Video summary
The core subject of this discussion is the spiritual practice of discernment of spirits, a tool designed to help individuals recognize and neutralize the deceptive lies of the enemy that often sound real and present. Hosts Dan Burke and Mary Ruth Hackett explain that while mental prayer is essential for spiritual growth, discernment acts as a specific mechanism to immediately identify these attacks before they take root. They use the metaphor of removing a blindfold or putting on special glasses to describe how this practice activates a new sense within us, allowing believers to see invisible influences at work in their lives. By understanding that our world extends beyond the five physical senses, Christians can better navigate difficulties and suffering by distinguishing between genuine concerns and malicious deceptions planted by the adversary.
To effectively combat these lies, the hosts outline specific steps rooted in the teachings of St. Ignatius of Loyola, primarily focusing on bringing intrusive thoughts into the light by sharing them with a holy person rather than ruminating on them alone. The underlying principle is that exposing the enemy to those who are spiritually strong weakens his power, similar to how exorcists seek to reveal details about a demon to diminish its influence. This process involves not only verbalizing the struggle but also actively seeking counter-evidence to challenge negative thoughts, such as reminding oneself of past successes or character strengths when facing feelings of inadequacy. It is crucial that this sharing happens with someone who is on a path toward holiness, as the enemy does not fear those who lack spiritual integrity, making the choice of confidant vital for safety and effective spiritual warfare.
The conversation further explores how these lies often stem from deep-seated wounds or sins that serve as entry points for attack, such as feelings of being an inadequate parent or a failure in one's calling. The hosts share personal anecdotes where they felt overwhelmed by thoughts like "I am a terrible parent" or "my life is wasted," only to find relief through immediate prayer and the validation of trusted friends who helped them identify the spiritual root of their agitation. They emphasize that while some patterns may take decades to heal due to childhood trauma, the immediate response should always be to reject the lie in Jesus' name and embrace the corresponding truth. This approach not only provides instant emotional relief but also prevents these destructive thoughts from spilling over and damaging relationships with family members or affecting daily decision-making.
Ultimately, the video concludes by reinforcing that spiritual warfare is a battle where believers possess divine power to destroy strongholds and take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. The hosts illustrate this with a poignant story of a young woman who felt her life was meaningless; through a simple prayer of renouncing the lie and embracing God's truth, her despair vanished instantly, highlighting the transformative power of this practice. The takeaway is that by surrounding ourselves with holy friends, acknowledging our vulnerabilities, and consistently applying the rules of discernment, we can strip the enemy of his ability to confuse us and protect our families from the ripple effects of spiritual confusion. This disciplined approach turns a time of desolation into an opportunity for deeper intimacy with God and greater clarity in navigating life's challenges.
Read the full video transcript
This is Dan Burke and Mary Ruth Hackett.
Welcome to Divine Intimacy Radio, your
radio haven of breast,
>> your hermitage of the heart,
>> your monastery of mind, where we lift
our hearts and minds to heaven to draw
upon the wisdom of the saints to help us
navigate the difficulties,
the suffering uh of this life. Mary
Ruth, of course, is not Stephanie Burke,
but she's a friend of both of ours and a
co-author of a book that she and I wrote
together recently that I can't recommend
enough. And I'll tell you why in a
second, Discernment of Spirits and uh
for beginners, learning how to hear God
and default uh um defeat the lies of the
enemy, which we're going to be talking
about here. if how to how to we're going
to deal with a question today of
uh there's somebody who's hearing lies
from the enemy
and they sound real and present real
um but how do how do they keep them from
affecting them and then affecting
interaction with their family I believe
it doesn't indicate male female but
usually women are more sensitive to
these things So, I'm going to assume
female. Before we get to the question
though, uh and this, by the way, is a
follow-up question from spiritual
warfare in the family um uh summit that
we had this year. And and folks can find
out uh [clears throat] uh if you go to
spiritualdirection.com,
Maggie, producer lady, what do they
search for to get to the vault or the
the summit um uh vault? Because I think
these talks are going into the vault.
spiritualirection.com/vault2026.
Okay. spiritualdirection.com
and I'm writing this down for
myself/vault
2026.
So if you made it to the conference you
already have access to the vault. Um and
if you didn't you can still get access.
So what we've done is there were more
questions we could answer on uh during
the summit and we've we've uh organized
them such we're going to we're just
going to answer them in subsequent
divine intimacy radio shows. Uh we may
have some interviews in the middle but
Dr. Hackett was one of the speakers uh
at the um spiritual warfare in the
family and she has a PhD in in
psychology with an emphasis on parenting
and identity development. She uh hosts
her podcast parenting smarts. You can
find out more about her out at
maryuthhacket.com.
It's spelled as it sounds. There's two
t's in hacket. maryruuthhacket.com.
Mary Ruth, welcome back to the show.
>> Thanks. It's nice to be back here.
>> Yeah. you know, um it's uh I don't know
what [clears throat] it is and I you and
I have talked about it a bit, but I
think that this whole teaching of
discernment of spirits
of all the teachings that I've come
across in terms of immediate powerful
transformative impact, this is it. Um it
it mental prayer of course is in
indispensable.
Nobody can make spiritual progress
without it. But discernment of spirits I
have found
uh when people practice it, they find
immediate results which has which is
immediately reinforcing, encouraging,
consoling, which then draws them deeper
and and I'm finding that it's even more
important to teach it before mental
prayer in in a sense it frees up a space
to follow the Lord. So, you know, I know
this is newer to you. I mean, we wrote
the book together, uh, Discernment of
Spirits for Beginners, but are you
finding that same thing out there or
what do you what are you discovering as
you give your talks and and speak on
this subject?
>> Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned that
because that is exactly what I'm
finding. I I recently spoke to a group
of a fairly large retreat
>> [clears throat]
>> um of young young adults and teens and
one of the consistent comments was I was
just this this gratitude for a new
awareness. It's like they had been
operating with a blindfold on
>> and just getting the basics takes that
blindfold off so they can start seeing
things more clearly around them.
>> [laughter]
>> Um, and [clears throat] and that's
incredible because young adults
especially, um, and I would say this for
any any beginners if you don't know
about discernment of spirits yet,
there's often a drive and a curiosity
and a a seeking to understand the world
around them more deeply. And when you
have that innate curiosity, it can lead
you in one direction or the other. you
take the blindfold off and um equip them
with the ability to sort of make sense
of the world around them in a new way. I
mean, even with my my youngest, she's
commented as as we continue to I
continue to teach her about um
discernment of spirits is just what a
relief it is to suddenly it's there's
this comfort. It's it's not it's not
scary. It's clarifying and you really do
just see the world around you
differently.
>> You know, as you're talking, you're
using the word blindfold. And I just got
a vision of there was this movie uh like
a hundred years ago with Arnold
Schwarzenegger called Predator, I think.
>> And it's about this creature that is
invisible and they're having to battle
this invisible creature. Mhm.
>> And and when you have an enemy that's
invisible to you, it's really easy to
get this snot beat out of you and to be
surprised constantly or whatever. But if
if I could superimpose discernment of
spirits on that movie,
>> it would be like a pair of glasses you
could put on
>> and then suddenly you could see the
enemy at work. Now you can fight.
>> It's almost like you're activating a new
sense, Dan. And and I think people don't
realize that they have this sense, but
you really are activating a new sense
that you've never used before. Um, so
obviously we have the five senses and
sometimes we rely so heavily on those
and we do just growing up. We rely it's
it's those senses are there to protect
us from the world around us. They tell
us that a car is coming. They tell us
that that that there's something
burning. You know, we can smell it. Our
senses are incredibly important. But
understanding discernment of spirits
really gives us an additional sense to
um to develop to come to understand um
so that we can be fully equipped to deal
with the world because our our world is
more than just the five what we
experience in the five senses.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Okay.
[clears throat]
to our question, how not to ruminate on
the devil's lies that sound so real and
present and then how to keep those lies
from affecting how I then interact with
my family and uh the choices that I
make. So, what what's your take a take
any part of that question and let's dig
into it.
>> Yeah, I I think um there are a couple
steps that are important um that St.
Ignatius of Loyola. I mean, it's it's
not in anything that you and I created,
but um would point out and one of those
is to bring it to the light. When you
have a a thought that you continue to
proceverate on, bring it to the light. I
know often I will get something, you
know, that that 1:00 a.m. or 3:00 a.m.
wake up and then I'll think, oh, and
then I'll start worrying about a kid and
and and one of the things. And so the
the best thing for me to do is the next
morning, I don't wake my husband up in
the middle of the night, but the next
morning, you know, while we're having
coffee, say, you know, I woke up in the
middle of the night and I I couldn't
help but think, you know, this, this,
and this, and I just I'm really
concerned about it.
And then you're bringing it to the light
with someone else who is um hopefully
also on that that spiritual path towards
holiness, you know, walking that that
way of perfection. and um and and
bringing it to the light is just a
brilliant way to get some feedback. And
then the second thing I would say is um
related to that is looking at the
evidence for your thoughts and looking
at the counter evidence, you know,
playing um pulling that that out. And
that's what I do with my kids when they
start ruminating on thoughts and they
bring it to me is to um to give them the
counter evidence. you know, if they
start saying, you know, I'm never going
to be, you know, good at this or I'm
never going to have any friends or I'm
never going to be successful in this way
to say, well, hang on, let's back up a
little bit and and you know, I recognize
what you're saying. You know, you
validate that you hear what they're
saying because you have to connect with
them. But then you you provide the
counter evidence and say, "Yeah, I'm not
sure why you would say that you're never
going to be successful at this. You
know, you had a rough, you know,
whatever experience today, but you have
shown, you know, great perseverance.
You've shown great success in other
areas." And so you you know you kind of
give them the counter evidence for it.
So those are those are I think the two
first steps um for us in our household.
>> So let's talk about why those are so
powerful. Um but uh the evidence uh and
counter evidence you said and then um
also but what you said first was that
you expose uh the destructive thoughts.
So the the first rule the first rule you
followed in the first 14 rules of
Ignatius is the first thing that came to
mind was I reveal those destructive
patterns of thought to um your husband.
And you you said something though that I
I would I want to just purify just a tad
and that is
>> you you you said that hopefully they're
holy. I think you may have said that and
I would say they absolutely must be.
>> Yeah. because the devil's not afraid of
anyone who's not holy,
>> right?
>> Um but he is deeply affected by
uh being exposed if if you um
I've had the blessing, I guess, of being
involved in many exorcisms and the the
power of the enemy diminishes as it's
forced to reveal things about itself.
>> And I don't know why it works that way.
It just does. So if you most people are
aware that exorcists are always trying
to get the name of the demon but they're
also trying to get when does it enter in
when did it enter how did it enter are
there any um remnants you know physical
remnants in the body of the person you
know these sorts of things and as each
thing is revealed they they lose more
and more power. So, so this isn't an
extra symbolism. Obviously, this is a a
woman uh or man struggling with junk in
their head. You said tell someone,
>> which is
>> Yeah. But not anyone.
>> Not right. [laughter]
>> Not just anybody.
>> Yes. Tell a holy person.
>> Right.
>> And so the reason it works is that same
principle that we find in exorcism. And
that is that when you expose the enemy,
he is in in Ignatius's rule, he's
dissuaded, right?
>> But there's more to it than just being
dissuaded or uh but he's actually
weakened.
>> So it's it's a a weakening in a kind of
discouraging way, but I think it's also
a diminishing of power that goes beyond
merely intellectual, psychological, if
we can use those terms relate to demons.
So if you want to take the power of the
devil out of your crummy thoughts that
you have and because you know and this
person seems to know that that's the
source
>> you tell somebody. Now what's important
is that it doesn't have to be a super
formal thing. So Stephanie and I have a
thing between us and we also have a a uh
what do you call it? A um intercessors
group that's come constantly praying for
us. And let's say one day I'm in
desolation. I can text her desolation.
Um or and if it's really bad, I'll text
the or I'll send a note to the
intercessors group and say desolation
and that that I've had that sometimes
where I press send and the and the
desolation lifts it just immediate
effect. So I'm curious, we're going to
have to head into a break here in just a
second, but I'm curious to hear from
you.
Do you remember the first time you
practiced that rule? And and what was
it? And you may not want to reveal it
to, you know, a million people on 300
radio stations and all that, but what
was it that um you revealed and then
what happened afterwards? Uh cuz I doubt
that you believe in this as much as you
do if you didn't experience personally
the benefits of it. So when we get back
from the break, we'll hear more from
Mary Ruth Hackett. We'll be right back.
This is Dan Burke. Welcome back to
Divine Intimacy Radio with Mary Ruth
Hackett, the co-author of a book that we
wrote together that I believe in. On a
scale of 1 to 10, I believe in this book
at a 3 bill472,000.
So, it's off the scale. Um, it's was
written to help young adults
get their their minds and hearts around
the power and principles of discernment
of spirits, which we're also talking
about now. So, uh, Mary Ruth, um, did
you have a personal experience of the
benefit of that rule?
>> Yeah, I don't know that I can go back
and tell you the first time that I
experienced it, but I I will say, you
know, not not too long ago.
>> Um, I was [clears throat] just really
there was a parenting fair, what I
perceived as a parenting fail. I think
sometimes as a parent, you can see
what's going on with your kids and if
they're not doing everything the way
that you want them to be doing things as
they reach young adulthood in
particular, you can look at it and say
like, "Ah, I've, you know, I've failed
as a parent because
>> they're doing X, Y, or Z."
>> But, and I think that is sort of a
natural, although it's not healthy, it's
sort of a natural um response sometimes
to family life. However, um the the
rumination and the lie that that got
under my skin and under into into my
heart was that I'm not a good parent.
That I have no business doing parent
education. That I have no experience
writing books or speaking or having a
podcast on parenting. That um basically,
you know, my life is is um is is
terrible and um and and and a and a lie,
right? Because if my child did X, then
that must mean that all advice that I
ever could possibly give or have given
must be void, right? So I reached out to
actually two friends of mine, beautiful,
wonderful Catholic women, and I just
sort of sent an SOS and said, "Can
anybody meet up tonight? I I need I need
prayer. I need to talk." and and we met
and um I was able to share with them
what was going on and
it was beautiful. I mean it was just
absolutely beautiful
>> to um get not just the encouragement
that you know I'm not a terrible mom
>> because on my heart I know I'm not a
terrible mom. I have four amazing
wonderful kids um but also like I just
know that I'm not a terrible mom. So
[clears throat]
to get that that that validation, but
also to sort of go one step further with
that because often when the when the
when the devil attacks you in a certain
way, there's a reason why he's attacking
you in that way. And so because they are
familiar with St. Ignatius rules of
discernment, um they were able to sort
of take it to that next level and say,
"Okay, why why are you being attacked in
this way? Let's let's look at that a
little So, we were able to look at
issues of spiritual pride and um
scrupulosity and just I mean all sorts
of other little little but big things
>> that I wasn't even didn't even have my
attention on. Um and so it was and and
then provide me with that encouragement
to hey, why don't you go to confession
in the morning? Let's which is another
great step once you've once you've dealt
with attack. not because I was doing
anything horrible or I was at fault for
the attack, but um it's just a a a
beautiful response to the devil to get
more grace. Um,
>> and so I think that for me was really an
incredible experience
um, in the moment to have these two
women minister to me and um, reveal the
why for what it was, provide the the the
prayer in the moment and the guidance on
why this is happening and and what I can
be aware of in the future and and then,
you know, help to help me with the next
steps.
>> Yeah. And just out of curiosity, how did
you know that it was in the voice of the
enemy instead of your own?
>> I don't think in the moment I did.
>> Okay. Just with it regardless,
>> right? And so that I think is one of the
reasons why it is really important that
we surround ourselves with good,
healthy, holy
friends
>> and that we encourage our children to
have good, healthy, holy friends and
that we continue to be available to them
>> as they get older knowing that they can
come to us.
>> Um we can serve that role for them as
they get older without judgment, without
um without anger. um that we can provide
counsel and mentor them in a different
way than you know we'd get on their case
for you know not making their bed or you
know leaving the lights on or messing
with the air conditioner. You know that
those sorts of like parenting things
right are very different than if they
come to you with you know ruminating
thoughts or um real deep um agitation
about about certain things.
>> Yeah. I want to address uh another
aspect of what this uh person said is
they said how not to ruminate on the
devil's lies. Um the it's an interesting
question right because rumination is
in in the Hebrew behind the biblical
word when it uses rumination in the Old
Testament it's to chew the cud. It's a
cow's um digestive system where they
chew and then bring it back up and chew
and bring and it goes, you know, so it's
like a
>> it's a it's a getting every ounce of
nutrient out of whatever it is you're
you're trying to do.
>> And so I'm assuming they use this on
purpose, which means they're they're
allowing their mind to focus on the
lies, right? And and really what they
need to do is follow St. Paul in uh
Corinthians where he said that we're in
a war but that we have divine power.
>> And it literally says we're in a war and
that we have divine power. The power the
divine power we have is to destroy
strongholds lies in our head. And he
says, "And we are to take every thought
captive to the obedience of Christ." So
this uh what we have already talked
about which is using rule 13 which is
reach out to somebody who's holy which
diminishes the power of the enemy. But
then once that power is diminished we
can easily allow those thoughts back.
Yeah.
>> And sometimes it takes quite a bit of
time depending on how deeply rooted
those thoughts are in the wounds within
us
>> to get rid of. I mean, I took for me
just cuz my childhood was terrible
decades to unravel, reprogram,
you know, and un discover, you know, and
get rid of these things. But it's really
important that we specifically
learn when these especially when there's
patterns like let's say you had the
you're a terrible parent that day you
talked to your friends
um
uh and they helped you and it comes up
again and it comes up again I would
probably if you asked me I would
probably say when's the first time you
felt that what and what is it in your
past
>> there I think this is coming from
something deeper than just
uh a random thought because one of your
your kids, adult, teen, whatever did
something stupid.
>> What are you what are your thoughts
about wounds and the lies of the enemy?
>> Yeah, I mean wounds are one of those u
entry points, right? The two entry
points for, you know, a lot of
>> uh for for significant attack is the
wounds and then the sin. And so um he he
finds where we are weakest and
>> that's where he he kicks us and attacks
us. And so when we can recognize these
patterns going going back and you know
having a spiritual director is
incredible in in in help in this area
>> to sort of help you do that
retrospective and to look and see where
where do you have wounds? Where does
this come from? Why is this an element
of um
why are you vulnerable in this area?
>> Um you know I don't I have not been able
to you know full disclosure to to really
pinpoint where or how um this where
where this is you know where where this
is coming from um in in my own life. So
that's work that I'm still um
>> Is it working on?
>> Is it reoccurring?
>> Um no, I think it it since I have the
awareness now
>> it is much better. But I think what it's
sort of been
what what is playing out now is just
this notion of um almost like imposttor
syndrome that you know I have no
business telling anybody anything about
anything not just parenting but you know
kind of kind of moving into that realm
that you know oh just be quiet and go
away you don't really know what you're
talking about. So, you know, I say that
with a smile because you I was just
talking to someone a couple days ago
about it u a guest for for my upcoming
season and we were just discussing that
that very notion. Um and he's a clinical
psychologist, not my psychologist, but
he's a clinical psychologist. And um
yeah, and he texted me the next day was
like, "Hey, can I have some prayers in
this this and such area?" And it's it's
exactly what you were talking about just
sending a message out. But it gave me
this awareness that okay, a lot of
people who work in ministry feel
inadequate um because it's such an
important and beautiful
>> um call. It's such a a different way of
serving the Lord. And I think that a lot
of us in ministry are vulnerable to
that.
>> Yeah. I think you're what you're what's
happening to you. I mean, I haven't
known you for that long, but it seems to
me like your public um the the awareness
of the Catholic world is growing for you
in your work. And so, the enemy doesn't
want that. And so, it may not even be
rooted in a wound womb,
>> a wound. Um it but it could be rooted in
a a wound of you know you're not worthy
uh fundamentally of of of presenting
yourself good as being good. But
regardless of that back to the question
that we had. So you you we exposed the
lie and then they said now how do I keep
this from affecting my family? Well, the
the bottom line is you to the degree
that we you and I, whoever is listening,
>> um understand these lies, reject them,
fight against them, um propose to oursel
the corresponding truth, reject them in
Jesus name, which is important thing to
do.
>> Um it's really common if somebody's
struggling and they say, "I'm
struggling." I say, "What are you
hearing?" And it's it's really common.
they can say one sentence, you know, uh
it was a very sad situation recently, a
young woman who was um discerning with
our community. I just was with her this
week and then she passed away. She's
only 30 years old, but um she uh I could
tell when we were in this group
gathering, she was struggling. We
stepped out and I said, "You look near
tears. What's going on?" And uh I I said
to you, "What are you hearing?" and she
heard you're I'm wasting my life just
right like just that quick and easy.
>> And so we prayed I I led her in a prayer
and I said pray after me in Jesus name.
In Jesus name I renounce the lie that
I'm wasting my life in Jesus. So she
prayed that and in Jesus name I embrace
the truth that everything that happens
is caused or allowed by God and is
necessary for my salvation. Instantly
her countenance lifted. Instantly she
was uh relieved and could, you know, her
tears started to fade and and she was
more joyful. We're at the end of our
show today. She she died uh of a medical
condition, but we pray pray pray God
rest her soul. But Mary Ruth, it's been
good talking to you about this very
powerful tool of recognizing, resisting,
and following discernment of spirits.
And I look forward to having you on
again to continue these conversations.
And until next time, may the God of
peace may peace make you perfect in
holiness. May he preserve you whole and
entire, spirit, soul, and body
irrachable at the coming of our Lord
Jesus Christ. Amen.