How to Finally Break Habitual Sin | Devil in the Castle Chapter 3 (Part 3)

The greatest trick [music] the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. >> I didn't know this was a fight. That's why you're losing. [music] Today we are beginning either to domesticate the devil or else to deny him. [music] He is most powerful when he is denied. >> Welcome to the [music] devil's in the details. The devil may be in the details but God is on the throne. >> So before we jump in, I want to just say something that's important. uh about why we named the podcast what we named it. It's not because we think the devil is big and important. Um it's because it's an interesting phrase and an interesting title to get people engaged in the content which is why we always begin with but God is still on the throne. But what we believe is not we're is not this worldview that the devil is huge and in control and we're sort of this little rag tag band of you know beat up believers who just who are learning to fight but our swords are are cracked and our you know our armor is and boy we just it's all such a tough sludge. The victory's already been won. Mhm. >> It's already been won. That's what's great about this. >> You know what's funny is you and I were talking about why you named spiritual direction.com, why you named it that and how it has a double meaning. >> Yeah. >> I did the same thing when we were talking about naming this podcast because while it is interesting and grabs people's attention, there is a a very important truth in the devil being in the details. And the meaning is essentially this. And we we did talk about this either the first or second episode, but I don't know if I said it this clear. um the battle with the enemy, 95% of it is in the day-to-day, in your thoughts, in your struggles. >> Yeah. >> In those little details. Yeah. >> That it's not this it's not often this grandiose, >> right? >> You know, swords clanging together or >> some apparition, demonic apparition showing up in your bedroom at 3 in the morning. Yeah. You know, it's it is truly the dayto-day, the little details. That's where the enemy is trying to get you. And that's a primary purpose of this show is to help people recognize that >> and but the focus, right? So, totally true. And why? So that we can know union with God >> and well expose the enemy, >> right? >> So that you can Yeah. >> Yeah. So you can fight and get past whatever he's trying to do. But understanding that God is even in control of the enemy in the sense that uh he is on a short leash as we hear often from exorcists. I was just talking with an exorcist last night or the night before last uh who is a wonderful priest and uh very holy and he's even been persecuted in the church for his being forthright and and just talking about this very issue of of you know the victories already been won. The issue is is that believers because they don't understand the battle or why it works or how it work how why or how it works are manipulated by instead of living in that victory that's already been won. Instead of walking in the freedom that's already been paid for, they're circling the drain. And so what we're trying to do is get stop the circling the drain and bring sanity to this whole conversation because there's a lot of weird dumb you know I I I think the view that I'm speaking about now that I'm railing against if you will is just this big devil little god versus big god little devil problem. >> Um the devil is is a grain of sand on the sea compared to all of the matter in the universe which is God. And that's still dramatically disproportionate to their power, >> right? >> You know, so uh just in case folks are wondering, do we focus on the devil too much? No. It's a matter of how [clears throat] do we live in the victory and the freedom of Jesus? How do we advance the kingdom of God? How do we get healed? And and in particular, our focus is the spiritual warfare side of that. >> Right. So before we jump into chapter 3, part three, this has been a longer one. Um, I wanted to quickly say thank you to everyone who has been uh commenting, [clears throat] >> everyone who has been leaving reviews. It's super helpful for us to spread the show and we are getting awesome uh feedback, awesome comments. People are loving the show. Uh, folks who have been away from the church, I think a seminarian commented, you know, how much it's helped them, these various things. Saying all that to say, comments and reviews help us a ton. and also sharing this with other people. So, if you're benefiting from anything that you're hearing, please share this with someone you think would benefit as well. >> Yeah. And if you're on YouTube, what that means is uh subscribing. A lot of people don't subscribe. They just find it. But subscribe. Then you get a notification. Make sure you tell it to notify you. >> Like the videos. Yeah. Cuz that tells the YouTube algorithm. It says this is popular content. Share it to other Catholics. Otherwise, it won't share it. you don't do those things and you just watch it, it's great. >> Um, it doesn't help us to spread the the, you know, to get past the the algorithm issue. >> Um, so let's use it for the sake of advancing the kingdom. And that's how you can you can help, you know, be a part of what we're doing. And the other thing you have questions about what we're talking about and you want us to clarify, we love doing that. Yeah. So just put it in the comments on YouTube >> or Spotify >> or Spotify. Yeah, wherever you're hearing it. >> Right. So >> spiritual directionction.com. Also subscribe out there. All right. So today we're back on the what I call the Dionian framework which is from the writings of St. Dionius which is you know it's debated as to did he actually write them? It doesn't matter to me. It's a great it's it's a it's a view of the progress of the soul adopted by multiple doctors of the church and understanding any of them that dealt with the interior life saw this pattern of normal phases. So what I've done in this book is laid those out and then tried to break it out to a little bit more specificity. But just to warn you, it would be a misuse of this book to think what we're about to share is exactly accurate. It's not. It's generally true and will vary with people, you know, depending on what they struggle with. So phase one is the purgative way, phase two is the illuminative way and phase three is the unitive way. All everyone in the unitive way are canonizable folks, right? Whether they every are or not doesn't matter. They're saints. Most Catholics are in the purgative way. I you know by survey not by my opinion but by survey of what Catholics say 99 plus.9% are going to be in this phase we're talking about today which is the purgative way >> and before we get into and maybe we should save this for the unitive unitive way but I do want to ask right off the bat we we have both have come in contact with quite a few people who believe that they're in the unitive way and the outcome of every one of those conversations is you're not. Yeah. >> So, is it safe to say that someone being in the unit of way is so rare that it only occurs in very >> Do you get what I'm I don't want to I don't want to put I don't want to put it in a box and and miscatategorize it or do you want to save that until we get to >> No, I think it's a good question. I I think there are I think anyone who claims to be in it by definition isn't. >> Sure. because it's just not a humble thing to say, >> right? >> You're going to find people who are out of the purgative way. When you start asking them specific questions about, you know, have you ever experienced contempt of graces, you know, whatever, you're going to generally they're going to shy away from answering your questions, >> right? Um, so those so those who put out a moniker, this is why I always say if someone says I'm a contemplative uh as a banner like you know you know Jose for you know underneath contemplative they're not you [laughter] know because it's just not humble because what you're claiming is that you're in this really profound level of of of spiritual maturity and it just you know humble people don't do that or what they're saying just to be more kind is they're saying well I'm a person of prayer fine but a contemplative and a person of prayer are two different things a contemplative is someone who's experiencing advanced stages of infused prayer as as a norm so yeah if they claim they're in the unitive way I you know I would always be kind I mean I you know who knows but it's It's not it's not often. I know some people who I think are in the unitive way. I know a larger group who I think is in the illuminative way and then a much larger group in the purgative and in our community in apostly VA because of the way we live there are a good number of people I think are in the at least in the illuminate way or beyond. And as you get deeper into the into the ways anyway, it becomes harder to assess because things are not as black and white as they are in the purgative way. >> So like what we're going to talk about today as an example, um are you in mortal sin or not? Now if you know church teaching and you read the catechism or you read, you know, do Dr. Kevin Vos God rest his soul's book on the seven deadly sins as an example. If you if you've read that those two documents and you look at your life and you go well yeah I haven't gone to confession on for any of those things mortally for three years two years there you can objectively know that >> now which degree of contemplation that Teresa describes are you in are you in the uh the prayer of quiet are you you know uh in the prayer of simplicity there all of the contemplative grades of prayer which are beyond the purgative way are are just intensifications in the experience of the believer and they don't necessarily indicate where you are right not like so sin is an easier measure that's why the purgative way is way easier to measure and whether or not you practice certain spiritual disciplines if you don't practice daily mental prayer you're not in the illuminative way period just nobody's >> if you're not >> it's certainly not in the unitive way >> right Oh, there's no chance, >> you know. Uh, so purgative is way easier. It's more concrete, but as you get into the aluminum and unitive, it's less concrete. And the deepest water in terms of like, well, how do you determine these things is John of the Cross. Mhm. >> So I'll be teaching a course at the Aval Institute which is I think full now um called deeper into the castle which is all about the late purgative illuminative and beyond and mostly the teaching of John Cross and Theresa Vula which we'll be covering some today as well. >> And just to let people know whenever dad teaches a class it gets filled very quickly. So if that's something that you're interested in then you need to be on that email list. >> Yeah. >> So you're aware when it comes out. >> Yeah. spiritualdirection.com. I think we put out all of our courses. You can find out through there, but the Avalent Institute itself, avalent-institute.com or.org, doesn't matter, uh, is where you can find all the classes. I think the next one I'll probably teach after this is foundations of prayer, which is the one that goes up to the edge. These two foundations of prayer and union with God get to the early illuminative late purgative and then this class is late purgative and then illuminative and beyond. So that they overlap in that way and then I teach another class called spiritual warfare and discernment of spirits. So those will all be coming up. I I do it every year. They go round and round. So >> cool. Okay. So phase one the purgative way. This is covering mansions 1 through three >> of Terresa Vavala's mansions, right? >> And there looks like there's three stages in this stage. I don't know >> this phase. So call So if that's why it's good. I'm glad you did that. It's why I used phase one, phase two, >> and then stages within those. Now, somebody might say, well, where did these come from? And they come from uh a book that you're reading now. I think they came out of uh soul the apostlate. >> Yeah. Be because what he did and he's not a saint or a doctor of the church, but he's a very holy book. By the way, this is going to be in I I started reading and I told my guys I said this is going to be in my top five hands down. >> Oh, I mean it's Yeah. I mean basically everyone in the community has to read that. I think it's we they read it in the introduction to spiritual direction course for the for a reason. But in there he's the one who breaks these out and then I expanded on these categories. So the original framework just included um a simpler view. What I'm trying to do is be more helpful by over overlaying the spiritual wisdom provided by Dom Chutard and then some of my own experience reading John of the Cross and Teresa and going okay yeah these these things generally belong in this >> phase one you know stage one. So phase one stage one is mediocre piety. So go ahead and read what happens with mortal sin. >> Mortal sin weak resistance rarely avoids near occasions of sin but seriously regrets having sinned. makes inadequate confessions. >> So what that means is you're in phase one of the purgative way. It means you're in the early purgative stage. You've had some kind of conversion experience, right? You care. That's why it says you regret committing mortal sin. I mean, I remember when I was here and and I [laughter] remember I remember I I think it was anger because I I God has healed me of this. God be praised over a lump. Wrath was a big issue for me, right? And I just irony of irony is I remember falling again like I yelled at somebody or did something. I was so mad at myself I exercised wrath in beating up a trailer my dad I bought from my dad and it and it had a broken, you know, something or other. And I was on it with a sledgehammer and just got so angry at my own sin. I'm beating it up and then I talked to my spiritual director. was like mocking me which is great you know just like hey dude relax you know >> and but that's where I was then I I hated my irritable nature and I hated the effect on other people and I was just ashame I was so mad at myself which is I know it's ironic but that's what it's like being in that place and I don't know if you have a rel you have a related uh uh connection to that but being in early purgative is when you you're baptized, you're Catholic, but then you're like going, I I don't want to live this way anymore. I want to live for the Lord. And then it just starts to hurt because you you you realize how broken you are. >> Yeah. I mean, I I guess the easiest one is, and I've been very public about this, if anyone's tuning in for the first time, I've given my testimony quite a few places. the the uh Catholic gentleman is the one that tends to get the most plays, but I've been very open with struggles in the past with like pornography and impurity and things of that nature. And uh I I have a distinct memory of falling and uh and I was already angry with myself every time that I fell because at that time I didn't I didn't have the tools that I have now and the tools that I used to help a lot of guys in the past where I I didn't realize that I've trained my body to betray me. I've trained it to behave in this way, you know, and so [clears throat] I was purely responding to whatever influence was. My flesh ruled me is the easiest way to explain it. >> Influences that you allowed. >> Yeah. >> Regularly. So then you're habitually saying. >> Yeah. >> And so at one point I fell and I was like, I feel so empty. >> Yeah. And it was fas and it was a moment where I was enraged with myself but also this stark contrast of total emptiness. >> And I remember taking it to confession and telling the priest like I this is the first time that I feel completely empty. >> There was no pleasure. There was no nothing. It is pure emptiness. It just like this void. >> That's a gift by the way. >> Oh 100%. And I'm pretty sure that's what he ended up. Was that precon conversion or during conversion? >> That was in the midst of >> coming back and struggling with every It was before I went to the clinic and all that kind of stuff. >> Um, >> but it's a perfect example of God. >> But you there was he was moving in you. You're responding >> and the reason you had that gift is because you you were fighting, >> right? >> Or you're beginning to fight in some way. >> Right. Right. >> And and struggling. And we'll get we'll get to the uh well, it's right here. Makes inadequate confessions. I was working hard, but this is not too long after if memory serves is when I learned about firm purpose of amendment and things like that and which kicked everything up a notch >> cuz I realized I'm abusing the sacrament if I'm not like what am I doing? I'm going I'm repeating the thing. It's not working. What do I need to do to stop this now? And and it became >> this like oh I could I can treat this tactically. Yeah. Coming from law enforcement background. Okay. Well, that didn't work. The enemy got in. That wall needs to be reinforced. How do I reinforce that wall? Where's the other weak point? >> So, saying all that to say like that's what inadequate confession. If you're not taking those steps and not having a firm purpose of amendment and you're just going and confessing whatever it is, that's what you mean by inadequate confession. >> Yeah. I've watched someone close to us who who desired I know they did cuz they wept about it. They desired to be free, >> but not enough. Enough to go to confession regularly. Not enough to make a plan and alter the entire life circumstance because that's what affirm purpose amendment means. It's when I step out of confession, what am I going to do now given the grace that God's given me? Because he he didn't just forgive you. He also gave you he infused you with his life in that moment because of that sacrament it to fight. So, how are you going to fight? And that means how you deal with your phone, how you deal with, you know, how you deal with accountability, how you what kind of friends you have, what do you do with, what do you do like if there's a repeated pattern like I I uh uh gave spiritual direction at a retreat one time for uh college students, you know, and there was one college student who was devout Catholic, but you know, every time was really upset at their their sexual behavior. or whatever. And this is years and years ago. There's no way anybody could know what this is. And by the way, you could replay this a million times over. Very upset. And then I said, "Well, what what is the preceding reality of each of the times you fall? It's test time." >> Mhm. >> What does that mean? Oh, that means stress. Okay. Why do tests cause you stress? Well, because I'm afraid of failure. Okay. Why are you afraid of failure? >> Mhm. >> Well, because my parents will kill me. Well, okay. So, there's this deep there's a problem in the way the person is dealing with the normal stress of a test that leads to sin >> and getting into that that deeper well of, you know, I'm only accepted if >> I do well on my test or my school. >> Well, that's problematic, >> right? you know, >> and then the sin becomes the inebriation to avoid the feelings. >> Dead on target. >> Yeah. It's the other thing that this reminded me of is the phrase that I just I memorized because it was so impactful for me to overcome uh the any sin and it's Hebrews 12:4 in your battle against sin. You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood. >> Right. >> I was like, "Oo, he's saying very clearly if you are not shedding blood, >> right, >> you are not trying hard enough." >> Yeah. you know [clears throat] well and I you know in that sense I've also seen another case where you know a person would was propos oh I've tried that >> yeah it's like >> wait you've tried it meaning you you did a little bit >> and then you stopped >> do like the whole mentality is wrong it's like you don't try a particular approach you know do you try accountability or do you live a life of accountability? >> It's one of the reason >> that never stops. >> It's one of the reasons why I stopped mentoring guys through this because we have such a culture of effeminacy. The the disordered attachment to pleasure and the avoidance of doing difficult tasks that I had to have those conversations with guys and I I'd get and this is the perk of being a man is that we are programmed and it is necessary to be intense with one another. So you don't want this, right? Let's just be honest. You don't want to be free, >> right? >> If you did, >> when when a suggestion is offered to you by a group of really good men who are struggling and who have gone through it and are at different stages and they say, "You should try this. You should try this. You should try this." And your response is, "Well, that doesn't really work for me. I don't actually like going on walks, blah blah blah." It's like, >> you have no interest in being free, >> right? >> So, go away. I don't You're wasting everyone's time here. Praying for you. Hope you get over it. >> But this is not You're not serious. >> Yeah. It's excuses, excuses. And and another realm where that's big is food. >> Yeah. >> You know, because I just wrote the book God of Endurance with Chase Krauss, who's a fitness guy, uh about how to get fit. And you have to, you know, it's not the days when you feel good. That are the days, you know, that determine whether or not you're going to succeed in breaking the habit of of of neglecting your temple of the Holy Spirit, which is your body. It's the days when you don't feel good. What do you choose to do when your willpower is weak, but what do you choose to do anyway? What do you choose to do with your snooze button in the morning when you don't feel like getting up and there's no good reason you shouldn't? What do you choose to do? >> You you get up, you know, you don't eat that extra thing. You you do structure your life in a way where you're eating the right thing. You don't ever you never say so for someone who's really going to break out of the purgative way. This is really vital. You'll never hear from them. This is a person who will succeed. Oh, but I can't. Or, oh, I've tried that. Or, oh, there's this reason or that reason. Here's what you'll always hear. >> Yes, you're right. I'm working on that. What insights do you have? >> Yes, you're right. I shouldn't have done that. >> Let's, you know, help me unpack that. Help me figure this out. Yeah. You know, it's a docility, >> right? >> And it's it's it's you're wired when you're ready in essence. It's like you're wired to victory, not to excuses, not to victimhood. >> Or even yes, I I hear that suggestion. I've tried it. Am I missing something? You know, is there another way that I could like this didn't seem to work out. I gave it my best shot. Can you Is there maybe there's something else? This just isn't connecting with my brain. That as you said, the core of it, humility. >> So, and I just want to say uh you know, for folks who are listening who are going, "Yeah, this is me, but I do want to be free." free course on apostova.org which is our community and that's aposte.org. There's a free course on overcoming habitual sin and I would say the first thing you need to learn is uh discernment of spirits. >> Yeah. >> Because discernment of spirits wakes you up to the eb and flow of your own strengths and weaknesses and to the eb and flow of the work of the enemy and teaches you how to fight. And I wrote a book on it called spiritual warfare and discernment of spirits. There's also a film series. It's free. >> And the newest book is Discernment Spirits for Beginners, which is targeted more towards young >> discernment spirits for beginners towards young adults. Yeah. So, a lot of resources. We have spiritualirection.com/warfare. You can get the video series that's for parish personal use, small groups. So, we got we've if you want to get free, >> this is a getting free factory. Maybe that should be the new banner for the new website. Getting free factory, right? But it's just bringing to bear all the great stuff in the church. All right. I know we're going to >> So, we hammered mortal sin, which I think is good because that that gives the framework from where people are starting at what's necessary to overcome in order to get to these next phases, >> right? >> Were you going to say something else? >> Um, just the last thing on the mortal sin and we can move on under the mediocre piety. >> If you struggle with habitual mortal sin, there is no more important thing in your life than getting past that. If you're a dad, that means the enemy has a door to your heart and to your family and to your kids. Until you shut that door in you, they they're going to have free reign in your home. So, if you're not if you're single, whatever, I you know, just there's nothing mortal sin is a serious issue and you're going to go to hell if you die and it and you haven't gone to confession. That that is formal church teaching. I'm not exaggerating. I'm not being bombastic. It it's why because you're fundamentally when you commit mortal sin and I think even father Mike Schmidt used a pretty crass I and forgive me if I attribute it to him and he didn't actually do it but I think it's in my immortal how to overcome mortal sin but it's like giving the middle finger to God >> and saying I don't care what your plan is >> right >> I'm on I'm I'm on the red guy's plan >> and and if you die in that state you have died you're fundamentally saying I don't want your plan. >> Yeah. [snorts] There I'll I'll give one last image and we can go to the venial sin portion of this. But uh if as you said if you're struggling I think that image is helpful whoever whoever that is correctly attributed to. I've always thought about and it's horrific and hopefully if you are in this place you'll understand why it's horrific. But spitting on Jesus as he's nailed to the cross >> that's that's painful >> right? So if you're looking, we don't say that to it's it's set as a motivation for people to to use to meditate on. And that's what you're doing when you're committing mortal sin. >> And if that causes a reaction in you, good. >> Hold on to that reaction. Figure out how to over use it as motivation to overcome whatever you're you're dealing with. >> Yeah. So the sec so we're on phase one progative way. We're on mediocre piety. So the the under mediocre piety is mortal sin. We just covered that. The next one is venial sin. And how how does that play out? >> Considered insignificant and even at times embraced or desired. Hence the lukewarm state of the will. Does nothing whatever to prevent venial sin or to pay attention enough to avoid it or to uncover and uproot it when it is less conspicuous. >> Yeah. So why is that? Well, because you're mortal you're in habitual mortal sin. And so, you know, it's here's an example. Go. So, for me, from going from rage aholic, nickname nuke working in a Christian organization, which I'm ashamed of, to being a much more sensitive and kind person. So, how is what is my wife's experience of that continuum? And what is my self-perception of that continuum? Well, when I'm raging, I'm just trying to stop yelling. When I'm trying to stop yelling, little little in quotes, acts of irritation, [snorts] sharpness are not even on my radar >> because I have this big y ugly yelling, right? And this thanks be to God, this is a long time ago. So that's why so the venial sin of of irritability to the point of hurting another person or making them uncomfortable, you know, of not expressing joy, love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, self-control. Those are not there. It's because my mortal sin is so big, it overshadows. So that's why it's considered insignificant. I'm like, look, I can't even I'm barely able to deal with this this major issue. How am I supposed to deal with those? The all, you know, maybe someday I'll get to those if I can get over this big one. And of course that has happened. I still live in my rule of life. Gentle every day. I test I check myself. So >> So does that make sense? >> Makes sense to me. Yeah. It's it's essentially you're you are not aware and not being intentional enough to root out the things that are precursors to mortal sin. >> Yes. Right. Yeah. And and let's use sex is easy to use, food is easy to use, you know, anger is easy to use because they have this ease very obvious continuum. But like uh mortal sin of eating, if you're morbidly obese, which means you're you're eating at a level that threatens your health in a significant way, then you choose, you know, you go and you binge or you you you know, you drink a whole bottle of gin or you you or you eat two full pizzas or whatever. I I would call that a realm of mortal sin. Oh, a venial sin would be eating snacks when you're already over your calorie limit for the day. >> No. And in this context, knowing specifically that you struggle with gluttony, >> right? But but deciding to do it anyway. That's the difference, you know? >> Yeah. So, for like pornography, it would be uh scrolling through social media when you know that there's a potential for temptation to pop up. That was another big one with guys, >> right? >> And that, you know, are you going to see something? Mhm. >> Do you see something? What are you respon, you know, are you reacting? How about you just don't scroll? How about that? You know what I mean? >> Right. So then u So that's mortal sin and venial sin and mediocre piety at the very earliest stages. Suffering avoids it and experienced complete disruption of peace in time of suffering. So >> that's a huge one. That's a huge I just had a conversation with someone recently and it was really interesting. it revealed a lot of this person's uh inner struggles where they said essentially I I don't remember what the question exactly was but the sentiment what they said to me was um well Jesus could have just they're or sorry they were explaining this bad experience that they had and they were saying well I felt abandoned by God because God could have just come in at any time and solved it and I said but what good would that have done and they said well I wouldn't have suffered I said, "Okay, but what good would that have done?" Well, I wouldn't be in pain. Okay, but what good would that have done? Jesus was really clear. I told the person, Jesus was really clear. I'm not saying that it sucks that you suffered. That's the truth. You know, >> it's but it's the nature of a sinful world. God is not willing anyone to sin against you. But he's allowing it. Why is he allowing it? >> I don't know. in your case, you know, I can make some guesses, but you have to know that he's allowing it. So God, Jesus was really clear. Those who do not pick up their cross and carry it are not worthy of being my disciple. What is he saying? If you don't suffer, you can't walk with me. >> Right. >> And I and I told this person, "What's easy about carrying the cross?" And they said, "Well, it was God." He and I said I said, "Jesus fell three times, right? >> Three times. He had help once. He fell three times." And I said, "And consider this. >> Jesus being God man, >> yeah, >> experienced suffering that we couldn't even fathom." >> Yeah. For him, >> not only was it the humanity of the suffering, >> Yeah. >> but the deity, him, you know, being God, >> his innocence as well, >> right? like you I said that you're you have a really profound misunderstanding of >> of what he went through >> and that if you are avoiding suffering you are avoiding his invitation to some sort of virtue >> right >> you know you can't this this yeah anyway I don't want to keep >> well there's no spiritual prior so just think in nature there's you know we have we have a pseudo or orchard out here a semi orchard that we don't give enough time to we have pear trees it's getting better apple trees his pimmons, all that. >> Yeah. Bigs, >> the the the production of the fruit of the tree, depending on how well we spend time pruning, which means cutting branches off, >> you know, now think about that in in a human sense spiritually and because Jesus did apply that to humanity. So, he's the vine where the branches we if we if we if we're not pruned, the fruit we produce is going to be left. There is no progress in life. weightlifting, uh, hard work in terms of academics, you know, being whole, just being holy, whatever. There's none of that is it it it's called a ceases for a for purpose, which means exercise, but it's a spiritual term. We the the definition we use is purposeful self-denial for the sake of self-giving. That is choosing suffering to love. >> Mhm. >> That's what it is. That's what he says is choosing suffering to love. So, so that so when somebody's at this stage, they're very immature and they avoid suffering, which is probably why they're in mortal sin >> because it's easier to inebriate with sexual activity, >> gluttonous activity, relational activities, >> you know, hobbies, music, um, work, excess work, you know, anything like I've and you know, I think I've probably done every one of those at some phase in my life. So, I'm not calling out anybody in in specific, but it's just it's avoiding. And the funny thing is you can't avoid suffering, right? >> Because God has designed us in a way that we need it for us to grow spiritually. And as you try to inebriate, things just become >> less and less meaningful. You know, all the it's kind of what happened to you that you described earlier. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I what I'm thinking about is the fact that I narrated this book and at the time I didn't key on key in on how important that aspect of of gauging where you're at is. But that alone I mean the mortal sin is the biggest one, right? But the suffering one would probably be in my opinion is a huge indicator huge >> of where you're at. >> Totally. >> Which I've never really quite recognized. >> Well, so if you want to make a dramatic contrast, we'll jump to the illuminative unit way. I mean we'll read this later but in the unitive way it desires and pursues suffering specifically and purposefully right and why for the sake of love as an example money. How much money do you need? How much stuff do you need? >> Well, somebody else needs some of that some stuff that they and they don't have it. What's real giving? What's mature spiritual giving? Like financially what's mature giving? It's giving at a level where you give money that you would like to use for something you want, but you can no longer get because somebody else has a more basic need and you're you're what you're doing is you're foregoing what you want and what you could get by giving that money to somebody else. That's a deeper level of self-giving >> in a financial. >> This is not me patting myself on the back at all because it it actually reveals uh the point of what you're saying. I was talking to uh someone recently about donating some money to something and I said well what about this much and they said well what about this much and I went oh I [laughter] was like hold on are you sure about that and we ended up going that route but it it reveal as we're talking about this I'm thinking oh yeah it's supposed to make you uncomfortable right >> you know what I mean that's the point you are you really giving >> I mean there's there's levels like we give clothes way and things like that and that's not uncomfortable. That's good. That's virtuous. But in this case, that was one of those circumstances where I was like, "Oh, that's that's uncomfy." >> Yeah. >> But okay, you know, I'll give you and and this is, you know, at the [snorts] So, what I'm about to do is going to preclude rewards according to scripture. But I think it's important to share personal details even when both when it's positive and negative. So, we get down to the real stuff. But I've had physical illness my whole life, life-threatening illness my whole life. There was a phase in my life when I got very angry and incredibly frustrated to tears. I mean, it probably happened 50 times. Like, why, you know, why is this happening? Now, when I, you know, I'm not saying every day. Today, I'm going to be honest, this morning I do not feel good. my heart monitor thing is saying, "Hey, you better be careful and rest. I'm tired, you know, whatever." So, uh, but I haven't till right now thought about this, but but I have in the past where So, in the past, I've had these physical issues, gotten frustrated, tears because I wanted to do XYZ, including when I was a little playing, just even just going out to play. Mhm. >> Um, so now today to the point where, you know, I had heart surgery not long ago and I was incredibly peaceful going in and praising the Lord for the and and recently had and I've noticed this pattern of when I suffer a lot, the ministry is blessed by it, you know, especially when it's really bad. When I end up in the hospital, it's like I'm like, "Okay, great. Something good's going to going to come out of this." Yeah. >> So you just your view of it changes over time. You you stop the first phase of maturity is stop avoiding it or stop inebriating. Maybe that's the best way to say it. So all right that's enough on suffering. >> So prayer from time to time prays well but still in an ad hoc fashion. Spiritual ferveny is inconsistent and fleeting. Prayer is far from habitual but is valued even if minimally so. prayer is usually either inter intermittently attentive vocal prayer or a petition-based prayer focused on temporal needs and desires. >> Yeah. So this kind of prayer is usually please make this hurt stop. Please make the mess I made of my life go away. Please make you know it's prayer that's like a baby crot. It's baby's prayer. My diaper's full. I don't like this. It stings fix it. You know ah I'm hungry. Feed me. you know, >> which is focusing on the immediate internal perceived needs of the person who's making the prayer rather than what is God doing, >> right? >> You know, so it's it's it is an internal a a internal looking prayer. >> It's a narcissistic thing, >> right? >> So, anything else on prayer? >> Um, well, so yeah, the beginnings of prayer, Terresa Vabala said, to enter into this the interior castle, you've got to begin to take prayer seriously. And so we we'd say daily mental prayer is the way in along with a reflection. So, but at this phase, it's not of a real high priority because you're kind of like right at the door of the castle, if you will. >> The day you go, "Yeah, I need to pray. I need to do this every day." >> That's when you really start moving in. >> Examine, not practice. >> Not practice. [laughter] >> Very simple. >> And that for those who are not aware, daily examination of conscience or um did you have another phrase for it that you called? I don't think so, actually. >> Daily exam. >> Well, redemptive exam. >> Redemptive exam. Yeah. It's uh I love Father John Barunic's example of this. It's at I do it at the end of the day. I think you have to do it at the end of the day. >> Yeah. >> Uh you go in a helicopter, I think he said 40,000 feet, fly back to the beginning of your day, >> look over it, and the redemptive examine is asking both where did I fail? Where can I do better? And where did God show up? >> Yeah. >> And praising God for those things and revealing to you where you failed. >> Um and honestly, it could take a minute once you once you once it becomes a habit. Yeah. It doesn't take you long because you are so aware of your shortcomings that you're usually keying into did I do this thing >> and all right Lord is there anything else that I need to be aware of >> and if you haven't started this if you want if you want help with this I know that we've got courses in Apostle VA but you can go to apostlyva.orgexam or slexam I think >> or examine I can't remember either one of those two >> yeah I believe on Apostle VA it's examine and if you go spiritual direction.com/exam you will get the same examination conscience >> sacraments attends mass regularly >> you know we kind of blew by that too quickly just one real last thing because we'll go deeper into it later without the examine you're asleep >> mental prayer wakes you up and the examine wakes you up the examine wake you up to patterns and so until you start you know this is another another determinant of entry into the interior castle St. Terresa Abos speaks of is reflection which is understood as a daily examining Carmealite spirituality. So I do it twice a day. Do you do it once a day? >> I do it at night for marital. I mean you're single but you should probably do that once you guys get married soon. >> And I do mine uh in the morning looking at yesterday against my rule of life. >> So it's but I the method you described from father partunic is is excellent as well. uh whatever way you do it, just do it. And you begin to become awake to to patterns. And and that's why somebody gets stuck in mortal sin is they're asleep to the patterns in their lives. >> And I'll throw in one more thing that I I do and I recommend to people and almost I don't think I've had a single person ever come back and say this wasn't completely transformative because that's just the general response is uh I do a top three plus one in in uh conjunction with usually before the exam. >> Yeah. And what that is is essentially these are the three things that happened today that I'm thankful for. The plus one is for those with a spouse and you specifically save that plus one and respond as something that you're thankful for regarding your your loved one. >> Yeah. >> Um and the reason that is so effective is because by nature it puts you in a position of thankfulness. >> Yeah. and you're now already looking back over your day and thinking, okay, what am I thankful for today? So, it's almost like a pre-examine in a way, even though it's just pure thanksgiving. >> Yeah. >> Um, but it it is a good precursor to that that helps kind of prime your mental state to be more receptive to the exam. >> Well, and Stephanie, I use that as that is our examine. It begins with God, come to my assistance. Lord, my case, help me. >> And then, what are your top three? >> And uh so, yeah, it's the best way. and then okay now do a silent examination of conscience then you clear up whatever's between you or whatever >> um so you know if you want to learn to do that there's plenty of resources out there to learn how to do that the other one is holy habits I want to which is an app that we developed that helps you to define a rule of life helps you get accountability all that so holy habits app check that out and that'll help you too >> the final one and we can just close out with this and we'll get to intermittent piety on the next episode but uh sacraments attends mass regularly and pursues confession more frequently. >> So that means they just generally will go to mass on Sunday and um are are dis or are are are disposed to confession more than once a year. That's what that means. it you know as we go through the purgative way we'll we'll this is you know phase one purgative way stage one mediocre piety we'll do get to two two more stages and we'll describe how mortal sin venial sin uh suffering prayer all all examine all that progresses as you grow in spiritual strength >> awesome [clears throat] all rights 16:20 the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet the grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.