this time it's geographically a little bit. Sometimes it's far. But that I think is can be really important. I certainly know for me only child uh very insular quite introverted family life that was a huge changing point. Like I grew up I my level of socialization and understanding of the world tripled by the time I was 21 from 18. >> It was insane. >> It's the same reason why it's like important to put very young children in school and like in like pre-K or something. It's like they learn socialization. It's kind of the same but on a different level obviously like going to college and like now you're on your own you're around a bunch of kids and you're going to be like living by yourself for the first time and you know, for all the reasons that you just said but it's funny how that like kind of comes around again. >> Dude, I saw this tweet earlier on today. You're not autistic. You just work from home and it's making you weird. >> [laughter] >> I wonder if I can use the fact that I'm an only child as an excuse. >> Dude, I I'll tell you when I was when I moved into my first real apartment cuz I had an apartment that I just like film stuff at and it wasn't really like a real apartment but then my first real apartment when I moved into that one I felt so weird. Like it felt like I'm never I I bought like a little bench and some weights and stuff and then I quickly threw that out cuz I was like I need to get a gym membership. Well, yeah. Well, then I was like I got to I was like I got to leave this apartment cuz I'm working here. I live here. Now I'm going to work out here? I'm not leaving here. >> [laughter] >> Like I'm not leaving like I'm nuts. I'm like walking around and I'm you know, whatever it was just it's so bad to do that. I got a gym membership at a place like a half an hour away just so I could like drive and go there. >> We hear you. >> We got to talk about that insight that we came up with last night that if you're a guy who doesn't have a girlfriend in the house after 7:00 p.m. you kind of go a bit insane. >> Dude. >> What do you do? >> I I can tell you I have a friend who is single and lives on his own now and I just get like random headstand pictures. I'm like are you doing headstands? Like what are you doing? You're stretching? Like It's 8:30. What are you stretching for? You getting Like, how hard do you go to bed? Like, it's time for sleep soon. Like, what are you doing? Like, it's like random things like that. I think I asked him recently. I was like What do you do all day? >> He's a very busy guy. I don't want to take away, but like during those hours, it's like how do you entertain yourself? Cuz at this point, I don't know how to do that when like my fiance leaves, I'm kind of like What the hell do I do now? Like, there's no one here. Like, I just kind of like walk around. I like clean [ __ ] and then I just like There's not much to do. Like, I'm like, oh, this is kind of boring. Am I going to go for a walk? I don't [laughter] know. >> You find yourself building weird hobbies. So, I was leaving the house last night to go to dinner with you because you're an insane person and decided to have dinner at 7:30 p.m., which for me is like Is that not [ __ ] late? >> What are we talking about? >> That's pretty [ __ ] late. >> Is this a normal thing? >> That's not late. That's [ __ ] >> 7:30's late? >> Okay, we'll split 50/50 in the room. 7:30 Yeah, well, you was on [ __ ] Eastern time, yeah. >> [clears throat] >> Uh So, I'm leaving the house, and his girlfriend's in Costa Rica. He looks [laughter] at me, and he looked really sad, and he was like came up, and he whispered, and he was like I don't know what to do. >> I was like, "Where are you going?" >> know what to do. Like, puppy dog eyes. He's like I don't know what to do. I'm like, "George, it's fine. You'll do I don't know what you'll you'll read stuff or whatever." And I got back, and he'd written all of this stuff, and he had posted notes everywhere. So, he'd done He was doing headstands. Yeah. He'd done his equivalent of doing headstands. Yeah. And then at 10:30 p.m., just 11:00 after I got back from dinner, I must have heard him sneeze 15 times in a row. >> What the hell was he doing? >> [ __ ] 15 times in a row. This is agitating to me. >> Yeah. >> How annoying must that be if you're the sort of person What's the most number of times you've ever sneezed in a row? >> I've never gotten close to 15. I think you die if you do that. I think I've done like five good ones and then everyone tells you to shut the [ __ ] up. You get two sneezes. >> Imagine 15. >> 15, bro. 15, I mean, I'm kicking this guy out of my house. >> Get the [ __ ] out. I know you wrote those post-it notes earlier on and you've been lonely tonight, but that does not excuse you sneezing 15 times. >> 15's crazy. Is he dead? >> I what I I don't actually haven't seen him today. >> Yeah, he's probably dead, dude. You should probably check on him. Doesn't it Isn't like a There was like an old like thing it's like if you sneeze, your like heart stops. I'm like 15. >> Ask ChatGPT if you sneeze, does your heart stop? >> Or something like that. >> [ __ ] wait for this. >> Uh The AI's going to be like, "What idiot asked that question?" >> [laughter] >> No, what does happen is sneezing briefly changes the pressure inside your chest. That pressure change can slightly affect blood flow, momentarily alter your heart rhythm, which is why some people feel like their heart skips a beating heart. >> Oh, so he's altering his blood flow like crazy in there. >> But the worst thing was I thought it was over and then there would be a 30-second break. >> And then it would come back. >> I'm like, [ __ ] what are you talking about? >> loud He's a loud sneezer? >> loud one. He's got a big nose. >> I I but I would prefer that. I hate people who sneeze like inside their bodies. It scares me, dude. It's like I'm like, "Yo, you're going to hurt your neck or something. Like your eyes are going to explode out of your head. Like chill." Like I have a friend that does that. I'm like, "Yo, just open your mouth." Like just It comes out. It just comes out naturally if you just like let your lips flap. >> think >> poof. >> I wonder if there's a personality trait if there's a commonality between the sort of people who keep the sneezing. >> Oh, man. What is it I mean, it's not really like a learned thing, I guess. You just kind of like >> It's weird when you're driving. I get scared when I'm driving. >> Bro, first of all, you want to talk about that? My dad, by the way, I'm convinced he's allergic to the sun. I don't know what's going on, but when he he would sometimes he would drive me to school when I was in high school. We would get in the car. First thing he does is before he starts the car, he would take his key and clean out his ears with the key, right? It's just the guy he is. I I don't know that and he's deaf. He's not deaf, but he might as well be. >> deaf after sticking the car key in his >> If he went to the doctor, they'd be like, "You're deaf." But he cuz he can't hear. But he's been shoving car keys in his ears like that. Then he would start the car, right? And that would take 10 minutes cuz it's a you know, it's a completely [ __ ] up minivan. Uh and then we would be driving on the highway and he would he would let off 10 on the highway. We're going 60, 70 and he's sneezing and I'm looking at him like, My guy, we're we're drifting, okay? We're not in a middle lane right now. Like we're on the we're on a highway. You got to chill the [ __ ] out. And this So, I was scared for my life mostly when I was going to high school because of that. Um yeah, and there was a time where he used to drive around in a like a work van cuz he he was like a um he worked construction. He would throw us in the back. There wasn't any seats back there. It was just me and my brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's tools, there's you know, 2 by 4s and wood and >> There's a washing machine. >> There's yeah, there's like a [ __ ] miter saw there and I'm like, I'm sitting on the edge of the miter saw hoping that he doesn't hit the brakes cuz the thing's going to go right into my spine. But this is like what he would do and I I really believe that he's allergic to the sun. Like he's an interesting guy. His whole tooth came out one time. The entire tooth. The entire tooth. Like if you Google cartoon tooth, like the ones on commercials that have like a toothbrush and dance, it would they got like the fangs or whatever, that came out of his mouth. How does that even happen to a person? >> When? What was he doing? >> Sleeping. He wasn't even chewing gum. He wasn't doing anything. It just popped out of his mouth. >> You know what he should have done? Headstands before he went to bed. >> I went to church. I prayed. >> Headstands. >> Yeah, no, he's not doing a headstand. Not now. >> That's how hard he sleeps. >> Dude, he his tooth popped out in his sleep, which is insane. And then he just like Usually when that happens >> his teeth. He's got to grind his teeth. He's got to be. >> Bro. I mean, it's either that or the >> same demons that got Tucker Carlson in his sleep. >> How strong is his jaw? Is it like the [ __ ] gorilla's jaw? Or is someone walking in there and hitting him with a bat in the mouth? >> Over a bunch of years, I think you can pretty easily like crack a tooth by grinding your teeth. >> But the tooth was intact. It was a tooth. It was just a tooth. I'm looking at a tooth, dude. >> Actually, yeah. >> Like it just his body was just like >> Was it a molar? Front tooth? >> I'm not a dentist. I don't know if it was a molar, dude. >> [laughter] >> It was an incisor, whatever the [ __ ] that [ __ ] is called. Um I have no idea. What is that going to do for you, also? Knowing which tooth it was. Which tooth was it? Oh, okay. >> [laughter] >> Makes Makes so much more sense. >> It wasn't one of his front tooth though. Like you could hide it. It was It was one of the the back ones. Maybe it was a molar. Um but it popped out and usually you're like, oh [ __ ] I should go to the dentist because I'm probably dying. That's what I would think. And then uh he just put it in his sock drawer and he went back to sleep. And then we never really talked about it until now. Now he's going to see this thing and he's going to remember like Yeah, your [ __ ] tooth popped out. Yeah. Oh, [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> I need to get that out of my sock drawer and put it back in. Oh, [ __ ] >> Yeah. Where is that thing? We kept it though. We kept it. My parents used to keep our teeth. Your parents do that? Is that a American thing or British thing? >> I think that's a British thing. >> You got You You They kept your teeth? >> Well, yeah, cuz our teeth look like cigarettes. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys have crazy teeth. Bro, it's crazy how some of the like the uh stereotypes like I heard someone uh from uh someone from Europe was like >> [laughter] >> I saw a TikTok of being like walking around an American airport and it's like this is like insane. Like everyone just like looks what you think an American looks like, an overweight person with Shake Shack in her hand or something like that. But then the UK thing is like, "Oh, they got bad teeth and beans on toast." Whatever. First of all, beans on toast, low-key, I like it. >> High-key. >> High-key though, teeth are >> not good. >> Not that I have the best teeth in the world either. >> But they got some stuff going on over there for sure. >> Not good. >> What is that? Is that just like >> I don't know. We've got nationalized health care. So, I think the fact that you can get the the number one reason for bankruptcy in America is medical bills is like [ __ ] insane. But >> Just don't pay it. Easy. Boom. Not paying it. >> I think you I think that's how you go bankrupt. >> I'm not but you're not getting the money from me. Where you getting it? >> But then they do they not come and take stuff from you? Like your house? And your dog? >> My dog? People are getting murdered if they try to take my dog, dude. The shotgun blast is coming through the [ __ ] door. You're not even going to get in here. >> Okay. I can see the diplomacy that has gotten me through your career so far. Between kidnapping your sister and kicking a door down. And >> It's passion. It's just passion. >> Yeah, dude. It's my passion. What is my ambition without direction? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> When I've got an Academy Award, I can shoot everybody I want in the face. >> No, no, no. I mean, I yeah, some of the medical bills are just insane. >> But the dental thing, I don't get because we have free dental. >> Yeah. >> So, everybody goes to get their teeth looked after. And maybe the dentists in the UK are not good. I don't know. Some there'll be a dentist listening that'll say, >> "Well, actually, it's because of Maybe it's just you know, just where you are in the world." >> I have no idea. >> Does [ __ ] weather give you bad teeth? >> I don't know. It's sometimes >> Some [ __ ] weird Jared, have you ever considered that you might have a drinking problem? >> I don't consider a lot, Chris. >> Well, you drank an entire case of Athletic Brewing Co. last night. >> But they're non-alcoholic. >> And that's not a problem? >> Sorry, man. I I just kept chugging waiting wait regret to creep in. Never happen. See, most people, like Jared, don't want to change what they drink. They just don't want the next day to be a complete write-off. And that is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. They make the best NA brews on the planet. You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'s best-selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you or, best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped direct to your door. Right now, get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. Near beer terms and conditions apply. Athletic Brewing Company, fit for all times. Bottoms up. >> [laughter] >> All right, so you said um you've got these sort of two sides of your brain that are working and you've got the business side and then you've got the creativity side. >> Mhm. >> How do you protect the creative side of your brain when the business side never stops demanding attention? >> Fortunately for me, I don't really need to do that. The the the >> for a long time. >> What? >> You did have to do both of those things. >> No, no, I'm saying I I I don't have to separate them. >> Okay. >> Like I can be creative and that helps my business. Um I'm not good at multitasking. So, like if I like if I'm as much as I will be like I'm listening when I'm texting someone and someone's talking to me, I can't I can't even hear anything. And I have this thing too with like noise. Like I think it's called misophonia, but it's like if there's like a couple of sounds going on, I just can't. I'm so distracted. >> too. >> I can't read unless it's like >> Huh? >> I just thought >> Yeah. >> I thought that was being an only being a autistic only child again. >> It could be. I don't know, but I mean, someone gave me >> there's noises going on, you're super easily distracted and you can't focus. >> I it would really bother like certain noises like really bother me. Not not certain specific noises, but when they're like if the TV is on and someone's phone is playing like a video really loud, like I am I can't even focus. Or if I'm watching a movie and the AC is on even, I like I got to shut it off. Like I can't. Like I it I just can't like focus. The reason why I say that is because if I had to separate those two things, I don't really think I could. I have worked normal jobs before, obviously, and once the like the the creative thing is so intense with me that there are times where I had an idea one time for an app. I don't even know what's going on. I don't know why. I I didn't actually want to do it, but sometimes when I an idea will pop into my head and I and I have to flush it out right now. And and I sent it to Greg and he's like, "This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen." And I was like, "Yeah, I just needed to get it off." But I I was driving to the gym and I had this idea and I was like, "Ooh, that sounds like a good idea. Like I'm going to start whatever." And I was like in my car doing it and then I got so distracted like I have to go home so that I could finish this. So I left and I went home and I didn't even get into the gym. I just turned my car around and went home. And I typed this whole thing out and I was like, "Yo." And I sent it to Greg and I was like, "What do you think about this?" He's like, "So stupid." And I'm like, "Cool. I'm going to the gym." >> Go [laughter] back to the gym. >> But that's how intense it is for me. Like I can't multitask and feel like like once I'm creatively inspired by something, like it has to happen now. Like there are so many times where I don't know how this happens, but I'll wake up first thing and write like a joke or something. I wrote most of my set for MSG that I did at MSG at that time. Like waking up and being like, "Oh, I don't even know what that's about." Cuz it wasn't about necessarily about my dream. >> Okay. So I the line between sleeping and waking, I can give you at least a bit of science that might explain it. >> Oh, love this. >> So uh the brainwave that you want to get into when you're in flow state is one step away from what you're in when you're sleeping. So, a lot of engineers throughout history would and Nobel Peace Nobel Prize winners would sit on seats with ball bearings or something metal in their hand over a plate. And they'd be thinking about an idea, but they'd be relaxing and they'd have their eyes closed. And as they were drifting off and drifting off and drifting off, and then their hand would open as they fell asleep and they'd drop the loud thing into the plate and it would clang. And then they would get up to try and work on the problem. >> [ __ ] no way. >> Yep. Yep. >> That makes so much sense. >> It's how a bunch of the biggest problems in science have been solved. >> What? >> Yep. >> Damn, I'm going to start paying attention in the [ __ ] morning now. >> Well, there's another lot So, the guys from Flow Research Collective who work on the science of flow, they try to engineer people to get into flow states more easily. The number one hack, the easiest hack for anybody to get into flow, begin working within 30 seconds of waking up. >> Dude, that is fascinating to me. Cuz that's literally like I had no explanation for it cuz I had I don't even remember the dream that I had, but I woke up and I immediately had like a joke. >> Yep. >> Like I don't like I but I would write it down. >> you'd have gone to bed thinking about maybe something to do with MSG? Like it would have been a part of your evening? >> Maybe. >> Or it's just in the back of you What you care about it. What you're doing is you're allowing your subconscious to come through at least a little bit. But yeah, that line between sleeping and waking, if you're struggling with an idea I mean, that's why people say it's all the cliches are kind of true, which is sleep on it. >> Yeah. >> Sleep on it. Sleep on it. See how you feel in the morning. And a lot of the time you've consolidated your memories and your thoughts from yesterday, last night, and now it's the morning and you've kind of got it in a new perspective. There you go. >> Wow. >> using science, dude. >> Honestly, that is fascinating. I'm stealing that. >> Take it. Take it. Put it in the pocket. >> Wasn't going to ask. >> Uh there's a a a line that I [ __ ] love, which is you can't white knuckle creativity. >> Mhm. >> That I think when you try and force it, it almost never comes out. Like your best ideas, your best jokes. Have you ever Can you ever remember a time when you've tried to really force a piece of creativity and it's come through? Cuz for me it it never happens. >> No, I'm >> It's like an erection. The harder you try for it, the more it runs away. >> Runs away. >> It does run away from you. >> good metaphor. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah, I I'm horrible at that. Especially like it's like, okay, I'm going to set aside time and I'm going to do this thing. >> I can't do it without someone's help. I think that Greg's probably better at that cuz we work like creatively on a lot of things, but he's he's also very good at like prompting me. Like if I can get a prompt or I can get like a something, like a seed of an idea, then I'm I'm in and I can we can start doing this right now. Um but for me to go from zero to a creative thought, like that's always been very difficult for me. >> Riffing is riffing is significantly easier. >> Insanely. >> Yeah. >> Insanely. Yeah, like that is better. >> I have never been in a writer's room, really, for much, but for Newtonic we do skits and sketches and stuff for the different ads and new flavor releases and things like that. And then we've done some for my tour announcements. And I didn't realize that what we were doing was sitting in a writer's room, right? I'm aware that this has been done for like [ __ ] 100 years. And people realized that if you come in with an idea and you have a bunch of people who are all working on the same thing at the same time, you go, "Why don't we No, no. Well, what if we" and you bounce that around, but it doesn't just need to be constrained to people that are making movies. >> Right. >> be anybody in a team. You know, okay, let's just come in with some ideas and talk about what the [ __ ] going on. And if you've got one person that's at least a bit diligent, the person who's got a [ __ ] ton of creativity kind of gets jumping off points. But I don't know about you, but I get really excitable and enthusiastic when stuff like that. I'm like, "Ooh, ooh, yeah, yeah." And And then But it does need that And it's like rolling a boulder down a hill. Just needs that push at the start. But I'm really bad at pushing it. I'm really [ __ ] good at rolling down a hill. >> Yeah. And sometimes all it takes is a question or like even the worst idea I've ever heard to be like, "No, this." Like it's like I just can't go from zero to 100. Like No, it's zero to one. Zero to one, yeah. Definitely. And then one to 100 piece piss. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Like it's just It's one of those things that like I just need to be sort of prompted or whatever because I I can like kind of put things off. And part of that I think is kind of like I when there's pressure, I feel like I can perform. And I Like if there's pressure, like I'd rather that be on me cuz I feel like, "Okay, I'm We're going to live I I I can live and die by like my decisions or whatever." But I just need that like that little push. Like if it's up to me, like it's all through school or whatever, like I'm up the night before like finishing things and and whatever. Like I can't get ahead of it because I don't know. Like I mean, I think this is a horrible like way to be. Like you could stack things and kind of get ahead on those things. Like Now it's different. I mean, professionally, it's it's a little easier to Like I've I've had a lot of practice, but it's not natural to me. I've had to work at it like very Like I've had to work on it a lot to get to the point where I can come up with like ideas out of thin air. Um I would say an overwhelming majority of any sort of creative decision or thing that I've ever made in my life has come at like out of nowhere. Like it kind of just enters your brain. But if we're like having a conversation about um you know, we're we're doing the the new tour at the end of the year and it's like, well, we have to create a a brand new show. And I won't just do that. I have to have Greg be like, so, we need a new show. Here's what I was thinking like an idea like, hey, how do what do you think about this as an idea? And then magically I'll have four ideas and then I'll be able to be like, okay, you know, whatever. Like I need I like that is where I it like unlocks ideas that are probably in there, but I can't start the conversation for some reason. Also, Greg and and Frank love to say that well, everyone, they love to say that like >> [laughter] >> there is sometimes they'll have an idea and then a week later I'll say their idea and act like it's mine. >> [laughter] >> And they're like, oh, yeah, no, no one said that. No big deal. I'm like, wait, what? Someone just said that. Because I'm I'm like when someone says something, I'm like, okay, I'm like really taking it in. And I can't do two two things at once. So, I'm like walking around with it and not actively thinking about it, but like it's there. So, by the time it comes back, I've already forgotten the origin and it's like I've just been lost in the idea or something and now it just comes out and people are like, yeah, [ __ ] said that. I'm like, okay, sorry. It's a great idea. >> guys. Sorry. >> Yeah. >> Uh don't take yourself too seriously, but do take the work seriously. >> [snorts] >> Absolutely. I mean, that's it's it's similar to what I was saying before where you have to be humble. Like don't take yourselves too seriously. I mean, especially me at the end of the day like, the [ __ ] am I doing? I'm like, you know, I'm not changing lives here. Like I'm trying to be funny, trying to be entertaining. I'm doing a podcast with my friend that I've known the longest and I have like a very uh you know, it's it's demanding, but like it's it's a fun job ultimately. And like my job is to have fun. And I do take it very seriously, especially at this point because I think that a lot of people, from what I've seen, like our fans, they got a lot of a lot from it. It helps them escape things. Um I don't necessarily feel that part because that's hard to imagine that I could be that for someone, even though I can very much imagine other people being that for me. Um I can't imagine that. Uh So I I take it very seriously because I I want to earn it. I want to be good at something. I want other people in the space to respect the things that I've done and the approach and those sort of things. But at the same time, I'm not over here like, you know, I'm changing the world or I'm doing whatever. And I don't I don't know that I'll ever have that, to be honest with you. I mean, I just don't I don't think that helps anybody to take yourself super seriously and act like, you know, just arrogant about their decisions. Like even when you get the thing that you've been working for for so long, like now's not the time to be like, I [ __ ] told you. Cuz that also feels like, did you do that in spite of someone? Like I'm not doing anything in spite of somebody or because I'm insecure and I need to appear a certain way to other people. Like this is for me. I want to do it. And I I enjoy doing it. So that's my motivation. Like I'm trying to just enjoy my life and I'm trying to help as many people as I can. Truly. Like that's truly what I'm trying to do. That's it. And it's very simple and I'm completely content in that. And I'll try to find new ways to do that. I believe that I can find new ways to do that. And that's it. And it's very also very important for me to make sure that everyone is happy while we're doing it because our job is to have fun and to uh entertain other people, but in order to do that, you need to be happy, right? I can't have you be disgruntled. I can't have you feel like And also like my company and the things that the way that I run things, like you're not going to miss a birthday or you're not going to miss your your your marriage isn't going to go by the wayside because of me. Like I'm That's not going to happen. Like we're we're very flexible on what time No one's late to the [ __ ] that I have to do. Like you can't be late to things. I mean, I was late today, but that was like a That was a That was a time zone thing. That wasn't like a respect thing. >> My eyes just kept getting wider and wider. >> LATE, DUDE. BUT LIKE I like no one can be like late for stuff. Like we'll we'll get it done, whatever, but you know, there's there's people who have children and it's like you're you're there for the morning, you're there for you know, the evening and we have a very loose like uh a work schedule. And I want that. I want there to be this balance. I do see my job as an extension of me, but it's a completely different part of my life. My personal life is very important to me and I and I truly like live a a great life. I have a like a a great social life and friends and I like to go out and stuff like that. And I do enjoy my job as well, but it feels like two separate worlds in a way. I It's rare >> does, too. >> It's rare that I would get around people Like I really wouldn't enjoy, I don't think, hanging out with people and the and when I hang out with them, we're always talking about podcasting or you know, just something that I'm doing at work cuz I'd be like, bro, I just like I'm just not interested in it that much, to be honest with you. Like I I I'm interested in it when I'm doing it. I can't do it when I'm kind of like We can acknowledge that I have a job that does that or whatever, but like I'm just not interested in it that much. I don't really watch a lot of podcasts. I don't watch any real YouTubers like or or anything like that. It's just not what I'm into. Like I I I I just have like a normal life and I do this thing on the side. That's kind of like what it feels like. >> I always think about MMA fighters. I'm kind of friends with a couple, but no one super super high level. But if you were friends with [ __ ] Sean Strickland or whatever, and actually Sean's a bad bad example cuz he's an insane >> [laughter] >> Who's a Who's a really normal person that happens to be a super high level Dustin Poirier, yeah, perfect example. Or like Michael Chandler or someone like that. Like just normal dudes that happen like if they didn't wear things that showed off the fact that they're [ __ ] animals. And then you're like You're such a normal guy. Except for this bit of your life. Right. And then in this one area, if I put you in a very specific situation, you're the most abnormal person on the planet. And I guess it's kind of a little like [ __ ] porn star something. Like, "Hey, in this one scenario, yeah, things are kind of extreme. And outside of that, you're probably just a normal [ __ ] dude." >> Yeah. And it's like that much is obvious that like I'm not over here like, "I'm just a normal guy." Like for my life is not [ __ ] outrageous or anything. But I I there is a definite feel of like these things are separate. And it's important for me to have that and to make sure that everyone is has a flexible schedule. I think that's the ultimate dream, right? You want to be able to at least for me and the people that I've hired and keep around me is like we want to be creative. We want to be able to see our families and have freedom to do certain things. And I also encourage anybody that that works for me or does whatever to like if you have your own creative thing that you want to do, I'm in full support of that. Like and if we can help in some sort of way, we will. And I I just My job is a lot easier if everyone's happy. So, I try to keep people as happy as possible. Like of course there's times we have to like sort of reel that in a little bit, but for the most part it's like this needs to be a good experience. When we go on tour like we're not staying in like just this like the cheapest hotel. I'm trying to like book a really cool Airbnb or something that has like a pool and a cool view or whatever cuz I want people to feel like we're we're all going to look back on this thing in our life. This is not a normal thing. Like no one gets to do this. This is very abnormal. And I want people to look back on it and feel like that was such a great time in my life. Like I know that I will look back on some of those pictures and now we have all these memories attached to them. Not just the fact that like oh my god that was so cool that we were able to do that when we were younger, but also like oh do you remember when we went and did this thing too? And when we were blah blah blah like we tried to go to all these cities and do something fun. And it try to get it on camera or like there's photos and things like that. Like I I want it to to be something that you can look back on like super fondly. You know what I mean? So, that that is very important to me. I I do enjoy being able to think about that. Which is an absolute like luxury that I even get to do that cuz a lot of people who are in charge of something they don't they can't. They have shareholders or whatever and it's just about the numbers. It's just me. That's like that. You know what I mean? So, it's like I just have to make sure everyone's super happy and we're all being creative. >> How else do you think about engineering fun? Cuz a lot of people a lot of people take their work seriously, but it can cause them to become quite rigid. It can cause everything to become it can go from serious to stern. If that makes sense. And they're not loose and flowy and not actually finding time to enjoy this process. They're very very focused on the outcome kind of the cost of getting there. >> Yeah. >> How do you think about engineering fun, so it's not sternness when you're doing your work? >> I think that the only way it can get be but can become stern is if you're trying to like manufacture it. Like if you're trying like we're going to have fun. It's like [ __ ] that's not how you do it. You know, like I'm happy right now. I swear. It's like you're not. Like do the things that make you happy. Like follow the excitement. Like do those things. If it doesn't resonate with you and it doesn't feel like in line with what you want to do even if it's good money or whatever. Like I will say no. >> What's the biggest opportunity that you've ever turned down? >> I mean, I turned down doing the tour for a number of years because at that point a lot of people were like you could just go on stage and talk to each other and then you can make a bunch of money doing that. And I'm like that's just not No, that's not cool. Like I'm not doing that and I don't care. Like I don't care. At it there was a time I remember specifically when I was doing YouTube um there was a a brand deal that came in for $75,000. And what they wanted was to for me to And this was kind of abnormal at the time to promote a phone game that was like something with zombies. >> Mhm. >> I was like what? But they wanted which I was okay with doing but I always did uh advertisements at the very end of my video. Um and that's the way I did things because I was like the product needs to be there. I mean people are going to shut it off but like whatever. I'm going to stay true to that cuz I'm building something here. But they wanted me to put it in the first like 30 seconds or a minute. And that's why they were paying $75,000. And I was like I'm not doing that. Like I'm not doing that. And there's there's been other deals. I mean it happens a lot. There's there's been six figure deal deals that I'm like no. I'm not doing that cuz I don't want to do that. >> Because the brand wasn't aligned. >> Or it's like they just want me to do something that I'm not comfortable doing. That I'm just like, no. Like I I won't Why would I do that? Espe- I'm also I'm almost offended that And it used to be worse. My agent one time I was I was uh I did this thing um with The Rock, right? So They This is a good example actually with this. I got hit up through my email from The Rock's team and he was starting his YouTube channel at the time. This was a while ago. And they were going to do this uh the series called Rock the Promo where they would have wrestlers kind of like as a guest host and then they would have like you know, just people who wanted to be whatever they were like cut promos. So they would like have a character >> idea. >> Yeah, so that's that was on the YouTube channel. They asked me to host it to be the guy that hosts and then does like color color commentary. And I was like, oh my god, that's awesome. They're like, yeah, it's The Rock and like the finale you'll you'll be with him and you guys will do it together. And I was like, this is awesome. And they're like, yeah, it's filming in LA and we'll need you there for like 2 weeks or whatever and I was like, oh, forget it. No. Like I'm not doing that. >> Why? >> Cuz I didn't want to go to LA. I I I I was making YouTube videos and I was doing my podcast at the time, which wasn't like super successful or anything, but I like had a schedule and I liked that and I liked my life. You're asking me to go there for 2 weeks. It also at the time didn't pay a lot, but that didn't really matter cuz it could have been whatever. I mean, unless it was like life-changing, then I would have been like, all right, [ __ ] all this, I'm going. Um cuz I I I didn't have a lot of money at that time. But I was like, no, I can't like I'm not doing that. Apparently he really wanted me to do it, so they moved the recording to New York and we recorded it in New York. And then the part that's funny is like that's what I'm saying like it used to be worse cuz when someone tries to incentivize me with money, that bothers me like crazy. If they like you think that you could have bought me with that. It's like, all right, I want you to do this and I'm like I don't want to do that. It's like, all right, what if we give you this money? It's like, what do you think of me that you can buy me into like I just said I don't want to do it. You know what I mean? Like it won't be about the money. So in this situation it was funny. The thing that I hated also back then was like, you're going to a meeting and people start name dropping like, yeah, we work with this and this and this and I'm like, I don't care. Why do I care? Like let's talk about the thing that we're doing. It is it going to be good? Can you be helpful or can I be helpful even? And on the set of by the way amazing thing with the Rock's team and I eventually met him and well that's a cool story that I should tell you but on set the the PA there was like saying something and then she's like, oh yeah uh she like mentioned someone's name and then she was like, oh and I was like, what I was like, what was that? She's like, oh your agent was like try not to name drop cuz that bothers you and I was like, oh god, what if I don't? >> [laughter] >> I was like, whoa, what is this monster that I created? Yeah, I was like, oh my god. I'm like it's not that bad or I'm like not definitely not in this sort of situation because you know, I was just happy to be there. Um but the Rock dude was the nicest guy in my experience. Like I hadn't had any back and forth with him at all during this this thing and then the finale of this thing was filming in Vegas and he was going to be there. He was flying from Hawaii filming one of the Jumanjis I guess and coming back doing this thing then going to host the Mr. Olympia whatever the [ __ ] and then going back to Hawaii in one day. Psychotic. But on the way over to Vegas I'm like on the plane and I'm by myself so I'm like I'm going to just going to kill some time. I'm going to write a sketch and then I'm going to send it to his producer cuz I had his email. And I'm like, oh, if The Rock wants to be on my YouTube channel, like here's, you know, whatever. So, I wrote this thing out and I sent it to his producer. >> [clears throat] >> Never heard anything. But, get to set and he shows up eventually and everyone's like crowding him, you know, whatever, and I'm kind of like I'm like nervous, cuz I'm like, okay, I can't [ __ ] this up. Like I had some lines that I had to whatever and I was like hosting this thing. He comes up to me, the nicest guy in the world. Like like we're boys. Like the guy by the end of the shoot, like we were joking around in between takes. The director's like, all right, [ __ ] stop. Like they he was he was kind of like that. Like, come on, we got to [ __ ] we got time or whatever. Like we were just joking around. The guy who was doing the lighting on the set was like, how long have you guys known each other? I'm like, I just [ __ ] met that guy. He's like, what? I would have thought you guys were friends for years. Like he was super nice to me. At the end of the shoot, he comes up to me and he goes, uh I know you sent that script, but you know, and I was like, what the [ __ ] is he talking about? I had forgotten. I was already like, this is an amazing experience. So, I was like, who the [ __ ] is he talking about? Some script. And he's like, I can't do the script, but what do you say we just like improv like a scene? And he's I was like, okay. And he's like, what do you want the scene to be? I was like, okay, why don't we just have like an argument that, you know, I wasn't your like first or second choice to be host and I'll just get offended by that and at the end you'll just give me a Rock Bottom. And he was like, all right, cool. So, then they turn the cameras on and we just improv'd the scene, one take, and we and I put it out. And like there's a video on my YouTube channel where >> Do we watch that? Can you get that up? I want to see you getting Rock Bottomed. >> If we could find it, I it cuts in the middle. I didn't like hit the deck. I would have liked to. I did get a Diamond Cutter though one time >> What's that? >> from DDP. Diamond Dallas Page. He's like a wrestler and the job that me and Greg like used to we met at, we used to work for this company Elite Daily, he came in to shoot like a video and we all were just like, "Yo, can you give us a diamond cutter?" Cuz there was like a pad that we had, so he just diamond cut in everyone in the office. [laughter] There he is. It was a different time. Don't judge the the tightness of my pants. >> Hey, listen, man. I just want to thank you for doing such a great job on Rock the Promo. >> really appreciate being like your first round draft pick for this. It really That means a lot to me. Thank you. >> Oh, hey, no problem. I don't know first round What is first round? You mean like my first choice? >> Yeah, my Yeah. >> Uh well, you weren't quite my first choice, but hey. >> Wait, hold on. Time out. Hold on. No, no, no. So, I wasn't your first choice. So, they lied to me. You guys lied to me. Great. Because I I was told I was first round Who was first round? >> Hey, easy. >> It was Kevin Hart. I know you guys are like basically dating now. You're hanging out all the time on Instagram. >> Listen, you need to calm down. >> Okay, I'll get I'LL GET OVER IT. >> PLEASE, RELAX. >> Second place is fine. Silver, I'm cool with silver. >> first choice. >> Okay. >> Okay, buddy. Come on. You weren't second choice. >> I wasn't second choice. So, now I'm not second choice. >> No, you're not second choice, either. Listen, I didn't lie to you, okay? But listen, you weren't first choice, but you were a great choice. Right? How about that? Yeah, that's something you tell losers. >> Huh? >> But I'm okay Okay, bronze. I'm on the podium. Whatever. I appreciate Thank you very much. >> What's the matter? >> Third place, it's fine. It's cool. Whatever. It's fine. >> All right. Well, here's the truth. Why are you being an [ __ ] right now? You weren't first, you weren't second, you weren't third, okay? Here's third, right here is here, and you were way the [ __ ] Okay? That's where you were. But it's cool, dude, cuz you did a great job. >> That's unfuckingbelievable. You have some balls in front of all these people just to say some [ __ ] like that to me. >> Get angry like that for >> I'm all the way in the [ __ ] corner with the dirt? There's dust and [ __ ] >> No, you've been sucking dick for beer money for 10 years. I brought you on the show. >> is not true. I've never sucked any dicks for beer money ever in my whole life. >> All right. I know, but it's between us. >> Not one dick. Now, and how do you know that? How'd you just think that people HOW DO YOU KNOW PEOPLE EVEN SUCK DICK for beer money? >> Be grateful. >> Okay? >> Okay, yeah, I'm grateful. >> For movie tickets. How many times? Remember? >> Zero times. Yeah. How many times you go Yeah, I'll get you tickets to my You want to go to my premiere? It's going to be awesome. I And I'm like, yeah, I'm down. And then I get there and you're like and people are like, no, I don't know who the [ __ ] you are. You're not on this list. Very nice of you. Very nice. >> Did you have a good time on the show? Huh? >> It was nice. >> Okay. >> I did. >> All right. >> Come on, buddy. >> Okay, I'm sorry. Thank you. >> Jesus. >> Thank you. I really appreciate it. >> Come on, get out of here. >> Yeah, I know. It was It was It was >> [laughter] >> It was a lot of fun. Um but that was such a crazy thing and that was like very early on in my like career doing this, too. So, it was like a cool opportunity. Looking back on it, I do have regrets of being like, no, not going to go to LA cuz like, who are you to say that you're not going to go to LA? But I give myself some grace because I do think that like, especially at that time, I was like protecting myself. Like I I really wanted to uh I I I felt very strongly about the authenticity thing and I'm like, I have to just do the things that I think are right in this moment and I'll probably be wrong. I mean, even decisions that I make today, I could I will probably look back on and be like, I would have done that differently. But I But you can't You can't like beat yourself up about that. Like that Maybe that was the right choice for that time. >> How do you know the difference between being authentic and impulsive? >> I don't think that I did. I don't think I did. I mean, I I like to think that I'm not a >> You know what I mean? You can make a rash decision like that and go, well, that felt authentic or that feels authentic to me, but it's actually maybe a decision that you haven't been sufficiently considerate around. >> Sure. I I think that I make an effort to not make emotional decisions. So, if I'm very angry and I would like to say no, I'm like, I got to walk away from this so that I can can can make a decision not based on that. So, I think that's a that's a helpful thing um like through therapy is like emotional decision-making, I think I mean, it can be good and bad. It can work out but also you can live to regret that because you're like oh I made that when I was not in the the clearest head space or I I did that in spite of something. Like that's also a a a thing that I desperately try not to do. Like I don't want to do anything in spite of something. Like I I want to do something >> someone else something else. >> Yeah, like that would that would just be like a a an insecurity thing. Like I'm I'm trying to be a secure person which I consider myself like a secure person especially when it comes to like creative stuff like that. Like of course I have moments of insecurity but when it comes to decision making I need to be in a in a point in in like give myself some credit for like you've you've made it this far following your gut and your intuition. So just make a call. And if you're wrong which I've been wrong many times, it's my fault. Fine. But I what I can't live with is someone be like a like a an agent or something being like this is the thing for you. This is what you have to do. And then I end up doing that and I don't like it and it doesn't work out cuz a lot of stuff now doesn't work out for people like creatively like [ __ ] doesn't work all the time. Like that's part of the job kind of. But like if if it was on them I'd be furious cuz then it would feel like oh my god I like I let it go for a second. I let go of the reins and I let someone dictate you know and I and I knew >> Yeah, like I can't even like my failure is that I let you make the decision almost, you know? Like >> There's a the word that's coming to mind is conviction. >> Mhm. >> Doing something with conviction. And both me and George big nose sneezes a lot. Uh co theme for 2026 is high conviction. We both want to be more high conviction with things. So that's when I have a sense that this is the right thing, commit to that thing. >> Yeah. >> And >> [snorts] >> it is way better to be high conviction and fail than low conviction and fail. >> Mhm. >> Way better. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Because at least when you're high conviction and fail, you get to learn, you get to update, you get to oh, I'm [ __ ] okay, like I I I went for that. Next time when I go for it again, I'll do it slightly differently or I'll go for something else. But the low conviction failure thing, you're not even moving. >> Yeah. >> being sort of swept along. You're not learning decision making. And that's it's again, it's that sliding versus deciding thing. At no point did you decide for this to happen. You just sort of fell into it. >> I also want to make it clear that I don't think that I'm just right. Like I think I'm like I It's not that I think I'm right. It's like I think No, actually I did I Maybe that is what I'm trying to say is that if I believe that I'm right that I'm like, "Okay." But I don't think you're wrong. Like I think you're right, too. And I think everyone is right. And I think you need to like trust yourself. Like your intuition, if you can really sit with yourself and you know yourself and you're sitting there like, "This is the thing." You're right. Like you're right. Just believe that you're right. And just keep following that. Like allow yourself to make mistakes. Allow yourself to believe in yourself. And allow the belief to dictate your behavior. Like you'll be surprised where that could bring you. It just like drags you along when you can really be like, "This is what feels like the right decision in this moment." It doesn't even have to be professionally. It could be like personally or or whatever. If you are sitting somewhere and you know like, "Okay, I don't want to make an emotional decision." And you have that awareness and you're like, "I just need to do what's best for me, what I truly believe in my heart." You're right. Like you have to be right cuz it's you. It's your life. Like you're in charge of everything. Like it's your life. You'll make the decisions. Everything is your fault. Everything that goes wrong is your fault. But what that means is that everything that you get out of life is because of you, too, and you should be happy for the good things in your life. And that that can get hard because when things start going bad, you're like, "Oh, I'm [ __ ] my [ __ ] up right now." But, it makes the wins like that much sweeter. I think then when when people can get to the point where one time, it only needs to happen one time where you like really feel deeply about something, and then it ends up being right, and you get the validation or you it's correct, and you get that from the situation, you realize that you can do that. Like, that is a huge moment. Like, I I can feel something so deeply, and then that's how I made my decision, and then it ended up being the right path. That's so powerful. Instead of overthinking, stopping yourself, which a lot of people do, overthinking it and being like, "Well, no, because of this, this, and this, and whatever." Like, just what is the thing you feel? It's like, get make it simpler. And this is why like the authenticity thing I think is important because what what is it just driving you? And And it seems very um almost like selfish in a way, but it's like it's further back than that. It's It's not a self-serving thing. It's like I It's It's just something I just believe. Like, it's a belief in me that I just need to to see play out. Without being, by the way, um I don't even know the right word, but but just like not in like a negative way. Like, I need to get my way because I'm not that person whatsoever. Just there's a belief, though, that I'm like, I just believe that I'm right. And I can be wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that I believed. And I get to a point, and I'm okay with being wrong because that's fine. The only thing that I need is to believe something. I've said that word a thousand times already. But, like, it's true. Like, that's kind of how I feel about all the decisions or every single opinion that I have. Like, I need to believe all my opinions. I don't have any opinions that I'm kind of like, "Oh, I don't know." Or I kind of whatever. Like, if I'm if I spent time with it and I have an opinion, like I have an opinion. And I and I believe in it and I will like fight for it. But, if you say something that completely destroys my [ __ ] my [ __ ] is gone. I'm not I have no ego. I can get rid of it. I will keep this one now. You know, like I'm so willing to learn and uh and to grow. Like, I want that. I I welcome that. I want to be wrong. Like, I want to be wrong. Like, I need to I need to believe that I'm right, but I actually want to be wrong. Like, I actually do. Cuz then that's where the growth comes. Like, now I'm I now I can get better. You know, like actual doing good, like I don't think that a lot of people just want to live in in a comfort zone, right? They just want to live in a space that makes them that just validates them completely all the time and they it's it's whatever. Some Not all people, but like some people want to live in there. I actually don't believe that having comfort every single day of your life will result in some sort of net positive. I think that it's only a matter of time where you get like restless and you'll like create a problem because you don't have any problems. I At least for me and I don't know this to be right. I'm just some idiot. But, it it almost feels like we're humans are not designed that way. Like, you need purpose and part of purpose is challenge. Like, you need something to challenge you. But, if your actions are just putting you back in your comfort zone, what do you get Like, you you're you're setting yourself up to fail almost. Not only you're not growing, forget about that. But, this thing that feels very innate of challenges and purpose of of being a a human being or whatever Whatever that may mean. It's different for everybody. If you don't have that, it's like, where do you think you're going? Like, that's going to deteriorate your mental health almost. You're done? You've already done everything and now you're just going to you're you're just done, you know? Like a part of me doesn't understand why there are people who work on Wall Street that make [ __ ] $80 million a year and they work 80 hours a week still. And it's like, bro, you got [ __ ] $250 million in the bank. Do something else. Like but part of me does get it. Part of me does get why there is that cuz it's like I don't know. That I have like a a weird relationship with it because I do understand the feeling of like it's not necessarily about the money anymore, but I also think that like a work-life balance is very important. I'm not working super hard to have $250 million. I don't care. I don't care about having $250 million. I want to enjoy my life. You know, like I I don't want to like work my entire life and then be and then the payoff is things that I could be doing now. Like you want to you want to hang out with your friends, you want to you know, see your family or spend time with you can. You can. You're going to sacrifice your entire life all these years to what? The end goal is like, well, now I can sit back and relax and just enjoy my time. Bro, you can do it now. >> Have you ever heard the parable of the Mexican fisherman? Have you heard this? >> He's Mexican in this one? I thought he was from a different country, honestly. >> Which fisherman was this? >> I don't know. It could have been a I don't I don't know. >> Okay. An American investment banker was at a small pier on a small coastal town village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat was several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them. The Mexican replied, "Only a little while." The American then asked, "Why didn't you stay out longer and catch more fish?" Mexican said he had enough to support his family's immediate needs. The American then asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?" The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife Maria, and stroll into the village every evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life." The American scoffed, "I have an MBA from Harvard and can help you," he said. "You should spend more time fishing. With the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, and eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman, you could sell directly to the processor, and eventually open up your own cannery. You could control the product processing, and distribution," he said. "Of course, you would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, and then Los Angeles, and eventually to New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise." The Mexican fisherman asked, "But how long will all this take?" To which the American replied, "Oh, 15 to 20 years or so." "But what then?" asked the Mexican. The American laughed and said, "That's the best part. When the time was right, you would announce an IPO. You could sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You would make millions." "Millions? Then what?" The American said, "Then you could retire, move to a small coastal fishing village where you could sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, and stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play guitar with your amigos. Life is often simpler than we make it." >> Yeah, dude. I mean, that's great. It's It's exactly what I'm saying. Like, that's that's so true. Like, I I think that it's tough. Like, a lot of people sometimes they their identity becomes their job. I'm very uh self-aware about that, that I don't want that. Um especially I think that would make me unlikable if my job and uh some sort of like, the the followers and doing live shows and already sometimes people are probably like, "That person probably sucks." Like, they think they're the man or whatever. Like, I separate these things cuz they're they're completely different. I I just want to enjoy my life. Like, I'm I'm already It's already good enough. That doesn't slow me down because I have passions and things that I want to accomplish, but I I never sacrifice the things that actually matter in my life. Like I'm not going to miss a birthday. >> I was going to say, what matters? >> What matters is What matters is is making sure that I'm being a good person, dude. Like honestly, like I just want people when I pass away to be like, "That was a good dude." And like that's pretty much the extent of it. Like I just want that. And I And I Ideally, that would come from you know, the like everybody. I I I want to be as helpful as I can. I do want to make an impact in some sort of way, but I I really just like I just want to be a good dude. And I And I just want to earn things cuz I think that makes me feel good to to know that I'm putting work in and and trying to earn something and I'm getting things back from it. That's a That feels like a really cool exchange. But I I really just want to be a good dude. And And I think there's also this uh this notion online where it's like if you're if you're 20 years old and you're not [ __ ] drop shipping and you're not [ __ ] like into crypto and [ __ ] wearing blue tinted glasses that like you're a [ __ ] loser. Like I don't think it's your life isn't the Lambo, dude. This isn't the end all be all. It's like the Lambo like that everyone's like, "I'm going to get some money then I'll buy a Lambo." It's like you don't need to do that. Like I do think Like I don't want to say that like you know, some people who are very successful will be like, "Oh, well money isn't will won't make you happy." I think that's insane to say that. Like of course it will make you happy. It Having financial security is a massive weight off your shoulders. So that already is like that trumps everything. That like the argument of like it won't make you happy. I get what people are saying when they say that. It's not like you could buy your way to happiness. It's like, "Well, I bought a plane. I got cars." And whatever. It's like, "Yeah, but you're still [ __ ] up emotionally cuz you haven't really spent time doing that and you haven't really seen your family and you know, you worked all this you worked this long for what? For things? For like you know, a a the number in your bank account to be higher? You're like missing the point, in my opinion. Like me I I Like I said, I'm a very social dude. I like making new friends. I like learning new things. I like traveling and getting out in the world and putting myself in uncomfortable situations. That's the only way that I feel like I am growing and I'm obsessed with that. I'm obsessed with growth and just learning about what what the world has to offer. Like and everyone has something to offer, you know? Like I I and I want I wish I could know it all. I wish I could. To to to meet everybody and have a conversation with them and you know, I'm the type of person that randomly like I'll be in a deep conversation with just like a [ __ ] stranger. Like cuz I I enjoy that. I like hearing I always tell I always tell Greg like one of my dream jobs is to be a bartender in like a slow pub. You know, so I could just like you can get to know your regulars and like that just seems like a very like nice thing to to and and not aesthetically. Like I really think that it's a nice thing to be able to sit down and talk to someone and it like feel that sense of community. Like that's the best, dude. Like that's the best. I saw a video recently on Tik Tok where this guy was like interviewing people and he found this old woman and she was talking about pubs and how they're like the greatest thing in the world. And she's like, "You just go to your local pub." And she's like, "I feel like people don't do this anymore. Like you go to your local pub and you know, you talk to the people in there about like your problems and at your job or your relationship and you talk to the bartender and they sometimes they give advice and it's bad advice or good advice, but that sense of community is like a place you can go. Like I'm obsessed with stuff like that. Like I love that and I also love how there's different versions of that. You can never know everything. Everything changes. Everyone's different and everyone's right, I believe. Like everyone's right if they believe they're right, then they are. Like I think that I'm right for me. But not for you if that makes sense. And I think that's sort of fascinating to me. So I I want to get out there and I want to experience all that and I want to feel uncomfortable because that again, that's I get so much from that. It feels very rewarding. And I did make the mistake when cuz I wasn't always like that. I I grew up in a neighborhood Astoria, Queens where if you everything that you want is there basically. At least it was for me. And I had a lot of friends in the neighborhood and you know, whatever and I would barely even go into Manhattan to like hang out or go to a bar. Like it's just like I'm just going to stay here. Whatever. But something in me shifted and I was like I want to see more things. And once that started happening and I started traveling, I was like like the first time that I I took a flight from Paris to Mykonos and I was just looking out the window and it was like, oh my god. Like the world is like massive as stupid as it sounds. By the way, this was like 7 years ago. Um but I was like the world is massive and there's so much out there that like you can see pictures of it, but it's like the pictures aren't going to do it justice, dude. Like get out there and see it. Like the world is so cool and there's so many cool people. Like the idea like a fantasy of just going to some random small town in Ireland and walking into a pub and making a friend is like the greatest thing in the world to me. And like just And like, now you're so lucky because you live in a time where like, you could keep in touch with that guy if you wanted to. You know what I mean? Like, that's such a cool thing to me. It's like, now you got a friend in [ __ ] Ireland, across the water. Like, it's like I don't know, things like that are fascinating. I actually think that is the point. Like, that's the point. And the job is just so I can be able to do that. And I'm fortunate enough that right now, I could do stuff like that. So, I'm good. I just have to fulfill my personal like need to want to create and also make an impact. Like, I if I am given the privilege of being more successful than I am right now, I will give back more. Like, that is something that I want to do and something that's always been in me of like giving back to people, making donations to charities and things like that. Like, I want to feel like I'm doing the right thing cuz I don't need all of it. I don't need all the money and I don't need that sort of thing. Like, I get a lot of joy out of helping people. And I get a lot of joy out of just like of other people being happy. I love that. Like, I I love being in a group of people and everyone's just super happy. But, I did make the mistake at a time where I thought that everyone should want the things that I want, which is wrong. Not everyone needs to be like entrepreneurial and like, chasing something and like, follow your passion and do whatever. Like, find a thing. Like, your job isn't your passion? Find something else and whatever. Not everyone is is wired that way, which is the beauty of it, too. That That was like then you become this person who's like, I I want to save everyone and I want to And And that's wrong, I think. And I've gotten to a point now where you you know, like we were saying earlier, there are some people that are content, the fisherman. Right? I've I was the [ __ ] dude at Harvard. Harvard was never in the cards for a guy like me, but I was that guy where I was like, here's what we can do." You know, whatever. And they're just like, "Bro, I don't want to do that. You want to do that." And it's like, "Oh, yeah." You know, like you can't force that on people, either. So, to make it easier, a very simplified version is like, make yourself happy. Don't do it in spite of anything, and you don't need everyone to do the thing that you're doing. Run your game. That's it. Run your race. And everyone else is running their race. But make sure that everyone around you is happy. Cuz if like that's the really only thing. Dude, if you're content with one fish a day, what the [ __ ] am I going to say? If I'm not content with one fish a day, that sucks for me. I got to go out and fish more. But you're cool, bro. I'm kind of jealous of you, then. You know? Like and just cuz I have more money, it doesn't mean anything at a certain point. If what I want out of life is to truly just, you know, be able to travel and uh see people and learn things and and talk to people and have these types of conversations, and I'm doing it. I got on a plane to get here to have this conversation with you. I'm doing it. What am I going to be upset about? This is the thing that I wanted for so long, and I'm doing it now. So, like I'm playing with house money. So, just realizing that also, and not just getting on the hamster wheel for the sake of getting on it. It's like nothing's ever good enough or whatever. Dude, it's not like free yourself up. If you're looser, I think that things it's easier to kind of get your job done, also. If you're like real strict, like I got to whatever we were talking about before, which is like, "I need to be creative right now, cuz I need to make more money, and then I can do this, and then I then I'll be It's like, "Bro, just just just find what you're doing, and just like try to, you know, whatever. I'm [ __ ] talking in circles now. This [ __ ] New Tonic is killing me. >> [laughter] >> No, man. You're You're infectious. You're really infectious. I'm I'm I'm being serious. I'm being serious. I can see why you're successful. I can see why people follow you. I can see why however many tens of thousands of people sold out Madison Square Garden to come and see you as well. You know, that level of self-belief that doesn't feel tyrannical, doesn't feel like it's overbearing or domineering or or selfish. You like I have a good idea of what I like and I like what I like and I want to try and create a life that helps me to enjoy as much of that as possible is about as infectious of a philosophy as you can get. And I can totally see why you've been successful. >> Thank you, dude. And I and I I appreciate you saying that because sometimes, and I realize the way that I'm talking about it now, it almost sounds like like I'm a freight train and it's like I have this thing in my head and I have to do it my way and everyone get out of my way. It's not like that. Like I'm much softer than that. Like that goes on in here and but mostly I'm scared. Like mostly I'm I'm scared and I'm like second-guessing myself, but I like I'm putting one foot in front of the other because I feel like I have to because there's a voice in my head that I mean obviously I've I've I'm like anxious about things and I'm and I'm scared of certain things or whatever, but there's a voice in my head that's so intense and it's so loud that like you'll [ __ ] do it. Like don't be a coward. Like do it. And like it's so loud that I can't sort of ignore it. But that only exists in here. I'm not like a freight train. Like I'm not like a this like when we're on set or something or when we're talking about ideas like no, no, no, we're going to do it this like it's not like that. It's it's more of like an internal belief thing. >> I had a conversation with a guy called David Deida. He wrote this super famous book in the '90s called The Way of the Superior Man and he's a coach, philosopher, spiritual guide for men and and guys especially that have lost their purpose a little bit and don't really know where they're going in life. And I did the first interview that he's done in a decade a couple of weeks ago. And when I was doing the research to look at him, I went back to the start of his career and this guy has had the most [ __ ] eclectic career that you've ever heard of. He did uh quantum mechanics, then he did pure mathematics, then he worked on AI in the '80s, then he ran a yoga ashram retreat for forever, then he did this coaching thing, then he did a family thing, then he became an author, then he went back and did more AI stuff and he founded company just bounced all over the place and I asked him while we were talking Dude, I I can't really What are you spread? I can't I can't piece together. I can't weave the path of your life >> Yeah. >> in a a straight line. And he said when I don't want to do something or when I'm called to change what I'm doing being out of alignment with that voice is so painful to me, physically painful to me. It feels like someone's wrenching my insides. I don't have any choice. So what from the outside looks like self-belief and bravery and single-mindedness from the inside is actually fear of pain. >> Mhm. >> And the pain is me being out of alignment. And you sound like him. >> Yeah. >> You sound like that guy. The the voice in my head is so loud that I I can't not do it. I can't not do the thing because it's saying, "Don't be a coward. Go and do it. Go and chase your dreams." >> Yeah, and it's like, "Yo, if I if I feel like I have like one part of me feels like I have the potential." And I think that a lot of people see potential in themselves for certain things like, "Yo, I could do that." Or "I can do this." or whatever, but they get discouraged along the way. I I never get discouraged because I have that where it's like, "Just keep going." Like, "W- Are you going to stop?" Like you can't stop. You believe it. Like if you believe it then it's like it's those things like meet. And it's like but you believe it. Like if I believe it I have to keep going then because I believe it. I can't I like I have to be I have to see it through. You know, like it's really tough for me to like there are some things because there was a point in my life where I was very experimental too. Like I'll I'll try a bunch of different things and and just just to sort of see. Like creatively I think that is helpful. Like I I I don't really see a lot of merit in picking something and it's like well, I have to do that now. Like that's the thing that I like I think there is merit in realizing along that journey where your strengths are and it's okay to pivot. It's okay to pivot and and do, you know, things that now make more sense that are resonating even harder cuz there's no way you have it figured out on day one. Like no matter what you can plan all you want and you can do whatever but it's never going to go the way that you think. So I mean that was that's another thing too that you know, me and Greg have had multiple discussions about where creatively people can get into a a creative rut where they feel like I have to keep planning to perfect this. And I and I don't think that's helpful. Like for anything. Like I think that you can only learn by doing. Like trial by fire. Like just put yourself out there. Like you can plan a little bit. >> Give me an example. >> I'd starting a podcast, Stephen. If you're starting a podcast and you're like, I want to start a podcast. You have a loose idea. You have something that you want to do. Cool, whatever. Like dude, start. But you're going to spend 3 months being like so here's the strategy. I'm going to have conversations with all these people and I'm really going to dial it in and whatever. You think you're not going to pivot? You think you got it right right now? You haven't even started. Like you don't have it right. You need to start now though because you're only going to learn those things. >> begin working on the live show a year before you even went out there thinking of the song that you were going to walk out to? >> Um That That to me is like a different thing. So like what the shows were? No. Like that those moments are like I'm scoring some like a part of a movie of my life kind of. Like that's what that kind of feels like of like okay, that's the moment that I want to make happen. This is the thing that's motivating me right now like kind of how do we get there? Also the action of like okay, that's what we want. We want Radio City. It wasn't until after the first show that I looked at my agent I was like I want Radio City. And he's like all right, like I'll kind of work on it and we'll see if we can get it or whatever. This is after the first show. Who the [ __ ] am I by the way? That was crazy. I was on a high. I came off stage I was like that was sick. So I was like yo Radio City book the [ __ ] Yankee Stadium. I don't care. But um So yeah, it's like I want to do that. I'm not ready for it, but it's like book it over there I'll get to it and we'll figure it out. Um I'm focused on okay, I need to be better tomorrow or I need to be better at the next show or whatever. And like we're going to get there eventually, but I'm not like planning and just being like so I'll give you an example. So when we're starting the the tour, right? It's It's a decision of like should we should we go on tour? And then it's like yes, we should. Action the next day. So an action would be like we're talking to the agent. We're like okay, what's the process for this thing? And going along the way it's like all right, whatever. Like of course you then you have to get to planning what the show is going to be. I mean there's no way you're going to walk out there and be like well, I have no plan. Hello. Like there is that sort of planning. But that's not necessarily what I'm talking about. I'm talking about stalling the process so that you can like perfect something that you can't perfect. >> not booking the show until you'd written the show. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And even then, it's like, what do you think? It's not going to change, dude. I mean, we had a conversation yesterday where your [ __ ] show changed every 5 minutes or whatever the [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> You were like, "Yeah, I changed out 40% of every show." >> Bailed out in between each show. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> It's I mean, it's but it's true. It's like, the only way that you can really learn. Like, think about how long if you like were like, "Okay, we're going to do that, but we're going to uh you know, really plan, really hone in it and blah blah blah." Like, you're just going to have to jump. It's a It's a lot of of that. Um do you have a tattoo? >> Uh yeah, it says smile on the inside of my wrist. >> Okay. Uh I I get the same sort of feeling when I got tattoos. It's like, well, I want the tattoo, and now I'm sitting in the shop and I'm like, [ __ ] Like, [ __ ] this thing is permanent and whatever. And I I I had the same feeling every time I got a tattoo where I'm like, this, and then it's like, the guy's like, "Are you ready?" And a part of me just goes like, [ __ ] it. Like, maybe [clears throat] you'll hate it. Like, but whatever, [ __ ] it. It's like, that approach is like, what you need is you're never going to be like, super ready. You're never going to have it fully dialed in. Like, but you need to just do it and just suck at it cuz no matter what, it's going to suck. It's If you're lucky, it's going to suck. If you're lucky. If you're If you if If you can't look back on something you did years ago and you're like, that was great, then you probably suck now cuz there's no one getting it right on the first try. Like, you should suck because that means that you grew and you got better at something, but you have to start. Like, you're never going to plan your way out of not sucking. Like, you're going to look back embarrassed a little bit. You're going to look back and be like, that wasn't great. And also, things change. You're going to have to adapt anyway. Just start. Like, just start, dude. Like, just suck at it. Just suck at it. But you're You're it. You're doing it. Make it your identity. Just do it. Like just do it. If you want to be a rapper, dude, then be a rapper. Be it. You can be it. You know, like just do it then. No, you don't have to sell out a [ __ ] venue to be a rapper, bro. Rap. Just do it. Like then you're a rapper. Like make it your identity. When people think of your name, they're going to associate yourself with that. They're going to associate your name with like, "Yeah, that kid's a rapper." That's That's what you want. Then you're it. Being successful at it, that's a different problem. That's a different problem for a different day. You're going to have to be good at it. You're going to have to care about it and all that [ __ ] [ __ ] But like if you want to be something, dude, make the decision and do it. You can. Like what you're worried about and the thing that stalls you is like, are other people going to think that uh that I'm good at this or how am I going to look? Am I going to look cringey? Am I going to whatever? Like get to the point where you're okay with that. Like just just believe in who you are. Know who you are. And be like, "I don't care if people think I'm cringey." Like of course people People are always thinking about People in your comments are probably like, "This kid's cringey, bro. [ __ ] this kid." Like but whatever, bro. I don't care. I'm It's not why I'm doing it. Like I I this everything I'm saying feels so real to me. Like this is not like a fake thing that I have. So, I'm okay with people interpreting interpreting it in a different way and thinking that it's for show or or whatever. Like it doesn't matter, bro, because I don't want I don't know you and two, like I have to live my life. I'm going to walk away from this thing. Like even if you're looking at me right now and you're like, "This kid's kind of an idiot and I don't agree with anything he's saying." Bro, I don't care. I don't care because it's real to me and I have to live my life. It's my reality. So, like it's it's kind of it's kind of like that. There has to be a balance, though, to be fair. Cuz everything I'm saying like you can get yourself in trouble where it's like, "I believe everything that I say." And whatever. >> Gets close to delusion. >> I I only it only um works and you're not a [ __ ] brutal hang if you have checks and balances and you're very very willing to take on criticism and you're very willing to listen as well cuz you can't just always be the one talking. You can't cuz you you're not going to learn anything. Like if you're not giving someone the opportunity to talk or to teach you something or you think they can't teach you anything, you're wrong. You're wrong because everybody can teach you something. Just shut up and listen sometimes. But then like if you can master those two things, it's very empowering to know that like oh man, I'm willing to be wrong, but I also like I believe in myself and my decisions, but I mean that definitely could get me to a dead end, but I have to be okay with that. And I am I am okay with that because I'm already grateful for what I have. Like I'm already at the point where like this is good enough for me. I'm willing to hit the dead end. I was willing to hit the dead end [ __ ] 10 years ago. Like that's that's the the fact that I I always feel like I have nothing to lose. I have nothing to lose. Like day one I felt like I had nothing to lose. I still feel like that now. Like I could take a risk. Whatever. What's going to happen? cares or like this is going to upset someone because you're not going to do this and that's going to upset someone or someone's like yo, this is a going to be a bad decision for your career. But if I don't feel like it's right for me, but I don't care. Take it then. Take my career. I don't care. Like I have to stand on it like that. You know, like you you have to you have to do what's right for you. When I when I first got signed to William Morris, I had a meeting and it was I was young and I was on a big it was a big table and it was a lot of people there. >> I've done one of those. >> And it was like this lady's like I'm your book agent. I was like don't read. Who who's next? So like someone else like you know, um but then they were like talking about stuff and one of the things that I said in that meeting was um I was also like didn't really know much. So, I the the idea that I had in my head about agents was like they're going to try and like take over your career and make you do stuff that you don't want to do or whatever like for whatever reason. And I told them like you know, there's a chance that you present a thousand things and I say no to all of them. Like I'm I'm going to do the thing that I that I want to do. And I I wanted them to know that I wasn't intimidated by the moment. Even if I I I was intimidated by the moment, I was lying. Like I but I wanted them to know that like you can't push me around. I don't know how much I believe that. But I was like I I I didn't want them to think that it's like we're we're we got it from here, kid type of thing. I was like, "No, get the [ __ ] off me. Like I'm still going to do this thing. I will accept help, of course, and some some and some sort of guidance, but it has to resonate with this thing that has gotten to me like gotten me everywhere that I have gone. Like it has to resonate with that. Like I can't do something that doesn't hit there. I just refuse to do that. Whatever that means. If that means missing out on which I've missed out on a ton of stuff. It's gotten me in trouble. I've definitely said no to things that I probably should have done. But whatever. I it's fine. It's okay. I'm willing to lose. It's fine. But I That's that's the route I'm choosing to go. That I I'm okay with losing. I'm okay with missing out on stuff. I'll learn from it. And maybe it takes a few tries to even learn from it. It's not like one thing and then it's like, "Now I got it. I'm good." Like no, it's like it's a series of mistakes. But that's the point. You're suppo- I'm happy to make this mistakes. Who the [ __ ] is not making mistakes and is cool? Who's like, "You know, you got nothing going on. You got you got you're not making mistakes. You're not taking [ __ ] huge L's." Like what are we talking about then, dude? No risks? No nothing? What is your day like, dude? Like what is it? You're just going to write on post-its and sneeze? That's it? Give me something, George. You know, like take risks. It's exciting. It's exciting to fail, dude. Like, it makes you a person. It gives you something, at least. But, like I don't know. Just just [ __ ] I don't know, dude. I I get very passionate about this, dude. Forget about it. You You put a [ __ ] glass of red wine in front of me, we'd be here 10 hours. It'd be a wrap. >> [laughter] >> I get it, man. Uh What would you say to someone who struggles with their self-belief or self-assuredness? Every time that they try to tap into their gut instinct, they struggle. They can't really hear it. Or they're scared. What would you say? >> I think that's normal. I think it's normal to to tap in, listen to it, it doesn't work out, and you're scared. And you're scared because it hasn't worked out in the past. Part of it. Keep listening. Just keep listening. And keep doing if that's what's interesting to you. If you think it would fulfill you to be at a place eventually where your your sort of end-all be-all is your intuition. That's something that you want, just all you got to do is listen and keep doing it. And just keep making the mistakes. I didn't get it right. I still bro, I get this [ __ ] wrong all the time. I don't even know if what I'm saying right now is coherent. I'm just talking. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's probably not. Don't laugh. So, now I know it's not. Um but, I I like you you just just lay it all out on the table. It's okay to be vulnerable. Like, whatever. Be be cringe. Be whatever. But, you get somewhere with that. At least it's real. Like, at least if you're being vulnerable, people know that, and it's real. You're taking a swing by doing that. I can come on this show and just say a bunch of things that I think you want to hear. I don't even know what you want to hear, but like I could I I could just do that, but like I don't get anything for that. Like I'm trying right now. I'm trying right now. This is but this is all like very real to me, everything that I'm saying. It's like this is very real to me. If it resonates with people who watch your show, that is like an incredible feeling for me. And if it doesn't, it's like ah It's just one of those things, you know, I took a shot, you know, like but it's real to me. I don't need them to think that you know, I don't need it to resonate cuz it resonates with me and it works for me and I may not work for everyone, which is totally fine. >> How does it feel to be having a conversation that's way more serious than the ones that you usually do when you go on podcasts? To get to talk about this stuff. >> I I enjoy it. I mean I I this is why like you know, I I wanted to come on this show. I'll tell you by the way, before uh I met you, I was invited by Spotify to go out to LA and they were like oh come to this thing and I was like okay cool like they wanted me to be on some [ __ ] panel and I was like all right cool. And then and then I saw that you were on it. Like two weeks prior to that, my brother sent a link of your Jon Bellion interview >> Mhm. >> in my family's group chat. >> You've been friends with him for forever? >> For with Jon? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, very loose friends, but yeah. Um but uh he but they sent that link in there and like my whole family is like Jon Bellion fans and my brother was like you should go on this guy's show like this would be like a cool thing for you to be on. And then two weeks later I got the email that you're going to be on the panel. So immediately I'm like I'm going to [ __ ] talk to this dude. Like then that's this is when it starts, right? It starts where it's like okay, I'm going to be on the panel with this guy and I want to be on his show. What does it take to kind of get there? And I don't know. I don't know you. And I like at that point, like I don't know you. I've never talked to you, whatever. So, you could have I could have just been like, "Oh, that guy's kind of a [ __ ] [ __ ] Like, whatever. I don't want to be on the show anyway. I don't care." But like, we meet and we immediately like have this rapport. I'm like, "This is great." And And then the next day I saw you at the other [ __ ] thing. And then now I'm sitting here. That feeling is incredibly validating, and it's enough for me to believe in the the intuition and the energy and that feeling of like, "Just follow your gut and do those things. Say yes to [ __ ] Put yourself in an in a situation where you could get like lucky in in a way and get this opportunity." Because I can see that as Like, this Some people could look at this as like, "You got lucky." But I'm I'm open to that. Like, I'm putting myself in situations where I could potentially get lucky. I see luck as not a magical thing, but just opportunity that you took advantage of. That looks like luck. Because the chances of you being on that panel are I don't I don't even know the [ __ ] chances. But it was there, and I could either do nothing because there was other people on there. They're not sitting here today. Like, I'm sitting here today. And it was because I was like sort of intentional about that. I wanted that. I wasn't going to be like, "Hey, buddy. Can I be on your [ __ ] show?" But like, how do you get to this point that you like you want to connect with someone, you think that this would be a good fit, and then it ends up being so, and now I'm sitting here. Like, that is incredibly validating. And again, that's enough for me to be like, "This is how you get things done. Just just just be open to the idea, dude. Like, just be prepared for your opportunities." And then it looks like luck. But if I went there and we never spoke or I was too shy to speak to you or I felt like, "Oh, he doesn't want to like [ __ ] with me. Like he has [ __ ] Luke Combs and like these very famous people on his show. He's not going to interview me, bro. Me of all people. Like if I did that to [clears throat] myself and got in my own way, then I'm not sitting here and we're not having this conversation. Get out of your way, dude. Like just just believe The only thing that you need is a belief that it could happen. That was enough for me to be like, well, I'm going to talk to him. He's just a [ __ ] guy. You know, like I'm just you know, like but if you get in your own way like that, you're closing yourself off. You don't have the opportunity for people to be like, oh, you got lucky or like, you know, whatever the [ __ ] Like you're closing yourself off to opportunities if you're putting if you're getting in your own way. Like just get out. Like even getting out of your own way will result in a lot. Opportunities pop up. You'd be surprised of how they do that. Just say yes, dude. Just say yes to [ __ ] It's exciting. Once you once it happens to you, it's very exciting. And it doesn't happen all the time, but it will happen. Like I say yes to [ __ ] I mean you can say yeah I mean I said yes to [ __ ] for years and nothing ever happened with that. And then once things start happening, then it kind of feels like you met this person and then you met that person and whatever. And like, you know, the networking aspect of that. Bro, just be a good dude. I believe that or at least the people that I want to be around, if you're a good guy, they want to they like you. They want to root for you. And it's like I just want to I just want to be that. I want to meet people and they think I'm a good guy and it's like, well, I'm going to remember that. I like that kid. You know, I I like the thing that he believes or the things that he says or whatever the [ __ ] You know, and I respect the thing that he does. I I want to be around people that I respect, that I like, that I think are good people. I won't I won't surround myself with people that I think are like [ __ ] that are like weird and like do like bad [ __ ] Like I'm not covering for you, dude. Like you know, like I'm not like I want you to be a good person because that's what I'm on. That's what I'm that's what I'm about. Like I don't I don't want to be around people that I feel like are are negative or like trying to hurt people or like whatever. Like I'm not about that at all. Like I'm just trying to be a good dude and I want that mutual respect from people and that's it. Just simplify it. Probably get out of your way. I'm talking to myself by the way cuz I did that for years. Did it for years. Like getting in my own way, overthinking, nope, not good enough. The the the example that I just gave you, I've done that numerous times of being like, why would they talk to me, bro? Like why? And whatever. And like who knows what could have happened with that. I refuse to do that now. I refuse to do that. >> What do you do when that fear comes up? >> It's just like don't be a [ __ ] Like stop. Like what's the reason? Like what's the actual reason? Like what are you afraid of? Like If if it doesn't work out, you're in the same spot you are now. Like how is it actually scary? When you think about it in that way, like what is scary about that? You either open a door and there's an opportunity or there's nothing. Shut the door, you're good. That's it. That's all it is. Like you're opening doors. You open a door, there's an opportunity. Oh, wow, that's great. That's what I wanted. There's nothing there, you close the door. What the [ __ ] happened? Nothing. It's just it's neutral. It the fear is like it actually can put you at this like insane disadvantage in your life if you get in your own way. Because not like the opportunities, you're closing yourself off to them. You need opportunities. You need help from people and you need to be like collaborative and but you also need to be confident and assertive in certain ways and kind of like put your foot in the door. You know? And like sometimes people will slowly shut a door. I'm on doors today like crazy by the way. But someone will slowly shut a door and you got to stick your foot in and like let it hit your foot and just kind of like you got to sometimes you got to do that. You can't just like stand there and let someone slowly shut the door in your face. Like be assertive. Like know who you are. That is the most important thing. Know who you are, be confident in who you are, and really believe really believe yourself, but be humble about it. Like believe start a fire in yourself and be like I'm very capable, but also like you have to be a humble person. You have to be likable. And you're not the most important person in the world. Like be a good guy, too. But be assertive. Put yourself out there. It's actually a lot of fun. And when you get used to failing a lot, it just it's That is funny. That even helps me even more than probably [ __ ] working out, honestly. Things that work out now, like that probably plays against me. Like now the more success, the more unrelatable you become. Like I'd rather fail at this point. It gives me something to talk about. You know? So either way, if it's a positive. You fail, you got a funny story. If it works out, you got the thing you wanted. You're the man, dude. >> You honestly, you're one of a kind. Really one of a kind. I'm very, very glad that you decided to stalk me. >> you say that like is crazy. >> I'm glad that you decided to stalk me to LA. I really am. >> First of all I was invited for I don't even know if that's true, but >> [laughter] >> That it's um it's very gravitational being around you. >> Yeah. >> Like very electric being around you. And I can see why you've got this rabid support. It's like unbelievable energy. It's a very, very uh compelling. So I'm just fired up now that we're friends and that I get to watch you go and do the [ __ ] stuff. You've got cool things coming up over the next couple of years and that's It's the same like [ __ ] Bellion is doing uh Red Rocks, right? Later this year. And and there's a difference between seeing someone's stuff online, which I hadn't I hadn't seen your stuff. Had you seen my stuff before Belion? >> Yeah dude, you're [ __ ] everywhere. What are you talking about? >> that. Well, don't forget the [ __ ] >> my top three podcasts? >> But don't forget the [ __ ] headlights, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> You know, the Venn diagram and you don't watch that much YouTube and you don't spend that much time on podcast. Hey. >> Well, I don't I spend time, but I don't like go back to the same thing is what I mean. >> Right. Okay. Okay. >> I'm scrolling. >> Uh the fact that I got to know John and then I get to see him do a thing and I get to like root for my boy. Yeah. One of the greatest gifts is to become friends with someone that you're a fan of or to become a fan of someone that you're friends with and then you get it's 10 times better to go and watch someone or to see one of your friends. So Judge, big nose sneezes a lot, is writing a book at the moment and that thing I'm watching this saga unfold one sentence per day, right? Like slowly being crafted and I'm hearing him talk about it and I'm giving him a like oh I don't really like that and then that thing's going to come out and when I read it, it's going to be the best book that I've ever read because I'm going to love the person that did it and when Belion gets to do Red Rocks, I'm going to be like that's kind of my [ __ ] boy. >> Yeah. >> Like that's my boy doing that and that's [ __ ] like it shows amazing and rah rah rah and then the same thing for you. I'm really really [ __ ] glad that you reached out and I think that you're awesome and it's it's sick to have you here. Really. >> Thank you dude. I really do appreciate like this conversation. Like I don't get to do it often like on camera or whatever. Um but I do ramble quite often with my friends so >> Well, you rambled >> [laughter] >> when you when you get [ __ ] yapping, it's it goes in a good direction and uh that's it, man. We need to do this again. >> Yeah. >> That's it. Where should people go to check out everything you do? >> Uh you can go follow me at Joe Santagato. Good luck spelling it. Um >> Josh Pepino. >> Pepino, where'd P come from now? >> know. >> It is what it is. >> It's getting it worse. >> Uh and go and the basement yard uh is the podcast. So go check that out everywhere. >> Sick. All right. See you next time, everyone. Dude. >> So [ __ ] man. >> That's so sick. >> Congratulations, you made it to the end of a full podcast episode. You are not so TikTok brained that you've completely dissolved into nothingness. Why not watch another one? Right here. Go on. Press it.