How To BUILD MUSCLE & Lose Belly Fat For LONGEVITY! | Gabrielle Lyon

The body thrives under activity. And whether you take a human, whether you take an animal, if you essentially domesticate them and they are not training, they will lose muscle. You can only pull one lever. So, if you you have two levers, you have diet and you have muscle mass. Which would you have somebody pull for longevity? You can have an amazing diet, but you have very little muscle mass, you don't do a lot of exercising, or you're like my swimmer friend and you have in just incredible output. You're exerting yourself tremendously. You have a great amount of lean body mass. We all know what swimmers look like. They look fantastic. Um but your diet is a Twinkie diet, like you called it. Which of those two levers is going to be more impactful? Okay, so I'm going to tell you what the research shows and then I'm going to tell you my personal experience. Word. So, the research would say, "Hey, if you had to prioritize one over the other, prioritize resistance training." Okay. That being said, in clinical practice, I have absolutely never seen that work. If they prioritize dietary protein and they get that first meal right, by lunch they feel better. I'm not asking them to wait 4 weeks. You nail that first meal, by the second meal you feel better. You want to deal with body composition, you want to deal with optimal aging, you want to overcome this concept of anabolic resistance, which we can talk about. The only and most effective Now, again, this is my personal opinion based on seeing hundreds and I know I've been at the bedside of hundreds of dying people. Geriatrics is no joke. And if I could pull the lever and go back in time, what would I tell them? You know, I would say you've got to do both, but when you're young, you have more flexibility and you can out train a bad diet. But as soon as those hormones begin to change, if you have low-quality protein, and by the way, protein is utilized in a dose response. So, it's a a meal dosage. It's really a 30 to 50 g meal dosing. So, that's between 4 and, you know, 5 to 6 oz of protein per meal. And if you go under under that, you are below what's called this leucine threshold. And I I want to make this very palatable for people. So, basically, there's essential amino acids. And out of these essential amino acids, that's really what determines the quality of a person's diet and the quality of protein. So, when they are sub-threshold of one particular amino acid, which is leucine, if you eat food that is sub-threshold to that 2 and 1/2 g of leucine, you will be skinny fat. You will never activate the proper mechanisms to turn over muscle protein synthesis. And this is a huge problem in our society. You know, there's nutrient sensors in the body. So, hitting that particular amino acid load, which is really 4 to 6 oz easy, and it's easy for people to anchor their meals in, you know, 4 to 6 oz of protein, and then you stimulate your muscle tissue, which we know is an endocrine organ. Let's talk about that. If you're not trying to bodybuild, if you're not trying to get bigger, um so, I'm thinking I know somebody, love her to death, she's amazing, but her diet is ridiculous. But she's skinny. Her whole family's skinny. It's crazy. And so, I've always said, I guarantee if you look at her biomarkers, she's going to be skinny fat. She's going to be probably pre-diabetic, judging by how she eats. It's, you know, pure insanity. Cuz I I want to differentiate between busting your ass in the gym and what you're going to get from that, and then just like, "Hey, even if you don't care about the gym, even if you don't buy into that, uh there's just a quality of tissue issue, And if you think of it as an organ, it's like saying the quality of the tissue of your liver or your kidneys. It's like this [ __ ] matters. So, if people could do one thing and leave this conversation with nothing else other than muscle is the organ of longevity and eat high-quality protein, animal protein, and plant protein are totally different. And if you have a diet of plant protein, it is very hard to sustain and calorically devastating cuz you need between 25% and 40% more. So, it's like six cups of quinoa for one small chicken breast. If you really wanted to think about the amino acids necessary to stimulate that tissue. And listen, that's not the only way to do it. Could we add in branched-chain amino acids to lower-quality protein? Absolutely. But, why would you do that when we have you know, cattle or a ruminant that have that we've been consuming for 2.5 million years and have the capacity to take low-quality plant nutrition and produce high-quality nutrition with that is nutrient-dense and highly bioavailable for humans. So, I understand I've heard you say the same thing. Like, I understand people have they may have a, um, a moral desire to eat plant-based food and I get that, dude. As somebody who's absolutely I just love animals and I long for the day where we can lab grow meat and that there was never an animal, um, involved in that process. But, I'm also just selfish enough to say I'm going to protect my health. Yeah. Um, you know, when you look at obviously sustainable farming and things like that, I'm all for it. I couldn't be more behind that. Um, but wanting to understand sort of at a mechanistic cellular level what's happening and I don't care what the answer is, vegan, vegetarian, animal, a mix thereof. Um, I just want to understand like at a cellular level what's happening. Um, and to get that, I think understanding the what branched-chain amino acids are, why they matter, and how the profiles differ from plants to meat, I think it would be really helpful. Yeah, I I couldn't agree with you more. So, really the quality of our diet, and this is globally, the quality of our diet is largely dependent on protein. So, there's 20 amino acids, and nine of those are essential. Of those essential amino acids, you have the meaning I I cannot produce it in my body. Exactly. So, the key branched-chain amino acids, and when you think about branched-chain, it's just the structure, right? It's just a nomenclature. You've got leucine, isoleucine, and valine. And out of those three, which by the way should all be consumed together, cuz everything in life has its own balance. Of those three amino acids, leucine is the most relevant for protecting the organ of longevity. And on a cellular level, having the right amount at one time, dosed appropriately, which is where that 2 and 1/2 g, that's from the That's just from research. But, you know, it's really truthfully, it's between 1.8 to 2.5 g of leucine, which the majority of people are not going to go, "Hmm, how much leucine is in my food?" right? It's not on the back of a label, which just goes to show you how protein has been the black sheep of the macronutrient family for decades. When you look at a label, all it simply says is protein. But, understanding on a cellular level that really eating protein at a meal-centric dosing, meaning you at one time, you're not drinking protein shakes over a course of 2 hours, but at one meal, at a bolus amount, you are getting between 30 and 50 g of protein, which would translate to between 4 and 6 oz of high-quality protein would reach that leucine threshold. So, once you reach that leucine threshold, you trigger this this complex called mTOR. mTOR is a mechanistic target of rapamycin, which then is actually a nutrient sensor. Anything below that, the body's like, "Mhm, I don't care. I'm not going to put on muscle." Or, "Mhm, I don't care. I'm not going to really stimulate this very expensive elaborate process for the body." It doesn't care. So, that's where you get that skinny fat because you're grazing all day at this low threshold meal, especially important in aging because you don't have that flexibility. And when I say aging, I'm talking about 40s. You know, you've got to stay on top of it, but once you reach that threshold of arguably 2 and 1/2 g of leucine, which you could have a 2 oz of fish and then a scoop of branched chain and get up that leucine level. But, mechanistically, you need that branched chain, that essential amino acid, to then trigger the rest of what needs to happen for muscle protein synthesis. And listen, the way that they measure muscle protein synthesis, it's not like you eat it and then you're laying down protein. It truly I mean, that's not an accurate assessment, right? I would be not being truthful if I said that, but it really is a period of time. Over a period of time as you continue to do with anything correct, optimized habits, you then can protect your tissue. And protecting tissue is everything. You know, and it's very dangerous because when people do weight loss, you know, you lose some fat, but you also lose tissue. And now we're in a situation where we're not outside and we're not doing resistance training, and we're not actually moving that endocrine organ. So, you know, it becomes much more difficult to maintain and recoup that tissue. And the tissue is just one aspect. It's truly the metabolic aspects, you know, of the of muscle. And if you want to prevent diabetes, heart disease, Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, you know, cardiovascular disease, that whole spectrum, tiss- you know, muscle tissue will do that for you. And then you put on high-quality protein, you're going to keep inflammation low, you're going to keep calories in check, you're going to upregulate your thermoeffective feeding. These are all really important. You're going to do you're going to have lower blood pressure because some of the amino acids, one in particular, helps lower blood pressure. I mean, this is amazing stuff. It's a muscle-centric approach to wellness, and the paradigm is totally wrong. 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I know in the cancer community, one of the the things they look at is when muscle mass gets too low, they're just like they're they're one illness away from demise. And same thing with old people, it's like, "Hey, you might be able to survive the flu if you've got enough muscle to see you through." Um but if not, then you could really be in trouble. So, it's interesting to hear that broken down. I I want to go back to what you were saying about that first meal, um which I think you're quite careful not to necessarily refer to it as breakfast, but your first meal, um getting getting that right. Um I'd love to hear what right is. Like in the real world, am I eating eggs? Am I eating chicken breast? Am I eating quinoa? Like what am I eating? You are not eating So, if you get that first meal right, if your meal is bolus with protein, you do a few things. Number one, you stimulate your muscle tissue, which is arguably the most important organ, right? But number two, there and there's really good data that it actually helps with satiation and blood sugar regulation. So you are not going to be chasing 90 minutes later your blood sugar. You are not going to be obsessed in your mind and not able to focus because you want to eat or you feel like you have to take a nap. Yeah, I I encourage people to try to overeat steamed chicken breast. It's like good luck. Like you will tap out long before you get obese, that is for sure. So what are Give me some ideal protein sources. Am I eating is it chicken breast? Is it red meat? So we eat a lot of beef in our family, beef, bison, eggs. We are not a low-fat family. So you know, for breakfast for us might be half a pound of bison each with a little bit of olive oil and maybe some avocado. But we're low-carb for that first meal. We tend to do carb back-loading or if we're going to have carbohydrates, use carbohydrates around a meal. Now my husband is a SEAL, so they, you know, they kind of like go crazy and train and then eat and train. Navy SEAL for anybody wondering. No, arguably he's probably an animal, but it's okay. Um so that's how we but the first meal is always the same. Why do you do carbs later in the day? That's interesting. Because you've been up and you've been utilizing your tissue. So you depleted your muscle glycogen essentially. I mean listen, the the the data would show in a 24-hour period. So I want to be very careful to say this is my experience because the data will say, well, in a 24-hour period, how much carbohydrates are you utilizing? And I would say it's much easier to backload your carbohydrates or utilize them around training. Perhaps post workout, so I do believe that training low glycogen state is very beneficial. Do you work out fasted or do you work out or have your first meal? I do. So, I work out fasted. And do you have a strategy behind why you do that? So, I think that training low, I like my body to become very proficient and and efficient on its own. I like to be able to make all the glucose I need. Right? And because my diet is high in protein, there is what happens is it goes through gluconeogenesis. So, truly for every 100 g of protein that I eat, my body generates 60 g of carbohydrates itself. So, I am not reliant on quinoa for breakfast or carbohydrates. My body becomes so good at making and generating its own that it allows me any carbohydrates then? You know, truthfully, I don't eat a bunch of carbs. It when I work them in, it would be, you know, possibly we had a really busy day. We have a little infant, you know, and we have no child care, so we're just kind of, you know, busy and we're training and, you know, if I've gone for a lot of training that day and I'm running around chasing her, I might have, you know, and it's meal specific. So, there's a carbohydrate threshold, which is how I like to think about carbohydrates. I might have, you know, 20 g of some kind of carbohydrate in the evening. And and truly, the carbs that I love, and everybody says this, are green leafy, you know, vegetables, but I really like things like cilantro and chives, things that maybe have more medicinal purposes. And that's really what we use. So. So, herbs as medicine, which ones, what effect? I am certainly not an expert on herbs, but I will tell you one of the things that we use is this isn't an herb, but I'm just very strategic. So, like in the morning, I'll use something called Sunup green coffee. And it's it's this one company that I just really love and I have no connection to them, but they have a product that I think nobody knows about that everybody should. And it's raw green coffee. So, it looks like tea. I don't make it. I get it Clear like that. It didn't look It tastes like tea. And it really and it has a high amount of polyphenols, which I know that there's a lot of debate in, but I believe in polyphenols. And it has does What do the polyphenols do for you? So, they're antioxidants. They have numerous effects, anti-cancer activity. And I will tell you that I am able to maintain my body composition by doing these very strategic things and just being very conscientious of utilizing simple tools that I have found incredibly helpful. Like for example, um jalapenos. Using raw jalapenos with capsaicin, you know, the whole goal is optimizing body composition. And you utilize these in an you know, over a period of time in enough amounts, and the body generates its own effect. And listen, this is totally subjective. You do have to control for calories. But there are things that we just as scientists or as practitioners, physicians don't necessarily understand. But I can tell you that it works. So, I use chlorogenic acid What is that? I've never heard of that. What is it? That's the green coffee. That's why I use the green coffee. Chlorogenic acid? Yeah. Has high amounts of chlorogenic acid. You're going to try it? put together before. Chlorogenic acid, okay. It's a compound that helps with fatty acid metabolism. Hm. Very interesting. Okay, so we have our green coffee. Um and then uh what else are we doing in terms of um herbs? Um a lot of cilantro. And they you know, there's some belief and through what mechanism I don't know, but very detoxifying. You know, a lot of individuals with quote heavy metals will utilize a cilantro base kind of compound. Cilantro, parsley, chives, garlic. People are like, I'm not coming in your house. It's all right. But it it would be interesting because I think that that's the You know, I think we're all looking for ways to optimize longevity at the not just at the end of life. So, it doesn't really matter if you live to 100 versus 105 or 95 to 100 if the last 5 years suck, right? So, how do we live a way that surpasses what we've seen for longevity, but the quality of our life is together. And that's the question is not the length, right? So, it's not quantity of life. It truly is quality towards the end. So, really I'm starting to experiment with these things as it relates to longevity and quality while keeping Really fast, give people a bit of a breakdown on your background in geriatrics. One, I don't know that everybody knows what a geriatrics is. Um and then two, I know you spent a lot of time in palliative care. So, what that is and sort of the It's given you sort of a tough edge and no-bullshit approach to this that I really respect. So, first, what is geriatrics and palliative care and then what have you learned from it? Yeah. And and I'm going to tell you where muscle-centric medicine came from. There was a turning point moment that was during my fellowship. Um So, geriatrics is really it's taking care of aging and it's over the it's 65 and older. And that's what's considered geriatrics. And then palliative care is the end of life. So, you are really at the end of your life, whether it's a month or so. And and that's really transitioning to the other side, whatever that other side is. So, when I did my fellowship at WashU, it was a 2-year fellowship and part of the deal was I was going to get to do nutritional sciences. So, I've trained 7 years in nutritional sciences. But the deal the deal is in order to do clinical research. So I did two years of clinical research. Part of the way that it worked was as a physician, I also had to have clinical duties. Part of those clinical duties, the agreement was, you know, there's always a give and take. The agreement was I got to do obesity medicine and run a weight loss clinic and and image people's brains and be part of you glycemic clamps and do all this really rad stuff. But in order for me to do that, I had to take care of people in nursing homes at the end of life in the hospital and geriatrics, and I'm sure everybody, many people have had aging parents. It is not, I mean diseases of aging are heart-crushing, bone-sucking, like it is so harsh. And that's why I feel so passionate about this message because I've actually done the work and sat at the bedside of these people. You know, and at the end at that moment in time, you can look back and you know, people have a lot of regrets. And I will never forget and the muscle-centric medicine came from a very specific moment. Part of the research I was doing as I was imaging people's brains. It was obese brains mid-life. Incredible women, round, you know, late 40s, early 50s. And I have to change the name of this woman, so we'll call her Sarah. And Sarah was the nicest woman and she had three kids. She'd been overweight her whole life. And I had to sit with her, you know, we did 24-hour you glycemic clamps, sit with her and you really get to know these people. You see them at multiple points in the study. And one of the parts of the study was imaging her brain. Just to see what her brain looked like. And when we imaged her brain, she had a lot of like flattening of her matter. And it came from midlife obesity. And we knew that within, you know, really 10 years down the line, she's going to have a Alzheimer's. What is flattening of the matter? What is that? So, the gray matter, right? So, that the brains that the wider the waistline, the lower the brain volume. So, Alzheimer's, there are many there are many multiple different aspects of Alzheimer's, but Alzheimer's is type 3 diabetes of the brain. It's a metabolic illness that can be prevented just like diabetes, just like cardiovascular disease, just like hypertension. And listen, I I want to say this with a little bit of reserve because there are genetic components. However, lifestyle choices midlife, having access to the right information changes the trajectory of aging. I was so heartbroken when we reviewed her fMRI study. I was heartbroken because all she told me was, you know, I've emotionally eaten my whole life. I have three children. I'm a stay-at-home mom and I put everybody first. And her habits were so deeply ingrained and she was obese, her muscle tissue wasn't there. She literally in the next decade was going to have Alzheimer's. And she had no idea what she's in store for or what her family was in store for. And at that moment, I knew that chasing body fat was the wrong thing to do. It was all about muscle as this metabolic organ. And if she had turned her attention to protect against that? Because it controls body composition. So, metabolically The the bigger the waistline, the smaller the brain. Why? What mechanistically is happening? Because it is very inflammatory. So, there is insulin receptors in the brain. You know, it can affect the blood the blood brain barrier. Insulin resistance in the body and insulin resistance in the brain. And one of the other things and and we'll talk about muscle, but the the the protein component affects satiety. So that overeating, that emotional eating your body is going to feed until it gets the protein that it needs. And that's that's something That's super interesting looking at cravings from that perspective. Yeah, and it's actually called the protein protein leverage hypothesis. Where and this is well maintained throughout species where they will feed. So you'll continue to eat and overeat and overeat if you're eating a low protein diet until you reach that protein need. For these satiety mechanisms to shut itself off. Very troubling. So now give me what does muscle do that interrupts that Why is it anti-inflammatory? Like if we look at what I just laid out is how we get too much insulin into the system, what's muscle's role in? So muscle is the largest site for glucose disposal. Glucose in and of itself is cytotoxic. It is really critical to get glucose out of the bloodstream and take it up. One of the ways, the largest site for disposal is actually muscle tissue. The more muscle you have, the more metabolically healthy it is, the more that it's actually utilizing nutrients appropriately. The more carbohydrate flexibility you actually have. So it's in and of itself protective. And we talked about when you when you contract it by secreting myokines it is anti-inflammatory. So if fat is the nemesis of muscle. Talk to me about what the muscles is secreting. Um this isn't uh interleukin 6 I'm familiar with only because of what's going on with coronavirus, so that sort of cytokine storms and stuff is that's become more um people are talking about it more. Uh, but the other stuff like what you just said, which I I couldn't even tell you what you just said. Um, what's that called again and why is it anti-inflammatory? So, the interleukin-6 is really the big one. That's what muscle is famous for. But when you think about muscle tissue as it relates to inflammation and obesity and really protecting Sarah, the story that I told you, if she had been able to get her tissue under control just mechanistically from getting her protein intake up, right? And making sure that that tissue was emptied. But because she was largely inactive, and you know, there's this this concept where when the muscle is full, everything starts filling back into the tissue. Or it just can't So, basically you have an increase. Remember there was this whole big discussion about branched-chain branched-chain amino acids cause diabetes. Because everyone with elevated glucose also had elevated branched-chain amino acids. I've never heard that before. Tell me more. There was some research that had come out where people had mistakenly said, well, those with elevated levels of branched-chain amino acids, it correlates to high level, you know, it correlates to diabetes. Branched-chain amino acids in the bloodstream. correct. And actually, that's absolutely true, but not for the reason people think. The reason it was true is because branched-chain amino acids are utilized by the muscle. Oh, let me guess. So, you're this is that backup mechanism, right? So, the branched-chain amino acids should be going into the muscle, but they're full What are they full with? They're full with glucose? No. Full of glucose, they're full of fat, they're full they're just full. They can't accept any more substrate. Because they're not being used. Exactly. Now we're on to some Now we're on to it. So, these diseases of obesity, these diseases of being over fat, they're not diseases of being over fat. They are diseases of impaired muscle. So, if you fix that muscle tissue, and that's through lifestyle, keeping inflammation low, keeping calories in check, and truly we are domesticated as a planet. Can we define fix? So, when we say fix, cuz if you had stopped shy of the word fixed, I would have said add more muscle, which is where I always expect you to go. Um is this a a game of quantity and quality? Primarily quality? Um These are great questions and I I don't think anybody knows the answer. And here's why. Because muscle is the most underappreciated organ. We have percentages of body fat that we know are not great. But we don't know I don't know what percent muscle mass you should be. You don't know what percent muscle mass I should be. And this is so important to understand because if we really truly want to help obesity, Alzheimer's, cardiovascular disease, it's really about optimizing muscle tissue and and nobody knows that answer. I would say from a professional opinion, quality and quantity matter. Of course, I'm not talking about in the extremes of, you know, a bodybuilder in the Olympia. Although that's incredibly healthy tissue, right? Can I tell you a secret? Here's something I would love to know. How does muscle mass correlate with um surviving coronavirus? I thought about that kind of early on and I thought, "Ooh, I do wonder." Well, if you think about it, the higher the muscle mass, the better the protection against all-cause mortality and morbidity. Just in general. People need to let that one sink in across all cause mortality. I agree. So, listen, if someone goes in they're on a vent or they're aging, I mean, what are the things that are going to be most important? Muscle tissue. You want to survive? You've got to be able to support your system. Yeah, man, it's crazy. Muscle, muscle, muscle. So, now let's talk about how do we get some muscle? So, obviously we need to eat, we need to get our leucine levels right, we need to eat a certain amount of protein, which I think you said roughly 1 g per lean body mass. That's the recommended amount. I actually that's what is would be considered in the literature. 1 g per pound lean muscle mass, and I would say that's a great starting point. I would say it should be 1 g per pound ideal body weight. Okay. So, lean lean muscle mass is very variable. bit of fat you're saying. Mhm. Yeah, sure. Whatever you want, as long as the calories are take me. I'm 180 lbs. What should I 180 g of protein. 180? Yes, sir. Okay. And then, you know, what's your caloric target? We would, you know, I would probably break up your protein meals in 50 g or so. Could you go over? Yeah. Would you have much metabolic benefit? No. So, 50 g of protein per meal, so 7 * you know, 6 would be 32 g, so I mean, brother, you're going to be eating a lot. Or if you didn't want to do that, you would have a lower dose of protein and then had to add in your branched-chain amino acids. So, that's one strategy. And then you asked about fats. So, fat is more, you know, for men I like to keep them a minimum of 80 g for hormone production. So, I would say a minimum of 80 g of fat, but again, this is all based on calories. And carbohydrates, take it or leave it. And I'll tell you what is more important is also as you age and we all become more mature, hate to admit that I'm aging, but we are. Is that you actually have to get that meal threshold right. So, you would be doing yourself a service by getting 50 g of protein per meal, because you're going to get a robust response for muscle protein synthesis and anabolic resistance. Mechanistically, the body becomes kind of um immune or desensitized to amino acids. So, you require more amino acids at one time to get the sensing more robust. And especially in aging, like in geriatric population, you need that sensing mechanism to be very robust, and that's where your amino acids come in. And getting that, you know, amount per meal correct, so you overcome this anabolic resistance. And to lead into resistance exercise, right? That is essential. And um there's a lot of questions or someone, you know, if someone is aging, there's some great work out there from McMaster University, and they say, you know, they've shown that it's not the heavy weight, it's the two fatigability and exhaustion. That's interesting. It is interesting that they would get the same benefit, because for a long time I said, go out and work as hard as you possibly can until you want to quit at least twice or throw up. And that may not be the the that may not be a overarching recommendation. So, really having a well-designed trained program, you know, planned out program is essential, and you'll respond quicker if you're under-trained or or de-trained, right? And then the more advanced you get, the less gains you're going to make, but resistance training is key. I've heard it said, and this makes a lot of sense to me, that um food are signaling molecules. And that's what I heard you just say, which is that Muscle is a nutrient-sensing organ. Right. So, the muscle is listening for the signal of the food that I eat to say, "Ah, cool. There is adequate amounts of protein available to me right now." And that turns something on. Yes. Exactly. Um and that would be the branch chain amino acids. As we age, the ability for that skeletal muscle to sense that decreases. Okay. So, Ryan, I know I'm derailing us a little bit here. Um but now going back to incomplete proteins like are found in cuz one of the things you take the most heat for um is, you know, saying, "Ah, some of the protein that you're going to get in vegetable matter isn't going to be as complete." So, which what you just said would predict, which is that if the muscle is looking it's sensing that signal and the signal comes in the form of branch chain amino acids and the branch chain amino acids from the vegetable matter keep me in some sub threshold where it doesn't click over into this. That It's not, you know, we use protein as a blanket term, but it's complex. You're looking at 20 different amino acids. It's not the protein that we need essentially, it's the amino acid requirements that we have. And skeletal muscle has very specific amino acid requirements. To do the turnover what is necessary. And to do turnover, to be able to maintain its structure, to be able to put on new muscle, to be able to maintain its health. This comes in the form of branch chain amino acids. As we age, the sensing mechanism of one of one of the branch chain amino acids, which we've talked about before, is leucine. That's sensing mechanism decreases. The way in which we which ultimately leads a less efficient turnover, leads to subsequent sarcopenia, a decrease in muscle function, muscle strength, muscle mass as we age by optimizing for protein intake, you know, specifically high quality protein, then just like you said High quality protein is typically what we think about animal-based proteins. Does it just have to be animal-based proteins? No, but these are hard fast in the literature. High quality protein is defined by amino acid content. It's not a negotiable nebulous concept. These are hard fast biological numbers. And each protein has very specific roles in the body. And specifically as we age and if you're thinking about famine and fasting, it's specifically as we age the branched-chain amino acids in particular leucine is required by skeletal muscle to begin that process. As we age this concept of anabolic resistance, meaning there's a decrease in efficiency, the body becomes know what's happening at the cellular level? Well, yeah. There's a decrease sensing of mTOR. Okay. And mTOR, um, which I understand vaguely enough to be dangerous, is uh, basically what has to happen for us to grow. Yes, it's mechanistic target of rapamycin. There's mTOR 1, mTOR 2. And it's in all cells? It's in all cells. It's a Will it happen differentially in different cells? And it's stimulated by different things in different cells. And in muscle Like what? Well, I'm going to tell you. Break it down. Can't wait. In muscle it's exquisitely sensitive to leucine. In areas like pancreas or liver, it's exquisitely sensitive to energy, extra calories. It's sensitive to insulin. Regardless of macronutrient? Well, arguably it would be more sensitive to insulin and glucose in say the liver or the pancreas. But skeletal muscle is exquisitely sensitive to amino acids. That's sensing mechanism decreases as we age. So then this brings me to this concept of longevity, which is very hot right now. People talk about longevity and there's this conversation of decreasing protein intake because that's going to help longevity. hypothesis? I have no idea. It's because the stimulation of mTOR. So they're worried about cancer? Yeah, they're worried about cancer. But if you were worried about cancer, and by the way, mTOR is signaled by exercise in skeletal muscle as well. So it's not an mTOR issue in muscle. Hello my friend. You know that I believe success requires you to see failure as the ultimate learning tool. Success requires you to be disciplined and gritty and to never ever quit on your dreams. I say all of that because one thing is certain, the road to achieving your goal is not smooth or linear. I wish it was, but it's not. It's going to be bumpy, sometimes scary. Some days you'll take two steps forward and slide 10 steps back. And that's why success also requires you to know how to pull yourself out of a rut and get unstuck fast. Life is short. You can't be messing around with your goals. You've got to make progress every single day. So I've pulled a class from Impact Theory University called how to get unstuck, which you can watch for free with the link on your screen or by clicking below. When you join me for that free preview of that workshop from Impact Theory University, I'm going to teach you my strategy for how to understand exactly where you need to be going, how to identify the obstacle that's blocking you, and the best way to make the most progress towards that goal and keep your momentum. All right, click that link and let's get to work. All right, I'll see you on the inside. But I I just want to to stay on this longevity topic of individuals saying you should reduce your dietary protein because of longevity, which that's probably the worst piece of advice I could ever give someone. Let's define longevity. What does that mean? Is it living from to 95? Or is it living to 95 and a half? And the question is do you want to be mobile and healthy, or do you want to be frail and sarcopenic? If we believe in the hypothesis of anabolic resistance, which arguably we should, this is well documented in the literature, you look at my mentor's work, Dr. Donald Layman or Stu Phillips, any of these guys, Van Loon, you know, this is a well-documented phenomenon that as we age, our capacity to generate, heal, keep muscle goes down. So, I just told you about the sensing mechanism, and that we actually require more dietary protein. Really, we require high-quality protein because we require that amino acid stimulus. So, if you now further reduce dietary protein from aging individuals, and aging can start in your 30s, how are you going to then stimulate tissue? You have to be very careful about how you want to age and this concept of longevity. Longevity for a C. elegans or a fruit fly doesn't take into account the complexity as a human human aging. Is that where they're drawing that from? these are not human studies. You're not looking at randomized controlled trials, you're not looking at good high-quality data to support a reduction in dietary protein. And as a trained geriatrician, no geriatrician says, "Hey, Study old people. Yes. You You need to reduce your dietary protein. We know that skeletal muscle protects against disease, it protects against morbidity, it protects against mortality. Muscle is an organ system. It's an endocrine organ system. When you contract it, it secretes myokines. These myokines, you know, the the most studied myokine is interleukin-6. Goes throughout the body. It affects bone. It affects liver. It affects nutrient partitioning. What group do we put interleukin-6? Is that considered immune response? It So, in it is an immune response when it's released from macrophages. It is a myokine when it's released from skeletal muscle. is. You You and I talked about this last time. I don't I still don't have my head myo So, this is This is actually a newer science and this really comes from the work of Patterson and she has essentially paved the way. She's an immunologist and internal medicine. And what a myokine is, it's a protein released from contracting skeletal muscle. And when we are deconditioned and when we are not training, you don't secrete interleukin. Interleukin-6. do once it's in the bloodstream? What does There's There's thousands of them, which is interesting. Of different kinds? Interleukin-6, decorin, irisin. There's thousands. Again, this is new emerging science and arguably what we should be studying. I'm starting to look at blood levels post-exercise in my patients. Right? And this just goes back to a broken obesity model, which we know you're not over fat. We know everyone is under muscled, right? When we are talking about the general population, you know, typically people don't have a good solid founda- foundational muscular base. They don't. And this idea that we would further reduce dietary protein is going to have a much more negative effect and the Here's another question. Do you think there are problems with So, cuz I'm trying to get to Muscle, obviously hugely important. I couldn't agree more with that. Just that makes so much sense to me. The question is what And maybe it doesn't even matter, but which is more important, the the muscle or the fat? So, for instance, there is somebody in my life who is lovely, lovely human. They're really [ __ ] strong, like really strong, but they're also morbidly obese. And so, what is the muscle going to protect them enough from the obesity? And the story I've always told myself is that because he has such a massive surplus of calories and so much of it is insulin-secreting that he's in a growth phase all the time. mTOR is just kicking off like crazy. But he's also eating too many calories. The muscle can only do so much. At some point a point at which the muscle just can't carry the burden of your diet. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I and I when I think about insulin, I think about when I think about carbohydrates, I think about it in a meal threshold, not in this 24-hour period, but carbohydrates are okay. Just got to make sure that you are not overextending yourself in terms of a meal per meal basis. Let's say someone has really, really healthy muscle, but they're over-consuming calories, they're not going to have a chance. There has to be some you know, there has to be some balance. But these issues start in skeletal muscle first, and I think that that's very misunderstood. Everybody is focusing on adiposity, everybody is focusing on insulin resistance, and if you care about root causes, you have to care about skeletal muscle. So, that's where it feels like it's maybe complicated. So, um if if this guy who has a ton of muscle can still end up having the problem, it feels like muscle is necessary but not sufficient. You have to both have muscle and a diet that isn't overwhelming your system. Yes, it is necessary but not sufficient. I love the way you put that. And wouldn't it be great to see this guy lose some fat, adipose tissue? And I think that that would make a lot of sense. You say that he has a lot of muscle, but what individuals that we see when we see MRIs or we see CAT scans, there's fat infiltration into skeletal muscle. Skeletal muscle becomes marbled. You know, there's no free lunch or no free pass. If you struggle with obesity, it's not just limited to visceral fat. It does get into the organ. It does get into skeletal muscle. This ultimately affects this this cycle. It ultimately affects your ability to manage, you know, glucose. It affects your ability to manage substrates. It affects the health of the muscle. You know, we talked a little bit about myokines and you know, the big the biggest most famous myokine is interleukin-6. And when you contract skeletal muscle, it actually does this whole body crosstalk where it can lower some inflammation throughout the whole body, right? So, exercise is in and of itself, I don't want to say anti-inflammatory because oftentimes the process of exercise does create free radicals. You know, there's this you know, these these concepts like you said are very complex. Yeah. It's not just this way and that way and I think that we try to over simplify it. But to the best of our ability, there are some fundamental things that are important to understand. And that is we have to address skeletal muscle. You must. Get your muscle. And while I I understand that it makes people afraid, it doesn't mean that it's true. Fear can be validated, but it doesn't have to be true. That's a really we could derail this entire episode around that sentence. But I I I I I what's happening is that we're not having transparent conversations. Mhm. And this is really what I'm fighting for. Because of dogma, you're saying. of dogma. It is Now, I've been I've been in this space for 20 years. 10 years ago, this was not a conversation. The sort of ethical thing. Animal cruelty, ethical kind of a a conversation. Bad the planet. It wasn't it wasn't that way. And what's happening is that at the very heart is this anti-animal dogma. And there's nothing wrong with not wanting to eat animals and there's nothing wrong with not wanting to harm animals. Okay? I I can appreciate that. But what's happened now is there's not transparency around it. So this whole conversation then goes to what how can we get people to stop utilizing animal products? Well, we're going to scare them. We're going to generate so much fear. We're going to put out fake educational documentaries. We're going to completely obliterate the science. or sinister? It's sinister. It's it's totally conscious. The people at the top, it's totally conscious. And then what's happening is then it's getting into um you know, it's then training physicians and then it's affecting influencers that are then going ahead and talking about longevity and reducing protein. And they believe they're saying the right thing. They're not. They believe they're saying the right thing for the body or for the planet? the body. But they're not understanding that at the very heart of that is is actually coming from an anti-animal narrative. And what's happening is there's no transparency in the data. And our expectation is now to lower the quality of evidence to be able to say, "Well, no. Plant and animal protein are the same." No, they're not. Last 20 years, this has not been a conversation. of branched-chain amino acids. Or any amino acid. And there's this whole argument about it. Now it's So now then it's the longevity piece. Reduce protein because it's going to affect your longevity. Longevity defined as what? Six months? And also have you that were the case, let's say that plant uh based proteins actually did make you live for an extra six months. What kind of muscle mass would you have? Would it Would it Yeah, but if if it seems to me that if it actually makes you live 6 months longer, that's worth talking about. But But we don't know that to be the case. Right. I mean, like I said, a fruit fly isn't the same. And you know, I've taken care of people more than I can count at end of life. That last 6 months is brutal. So, are you saying that what I'm trying to understand cuz the analogy you always use is that what? It gives you 6 more months? If it does, I think we have to talk about that. But is your hypothesis that that data is flawed? You're looking at the wrong animals. In humans, based on It's about the quality of life. Okay. And at the end of life that like maybe it doesn't It's possible. live longer. It's possible. I mean, again even going to argue that. Who cares about that? Now, let's talk about quality. You know, I'm never going to say, "Okay, well, you know, these are things that are highly complex. Is it possible?" Maybe. But let's say let's say, "Okay, that's possible." Towards the end of life, you want to be mobile. You don't want to have a broken hip and be spend the last 6 months in a nursing home bedridden. Or you don't want to spend your time in an Alzheimer's ward. These things are related to skeletal muscle. Alzheimer's as well. There's a metabolic component to Alzheimer's. It's type 2 diabetes of the brain. If you care about Alzheimer's, you have to care about Real fast, connect muscle to metabolic disease for me. Exactly what's going on. Okay. Skeletal muscle is your primary site for glucose glucose disposal. And I use the term disposal to get it out of the bloodstream. Anything to get it out of the bloodstream. Or So, right? So, when you think about skeletal muscle, you have to think about glucose utilization or disposal. You have to think about fatty acid oxidation. Skeletal muscle. Healthy muscle stabilizing blood glucose, which you've seen. So, I don't get too much insulin secreted, so I don't get insulin resistant. that's more of a dietary thing, right? So when you have too high of a glucose load, you're going to get a subsequent insulin response. Right? That that is what happens. So skeletal muscle for all these ways in which it can help dispose of nutrients is really what we're thinking about when you think about metabolic syndrome. Ultimately, it is a intake issue. And I think that you Meaning I could control it through my diet. You could, but you still want to have healthy skeletal muscle for all the other things. No doubt, and it gives me a lot more flexibility in my diet. Gives you flexibility, gives you, you know, there's mitochondria, gives you a lot of positives. Okay. So now coming back to the longevity piece, we've got people and um I'll be generous and say they really really have amazing intentions. They want to protect animals, they want to protect the planet. So then you just say that. that it's better for us yet, right? Cuz the science is you can't now animal protection is different than planet protection. And I think that we just have to be really clear. Animal protection is animal protection. All the other lines of narrative really go back to animal protection because the data doesn't support that, you know, it's just that these cows are now killing the environment, right? That's not true. You know, if we look at the US, it's greenhouse gases, industry, transportation, and electricity. 50% of our fruits are flown in. 25% of our vegetables are flown in. So that it can't be so convoluted. It has to be I think there just has to be transparent conversations. When you talk about longevity, I think we have to define longevity, and we have to have these health conversations of what are the end points that we're going to be looking at. And when you say define longevity, I think it your debate is maybe longevity isn't the right question, it's quality of life is the right question. and I agree with I yes. And I you know, I was thinking before I was coming here, you know, what is a different word that we can use because people talk about longevity, which is just the span of life, you know, and then there's terms thrown around like health span. I think it really is about quality of life and it can't necessarily be And a big part and I agree with this, but so if I'm putting inappropriate words in your mouth, just tell me, but a big part of quality of life for you is really strength. Yeah, of course. And we know that to be true, not just my personal opinion. I think a lot of people don't really think about strength. They will when it starts to decrease. When you can no longer lift something up to put it in your overhead bin when you're flying or you can It's crazy how as you get older, that's like the most dangerous thing you're going to do is walk around. But if you listen to the current narrative, that is going to be inevitable. And that's very scary. You know, this idea that we should not focus on skeletal muscle and continue to try to address obesity is a broken paradigm. We are focusing on the wrong tissue. Obesity is not the problem. It is not the root cause. It's skeletal muscle as a root cause. And diet, yes? Well, yeah. But they the two kind of go hand in hand, right? Cuz because you can deal with more bad diet if you have more muscle. Yes, but you also have to nail diet for a quality of life going forward. Partly because I have this um sensing organ that is waiting for a certain amount and kind of protein. lot of energy. When I say energy, I mean both physical, mental, and food-wise energy to maintain. It is not easy to put on muscle. You know, Facts. I mean, I listen to Alan Aragon, he's amazing. He would be amazing to have a conversation with. You know, I was asking him about how much muscle could someone put on in a year. And if you are totally untrained, you might get 12 lb, maybe 12, maybe 24 lb. That would be outrageous. 24 lb is astounding. You would look so different. But that would be outrageous, right? This is like at the absolute upper level that, you know, we don't really see happen. But the reality is it takes so much energy and effort. Again, I use those terms kind of interchangeably to actually put on tissue. What's so cool about this organ system is that we can actually add to it. And I like to think about it as we add to it, we add to our life. All right. This is so powerful. Give people in like just one a quick couple sentences the thing they should be doing, whether it's diet, working out, whatever. So that Let's start with resistance training. You have to train hard. Whether, you know, volume is what's what is what is important, but you have to get the volume in and you have to get the stress in. The body thrives under stress. There's this concept of we should have less stress, we should No. Your body requires physical stress. After you get that physical stress, you know, whether you're doing high-intensity interval training, you need to you need to train, you know, resistance training, you need to strength train, and you need to do aerobic training. You do. And you probably need to work harder than you think you're working. I think you've said you need to feel like giving up at least twice and about to vomit. And people will argue with me and say, "Oh, no, that's not true." Well, okay, but as you age, the tissue it becomes more and more difficult to respond to. And number two, you have to account for your changing hormonal milieu. The body is changing, whether we want to believe it or not. When we are younger, we are driven by hormones. When we are older, older, 30s, 40s, we are now no longer driven by hormones. We are now driven by dietary sensing mechanisms. You have to account for dietary protein. You have to. Yes, you have to account for carbohydrates. Yes, you worry about insulin. Yes, you worry about fat. Yes, I do worry about total calories, but you have to get the foundational piece right up front. And that is high-quality training is a non-negotiable. And number two, high-quality proteins. Right now, everybody focuses on adiposity, being over fat. There's the constant struggle against bulge. But that's the wrong way of thinking. It's not about being over fat. That is just the by-product of being under muscle. So, the true way to fix everything is optimizing muscle tissue and really changing the paradigm of thinking. It's not about being over fat, which is why it hasn't worked. It truly is from a metabolic perspective, about being under muscle. So, talk to me a little bit about um when we look at what it means to be optimized for muscle mass. I get why being obese um is wildly problematic. Um fat itself is an organ. It's a sign It signals to the rest of the body. It's pro-inflammatory. Um it can hurt joints just in terms of being too much weight. One, why hasn't focusing on that worked? And then two, why is muscle the answer um to the problem? Yeah, certainly. Well, it's kind of like what you focus on, you get more of. And by constantly focusing on the pathology of adipose tissue, it's the wrong perspective. And I think that that's largely what's wrong with the Western medicine approach. It's constantly chasing the outside pathology as opposed to really Yeah, it's it's a And when you do that, you're constantly chasing your tail. But really, it's truly an issue of muscle tissue. So, defects and issues with the muscle actually happen first. Adiposity is secondary. And how I really like to think about it is it's like a suitcase. Stuffing, you know, a whole bunch of stuff into a suitcase, which would be carbohydrates or glycogen, and really overpacking it, and then having things spill back out. And that's exactly And then when it spills back out, that's when you get fat. All right. So, I had an employee who used to be an Olympic-level swimmer, and when he detailed what he ate, I was like, "Bro, you are going to die so soon. This is crazy. How are you not morbidly obese?" He was like eating French fries and chicken nuggets from McDonald's, and eating something like 12,000 calories. I could be a little off, but it was so absurdly high that I was like, "This is insane." And he was quite lean. So, is the hypothesis, the reason that he was lean, that he's using his muscles so much, and he's in a state of burning the carbohydrates at such a ridiculously high level that he's sort of unable to put on the fat because the muscles are essentially taking care of it? And that's a really good framework to think about it. There That would be multifactorial. Certainly, the amount of output that he has with all that activity, he's utilizing a ton of carbohydrates. Because he's a carbohydrate-adapted athlete, as opposed to say someone who eats less carbohydrates and more fat. So, the reason he didn't get fat was probably, number one, he was young. His hormones were good. Right? High testosterone. And he was putting in so many hours that he was utilizing everything. So, people have, I think, a high-level understanding of their three macronutrients, and they probably have heard things like um carbohydrates cause you to store fat and water, um that the muscles burn um glucose like at at that level. Um but my question is where it begins to get fuzzy for people is like what's happening when you use your muscle? Like muscle mass, even just having it, is going to be protective, is going to allow you to consume more calories without putting on adipose tissue. So, I think explaining to people maybe the function of muscle as an organ um would be really helpful. Oh, my pleasure. Probably my favorite topic. So, muscle as your metabolic currency, it is largely responsible for your resting metabolic rate, which is really essentially the calories that you burn at rest. It is one of the largest sites for glucose disposal, which is exactly what you were talking about. Whatever the Twinkie diet he was on was being utilized by the muscle tissue. And another component of skeletal muscle is that it's a site of fatty acid oxidation. So, we hear a lot about high cholesterol. Well, actually muscle is so metabolically active, that's one of the fuels that it uses. So, truly the three components of muscle as a metabolic organ are number one, resting metabolic rate. It determines everything about what you're doing. Muscle mass is incredibly unique in multiple different ways. You know, really not just as locomotion, which I think in our 20s, we all think about muscle as locomotion and looking good in a bikini or mankini, whatever you choose. But really the the true essence and the true benefits of muscle are far beyond that. Just as its ability to utilize calories, utilize energy. And you know, of course, we have to get into the topic of the importance of high-quality protein, which I'm I'm that we'll talk about. But muscle in and of itself is so interesting. It's actually an endocrine organ. So, when you contract it, it secretes things. It secretes proteins. One of these proteins are called you know, this group of proteins is essentially called myokines. So, it's responsible for all those things that I mentioned, the resting metabolic rate, the glucose disposal, fatty acid oxidation, but also interestingly, just as you had pointed out the fat adipose tissue being an organ, which is the nemesis of muscle, right? It's the nemesis of muscle. Muscle in itself, when you contract it, also secretes things. These myokines go throughout the body and are anti-inflammatory. Things like interleukin 6, BDNF for brain function. It's just multi There's just There's many, many. So, BDNF is is something brain-derived neurotrophic factor, if I'm getting that right. So, that's the People have referred to it as sort of a feel-good chemical. So, you talked about muscle as an endocrine system. For anybody that's not familiar with endocrinology, that's basically hormones. So, um is that what triggers the release of BDNF is the actual contraction of the muscle? I mean, it's certainly part of it, yes. And especially now, when you think about that balance of inflammation, muscle also releases interleukin 6, which people always think of, you know, as the cytokine storm as this interleukin that causes all these damaging things down the line, but truly muscle as an organ secreting interleukin 6 actually has an anti-inflammatory effect. So, walk me through then when my my tissues are at rest, um the the metabolic rate is that the tissues are what repairing themselves? Like, how does that They're just very active. They're turning over, you know, they have mitochondria. It's just an active tissue. They break down protein, you know, build new protein. It's just this kind of balance between an anabolic catabolic effect continuously turning over. Okay, so anabolic being building muscle, catabolic being tearing it down. Um talk to me cuz because this is one of the things that ends up making muscles so critical for people to understand as they get older, more and more critical. You've talked about how muscle is basically a storage place for um amino acids. Um and I know that like if somebody gets severely burned, they almost can't take in enough amino acids. Um as you get older, if you get sick, muscle, if I'm not mistaken, muscle is one of the like most direct predictors of mortality. Yes, and morbidity. If you want to survive, the more muscle you have, the more likely you will survive. So what I'm assuming that's like a a form of catabolic where the body's like, "Yo, we've got a problem in in the immune system. We've got a problem within the case of burns trying to um replenish the tissues." So what is the body breaking the muscle down into? So it typically breaks it down to amino acids. So it's an amino acid reservoir. And those amino acids are utilized for fuels. And it's really a storage form and also uh you know, it goes there's other proteins in the body that may require it. But typically it's that amino acid reservoir. It's really interesting. So I've always, not always, but certainly in my once I became aware of what's really going on in nutrition in the body, um you recognize that fat has this incredible role to play, which as you can imagine us out foraging, hunting, and there's a period where you don't have any and it's a battery. It's essentially like, "Hey, mitochondria's going to need it for the process of generating ATP, which is the energy that actually keeps the cells alive and allows them to function." And then so you're like, "Whoa, it's actually really powerful in a context where we can't just overeat, overeat, overeat." You get why the ability to store fat is this incredibly powerful thing. So, I'm going to store basically potential energy. Um fantastic. Literally, you're you're the first person I'm aware of to talk about musculature as a storage mechanism as well and being able to store um many different things that the body ends up needing. Um why don't Wait, you don't want to do that. So, you don't want to rely on your store of amino acids. You don't You want to keep that muscle as healthy as you can for as long as you can. And that's really where this whole kind of question of dietary protein comes in. Because as we age and just really overall, there's only two ways to stimulate muscle mass. And that's I'm sure you know from the Quest days is dietary protein, right? That's essential. And then resistance training. But in society right now, we have we have really two fundamental issues. We have this fixation on obesity, and that is the pathology versus the cure, which is under muscle. So, that that's one venue. And then you have this dietary component where people are incredibly confused about optimizing protein. Protein is incredibly emotional for people. And it's really the key macronutrient for maintaining muscle mass and also helping with obesity, diabetes, Alzheimer's, cardiovascular disease. These are pathologies. These are metabolic pathologies that can be corrected by having healthy muscle tissue. Modern diet has introduced just a massive amount of glucose into the system. Our body has mechanisms or mechanism, we we will debate, uh for dealing with that once it gets inside the body. Those mechanisms are evolutionarily selected for, so they're advantageous, but it is a very complicated dance. I've recently um had uh a couple different people on the show talking at this the glucose issue and fat storage issue and insulin resistance from a really interesting angle. Um so I feel like I'm beginning to understand how by having these constantly elevated levels, we end up insulin resistant. We're not able to Right. get the glucose out of our bloodstream, which causes a whole host of downstream effects, which we call metabolic disease. Um okay. So, now we introduce your idea of muscle Yes. being the the organ of longevity and and it being a uh an organ that secretes hormones. Myokines, yep. K. So, the dance becomes I can control my intake through glucose You can control your insulin or you say just in general got it. through my diet. I can also though control my insulin response by you having muscle and using the life out of it because it will suck the glucose out of my bloodstream and burn it for fuel. I'm not sure what word. uh muscle skeletal muscle is responsible for 80 some percent of glucose disposal. Okay. Yep. Now, the final capstone to my thesis is it So, my thesis in a very um simple sentence is you are existing in this incredibly delicate balance between what you eat, Mhm. your insulin response to what you eat, and you the muscle that you carry, and how much you use it. Yes. And so, when I was first going through the things that you say about how critical muscle is, it begs the question that in a time of famine, muscle is actually dangerous because muscle needs this energy. It's going to burn energy, and so if my response to fructose is to essentially become pre-diabetic, and that's good because it causes me to store a tiny bit of fat, to cling to the fat that I have, and to store extra glucose in my bloodstream, and that's what get got us through the winter famines, then I was like, "Well, wait a second. If muscle is this hungry organ, then it would be problematic." And then I thought, "Well, that's exactly why we lose muscle so rapidly if we're not working out." When you think about and there's some interesting concepts here. So, the the idea that in famine, the body tries to protect itself, you're essentially talking about a highly Protect itself by staying alive. Yeah. Highly catabolic No fuel is coming in. There's basic energy needs that we have. Skeletal muscle is one. Turnover in skeletal muscle is not great. Let's say it's a couple grams a day. Meaning I can't use it as quickly as I can use fat. longer. Muscle turnover takes longer. So, the body goes through a And I want to push on that turnover. That word doesn't immediately click for me. we're going to talk about it because it also brings up this concept of longevity. Is it gluconeogenesis? Nope. It is the replacement of body proteins. It is the regeneration, the cleaning house, and the replacement of body proteins like liver goes through protein turnover. Intestines go through protein turnover. Bone. You know, like you said, there's a dance that's happening. was storing that in So, I'm let's stay in the context of famine if we can for a second. So, I don't have incoming nutrients or not very many. So, I'm breaking down my muscle to provide, in essence, in part, the body will use that those amino acids to protect your organs. Okay. So, that they can have their turnover of cells, the cells can die and be replenished with healthy healthy new cells. Right. That is a non-negotiable. And not for gluconeogenesis at all? Well, gluconeogenesis, the way in which I think about gluconeogenesis is branch chain amino acids or proteins in general can be utilized by the liver to go through a process of gluconeogenesis. And would that be happening in a period of famine or would I just completely shift over to ketone production? So over a period of time eventually you would shift over to ketone production. The body doesn't want to lose its skeletal muscle. Skeletal muscle is very important, but I will say it's something that the body would give up for the other organ systems. Let me ask this. So as somebody who works out very consistently, but if I even reduce my intensity, my muscle and and don't change my diet, my muscle mass will begin to dwindle. So my body is is responding and my hypothesis is that it's so afraid to carry more muscle than it needs that the second I don't need it, meaning I'm not putting it under that level of strain, it goes, "Cool, I'm getting rid of" No. I would I would I I would say that that is not a hypothesis I would go with. Cool. So let's take a 21-year-old since they are [ __ ] just primed, man. So on a Twinkie diet and they're just jacked and tan. I get it. So if they stop working out, can we not agree that they will lose muscle? Maybe not as fast as I will in my 40s, but they will lose muscle. I would say yes. And why do you think the body does that? I think that the body thrives under activity. And whether you take a human, whether you take an animal, if you essentially domesticate them and they are not training, they will lose muscle. And so I have a theory that that's the body the body is giving you a signal, which is these tissues are calorically expensive and it's dangerous to have anything that's calorically expensive. So, with some wiggle room, if I see nutrients or demand back off, then I'm going to shed those muscle tissues. But muscle we know is really, really important for longevity, for morbidity and mortality. Which is why you don't want to be in a famine or not using it. The I I I think uh another way to think about it is that yes, it is a metabolically expensive, energy-driven tissue. It is. And it takes a lot of effort and energy to maintain that tissue. But I don't think it's the body trying to get rid of it. I think under well-thought-out conditions training, increase in energy, increase in dietary protein, the body will do whatever it can to maintain that tissue. I do think it's interesting how you're phrasing it and how you're thinking about it that the body would be trying to get rid of it. But I I don't Because we have to I think we I am almost certain that you and I agree 100% on how important muscle is. Like I'll say my hypothesis includes the fact that uh if you want to survive for a long time, you better have good quality muscle on your body. Because if you're right that that's the store of these building blocks, then I want to make sure that I always have that and should I ever lose it that I immediately when that insult, whether it's the famine, a great illness, or something like that is gone, that I rebuild that muscle. So, if the nutrients stop coming in, the body goes, "Okay, whoa. Like this could Now that I have these very expensive tissues, I may need to prune them back." Even though I know, like, "Oh god, I don't want to do this. And I would really appreciate if you would Or wait, can I can I can I So or is it that because you're not getting enough nutrients the rest of your organs need to function? So having a high amount of skeletal muscle that can be then utilized for the protection and the utilization and energy for all the other organ systems is necessary. Yes. Now let's cuz without the brain, without the heart, without the liver, without the kidney it a problem in those tissues will have an immediate effect. Will the body pull from let's So we'll come back to the famine in a second. Um Which is not happening right now. It's not and that's a big part of the problem. But for people I think to really wrap their head around what's going on for a long time for a just an unimaginably long period of time there would be periods of massive food scarcity. And so understanding the dance becomes interesting to me. So stepping out of the famine for a second and going back into what you're saying. So organs are critical and the body's going to do whatever it needs to do to protect that. So when the nutrients are coming in will my I assume my body will preferentially choose to take the proteins, the whatever from what I eat versus from skeletal muscle. Yes. Yes. Okay. Right. So there are 20 amino acids, there are nine essential. You are going to eat those for you know, based on a lot of the current research. There is some other data out there that suggests that some of the gut microbiome may be able to scavenge for some of those essential amino acids, which is incredibly interesting. And how does it hand those off to us? As metabolites? Um well, these are proof-of-concepts right now and they're in rodent models. What is happening is what they believe is that when an individual is eating a very high fiber type more veget- vegetarian vegan diet that the gut microbiome can turn a bit into what like a ruminant would be. So, that is one way in which some people can be able to get some essential amino acids, but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole yet because it is still proof of concept, but I I do think it's very important. But, going back to what you said about muscle and going back to what you said about famine, I think it's an interesting concept in the way that in my mind the fittest, most muscular individual, the the people that have the most muscle are going to be able to survive. Because they're going to have more of let's talk about the myostatin gene. Okay. So, the myostatin gene And I have thought about this and I'm not sure what to think about that, so I have a guess. It's way less educated than yours, but it's nonetheless a guess. Uh so, for those that don't know what the myostatin gene is, the myostatin gene actually inhibits the creation of muscle. And if you break the myostatin gene, you get what they call double muscling. Where if you've ever seen a double muscled cow, it's crazy. They look they look like a bodybuilder. Yes. It's insane. Yes. And you get that some people hypothesize that basically some bodybuilders that get to like an elite elite elite level have a way less active myostatin gene. And that to me is another signal that the body is like, I want muscle, but I can't just slather it on. Like it's it's expensive tissue. it's a difficult process and it is we become forged by our training. We become forged. And when you say it's difficult, meaning meaning skeletal muscle is not an easy process to put on, right? The idea that we can just work out and put on skeletal muscle, people are different. This idea of being able to put on muscle in general, it takes effort and energy, meaning it takes physical energy. It also is an expensive nutrient process in the body, right? It requires a whole host of things to go right. It requires being able to trigger mTOR, subsequent muscle protein synthesis. You have to have the building blocks. You have to have the correct stimulation. Then you have to have muscle damage. Then you have to have rest. It's not necessarily an easy process. And the more well-trained you are, the more difficult it becomes to put on muscle. So, by, you know, for you to maintain your muscle mass, you probably put a lot of extra effort into doing that. And it becomes more difficult as we age because the skeletal muscle, you know, aging is a process. And when we age, things in general often times become more difficult. Building muscle is one of those things. The efficiency of being able to build muscle, muscle as a nutrient sensor, goes down. Its efficiency goes down. Insulin resistance in skeletal muscle goes up. Just part of normal aging, whether you're training or not. These are fundamental things that happen. Talk to me about the anabolic resistance. And and I'm looking at that in the context of um insulin resistance. Is it the same where I've given it too much of something and the body's like, "Yo, back off." No, but it's a that's an interesting thought process. As we age, the muscle becomes less efficient at utilizing protein. Muscle utilizes protein, obviously, for protein turnover and for muscle protein synthesis, which is so valuable. You know, and often times I talk about muscle as the end point and eating for muscle health. The reason, one of the reasons I talk about it is exactly for the reasons that you were talking about. If you can optimize for skeletal muscle, then the subsequent effects on the rest of the body, like being able to have proper tissue turnover for liver and intestines, all happen. So, if you reach that threshold for muscle, which you're absolutely right is a highly energy taking process, the rest of the body is gets what it needs. So, if you eat for high-quality muscle, you eat high-quality protein, you create high-quality muscle. So, are those two things just correlated and it's really the intake of the nutrients that matters? The intake of the nutrients absolutely matters. Absolutely matters. And when we age, anabolic resistance, which is really defined as the efficiency of protein, the efficiency of muscle to utilize and sense protein goes down. Skeletal muscle is a nutrient-sensing organ. When it gets enough of the amino acids, it goes through a process of protein turnover. I want you to to literally be grateful and appreciative and and nourish every good choice that you make and let go of the bad ones, because when we focus on that negative, when we just keep berating ourselves, we can't go anywhere. We're stuck.